G'day. I'm Lola Berry, nutritionist, author, actor, TV presenter and professional oversharer. This podcast is all about celebrating failure because I believe it's a chance for us to learn, grow and face our blind spots. Each week I'll interview a different guest about their highs as well as their lows, all in a bid to inspire us to fearlessly fail. Hello Gangles, a little hello from Los Angeles. We have a tiny gap in the schedule and I still want to do to have a rip-along form interview today. So we're bringing out Trent Dalton's episode. It was recorded about a year and a half ago. He is one of my favorite humans, probably one of my favorite guests. He'd be definitely the best of the best of the best guests that we've ever had on this part. I feel cheeky saying that, but I'll be real. There's a few people in that group of people, but my point is he's just one of those incredible humans that has a special sparkle and fire in his heart. It's a really raw, vulnerable, honest, open, quite emotional at times, chat. I hope you love this chitty chat with Trent. It is a two-part us who get part one now. I hope you love it. If you haven't read Boyswell's Universe, Lola in the Mirror, Love Stories, go out and read them. Obviously Boyswell's Universe was an epic hit on Netflix as well. So go and watch it. Wonderful Australian cast. But yeah, go out and see and listen and soak up all the magic that is Trent Dalton. Willie Mackerel on the pod today, Trent Dalton, Australian author, I guess you're quite a novelist actually, long-form journalist. And can I say, absolutely wonderful human being. If you have read Boyswell's Universe, Love Stories, all our shimmering skies, then you're going to know about Trent Dalton. His newest book, Lola in the Mirror, is officially out now and available all over Australia, wherever you buy your books from. Do yourself a favour and get it. I binge read it in a day and a half. I could not put it down. Boss couldn't even talk to me. I was like, no, I'm committed. This is the best. This is the best thing ever. It's my favourite book I've read in such a long time. And can I say, I have been wanting to get Trent as you'll hear in this chat on the pod for quite some time and to finally be doing it and getting to do it in the flesh in real life was such an honour. Trent, you are absolutely incredible. And I feel so, so lucky to have spent this hour and a half with you. To the listener, this is a really honest, raw, vulnerable chat. I get a little bit teary in it at one point. And I just want to say thank you to Trent for just showing up with a really, really open heart. You inspired me more than you'll know. Trent Dalton, mate, honoured to have you on this pod. Oh, Lola, this has made my week. It might have made my year. Thanks for taking the time. You've made mine, friend. So, you're a journal, long form journal, and an incredible novelist. I found out about you about, we were just talking about my friend who's in beautiful boys boys universe. And I found out about it, about you because he's like, I'm going to be in boys boys universe. And I was like, what? Talk to me, what? And he's like, here's the book. Read it. And so, like, that's how I learned that. You know, I could not put the book down. So, first of all, thank you for entering my world by a boys boys universe. Oh, well, and thank you to your friend because I know who you're talking about. And I love that man for, and being just one of Australia's finest actors and contributing to that world. Like, for him to step into that universe is completely surreal to me. And it's just yet again, another one of the benefits of one human being trying something. You know what I mean? You don't ever expect that that actor that you're talking about. We can say his name, he's been on the pod. Great Anthony, Anthony LaPalia, like one of them. So he plays the baddie. Can I say the baddie? It's totally Titus Bros. I mean, he's the big baddie. And the coolest thing about that, I remember interviewing Anthony in my journal years. And I remember him distinctly, I interviewed him for Lantana. Oh, you know, Lantana. Brilliant. You know, possibly one of the greatest Australian films ever made and maybe one of Anthony's finest hours. And he was so kind and so down the earth and so generous. And so you always just clock that stuff and you remember it in the back of your mind and you go, so when they tell me, like, guess who's playing Titus? Anthony. And it's just, yeah, it's with wild, you know, and it's so, it's so beautiful to hear. And it's so wonderful to hear you from you of what a fine man he is, you know what I mean? It's like that. It just doesn't help you enhance your love of these people when you do. But also it was so much fun while I was reading the book to watch his transformation. Yeah. The peroxide hair. Right. Just the sheer whiteness of the guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's like, I know and I think that took a few visits to the salon. Did it? Yeah, I don't think that was a one and a fine jet black head ahead of that guy. I know it's pretty good. But, but you know, I've actually lowered. It's really nice to talk to you because honestly like a week ago, my family and I, I mean, I'll get deeply emotional if I go there. But my, my wife and my two daughters, we sat down and binge watched the whole thing. Yeah. And it was like, you don't even know why you do these things until I turned to my left and I see my oldest daughter just weeping. And I turned to her and I grabbed her fingers and I said, honey, is it too sad? She said it's not too sad that it's too beautiful. And she was crying tears. Yeah. She was crying tears of joy for her family. Like she, she doesn't know her papa who died. Like my old man died of emphysema before any of this boy as well as universe stuff. And he was a huge inspo, wasn't he? Cause it's a mad reader, advert reader, right? Lola, like all that stuff in that boy as well as universe book. And you know, the guys addicted to reading, like he's addicted to durries and reading. And, and you know, you're meant to want more out of life, but that's all my old man wanted, you know, and he just read books and he did have the mountains of books. Like we would move from house to house and leave these genuine mountains of paperbacks. These two dollar paperbacks you got in life lines at the, the house I'd always like, dad, what about your books? And he's like, ah, they're all in my head now. You know, there's someone else is to read now, someone else, never for someone else. And then Simon Baker, this great Australian actor is essentially playing this guy, Robert Bell. And man, he plays on such power. And that's what, that's what my eldest daughter was crying about. She was crying about his performance. And it was just, so it's been an incredibly emotional time in my house. So it's amazing. You mentioned Anthony, because he's a part of it. And he just plays tight us so beautifully. And yes, I asked him when he was filming, I was like, what he, I was like, how is he goes? Gee, it's fun. Because it's fun to be the bad. It's fun to be a villain, like it's fun to sit in that energy. We all know him as, you know, I've seen him play great dad. So he plays dad beautifully. Damn, exactly. He plays a cop wonderfully. He plays the good guy so wonderfully. But to see him be this really menacing, salty character, it's really wild. And it shows the, the, the range of these people. I don't even get me started on Phoebe Tonkin is a revelation in this. She essentially plays the hero Frankie Bell and totally inspired by my mum and make she is let rip from her heart and soul. I cannot wait. It's just, I cannot wait. She, I don't know, she deserves every award under the sun. I feel like it's that deep. It's that big. Yeah. Can you share when you, when you finished that first draft, do you send it straight to your mum? Oh, and didn't she call you up like a day and a half later and go, Oh, well, I'll never forget it. I'll never forget it. Like it's nothing but awkward for her, right? Like it's at the start, that concept, the concept of having a son who becomes a journey. And then when he turns 38, he decides to write about all these kind of secrets that he's buried deep down in the bottom of his stomach for fear, for, for concern that people won't really understand the complexity of it or, or the people will see it the wrong way. They'll see that my mum had a journey for two years in a life. You know, she spent in prison, which is just a blip on the radar of an extraordinary woman's long life. Yeah. Just one little blip, but that I didn't want the world, they didn't want that to define this beautiful woman's life. I was a bit worried about writing about it, but I had to, right? I didn't know. For some reason at 38, I, I'd become a dad and I was really well and true. The girls are like 12 and 10 at that time. I was just ready to tell that weird 1980s period of my life in some way. I write this book called Boyswell's Universe. I, and I call up mum first and go mum, I'm sorry I didn't raise a carpenter. I could have built you a cupboard, but you raised a writer and I went and wrote a book about our shared 1980s in which, you know, we were all in love with this guy who was a massive heroin dealer and he's still alive today, this guy and I talked to him still and it was a wild time and that guy went away for 10 years and we, we, we met and we were befriended people like Slim Halliday and escaped Con. It was just, it was just all this stuff that was too good not to write about and so I was like mum, I did it, I wrote this book, but you need to read it, you need to read it and if there's anything in it that you're, like I knew you should be uncomfortable with a lot of it, but if there's anything really, really uncomfortable, then it'll stay in my third drawdown on the desk, you know, and in Dead Set Lola she calls back a day later, a day and she goes, I've been late for work, I took a sickie, I couldn't stop reading it Trent and it's beautiful, she said it's beautiful and it's bigger, it's bigger than me so don't even worry about it. Mate I'm gonna cry, I'm gonna cry because you know that, it's such a beautiful thing for her to do because she was never able to give us boys, she had four sons, I'm the youngest of them, she just wasn't able to give us anything, you know, and when I was 38 she gave me the greatest gift of, she could, she will ever give me, which is a story and permission to tell it, you know, yeah mate, it's like, you know, she's your hero, she's my hero, she's become my unexpected inspiration, you know, you don't even know these things, you have to, I don't know, maybe you have to, like I'm 44 now, maybe you've got to live like four decades to understand why your mum's your actual hero, you know what I mean? I thought it was Eddie Vedder from Pearl Jam and it really turns out it really wasn't Ollie, you know, and I thought it was, you know, I thought it was Michael J Fox when I was 12, it wasn't, it was- I'm sure you went a lot of other 12-year old boys. I did, you know, that's it and it's just like, no, it was the woman just outside the hall, you know, and yeah, so it's um, it's been the most amazing thing and then, you know, they turned that book into a play and then like- I saw the, I didn't get to see the paper, there's a lot of it on, there's a lot of it on. It was in Queensland, right? Yeah, totally, and COVID sort of meant that it, you know, we hope that it will travel further and a lot of people get to see it, but we go to that opening night and, you know, it's pretty dark that play and intense and mums, like, you know, 10 rows back from the stage and the amazing Michaela Banas is playing Frank Bellano. Oh, no, I, I love Michaela's been on this pod, she's wonderful, yeah, I love it, I love it. Oh, we call her Auntie Michaela, like she's like become an auntie to my kids, like, don't even get me started on that human being, like she will send little things to my kids and come over and she'll, every time she's in Brisbane, she's like, I've got to go out to your house and catch up with the girls. And it's like, she's an incredible human being and she cares about my mum so much. Like, her first thing was like, can I meet your mum and just, just check she's okay with me doing this sort of stuff. And I'm like, don't worry, Michaela, she's all good. And mum goes to that thing, incredibly intense. There's like moments of real trauma on stage and like, you know, my mum was like, you tell them not to, you tell those people, like, do not shy away from that then what she means from any of the dark stuff. And in her case, you know, DV, just terrible DV and horrendous stuff. And that book, this was universes like 5% of what that woman endured. But she said, if you're going to go there, really go there. And they do, they go there in that play and it's horrendous and shocking. Like, as an audience member, you're quite, you're really rattled by it. And I was just checking in on her all the time. She was just wiping, wiping her eyes the whole time. And we get home, this is like from opening night, right? And it was like standing ovation. And mum's just like, look at like blowing her, her mind's blown. But I'm still a bit worried about her, like, you know, jeez, I hope she's all good inside, you know, and we get home and it's like, it's nearly midnight by the time all the kids go to bed and everything. And it's just mum and I have an a beer at the kitchen bench. And I'm like, mum, mum, you know, come on, honestly, tell me how you're feeling. Like, what's going through your mind? And she goes, ah, Trent, ever since the curtain dropped, there's just been two words. And she leans over and she goes, I won. Ah, you know, my me crying there. Oh, yeah. I won. I, you know, I, I bloody, I raised the boy who wrote Boy Swell as you know that. Ah, well, don't get me, don't get me emotional. No, that whole journey, that's what I mean. It's a beautiful thing you ask, you know, I thank you for starting where it started for me. It started with that phone call to mum. That's absolutely where the past sort of five years of my life started. It was just like, hey, mum, you know, yeah. Do you know what I love though? Like, learning about the time before, like, the novels and whatnot, like, you're a journal that just really genuinely cares about their subjects so much. And I know it's about like the reader, but like, there's something about you that seems to care about the subject deeply as well. And say I'm going to get emotional as well, but it's like, for you, it feels like truthfulness is so important. Oh, definitely. And this is why I can't, it's why I love your podcast, you know, like it's, it's just cutting through the bullshit and like, let's get, let's get as quickly as we can, truth of another human being, you know, and it's like, this is why I, you know, I say, I can't, I'm not big on Danish furniture talk and I'm not big on, like, a lot of real estate talk or something. It's like, what I'm big on is like, tell me when you last cried, or I know that sounds a bit cheesy, but, or tell me who you miss in the world, because then we'll suddenly get into the truth of the human being. Like, you can really, when people, when people access, for example, their saddest moments, it's just the closest thing to truth you'll get from a human. You know what I mean? Like, it's just like, I love that. I'm like, are you got some of those? Oh, I hear I'll, I'll share you some of mine with you. And, and now, look at us together, we're learning, but you know what I mean? Like, we're learning and we're learning how to sort of get through. And, and, you know, and so it's sort of, yeah, and that's all I ever did as a journey. It was really, I haven't, and I have no doubt, Lola, that I was, I was just totally processing stuff in that, in that, that stuff in my stomach, you know, there's just no doubt about it. And I, I talked to my brother just the other night about us. Like, I think we all carry a bit of, like, totally unprocessed shit, I stole my voice. And I was like, and I was just really lucky that I, I've got a job where I got to go out into the suburbs and just knock on someone's door and say, Hey, I've got nothing more to do today, except this sit with you for four hours, if need be, and hear everything you've got to say about life. And I drive home from those, um, chats and I'd just like, listen to the tape. And I'd like, I'd start, you know, I've already heard them and we've kind of, you know, but I'd, I'd start getting very moved and realizing, Oh man. Oh, I know I asked that question. That was for me. That was, that was like, I'm trying to work out my old man. How cool is that? Like, how amazing is to have that, but also to have that self awareness. Oh, thanks. Yeah. To be able to be like, hang on, that's, yeah, teaching me something as well. Like, Oh, and if that's where you're coming from, you're going to be, you're going to, it's going to show, like, it's going to show in the way, like you should, you should see me Lola in those moments. I'm like a puppy dog. I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, you are, you're very tense. Like you're very already, I could, you know, you're a very good listener in the terms of like, you're just like, yeah, like all of that stuff. Like, yeah, right. Yeah. You know, like, I'm like, I was like that all the time in those interviews, because, and you're talking about the deeper stuff, but it's like, yeah, it would get to the point where people appreciate it because, you know, in life, we don't get to do this. You can either do it on a podcast, you can pay for it in a therapist's room, or you can talk to a janitor, you know, and it's like, and it's like, there's not many avenues to really sit and shed. And it's like, yeah, it's like, I really appreciated that. And you're so right. It's just, it's just staying long enough until you hear the truth. It's just sticking around in the lounge in long enough until they share the truth. And holding that space too, like honoring that space where you're just like, okay, like I have a rule with the pod, like I'll research to the degree, right? But I also have a rule that like, do the research so well that you will need to throw it away. Yeah, cool. Yeah. Just go wherever it goes. Oh, that's great. To me, it's like then all your job, all my job is to just hold space and then whatever comes comes. Oh, I love that about holding space. Right. But I feel like having read some of your pieces aside from the beautiful novels and also like love stories. Yeah. Like really hearing. Also, I love the nod to love stories in the back of this book. I was like, he's doing a Taylor Swift. There's an Easter egg here. Oh, my daughters are the biggest sweepies. They're going to love this. They're going to love that you reference Taylor Swift and me in this like I'm doing a Taylor Swift. I am. It's kind of like my own little, it's weird. And my editor suggested that. And I was like, is that too indulgent? Is that too self-indulgent? No. Do you think it's too much? No, I love it. It's brief. It's brief. And you've got a, you've got a real note, literally know what it is anyway. But yeah, it's. You've got to have an Easter egg. Yeah, tell your daughter. It's a little Easter egg. Yeah. Yeah, you're a. Did you get swift tea? Yeah. No, I did not. But I was in LA when she performed and I went to a gay Rams game at so if I say to him a week later, and it was just glitter everywhere. And so I felt like a little. A little touches with you. Yeah. And your daughter's going? Totally. We devoted a day. It was one of the greatest family activities of our lives. I've already been and gone in this. Sorry. No, we devoted a day to buying the tickets. Oh, of course. Yeah. Like that day was the most high pressure day. You know, we did the thing where you're clicking on the. Refresh. Refresh. Yeah, we did all that. Yeah. Oh, how? Yeah. So last night I finished this incredible, beautiful. Thank you. And there were moments where I was reading it and I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Especially around Erica, Erica's character. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, this is, I didn't, I didn't sign up for that bit. Like, you know, I'm so sorry. Yeah. No, no, no, no. I want you to know I loved. I love. Thank you. Yeah. Giving me as a reader, as a, going to the movies, you just give yourself over to the journey. Oh, my. Yeah. Can I ask you where your Lola comes from? Your name, Lola? Oh, yeah. You're going to, you're going to. So I, I did not know that Lola meant sorrow, by the way, until I read this book. Oh, wow. Wow. Wow. So this is a very, quite a funny story, but not ever, not very. I love every name as a story. I knew you would. I knew you would. Yeah. So my name is Lauren, which means wisdom. I found. Oh, beautiful. And sweet of honor, which I was pretty cool. That is amazing. Go. All the Lawrence out there. That is a really cool name. Yeah. But the first ever love of my life, his sister's name was Lauren, and he was like, look, can we have a chat? And I was like, yeah, he's like, look, it feels weird dating. So I'm with the same name as my sister. Yeah. I get that. I get that. And he's like, I really like to call you Lola. And I was like, yeah, go for it. And it just, I was so young that it just stuck. And I only, like, if someone, if I walked down the street and someone called Lauren, I wouldn't know to turn around. Like it's. Is that right? It's that much. And I was like 17, 18, young enough for it to fully stick. But my dad always says, you know, I named you Lauren. Oh, I love that too. But you know what? That's something even really special as well. Like, that's that special thing. It's like, yeah, there are only a certain handful of people who would call you Lauren. And it's like, they're very special. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Did you find anything changed by taking on the Lola? Like, or no, I like, you know, yeah, totally. You know, do you think there's a difference between Lola in 2023 to Lauren back in the day? Yeah. Well, I think for me, when I tell people, oh, my real name is Lauren Smith, which is as bad as like, playing as you can get, they'll always laugh, but say, no, no, you're a Lola, like people will straight away go to your, you're a Lola. You are actually, I don't know why, but you are. Yeah, it feels, it feels true to me. But there's also to me, there's a, there's a fire and cheekiness to Lola, which I feel like there's like this bravery or cheekiness, like you've just expressed what I'm trying to get at with the whole book, though. Like you are, we are not what, you know, we don't have to be what we're given. You know, we don't have to, you know, I'm what I'm trying to say. It's not like you ran from Lauren or anything, but it was like, what I'm trying to say in that thing is we are not always our blood. We don't have to be our past. We don't have to be the things the world is telling us that we are, and we can actually find our true selves. And I love that you just said it. You said, no, Lola is true. Like, Lola is the true. Yeah. I mean, in some ways, and it's like, I'm totally trying to get at that. Like, that's amazing that that's it's, yeah. This book, Lola in the mirror, by the way, I haven't even said the name of it yet. I cannot wait to see how it's received. Because to me, I was like, how do you do this? You do have this beautiful gift of grabbing sorrow, pain, and then throwing it in in a bowl with hope, and love, and heartbreak, and like, grief, and resilience. And like, it's like this combination of like, all these like, beautiful, terrible, but beautiful. Yeah. And you know what I mean? And, but I think you, I think this is a testament to you, because I see, like, the POV of our protagonists here, I see similarities to Eli Bell. Oh, yeah. Yeah. For sure. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's that like, unwillingness to give up. Yeah. Oh, that's so beautiful. Thank you. Yeah. That is a, that is a thread that I hope I continue to write about for the rest of my life. Like, this book kind of represents kind of the end of a bit of a youth trilogy. And it's funny that it coincides at the same time, weirdly. The, the, the nameless hero in this book, Lola, Lola in the mirror is kind of roughly the same age as my oldest daughter. It's kind of funny that I'm kind of coming to the end as, as my daughter's kind of rich young adulthood. But I am deeply moved by Australian kids who carry trauma and process it in very strange ways sometimes, but process it in the ways they only know how and, and find love in very strange places, because they got none and find their future, you know, in very unusual ways. And that's just like, man, that's just, that's the story of my life. That's the story of a lot of kids lives. And, and I find that very, but it's the unwillingness to give up. Oh, that is a, that is a character trait that I completely adore in our young people, like it's just a mate or anyone, right? This is so that's you, it also would have been you and you're like your childhood, because obviously a bit of Eli Bell is a little bit of Treaddollum, right? Yeah, yeah. And so it's that, it's that like, how I hadn't a coach, an acting coach once say like, we've all got this tiny little spark in our heart and you've just kind of got to fan it. You've just got to keep fanning that until it becomes a flame. And it's like the spirit of your two, like leads or protagonists, I'm just like, ah, like that, it's that flickering heart. Like, there are so many moments in this book where our nameless hero could have and in this, this, this sad world, this set, the, the homeless crisis could have an in, I'm sure many versions of this should have given up. Ah, right. Well, I'll tell you, I'll tell you where that comes, I'll tell you where that what I'm, where the very real place where that comes from is. So, and it's amazing. It is absolutely me riffing, same stuff I was riffing on with Eli in, in Boyswell's universe. What I didn't go into in Boyswell's universe is all the mirror talk that I did as a kid. And so in, in the book, Lola in the mirror, our, our hero is kind of constantly looking in this sort of magic mirror that she's found on a council curbside collection. She's kind of manifested this person inside this mirror who just represents this kind of ultimate woman that she might want to be and kind of is a bit of a hero to her. And like, when I was a kid and growing up in this housing commission house, my dad was raising us four boys while mum was going through some staff. And, and I just remember, like, I started out at about 12, we had this lifeline Duchess. It was this ornate. It was like, it was like a mirror that Elizabeth Taylor might have had. Like it was ridiculous being fancy and it just didn't belong in a room. It was just someone had obviously given it to lifeline and we inherited it. But it just didn't belong in the room of Jesse and Trent Dalton, like these two boys from Bracken Reed, it was just ridiculous. But that was our mirror. And I remember looking in that mirror sometimes when I was like 12 and going like, one day I'm gonna be Wally Lewis. I'm gonna be captain of the Queensland rugby league team, right? So you're seeing a version of that. But by that, you're seeing all these different versions because you're optimistic and you're hopeful and stuff. But I swear this really happened. Like by the time I got to about 16 and I'm listening to Nirvana and, and I'm, and I just, I just really stopped liking what I saw in the mirror to be honest, like I, I, I, I, and I would, I had this American baseball cap and I'd pull it down over my head. And I, because you're old enough to realize you're past and you're present and you're future. And it all looks shit. Like honestly, it all looks shit. And, and I just, you'd walk in and you pull your hat down and you reach for your Long Beach mild cigarettes. And that's all you're gonna do. And then if I did, if I did say anything into the mirror, it wasn't hopeful. It was likely to be something like, um, fuck them all. You know, you're just angry and you're just on that knife edge. And, you know, and, and I, you know, I do keep going back to the well of that place because it, it, it amazes me that the Dalton boys didn't go, didn't pursue that anger, you know, and, and, and it's like everyone talks about youth crime in Australia now. And I remember if someone asked me at this legal sort of, um, it was a youth advocacy forum and someone just from the audience goes, Trent Dalton, how do we solve youth crime? And it's like, uh, youth crime, I could give you like 200 answers about. But, um, here's one that's been on my mind is we've got to change largely what those young boys, they're largely young boys of 15, 16, 17, we've got to change what they're seeing in the mirror as in what they're seeing of themselves and what they're seeing of their past, their present and the future. And it was like, I get that, I get that where you don't see anything good. So there's no reason to sort of change your future. And, you know, I feel like that's kind of highlighted in like Charlie's character a little bit. Totally, totally. And a lot of the other characters that are in more the addictiony kind of space or moving drugs, you know, like, oh, mate, Charlie's, I love that you mentioned Charlie. He, to be honest, Charlie's the closest thing to a Dalton boy at that time. That is a fact like, like by the time I was 18, I was just like, to be honest, like, it was just, I'm going to, I am quite happily going to become an alcoholic and kind of, you know, and, you know, it was just, it was just no reason not to, you know, and that was, I really feel for Charlie because he's like, you know, his best friend is the hero of our story. And she's always just, come on, stop being such a fuck up. You're so brilliant. You're so beautiful, but, but you just can't find his future self. He doesn't have the magic mirror. He can't find that wonder inside. He's been in that foster home loop, right? Sorry, he's probably captured, he's probably carrying too much. That's right. That's right. Sometimes, like I dedicate the whole book, what I mean, I dedicate the whole book to anyone who didn't jump in the river and anyone who did. And what I mean by that is like, the river of our troubles, like the weight, I just mean the weight, you know, the stuff that, that buries us and drowns us, you know, and it's like, and I get it, man. That's what I'm saying. And anyone who did jump in the river, I get it. I get it. I don't judge that at all. No, no, no. And that's what, what I love the way you give us the reader, like we're feeling empathy for each of the characters at different moments. Like even quite like the ugly characters, like, is it, is it friend? Yeah. Like, and there's an ugliness. Thanks for knowing this book so well. You know what's so well. Like, and I can't, that's what I'm saying. I'm so excited. Because this is a little shout out to my beautiful friend Stacey over Christmas last year. She saw me reading a book by an Australian author. I can't even remember. She goes, Hey, I want to read it. And I was like, Oh, I'll send it to you soon as I'm finished it. She goes, no, I'll trade you. She goes, I've got the best book. And she sent me love stories. Oh, wow. And she just wrote, I'm calling it Book of the Year. I'm calling it now Book of the Year. How, how cool is that? And then to catch it, I'm going to get emotional with you. Big shout out, Stacey. I know what a sweetie. And she was the first person that said, you need to get him on your part. Oh, Stacey. I know. Well, Stacey, I'm really enjoying this podcast. So thank you, Stacey. You know, I'm going to get emotional with this, but I feel very safe to get emotional with you. But I was reading it and I think I put a photo, I was in LA lonely as fuck and which I love LA, but it is a bit we were saying it's brutal. Yeah. And it's just like, some days you can handle the rejection and some days you're like, Oh, give me a break, right? Anyway, and I had one of those days, I tagged, I was reading your book and I took a photo and I tagged you in it. And you wrote to me, don't ever stop sharing your light. Yeah. Do you remember that? I don't have to do that. Of course I do. And I was like, first he did he is. And I was like, I've got to interview this human being. I didn't expect to cry in this interview, by the way, but you're just all hard. Aren't you just? Well, light is. So thank you. There's the best quote in this book, the best thing, the truest thing I wrote, I believe it's the truest thing I wrote. And the kid in the book is an artist and she processes her trauma through sketches. And there's a thing I'm saying in the book about, it is impossible to actually draw light on a white page. Like it's amazing you mentioned, don't stop sharing your light. I mean that, because what I'm saying is, and what I say in the book is it's impossible to draw light on a white page with a black ink pen, but the way you can do it is to make the darker stuff dark as dark as it gets. And it makes the light shine that much brighter. We can only, the light comes from the darkness, we place around it. And it's like, I do believe what you do here, and your ability to just build the whole thing around failure, like around failing. It's freaking brilliant. Why the hell isn't that the, again it taps back into that. That's the first thing I want to talk to someone about. It's like, yeah. That's true. Let's get there. Let's get there. Let's share that, because that's bloody interesting. And that's what I mean by your light. And I think it's like that the moments of darkness is usually where you get to feel like that. And this is where both of your protagonists always have this like unwillingness to give up thing. It's where that kind of goes, keep fucking, keep going, trust, keep going. Where have you found that though? Whatever that was in LA, and we all know LA, right? And if Michael J. Fox gave up, we wouldn't have, you know what I mean? It's like, I love those people who they just dig in. And I think actors are just the most amazing people in terms of their resilience to just crushing blows. I've spoken a lot about it. And big actors, like people in the show, in Boyce Wallis University. You talk to those people, they go, oh, mate, you should have seen the shit people told me in terms of erasing my spirit. And just like, it's unbelievable their resilience. Especially LA, you're acting classes in LA, not all of them, but some of them feel like your rite of passage is only through pain. And sometimes that can be quite problematic, because you're just sitting in trauma day. So I often will try and find a teacher that just feels true. And then I trust wherever that class is going to go. And so for me, that is kind of like my barometer of like, if this person feels like they're their true self, then I'm going to go to that class. But this is why I come back to truthfulness with you. Obviously, it's the way you live. But it's kind of rare to see like, because I think as a coping mechanism as a human being, we put masks on, we put out into the universe this version of ourselves that we think people aren't going to judge too much or we think that we need to be. And it's like, it's so rare when you mean, and because of this pod, I've cried with one other guest on the pod and it was because I felt like they were so real. And it's that same feeling. But I think what I'm trying to say is like, yes, you write about truthfulness, but you live true as a human being. And it feels rare when you meet truly, I think you've got this beautiful superpower, though, where you can just pull the truth out of people, hence your whole career. But how important to you is like, just being true and living true. Can I tell you something I'm probably most ashamed of from my youth. Just just lying about my mum to people. That would have been survival, though, I imagine. Yeah, just just what like kids would go, Oh, Trent, how come your mum's never at the tuck shop or there's stupid stuff, right? But, but I, you know, I, you know, it's really, you know, like just I, I'd tell terrible lies about what I won't even say it because it's too hurtful, like, but it's like, about where she was. I was like, man, what, like, of course, you don't have the fourth thought that 12 to go, or sorry, like, eight, nine, 10 to go. Well, she's in a really tough time. She's going to come out and be the most amazing grandma. She's going to work for this place over at Redcliffe. And she's going to be so loved by her workplace. And she's going to go to grandparent's day as this incredible mum that her granddaughters are going to just love to bits. And then, then I'll tell you, and then I'll say, okay, there's, there's, there's just a total fakery. And then I remember getting into high school. And I just have, I was just always exuberant. I don't know why, Lola. I don't know why I was enthusiastic about life, right? And then I remember this guy at school once just like, just giving me shit. Like he called me like, you guys, are you, you know, he goes, are you faggot? Like, you know, you stop being so happy, you know. And I remember, I remember distinctly going home and, and like, you know, shit at home is not good, shit at school is not good. And I remember just going, I remember, I remember, honestly, I was picking out the mattress foam of my older brother's mattress. I remember lying it with double bunk, you know, bunk beds. And I was picking the, you know, and, and I just remember like, I remember like, picking out, and I just said something like stop, like picking out the words stop. And what I was going like, stop being, stop being this fucking bright, chirpy idiot. Honestly, I was like, I am never going to be like, I told myself, like, stop it, because no one likes that guy. Can you believe that? It's your spirit. Like you're quite, you're like, you're enthusiastic, you're passionate, you're like, it's just like, and it was just like, I remember distinctly, and I was just like, what a, what a, like, what a terrible thing. Like I just like, that thing is the thing that got me a job in journalism. It was a thing that if you're talking about whatever people want, it's, it's my, it's my enthusiasm for their story. And it was just like, and then what happened to me that I was really lucky that happened is that I kind of met this girl Fiona, my wife now, and she, to be honest, kind of celebrated every part of me, you know, and just went like, like she sometimes to this day says, can you turn it down a bit? Can you turn the volume down a bit? That'd be great. Sometimes it's all a bit too much. And don't get me wrong to it. If I am being truthful to man, a terrible guy to live with and just like that, the ups and downs of that is that I'm so bright for like, you on this podcast, right? And then like, Lola Berry gets the best of me. And then I, and then I'm like, and then fees got to go like, hey, hey Trent, like later on tonight, I'm like, I don't know, I've just given everything to like, all these people during the day and forget to give it back to my wife, like in the kitchen at 6 p.m., you know, and it's like, there's all that. And she, she understands all of that. Anyway, what I'm trying to say is it was like, it was, it was only becoming my true self that anything good ever started happening to me. And then it was only even going deeper into my true self. Boy Swell is universe at the age of 38. Like that took, that took like almost freaking like three decades after some of that shit. I just turned 38 like a week ago. So happy birthday. That's amazing. Yeah. It's actually inspiring to hear that. It's a good age. Like you're coming, you're coming towards that kind of all bets are off, mate. All bets are off. You've a state, you know, you've done your hard work, you've done your bit, you've worked your arse off from your 20s and 30s. And you're just, it's where I love where you're at. And you're just, so now you've got, you've gone, you're all going to do, I'm going to go to LA and do the impossible. You know, I'm going to do the thing that we all know is impossible. Yeah. Right? You're still doing it. Like you're correct me if I'm wrong. The plan is like, you're over there, like getting acting, doing acting stuff, getting gigs, trying, making your way, taking the hits, yeah. Totally doing the impossible. I just admire that. To do that at 38 is freaking brilliant. Like that's deeply inspiring. And I'm sure it's inspiring anyone listening to this. So can I share something to you that happened to me recently in the LA? And I really, I wrote it in my show. It's a random question. It has absolutely nothing to do with you as a writer. But I went and saw a playwright speak. His name is John Patrick Shanley. He's quite a prolific writer. He wrote doubt. And I think he's amazing. I was going to say, I knew I'd known the name, doubt is incredible. Yeah. So he's 72. Is he really? Wow. And I went to see some works of just scenes, he's thrown together. Right? So he writes his consistent writer. Anyway, in between each scene, he'd get up and kind of answer all of our questions on stage. And he loves writing about mother daughter, and that's his whole jam. He's like, Arthur Miller's done the father something perfectly. I want to sit with the mother daughter. It's his whole jam. Well, anyway, he said this thing that was like an arrow that just shot through my heart and he goes, you're either writing or you're not. How does that feel to you? It's absolutely as simple as it is. Yeah, as it gets. That's so true. I totally believe that. So much of what we either read is just not good, right? Like, it's like so much. It's just done. It's just completed. It's been finished. And it's like, that's our job. And that's why I say to people, everyone gets so daunted by the process and the, everyone gets so daunted by the outcome and that they never get to the outcome. You know what I mean? It's so hard to just keep it unfinished because you get defeated by your own self doubt, which is only this horrible thing called the brain, which is a complete traitor and imposter. And it will be the thing that always tells me that I'm such a chancellor from Brackenridge and I don't belong to this day, no matter what I've done. And it's this thing, the heart though, that keeps being my friend and goes, I have higher hopes for you, buddy. So get back down to the desk and you are either writing or you are not. And it's like, every time I'm writing, every time the gods reward me, the writing guys reward me because I decided to write, you know, and that's so true. Forget about the bullshit. I've seen people, I've seen people post things and they go, they're like, I did my set up. I've got my poster on the wall and I've got my, I've got my, yes, even like this writing space room, we're in like a really cool writing space and we spent a bit of time, my writing partner, I put up some posters and stuff and it's like, it's the godfather part three here. And we literally voiced it, we're like, we're going to get a bit of the spirit of Francis Ford Coppola in us, right? And then over here, we're going to get the spirit of like, John Lennon, we're going to get, we're going to get a bit of John, but it all means nothing. It means nothing if you're not just at the desk writing and he's so right, you know, and he's 72 and he's looking back now at that amazing playwright and just going, yeah, you know what it was? I just sat down and I wrote, and it's like, do you think that's what he means? Yeah, he does. Yeah, but it just adds like someone that loves to create. I was like, oh, yeah, I'm either doing that creative thing I love in whatever form that is writing podcasts or whatever, or I'm not, it's a, it just, but it just, it just rung true. Is that, is that meaning for you then? Is that like, is that the meaning of life? Like, is that, is that it? Is it as, could it be as, that's what I've often wondered? Is the meaning of my life writing? I think, I mean, you do also address the meaning of the world and the meaning of it as well. I do, and it's not for any. But I think, so I'm a big yogi and I teach yoga and there's a word in yoga called dharma and it means to live your true calling or purpose and to honor that dharma, like to honor that within you. Yeah. And so I think you writing honors your dharma. Oh, wow. I think that's you on a spiritual hippie kind of, you know? Oh, well, I'm going to rhyme something with dharma, the Dalai Lama, who I interviewed once. Amazing. And I spent like two days with him, following me around Brisbane, that was my, I just got assigned like, great gig. And, you know, and, and everything one might imagine about him, times up by 10. And, and, and, and by the end, I, I watched this man move people just by, you know, his, his dharma is, is genuinely just meeting people and just elevating them somehow. But I leaned into him, who I had one more question left in my whole time with him. He's like, we were done. We were done. It had been an amazing experience. And I leaned in, I said, uh, why am I here? And, um, and I meant why are eight billion of us on this rock. And, uh, he leans in, he goes, there was a channel seven lighting person over in the corner over there. And, and then there was his security guard who was dressed in this Louis Vuitton all black suit. It was like an ninja this dude. He looked amazing, most handsome man you've ever seen. And he could kill you with two fingers type guy. He points to him and he says you were here to speak to him and tell his story. And he points to the lighting person. You were here to speak to her and you were here to tell her story. And you were here to talk to me and tell my story. And that's all you have to do. And he meant, like I meant eight billion of us and he went, no, I'm going to tell you what Trent Dalton has to do. It was profound. Is that also then to connect? That's it. That's it. That's all he's saying. And guys, because the more you do that, the more we learn from everyone you've connected with. And then we connect to you and that person. And it was just so simple. I think that's your whole jam. You crystallized it. It was an amazingly profound kind of release for me. Like it was just like, oh, all right. It's not that complicated. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, it's connection. Like if someone people say, why are the acting, I'm like, to touch people's hearts? Because you know, when you go to a play or you read a book or you listen to a piece of music, you can stop you in your tracks, right? Especially in a theatre and a play. And it can change a heart. Oh, how many times have you driven back from a play and gone? Yeah. Okay. I'm going to take that with me. Yes. That's going to change me in some way. I'm guilty of forgetting the thing I learned, you know, so quickly, you know, like you get that feeling. You don't get the feeling. I don't think you forget that feeling. True, which is why when you said doubt, for example, I go, oh, wow, that's all. Suddenly comes back to me, the feelings I had with that, or, um, you know, or, yeah, just, oh, it would, it would death of a salesman. And like, we were talking to them about that before the point. And we're like, yeah, it's like those things that speak to me. And they go, you're right. You apply the feelings. You're right. It's the good art. That's great art, isn't it? But you never forget the feelings it gave you. Right. Wow. I can't talk to you about this book without talking about the homeless crisis here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I am going to be really honest with you. I was pretty ignorant about it. I didn't know. And then as soon as I finished the book, I was like, I set, yelled out to my boyfriend, we call each other boss. And I was like, boss, work a night. I need a research. I need to do more research. And I just wanted to learn. And I had no idea how hard Brizzy gets hit versus other parts of Australia. I did not know that at all. And you talk about this, like, it, there's an invisibility that comes with being a homeless person here in Brisbane. Yeah. And please, if I say anything wrong or like, I'm here to learn. And I know that when you do your launch, I think you're raising awareness for, is it second chance? Oh, second chance. So we're, we're doing a big fundraiser where, yeah, like all of the profits. And it's because of this amazing woman named Fiona Stager, who runs this bookshop in West End called Avid Reader. I know it. But, you know, Avid Reader, yeah, of course you would, yeah. And she's just totally giving away, like, you know, the money to second chance. And second chance raises money for particularly women and children who have been kind of forced out on the street, largely through domestic violence. And, you know, so, so that for me, like Lola gets back to voicefulness, universe stuff like that's my, you know, that's my mum. There was times in my mum's life and she'll tell you, you know, like, she had her monsters, you know, and, and she, you know, she relied on DV shelters. And, and, and, you know, the truth of it is, is that sometimes the only option she had is go back to the monster or go homeless, you know, and that's where that stuff comes from. And, and then, and then at that same time across town, we're being raised by this, you know, this incredibly beautiful man who's my dad, who just has these massive demons and biggest demon being the drink. But we were, we were renting off public, you know, through public housing, a little three-bedroom shitbox for less than $100 a week, right? And that was from, you know, we did that for 10 years. And I just have no doubt that we wouldn't get that home if it was in 2023 in Queensland. So Queensland, the reason Queensland's struggling is that it's beautiful one day and perfectly fucked the next. Like it's, it's, it's everything that attracts anyone wealthy to Queensland is the same thing that, you know, the sun, the, the climate. Well, it's also really good to sleep in if you're sleeping rough, you know. So a lot of people are coming up here just to sleep on the streets. And that's a fact. And, and, but also we've got a horrendous DV problem here in Brisbane. And, and really sadly, you know, a lot of the cases are women, they're in cars with their kids doing mathematics because they can't go home, you know, and it's too dangerous. And, and it, yeah, it's a real problem. And, you know, but also cost a living that's facing every city in this country, you know. So Brisbane's absolutely not immune to that. And so there's a, just down the road from where we're speaking, we're talking in the Fortitude Valley. There's this great place called Third Space. And I'd been documenting that place for 15 years as a journal. And, and I remember one day I interviewed in that place in the, in the kitchen cafeteria where they were, this family was out in the Smokers courtyard, they were out there because it was that packed. There was, there was a grandmother, a mother and a granddaughter. So three generations of the same family. All because of an act of domestic violence, they'd found, found themselves absolutely in the throes of homelessness, having to get their lunch at the Third Space homeless shelter. And the, the girl was not even 10, I remember. And it was, it was almost a story too sad to print. I'd almost didn't even send it in. It was so fricking sad, but it, that really stayed with me for law in the mirror. That, that, you sort of, there are so many echoes of that. You can feel like there's a line I think it's like, they call Australia the lucky country. Yeah. But one, is it, one women's killed every week in Australia to domestic violence? Oh hell yeah. And all the numbers are up higher than that is already, so far it looks like we're going to get higher than that. You know, so it's, yeah, mate, it's, there's an amazing, yeah, there's a place called online called Dangerous Females. And they always update and it's, it's, it's, it's so wondrous that they do it. And it just reminds me every week that, yeah, and they'll post about every woman across Australia who has died. And it is, it's the scourge, you know, it's the scourge of Australia. And it's tied up in our masculinity. It's tied up in our how fucked up we are. And kind of as a, as a nation, you know, we have a, it's just no doubt about it. We have a violence streak in us as a nation, you know what I mean? And I think that stems from where, where we came from as a nation, our kind of, you know, we, we were born through violence, you know, the whole nation was born through violence and it's sort of like, and, and, and it's something we're absolutely addressing and we're so much better at it. But I'll tell you, mate, I'll tell you, like, there were times, you know, with my mum, we weren't good at it at all. Like in the 90s, it was terrible. Like some of the shit that my mum got told about her options, you know what I mean? And so that's where all that's coming from. And so yeah, this, this fundraiser we're doing was just, and it's so lovely to see the people at Brisbane. They're coming out and they're just going, yeah, I'm there, I'm there because I see it myself. I've been tight. Like, let's be, who hasn't been touched by it? Like it, you know, I, I bet you you've got your stories of someone in your sphere, somewhere, you know what I mean? That you know someone who's been through either DV, found themselves just the one, two or three steps away from the stream. Like that's, that's just a fact now. And I think it's, I'm, they used to say it's three steps, just three moments of misfortune, you know, lose your job. You lose your job and you're in debt. I'm telling you, it used to be you could rely on some social housing or something. I'm sorry, it's not the case anymore. And it's definitely not in Brisbane. The waiting list is just too long. Yeah. So it's, um, yeah, I just wanted to write about not in a preachy way at all. Right. There's nothing, oh, that's good. It's not at all. It's not. There's nothing worse than someone sort of just embedding their book with just full preach mode. But it was like, I have to write about the world just out there, but let's do it in the same way Dickens did, all the same way Shakespeare did where it's like, let's fill it with intrigue and crime and mystery and adventure and a bit of magic, you know, and, and, and, you know, the best one of all love. Let's, let's make it a freaking love story. I love the love. Yeah, right. Oh, it's my favorite part of the book. There was a moment where I was like, Oh, this better not be edited. I'm sorry. I was quickly ready. Oh, you're the best. You're the best of both of your books. It's like the more you, um, not both. There's four, right? Four books. This is my fifth. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and the more you read the quick, it's like you can't. Oh, you're the best. But there's something I read in, in an article, it's my last question about the homelessness here is, um, there was an article I read last time. It was homeless first, addict second. Oh, yes. The addiction is a way to dull pain and the trauma of living on the street, you know, and. Oh, I'm so glad you said that's amazing. I love that. It's such a brilliant, succinct way of putting it. Right? Because I, I don't know. I just think like this invisibility you talk about is like, well, it's, it's kind of, it's easier to turn a blind eye. Yeah. And, you know, oh, well, it's because they're an addict or whatever. It's like, no, no, no, no, like, a homeless first, addict second. Um, okay. Every, every social issue Australia faces finds at work, finds its way to the front gates of third space homeless shelter in Brisbane at 8 30 a.m. And, and I mean, but what I mean by that is every indigenous issue, every, um, child abuse issue, um, every, um, childhood trauma issue. So I wrote a whole book and it went nowhere this book and it was just a sort of a, it's like a self-funded thing that the homeless shelter, third space made themselves used to be called 139 club. It was these in the days when it was known as it's been around for 50 years, this shelter about 10 years ago. We all, and I, I did it. I wrote the book called detours and it was interviewing 20 people regulars from that shelter about the moment, the detour moment that set them on the path to homelessness. And they, the whole book was based on what you just said, homeless first, addict second. So please can we break down the myth that everyone's out there on that street because of addiction. It's not the trauma will get you on the street often. Yeah. Oftentimes they were stories of trauma and, and, and depression, deep sorrow, uh, you know, and, and an overwhelming sense of, um, not being able to cope in this mad world and, and, and yes, uh, drink and drugs will help you numb the pain and get you through a frickin night out in, you know, 10 degrees, uh, you know, cold and, and so it's sort of like, that whole book was all about. And every person, you know, there were stories in that book. Um, you know, one guy telling me, um, you know, he was in the army. Uh, there's an explosion in a tank, loses his left eye, gets kicked out of the arm. You know, it just goes on from that, you know, not to, I feel like there's a nod to that in one of the characters. Well, said, well, I'm telling you these are, there's a, well, uh, that's absolutely surge in the book. Absolutely. And the character of Roslyn is based from this character who had a sugar, sugar addiction. She genuinely, because the sugar addiction came from moments of abuse. You know, one thing leads to another leads to the street and that's sort of like, that's me. Clinkers, right? Yeah. You're amazing. Thank you for not on this book so well. It's such a tribute. Can I put you on the spot and read my favourite paragraph? Oh, I'd be honoured. I mean, there's a lot that I love, but I kept coming back to this one. Oh, you're the best. I love this. So just go for it, but it's from down there. Oh, you know that, you know, this, don't you? I sit upright, I sit upright on the edge of the bed, something right and truly the artist has captured in the girl, the sorrow in the girl, the hope in the girl, the words coming from the girl's mouth, silly words, dumb words that never should have been captured in time. I am invisible. The speech Bobble reads, I am invisible. That's me crying. No lower. Thank you. That, that moment, and I won't say what's happening there, but that moment started the book. Like, I started at that moment because I loved that moment so much. A thief, a thief finding a moment of true love inside the room that she's robbing. And I'm like, oh, that's cool. I read that before, you know, and I was like, that could be a good start to a love story. So I just love, I love that you've noted that and it's, yeah, it's my favourite part in the book, my favourite part. Yeah. Friend, it is, I hope I can call you a friend now. You sure can, you sure can. An absolute honour and to the listeners, I can't wait for you to read this book. By the time this pod comes out, it will be available and on the shelves and please get yourself a copy. And if people want to get around and support something you're so passionate about, this homeless crisis, is Second Chance a good thing to support? Blah, that'd be beautiful if anyone wanted to look up Second Chance and their versions of it in their city. You know, organisations helping women in particular on the street, it's one of the most rapidly rising demographics, women, particularly women over 55. So it's, yeah, I'd just urge you to just to sort of keep a little piece of your heart open to that kind of world. That's amazing. Trent Dalton, you are amazing. Lola, I've got one thing to say to you, please don't stop sharing your light. I'm going to repeat it. I've really loved this. Thanks for having me. It's a real joy. You're wonderful. That's a wrap on another episode of Feellessly Failing. As always, thank you to our guests. And let's continue the conversation on Instagram. I'm @YummoLoliberi. This pod-y, my word for podcast, is available on all streaming platforms. I'd love it if you could subscribe, rate and comment. And of course, spread the love. (sighs)
