The crew discusses their first impression of Dresden Files RPG and RPGs in general.
We also share a few bits of listener feedback.
Knights of the Night
KOTN Acutal Play Podcast 60: DFRPG 1-10 "Dresden Discussion & Feedback"
(upbeat music) - All games considered with news. Now we have a press release. Views, the fiction I know is not everyone's cup of tea, but this one is pretty creepy. I like it. Reviews. - It doesn't bother me as much because you're not worried about the weapons tables because there aren't any. - And interviews. - Shawn Patrick, fun and... - Greg Payline from Microtechnics Incorporated. - I'm Andy Chambers with Games Whip Show. - On tabletop games, visit us at AGCPodcast.info. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Hello and welcome to Knights of the Night, actual play podcast. This Dresden final discussion was led by our GM now. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) And now, please enjoy feedback and discussion. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Before we get started, I'm not going to be an opposite of this week, but in the discussion of what we thought of Dresden and Russia. Before we found that, I want to know what you have. (upbeat music) - I can interview title, "Nice Job" by Lucky Traveler. Lucky Traveler says, "I've been listening to this actual play podcast along with a few others, and this has become my most recent favorite. I'm a big Jim Butcher fan, and these guys do the Dresden Files genre justice. The production values are great, and perhaps the best compliment I can give is, "I wish I were sitting around the table with them." Keep up the great work, guys. If you haven't tried this podcast, give it a shot. - Well, thank you. - How can you beat that? - Yeah, and that's pretty high praise. - Yeah, actually, I feel the same way as when I listen to an actual play, if it just sounds like a bunch of guys that I'd love to sit around and talk to them, but then that's what I listen to. So I think it's possibly the highest praise we can ask for is someone that wants to join us at the table. The other bit of feedback we got is two posts on the Facebook page. The first one I'm going to let Mike read and the other I'm going to let us get right. So, Mike. - Okay. Thanks to us from Martin Kroeg. Thanks for a great actual play podcast about Hunter the Vigil and as a Norwegian. Let's say it's good food for any decent role player. All right. - That's why I let Mike read it because he's the only one that would know how to pronounce that word. Being Norwegian ancestor. - Well, yeah. - Somewhat. - Grandmother. - And thanks very much for that feedback. It's nice to still get feedback from World of Darkness that we've wrapped it up, that story. - I forget that we even talked about Luffsa. - Right. - Yeah, too actually. - So we just read that call back. - So we're going to be starting that up again, Martin, sometime soon. So glad you enjoyed it. Look forward to hearing more feedback from you in the future. And the next bit of feedback we have is from our Facebook page. It's DJ Allen, being a fellow storyteller, game master myself. I was wondering if the GM's in your group, Tom, Scott, and whomever else I'm not aware of GMing. Whether they come up with their own material or draw from specific sources, like movies, books, games, et cetera. Or is the prevailing interest in adopting something known to fit the system you're using? - Well, as far as the podcast goes, I've only run two adventures. Well, one and soon to be the same. - One and a half, right? - One and not even a half. The first one was a canned adventure. And we've already discussed why I thought that was a good idea to do that. Or actually, we're about to discuss that, because that'll be released right after this, the second part of this episode. As far as this one goes, the adventure you're about to hear the next Dresden Files storyline, it's kind of a byproduct of the game. I mean, the game has a city. You create the city, it gives you aspects and things you can tap into. Rush feet into the character, the characters come up with aspects. And the entire story came from just sitting back at myself and thinking about what would be interesting, what aspects could I grab from at some of the different characters and gel it together in a story? And then from there, I started doing some research. I thought, oh, this would be a clever and interesting idea. And I found out some really interesting components to add to it. - So it sounds like yours was more an amalgamation of character ideas. Yeah, ideas coming from characters. And then maybe a little bit of follow-up investigation with your Google food to really round out the story. - Yes. - For me, being a storyteller predominantly right now in the world of darkness system, I look for inspiration anywhere. I get it from the world of darkness books. I get it from TV. I get it from books I'm reading. I get it from snippets of songs I might hear. You know, a clever line or turn a phrase. I have an idea of where I want the arc to go, but how we get there I think is half the fun. So I pretty much beg, borrow, steal, you know, get information from wherever I can. Some of it is, of course, internal, but a lot of it is. It does come from movies and books. I think you just kind of hook onto a really good theme for a story and then just flush it out from there. So where that theme comes from, again, it might come from anywhere, but I think it's like Tom said, it's a little bit of both. You know, it's a little bit internal. It's a little bit external, but it comes from all over. So probably the same thing you experienced yourself, DJ Allen, when you're, you know, coming up with stories, it's probably a mixture of a lot of different elements coming together. - Have other people in the group who haven't been released as far as the podcast go? The newest members of our crew, John and Thomas, neither of them have GTEM as of yet. - Although there is some in the future, Thomas is talking about not necessarily something we're gonna release. - Not even close. - Not even close? Not even close. It's the first attempt he doesn't want to brought public, but actually both the other two players at the table, Jim, and Jim hasn't done for a long time, but I know you have done it in the past and I know Mike has definitely done it in the past. - Well, one of the things that Scott said that I think where the ideas come from, like that full adventure that we haven't released is all based on something I saw in a nature show of that crazy fungus that took over ants. And then just a sort of extrapolating or asking questions that you know, what if you don't explain it and what if that isn't the only organism or what if it eventually gets to humans and well, if we're gonna talk about humans, let's talk about what if it happened to a vampire. - And so I think you see stuff and-- - That was inspiration via PBS. - Wasn't it? - Yeah. - It was like a YouTube video or some nature video that I grew up across from, I don't know where I saw, but it's like, you know, it's the cool things you see and then you ask your questions, you start asking questions like, well, you know, what does that mean or why is that there? And then you just start filling in the blanks like anyone who has a story is, you know, why are the pyramids, you know, the way they are, you know, and you kind of create a story that explains why they could be a big generator or they're just a big pile of rubble for no other purpose, but you create something and then you can, you know, it's fun to build facts. It's like those alternate histories that you use just enough historical fact to, you know, make it interesting. - Or Neil Gaiman's great line when fans ask him, where do you come up with the ideas for your stories? I make them up. (laughs) - That's his guess. - His reply, but that's tongue-in-cheek, but I think it really is. - I see the question, what if? - Yeah. - What if, you know, because when I was doing this one and trying to come up with a plot line of where you're gonna go, I've got a few components. I've got the story of what you guys wanna see in Cleveland. I've got your individual characters. So, what if, and then-- - And why not? - Yeah, you know. - And run with it. - Right. - And just twist it and push it to the farthest extreme-- - If all these components were sitting still and these components wanted to act, then what would they do? And then what would happen there? And I was trying to explain to the boys I think one of the dangerous things with doing a mystery type invention is getting too flutter. - Right. - Is that you actually just gotta make the answer to the mystery is simple, with all the facts are clear on who knows them, and then have the characters try to find them. - Right. - And they're putting the pieces of the positive you have a slice. If it's too complicated in order, it's gonna require massive explanation, then you've gone too deep. You wanna keep it, especially when doing a shorter adventure, you wanna keep it relatively simple so that no matter how, what path they take, they're gonna find a piece of the puzzle. And once they start digging, they're gonna find more and more, and that the pieces are there and easy to find. - Yeah, interesting question about-- - Jim. - How do you come up with stories? - I mean, it's been ages since you ran something. I don't think I can remember last time I ran that my Dungeons and Dragons adventure. People just do things that you totally don't expect them to do. - Absolutely. - Like guys, I had you in a room, and I thought you guys were gonna fight your evil cells, and you guys decided not to. And it was totally planned on, and when you did this, this was gonna happen, and you guys totally sidetracked that. Yeah, and I remember when you guys were going through this tower that I built, and I wanted to give you guys some magic items for your characters, and I put 'em here and there, and I figured, they're gonna search this, and they're gonna look under that. They're gonna kill this guy, and remember that I said at the beginning, he had this magic-blowing axe, and you guys just walked by everything, didn't look, didn't think-- - Just trying to get down. - Just trying to get down off the dead guy. We're just trying to get through the thing alive, and not thinking about searching rooms or-- - And Thomas talking about things, and I'm like, you guys look that behind. I want you guys to take that, would you? - And Thomas talking about running as far as adventure, that's one thing I try to explain to him, is you cannot-- - No story survives the player contact with the players. - Absolutely not, you can't assume the character's gonna do anything. The best thing that you can do, is create a high-level approach, and have characters ready for when they confront them, but to assume, I mean, that happened, you countless times, you would ask us, what are you guys gonna do next week? Just, you know, I mean, all of our adventures are sitting in our own, and we're discussing what we're gonna do the next day. What are you guys gonna do? And we tell Scott, and then we come back the next week and do something totally different. Never do the thing that we told him, never do the thing that he prepped for, never go throughout that you're-- - And that's a develop skill, because, you know-- - Yeah, absolutely. - But what I was telling Thomas, though, is what you wanna do, is never have one solution to the puzzle. - Right. - And it's your solution, and they're gonna fail unless they guess what your solution is. - Absolutely. - Create a situation and let them come up with their own solution. - And definitely don't get frustrated, 'cause they want the way you didn't want them to go, and just run with it, and just let it go to whatever conclusion it gets to. Just add a little bit more. - That's right. I mean, sometimes if they miss the big blaring-- - Yeah, the neon sign saying, go this way, then you make the story be, go the other way. - I know they wanted Mike thought of right now, when you said that. - He actually caused a cave in to prevent you from going into our-- (laughing) - It's like-- - I'm just thinking of the one where the guy chases us out. - Oh, he chases us out. - Oh, he chases us out. - In the other side of the city, he's a bit classic. - Well, I had a bullet point to make sure that there was a key reason, and I don't remember why we had to run. - There was a dragon attacking city, and we decided to run away. - Yeah, the heroes that were there to save the town. Oh, this is a dragon, so they run away. - Later. - There's a big dragon in the other city down. You might want to go over there. - No, we don't want to go there. - That's crazy. - There's not even that, yeah. - No, there's an actual dragon attacking the city, and we suck out. We were left by the side door. - We can't take this out. - And then the-- - The head of the guard. - Jesus, out of the city. - And stay out. - And said, "I want you out of the city now!" We were like, "Dude, we snuck away." - It's him, he's like, "I'm gone." - That dragon's way too powerful for us. No, it never, it never, you can't plan a story. - He ran up to let you know that you were a banish, and now I'll have to ever come back. - You're like, "Big deal, the dragon's come back." - The dragon's destroying us. - That's why the city anyways, who cares, we're not coming back. - Good stuff. - But what was cool about that adventure is, like Jim said, it leads to opportunities, and there was a great, and two-bed Greg stopped coming to the thing, but he triggered something that was-- - Oh, I remember that. - Yeah, he triggered something that was going to be a surprise for you guys, and then he surprised me by, he removed a dagger from a pile of bones, which is actually a restake from pile of bones, which is a dead vampire. I get him with the vampires. But then he buried the vampire and blessed the grave. So now this vampire's new grave soil was blessed, so it was in this constant torment. And I had this whole thing. (laughing) - I'm gonna get you. I'm gonna get you back, you bastard. - So, in fact, I remember the episode where the vampire did catch up to Greg's character, and was in a room with him just tearing him apart, and you guys wouldn't open the door, and wouldn't go into-- - Oh, we thought he was getting you on. - Yeah, because of the noises, right? - Yeah, I'd like for that. - It sounds really rough in there, and it sounds like screams-- - Oh, Greg! (laughing) - These are screams of pleasure. - So, one of the things I'd like to say to DJ Allen is that you should always, always, always have your players' interests in mind. If our players like mysteries, we like to research, we like to dig in, we like our fair share of combat as well, but we are problem solvers by nature. It's the type of adventure I like to run, and luckily the players like to do that as well. But, know your players. If your players are gonna be bored silly in like combat, then by all means, your story should revolve around epic combat. You should fit your story to your players, and that's what we try to do, whether we're getting that idea from a movie or the genesis of it from a couple sentences in a book somewhere, and we take that and roll with it. It's always about what are the players gonna like and what are they gonna enjoy, and I think that's a big part of it as well, as we try to go that extra mile to make sure, as GMs, to try to make sure our players have fun. It's not us against them. It's us trying to make the challenge as difficult as possible while hopefully still allowing them to succeed, and that makes the victory much sweeter for them at that point. - I agree. I knew when I read that that I was gonna generate. - A lot of discussion. - Yeah, I think we gave short shrift to the first review. I mean, that was really a fantastic review, and we really do appreciate it. We kind of were quick with the thank you using it was nice, but it really was a big compliment, and you can't get much larger compliment than that, and he took the time to actually, you know, type it up and put it in there. So from all of us, thank you very much for your iPod, or your iTunes review, and please keep listening, and we hope to hear more from you in the future as you hear more of our stories. - And now on to our Dresden discussion. - All right, that was our first real taste of Dresden, and what did you guys think? - Worth another trying to-- - Oh, I'll try, I'll try. - I'll try to play the system again. You know, I guess the vagaries of the fate system that appealed to so many, also, you know, make me a bit cautious. It's like, you know, you can't, it's like you really have to try to get someone out of the game, and it's not easy to take an NPC out, or a big NPC out, which maybe it shouldn't be, you know, I guess it's analogous to a combat and any other system. - Actually, you guys took that, you two come down pretty quick. I mean, I-- - We did, we had a lot, I mean, at least I had a lot of fate points. - Which is a big thing, I mean, the fate, the fate points are very, very powerful in this game. You can make things happen that you want to have happen. - It is looser than I think I'm normally comfortable with. You know, speaking of someone who, you know, enjoys, usually enjoys, you know, rule trickers. I mean, I enjoy the free, you know, the free flow of ideas too. But then when that's happening, to me at least, it adds, it's, I guess it's just, I'm really troubled by it, in the sense that it's not troubled in a negative way, but troubled like to describe it. Like, at once again, I'm trying to come up with reasons that fit into my character. Do you use extra points to do something? So I feel like I'm out of the moment, but then I'm actually tapping things that are about my characters. I feel like I'm actually pulling myself back into the moment. So I guess it was just like a roller coaster ride for me. - It was a few to me, your character. - But it also forces me to talk inside the game. - Yeah, it taught, at least, and maybe it's just because we're new. And maybe I won't have to talk like that in the future. I'll just say, blah, blah, blah, and then we'll be there. So I guess I just want to try it some more and see what I like. But that's just one person's view. What do you guys think? I love it. What do you like about it? - That is a big thing. - Yeah. I don't know. I think just a wonderful system that allows a lot of people to contribute to what's going on. Not just in a play or something. - That's a valid creation. - It's a valid point. - You know, in creating the world, it's very, everybody's involved. And if you're not being involved, in the play of the game, it's almost your own fault. - Right. - There's too many options for you to be in there. - I would imagine, though, for somebody who doesn't know how to role play, for beginners, we've been playing the role playing for too long. - Yeah. - The longer that we all would care to admit, at least on the table. - The use would be zero at the end of it. - Yes. - Maybe a three. - And yeah, too many double digits to talk about. But long story short, you know, as someone who doesn't feel comfortable talking, you know, publicly doesn't really know the system. I think you might struggle a little bit with this is their first system. If they weren't, if they weren't outgoing and really embracing the whole role playing idea where in D&D or any other system, that's, you know, D&D specifically, you sit back and roll dice and you don't really have to role play all that much when you first start. - Yeah. That's one thing I have a concern with it is, as a gym, you have to be on to play. You can't just sit back and have a pre-scheduled events that are going to occur because they're not going to. - And you really don't have to lie. - You don't have so much power to change the flow of the game. - Yeah, the same thing. - That you have to react to that. - Right. - You can't be sleepwalking your way through a night's play. - No. - Because they gave me fall flat. - Yeah. - Which kind of happened last week, but that was my fault more than anything. - Well, right. But I mean, that's just, yeah, I mean, in this system, I could definitely see that, like, if I was running up, you know, a story here, you can't be flat. You have to be on that night. - You also get out what you put into it, and you can't really be a spectator, and you can't-- - You can be, but it's going to be like a-- - Well, you're right. - For sure. - We're right. The option to describe, you know, the kills or the knockouts or-- - Yeah, it's just a number and a dice roll, but I think just tonight, in adding more of that in there, we were getting more out of the game. - Sure. - I really think. - It's a big thing in World of Darkness, like in their-- in their storytelling section, like how to story tell at the end. Don't use numbers. You know, you didn't take three damage, you were-- I mean, you took three damage, or you took three wounds in World Darkness parlance. But, you know, it's a club to your shoulder, and you hear the dull smack, and you feel, you know, tendons, you know, bursting, and bones cracking, and whatever. And it does really invoke an image. It's got a weird dressing in the game itself. Dressing files. It has a weird dichotomy where one is, it is so open. I take a +2 minor consequence. What is that? - It could be anything. - Absolutely anything. - Right. - I have aspects to my character. Well, what are they? I'm gonna look in the book and choose from a list. They're not there. They are based on your character, make them the hell up. It is so wide open, but yet, there also seems to be this heavy reliance on certain aspects of the rules. Like, magic is very, it's still wide open. Like, you can describe the attacks as anything you want, but the rules are very... Yeah, you've got to bring up the power, then you have to bring up the control. And that has to be disciplined, and this has to be, you know... - Yeah. - I mean, it's weird, and that it seems like it's really hand-wavering in a lot of ways. Yet in other ways, it's really, really crunchy. - Right. - I think there's value, and I like lists, and I like my little boxes and stuff like that, but I think there's value, especially when you get into the what's a minor, what's a minor, what's a severe, and at least having some... - I didn't bring it out. - Over your boxes. - Well, at least... - No, they mean when you get to resolve the... - What's a minor? - Like, yeah, it's an example. - Well, it was funny that we said, okay, this guy's got bullet holes, but he also has the vapors because we have a minor thing to take care of. - Right. - This here is... I didn't bring it out, but I found that somewhere online, and what it is is, here's a minor, here's some examples. And if you don't totally draw a blank, I have a minor consequence, but what is that? That's a list of things that could be minor, and you could then choose something that's similar to those. But I think also, as you play more, you don't need that. - Right. - You go, oh, well, it's a minor, and, well, because of what's going on here, I get rock dust from the hall we're fighting in, in my eyes, and I can't see. - Right. - You can make it very specific to those times, just like the aspect, there's a learning curve. In this game, there's a learning curve. - Yes. More so maybe than in many games, because the system is playing. And one thing I think it'll actually, in an odd way, I think it'll actually help you guys as players in other systems, it's certainly my game in World of Darkness, where, yes, I hit 'em for three wounds, it's gonna invoke you to, in a combat sense, to describe your attacks more, and then in a role-playing sense, to develop the backstory of your characters a little bit more aggressively, just from what you've seen in the Dresden Files. Because you could incorporate that into any system, obviously, not in a crunchy sense of the rules here, but in a more fluff sense of, you know, just really fleshing out your characters' background, and see, and you've seen already how it makes for an enjoyable story in the Dresden Files. Now, I'm sure there's mechanics tied into it, but if you have a good storyteller in another system, they're gonna take those same points that you, bullet points that you made about your characters' background and use them, so I think it's actually gonna, like many things, make a stronger role-playing group, and we switch to other systems as well, based on some of the things we've been exposed to. One of the things I wanted to do this canon venture was because the game has such a big learning curve, and that to invest the time and effort for everybody to make their character, make up all the aspects, make up the city, make up all those things, when they never touch this game, and don't know the power of an aspect, don't understand how important they are, don't understand what a good aspect is, or how to use one, I think that's a waste of a scenario. Now that you've got this under your belt, you all have an idea of what a good aspect could be. Sure. What the power of an aspect is a negative thing to generate points, as well as spending points. You know, a broad one that allows you to spend it in a lot of different ways. Sure. All of those things, in addition to the point of when we make up a city, and you guys all have aspects, you know, Mike was asking me when he was fiddling around with the web page, what are we gonna call the next adventure? And I'm like, I have no idea, and I can't have any idea. And so you guys make up your characters, give me a list of aspects, and I sit down with all those aspects and go, "All right, which one of these play against each other, and which one of these are gonna make the most fun?" Right. Because that's the way an adventure should be made in this game is built in things that are dealing with your characters back. Oh, sure, absolutely. The aspects that you wrote should be things to me saying, "This is what I want to do." And as the GM, I should be taking those and making the whole adventure based on those. But that's where I see this. It's greatest strength, it's greatest weakness. And so, we're back to the GM's got to be on. It's a requirement. Well, I think everyone has to be on. And I think that there is value in knowing the books. Yeah, the background is not a lot, but, you know, so at least the feel of how the books are to kind of inform how you might use those aspects and how you might-- How do you point that everybody would be on the same page? Right. And I also would submit that, you know, I would think it would be difficult if Dresden was your first RPG. Well, like Scott, yeah. Yeah, I did mention that, but it's a good point. It's tough to walk into this one. I think-- And get started up. Yeah. To your point about the Dresden, you know, I think Scott's someone here who hasn't read the Dresden books. Well, he doesn't seem firefly either. It's just a crime. Ooh, Scott, one out. Yeah. And then, my point is, though, if you didn't read the Dresden books, I think you make it your world anyways, because as we mentioned, we were talking earlier, that you could use it for the last air binder. This meta system-- Yeah. Absolutely perfect. Because, you know, you could use it for anything. You could use the system to drift it into any, you know-- Yeah. I think that's my point in the way is, you know, I was speaking specific before when I said the system was a first-- this would be a tough first system. I was speaking very specifically on a certain level role players who were maybe less outgoing. But Mike, I think Mike's point in general that this would be a tough system to step into for the first time is even more on point. Because, could you imagine, you know, a first time GM and first time players trying to put this together? I-- Well, yeah, because if you have unseasoned players, everybody's got their own idea of what the world should be, and then we go in in all different directions and the GM can be fighting to keep some kind of control. And just trying to juggle-- I'm not saying, I'm not saying, well, professionals. But I mean, anybody who's played a game or two knows more than someone who first comes in. And I don't think it is a starter game. Well, no, it's definitely not. And it also reminds me that the thing about World of Darkness, the thing about the Dresden Files is something that, you know, I am disconnected a little bit from the character sheet other than to do certain things. Like, I've got some skills, I've got some abilities, but I don't really find myself referring to them other than to know what my character would do and try to act in that way. More so in World of Darkness that I almost, you know, we've got experience points that we've never spent because we're not-- Right. We just don't. I'm more into the character than in it to get into it. Right. Whereas in this one, I think it's neat having to try to build up some fade points because, you know, my character was so weighted and supernatural, so I didn't really have a lot of freedom or options with my fade points because I only had one, which is, that's my thing. I was a machine. You're a powerful thing, but yeah. But that's it. My thing is being a wolf. And in a while, I think this was a good first step into the system for everybody to get it. I also think that every one of you could have better aspects than you did. Some of them you were handed, which, what the hell do you do with white court emo virgin? Right. But I've had an arrow. Every one of you had the same one, which was-- You did so much for your snarl. You did a lot of snarl. I never tapped that one. It was the highest one. I never tapped it once. Right. I'm like, what do I use that for? I'm not dealing with any of my-- Right. And even in their description of how to write a good-- and sorry about whoever wrote this adventure or their list. Or your not. But I don't think that's a good aspect. And it was one that you were given. Or at least, let's-- At least not for this one. When they describe how to do aspects, they give a good example, which is, you know, you just don't say, well, snarl. You know, isn't really-- They go through stops and they say, this is a good one. This is a better one. And this is one is on fire. This is a fantastic-- I think they actually use it for you. Right. But this is a fantastic aspect because it has not only things that you can tap, but it's got history and it implies relationship. And you know, so it's much more than just snarl. It's, you know-- Right. Well, as a neat exercise, I've been watching some mold movies with the kids or whatever. And as I'm watching these, some fan favorite movies like Raiders of the Lost Art, it's really kind of easy through dialogue and actions to pick out aspects. Which is funny because I mentioned that in the book that you will start doing that. And when you play Dresden, you'll be going through an neighborhood going, yeah, I can see this. This is over here. This is that. And this is, you know, picking out pieces of the city and assigning aspects to them or assigning, you know, game value to them or, yeah, listening to a character say certain things and going, "His aspect." What do you mean? Snakes, Jack. I hate them. Right. There's an accent. You know, trust me. This is that, you know, is it trust or is it not at all? It belongs in a museum. Right. Oh, that's a good one. You know, yeah, so you start seeing, and you can do with Star Wars. You can do it, but it's a neat exercise to see these iconic characters who are using the Joseph Campbell Heroes journey, but to find aspects for yourself. And I was thinking of that. I think the harder aspect is to find is the negative one. The one that defines your character but still gets you into trouble by doing it. But it's a necessary thing because you need the faith points like you, you know, you need, you start with one, you need more. And it's, that's the hard part is finding that perfect aspect. And well, you know, people, you know, characters who have flaws and have things to overcome are usually more interesting than paragons of virtue. Which, you know, I think we'll do it like that. Okay, it's a calladism night. So this sort of is coming from a white cross. I know. That's a bull. I think just calladism is a rock. It's a rock, man. Hi, everyone. This is Neil from the Nerd Bound podcast, the world's sexiest RPG podcast. Nerd Bound is a weekly actual play podcast featuring sessions of Dungeons, Dragons, 4th edition, New World and Dark Sun campaigns, Warhammer 40K RPGs, including Rogue Trader and Deathwatch, Trail of Cthulhu, Wild Towns, and more. But that's not all. The podcast is literally jam-packed with sultry banter, and innuendos. In your innos. So if you like double-on-tondras, ridiculous conversations, and max-maxing your entertainment, download Nerd Bound via iTunes, or your favorite podcast aggregator, or share in the font on our forums by visiting us at www.nerdbound.com. But I would... I think... I'm sorry, why I'm trying. The more adventures you go through, the more worthwhile the city creation process was. Because your adventures change in the city. Well, you do think this was? That really sucked. We're doing it once. One adventure, and then we're on to yours, and it's short on that. But, I mean, if we don't come back to it. It really sucked. It feels, though. Like, now that we've got it, it's here. Yeah. And it also feels like this is college in advanced degree level stuff. Whereas the other stuff was high school stuff. And it feels a lot... It needs a middle school. Well... But, because we were playing it that way. Sure. And now, like, okay, some of the elements and some of the interactions and what are the stuff that we do, I think would be neat to translate over, you know, back to there, or to something else. But... I still see that the entire story grinding to an incredible halt when you have the combat in 4E. You know, that's the only qualm. I don't think... You don't think it can be helped by hand waving or sped up in any way? The whole heritage design is about combat. It's a combat system. Yeah. It happens. When you get to combat everything stops, and it's 30 minutes, so it's your turn again. And it's like a million times that I think... Like, when you play 4E, you're playing two different games. Yeah. There's a social interaction part, and then there's the miniature combat. Well, it became a miniature game. Yeah. Actually, it became a pen and paper version of a computer game. Every single power in there, though, is crucially and intricately tied to an advanced and everything. Which can't you take a battle map out of that game anymore? Well, it reminded me of a... I would rather be playing this on a computer than playing it out of the table. It completely frustrates me is, in that game, it is vitally important that you can only move 4 squares instead of 5. When I prefer this type of game, in World of Darkness, where... It's a nebulous "Yeah, you're there, okay, I have to move around this side." There's never "Oh, I came up one square short." My entire world is fun. What do you want to bring this out to you? And you know what it is? Because you like the... The story telling aspect, but... About D&D in particular. You like the... I like the structure of the characters and the structure of the setting. I wasn't as interested in the combat as to what it became. I like the idea of what they did with the powers and all that. And if you could apply those powers as... Kind of like how we did in World of Darkness, where... You know, I know a cult and I know lore and I have a chance to... Do I really know it or do I fail? And we were rolling a lot of dice in World of Darkness, and we rolled a lot of dice here, although the dice were different here. I just... And I think even one of our reviewers on the World of Darkness is like, "I thought you guys went all hippie game around me or whatever you said." It was actually World of Darkness. Yeah, there was a night where we didn't roll a dice the entire night. We just talked and did things. And he's like, "Well, I thought you guys went all, you know..." I can't remember if it was hippie or arty, you know, archemy or whatever. You just didn't roll dice the entire night." And I'm like, "Well, that's a strange form of elitism." Yeah. Well, it wasn't elitism, it was just... He just thought we were getting all... I mean, there are games out there that amber dice lists role-playing system. It's past the stick, story time, which I'm not denigrating. I never played it, so I don't know. But to go back to one point that was mentioned before, which is making it worth the effort, there's one podcast I listened to and I want to give them a shout out at its actual people, actual play, in which they played a Dresden. And they didn't just play one campaign, they played multiple. And the GM said, "The second one was just... it just flowed." I mean, you went right from the first one into the second one and you kept going. The stories were feeding on themselves. The characters and all the work that had been done in the beginning absolutely fed to the next campaign. And not the campaign, it was the same character. It was like the story one ended and flowed right into story two and there was no setup time. Everything was for him much easier because it's just organic process that the characters grow. Which you look at the fact that you spend all that time and effort building the city and all your characters. I think it would be a shame if we stop with this one and then throw it away. I would just try to trust it again. But we enjoy other systems as well. And we'd like to mix all those in there. At some point I'd like to get back into player's seat as well. I don't mind GM and then else guy gets an urge to GM. Well, I don't feel like I'd ever wanted GM in Dresden. No. No, I don't get the sense that... And I, in a way, I'm afraid of the difficulty. Are you afraid of the difficulty? I don't think it's your style. Yeah. You're more structured. My favorite part about this game... It's not a bad thing. No. But, you know, listen. My adventure is to take the ring to the mountaintop and throw it into the volcano where it was forged. Right. And no flying on the eagles. Right. No easy path. You're gonna say yeah? That organic process, they mentioned where the characters mold the stories. They go along and the characters change and so does the story. That's, I think, the strength and the best part about the system. In our game at home, Mark ended the story. We killed the god and he's like, "Well, I know I got into trouble. I caused this trouble by my need for power and then he gobbled the heart of the god and gave him some superpowers." That's gonna cause some troubles in the next campaign. And he made his own trouble. Right. Yeah. But it wasn't even me holding up the point and going. Right. I mean you always want more power. No, it was Mark's character. He's like, "To be fair, I really want the heart out." He's loving. You know, and I agree that that is the good, that is the strength and it is the neat part. What? It would be hard for you to do. Well, it's not that it's hard for me to do. I guess it's... On appealing? Couldn't... I find this part... It's taxing. Just... Right. It's exhausting. My dynamic is a little bit different now. Yeah. And my thought process being is what happens if... This isn't so much for John and Thomas right now because they're gonna be due to World of Darkness when they step in. And that happens if the second story in World of Darkness were Katie and Jonathan and Michael. What if their stories start to evolve on their own? You know, as we work towards the end and you didn't have to put in as much time and effort, would it then... It would obviously lessen the impact of... At least from my perspective, it would lessen the impact of great rolling, organic stories in this system because it took so much time up front to do it here. So I'm just wondering what's gonna happen if World of Darkness... You've got some pretty well developed characters in that system without having it gone through this whole process. I agree. It's necessary. But I agree. But the aspects... Yeah. I'm intriguing that they are just what your characters are. Right. They change too. And they change over time and they fuel your actions. And that... But so it's an old point. That's not an old... Yeah. But that's not a built-in mechanic of World of Darkness. That is something that you've got to add yourself. Yeah. This forces you to go down that path. Right. I think a good exercise, and especially in the prep of this kind of game, if I was gonna play or run it, is to watch a popular movie or TV show and write down the aspects. You know, the hooker with the heart of gold. You know, and I always wanted like a list of aspects to kind of see, okay, I know it's a little more plug and shug, but we've suffered hours of trying to find aspects for everyone and how they inter... I like how you chose "suffered" as an adjective. I'm sorry. No, I agree. Honestly, honestly, I had a headache a few times living here. Yeah. That we were just like, "Oh my god, this is exhausting." Well, after the third or fourth aspect, I'm like, "I have enough to go play it." Why do I have to aim seven? That's the one thing... And why do I have to aim for me if I play it in it and listening to people play it in another podcast is I have five, six aspects and everybody else here has five or six aspects. The story has five or six aspects. The locations have aspects. I can't remember all those to be able to tap those when I need those. But that becomes fun and that becomes fun. You know, it does interrupt the flow if we're going to talk about flow. But that's why I would want to go like watching "Star Wars" with a little paper to write these aspects, just to kind of, they're still good in them. There's all these different things that... I think we have to really give it two or three stories in one setting. Could you imagine trying to do this city setup and all of these characters without having that first canned adventure we had? No, I've been really difficult. Without having that... I didn't believe it when you said it. I didn't believe it when you said it. How the game works. Just that introduction and giving you the knowledge you... You're a role-playing for 30 years, we're really... Professional role player? You're trying to come on. We know how to do this. But that's what I mean by why I say that this feels like an advanced or you have to be... This is grad-good level. I'm sure there's kids out there that are playing it. We got younger people here playing it. Am I a 11-year-old at all? We're not all grog-dards, but it requires a level of commitment that I was... The interesting thing is, though, that the game can scale. That 11-year-old I have at home, we can build a character that he can be the 11-year-old he wants to be. And his aspects still fit him. And he can do the irrational things that a 11-year-old will do. Because they're less socially adept at how they just want to try crazy things. Because this is just a game, right? Where you've got other people that are more serious and want to play it. And both those things can exist. His character can be designed in a such a way that... That's the way his character is. There are bits... There are bits that are a bit over the top, sure. Yeah, that annoy the other players. They're awesome. Well, that's why you're here to... I mean, not denigrating Mark, but you could be for more of a... This is a story we're going to tell, where with Mark, it's more of a game we're going to play. It's been a game where I am a woman. Well, that happens all the time. I mean, did you have a pizza golem one time? Oh, yeah. I don't know, they just completely knocked me out of my... Whatever zone or comfort, I felt like... I like to see it was the pizza that... The calzone golem. That was a calzone. Yeah, a calzone. A calzone? It was just like... I didn't even... Were you the pizza hook done? No, I got that from... Was it a coast? Yeah, it was one of their candidates. No, it was amazing, wasn't it? Was it one of the dozen dragons magazines? No, it was from which it was a coast. I think we were slacking a cat that day. It was a free online came adventure. Oh, that's what it was, yeah. That's like the... I remember reading one time in Dragon, the plus three chain sword. You know, it's a special slayer of ants and entrees. It was like a giant sword, it was a... No, no, no, no, this is a chainsaw. And just like, really? No, it took me a minute. That's why dinosaurs do napa long in D&D. Anyways, close the arms. Because they had low... Well, no, it's just the same... Okay. It breaks the... Oh, immersion. Yeah, immersion. I don't like it. Immersion. Immersion. Look at that! I will wrap it up with that. Thank you, guys. Well, thank you. Thanks for listening to Nights at the Night at Actual Play Podcast. Visit kotnpodcast.com for more information on this and other adventures. Where you will find character stats, photos, storytelling props, and even a forum for comments and suggestions. Or you could email us directly at feedback@kotnpodcast.com. Or contact us via Twitter, or leave a message on Facebook. All music for this podcast was created and performed by Zen Audio Smith. If you'd like custom professional music created for your podcast or business, please visit ZenAudioSmith.com. And please, join us next episode for more Vistri and Adventurer. ♪♪ So, I think Scott's someone here who hasn't read the drives in books. Well, he doesn't seem far flight either. It's just a crime. Ooh, Scott.