The Jordan Syatt Podcast

The TRUTH about Organic Food, How to Eat and Workout "Intuitively," Eating Slowly is Overrated, Training My Puppy, and More...

In this episode of The Jordan Syatt Mini-Podcast, I shoot the breeze with my podcast producer, Tony and we discuss:

- Things I used to believe (but don't anymore)

- The truth about organic food

- How to eat and workout "intuitively"

- Eating slowly is overrated

- Training my puppy

- Why personal training is harder than most people think

- And more...

Listen to my episode about when I trained at Westside Barbell HERE: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-jordan-syatt-mini-podcast/id1348856817?i=1000475435823

Do you have any questions you want us to discuss on the podcast? Give Tony a follow and shoot him a DM on InstagramHERE: https://www.instagram.com/tone_reverie/

I hope you enjoy this episode and, if you do, please leave a review on iTunes (huge thank you to everyone who has written one so far).

Finally, if you've been thinking about joining The Inner Circle but haven't yet... we have hundreds of home and bodyweight workouts for you and you can get them all HERE: https://www.sfinnercircle.com/

Duration:: 1h 20m
Broadcast on:: 04 Aug 2024
Audio Format:: mp3

(upbeat music) - And Roland. - What is your word of the day, Antonio? - Oh shit. - You forgot, dude. You forgot. And the last way you had mi croffo, mi croffo, no. - Mi croffo, no. - Mi croffo, no. - So I'll just say, or vidars, eh? - With. - Say it again. - Ol vidars, eh. - Ol vidars, eh. - Ol vidars, eh, okay. - And that means to forget. - Oh, okay. To forget, I like that. That's very in the moment right now. Ol vidars, eh. Was that like, is that you saying, is that to forget, like the, or like I forgot? - So it's, I guess my grammar's bad, but I guess it's reflexive, right? So instead of being like, it's like passive. So instead of being like, I forgot, it's almost like saying like, the forgottenness has happened to me, 'cause it's like, I'm not the one doing it. So like, same way though. So normally you would say like, to do something like, I said, you would say like, yo, ago. Like, I do this. - Okay. - But if I were to say, I forgot something, I would say, se me, oribido, which is like, it happened to me, that I forgot. - Okay, interesting. - So yeah, weird difference in the Spanish language. - Interesting. - Okay, okay, I like that. So in Hebrew, I forgot is, shahakti. - Shahakti. - Shahakti. - Shahakti. - Yeah, yeah, there you go. - You gotta do the, on the beginning and the end, that's shahakti. - Shahakti. - Oh man, dude, that's good. I like that. I like starting the podcast with that. I think that's, someone actually messaged me being like, dude, your Spanish pronunciation is very good. - It is very good, yeah. - Yeah, no, this is really good. - That's cool. So I always wonder like, all right, how many of these have gone out yet? But I am curious-- - I think just one. I think we just wanted, yeah. - As these episodes come out, like let me know if people are responding to this segment in particular, I'm really curious what-- - If people like this segment, if you like this segment, please just DM Tony. His Instagram is in the show notes. Shoot him a message and just say like, "Hey, this segment is fun." Or, "I just wish you would get to the point faster and not do this stupid segment." Just let us know. But also, brings up a great point. If you haven't left a five star review yet on the podcast, please do it. Please go leave a five star review. And the written reviews are the most, most, most helpful because they encourage other people who are scrolling through and not sure if the podcasts were listening to if they should listen or not. So it really does help. If you've been enjoying it, it would really mean the world to both of us. - Nice. - Okay, and you can't say shakti, I forgot, because we're reminding you right now. So, okay, go do it. Oh, see, look at that. Look at that. (laughs) Malofaphone. - Oh, wow. Dude, that's good. - Trying to remember. - That was very good. - So, yeah, you've been good this week. You training Jiu Jitsu, what's going on? - Yeah, it trained Jiu Jitsu yesterday. That's good. Jiu Jitsu, at this point in my life, is something I'm just doing for, I enjoy it, but it's more just for maintenance of the skill. I'm doing it two times a week, and it's great. But, in my training, I'm just super passionate about the flexibility stuff. I'm just, I'm having so much fun with that. I'm having more fun with my training now than I've had in like 10 years. No, no, 10 years is too long. I retired from powerlifting at 24. I just turned 33, so like eight or nine years. This is the most fun I've had with my own training. So, like, actual strength conditioning flexibility, and that Jiu Jitsu was, I was like obsessed with it for four years, and I still really love it, but in terms of actual gym style training, this is the most fun I've had in like nine years, which is just, it's a blast. - So, to what do you attribute that? Like, what is it specifically about this training? - I think it's very clear to me now why I'm enjoying it so much, and I say now because a younger me wouldn't have recognized why it's so fun. The reason powerlifting was so fun for me is because after a certain point, I was like, wow, I can make huge amounts of progress far beyond what I ever thought I could ever do. And then I reached a point in powerlifting where making that progress was no longer as fun or as exciting, it wasn't happening as quickly. And, you know, you get to the point where you deadlift 530 pounds weighing 132 pounds, and it's like, okay, I'm just not really enjoying this process anymore, even just putting, even just my deadlift sessions, just the deadlift part would take 45 minutes 'cause loading and unloading all the plates, like it took a long frickin' time. So, then it got to a point after many years where I was like, yeah, it's just not fun for me anymore. The flexibility stuff, I'm just making so much progress. And it's just, I'm doing something I never thought I would be able to do. I never thought my flexibility would be able to get this good, especially not this quickly. From December to May, I'm almost in a complete front split. I'm literally like inches away. It's unbelievable. And so I think for me, the majority of the enjoyment comes from, oh, wow, like I can do this and I'm seeing the progress. And I think that's why many people fall in love with strength training 'cause they don't realize how strong they can actually become. The other part is as a coach and as like a nerd of science, because I never really thought much about this, I never really dedicated much time studying it. And now I'm just really going in on studying and learning and it's just fun. It's fun for me to learn the science of it. It's fun for me to learn the different modalities. I'm really enjoying the process of making progress and learning why I'm making progress and how to make that progress more efficient and better. So, I'm just, I'm really enjoying it. - Dude, that's awesome. I gotta go back and listen to your episode about mobility and flexibility training. Was that with a coach? - That was with my coach for it. I wanna do more. His name is Lucas Hardy, Rage of Strength. He's an absolute genius. He is, he's so smart. I don't even think he knows like how ridiculously smart he is where sometimes I think he speaks in a way that's very technical and can be somewhat difficult to break down if you don't have prior experience in the industry. I think I'll do more podcasts and break it down a little bit more basically. But yeah, that was a good episode for sure. And his information on social media, "Arrange of Strength" is fantastic. But yeah, he's fantastic and that episode does, it really, it does go into a lot of the science, like a little bit more in depth than I think a lot of people care about to be honest. But if you're interested in it, then-- - Oh yeah, yeah, awesome, awesome. I'll throw the link up in case people haven't listened to it yet. - I think one area that generally in the fitness industry, people struggle with as a coaches is when they're trying to reach a general population, I think many coaches struggle to merge the science with the practical application. And the practical application is where I think people who are not well versed in the science, that's where they learn the best. It's like, okay, so I'm hearing you say this is what happens to your Golgi tendon, but like, okay, when I'm in the gym, what the fuck do I actually do? Like, what do I actually need to focus on? I think it's a difficult merger for, I think most coaches to actually come to it, having the practical application. - Yeah, there's a tension there because like some people really like to know the why behind it and that motivates them, right? And some people don't. - Yeah, they'll just tell me what to do. I don't care. Just tell me what to do and I'll do it. - Yeah. - How's your mobility? - Oh man, terrible, terrible. - What's like the worst part of your mobility? Like if you had to pick one, like, is it your hips, your hamstrings, your back, like your shoulders, where is the worst part? - That's actually a really good question. 'Cause it kind of points out just how not in tune with that, I am. In the past, I felt like I always had like tight hips, like the typical stuff, right? Like tight hips, tight T-spine. - Mm, dude, T-spine for sure. - And actually, in my defense, my mobility got a lot better. Like kind of halfway through my training journey, I discovered Pilates' network and stuff. And for me, that was a game changer 'cause I just felt like I was way more in tune with different parts of my body and angles and things. And then I would roll up to a yoga class and suddenly I could do a bunch of stuff that I could never do when I was just doing like powerlifting stuff. So it was kind of like a what the hell effect for me. So I still have some of that, but I haven't been training it like at all. - Yeah, that makes sense. - So I gotta listen to your podcast. We're gonna talk about it more. I gotta see what I'm missing. - What have you been training lately? Just more strength stuff? - So man, I've been doing what I would call like GPP. - Yeah. - And it's-- - General physical preparedness. - Yeah, and I've been just totally intuitive. I'm not following a program at all. And there's a lot of cons to that. But for me right now with like just what I'm juggling, it's like if I get in and I get something done for 45 minutes, I feel happy. So like I've got my, I pulled out some implements that I hadn't used in a really long time. I've got an easy curl bar on the floor right there and have like a bigger kettlebell. I've got a 70 pound sand bag. And I'll just do like halos and carries and pushups with the bar at different angles. And like a lot of like for my PT, I've been doing a lot of like RDLs, single leg, RDLs, body weight squats or goblet squats. Like I'm not pushing a lot of weight, cool. But it feels really good. So I'm happy with what I'm doing right now. - There are pros and cons to everything. The most important is that you're moving and you're training. And like if you were at a point in your life, you're like, hey, making as much progress as I possibly can in terms of like a specific goal, whether it's strength or conditioning or mobility or muscle growth, whatever it is, then yeah, like you would want to get on a program. But if you're like, hey, dude, I just, I need to move, I need to get it in, I need to feel good. What you're doing is fantastic. So I think that's totally fine. - Yeah. And I feel like, you know, with a longer training history, you do kind of know the stuff that you tend to avoid. You do kind of know just how to be a little more balanced about it 'cause I feel like if I was taking this approach, you know, seven years ago, I'd probably be just doing like Bicep curls and like, you know, deadlifts and that would be it, you know? - Correct, correct, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - Maybe over the press 'cause I really like that. But, and then I'd have all these holes. So I feel like at least I'm a little more in tune with what I think I need. - Makes total sense. Yeah, I mean, you're in tune. You've done it for a while. You're educated on the topic. You have an idea of deficiencies and things that might be overlooked. Like you have much more knowledge than the average person who doesn't really know what they're doing and they don't know what each exercise targets or why they're doing it. Or even just having a concept of a balanced training program helps a lot. Just having a concept of that. Like what is a balanced program? Even having a concept of the mirror muscles versus the not mirror muscles like you are. So when you look in the mirror, that's what you see. But are you training the things that you don't see? Do you know why you should be training those? Do you know why it's important to do that? Do you know how to do that? You have so much knowledge that you probably take for granted. It's called the curse of knowledge where you forget what it's like to be a beginner. So your intuitive approach is actually based off of years and years and years and years of studying and learning so that now your intuition is based on education. It's not just like you woke up and you're like, I'm gonna intuitively train and think about like, okay, well, I know that I probably need to train my back and specifically my rhomboids and my lats. Like, that's not intuitive, that's from education. It's the same thing with when people talk about intuitive eating, yeah, I just want you to eat intuitively. It's like, if you eat intuitive, like let me, if you think that caveman or cavewoman was living in this time, they just boom, pop appeared and they ate intuitively, do you really think like if they're outside, they would, if they had the option between a salad and pizza, they would, do you really think they would choose? The set of intuitively, they're going for the pizza. In fact, intuitively it makes sense from the perspective of the smell, the taste, the caloric density is actually better from a survival perspective. Like when your intuition is, I just want to eat more and to save up in case of a famine type situation, intuitiveness is based on your education. So you can't intuitively eat successfully unless you have a background in education of what you actually need. - Yeah, did you ever watch a Futurama? - Dude, I could never get into it as a kid. I remember like, it was a big thing. I tried, I just couldn't do it. - Yeah, no, I have the same feeling. I was like, this isn't the Simpsons and it's weird to me, so I don't get it. I revisited it later, probably during the pandemic, actually, you had time to stream a bunch of stuff. But there's an episode where, anyways, this isn't that interesting, but there's an episode where the robot guy, Bender, - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - becomes an anatomical human. And he's like, oh my God, like food. (laughing) And so like within a matter of a couple of weeks, he like balloons up and like, he's just this party animal, like rager, like going for all the dopamine rushes he can get, and like within like two weeks, he like, keels over and expands. - That's so funny. - Oh my God. - Yeah, that's very real. Dude, isn't it crazy? It's already, it's, we're like halfway through 2024. Part of me feels like the pandemic. It's part of me still feels like it's the pandemic. It feels like it's still 2020. Part of me feels like it was a long time ago, like almost like a different life. Just even thinking about, especially at the beginning, when everything was shut down and you couldn't do anything, and like had all of this time to just do nothing, at least for me, I know like the healthcare workers and all of those other people, they did not have a similar experience. They had the exact opposite, but at least for me, and I would imagine you and for many people listening, it was just like, dude, that's crazy. That was a crazy time, huh? It was wild. I mean, I don't think, I'm not gonna win. I don't think we're gonna experience something quite like that again. - Who knows? (laughing) - Yeah, who knows, right? As the words are coming out of my mouth, I'm like, yeah, I don't know, man. But it will definitely affect, like, for example, it will affect how I parent without me even realizing it, for sure, you know? Like, you know, for example, we know people nowadays talk about the boomers, right? And how boomers were affected by their parents. Like every generation, their parents go through something that then their children will be like, oh yeah, well, my parents were this generation, so then they did this type of stuff. Like, guarantee our kids, grandkids, whatever, will be like, oh yeah, well, they were this generation, so they were alive during COVID, and that really made them, I had to wash my hands every seven minutes at my house type of a thing, or it's like, or on the other hand, be like, yeah, you know, they were alive during COVID, and you know, they were in the group that is like, this is gonna get, they were in the group that was like super anti-vaxx, so now I didn't get any vaccines, and the other group was like, well, my group was, my parents were super pro-vaxx, so I have every vaccine. It's gonna be very interesting to see how that plays out as time goes on. - Yeah, my grandparents on my dad's side were alive during the Great Depression, so I can imagine-- - Finish everything on your plate. - Yep, yep, there's like a plate of liver and broccoli, and you're gonna eat it, like all of it. - I don't care if you're full. You eat everything on your plate, yeah, dude, it's-- - I do that, I don't leave my, I don't know, it's probably not a good thing, but I don't leave my plate. - Even if you're full? - Even if I'm full, man, it's like a reflection-- - Is it just a habit? - Yeah, yeah. - Is it because of something your parents or grandparents instilled within you? Is it like a guilt out of knowing other people might not have the availability of that food? Like, what is it from? - Yeah, I think I internalize it as like a virtue on its own, like I was always told like, "Clean your plate." Like, that was like my dad's thing, so now I do it, I don't have to, he's not standing over my shoulder telling me to, so I don't know. - Do you want to continue doing that? Do you wanna stop doing that? Is that something that you care about changing the habit or not? - So fortunately, I feel really comfortable with food and my diet, so I'm not worried about it. I don't think it's destructive. Yeah, yeah. If anything, I want to like slow down when I eat. I eat really fast, so-- - Interesting, why do you want to slow down? - Just 'cause I feel like I would enjoy it more, like-- - Would you though, like, would you actually enjoy it more or would you be like, "I'd prefer to be eating this more fast?" (laughing) - Have you seen, there's this meme, this video, this reel that's been going around, and it's like this guy who's like, "I'm just gonna eat at the pace of my life." - These are the funniest videos. They're a number of people, dude, they are so funny. It's one of the greatest trends I've ever seen, and I want to do it in my life. It's amazing. - Yeah, I love that. I'm that guy, I'm like, done, and then she's still taking like two bites, and I'm like, "Wait, what?" (laughing) - Did you see the one where the wife did it to the guy? - No. - Oh my gosh, dude, and she was just shut. Like, I think they're having a burrito or something, and like, he just inhaled it. Like, I don't know, he didn't breathe. He didn't breathe, he just ate this whole thing, and bro, she had an entire burrito in her mouth, and he was like, "What are you doing?" (laughing) It was like a hazard to her health. Like, I thought she was gonna chill. (laughing) Bro, it was so, that was, I think, my favorite one, but the guy, the one, the guy, one of the guys was hilarious, 'cause he was just like... - Yeah, I just like... - He's like, "I just wanna fucking need you." (laughing) You know, it's funny, like, that's one of the things that I feel like has gotten a lot of attention over the years, of like, yeah, just eat more slowly, eat more slowly. And in my experience, not just with me, but as a coach, I've found that that is not something that tends to be actually as big of a deal as it's been made out to be the rate at which you eat. I feel like that's very much up to personal preference. It's very much what you enjoy, and what makes you personally feel good. I've found that that's not as big of a deal, and often when you try and switch it, it actually can create anxiety, and it reduces the enjoyment of the meal. So that's one thing where I use, I really went in on that for a while, going out on the research, I went out and, like, trying to figure it out, and it never, it actually, like, oftentimes trying to change the rate that someone eats, especially someone who eats very fast, not all the time, but often it's just discouraging for them because it's like, they don't enjoy it at all, and then they just end up eating faster anyway. And yeah, I've yet to find that that makes a significant noticeable difference in someone's level of hunger or level of success. What I do think is important is, regardless of the rate at which you eat your food, you have to wait before you get seconds. That, I think, is the most important thing, where if you eat fast, that's fine, but wait 20 minutes before you get more food, right? So that is where the whole purpose of eating slower is, like, hey, it takes a while to feel full, so that just take longer. It's like, or if you like to eat fast, eat fast, and just wait at least 15, 20 minutes before you decide, hey, I want more food, I think that is more realistic 'cause I'm a fast eater. I've always been a fast eater, and when I try and slow it down, it pisses me off. It's just like, this is really annoying. I just wanna eat what I have. And once it's off my plate and done, I'm good, I'm fine. But if I'm trying to eat more slowly, it's really annoying. - Yeah, no, I could see that. And it goes back to the satiability factor that you've been bringing up in other conversations. So like, focusing on satiability might be a better, or a useful tool that people have been ignoring versus just calories, or just macros, or just speed at which you eat whatever. - Yes, exactly, exactly. - So in terms of priorities, it's like integrity of the sandwich while you eat it up here, and then the speed down here, right? - Yes, yeah, it's exactly right. I like the way you framed that, that was good. Dude, I'm just, if anyone listening hasn't seen these videos, I would imagine googling husband tries to eat sandwich at same rate as wife would probably yield the videos we're talking about, it's hilarious. And my wife eats so slow. It's incredible, it's really extraordinary. And I don't know how she does it. It's really just, even before our daughter, and like, we'll both take turns feeding her, so it's not because she's prioritizing someone else, it's like, even when we were dating, not engaged, not married, the rate at which she eats is so unbelievably slow. I feel like it would make a very funny video, but whoever came up with that trend was genius. - Yeah, totally, totally. So I have an episode idea, we may want to call an audible, but I've got other plans if we do, but let me know. - Okay. - 'Cause we actually got a listener request to do an episode all about Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. - Mm, okay. - Now, when we open this conversation, you're like, yeah, I'm not so hot on it right now, I'm just kind of maintaining. So like, maybe we can shelve it for a time where you're more enthused about it, or we can power through and-- - Well, so I mean, I still love, love, love Jiu Jitsu, I still absolutely love it. Let's save it for another episode within the next month or so, where like, I'm just ready for it. Like today, it just hopped on and started shooting the shit. We can do a different episode today. But like, I'm still incredibly enthusiastic about it and still absolutely love it. That's something where I like, I'll just know from the beginning, hey, we're doing Jiu Jitsu today and stop just shooting the shit. Let's just get right into it. (laughing) - Okay, awesome, awesome. So you mentioned the Dunning Kruger effect in the context of BMI and how people know that the little information are drawing really big conclusions. And because the Dunning Kruger effect is so, I think, ubiquitous and relevant to all sorts of fitness endeavors, all sorts of diet, knowledge and that kind of thing, I thought it would be a really fun episode to, well, first let's define it for the listeners, but then kind of go through a bunch of times in your training career and identify when you were at the beginning of that curve and kind of further along on that curve and find some examples of each. 'Cause I think it would be really interesting to see what you thought you knew versus what you've learned later. - Yeah, oh dude, I have a great one and a very controversial one, especially based off of, yeah, this is great. So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna give the definition of Dunning Kruger that I remember and then I'll Google it and then we'll read it directly from Google, the Google machine. Generally speaking, the Dunning Kruger effect is the less you know about a certain topic, the more confident you are in your beliefs around that topic and the more you know about a topic, the less confident you are in your belief. So someone who knows very little about a complex topic is often very loud and very like, "This is right." And they're like, "This is the only way." And someone who knows much more about a given topic is like, "Well, there's a lot of nuance. Let's discuss this." Dun, which by the way, and not to get into it, but this is what we're seeing with the war in Israel and Gaza. All of the people who have never studied this before, especially not before October 7th, they've never been there. They couldn't point it on a map. They don't know where Rafa is on a map. They don't know where it is. They don't know who Gaza belonged to, went up along to different people. They don't know anything about the Israeli government how it works. They don't know anything about Hamas. They don't know anything about the West, but they don't know. They've just, ever since October 7th, they've started to be fed information on social media. They've become incredibly loud. And they think that they know exactly what they're talking about. And the reason I get messages, dude, I got a message yesterday, the day before. Someone, I swear to God, I can show you the message right now. It says, "You are complicit in the killing of children. I hope your whole family faces the karma that it deserves." Which is, dude, I get some really insane messages. So this is why it's always top of mind for me, but it's like, if you just started learning about this since October 7th, you are not an expert and you don't know as much as you think you know. Let's just leave it at that. And so if you think that you understand this and you are the personification of Dunning Kruger, where if you have a very, very strong opinion and you haven't spent much time studying this, that is Dunning Kruger right there. Where it's like, what books have you read on this topic? What full books? Have you read books from both sides? Have you traveled there? Have you spoken to both Israelis? Have you spoken to both Palestinians? I'm not saying how much TikTok videos did you see? Which Instagram rails did you see? Which books? Which people? Like, if you can't answer those questions, you are Dunning Kruger if you have a very, very, very, very strong one-sided opinion. If you're like, this side is right, this side is wrong, you're already fucked. Anyone who knows what they're talking about in this situation knows there's incredible nuance. And just because there's heart-wrenching, heart-breaking, horrific death and destruction on both sides doesn't negate that there's still nuance. So this is where Dunning Kruger comes into effect and in an area outside of fitness. Inside of fitness, going back to the fitness. You can see on your face where you're like, you're like, oh my God, he's going in on it. I'm just not going to say a fucking word. You're like, I'm just going to say nothing. - Well, I mean, Dunning Kruger, I don't feel like I have a ton of contribute on that. - Well, I mean, that's the thing is when you don't know what you don't know, that shows a level of like, you know what? This is not my area of expertise and I'm not going to say anything because I'm not educated on it. But either way, I think the first time that I was on the end of Dunning Kruger where I had very little knowledge but thought I had a lot of knowledge. I was in high school, I was probably 15 or 16. I had just started getting into the industry within the year before that or so. And I read like one book on organic foods and how important organic foods were. I read one book and all of a sudden I was like, everything needs to be organic. If I'm not eating organic, then I'm poisoning myself. I heard one book and I've spoken about this before how my family, we did not have much money. We grew up in a, it was very difficult money wise for us. And I was like pressuring my mom, like we need to get organic, like we need to get organic. This is one of my biggest regrets of my whole life. My mom was working as hard as she possibly could to provide for us and she just couldn't afford it. And I wanted organic everything, organic milk, organic meat, organic this, like everything. And she couldn't afford it. And that was like, and I was very vocally, very vocal about how it was poisoned and how it's bad and da-da-da. And then I started to actually research it, not just on my own, but when I went to university, took entire courses on it, started looking at the actual studies. It's so funny, dude, I've put up one or two posts in the last like 72 hours of recording this podcast about organic food and how it's not inherently better or safer and people lose their shit when I say that organic is not inherently better or safer. They get so, so mad. Literally one guy commented, he was like, brought to you by Monsanto. And I commented back 'cause basically he was inferring that I'm getting paid by Monsanto to say this. So I love doing this. I was like, I'll tell you what, buddy, I will pay for you to fly to my house, sit with me and comb through every single one of my financial statements. You can look through all of them. If you find one penny from Monsanto or any related organization, I will give you $500,000 in cash on the spot. But if you don't find anything, then you owe me $100,000 in cash. And his response was, he's like, dude, how can you just say that spraying foods with chemicals isn't bad for you? Which immediately lets me know that he doesn't know what organic actually means because organic foods also get sprayed with pesticides just so you know. And I don't know, I think I told you this, but there are people who message me who run these companies who will go and spray plants with chemicals, they'll get called from organic farms. Have I told you this? - No. - Dude, this is crazy. Every time I post about it, I get messages and they say, please don't share this because I run this business and it wouldn't be good. So please keep this between you and me in terms of my identity, but organic farms, not all of them, obviously. But this is, I've gotten this multiple times where pesticide spraying companies will get calls from organic farms, certified organic farms and say, can you please come at night and spray my crops with your pesticides because they're getting eaten up by all of the bugs and they're infested with bugs and I just need you to come spray them. They pay them double to do that in the middle of the night because the bugs and all everything is eating the crops and it's, it are infesting the crops. So even the ones that might be certified organic that might only be getting sprayed with their organic pesticides are often still being sprayed at the pesticides that you're saying or not being sprayed on them because they're doing it in secret. They're doing it when no one is watching. They're doing it because holy shit, they actually help keep these crops fresh and safe for you to consume. It's really incredible. And when you actually dive into the research and you really look at this, you understand it's not black and white, like with everything, there's nuance to it. There are some real issues and concerns that we need to take into consideration. But the demonization of these pesticides, just the blanket statement demonization of it is wrong. And keep in mind, I love a good conspiracy. I have my own conspiracies about different things. Like I love conspiracies. This is one where I'm like, oh no, this is actually for our benefit. Now keep in mind if we look at other countries or other nations, it's very different. For example, I'll talk about in Israel, Israel's the size of New Jersey. The entire country is the size of New Jersey. It's very easy for crops to be moved around the entire country, very fresh crops very quickly without having to worry as much about here in the United States when we have a massive fucking country that it takes much longer for this produce to make its way around the country to get to people all over the country. Like we have very different needs and people say, oh, well, they're poisoning us. They're like, no, they're not. They're actually doing it to help you get access to these foods. It's why they're doing it. So that I think is probably the biggest place that I ever had done in Kruger, especially in fitness. It also, for whatever it's worth, when I was smacked in the face with the truth and looking at the research and analyzing it, it was such a huge smack to me that it really knocked me off a pedestal that I had put myself on and helped prevent me from getting to that point again. It doesn't mean I haven't been there in the past. I've definitely been there in other places, but it hit me in the face so hard and made me regret so horribly how I acted as a teenager towards my mom and saying we need this organic food. That it gave me up a reference point to be like, don't come to conclusions so quickly about something that you really haven't studied. And this is where I think people watch TikTok videos, Instagram reels, they read a couple of articles online from one person and they think that they're an expert on it. It's like, nope, you really need to be very careful and you need to actively seek out the opposing opinions to what you currently believe if you really want a more well-rounded point of view. - So let me ask you this, what caused you to dive deeper into the research? - Actually, it started from a class that I took in college. I took a nutritional sciences class. It was one of the most interesting courses I took and I took many nutrition courses, but there was one course that I took in particular that dove into nutritional sciences that the professor was phenomenal. She was one of my favorite professors, unfortunately, I don't remember her name, which really sucks. She was phenomenal and she was going over all of the myths and facts of it and being in a science-based degree, we were learning how to read research, learning how to actually do this in combination with going to farms and actually speaking with the farmers, like going to organic farms, going to non-organic farms. That was like part of the class, going there, speaking to them. How does this work? In combination with reading the studies, learning about the difference between what organic farm and a non-organic farm does. What is the process of becoming an organic farm? What are the financial difficulties of doing that? People have no idea about... Listen, again, I think capitalism, it's not a perfect system in any way, shape or form, but I do think one of the great things about it is it does incentivize new things and the creation of new things and really people working as hard as they can to try and create better products and to help society. And again, there are many issues with it, but overall I think it's a wonderful system. One of the major drawbacks is that people will do a lot for money and if they can get more money out of it, then they'll do it. And if you think that, for example, organic isn't affected by that, then you're out of your fucking mind. (laughs) So much of it is marketing driven. So much of it is just based on what perception can we lead people to believe is the truth so that we can make more money out of it. The process of becoming a certified organic farm is insanely expensive and very difficult and a lot of locally owned and like family owned farms don't have the resources to do that and then they get the shaft. And a lot of these people who are saying, "Oh, we need to support local, we need to support local," but then they're saying, "Well, I'm only gonna eat organic and I'm not gonna buy for my local farm." It's like, you're actually hurting the local farmers. You're hurting the people who you say you want to support. It's really incredible. So I think it was the huge smack in the face from actually reading the research and going to the farms and studying it that helped me realize I had made a big mistake. - Yeah, well, good for you for changing your ways, right? In the face of new information. - I think generally the older you get, the more opportunities you have to become wiser. I don't necessarily think with age comes wisdom. I think more opportunities for wisdom comes. But regardless of age, whether it's 18 or 24 or 36 or 50, whatever it is, if you're not willing to look back and say, "Wow, I made some really big mistakes." And not only did I make big mistakes, but those mistakes are going to change how I act going forward and actually like, allow them to change you. You're making another huge mistake if you can't do that. You're not actually improving as an individual, which I think is a major, major thing that many people struggle with. - Yeah, yeah, totally. So at some point you started a powerlifting club and you really got into that. You started working on becoming a personal trainer. I imagine during those like kind of beginning phases of those two endeavors that there might have been something that you bought into Hookline and Sinker that later on maybe you came around to the other side of that coin. Do any examples come to mind in terms of like strength training? - Dude, absolutely, of course. I mean, for example, the two places that I interned, right in my first couple years of college, they interned at West Side Barbell, which we have at least one very in-depth episode. We can put that in the link in the show notes. If you don't know West Side Barbell, that's an OG episode. - That's an OG episode. The literal strongest gym in the world, their weakest guy that trained there, when I was there, aside from me, they squatted 800 pounds. That was the weakest guy there when I interned there. So if you wanna listen to that episode, strongly recommend it. The other gym was Cressy Sports Performance. Both two of the most famous and world-renowned and science-based and incredible facilities in the world. West Side is the strongest gym and the mecca for powerlifters and Cressy Sports Performance is one of the most well-known, if not the most well-known, baseball training performance facility in the world. They have players from every single major league baseball organization, and they do other things as well. They have professional boxers, soccer players, like everything you can imagine, but baseball is their main thing. And so, in both of those places, you have to remember unbelievably science-based. The West Side Barbell conjugate system completely changed the entire world, and Cressy's methods have changed the entire world. Now, the issue with me being, sort of being a consumer of these methods, and I'm trying to think of the right word. Like, you almost became like a young, but like, you almost become like a cult follower of these methods. And when I say you, I'm talking about me in this situation. Like, I absorb these methods, and it was like, oh, these are the methods. Like, this is just it for everyone in every situation. This is it. And yes, remember, I hindsight is 2020. West Side is a powerlifting gym. It's for powerlifters. And Cressy is a sports performance gym for high-level elite sports performance. Now, obviously, they have other people there. Even West Side has MMA fighters, and football players and stuff. And Cressy has other, like has everyday people, moms, and dads, and all that stuff as well. But again, looking at the majority of who they have, like the 80 to 90% of who they have. And I took these methods, which are incredibly effective science-based methods. And I was like, oh, this is just how everybody should train at all times. This is, and if someone doesn't train this way, then they're doing it wrong. And I absorbed that. And it wasn't because that's what they told me. It's because that's what I absorbed. That was my mistake. I was there. I saw everyone doing it. I saw the amazing results. They were getting towards their individual goals. And I was like, oh, this is just how everyone should train. And man, it really created a lot of issues for me. In some ways, issues, in some ways not. It created a great niche for me. That's sort of how I got into my niche of getting stronger and improving strength and performance. But I think one of the biggest issues that fortunately I corrected in the last five years was at that time, both of those gyms and in the fitness industry as a whole, cardio was demonized. Cardio was demonized, like in the strength world, cardio was looked at as like the worst thing you could do. You do cardio. - It's a waste of time and it was robbing your gains, right? - Waste of time and it's actually hurting you. It's not just like not worth it. It's actually harming you and harming you and preventing you from getting where you want to be. And man, I'm so glad that around five years ago or so I was like, oh, this isn't good. Like that is a very bad way to go about it. Like this definitely is the wrong message to be sending. But man, everyone in the industry, everyone in the strength world is saying it. There were entire books about it. There were entire phrases and shirts and everything about it. Like my cardio is lifting weights faster. Like, and just the active demonization of it. And so so much of my education was built around that. And it was, dude, it was so harmful. And some of the biggest proponents of that, and I have to clarify, I can't say this is why they died, but some of the biggest proponents of that died in their 40s and 50s from cardiac issues, right? It's like, I don't know if it was genetic, if it was going to happen anyway. But I was like, oh my gosh, people need to be doing cardio. Like this is, strength is not enough for longer living life. So I think being in those environments, these unbelievably world class elite facilities, it was very easy for anyone, not just a 21 year old kid, but for anyone to be like, oh, this is just the right way to train. And if you're not training this way, then you're stupid. And I absorbed that. I would walk into my college gym with my powerlifting team, and I would look at what everyone was doing. And I wasn't mean to anyone, but to my head, I was like, they don't know what they're doing. That's stupid, why would they do that? And I had this air of superiority in my head that like, what I'm doing is right, what everyone else is doing is wrong. And yeah, it was wrong. And fortunately, I wasn't vocal about it in terms of like, I wasn't like rude to people and I would never discourage people. But in my head, I was like, I know what's right, they don't, that was it. And it was like the silent Dunning Kruger. We're in my head, I was like, yeah, I know better, and you don't know. And same effect as Dunning Kruger is just in my head, I wasn't as vocal about it as I was with the organic stuff with my mom. - Yeah, this story reminds me of, so when I started like, strength training for real, like one of my buddies, I think he either got me the book or he told me to get the book, but it was starting strength. And I was just all about it, like Rippetto at that time. - He was everything, he was the king. - And he was so convincing. It was just like, this is my logical progression. This is why this method is the best and if you're not doing it, you're wasting time essentially. And I was just so bought into it. And so like, I was doing a starting strength program with my little squat rack in my living room, you know. And like, I gained 20 pounds and I had to buy all new clothes and like everyone noticed and it was like, it definitely felt like, you know, those newbie gains are awesome, right? - Yep. - And I remember one day in particular, I was working in an office at the time, and one of my coworkers also was lifting and he was like, we should, he was really like, we should go lift together. And he was definitely stronger than me. So I was like, yeah, go the awesome, let's go. And so we went, and I remember, what was it? I was like doing a deadlift or something and he was like, you should just like rip it off the floor. And he was doing the thing where you rip it off the floor and then kind of like, you don't drop it, but you essentially drop it on the way down. And I was like, you need to have like a controlled, you know, you need to put that weight down like, and he was like, why do you think that? Like why, what makes you believe? And I was like, I don't know, like rip a toe, like blah, blah, blah, and he was just like, what makes you like that method? Like why do you think it's, and like, no, I had never questioned like why am I so bought into this before? And like, I don't know, I made up some, some answer, whatever, but like it like stuck in my brain later. I was like, man, like why do I think this is the only way to do this? - Yes, that's so funny. You just explained a very important thing to be aware of when someone questions you, if you get defensive over it, but you can't articulate why you believe it, that's a really important moment to say, hmm, maybe there's another way. If you can't articulate-- - Or at least I should look into. - Yes, exactly, exactly. And I think a lot of people, myself included, do what you did, and you just make an answer up. No, well, because, you know, this, it's like, if your first move is to say someone's name, like, well, this person told me that, knowing that's an appeal to authority, knowing that that doesn't prove anything, just because someone else said it. And then from there, being like, okay, if I can't actually verbalize why specifically this is the right way, then there's a really good chance that there are other right ways too. One area, even right now, that, so I'm being trained in mobility and flexibility in one way right now. And I'm studying one way, which is a very strength-based way. It's a very strength-based methodology. I'm still strength training in these longer ranges of motion, these end ranges of my motion. There are other ways to do flexibility training. There are many, there are other ways to do it that don't involve what I'm doing at all. And fortunately, I'm now at a point where I'm like, oh, I'm sure those are very effective. I'm just studying this way right now. Whereas before it would be, this is the only way, this is the right way, this is it. But it's, I think the goal is to get to a point where you can do one method and it's simultaneously, you know, there are probably many other ways to achieve this exact same goal. Maybe I'm just not studying them right now. - Yeah, yeah. So that's actually a really great segue 'cause we've talked about things that you were very certain of that you kind of changed your mind about. - I'm curious what's an area maybe more recently that you're less and less certain about? - Well, I'll tell you the mobility stuff was something that like I, to be fair, I was never like certain on it. I'll give you an example of something I actually learned at Cressy that recently have been like, oh man, maybe that was just not true. So one thing that I remember Cressy would make articles on this and he knows this. I'm a huge fan of him and he's a major inspiration. I really, he changed my life for the better in so many ways. He's written many articles, made videos on how there's a certain stretch, it's called the sleeper stretch, which is for shoulder internal rotation about how it's a terrible stretch and you shouldn't do it. It's dangerous, you shouldn't do it, it's a bad stretch. There are many other ways to do it. - Is that the one like across the neck? - No, so it's not there, it's like you're lying on your side and you have your elbow, your tricep and elbow are on the ground and you essentially push your forearm down towards the ground. And if anyone, if you want to Google it, Google search sleeper stretch, you'll see exactly what it is. Him and one of his business partners and colleagues, they would write articles, make videos on how it's a terrible exercise, terrible stretch, you should never do it. And then, so my whole career, I've been like, oh no, just terrible stretch. And there were reasons and I could articulate the reasons and there are other exercises that could do better. But again, keep in mind, their population was and is elite high level baseball performance, oftentimes pitchers, not just, but oftentimes pitchers. So they're protecting multi-million dollar contracts with elite high level athletes. And there are probably ways, not probably, there are ways to achieve that shoulder and turn a rotation without doing that stretch. But I took that as nobody should ever do that stretch and that stretch is inherently bad and no one should do it. And now I'm diving more and this is like 10 years ago, over 10 years ago now, this is 12 years ago. My whole career, man, just don't do that stretch. Stupid, don't want it. And I had my reasons and I understood the science and the anatomy and physiology, but there's it, never questioned it. And now I'm doing mobility and I'm doing that stretch. And I remember the first time I saw it, I was like, oh no, I was like, oh man, why would this be in the program or why would this be here? That's just, that's a bad stretch. Literally now at 32, oh I'm 33 now, but at 32 when I first started this program, I was like, why would this be here? And I had to be like, okay, hold on. And I literally had to catch myself and be like, hmm, I'm gonna do this stretch that for the last decade, I have said is a bad stretch. And I did it and I was like, that feels so good. Like it was, I was like, that feels amazing. And so now is this just one example of where I'm like, hmm, like this is another huge learning curve for me where I'm like, great. What I've, another example of what I've thought and what I've been told isn't always the case. Shocker is not black and white. It's not, this is right, this is wrong. And now I'm studying the exercise and studying like all of these things I could have done for the last decade to realize, oh, it could actually be a good movement or a good stretch for some people. Studying it and I'm learning how to do it better and be more effective with it. So yeah, like definitely, this is one of the reasons I've been so excited with the mobility and flexibility stuff. It's like the clashing of this, what I've been taught my whole life is coming head to head with what I'm learning about right now and rather than me being upset about it, I'm excited, I'm like, this is great. I'm being proven wrong. I'm like, I was wrong, I was wrong. And what an amazing thing to find out because now I have all of these, I have another exercise in my toolbox. I have more tools, I have more opportunities to help other people with different goals and different things available to them. So it's funny, the more I find out I've been wrong, the more excited I get. - Yeah, well, I mean, 'cause it's like unlocking knowledge, right? - Yes. - It's like unlocking something that was out of reach before. - This is gonna sound stupid, I know it's not actually the case, but I could actually, it was as though I could feel neurons in my brain just lighting up and being like, oh my God, like life changing this unlocked a new pathway that I can go down. And like, I honestly think the dopamine hit from that, it got me more invested in mobility and flexibility. And this training was like, if I was wrong about that, then I could have been wrong about this and let's dive into all these things. Another, actually, another example from this training, I was like, and I've known, there's videos for me, I think I made a video in 2012, 2013, talking about how round-back deadlifts are not inherently bad. So I've known this, but Jefferson Curls, which are like a very round-back deadlift, in my mind, I was like, it's not an exercise you'd ever really want to challenge yourself with heavyweight because of, it's very round-back. Bro, I'm lifting Jefferson Curls fucking heavy right now. I just did my bodyweight for four reps the other day with a legit Jefferson Curl, which 10 years ago, I would have been like, you're out of your fucking mind, five years ago, I would have been like, and to be fair, I will never ever program that in the inner circle. I will never, in my entire career program, heavy Jefferson Curls in the inner circle, it is, the risk to reward is not there. It's not worth the danger. There is a much higher risk associated with it, but for me as an individual who's an expert in this field and knows my body, it's like, that's something that I'm just, it's worth the risk for me, and I understand how to listen to my body, I know intuitively, there are things that I have that the average individual doesn't. My opinion's on it changed from a me perspective and from an advanced Litzer perspective, not for the average person or the person who just wants to just be like a regular everyday person who might not have the experience that I have. So I'm not putting that in the inner circle, literally ever, but I will include progressions to it, and I'll include like maybe light body weight, or like literally just using your body weight, no x-ray or maybe very light dumbbells for a very advanced Lifter, but yeah, that's another example of the mobility stuff. There have been so many times with this mobility stuff that I've been proven wrong from my thoughts in previous years that I think that's one of the reasons why I'm enjoying it so much. - That's a great one, and I do wonder how many of these like firmly held beliefs about like red lines and training, like one that I think about a lot is like, knees never going over your toes for like other ones where like a, whether you should squat, as to grass or stop at 90 degrees, or I wonder if a lot of this is like, how do we distill this to the general population and keep it simple and give them a rule of thumb that can work for them? And then becomes this dogmatic like, oh no, you should never under any circumstances let your knees go over your toes or whatever it is. That's just an example that that's in my mind at the moment. - Yeah, it's really tough because even just with this Jefferson curl example or with the knees over toes example, whatever it is, even with the sleeper stretch example, because the sleeper stretch like, if you do it wrong, it's very easy to hurt yourself with it. If you do the Jefferson curl wrong, it's very easy to hurt yourself with it. So I understand where people come from because I've been there or coaches come from where it's like, just don't do this exercise because they say it's bad, it's just like you're gonna hurt yourself. When I actually think creating the fear around it might be worse than the exercise itself, but I understand why they're doing it. They're trying to protect you. They're trying to like, don't, I don't want you to do this because there is a significantly greater risk of injury. Not necessarily true with knees over toes. I think that's a gross misunderstanding. Like we put every time you walk up the stairs, knees over your toes every time you walk down stairs, every time you run knees over toes, like it's fine. But for something like a Jefferson curl or a sleeper stretch and definitely more for the Jefferson curl, you're just trying to avoid someone getting injured. And when we're talking to a general population of people who are not experts in this, who are not experts in their body, man, I'll tell you what, when I first started coaching people in person at 14, 15, 16, I'm very fortunate. My hand-eye coordination is very good. I've never had an issue with it. Like when someone, like I just look at someone and I can mimic the movement immediately. When you start coaching people, you realize the vast majority of people have no idea where their body is in space. They don't know where it is, how to move it. They have no clue. And so you have to be super careful when you're telling people what movements to do. Because while you might be able to do it, no problem as the coach or someone with a high level athletic ability, you're talking to the general population. Like there's a 98% chance they are going to mess it up. And so for thinking about that they're going to mess it up, we want to give them the safest movements possible that have the lowest possible risk of injury. So it makes total sense that like, I'm not giving the Jefferson curl in the inner circle. Absolutely not. Even though there could be phenomenal benefits for it, no fucking way. Because I know, even if I make the perfect video explaining exactly how to do it, it's the risk of injury is way too high for the vast majority of people. So I understand why these things happen and why coaches will demonize them and say, they're bad, I get it. And I don't really have a solution other than saying, I understand it. And also saying, I would like to educate people the right way to do it. But also the cautious side of me being like, but unless you really know what you're doing, please for the love of God, don't do this. You know what I mean? It's a very difficult balancing act that I don't know the answer to. - And I think it's kind of like a jiu-jitsu or something. You know, it's like at some point in someone's journey, they might feel it's worth the risk to go down a path where you're lifting heavy weight with a bent back or something, but know that it's a risk, right? - Yes, yep, yeah, yep. - And is it worth it to you? For me right now, it's worth it. And it's actually because I know how to do it properly, it's been helping me, it's been wonderful. Most people don't, most people don't know how to do, anything, they don't know how to walk right, they don't know how it's crazy, they don't know how to get up from the ground properly. They don't know how to fall properly. If there is one thing I could teach someone be how to fall properly. Like if I, looking at 50, 60, 70, 80-year-olds who literally die from a fall, if I could teach someone how to fall properly from a young age so that they could practice that every week, so that by the time they're 60, 70, 80, and they potentially have a fall, they just know exactly how to do it properly, that could save, that would be the thing I would start teaching kids, that's what I'm already teaching my daughter, how to fall, because she falls. I'm starting to teach her how to do it, like this is, people don't know how to do movements correctly, and so it's really, really, really important as a coach to, it's a tough balancing act, you're like, all right, am I gonna show this really advanced high level of movement, or am I gonna say you shouldn't do this, or are they even gonna listen to me when I explain the nuance of it? It's a tough one, it's a really tough one. - Yeah, my eyes got open to the value of experience and personal training when, done in Krueger, right, I was doing this strength training, and a couple of friends had asked, like, hey, can you show me how to do some stuff, like, I've seen you're working out a lot, like, can you, I was like, yeah, no problem, and I was like, I have an understanding of a squat and a hinge and a press and a pull, and so I was like, sure, no problem. So I was like, this is great, I'm gonna have them do, like, pushups and squats, bodyweight squats, or like, light gala squats, and like, we're gonna start really simple and basic, and it's gonna be great. I had no idea that, like, some people, a lot of people can't actually just get into a good squat position. - Most people. - Yeah. - Most, like, you had to teach them. - And I was at a loss at how to explain, like, oh, but like, like, try to put your knees out a little more, like, get your chest up, and I was like, I was trying to give these cues, and I had no idea how to even help with that, and yeah, that was like an immediate, like, oh yeah, you're not, you don't know what you're doing yet, dude. - Yes, yeah, dude. And that's where learning the right cues for every exercise that hit home with people, understanding the difference between internal cueing, external cueing, two very different things, and having three to six different cues for every single exercise, 'cause different cues will work for different people, it's, dude, it's, that, and that's why-- - Or it's not even a cue issue, it's like they have other mobility or strength deficiencies-- - Yeah. - Pretty low mobility strength. - I'm doing this correctly yet, yeah. - You know, one of the biggest ones that most people don't think about? I think the biggest one, especially with a squat, but with many exercises, is fear. - Mm. - When you're fearful that you're going to fall over, then you better believe your squat technique is gonna be fucked up, which is why, like, dude, when I was working with someone and I could, I started to tell, oh, this person is nervous, they're putting on a front right now, like, I did the mobility, like, I know they have the mobility for it, I would do one or two things. One, I would put a box underneath them. It's like, cool, you're not, hey, now squat to the box. Boom, immediately fixed, because they weren't scared, they were gonna fall in their ass anymore, or sometimes that wouldn't work. If I was in the middle of the gym with them, I'd be like, hey, come with me. We'd go into a back corner, or no one was watching, no one could see them, squat, boom, perfect. Because they were nervous that people were watching them. - Interesting, yeah. - And then, these are things that you only get as an in-person coach, and this is why I say, if you wanna be a coach, being an online coach will not help you be a better in-person coach, but being an in-person coach will help you be a better online coach. These are things that you cannot get as an online coach. You need to coach people in person to get the cues, to understanding, not just the physical side, but the mental emotional side. Even understanding clothing. I've seen clothing impact people's technique. In terms of maybe they're thinking about, oh shit, is this, if I'm bending over, is this falling out, or whatever like that? Or is the clothing too tight? Maybe I shouldn't have worn this. There's so many things that are going through people's heads. But you don't get this as an online coach. You need to coach people in person to get this, which is why the experience you had is so reminiscent of literally every single in-person coach their first day on the job. They're like, oh my gosh, this is much more difficult than I thought. - Yeah, yeah. So I've got one more question, and I think it's a hard question, so I'm excited to see what we come up with. Do you have time for one more? - You bet your ass I do. - So if you could think about any area, it doesn't have to be strength fitness, health fitness diet or anything, but any area where you feel like right now, you might actually be most at risk of done in Kruger. What do you think that might be? And again, I think this is a really hard one, so. - I would say, so here's what I'll say. Probably where I'm most at risk would be as a dog owner, because it's something that's brand new to me, and I've found a couple of people on social media and some books that I'm reading, and they all follow the same method. So it would make total sense that, oh, this is the method that you train dogs, right? And so I am very well aware of it, and I'm at a point in my life where I'm like, oh, no, I know there are definitely other methods to do this. I've gotten enough messages from people on social media to know that people think I'm doing it wrong, some people say I'm doing it exactly right, I know there are other methods, but that would be where I'm at most risk for it, would be as a dog owner in terms of training him, in terms of what's right, what's wrong. I mean, the good news is, I'm at a point where like, dude, I just, I don't know, I have no idea, and I'm okay saying I don't know. I also know that for every single thing that I do, there's probably another way to do it. And, but that would be where the greatest risk is, but I'm also not concerned that I'm going to fall into it 'cause for example, like I really tried to hold off on hiring a trainer because I wanted to do it myself. I wanted to like to try and learn. And dude, he's so good, man. He's just turned four months old as a recordingist. He knows sit, he knows stay, he knows come, he knows paw, he knows leave it, he knows dropping, he knows all of this stuff. But he will only do it for food. He will only do it for food. He's, he's, you know, just such a handsome, adorable, great golden retriever, he'll sit not for food, but anything else come, drop it, leave it, stay. Like he will only do it if he can see that I have treats. And if there are no treats, dude does not give a shit. And so we were like, you know what? And for whatever it's worth, he's only four months. So I don't know, maybe that's normal. Like I just gotta keep doing it, keep doing it, I gotta have treats on me at all time. This is what the dog trainers I've been following. So you have to have treats on, you have a fanny pack, keep it in your pocket, treats all the time. So it just gets used to it. But also I like hiring coaches. I like learning from someone who knows better than me. We did hire a trainer. We got a trainer one time early on, like right, like the day after we got him. Dude, I just had a bad feeling. I just had a gut feeling that it was a really bad, they had bad advice. She had very good reviews online. So we're like, yeah, let's give her a shot. Dude, she said some really stuff that I just didn't like. For example, like, yeah, if he does something that you don't like, dude, it hurts my heart to even say that she was like, have a bottle filled with vinegar and spray him with the vinegar. And I was just like, maybe I'm a wuss. I don't know, that just didn't seem right to me to spray him with vinegar. And she was like, 'cause he'll smell it and he won't like the smell and did it. And so after she left, you know, I paid her and I was like, my wife and I were like, we don't like anything she said. Like there's nothing and it just didn't sit right with us that like that. So we were like, you know what? Let's just try and do it ourselves. I've been training him every day and he's been doing so well, but he only does it for food. So I was like, I just want to get. So we found another trainer that does not do the vinegar thing that is much more like, I forget the name of the style of training. There are different types of training. There's some that are, I'm gonna use the wrong words and the dog people are gonna be pissed at me. There's some type of training that is much more like force based and another type of training that's more like positive reinforcement based, which is what I'm trying to do with the treats is be like, hey, you do it good? Yeah, here's the treat. It's not about forcing him to do anything. It's not about, it's just about like, hey, like, you and you do it right. I'm gonna give you a positive reinforcement to try and teach that. That's what I'm trying to do. And this is what this trainer is that we're hiring now. But yeah, that would be where the greatest risk is. But I also know I just, I know literally nothing. So, but here's where the danger comes in. I know I know nothing right now. After the trainer comes, see some success, start to say, oh, this is the right way, cool. That's when the really the risk of done and crew comes in when you learn just enough to think you know everything. That's where the greatest risk would be. Good answer, good answer. Yeah. Have you heard anything about intermittent reinforcement? Is that something that people do with pets? 'Cause I remember in psych 101, like with Pavlov and stuff, it was like, if you reinforce every time, supposedly it's less effective than if you reinforce. Sometimes, but not others. 'Cause then you know what? Yeah, they just expect it every single time. Yeah, I mean, so I've done that not deliberately, but like I don't always have treats on me. So like, dude, he's potty trained already. It's amazing. He doesn't pee inside, he doesn't poop. And like he, and that was from that. But so sometimes we'll go out and sometimes like give him a treat after he peeves or proves and sometimes I won't. I have not done that with sit, stay, come, leave it, drop it. Like I'm just, I've tried doing it, but if I don't have treats, it just doesn't work. What if you have like treats with and you didn't? You didn't actually give it to him every time. That, Tony, you're good. Dude, you're good. Wow. Okay, all right. Dude. I don't know, I'm not such a simple fix. Do you have a dog? No. No. I remember that. Yeah, when I was a kid, we had a dog. My dad had German shepherds at his job. That's a great dog. Yeah, awesome dogs. Did you have a German Shepherd too? It was like a German Shepherd, Akiba. Is it Akiba? No, the real, those really big, I think they're like Japanese, but it was like half German Shepherd, half Akiba, something, it was huge. It was like, it was like a giant, it was like a dire wolf of a German Shepherd. I love German shepherds. They're amazing dogs. Yeah, super loyal, super smart. Yeah, the one, the older one, his name was King. And then like, my dad would get like these rescues basically. They would be kind of the guard dogs at the site. And so King was the older one. And I remember, I was like a little kid, I was probably like, I don't know, six years old or something, maybe a little older than that. And I remember to get to like his office trailer, I would have to like walk past all the guard dogs. And the puppies were like really excitable and they were big to me and they were yelling and barking. And you know, I was scared and like King could see I was scared. So he just like walked up in between us to like put his body in between us and me and the other dogs. And like I like shepherded them to the side and let me walk by in and out. So like everything would come out, you would do that. That's amazing. Yeah, that's amazing. Did you love King, you loved him? Yeah, yeah, but I like had a cat mostly grown up. So I was like, think of myself as a cat person, but like, yeah, now you're saying that. I'm like, man, what a good dog, good boy. Dude German Shepherd, there's a, they're an amazing dog. They're really, I love those dogs. I really do. Yeah. Dude, what did your dad do that you had guard dogs? Why did he have guard dogs? What was he guarding? So basically he has like a company and it does, we call it like tree recycling, but basically people would dump all the trees that they cut down and all of like the topsoil and stuff. And he would process it and then resell it as a saleable product. So wood chips, mulch, firewood for like home and for barbecue spots, topsoil compost. So it's basically like a processing site. I love that. Or organic, like the garden material. Just the office, like there's cash through a lot of people paid cash and stuff. Oh, got it, got it, got it. Okay. Yeah. It's on the south side of Chicago. So, you know, not always, not always the safest environments, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dude, that's amazing. That was his business. He started that business. Still is, yeah. He still does that. Yeah. What a beast. I want to meet you, dad. That's amazing. I love that. What a beast. That business raised me, man. Is there like a certain smell that you have associated with it? Like, is there a smell like dirt? Yeah, like a mulchy, dirty smell, yeah. He would come back from work and like you'd smell it on him. So one thing actually, this is like so off topic, but anyway, so I would go there and work all over the summers and like winter breaks and everything. And it was like hard manual labor, you know? You're like outside. And the main thing I was doing was like splitting firewood and then delivering it. So you have this like hydraulic axe basically and like you have a foot pedal and it comes down and boom splits the logs. And it was a really physical job. It was cool. But I just remember the smells of the different hardwoods. And I remember like Honey Locust smelled really different from oak and like Maple didn't really have a strong scent to it. And so like I could smell like a recently split piece of wood and like know what type of powder it was. Yeah, that's so cool. Isn't that crazy? Like smell is so tied into memory and nostalgia. It's really interesting. Can you still do that? Can you still like smell wood and know exactly what it is? People look at me like I'm crazy. Sometimes I'll pick up a piece of firewood. (laughing) But if it's not fresh, the scent, you know. I could just see you doing that in a store just like picking up wooden or like a wooden shelf and you're just smelling it and people like excuse me. There's a man in aisle seven just smelling stuff. So you've got a Weber grill, right? Yeah, dude, I love it. So you're using coal, right? Yeah. You could get like a bag of mesquite or something down there and cook with that. And it's the smell of the wood. Yeah, and it's the smell of the wood or even add it in, you know? But it's a smell, that smell is like the same stuff that comes out with the smoke. You know, that's the humidity in that. The sap or whatever else. I don't know exactly what it is. But based on the smell of the wood, like I could tell like, oh, this would be really good for barbecue. So you think I should get mesquite? I mean, you're down in Texas, so I think that's what you guys have. Like we don't have it in the Midwest. Okay, okay. I never cooked with it. But I think you guys have like hickory and mesquite and those are supposed to be like good barbecue wood because they have like an interesting flavor. They add a flavor to the food. Dude, I'm gonna do that. I'm gonna do that this week. We've been, we've been growing like two to three times a week. I'm gonna get that this week and let you know how it goes. That's genius. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you got to come down here. I know. I know. So the framing for the house is up. The framing for the house. Yeah, the framing for the house is up. And man, I think, I don't know if we spoke about it on the podcast. I think maybe we spoke about it when we stopped recording, but like when the house is up, like you're gonna come down, we're gonna get the podcast studio all set up. And I wanna start doing, 'cause what I wanna do is I wanna start doing podcasts, not just on the podcast we have now, but also on YouTube. And-- So you get the video set up, right? Get the video set up. Yeah. And I wanna do like every week have, and I'll have Mitch, the videographer, he'll come and he'll be there as well. But like every week have like one or two times where I'll invite someone and they'll come on the podcast. And like it'll be, and it doesn't have to be fitness stuff. It could be, but it could be other stuff as well. And like really make that, I think a huge part of what we do. So it'd be fun to have you come down, stay at the house, we'll grill-- Yeah, set it up. And set everything up, that'd be really fun. Dope, yeah. So hopefully within the next, I don't know when that would be, but hopefully within the next six months or so maybe, if everything goes well. Wow. Yeah, my experiences, whatever the contractors tell you, like-- Double it. Yeah, yeah. Unfortunately, I know. I know. It sucks. Yeah. But anyway, bro, I gotta go. I love you. I appreciate you. Thank you to everyone listening. If you have not left a five-star review and a written review, please, please, please do that. It really helps a lot because it shows people that it is a good show worth listening to. So thank you very much. Have a wonderful week. We'll talk to you soon. 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