In today's episode, Dr. Ayers discusses strategies with Pat Karol about influencing safety with authority. Safety Professionals need to develop these soft skills to help sell safety to the employees.
The Occupational Safety Leadership Podcast
Episode 162 - Pat Karol - Influencing Safety without Authority
Welcome to the Occupational Safety Leadership Podcast, episode number 162 with Pat Carroll. This is one that I've really been looking forward to. I know when I was just a young bald-faced boy, I really struggled with how do I influence the old-timers I hate to say. And now that I am an old-timer, I think I've picked up a lot of tips and tricks. And a lot of times it's been by trial and error. And I wish that I could say I had this magic recipe, and I just knew it all. But that was one of the reasons I wanted to have Pat here is just, let's just sit down and talk about strategies. And I think you have a lot more strategies that I do, Pat, so I'm going to do everything I can. I just ask a couple of questions and let you share everything with the audience out there. But before we get started, could you tell the folks just a little bit about yourself? Yeah, sure Dave, you know, I got into safety 30 years ago, right? Not knowing anything about safety. They just needed somebody who knew the operation and could write a complete sentence. And I qualified, right? So I got into safety and I, like so many people at the time, I got in after a severe accident. And so I knew why I was in safety. And so I was really, really motivated to learn safety. And so I've worked, I worked in the airline industry for a long time. I worked with the TSA, I worked in a food and facility services business. And I've learned a lot, came out of the operation. I feel like I'm a kind of a blue collar safety guy, right? I worked in the operation for 13 years. I did everything from operating a forklift to dumping lavatories on airplanes, right? So that's been my career, it's been a super rewarding career and I, third, I can't imagine doing anything else today. And it's really super exciting to be able to look back and see the impact I've had over my career. So, yeah, I think, I think that what you just said there really, really helps out with having that credibility is that folks know that not only do you know safety, but not that you were actually one of them, but you worked your way up. You did those really awful jobs that they do sometimes. So I think that really, really helps out there, really kind of break down, break down some barriers, you know, and just talk to folks, you know, I've never met anybody who wanted to get hurt, who wanted to do stuff wrong on purpose. That's a lot of bad decisions, there's some stress and anxiety. Everybody handles a boss a different way. So sometimes they just do it just to have the boss just shut up, you know, basically. So yeah, I think that really helps to break down those barriers. So let's discuss a couple of strategies that's really helped you over the years. Mm-hmm. Yeah, you know what? Bill Cardigan, his book, How to Win Friends and Influence People, probably said it best. He said, "Selling is about influencing somebody to do something you want them to do." And the only way to do that is find out what it is they want and show them how to get it. Or in our case, show them how safety can help them get what they want. Some of the best success I have had, it was when I found out what somebody wanted most. And you know what? There's things that we all want. We want to go home to our families and enjoy our families, our pets, our hobbies. But in a work environment, finding out what, for example, the director of HR wants most. And that leads me into a story where I had a lot of success, was I met with an HR director. And over a series of cups of coffee over a couple of weeks, I found out what she wanted most. And that was to improve employee engagement scores. And I thought, "Well, wait a second. You know what? I can help you with that." You know what? We can set up safety committees. We can provide training to supervisors. We can implement a safety recognition program. So a long story short, she built an employee engagement program largely around safety. And so it was a super win-win only because I just found out what she wanted most and showed her how safety could help her get that. So not only that, I created an ally. And that's another key point. You know, I hear this a lot from safety professionals, "Well, I'm just a one-man show. I can't do it all. I'm just putting out fires." Well, maybe so, but you need to go out and find allies because I had a mentor, in fact, my first mentor in safety taught me the ABC rule, allies build careers. And they help you get things done. And so... That is a great rule. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So when you're influencing through allies, they become your champion, right? They become... That informal leader becomes an extension of you. So not only did this HR director, not only did I help her with her problem, what she wanted most, she became a key ally for me at the executive level. So now she could go to the president and say, "Hey, guess what? I got this plan together and Pat's helping me do this and this and this and this and..." You mean Pat, the safety guy? Yeah. So that's two things, find out what people want the most, right? And that means you got to be a good conversationalist, right? You have to be more interested than interesting, you know, and find out what it is they want. And then second is who your allies out there, you know? And they exist at every level of the organization. And when you can get to know them well enough, share your vision for safety, you know what? That's a force multiplier, right? Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Because they can help you with the eyes, ears out there. They also control their pupils' time and budget. So that really helps out. That also helps you to help them to send that message up. There's nothing worth doing that we do to get hurt. There's just nothing worth it out there. Absolutely not. And you know what? There are people that I've never worked with a company, I've never worked within a company that there were not people out at every level of the organization from the front line, all the way up to the top that didn't have some passion or at least interest in safety. And all you've got to do is find those people and give them an opportunity to get involved. And especially with the new generations, Generation Z's coming into the workforce right now. They want jobs, they want opportunities to contribute to the greater good. And if you can position safety as the greater good at something that you're doing for the workforce, then you're going to create allies. And the allies help you get things done. Yeah. And I have seen that with a bunch of the younger folks, is that they're really into, I want to help out because it has a social benefit to it in some way, shape or form. So they've really been, really been into it. Let's see. What kind of strategies would you give to somebody who says, but my position is so far down at the org that I really don't have that authority out there. I really can't make people do this. So how do I get to those folks? You can't, yeah, it's about influencing without authority, right? And so too often we find ourselves in a position of trying to manage through edicts. And that just does not work. You know, one tactic I've learned to use over the, in fact, fairly recently over the past few years is stories, right? Everybody loves stories. We're wired for stories when we, and if you can wrap your message in a story to a front line level, it doesn't matter what level, if you can wrap your message in a story, they're going to remember it. They're going to, you know, and if it's an emotional story, emotions drive behaviors. If it's an emotional story and boy, and we've got a lot of those in the safety world, right? They're more likely not only to remember, but to take action, you know, so what is your message? I used to think that, you know, and especially as an operations supervisor and even as a young safety professional, I used to think, well, they got to know this and this and this reality is that you'll be lucky if they remember one thing. So what's that one message you want to start? Maybe find that one informal leader and have one key message you want to share with that informal leader and wrap that message in a story. Oh, man, you're going to be cooking with gas. You're going to, they're going to listen. And they'll even get to a point where they imagine themselves in that story. So that's a high impact, low cost tactic, tool call, whatever you want to, that we don't use very often. And I think even I'm still learning how to use that, that tool, you know, another tool that's a high impact, low cost tactic, tool is recognition. You know, you've got somebody, you're down on your, you know, safety is often I get it. It's often relegated to the lowest level of the organization. All right. So that means you're hopefully interacting with people hourly folks on the front line. You know what? When you catch them doing something right, recognize them, recognize them. I used to walk around with a, this was in my early days as a, as a safety analyst, right? I had a some buttons made up, a little small buttons made up and I had the circle of safety put on it. And it looked really pretty cool. It was trimmed in gold lapel button. And every time I saw somebody doing something right and it had to be specific, right? I walked up to them. I say, thank you for using fall protection. I would give them this lapel pin and right away, they put it right on their, on their lapel and man, and I can hear the conversations after that. Hey, where did you get that? Oh, I got it from the safety guy. Well, how do I get one? Well, I was using my fall protection on it. You know, so recognition is a super high impact, low cost tool that you can use to influence other people. Use recognition and recognition. I like how that you had mentioned like formal and the informal leaders. So that's one that I use a lot to go around and I'll see who's the person who's telling like a lot, a lot of jokes. Who's the person who has like a lot of people around them and I'm like, ah, so that's going to be that informal guy. So that's going to be the person that I can also talk to a lot to and influence. And I know that other people will listen to that person a lot too, you know, exactly. And you won't know who that person is unless you are out in the operation. You can't, you won't find those people sitting behind your desk. You've got to get out there and you have to make yourself, take the time, schedule it into your workday to get out there and talk to folks and you'll find out who that person is. Are you the last person you would ever suspect? Well, I have found that some people have a hard time with walking the walk in the floor because they feel they have so much to do that if they walk their floor and start asking questions, well, now they got double double that, you know. So I do see where some safety folks are a little bit hesitant about doing that. I found an awful lot of benefit in just getting out and talking to folks. Oh, yeah. Well, like gimbal walk, right? Understand, you're walking in their shoes and the, I mean, you got to understand people are 100 times more interested in themselves than they are you. So all you got to do is walk the floor and then ask them, you know, what kind of weekend did you have? What do you like? You know, and people like talking about their job, they like talking, maybe they like complaining about their job, too, but if you remember that and become a good listener and then all of a sudden, now you're connecting with them on a personal level, you know, and there's little things too. I mean, you have to be a good listener and that's, that's, that's easier said than done, but simply making eye contact, you make a personal connection, you face them, you have good posture, you show your, in your body that you're listening to them. And you know what, it might not happen overnight, but you know what, you're going to start to gain trust and man, you can't get out of the influence blocks without trust and if all you're doing is enforcing and, and, and enforcing edicts and regulations and talking about ocean this and that man, you're going to struggle building trust. And if you're not building trust, you're not going to influence everybody. So, so get the know them, you know, find out what it is they want most. And you know what, you're going to start building building allies and building trust. Yes, yes, yes. One thing that's really helped out me a awful lot is actually going back and circling circling back and talking to folks afterwards, somebody expresses a issue, a hazard, something that has to be addressed, sometimes you got to go back figure it out first, you just can't wing it and say, oh, we'll fix it or we can't or, you know, and then you go back and circle back to them, regardless of what the answer is, I'm amazed at how many people have, have, have said that they've talked about these suggestions and hazards and nobody has ever been able to answer. Are they going to fix it? Are they not going to fix it? Is it important? Is it not important? So just literally even, even, even if the answer is no, they're really super happy that somebody came back, you heard them, you took it serious, and then you came back and talked to them, you really built a very good ally then. They may not like that answer, but they, but they, but they know that they've been heard. Mm hmm. Exactly. Yeah. You'll gain respect. Um, and if you continue to fall, even like you said, even if they, if it's not the answer they want to hear, you followed up with them, you know, right, right, right, right. Right. Yes. Yes. So strategies that you can kind of think from your, your 30 years, and of course it's, it's, it's easy to sit down when you have a scenario, but just kind of other strategies that you can think of. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Well, you think about Dave, you think about, um, characteristics of good leaders know they, they lead with empathy, humility, determination. They're also enthusiastic and passionate and they know where they're going. So even, I mean, if you're passionate about, I mean, we'd like to be around people like that. So think about those leadership characteristics. And by the way, smiling is a leadership characteristic. Yes. And you know, you know, and also think about this, and this, this comes out of the sales profession, right? People don't necessarily buy something based on the features. They buy whether they like the salesperson. Yes. Exactly. Yes. Exactly. So, so if you're approaching somebody with enthusiasm, with passion, with a smile on your face, and you know what, and they start, and you, and you're interested, truly interested in them, and you get to know them and, and, and you know what, they're going to like you. They're, they won't be able to help but like you, right? And now also now you, you're in a position to start influencing. So, so think about leadership characteristics, passion, enthusiasm, you know, and you think about what kind of people you like to be around, right? Oh, yes. Exactly. Uh huh. Yes. Yes. There's, there's nothing worse than being, than being with somebody who's super just down and negative. And well, we have to do it because the boss says, well, that's not always a really good, a really good answer. You want to do it because you want to do it, of course, obviously not because you're forced to do something. Yeah. Exactly. And you know what, I'll share one more little tidbit, and it took me a long time to learn this. I quit carrying a clipboard with me, where if I'm going outside, because right away they assume, oh, you know, he's, he's taking notes, he's writing down what, you know, it's finding stuff that's wrong and what I'm doing wrong, and I've stopped doing that, you know. And so I, I'll have my phone if I can take a picture to, you know, prop my memory that I'll do that, but I don't carry anything like that with me anymore. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So the one thing that I just started to do, I, I got, I got out of the habit, but my very first boss had said to me that everybody knows the answer, you know, so, and he would always carry a little three, three by five little index card, and he'd say to somebody, so you write the, you write the problem in a hazard on one side and then write the answer there on the other. And just about everybody would do it and give it back to him and he'd say, see, you know how to solve it. That's a good idea. I don't know. I'm gonna borrow that. Yeah. Yeah. So I did that for a couple of years, and then I got out of that habit, and I just started it all again, you know, and it really works out good because a lot of people feel that, you know, they bring stuff up, sometimes they're told, you know, hey, it's not your job. You just do what you've been told, or they've been beaten down, and sometimes they're dragging it in from their personal life and had nothing to do with work, but they've just been told that, you know, your input is not important, you know, or the actions because people have never gotten back to them. But when you tell somebody, you now know how to fix it, go fix it, that really helps out folks to kind of really feel like, yeah, like, I can do it. I don't have to ask for permission. I know how to do it now. No, no. Exactly. Well, and you're recognizing their expertise too, and when you recognize their expertise and you ask for their input, that's a form of recognition, you know, and that goes a long way. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Yes, exactly. So, Pat, we are having a great talk, but we are bumping, are bumping up on time. So let's take a couple of minutes, and if you could tell people how to go back, find your connect and all that great stuff. Sure, glad to. So my website is www.carrelsafety, and I'll spell it for you. It's K-A-R-O-L, like Christmas Carol only with a K, Carolsafety.com. My email is PatJCarrel@carrelsafety.com. You do a search for me, you'll find me, I'm active in ASP, I'm there as well. And that's how you can also, a lot of the things I've learned I've shared in my book, Selling Safety, Lessons from a Former Frontline Supervisor that's available on Amazon, or it's also available through my website and the Publisher CRC Press. So there were some tidbits there to help you today that you might consider checking out my book, a lot more in the book as well. Fantastic, Pat. Thank you so much. Okay, episode number 162 is complete with PatCarrel. Thank you so much, Pat. It was really great to have you on. I didn't get through a lot of the questions that I was after, so I think I'll be asking you to do part two in the future. Fantastic, Dave. Love chatting with you. All right. Thank you, Pat. You have a great day, but see you. OK, you too, Dave. Thanks.
In today’s episode, Dr. Ayers discusses strategies with Pat Karol about influencing safety with authority. Safety Professionals need to develop these soft skills to help sell safety to the employees.