RiYL

Episode 660: Dent May

The Ukulele was a gimmick, as Dent May is the first to admit. It did the trick on the Mississippi-born musician's second album, The Good Feeling Music of Dent May & His Magnificent Ukulele. The LP -- his first for the Animal Collective-run Paw Tracks -- established May as a musical force. These days he continues his hunt for the perfect pop song. Nowhere has he come closer than on this year's What's for Breakfast? Transcript available here.

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Duration:: 47m
Broadcast on:: 06 Jul 2024
Audio Format:: mp3

(upbeat music) There's this kind of, I don't want to say nutrient, but there's a lot of, I noticed, new bars popping up that are like based on this Japanese hi-fi concept where, you know, you kind of have, usually you have like a library of records on hand and a really great, you know, audio system or something. And so yeah, I'm doing the parties at places like that, and so yeah, I'm just gonna kind of DJ for a little bit, put the record on, hopefully people come to listen. I'll bring a box of records that if anybody wants to buy one from me directly. So yeah, I haven't done this before, so I don't really know what to expect. And then I'm doing one on Bandcamp. - Do you play your own music as your DJing? - I mean, I never do the only exception being at a listening party, I'll have to put the album on, but like, I do DJ quite a bit and I would never play my own music. - No, I'm sure, I'm sure, but there must be like a level of just like awkwardness to like standing there and playing your own music for other people. - Oh, it's, I mean, yeah, it's gonna be awkward when I put the album on, I think. You know, at these parties, I don't like love the idea of like listening with other people like, or really at this point, I've heard it so many times. I don't really want to listen to it at all, but I don't know, it's a cool idea. Hopefully I meet some people who like my music and it reminds people that the albums exist and it's coming out. - Occasionally I'll talk to somebody who like actually listens to their own music for fun and it just, it's kind of creepy. - That's like a psychopath. - Right? - Do not trust this person. Do not trust this person. - I had this thing for a long time at college where I couldn't, if I was making out with somebody, I couldn't have music by somebody I knew playing the background 'cause it was just two. - Oh yeah, I agree. Yeah, totally, very true. Yeah, I don't want to hear my music ever again. But I'm not like weird, I'm not weird about it. I don't, you know, it's fine. Just like a normal level of weird about it. - Exactly. - Do you, I mean, you have to, to a certain degree, like re-engage with some of the old stuff before you go and play it live, right? - Yeah, I have to remember how to play the songs and I've actually have been, for the first time, actually rehearsing, singing the songs along to the instrumentals. Just to kind of get my voice back in shape, I kind of find that my voice comes in and out of shape when I don't use it for a while. And so yeah, I have some work to do between now and the tour starting, like to actually remember how to play the songs 'cause, you know, I write them and record them kind of all in this one big frantic moment and never play them again for like a year or something like that. So it's gonna be kind of tough 'cause I'm not actually very good musician. - It makes sense, but that's something that I never considered that I know that people have to re-engage with the songs that they haven't played for a long time, but there's all this is like, like talking about weirdness. There's like, you're almost doing karaoke over your own voice. - Yeah, you mean the live, playing live in general? Or when I'm rehearsing? - Yeah, singing along to your own songs. - It is weird, I mean, yeah, it's kind of cool though. I mean, it is an excuse to kind of re-engage with the songs and there are moments when I'm like, all right, I'm proud of this. - This guy's pretty good. - I guess. But yeah, so that's kind of something I knew I'm doing where usually I'll be like massively under-prepared going into rehearsals and like, so I'm just trying to, part of it's just kind of from my own piece of mind to feel ready, I don't know. - Well, I'm not one to like preach the importance of self-confidence to anyone else because this is very much a lesson I can learn myself. But have you at least like, as you've gone on and continued to produce music, do you feel more confident in your skill set? - Yes and no. I mean, I do feel confident in my ability to write and record a song and share it with people and do all that. But on the other hand, there's like a very intense dissatisfaction with myself and everything I do. And I don't wanna fall on say insecurity 'cause it's more about just like a hope that I can do better in the future. So like, that's kind of the, what keeps me going and continuing to write songs is that I'm never really that happy with what I've done. Even though like, I can take a step back and acknowledge like, this is, I don't wanna say good, but this is acceptable. I mean, there's a part of me that thinks it's very good but a very small part of me. Most of me is saying, you gotta do better than this. You gotta do better than this. Not to try to put my own music down 'cause I am proud of it, but I don't know. - It's tough and I relate to everything you just said. It's a mixed, it's a double-edged sword, I would say, that there is obviously, you know, it's not good for yourself confidence to always feel like that but then if you feel like you've never quite hit the thing that you wanna hit or it's never just like exactly where you want it to be, then that at least compels you to keep doing it to a certain extent, you know? - Yeah, I mean, I do think it's good enough to release and share with other people. And honestly, like, I wanna be like the greatest songwriter, like, ever, you know, deep down. And that's kind of what I'm trying to do but I obviously fall. It's modest goals, yeah, it's like literally but you know, it's like, I'm not like, I obviously fall flat every time but I think that where I end up is decent and worth sharing with people. So I'm not trying to say I'm terrible or something but there is like this weird just self, I don't wanna say hatred, self dissatisfaction that, you know, is actually part of what keeps me wanting to make another album 'cause if I feel like if I was like, this is so good, I would probably not feel as compelled to make stuff. - I always try to figure out where that comes from for me because like I had parents that loved me, they were supportive of the things that I wanna do and yet I know that I'm harder on myself than any other person is on me. - Yeah, it's also like there's some statistic like a hundred thousand songs a day being released on Spotify. So to what extent I have to ask myself why am I bothering contributing to this noise? So on one hand, I do set my standards very high because I want it to matter. I want there to be a reason that someone would wanna listen to my song out of the hundred thousand but I also kind of like acknowledge the how ridiculous it is that I'm like dedicating my life to doing this and I don't have a particularly elevated sense of like the importance of what I do even though I am proud of it. - Would you classify some of that as imposter syndrome? - Not really 'cause like I do think I'm doing the right thing. I mean, I really, I don't know how to do anything else so it's not like I feel like why am I doing this 'cause I know, I know why I'm doing it but it does, yeah, I don't know. I just kind of like don't take it that. I mean, I take my music very seriously but like everything else around it, I don't take very seriously. - I think I have the right read on this but I feel like that's reflected in the music videos of like, hey, let's just kind of have a fun time with this music I just made. - Yeah, it's true. I wanna have a good time making it and I want other people to have a good time for the most part when they engage with it. That's not to say I won't like have sad songs or like something kind of buried in there about darker feelings which is I think is there but ultimately I kind of consider myself an entertainer and I want to, I do wanna like make someone's day better for three minutes or whatever. - This is cliche but it's cliche for a reason. Like that to me is a benchmark of great pop songs is balancing like the subject matter with some, you know, some dark subject matter with like a really great hook. - Yeah, those are my favorite kind of songs where it's kind of, they sneak it in there a little bit, you know? - Do you have benchmarks for success? I mean, is there an extent to which people paying attention, people coming out to the shows, critical feedback or anything else like gives you a reason to keep doing this? - I mean, not really. I feel like I've already exceeded like my expectations from like being, growing up in like Jackson, Mississippi. I mean, I remember there was a point when I was talking to a friend and this is like before I ever had an album out but I was releasing the demos that became my first album and we were kind of talking about our goals and I was like, I want to play a show in New York City. That was like my goal. I was like, if I could just do that, that would be something I'd be proud of for the rest of my life. And I have to remind myself of that kind of thing because I've played New York like a hundred times. I've played, you know, a lot of places around the world and but yeah, there's always something else. I mean, you know, I mean, I have a recently the song I made with "I Dress Went Platinum." I never thought that would happen in my entire life. And so yeah, the benchmarks are more creative where it's like, I just want to make something so good. I don't know. And then like, as far as like commercial success or anything like that, I've always been prepared to just be broke, to like die, penniless in a gutter. I really don't care. And thankfully I'm able to like make a modest living, actually making music, but I don't like, I've never been like a business minded or commercial minded person where I'm really bad at that to be honest. So I don't know. I'm just thankful that enough people have wanted to listen that it is working out okay. But my only really benchmarks are just the quality of the music. - You know, when you say you have to remind yourself, what does that mean to remind yourself that, you know, that this is kind of, I guess that you're lucky that you're able to continually have this experience. - Yeah, for example, I have a tour coming up and like there are moments where I'm excited about that and moments where I'm really stressed out and dreading it to be honest. Even though like, it's a process that I really love. I feel extremely lucky to be able to perform music I wrote to an audience, however big or small it is. But like in moments where I'm really stressed out or maybe dreading something that's kind of that I have to do to promote my music or something like that, I have to remind myself of that, yeah, that I'm able to do it at all and remind myself of where I was as a kid dreaming about this. It's crazy, you know what I mean. So yeah, I mean, there are, you know, I've been writing songs for like 25 years straight up. You know, this is my sixth album. So I do have to remind myself maybe even not actively but subconsciously be in a place where I am really aware of how special this is. - Do you get stage fright or do you get anxiety at all around playing live? - Well, the only, I don't get stage fright but the only anxiety I have is around my singing voice 'cause I've had some like, mildly traumatic experiences where my voice went out when I was sick and like I was embarrassed. Although honestly, after going through those experiences, the audience is there with you, they're down. They don't really care that much. I'm still alive, nothing really that bad happens but I have this weird fear of losing my voice 'cause I actually do have a little bit of a sensitive voice. That's one of the reasons I'm like actually practicing singing for the first time in my life. And but yeah, so like it's not stage fright where I'm like very comfortable being in front of people, singing my songs, there's nothing bad about that but there's like a bit of a paranoia about like losing my voice. That's like the main thing. - This is like an anxiety, this is the way that anxiety manifests itself that I have to deal with is trying to figure out like how much to draw attention to that fact. Like on one of those nights where you're, you know, your voice is a little bit scratchy. Do you do address it? You know, obviously you don't wanna dwell on it but part of you kind of wants to really like feel like, hey, you know, don't worry, this isn't how I usually sound. - Yeah, I actually have changed my mind about this over the years and at this point, I don't say anything about it. I feel like if I really, if it's that bad, I should cancel it. I mean, that's usually if it's like, I feel like I'm damaging my voice by singing through truly like a bad thing. But like, I feel like as part of my like feeling that I'm an entertainer is that like, I don't want one little thing I do or say to make somebody feel like, oh, I wish I came to the wrong concert. His voice is not as good as it usually is. Like, I wish I went to one of the ones where his voice was perfect, you know? So I actually never say anything negative. I try to not say anything negative at all on stage just because I want somebody paid money to come to this and I want them to feel like it's like the best thing ever. Have you taken singing lessons at all? - I have, I mean, even when I was really little, I like came up singing in church and school. I went to a performing arts elementary school where I was in the theater program and I was in a lot of musicals. So I took singing lessons when I was very young and I, before my last tour a couple of years ago, I took some like singing lessons, which I think helped, but I think what I've realized is that like, I have enough of a basis to understand how to sing. I just need to like exercise the muscles and keep my voice in shape, which is something I don't do if I don't have a reason to do it. I'll go, you know, I'll go months without singing that much, even I might write a song and I sang a little bit that afternoon, but like as far as getting in the habit, I find that like, yeah, just singing for like 30 minutes a day makes the world of difference between like, you know, not doing it. And plus I do, you know, I'm going out to social situations a lot, you know, talking over loud music at a bar, something is pretty bad for your voice. - Yeah, drinking doesn't help either. - Yeah, like recently, quick coffee 'cause of the acid reflux and stuff like that. Um, yeah, gotta be careful. - I quit coffee during the pandemic and I had actually quit drinking before that and I found quitting coffee to be like 10 times harder for me just in terms of like real chemical dependency. - Yeah, it's really corny. Like I have this product that I got called Wien caffeine. I mean, you could do this yourself, but it's like this thing that they give you a caffeine pill and like every three days it goes down by 10 milligrams. So, you know, if you drink a cup a day, start with 100 milligrams, pill a day, and then after three days it goes to 90 milligrams and it lasts 30 days. And I did it once before 'cause I quit coffee for my last tour and then I like started again. So we'll see if I like start again. But I like it, once I'm really fully off, I realize that like I think that I do sustain energy better throughout the day rather than like go crazy for like an hour and a half and then feel kind of weird in the afternoon. But I don't know, is this something I'm doing right now? Yeah. - I think your body like, your body starts to anticipate that it's coming and it like you, it regulates your energy level accordingly. So when it doesn't come, you're screwed. - Oh yeah, the thing, I mean, the reason why, the reason why I ask about singing lessons is I'm not suggesting that you need them, but just like, you know, like more and more musicians I talk to them where I realize how important learning to sing correctly is as far as not actually like injuring yourself in the process. - Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that is really important. And also like the other taking care of your voice when you're not singing that we were kind of mentioning, it's also really important. I find that a lot of people I know don't do that. I have a lot of friends that I do feel like have permanently damaged their voice over the years. You know, I've been doing this like my first time came out 15 years ago. So I've known a lot of people that do this. And I do think it's pretty common for people to permanently damage their voice. So yeah, all that's important, singing properly. I mean, I think it's like, I think it's a little overstated. I think that like, once you like get down a few basics and you're not just like straightening your throat and like singing from your throat and you can, you understand that like breathing when you're diaphragm, even just like knowing what that is and practicing it, even if you're like kind of halfway doing it, like that goes so far. And I do think another big thing is just treating, being kind to your voice when you're not singing is huge, you know, smoking. I mean, I'm not trying to be, I'm like, actually a really degenerate person. I love to drink. I, you know, like, I like totally like have no problem with like people smoking, like actually like, you know what I mean? But like, just smoking is bad for your singing voice. That's, I don't care if you, you know, do it. It's great. I'll actually, I feel like nicotine is awesome. I love it. It feels good. Sometimes I still like I'll be out and I'll hit my friends like little like nicotine pen or whatever, like else. I don't, I don't know. I'm not, I'm not like a T totaler at all, but I just recognize these things. And I feel like being careful is really important. - Yeah. There's a difference too, like between like vaping and like actually smoking a cigarette. - Yeah. Especially off your smoking a bunch per day, you know, that's, you know, very different. - Your voice had to be more out front when it was you and the ukulele versus now, you know, playing with a band and having more like layered music. Do you feel like, do you feel like you had to sort of lean into it in a way that you don't necessarily have to now? - Not really, 'cause I do feel like in my recordings I mix my voice pretty upfront and when I'm live, I do, even though there's more going on in the, in the like arrangement, I do have my vocals pretty forward in the mix like on the album and both live. So I do feel like it is like up there in your kind of like, in your face a little bit and I, so I don't necessarily, to me it doesn't feel like my voice was more exposed than it is now, although now that I think about it, it was because, you know, I did an entire European tour, part of which was opening for animal collective and like venues that were a thousand to two thousand people just playing ukulele and singing with my friend, playing maracas and tambourine and doing harmonies. And it was like very bare. So obviously my voice is much more exposed than, but I've never really thought about it that way. - I would guess that, you know, that animal collective, I'm speaking as an animal collective fan, that they would be open to, you know, different experiences but was that ever really awkward to get at, you know, they're this kind of big like bombastic band with four dudes to get out in front of that and be this, I guess at the time relatively unknown person standing there with a ukulele. - Yeah, I didn't personally find it awkward just 'cause like part of me is just, I wanted to embrace the fact that I'm doing something different. Some people here are gonna like it, some aren't. That's totally okay with me. Like I, yeah, I feel like maybe it was a little awkward but I never really, that never really crossed my mind 'cause it's just like, here I am, you know. This, that was like my first time touring Europe. I would, you know, there's like a year after that conversation or like a year and a half after I said like, I want to play New York one day and then it's like fast forward, my album just came out a month ago and I'm doing this. So I'm like, I don't care if it's awkward, you know. And I've never been the kind of person where it's like, you know, there's gonna be some people talking to the back, there's gonna be some people paying attention when you're opening for a band that kind of goes back to what I'm saying about I'm not gonna complain on stage. In very rare instances I might say something but like I've never been the kind of person to be like, "Hey, I'm playing up here, be quiet, pay attention." And that's one reason that now when I do solo shows, I have a little drum machine track behind me and I try to fill up the space a little more because yeah, it's like, I recognize that I'm like, these people like came out to have a drink and hear music not necessarily like, be quiet. So if they want to have a conversation in the back, I don't really, I don't really care. Although it can, it can get gratuitous. And as a showgoer, I find myself pretty annoyed when that's happening and I want to listen. But as a performer, I'm just kind of like going with the flow and it's my job to command their attention and be and play good music, you know. - Having been on the side of that, do you feel like you're sort of more mindful or more attentive when it comes to like, as a showgoer, showing up on time and making sure that you're watching all the opening bands? - Yeah, absolutely, I try to do that. I can't say I'm always perfect about it. It's hard. If you go to a show and you see people you haven't seen in months and it's pretty hard not to say like, hey, what's up and have a short conversation? But I'm like super mindful of that. And yeah, I always try to like get up towards the front and like listen to bands and not be a jerk, I don't know. - When you mentioned, you know, bringing something different with the Ukulele, it reminds me as ringing every that you did. And you, I don't even think I'm paraphrasing, said like, I don't want to be the Ukulele guy, you know, moving forward. It reminds me when I was in college, which is a long time ago now, there was a Ukulele guy in Santa Cruz, who like, and it was really novel at the time. And then there, and then it's like, once the culture comes around to you, then you feel the need to go off and like try something different because you don't want to feel like you were chasing that. - Absolutely. And like, to be honest, part of me was chasing that when I decided to do that. I mean, I liked Tiny Tim. And like, I kind of like, like knew there were these, there was this kind of novelty aspect to this that I wanted to embrace. And then there were like people like Jens Leckman and the magnetic fields at the time that were also doing it. Obviously in the like early 2000s, there was like a twee indie pop moment where like Ukulele was a thing. And I quickly realized I maybe I was a part of it, but I don't want to really that to be my legacy, especially like as it gets more, I don't know, I don't want to say mainstream, but like, you know, you hear in like a Charmin ad, but like a Ukulele in a Glock and just be like, "Cute, cute, cute, cute, see." And I'm like, "No, no, no, no, no, no, this is not me." And I have to admit that it was a gimmick. Like, I was like, oh, this is, you know, if I say didn't make and his magnet was an Ukulele and like in the earliest shows, I would like wear a cape and like have a weird suit on and like be kind of like theatrical. And I was like, oh, this will be one small reason someone might want to hear my songs and not just didn't make. And then once I did that, I was like, and not to mention that I just, I want to do other things. I like a lot of different kinds of music and I think that's reflected in what I've done since. Like, it's, you know, I try to, I don't know, I'm just, I want to like be, I want to explore and not like, I kind of, another thing I've noticed doing this for so long is I think a lot of artists and bands get stuck having success with a sound, thinking they have to do that for the rest of their career. And that's why it's like famously so many like debut albums with the best album and diminishing returns is pretty common. So it's like also that like self-diff satisfaction I'm talking about earlier is kind of coupled with like a desire to explore possibilities and that keeps me going. Like there is no read, like I want to make an album that's like a piano and strings and nothing, my voice and nothing else. I want to make a full on like club album, like I don't care, like I can and will do any of that. And, but as it is kind of like my albums have like a little bit of each, you know, oftentimes, but you know. - I think I reflect on a lot. Yeah, years and years ago I was interviewing Wayne Colleen from The Famine Labs. And at the time I was using, like in the context of the conversation was using the word gimmick, like as a bad word as like most people, you know, usually you use a word like gimmick and the connotations are that it's like, you know, like like like like cheaper or hacky or that it detracts from other things. But he, you know, he effectively said, yeah, like we're a gimmicky band, we do gimmicks. We like gimmicks. And then I was like, yeah, I love that. I love just like, you know, continuing to embrace that and not necessarily feeling like doing something like maybe a little bit silly or a little bit out of the mainstream is like necessarily a bad thing. - Yeah, I mean, I think that what it really comes down to is the rest of what you're doing good is the music actually good. Like a gimmick that, you know, that contributes to great music or that's like one aspect of just the way you perform or present your music. If it's amazing, people are going to love that. But if you're gimmicky and the music sucks, people are going to hate that. - Do you feel like there's still some gimmicks that you use? Like on this album, are there, do you think that there are gimmicks? - I can't really think of one. I mean, there's like aesthetic themes like that I do with the album title and art. For example, this one is what's for breakfast and I'm in like a classic diner environment on the cover and I'm like currently writing a list of my favorite diners for a musical website. And that's not a gimmick to me, but it's sort of like an aesthetic world that I am building around the album. And like this kind of in a way it's in sequel to my last album, Late Checkout, which was about kind of like old school Americana of motels, roadside motels and stuff. I feel like it's more like I'm, I like to think of it like I'm more of building a world that around my music. And I don't think of those as gimmicks. I mean, a gimmick would be something like, I'm addicted to ChapStick and my fans know it. So I sell, I don't have it right now, but like I used to sell ChapStick, didn't make ChapStick at the merch table. That feels like more of a gimmick, even though I don't know if it is a gimmick, but yeah, I don't really exist outside of the music though. - Exactly. - Yeah, you know, you mentioned the magnetic fields and I was just thinking about this recently that they had, you know, the album where every song, every song on it begins with the letter I. And I don't know, I'm sure like other people have pointed out to you that having a hotline is, you know, in the tradition of like, of they might be giants. And you know, like these are, yeah, these are all bands that have like, yeah, have had those like little things that they've hung their hats on, but have absolutely transcended that. - Totally. Yeah, the hotline and the one call that's all video, you could describe that as a gimmick or like, but again, it's also more of like an aesthetic world 'cause I'm like doing the like, lawyer, the like ambulance chasing, lawyer commercial and stuff like that. So yeah, I mean, it's kind of gimmicky, but it does feel like it's like building a world around it. And it's, I don't know. I'm not trying to say it's good, but the hotline part of it was actually the part that my least favorite part about it because I've noticed it's a really common thing for bands to do. Like call this number to hear a little snippet of the album like it's really, really common, but this was more like once I had settled on doing this like lawyer thing, which Nathan expanded to include like other types of commercials. Like they all have this number flashing and dent May is seven letters. So like, I can't remember what it is a one eight three three dent May or whatever. It's like, I can't, I can't not do this. You know what I mean? - Yeah, and there are worse things to be compared to than they might be giants at like in my estimation. - Yeah, I love them. I mean, I didn't even know that they did that, but I've seen a lot of people do it. I mean, they might have been the first, but yeah. - Yeah, early days, it's something called dial a song, which was like, you know, like pretty, like a kind of a pre-internet kind of thing, but I was also thinking it like again, getting back to the magnetic fields album. You know, I was thinking about that and I was curious, I should go back and kind of read, you know, the process of actually writing those songs because I was wondering how much of it was them kind of working backwards into that, how much of it was him really like setting a set of parameters for himself to build an album around. And it strikes me that like, that the latter probably applies to a lot of your stuff in that building something around a theme, like it gives you a focus so the air brain's not going in too many different directions at the same time. - Yeah, I mean, setting restrictions is so important. And that's probably the hardest thing for me because like my music can be quite maximalist. And you know, I am kind of like a everything but the kitchen sink type of a ranger. And I kind of like that. I'm not necessarily trying to go full on minimal but you know, like for example, I was like, I'm not gonna have any strings on this album or horns even though I ended up putting one trumpet and I have a lot of like fake set strings but it was just kind of a thing where it's like, oh, I'm gonna like limit the palette a little bit and it's a little more, you know, there's a little bit less going on. And then yeah, like conceptually, I don't know having some ideas. Like I do think that the I thing or like there are 69 love songs. That's like a framework to like, once you like decide on a framework, sometimes the songs can kind of write themselves, yeah. - And I guess this is probably backlash to like the turn of the last century but you know, in law of circles, maximalist is a dirty word but you, you know, I was writing an interview and you mentioned that in there too and you mentioned ELO and it's like you can't, that's like unimpeachable, you know? It's like, yeah, they were maximalist but like the music is great. So what can you argue with? - Well, I am sort of a contrarian in the sense that like I feel like a lot of the 2000s and the 2010s have been minimal, you know, aside from music, you go into a coffee shop and it's like beige everything. There's nothing on the walls. It's that like thing. And like as soon as I see something kind of reflected in the culture, I kind of want to do the opposite. And I do think that like maximalist psych pop, I don't know if it's in or out of style right now. I do think that maximalism is coming back into the zeitgeist a little bit but I do think that like, I don't, you know, when I see something underrepresented, I think in the cultural zeitgeist, I kind of want to do it. Not to try to say that I'm some like enigmatic, like, you know, whisper of culture or something but like, yeah, I've always kind of, and also the thing with the ukulele thing is I knew it was kind of off-putting to some people. And so like I've kind of always embraced that. Like I'm okay being a little cheesy or like being a little not like, I'm not like a cool guy, mysterious rocker. That's just not me and I'm not pretending to be that. So I'm like, okay with being like doing things that some people will like and others won't. I kind of embrace that. - Is there a sense in which maximalism is a reaction to your own early work? - Probably so. But it's also just, I think it just also reflects that I do like kind of like obsessively consume as much music and other types of media as possible. And so I feel like kind of overwhelmed by like my desire to stylistically, you know, play around with all these different like tropes and like aspects of like the history of recording music. So I'm like trying to cram them all into like one song or one album and yeah, I think it, but there is an aspect where it probably is like a reaction to like my first album. And like I do think I had a little bit of an internal backlash to my own first album for whatever reason, part of it is like ukulele becoming like uncool and popular culture at the time, which once again, I see it coming back right now. But you know, it is what it is. I don't want to see myself, I don't want to find myself, I very quickly learned, I don't want to find myself giving any thought to trends or chasing any sort, especially youthful, I'm a 30 year old man at this point. I'm not chasing any sort of youthful trends and I want to just do what I do forever and that maybe will come in and out of style. But I don't know, like I'm not chasing trends. And I think that I wouldn't say I was with a ukulele album, but like, I think I would have been more likely to be influenced by what the kids are into these days at the time where now I'm much more secure than just who I am. - I don't usually end up using the video for this. Something that people are missing out on is that you're wearing what appears to be a Tommy Bahama shirt right now, which to me is really. - I think it's extremely sense anyway. It's actually not an LL Bean, it's LL Bean, but it's funny, I was talking about Tommy Bahama, I was literally talking about Tommy Bahama with my friend, literally two days ago. And I love the Margaritaville Tommy Bahama aesthetic, which funny enough, I don't think I actually own a Tommy Bahama shirt, but I own lots of things that could be one, but yeah, exactly. - Funny moment in my life when I cross that threshold from really enjoying the Yacht Rock video series to listening to the music ironically to actually like, oh, this is an earnest enjoyment of like, I mean, obviously now it's like cool to talk about how great Steely Dan is, but you know what I mean? That it was almost like taken as a silly thing at the time. They obviously had a lot of reverence for it. And then it's like, yeah, if you, sometimes if you play something enough times ironically, you begin to really like appreciate it on a very real fundamental level. - Yeah, I was talking to someone who teaches school the other day and they said that like middle school right now, kids are right now are like obsessed with 80s music and they're so far removed from the cultural moment where obviously they're, at one point there was a huge backlash to like, you know, Duran Duran style like 80s aesthetics. It's like the tackiest thing you could do, but like, you know, down the line, no one really, you know, remembers that or cares. And I don't know, it kind of also goes, I don't want to say I'm a full on contrarian like in a negative way, but it like, I loved like, Yacht Rock forever, you know? And there's a kind of thing where like, I have this thing where like, oh, you think this is uncool? The fact that you think it's uncool makes it cool or like there's a reverse of that where like, once something has become cool in a way that everyone can agree this is cool, they're rolling stones. It's like, I love them, I'm obsessed with them, but like trying to, me trying to be Mick Jagger would be the corniest thing I could ever do. You know what I mean? So it's like being a cool guy rock star, there's always going to be a kind of a lane for that, I'm sure, but once that's what is considered cool, it's not cool, you know? - It's so funny, like maybe like six months or a year ago, Steve Albini was going off on Steely Dan and like I had this in talking about how he helped. Oh, I think he said punks hate Steely Dan. And then I had that like, you know, sort of like a contrarian impulse to be like, well, Steely Dan is more punk than you ever are. And I'm like, I'm just like far like way too far into the looking glass and I've lost all context to suggest that Steely Dan is more punk than Steve Albini. But at the end of the day, like literally none of this shit matters. - Well, I mean, the fact that he felt compelled to say that on Twitter is proof of the power of Steely Dan. I mean, that's like the irony that I hope is not lost on him, you know, that it's powerful. And yeah, it doesn't matter if you like it or not. I would never have like the ego to think that like, I need to get on Twitter.com and be like, oh, everyone likes this thing. Here's why you shouldn't like it. Like to me, like I used to do stuff like that, but that's like to me the worst, like narcissistic impulse, you know, and I'm not trying to call out people who chime in on pop culture, on social media. It's fun and in a way it's necessary. Like it's impossible not to, but like I'm out. Like I'm not ever gonna do that. And especially when it's like, you know, there's like the like let people enjoy things type meme or whatever where it's like, yeah, I don't care if you like the same stuff I like or not. And if something is super popular and I don't like it, good for them. Like I don't, yeah, I don't know, like whatever. And yeah, Steely Dan's amazing. I like Steely Dan more than anything Steve Albany he ever touched, by far. And not to say he worked on some great stuff, but not enough for him to like come say in that stuff. Yeah. In a way, the fact that Anne will collect it. Who at the time, you know, not that they're not still great and cool, but at the time we're like some like apex of like cultural coolness embraced you doing this thing that may or may not have been cool at the time must have been, there must have been a validation there for you. I was pretty surprised, you know, but I mean, I met them like and became friends with them, you know what I mean? Before they heard my music, I guess, or something like that. I mean, they knew I was a musician at first, but they were recording. They didn't have to put your album out. No, I don't know, it's amazing. I mean, it is cool. It's a testament to them. I mean, I think they, I don't want to speak for them, but like they also come from a place of a pure place where they, you know, I think that, I don't want to say what they were doing was ever uncool, but I think that like in their early days, what they were doing was off-putting to some people. And they were having a pretty abrasive live show in the early days, but like they were specifically doing stuff that is kind of divisive and that love it or hate it. The thing that's great about that is the people who love it are going to love it so much more, you know what I mean? And they were never chasing trends. They invented the trend, you know what I mean? And eventually culture catches up with people like that. And so, and yeah, the fact that they like my music is cool and it, to me, I don't know, it definitely just shows that they're, they're, I don't know, to me, they're just the best, they're just nice, good people. And they're not like, they're not trying to like sign the next animal collective, they're just, you know, it was quite more of a friend thing or something, I don't know. - I had Avion a couple of months ago. It was the first time I'd ever spoke with him. And I was like, oh, I don't know why I was kind of nervous. I thought like, you know, you were going to be like too cool for school, but it's like, oh no, it's just a, just a dude that happens to be in a really good band, which is always, it's always very heartening. - Yeah, I mean, they're the, among the least too cool for school type people I've ever met in music, you know, which is a cool, which is great. - Another way that strikes me as you sort of being, a contrarian isn't the right word, but there's a better word I'm blanking, but kind of moving in two directions at the same time is that to a certain extent, it strikes me that like, you might almost have to be by the nature of the music that you make a bit of a micromanager with stuff. That's a little bit, you know, playing into the maximalist thing. It's a fact that you're like co-operated studio. I suspect plays into that too, but also are so ready to embrace collaborations and in order to collaborate with somebody, like you have to let up some control. - Absolutely, it took me a long time to learn that, or to be comfortable with it. I mean, I didn't really start doing that until like, maybe almost 10 years into, you know, my quote unquote career making music, you know. And it's also kind of one of the things that keeps me going. It's like I'm saying I want to keep exploring, and that's one way I can explore is by bringing other people into the process, treating it more like a community than like a personal, I don't know, like diary entry or something like that. And it's one way to keep things interesting, and also like I learn a lot collaborating. And, you know, as I keep doing this, I realize that like music is a community, and like the friendships I have, and the other people in my life who write music that I love, like I want them to be a part of what I do. And yeah, I mean, there is part of that that's like the LA songwriting session scene, which like I dabbled in, but like I very quickly learned that if I'm not friends with you and I don't already know in like your music, what we make today probably isn't gonna be good. And it's definitely, or I would say it's probably not gonna, well, I don't know how to wear this, but it's probably not gonna be good, and it's probably not gonna ever be released. I mean, you know, it's just like... - There's a lack of almost like inauthenticity to it if you don't really believe in the product. - Of course, and I really hate the pressure of being like I'm going in with a stranger, and we have four hours to write and record a song. And I think that there are some hit songs that do get made that way, but I actually think that probably the best of it wasn't made that way. And it's different when I'm like, hey, one of my best friends, let's get together some afternoon. And there's the idea that like we could do this once a week if we want to. In fact, there was a time when I was having once a week songwriting kind of sessions with my friend Paul Cherry who co-wrote three of the songs on that new album. But like it's way different when you're like, have a friend for four hours being like, let's see what happens then like a stranger that was like set up by like a publishing company or an artist manager. I don't know, I'm always open to it. And I do get those emails sometimes and it's when someone that I've already really like, you know, catches my ear. That's when I say yes. In fact, Jordana, we already followed each other on social media and we liked each other's music and had I think probably communicated like maybe a little bit like on social media, but like that was actually or one of the few things that like like a publisher or manager or somebody like made that session happen and now we're like good friends. So never say never. - I had Carl Newman on the show and I asked him the question of just like, you know, 'cause I've had people, I've talked to a lot of people who have like these really successful what I guess, you know, what you would do in like indie rock or like, you know, like mid-level with successful careers. And I was like, ah, you know, you write such great pop songs. Have you ever considered, you know, doing this for, you know, being part of that machine? And he said, don't you think that if I could have gotten that to work that I would still be doing that? Like, you know, like that like obviously in terms of making a living, doing music and still being able to pursue your thing on the side, like that's a great, that's a great road to go down, but not everybody, even like people who can write a great hook and great songs are not necessarily equipped to do it that way. - Yeah, I find that a lot of it's more of a networking thing or as well with the pop world. It's kind of like, there's a whole world of people that know each other and not to say I don't like those kinds of people 'cause I do, but like there's a very different attitude towards making music that a lot of those people have that is more transactional and that's okay, but yeah, I would, you know, I don't know, but I don't know, I would, I'm down to try anything and if some, and that's the kind of thing where it's like, I don't wanna have a session where it's like somebody set it up. If somebody like that loves my music and is like really wants to write with me, definitely, but it's the worst when like somebody set it up and they don't really know who I am and I don't know who they are and you're just there because you're there, that's stupid. ♪ I can't help it, this poor heart is melting ♪ ♪ I can't take my eyes off you ♪ ♪ It's digging to me ♪ [BLANK_AUDIO]