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We're going into heatwave season here in Louisiana 113 heat index all next week. I'm super super stout, dude. It sucks. Today, I have a pretty fun episode, right? So okay, so my dad, Major Payne, reached out to me a while back and said that he had read the unseen realm by Dr. Heiser, which was quite shocking to me. If congregation members are familiar, you kind of know my dad's spiritual leanings, Presbyterian, that sort of thing. I think it was on G's episode one or two, and then another episode where we talked about open theology with Josh Patterson and them. So it was very cool that he read it, and I said, "Well, what did you think?" And he said, "Well, let's do a phone call about it." Then he said he had a friend in his small group that also read it, and so we decided to do a Zoom call about it. And then I both ambushed them and said, "Hey, can I record this conversation?" And this is the result. So it is me, Major Payne, and his friend Justin, and we are discussing their thoughts on the unseen realm. So buckle up, people. Send me an email, churchanotherdrugsgmail.com. The email Jellicles episode four is out on patreon.com/churchanotherdrugs. Go check that out and see you. Oh, go see Deadpool and Wolverine. That's it. [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] It is becoming more widespread, I noticed. How did you get introduced to it, Justin? I can't remember at this juncture. So my sister recently converted to Catholicism and the Orthodox Church. We grew up like very traditional Southern Baptist all of our lives. And she just joined this and that's kind of, oh man, that sacrilege going on right there. That's a big problem. But her husband introduced me to this podcast called "The Lord of Spirits." And he said, "Just listen to it. How I describe it is it describes the math behind what they're doing. Is it idolatry when they're praying to Mary? Well, you kind of have to know what their vocabulary is, what they're dealing with with everything. Is that what their words mean something different? Is that what the Orthodox preached? Yes, yes. Okay. His church is in my town. Oh, really? What town are you in? Lafayette, Louisiana. Oh, okay. Let's go sometime. Okay. Yeah. So this is on my podcast. I talked about, I had this band member that the entire, it was this old Christian band called Luxury. And half of the members became Orthodox priests later, just a weird coincidence. So I had one of them on, talked about Orthodoxy and this listener just wrote me and was like, "Hey, you know, you're, because I've talked about church seeking and all that." And he's like, "Hey, you know, I listened to this podcast, "Lord of Spirits." And I just realized that the guy who does it is in Lafayette, Louisiana. And I had previously looked for Orthodox churches around here, and that was the only one. But I was like, "Ah, I don't know." And then, yeah. So that's very odd coincidence. Yeah. Well, let me just back up a second, because Justin, did you say she's going to an Orthodox Catholic church? She's the little fickle. So she was Catholic, and then now she's Orthodox. She changed his frequent. Yeah, that's because they're different. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, they're definitely different. But the podcast is, you know, two Orthodox priests that are putting it on. Right. And he brought up a whole lot of, "Hey, we're, a lot of the theme is, "Hey, we're really missing in our modern understanding of scripture, "some of the stuff that's going on here, and we don't quite have the full picture, just with how stuff has evolved over the years." One of the things being like a sacrifice is always a meal enjoyed between you and your God. Like, I'd never really thought about that before. You kind of weigh that against scripture, and a lot of times like that's what you see. There's, there is a whole lot of sacrifice, talk, and it's mainly meals. You'd have Abraham eating meals with the angel of the Lord. And so that opened up a, kind of a rabbit hole of diving into that. And somehow or another, I wish I could remember how I ran across Heiser. But he mirrored a lot of this stuff, but coming from a not Orthodox perspective, hearing somebody else kind of talk about some of the other stuff that I'd heard. It, it picked my interest for sure. Yeah. He, he's definitely, it's kind of like all, like, I would say he is the C.S. Lewis of this subject. Probably just because he did, he's so academic about it. So it's not coming from like a fruit fruit. Like, it's, he's literally like, "Hey, this is," and I guess he doesn't even necessarily make explicit belief claims necessarily, but he's just like, "Hey, this is absolutely what the near, near Middle Eastern first century people, this is what they believed." And it was like well known. It wasn't even a question. It was, if you, it would be like somebody referencing Harry Potter, like someone saying like, "Oh, let's go play Quidditch." Everybody knew what Quidditch was. Like, that sort of thing. And it, it does. It changes a whole lot of things, especially the, the mission of Jesus thing was one of the biggest revelations I got where him, like the, the gates of hell being like a stronghold that got broken down and got, and Jesus sort of doing this spiritual victory march through very specific geographical locations. And yeah, I am curious to the, so dad, you learned about it from Justin or from me. Okay. What made you finally want to read that though? Yes. Because he would talk so much about it. And I started on, on Facebook, the, the same, the podcast that she's mentioned, they have a Facebook page. So I read, I read that stuff on Facebook. And growing up Catholic, I've always said, always felt like I went from Catholic, I became Christian in a Baptist church, Justin, and then conservative Presbyterian. But especially Baptist, I felt like Catholics still have a lot of, they honor a lot of the mystery about God, that, that Baptist kind of just don't deal with. It's like, it's very matter of fact, not very dimensional. It's good, but they don't, there's not a lot of, they don't like mystery. They don't like unanswered questions. They don't like, I don't, I'm not sure how that works. So that kind of appealed to me. When you were talking about it, it's like, well, I remember that as a kid in the Catholic church. Like, for example, on a Catholic church, when you come in and sit down and wait, ready for mass, you don't talk. Because that's very implied because you're there before on altar, which is considered holy. So it's a whole different mindset about the whole worship experience. Mm hmm. So that's why. So what I think you go ahead, sorry. I think I think you bring up a good point where. Some of the mystery of it, some of the magic is kind of the best word that I can come up with, even though I don't think that's exactly the right word for it. Is lost in some of this and some of the like, wow, this is really a lot deeper, a lot richer, a lot more alive and well than what we're kind of giving it credit for. And some of the stuff that we just gloss over quickly, you can really find a whole lot of richness in it by diving into it a little bit more. Yeah, yeah, the book of Enoch being one of them, right? And that was another thing. Well, dad is laughing. That was enough. I'm saying that only because if we in our church, we have life groups of color. We just did. First Peter, and first Peter quotes from talks and stuff and then also, you know, Genesis and how they're quoting, essentially from the book. Enoch, which is a pop apocryphal, right? It's not considered canon, but it's considered interesting historical literature that kind of helps that kind of stuff. The fact that this linked into the New Testament is very interesting, but I will say, I'm going to say wrong, the front end of this, dude, what I was really worried about was where he was going with this whole, especially bringing in Enoch in regards to what Jesus, who was Jesus. And I'm saying this because I'll just zip right ahead to my biggest fear was that, let me back up. This whole thing is kind of, it does kind of awaken you to, if there's a realm of spirit, spirit, if you say, little jig gods everywhere and they have territories and they have a minion. And their ability to do things and they would be worshipped from the ancients, which is rewatching for the last 15 time money. And in that movie, the mummy, they're showing the series where they're passing this one guy to eternal death and gods, these things, spirits come up and stuff, you know, and in the movie it was all fantastical. But the site was that was it really was there are there really did they were they really able the priest of ancient Egypt, able to call it where they worshiping spirits who had power. And this would suggest that they do. Now I will say that the thing that got gets me nervous is if I was Satan and I wanted to undermine Christianity, the best way I would do it was to introduce a parallel fault Christianity, which to me is the Mormon church. And if you talk about Joseph Smith and what he did and his revelation from the seer stone. It's like there were spirits talking to him and they created a whole other set of books that parallel and they were really big into the apocrypha they're really big into the neck. But that but this explains that. Yeah, I know I know I know it's because I was worried the Mormons clearly say that God the spirit of the Holy Spirit and Jesus are three separate things there is no such thing as a three in one Trinity flat out no we would say no no they are one God Jesus is God. He says it to either says that very clearly which was like I was I relaxed. Yeah, the more and the Mormon church is ridiculous I went there. It's so silly do you know a fun fact Joseph Smith is the only presidential candidate to have been assassinated successfully. There you go. Yep, yep. Him and his brother got shot trying to escape prison by an angry mob. Yes, that's very good enough. So, no, so, yeah, I understand it's to me this was the story that explains every it literally like it explains everything to me. Because it's like if you look at the world and the history of civilizations and every single culture has a pantheon of gods. Most civilizations tell this story of either gods angelic beings talking animals descending down imparting some sort of sacred knowledge being worshiped. In most in most stories they are the heroes right the Genesis is really the only one where they like the Epic of Gilgamesh is the best example where you know Gilgamesh is the hero but Genesis makes it a polemic and says hey you all know this creation story but it turns out those are actually the bad guys. Well yes and keep in mind if you think about all the pantheon of gods that they had they weren't a nice group of people they think about the Greek gods constantly murdering each other jealousy you know well and that's that is the story of what happened to the Nephilim so that brings me to and I guess Justin like do you believe that there was a race of giants begotten from angels or Elohim mating with human women. I mean I yeah totally I think that there's multiple spots in scripture where that's kind of evident and a whole lot of the conquest of the Promised Land was getting those people out of there. So I think there's a pile of spots that you can point to and say yeah this is what that's talking about. So I read somewhere I think that in some of the conquest stories when the spies came back and said that we were like grasshoppers. Someone said that they were perhaps like they were scared and they were perhaps like hey maybe we can convince them that they're Nephilim because everybody knew about this these famed giant clans and they're like hey maybe we'll just tell them that it's them even though it wasn't they were just scared. I've heard that was one theory of it but dad what about you well they've got the the og where you've got his bed laid out and it's it's humongous it was like 16 feet or something. I know Glyphick gets brought up as the most famous giant but there's a another person from Gadd another one of those civilizations that used the giant technology so to speak. And that guy ended up with six fingers and six toes on his on his hand on his hands and feet so there's a bunch of that in there that you you kind of have to know what you're you gotta you kind of have to look for the context clues to know hey this might be hinting at that because it just doesn't come right out and say it every time that pay these are giants. And I do this is where I think I can see what you're saying dad about because it almost the implication is that without proper background you cannot plain read scripture and get the full story. That's that's a somewhat of an implication not I don't think that takes away from anything but it it does kind of imply that there's just hundreds of years of truncated teaching. Oh, okay. What but I wanted to hear what where do you land on the the watcher giant Nephilim story being true. It's one of those things Genesis has always been a big question mark that you go to and then you kind of just back away from because there's no answer right so it's like where did the rest once Noah and his family emerged from the how do they populate from that small segment of people how do they populate the entire earth. Then you know I've read things like the Neanderthals versus the chromagons that there were there were primitive humanoid types that they made it with and that's that you know that's kind of what happened there. But this is this is an interesting perhaps and it definitely does answer the question when it says Nephilim and it clearly says they were Nephilim and I've always you know the whole story of David and Goliath from from a childhood Goliath has always been pictured as really big. And apparently he had brothers as well that's not I don't know but you know I can see where they the Philistines brought him out he was one of maybe the last of the one. Well and then there's you know we won't get into this part of it but there you know the theory is that the bloodline still remains somehow. That's that's kind of where I get off the bus these days but so another thing that it does bring up is that which this is a pretty big difference is that God sending the flood wasn't necessarily because of Adam sin but it was because of the sin of the watchers so that is a pretty big. I don't know that that necessarily changes anything but but that's a big difference. I don't think I've never heard that the flood was the result of Adam's sin Adam sin resulted in the expulsion from the guard. The generations the whole the whole mankind had to be sunk to depravity so how and who they were being to pray with that's an open question. Well it wasn't mankind though it was it mankind was basically being like preyed upon. Well but they were participating you know and they were all in it together so to me was just let me back up one thing before I want to finish answering you know my but I think about this whole thing. I don't think anything the reason I'm comfortable with this I don't think this has to it's in any way any conflict with New Testament theology I don't think yet I don't think this really will not believe in this or believe in it will will stop them from you know with the spirit realizing Christ as their Savior so to me it's just it's just additional enrichment and like it answers it feels and gaps that we kind of just skirted around politely because no one knows you're going to the next thing so it's all good in that respect. Yeah no that that's right I think it that's why I like I like your church because I would especially in you know whatever age we are in now I don't know if you can hear Ruthie. The spiritual aspect of Christianity and the supernatural aspects are getting pushed down you know which is always odd to me that people some people will be like yeah I'm okay with Christ rising from the dead but like that's the extent of any supernatural supernatural stuff I'm going to believe in it's like well I mean that's pretty wild. Let me tell you and from my when I was a teenager became a Christian and a Baptist church. There was a big let me back up in the 70s and late 70s there was really in retrospect a national revival that was occurring that was close to the Great Awakening the Jesus movement it was. Was that before after satanic panic or during or same time. It was a praying to it. It opened people's mind to it because in our church literally we had this we had it we had a during a revival a guy came and talked about Satan and how he is in your life and you have to watch for him and you can catch him and say Satan get the behind me because you have the power of Christ with you. You have buttons and we would come back and say I caught Satan. So there was the recognition and also the moment of the old is the big movie that came in at the old man rosemary's baby rosemary's baby but then the exorcist. The exorcist. So there was a great significant focusing on there is evil and there's evil spirits but that's not as far away. Well and also that and this is the only scriptural apocryphal explanation of where demons come from which that is also interesting. It's one of those like when you ask Christians who is Satan what are angels what are demons what's they will give you these answers that are wrong. And that's interesting to me it's like no actually or when you press the okay where did you where did you pull that from scripture and it's not there. I did most of the stuff about Satan. Have you ever read the Quran or read any of it. Read the parts about Satan and I was surprised to learn that a lot of the like him being in the choir him being beautiful him falling that's all in the Quran. And all that I was like oh so that's that's where we're getting that from so that was interesting to me. Well that might be I think it's parallel because that whole thing about Satan being beautiful and and egotistical and you know thought himself better than God. That's ancient Christian tradition. Right but not scriptural. Tell me next. Well it's also the the the spot in Isaiah where they're talking about he was the shining morning star before he fell. Right right what kind of mirrors that. I go go check it out you'll see what I wish I had like the exact things to pull up but as I was like oh oh oh like it's very interesting and that's. I like seeing the Torah Quran in the Bible and their similarities that really kind of reaffirms like oh okay so this is the story like this is it. But I just the difference being Christ is the Messiah and therefore ever that that but it's. Which by the way if I'm just going and that to me is another example of. Satan creating another you know with Muhammad and all that with it was like a parallel version of competition with and in fact is striving to destroy so it's like. Well and so the person of Satan is something I've also become very confused about in regards to. Like when and where he comes into the picture and. You know it's it's like inference that he is the serpent in the garden that there's just a lot of things that are like attributed to him just finding out that it's it is not as clear as I thought. That you actually like you know that he is the hositon is just a court appointment it's the accuser and then you have Job and all that craziness that's going on in Job and he's. You know basically working for God. Yeah that's. Yeah that's always that's always bothered me we're not allowed to see God's face or will die but. Satan's just walking into God's throne room and calling God a liar and that's that's fine. Yeah yeah but. And maybe it's more complicated than all that maybe that is an actual like hey he's the prosecutor in God's. Heavenly court. He might have stepped out a lot in there but he might not be the. Our main evil figure but you know we've also got. As azole we've got. We got a we got a pile of leviathan names. And the hemat all the. Oh a ball ball. And yeah so that I have always said to. That. Hey. Okay. Oh. It only makes sense to me that there is true spiritual power behind. Religions, cults, magic, sorcery like I don't think humans are dumb. I don't think they would fall for these things if there was not actual spiritual power behind them and. That is explained in. The story of the of the tower of babble when. Everyone got split up and everybody there's. And it makes the geographic location thing makes sense too because there's these places on earth that are like the Middle East that are just. Constantly in turmoil. It's the epicenter. Yeah. And you know I never thought about and this is something. When Justin was talking about the symbolism. That he brings out hydragons out about Pentecost was like. At the tower of babble tower babble he divided the nations in the languages. Pentecost he brought them together and they were all hearing the same language for the first time he was bringing that back. It was restoring what had been broken. That is cool. And I've also called the internet the new tower of babble and perhaps we are not supposed to be united in this way. That's a very confusing story also. And I'm also this you know this these stories peak my interest of ancient advanced civilizations and the megaliths around the world. Like the mysteries of the earth and these giant structures and how did they make them. And once again and I also tend to trust native people. And so like when you ask these people or what is written like hey how did you know how to build this. They're just like oh this God told me and it's like oh okay but everyone's like oh these silly dumb humans. And it's like ah maybe they're just telling the truth. You know. All right with that. Yes. Yeah it does. She's getting squirmy warm. We like to think that we're the pinnacle of all society and all civilization. But you kind of dive into the pyramids and how just absolutely exact that they are. Yeah. And the mirroring of the pyramid. Versus the ones in South America. So it's a lot of weird coincidences if it's coincidence. And I had to read this but I immediately thought of you you know Carson Tucker. Tucker Carlson. Tucker Carlson. Yeah I was like Carson Tucker that's a new one. Yes I do. So you know they're kind of like they being some of the progressive press are making fun of him because these come out and said he believes that some of the UFOs are angels and demons. Which really is kind of over there. Potentially. They're like oh come on. Well and there there's just. There is a lot of interesting things if you kind of look at a macro and I'm not going to say they are aren't but you look at something like okay so. And it always talks about the the days of no it'll be like the days of Noah right so if we had. This watcher incursion way back in the day giant explosion of technology you can kind of think of the Atlanta Smith where giant explosion of technology super advanced society. Gets flooded wiped out and some of the myth is that the survivors of Atlantis are the ones that started these new civilizations like solo people and they restarted. Then you have something like the dark ages right and you have things in scripture like Satan being bound and then all of a sudden. Once again you have like the nuclear age and you have this explosion of technology and advancement and and all these things that coincide with it the UFO sightings start during the nuclear age when we detonated more nuclear bombs on earth than ever and. Does that affect a spiritual realm like does setting off a nuclear bomb in the desert did we blow up a major city in a parallel dimension. You know that's a little much but. It's like is it happening you know. Yeah is it happening again was the dark ages of time when all those spirits were like bound or something and. I don't know there's just it's it's it's definitely fun to think about. But I also. The core of it. I believe it's just absolutely true. I always do though my. And it's a common. Counter argument to Christianity is sort of like why does God even. Why why does Satan even try. Why does God let this like. Why does God let this happen can angels rebel again. And I asked heiser that straight up and he's and he was like there's nothing that says they can't. Which is a very you know that's kind of a. Scary thought. Because it's like if we're in if we're in heaven in the hereafter would have somehow they decide to do something again. Yeah it is. Do you ever see the movie city of angels. No that's the Sarah McLachlan song. It's a it's a very that yeah it's it's about the Nephilim basically it's the story. It's the angels around us who are there. And then he falls in love with a woman. Yeah but that well yes but he's not an ethnom but. But anyway bottom line was that not yet. Yeah. Oh yeah sorry he's a watcher he's a watcher. Well the guardian angels that we each have a guardian angel and process like oh come on. But there's that too. I believe that. Angels are there like they should have seen a traffic control and the guy is kind of drifting off into angels and is kind of hoax and they look at the screen and he looks at the screen. It's that kind of thing you know and it's you need to watch that movie because it's okay. There's a if you. I mean guardian angels are in the New Testament. Talk about that directly. I think we just never mention it in the Protestant church. I think we can agree dad that I a hundred percent have guardian angels. I think I think that is a proven fact. It's funny watching this is another thing too where it's kind of like Joseph Campbell here with a thousand faces. Knowing this story it's everywhere up all of Marvel comics any comics the superheroes any mythological tales. Oh goodness. And I lost my train of thought because she was crying. Oh wonder have you seen Wonder Woman. Oh have you Justin. I have not. Okay well there was just it's you know it's a it's a whatever movie but there's one scene that I was like oh that is exactly how I envision it where Aries the God of War it shows him throughout history as a spirit whispering in the ears of Nazi scientists and then the scientists kind of looks up and it's like oh and then he goes to make like Xyclon or Xylon the gas or whatever and it's like that's kind of how I would imagine it kind of exactly what you're saying but the opposite. Yeah. So how does this fit in with Calvinist belief I would say it or does it is there any conflict. I don't I don't see any conflict. Personally and by the way Justin you have to understand how difficult this is for me to be watching trying to talk about watching my granddaughter who is 12 hours away. I know hey at least you get to see her. That's true. Yeah. I don't I don't really see any conflict at all it's it is. You know we're talking about the whole issue of choice and and and free will and and my viewpoint is we have free will all the time we can do we're free to do anything right now that we want and that's our free will. My salvation is you know. To me it became a southern Baptist. It was all about me raising my hand but now more and more I believe I'm reformed where the spirit of. Open something to me and drew me to God and so things I could see along the way. We're like moving me in that direction so you know is that your mom always struggles is that fair why does he choose someone other. Yeah and this is a kind of a bad answer but our preacher and Florida said it and our preacher just said it this past Sunday reality is anyone who declares you know calling on the name of Jesus to be saved will be saved. Yeah it's I it's funny I had that discussion I think yesterday is is just the idea of God creating people for hell is extraordinarily problematic and I guess the idea of that and that's what I was going to segue was. Are we an agreeance that the fiery lake of fire version of hell is reserved for the watchers yeah these eternal beings. If I'm and I don't know Justin we haven't had this conversation I don't say it very loudly Justin but I am definitely I am definitely an annihilationist I don't think an internal torment. I think there'll be a final judgment but it will be a destruction because the wages of sins death. The you know the so the gift of Jesus eternal life so eternal death is really a form of life so it doesn't make sense to me so that kind of is in a weird way. It makes it easier if you will to say you know it's like it's like it's like it's like to an atheist today well at the end when you die you die that's right. There's and once again movies that terrible movies that actually give good representations there's a movie called gods of Egypt I don't know if you've seen that one. There's a scene where in Egyptian mythology when you die you wait in a line and your heart is weighed against a feather on this thing and if your heart weighs more than the feather like your sins then you get annihilated. And so it's just this long line of people and they're seeing the people ahead of them just walk into this portal and just just burst into trillions of pieces and like the terror on their faces of like oh my. Oh no like this is this is it it and that's why I'm really hoping that there's and God is just I'm sure everyone is going to get a legitimate chance. There's just there's just no way around that I don't think for I for justice to be true I don't think there's any way that someone would not get a informed choice. I don't buy the whole the whole idea that hey some people were just created for God to punish I just I don't think that's, I don't think that's scripture I think it's also kind of a bad reading of Calvinism to like you're kind of painting them in a bad. A bad mode to describe it that way but correct me for sure for sure how heiser. Heiser's description of free will versus God's for knowledge I thought was one of the most fascinating parts of the book where God could he brought up the story where David was running from Saul. If I stay in this city will Saul overtake the city yep that's what's going to happen like God God says that's what's going to happen so David leaves. Well the thing God said was going to happen never happened because David left. Yeah yeah it's like God foreknew what was going to happen even though it didn't happen because David used this free will to change up what was what was going to happen. That's that and maybe you can help me with this I guess the the another wall I run into is it's the hole when people pray for your team to win a football game it's like okay well what about the other team or it's like recently when people were like oh God save Trump and it's like well I guess screw that dude in the bleachers then it's it's like how. And I think someone Greg Boyd explained it to me that let me see if I can remember this metaphor that if. If our events are raindrops on a pond and everything's creating ripples all those ripples are going to collide with each other and create other ripples. So I guess it's like in that example you know God told David that one thing why couldn't the other people do the same thing I guess sort of thing. Is that making sense I think I butchered explaining that but I guess the idea of why would God do some things and not others. Why you know what would God stay his hand for other people. Yeah what would he prevent a hurricane if it means a drought and thousands of people die you know. Yeah and I guess part of me becomes the I don't say the theist but it's like the. God created the world the world is set upon laws of physics and so it is what it is and we're just subject to that. I can help within that but I don't know where I would direct hurricane I guess it's coming to know it could. I don't think he does it be because that runs into the problem of whichever way you steer a hurricane somebody's getting somebody's getting hit with it. What do you think about that just I was reading. I was reading just this morning we're one of the last good kings of Israel before the the exile and Babylon. He was told he was going to die he asked for 15 more year a guy grants him 15 more years and then just tells him like to prove that I'm going to do this the sundial is going to go in the wrong direction for a little bit today. And the sundial went wrong proving that hey this is this is what it is. I don't think we're supposed to read that they're like oh there was a cloud that did this or maybe somebody hung a mirror on the wall or. But I mean he's he's in control of his university can break his laws of physics and do whatever he needs to do does he do it all the time. Do you think there was an age of miracles and we are not in it anymore do you do subscribe to that. That's dispensationalism and dispensationalists would say what is that what is that define that. That exist for very specific reasons like the Great Awakening like the spirit that the era of the apostles where they were raising people from the dead and they were. That was necessary for that kind of display of power, but it's not now. And so you don't do that. That's what their pages of gods of interaction do things can happen but it's not regular it's not to the extent. So the dispensationalists would say now right now we're in a retreat if you will. The bad guy spirits are kind of on the on the on the rise and the good guys are on the way and it's a period of entrenching. Yeah. I don't know if I totally subscribe to it but it does make sense to me. If you look at history there were definite periods of time where things are happening that don't happen now. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, we have those massive 70,000 people attending crusades across the country on a regular basis. Yeah. Yeah. We don't watch them. Can you come get her? Where'd she go? She's right. Do you I guess kind of in a in a sort of wrapping it. What do y'all okay and so dad I think we've had this talk before and it's like Shirley. Hi. By the way, Jordan Miriam has come in here and she's been watching. I'll bring her back afterwards. So surely people in 1945 and in, you know, the bubonic plague. Surely at different points everyone has thought, Oh, this is it. The world is ending. I I am not alone in this. And maybe it's sort of proof that we're all here because we read this book. It seems that there is some sort of changing of the guard, some sort of epoch shifting. The church is changing. It seems like there's some sort of societal ship. I mean, there are societal ships happening. It seems to me that we are in the midst of a massive change in of some kind. Do y'all feel that in any way or do you think this is just business as usual and this is kind of how it's going to go forever? Justin. I definitely think that there's iterations that I guess the Christian in faith evolves from. I mean, we started in the in the garden where you had one rule donate fruit and Abraham and we moved to Abraham and. Hey, be faithful. Do a couple of things right. We and that's about what you need to do. Then we we get the post the Exodus. We're we add more to it. We got the law. We got the Torah. We got sacrifice system. That kind of gets corrupted and changed and got even says like, Hey, I don't want the sacrifice system anymore. I want your heart. We're going to give Baba. Exide the Babylon for a while. We're going to come back. Over time, like it definitely changes and they're not that I'm not trying to say that God changes. I'm trying to say that like our understanding of him and our grasp of him becomes more fuller to where it's fully recognized in in the fullness of Christ. And I think some of that does those those those change a little bit. But I'm wondering how much that our. Getting rid of the past leads us not towards being something more advanced, but something more. Backwards that move moving backwards more than moving forwards by by forgetting some of this stuff. Yeah. Hey, can I interject something? You sure ladies and gentlemen, Miriam Miriam Payne, the favorite, the matriarch. Okay, I just listened to a podcast today. Come closer. Okay. Anyway, he's the editor of Christianity today. He's a pastor. He was big in this other bag. Big in the Southern Baptist Church. He's kind of falling out with them. But anyway, he was talking to somebody else about something else, but this was brought up. Have you ever heard of the singularity? Yeah, I mean, I've heard that term, but in what context? All right, this guy Ray Kurzwell Kurzwell. Kurtzwell. Yeah, Kurtzwell wrote this book 10 or 20 years ago. The singularity is near. He just put out a new one. The singularity is near. And his whole thing is, you know, what you were saying, Jed, do you think it's different now? He is saying yes, and he's pretty predicted AI and he predicted all these things in the proper timeframe. He says by 2029, we'll be able to upload our consciousness into the cloud that, you know, what's the word knowledge is kind of overtaking us. So as much as we're on our phones today, it's going to be like a part of us. All that kind of stuff that's radically different than anything we've had before. Yes, yeah, that's like the transhumanist movement. Yeah, and so it is funny that all the pinnacle goal of mankind is to create mankind. And, you know, it is getting there so much quicker than people realize and it's going to sneak. I mean, we were not evolutionarily prepared for the internet, for social media, we're still not. We weren't ready. It's like giving an AK-47 to a toddler. Justin, I'm going to jump in there. I hope that I trust that if your school says we're going to ban phones from the kids at school, you would say a good idea versus one of those parents who says, no, I need to get in touch with my darling. Yeah, we're a couple of decades away from my kid having a phone. Yeah, yeah, I'm with you there. Yeah. He was also tying it in. I forget the guy he was interviewing in his book. And anyway, the whole body thing, the transgender, that people are starting to, you know, it's kind of a form of Gnosticism that the body's not important. You are your soul and what's inside you and that that's kind of playing into this future world of... It's ultimate narcissism. It's all about me. My truth is... Yes. That is my least favorite statement of the decade is, "Live your truth. Can't stand it. Can't not stand it." It's like, oh, okay, well, let's go tell Adolf Hitler that. What are you talking about? That is not wise. Yeah, and that's what Mom's talking about. It's like the goal of man-made immortality is that you will be able to upload your consciousness You know, that was the Black Mirror episode where the woman's husband died and so she ordered a cyborg of him. That's an outdated term, but a robot version of him with a new consciousness downloaded into it. Well, if you were in the battle to start Galactica, the reboot and the prequel called Galactica, they described how the silons came to be and it's exactly that. The guy who created a robot, his daughter dies and he downloads her entire digital self into that thing and it becomes the self-aware and that became the first silo. And some would say that those things are like predictive programming and that we're just being prepared to accept these things as eventualities, but it's what I try to do. It's so funny is that in dad, you know, like I jumped on the Genesis 6 train years ago and now I'm kind of stepping off a little bit because there's a huge movement of like fearful Christians that are like trying to sound the alarm on like the Nephilim agenda and it's like, have y'all for like calm down, like Christ is still Lord, like what are you worrying about? Like there's a, there really is like massive fear and you know, it's the, I mean, did you see all the posts about the eclipse and how it's going over a city named Nineveh? And it's like, y'all need to really, like if I'm telling you to calm down, you need to calm down, like it's... So I've got a slightly different belief system, I guess, than a lot of the people I run across where I think that we are living right now in the millennial reign of Christ. I think that he is... what's that called? It's pre-millennial. No. A-A-millennialism? Yeah. Okay. I think that might be it. Yeah. So he, with, when he was subject to death, he, death had no claim on him. He was able to win back everybody that was captured by death previously with when he went down into the grave, like death and Satan and hell and it's all, it's already been won. We're, we're chasing the enemy out of, out of the world and like making it. Is the lion eating with the lamb yet? No, not yet. Our work isn't done, but the victory has been won. And so there's a lot of, there's a lot less, I'm not fearful of Nephilim returning because like, this is Christ's planet now, this is, he is reigning over this. We're, we're making this more like his kingdom, we're doing the work Adam and Eve should have been doing and making this more like the garden and less like chaos and destruction. Which is, which is that, another book called reversing Herman. Have you heard of it? I've already read four Heiser books this year. So I'm taking a break for now. It wasn't Heiser. Another guy. No, it was, it was, it was Heiser. Oh, okay. Never mind. Well, it, in, in, in, in that view, Justin, like, how does it, how does it, okay, so how does it end? Like, where is it on the timeline of like Satan being bound and all that? The, if we're in the millennial reign, what's the, what's next? Satan is, I think Satan is currently bound. Okay. If he did stomped on whatever you want to, whatever you want to say, the, the dragon being released for the final judgment thrown into the lake of fire, we still got that to look forward to. Okay. So he hasn't been released yet. And we're, none of us are our rapture people, right? We're not left behind. I'm not much. Yeah. No, I'm not much rapture. Boy, boy, those books were awesome back in the day, though. Cool. Cool story. I like, cool story on the idea of it. Yes. Yes. For some good joke. It does. It does. That convinced. All right. Well, that was a, but if you are, I don't know. Yeah. I might be totally wrong. I'm sure I'm wrong about more stuff that I'm right about. So, right, I will be plowing a field in the field hand next to me. Shall disappear. That's how it's going to go. That was a, that was a, that was a wonderful exchange of ideas. I enjoyed that. Thank you. Yeah. Any closing, closing thoughts. No, just, I do. If you haven't checked. I'm sorry. Go ahead. A lot of this is a, remind me of another book that we read. It goes even further down the, the alien rabbit hole, but also from a Christian perspective and hits on the Nephilim. But. Timothy Alberino. Yeah. He did a book called Burnt. Right. Yeah. So. Another good. Yeah. Have you done him on the podcast? Have you? No, but have you heard of blurry creatures that podcast? Blurry creatures. I think I have. I think I've at least seen the advertisements for it. Yeah. He's on there. I'm very adjacent to one degree of separation from Timothy Alberino. Yeah. That's, he's with. Okay. The dudes in blurry creature. So yeah, check, check them out. And he's on there. A, a ton. They, they just, I sent it. We got a little too far with the aliens for me, but it was a, it was a fun ride. He, I sent it to my uncle Chip, him and blurry creatures just put out their own version of the book of Enoch with his commentary on it. Nate did some illustrations. It just came out. It's really good. Oh, cool. Yeah. Maybe, maybe I'll get your address in Austin to you. That'd be lovely. Awesome. All righty. That was wonderful. I've been feeling like I can't come up for as long as I stand near. What's wrong with me? What's wrong with us? 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