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TCS | The Ronnie Apteker interview - his life in Ukraine

The 24th of February 2022 is a day Ronnie Apteker – and millions of his countrymen in his adopted home of Ukraine – will never forget. Apteker woke up early that morning – as millions of others did – to the sound of bombs and missiles raining down. After months of military build-up along Ukraine’s eastern flank, Russian dictator Vladimir Putin had ordered a full-scale invasion. In this special edition of the TechCentral Show, we chat to Apteker – a pioneer in South Africa’s internet industry – about his life in Ukraine amid the ongoing war. Apteker has a storied career as co-founder of Internet Solutions, one of South Africa’s first and most successful internet service providers. He is also well known as a producer and promoter of movies, including Material and Beyond the River. In 2015 Apteker bought an apartment in Kyiv and started a new life in the city, attracted by the country’s diverse tech scene and its incredibly beauty. He had established a new and promising life for himself in Ukraine – he married a local woman, Marta, with whom he has a young boy (affectionately called “the Bunster”). Both Marta and the Bunster are now refugees from the war, living in Poland. Never in a million years did Apteker expect he would be caught up in a major conflict, never mind the biggest land war in Europe since World War 2. Today his life involves moving between Poland and Kyiv, where he has friends as well as business interests in the tech sector which he continues to nurture despite the chaos caused by Putin’s aggression. In this sometimes emotionally raw interview, Apteker tells TechCentral editor Duncan McLeod about why he left South Africa to go and live in Ukraine, how the war started (he woke up early one morning to missiles raining down on Kyiv), what it’s like to live in a warzone, and how he’s coping with the daily hardships caused by the conflict. Apteker, who is known for his wicked sense of humour – in a previous life he was even briefly a stand-up comedian – admits it’s been exceptionally difficult to stay positive about the future, but that he’s managed to keep going even us Putin’s war machine grinds on. In the interview, Apteker chats about his daily life now and what it entails; the US election, and why Ukrainians fear another Donald Trump presidency; the new documentary film about the war that he’s been working on; his passion for moviemaking; and why love is the most important thing in the world. Don’t miss the interview.

Duration:: 1h 19m
Broadcast on:: 28 Jul 2024
Audio Format:: aac

[MUSIC] >> I'm Duncan McLeod and this is the Tech Central Show. TCS is brought to you by MTN Business. Please visit them at emptyandbusiness.co.side for more information about their products and services. We thank them for partnering with the show to bring you these great interviews. A reminder that you can subscribe to tcs@youtube.com/techcentral or simply search Tech Central, one word in your favorite podcasting app and you'll find all of our shows there. Now, I'm very excited about introducing today's guest. He's joining us from a war zone, Keve in the Ukraine where he relocated, I think about six or seven years ago, he'll correct me if I'm wrong there, and he has now found himself caught up in the biggest conflict in Europe since the Second World War. Ronnie Aptecker, South African Internet Pioneer, Filmmaker, and entrepreneur. I wish we could say we're doing this under better circumstances, Ronnie, but the reality is your life has been upended in the last two and a half years. How are you? >> Thanks, Duncan, and thanks for having me on your show. I'm alive. >> That's a good start. >> Yeah. The air christy just came back on, a few moments ago, and there haven't been an area at Sirens since this morning, so let's hope that me and you can have a chat without me having to head to the bomb shelter. If it's okay, I don't mean to be like a school teacher, but you mentioned the Ukraine. >> It's just Ukraine. >> It's just Ukraine. Where does that come from? >> The day is probably one of the origins of the war. >> Okay. >> Because it's not an area, it's a country, and unfortunately a lot of people in the world confused the two, you know, especially before the full-scale invasion. You know, if Ukraine was ever mentioned, people would often say, "Oh, Russia." It's not Russia. >> Not Russia. >> Ukraine, you know. >> It's a different, that's why there's a war, the different countries with a different language and a different culture and a different set of values, really. But unfortunately, there is this full-scale invasion, and it's turned everybody's lives upside down in the last two and a half years. In theory, the war began in 2014 in Russia and its Crimea, but the world didn't really respond too much. And somehow, Ukrainians kind of just accepted that, and life went on. Like, it was kind of contained to, you know, part of the country, more of the east, and of course Crimea got annexed. But then in February 22 on the 24th, when I was sleeping at five in the morning, you know, bombs fell out of the sky all over the country, and the building was shaking. This is where I'm sitting now, shaking. And to say that we, in our pants, was like an understatement. I've been through some trauma in life, but this is a whole other kind of trauma. And it's very sad, Duncan. It's very sad that Ukraine was no threat to anyone. They were growing at quite a pace. Everyone who came to Kiev said that, you know, the city was on track to be the hotspot of Europe within a few years. They kept calling it the next Berlin. And I know that your media company is called Tech Central. This is Tech Central in Kiev and Ukraine, or the tech hub of Europe, you know. And a lot of people wouldn't know anything about that, but they are, and so much is built here. So many apps that we use come from Ukraine. You just don't know they came from Ukraine. - Because they were built in Ukraine. - It's an incredible tech talent base in Kiev, isn't it? - All over the country, you know, my understanding is like Ukraine was like the brain's trust of the Soviet people. And when people asked what the war was about, like Russia's the jealous ex-boyfriend, and they want the girlfriend back. But the girlfriend has developed with all the problems of corruption and bureaucracy and Soviet legacy mentality. The country's got lots of problems, you know. I come from SA. I mean, you know about load shooting. I should be well prepared for load shooting. What I'm not well prepared for is load shooting and missile strikes at the same time. - At least we don't have those here. - Yeah, well, you know, I assume we can talk openly. - Of course. - You know, I love South Africa. I love South Africa. I've met many soulful people there, people like you. And South Africa has given me everything. Friends and family there. I mean, less and less. One is we're getting older. Some people pass on. But two, a lot of people, as you know, leave South Africa, which is sad and worrying. You know, there's that term, the brain drain. And now there's that here as well because of the war. So many people have lost their homes, left the country being displaced. And there's a huge outflow of talent. And the labor force, Ukraine is a big, like working country. People make things here, you know, manufacturing and give you industry. I think if I'm not mistaken, Ukraine is the biggest steel iron ore producer in Europe. It's the fourth largest food producer in the world. You know, if you're wondering why the food prices keep going up and up and up. A lot of it has to do with the war here. You know, I know that Ukraine, you know, a lot of people will say, oh, those are opinions. Those are facts. You look on Google, I think Google facts are pretty good, you know, quick facts. But I think Ukraine is responsible for 70%, for example, of Egypt's food supply. It's a significant and many countries. Like I think there's 30 odd countries in North Africa, Asia, Middle East, you know, that rely on the staples from Ukraine. I know that like Ukraine producers, three quarters of the world's sunflower cooking oil. So when fast food prices keep going up, because there's problems here, you know. So people might not know of Ukraine, but they can see the effects of what it means to damage and destroy and destabilize a big producer to food in the world, to IT skills, to creative skills is, you know, Ukraine makes rockets and airplanes, you know, not many countries make aircraft. You need a whole range of talents and skills to make an aircraft. The world's biggest aircraft, the Antonov, the one that blew up. - Destroyed. - There's more Antonovs, but that massive one, the huge one, I think it's called the Mariah, and if I pronounce it right. That one was blown up at the beginning of the war. That was the world's biggest play. And I'm sure it was featured in a couple of Hollywood movies, that big monster play, but you need a certain kind of talent to produce airplanes, you know. So Ukraine is like, you know, smart, smart, smart people, and also very funny people. - Sir. - But I will get into that. - So Ronnie, for those who don't know the story, I mean, you're famous in South Africa for being an internet pioneer for founding or co-founding internet solutions back in the early 1990s. You then went on to a career of producing and making movies. You had a stint as a stand-up comedian, you've been an entrepreneur. You've had a, you've had a storied career, but I don't think a lot of people know how you ended up in Ukraine. And what's the back story there? Why are you in Kiev? - That's a, well, you said it perfectly there. And I hope anyone says to you later in the day tomorrow the Ukraine said, no, it's Ukraine. - Ukraine, yeah. - That's why the reason is this war, because it's not some area of Russia. It's a sovereign nation, you know? Wow, that's, well, there's going to sound a bit odd and it's not because I've seen the same person. I'm a nerdy guy with a sense of humor that's always been a bit of a workaholic. I'm not like a very money-orientated person. I've been lucky enough in life to have, you know, come into some money, I've seen money come in. I've seen money go out, you know? - Let's listen to movies. - Yeah, well, you know, they say, how do you make a small fortune? I know it from people who have wine box, and it's the same, the same story. Like, you spot up with a, how do you make money in a wine form, you know? You start up with a, how does it go? - How do you make a fortune? - How do you make a small fortune? How do you make a small fortune in the wine industry? The same in the form, it started the big fortune, you know? So, you know, so, you know, so the vacuum cleaner industry is often referred to, and it's like, everything has been sucked up. All not everything, but sure. But it's not, you know, be long enough. It's never been about the money. Like, the fact that we try and tell stories in forms and sometimes they work, sometimes they don't work, it's like when you put your heart into something and it doesn't work, sometimes for legitimate reason. When you look back at a form, you know, everything in life doesn't mean you have been around. Like, everything in life is about to fit. But when you look at something right now, we don't always understand it. But if you look at it years later, you can reflect and say, "Oh, that form was really crap." (laughs) But we're smoking a lot of weed or something, you know? So we've made some mistakes as well. And, you know, now I can, you know, I've always been able to laugh at myself. And now we can laugh at them. But I remember you, you generously gave us some time on material, which was quite a milestone. It was like a turning point for, not only was it a beautiful piece of work, but it actually marked the start of more purposeful project, which is interesting considering the first form project I was involved in was called PIP. But the forms after that, for the last 11 or 12 years, at the halfway mark, they had a lot of social relevance and did a lot of good, but not all of them unfortunately found a home. And some of them have never been seen, and it hurts. You're not like you do all this work, you take a risk time and money, of course. But that's the nature of all creation, whether you're creating software, writing a book, and Duncan, you know this. You know this as a creative person yourself. You are writing, you can write something and maybe it lands and maybe it doesn't land. But we keep trying, you know. Sometimes it takes us a short time, sometimes it takes us a lifetime, sometimes we spend a small amount of money, sometimes we spend too much money, and we can't ever predict what's gonna land and what's gonna find the audience and what doesn't. Sometimes even good creativity does not find an audience. It's often about luck, you know. But Duncan, I was trying to say, Duncan, but this is gonna sound a bit strange, but I've had a real kind of breakdown since before the war started. And it's been dramatic. And like you mentioned things that, I know that you are correct. You know, co-founding into the solutions and lots of projects, but I honestly don't remember any of it. - Really? - And I mean, I'm not being funny, I don't know how to be silly. I just, I can't relate to it, I think. - Really? - So, I just, Duncan, what I've been through in the last two and a half years is like, it's not something really like, it's hard to understand. - Yeah. - It doesn't make me sunny, special or better or whatever it is, but it's just, it's changed everything and everyone. My values have been challenged and my priorities have definitely been shaken up. Whether we continue to live with those new values when the war one day ends, which at this stage looks like it's gonna gone forever, but I don't know. But there's definitely some good things that happen because of this war. People here become more community-oriented. I know all my neighbors in the building. They were friendly before the war, it's a very friendly place. But now everybody goes out of their way to say, "If you need anything, here's my number, call me." You know, when you're in the bombshell, that's three in the morning, people talk. You know, it might be the end. You know, I mean, no one I know has died in a bombshell. You follow the rules, but it's traumatic. And when they knock out missiles, you know, and we're not talking, one shouldn't compare anything, you know, wars and stuff, but there's conflicts all over the world. The Russians are not playing games. When you're talking about like a hypersonic missile the size of a putco bus, you know, I mean, this is a big firepower. You know, I don't know how many tons of ways, maybe two tons or more, 20 tons. I don't know, it's huge. When that thing gets knocked out of the sky above the city, when they're all like able to intercept, some of the missiles get through like two weeks ago when they hit the two hospitals. I think 30 missiles and I don't know how many drones were sent to key of that Monday and four got through and did a lot of damage. They're damaging the electrical infrastructure. You know, the question is if they keep attacking the infrastructure, will there be no electricity? I don't know. And can a country function? Again, coming from South Africa, these are questions we've all asked ourselves. So it should be not unfamiliar terrain to me. But South Africa is not a war zone, you know, at least not in the missiles since Africa's got a violent crime problem. So it sounded very beautiful what you're describing and even, I guess, flattering. But I honestly, like my corporate life and whatever I've been through, I don't know, I just, I can't even relate to it anymore. Just because of this life-changing craziness. And again, I'm just to be, you know, grounded. I'm not saying I'm a better person. - Sure. - Same person. But I've been shaken up to the point where just nothing seems the same. But I'm the same guy. I still have my sins of humour. I still work too much. I still stress too much. - It's leaving an option. - I believe. - It's leaving an option. - Well, thank you, I don't, I mean, give every other man. We basically are in Western Poland, me and my wife and our little boy. And when our little boy was one and a half about, that's when the war started, we left. Me and two other drivers drove like a couple of friends, a few friends drove out of the city. Ooh, I froze there, are we back? - Yeah, yeah, all good. - Do you wanna make an aesthetic? - So a couple of friends of us drove like in a small convoy. It was like, it's a real thing. I don't know how many hundreds of thousands, it might have been millions of cars were driving out of Ukraine. Took us about a week to get out of the country in the winter and we got to the Polish border and we asked people how long they've been waiting. Like some said three days, you know, three days in the snow in a car with a little baby. - Sure. - Yeah, these are things that you don't ever want to live through again. I don't wish on anyone and they change you, you know? They change you. What attracted you to the, you almost said the, what attracted you to Ukraine in the first place? - I mean, you're actually out there just now. It's a very, you know, I was rambling on about just, you know, previous life stuff. I mean, obviously I remember it, but I just, it just seems all so foreign to me now. The story is quite simple. You know, I had a friend who, Jacques, who lives in London, is also a African entrepreneur and he was part of like a Harvard entrepreneur program for entrepreneurs from all around the world. And this was 17 years ago and he got like an invitation from a Ukrainian entrepreneur to come to Kiev and he said, I'll pick you up at the airport and show you around and introduce you to other entrepreneurs. And I had done some traveling in a few years before and I was always keen to go and see, you know, the city of Kiev, it's a very beautiful place. It's extremely beautiful city. I've been lucky enough to do some traveling and I've been to just about all major Eastern European capital. Some of them are magnificent, including some Russian cities and like St Petersburg, which is beautiful. But to me, Kiev is kind of the motherload. This is just beautiful on another level and so unusual and quirky and creative. And it's a spirited place with a real free sense of everything, freedom to talk, freedom to create. You know, there was a real democracy here. You know, they elected a Jewish comedian as the president who became like a war leader. I mean, it's about as democratic as you can get, you know, the neighbors that decided to invade have had the same crazy leader for over two decades. It's not a democracy, you know, it's a dictatorship. They can have every election they want, it's nonsense. But anyway, but here there is real freedom and it threatens Russia to have like that old girlfriend, you know, growing up, democracy, free press, next door. It's a very dangerous kind of example to the Russian citizens. It threatened the Kremlin to have all these free thinkers next door. When they're just a part of us, you know, when they colonized just a while ago. So it created a threat, all the stuff about NATO, Schmidt, there's all nonsense. Right, there was no threat from Ukraine to Russia. Nobody in Ukraine ever spoke about invading Russia. This doesn't make any sense. It's like David versus the lion. How would they do that? Creme was making food and software and fashion and phones. There wasn't a month that went by before the pandemic. We went down to and we forget pandemic. Yeah, they don't forget the pandemic. I was at a meeting at a conference on Wednesday and somebody said pandemic, "Ah, those were good days." (laughing) Bring them back, good times. You know, all you need is a few rockets up the torus and you've got a cheese pandemic. Wow, that's what it's like. Best time sold. Good days. (laughing) You know, it's one of our perspectives, you know? She's bringing back the pandemic. Those are much more peaceful times. So my friend got this invitation and I was really keen to go. And it was just like a no-brainer. You know, we didn't need visas. We both had foreign passports. And I'm of a group of South Africans that was first-generation South Africans. My parents were foreigners. So I was born in Cape Town and I have a South African passport and I have a European passport. And same with my friend. He was born in SA and his parents were foreigners. So we didn't need visas. Ukraine, you don't need a visa to come here on most passports, not America and not European. South Africa, interestingly, you do need a visa. It's not hard to get it from Pretoria, but every time I had South African guests here, they needed to get the visa. So we came here and like, we were just amazed. We were amazed at the creative spirit. We were amazed at the eating. I think the eating, I mean, you can't see below you, but put on a couple of kilos. No, I mean, I'm kind of saying, but yeah, if any, put on a couple of kilos. - I remember when we were chatting long ago, Ronnie, when you actually were trying to encourage me to go over there to have a look at Kiev and Ukraine and you were waxing lyrical about it. - I know, I'm encouraging everyone. - Everyone. - But I remember, I'm going to get you to trouble here, especially if your wife is watching this, but I remember how you used to rave about the women in Ukraine. (laughing) - Well, there's a, looks, Africa's also got a lot of beautiful women, but there's a lot of beautiful women in Ukraine too. But in Africa, there's beautiful people as well. Same here, there's a lot of hands for men. No one talks about the men, there's a lot of hands. I know, for some reason, the stereotype is not that at all, but I had some friends come here larger or about most of the summer, we were filming people what you saw and they are part of the film team and they're like a gay couple. And people, again, the stereotypes, "Nah, gay people in Ukraine, you'll get tired and fed it." Such a rubbish thing. There's a huge gay community here. It's a very multicultural city before the war. There's a big, for example, well, again, before the war, there's a big Pakistan community here in Kiev. Now, that's an interesting question. What are they doing here? They're in IT. They speak English. They had a lot of customer facing roles 'cause the Eastern European culture is maybe a bit more shy, less kind of customer engaging or customer facing. So a lot of Pakistan-y IT guys came here and loved it. They loved it, you know? And I don't know if they're still here now with the war, even though I do see different cultures in the city. But my film team friends were amazed. They said, "The men are so handsome." I said, "I always said that." But for some reason, they just get a bad rap, you know? And it's like, you know? It's like, I mean, they're some handsome men, yeah, absolutely. And it's like, for some reason, they just, they are, they neglect them, you know? So a shout out to all the handsome men of Kiev and Ukraine. But it's a beautiful country, the physically, the country's spectacular, you know? It's hard to compete against Africa. South Africa has to be like one of the most beautiful land in the world. And I can't say I know South Africa like extensively. But from what I know about the garden route, the Midlands, you know, and there's more to it, the Drawkensburg, Pots of Johannesburg, you know? - Will you ever come back? - You know, that's a good question. That's a good question. So we did come back for a part of the walk because we didn't know where to go. - Right. - And my wife was lucky enough to have a visa because we were actually coming to my brother's wedding, which we couldn't get to because if you remember, at that time, there was that lost spike in the pandemic madness, the only crop thing that was there. And then for a couple of weeks, all the flights got canceled, so we couldn't get out. It was just a bit nuts. And we had a baby. And then the fear is if we got out somehow, we couldn't get back, you know? And then my mother-in-law would be stuck looking after our toddler for months. So it was a, it was a mad time again. That pandemic was mad, you know? So, but our wife had the visa. So she had like a multiple entry visa because we actually thought we would come back a few times that year, you know, in 2022 to visit and maybe a holiday. And then we landed our coming back, you know, because of the war. And we had a lot of problems with visas because our son entered on his European passport. He's got Ukrainian passport and European passport. And he could only stay for 90 days under the law. And we just couldn't get an extension. And I can, you know me, I'm not like a lazy guy. And I'm not scared to write letters and call. I'm always polite and professional. And I'm not, I'm not the smartest guy, but I'm not an idiot. Did everything buy the book? Oh, it was, we couldn't get a visa. And it wasn't so easy to stay into that. But then we wanted to get back to Europe because my wife was missing her family and I wanted to get back to Kiev. And we decided to come back. And we've been in in in Rodslav in Poland for over a year. And I take the train to Kiev like every five, six weeks for about two, three weeks at a time. And we launched at some hours here for about two months because we were shooting and that was the form that you saw that kind of, this is all sample real form. Which is a project that has kind of kept me a little bit sane during this time because it's something meaningful and purposeful that we started before the war in 2018. Because there was like this inspired vision by a bunch of Africans that said, let's try and tell the story about this city of IT entrepreneurs. We started with a project about IT entrepreneurs. I come from an IT background. I understand entrepreneurship and we had a great starting point. Then the pandemic came and we had to kind of press pause like the whole world pressed pause. And then in January 2022, I was already booking air tickets thinking, okay, we're back in business. And then obviously, February later on the 24th, universe told us that there were other plans for all of us. So we found a way to continue the story with zoom interviews and then actually shooting in the city that summer. And we just putting the last kind of finishing touches on the form. And it's turned out beautiful, but we have some challenges with it. Is that there's now an abundance of projects about Ukraine. Most of them are war forms. We didn't make a war from the war. Access a catalyst for transformation. And of course, we have to talk about the war, but we didn't make a format the war matter for my life on people or team to live. And it's very uplifting and tender as per the teaser. But when you try and contact the distributor, there's another whole set of stereotypes now applying to this kind of category of form. People go, oh my God, another depression form about the war in Ukraine. And I go, no, no, no, we don't have a depressing form about the war in Ukraine, but I can't get beyond that point. 'Cause that's the stereotype. It's gonna be a heavy depressing form about people dying. I said, that's not what we did, but I just can't get them to even have a conversation for some reason. - Has the film got a name? - And we currently it's called We Are Ukraine, but we don't know, you know? If sunny HBO's did, we want to change the name, we'll change the name, you know? But I haven't had any calls, you know, at this point from HBO, so. - Okay. (laughing) - You never know who's watching this podcast. - It's in fact my entire hair. - You never know who's watching this podcast. - Exactly, but my entire form, I was about to say, Duncan, I can talk to you, I know you're long enough, I know you're long enough. I was about to say film a career, but that would be an overstatement, and it would be misguided. It's better to say like my film Journey. 'Cause career sounds like, there's a career. - Well, I was looking at your Wikipedia page, Ronnie, before this discussion today, and there are 24 movies listed there that you were involved in, and I don't even know if that list is complete. - So you use the best language, 24 forms that I've involved with. I never said these are my 24 forms, I've always been involved. It's a more humble language, and it's more honest. I've written some stories, written some chicks, I often drive the teams and lead the teams, that are not like the creative kind of visionary. I add to the vision, on the Ukraine project, I was the catalyst and the spark, but this team has brought a creative sense and artistry to it, and it's been a great team effort for sure. But I was the kind of spark that said, "Hey guys, can I get you some tickets "and come to Kiev in 2018?" And let's explore a new story about IT entrepreneurs, and then it changed into just general entrepreneurs, and then it changed into how people have adapted to a new world, to a new life, and war. I can just share with you a bit all over the place. So I just wanna try and conclude some of your questions. So how I got here, pretty innocent. People got traveling, loved the place, beautiful city. When people asked me, "How come I came to live here?" I think that's, you kind of hinted at that. Maybe I can answer the question as I always answer, 'cause it's quite an unusual answer. If I had to list, I don't get in the five things that I love about being here. I don't wanna say living yet, 'cause I'm living in limbo. And we kind of lost, now I feel at home. But on the weekend, I'm going back to Poland. I'll come back probably the end of August again. And when I mentioned train ride, this ain't Rovers Railway. And it's not a quick trip. It's about this trip we had a delay. It was 23 hours in a sauna train. It was so hot, people were passing out on the train. And the mood on the train, Duncan, is intense. Again, you won't read about this before we were testing, before we went live. There's a lot of things that you don't see on the news. When the children's hospital and the birth hospital, two hospitals, but hit a few weeks ago, it made the news all over the world. Terrible, terrorism, it's not even war, it's just terrorism. But what you don't see in the news, for example, are stories about those trains. Like, and who's on those trains? Take a guess. Ordinary people. No men are allowed to leave here. So who do you think's on those trains? - Women and children. - Women and children? Women, just before they're soldiers, husbands? And nobody talks on those trains. It's just exhausted looking people that are down. You know, so it's not like a raw, or a train. We all go on a summer holiday. Give me that song from Cliff Richard. - Yes. - Train my age, train my age for sure. (laughing) - But I wanted to remember what it's actually. (laughing) - I wasn't a teenager. I mean, I was a lightyear. It must've been like seven, eight, nine or 10. And that song was, you know, art, train my age for sure. So it's not, we're all going on a summer holiday train. You are, as trains are, and they're long. They're not uncomfortable. They're not dirty. They have modern trains. That's a long journey. - How far is Poland from Kiev? - Well, well, from Kiev, to the Polish border, 600 kilometers. - Oh, it's quite a long time. - It's about a thousand kilometers. - Okay. - So I'm doing like a thousand kilometer journey every other month, maybe six weeks. But you have to take two trains. You have to take a train to the Polish border. Then you have to queue up on like an old communist. - Remember, Poland, again, maybe just for the listeners. Poland was not in the Soviet Union. But Poland was communist. Not all communist countries were part of the Soviet Union. So they referred to a lot of those all the communist-style dwellings, you know. Like this train building passport control, it's not an airport, it doesn't have any infrastructure that a Western traveler or you're frozen. I don't, it doesn't have any luck. There's no toilets there. There's no chairs. And there's men and women. And you have to stand there for three, four hours. I've stood there when it's snowed. I've stood there when it rains and it's wet. There's no way to go. It's stuck under a tree. And now there was this heat wave across Europe. And people were like wiping the sweatboard at night. It's like 10 o'clock at night. And babies are crying. And you're, it's hectic, it's hectic, you know. And then you get onto the next train once you've crossed into Ukrainian air space, train space. And that's another 11 or 10 hours. You know, so the whole thing is like 20, 21 hours. We had a two hour delay. It took us back. 23 hours. So the train ride, it's, it's, it's for, you know, it's not, I wouldn't quote it, headish. But it's not for everyone, you know, not for sissies. But I'm from Africa. And that's the, as Duncan, you mean, you know, Africa's not for sissies, that old expression. So what's keeping, what's keeping you going, Ronnie? What, what, what drives you? I know you've always been a guy, it's full of passion. When you get involved in a project, you give it 110%. But this is out of your control. It's a situation that was not of your making. How do you actually stay positive and, and keep going at day today? He's like, and that's a great question. You know, I'm a happy, positive person, as you know, but the last couple of years, I haven't been so happy, also positive. And to be now in Kiev, it's going to be so much sadness. It's not easy, I've got friends. I care about family. We have our home here. I moved over a 10 year period, Duncan, all my personal things. And I'm quite the sentimental person. These, I can look around you. I as paraphernalia is stuff from material, you know, they're stuff from all kinds of projects, failed projects, successful projects, different ventures. And this is where I feel at home. This was meant to be my happy place. If you can see on the camera and you know me, I'm quite a pale guy. I like the long winters. I love the eating here. I was going to tell you the five things that people ask me, because the stereotyping is so ridiculous. Maybe Hollywood has something to do with that, because when you see villains in movies, they're so often Ukrainian, you know. Also African, interesting. Yes. And Ukraine, always the bad guys in movies. Then if you saw that Jason statham or beekeeper, it's one of your latest, you know, but there was like a villain at the end. It was from Safrit. It was crazy. Why? Why is Africa? What has Safrit done to the world? Why is Hollywood always showing bad people to come from Africa and Ukraine? Lethal weapon. You remember Lethal Weapon with Mel Gibson? No. The bad guys were Afrikhanas. No, exactly. No, everybody remembers that. Exactly. But when I tell people the five points, why I love it here, the first point is just not what you expect into here. I love the loft. People say Ukraine, it's not a funny place. I said, you've never been there. What are you talking about? And I've had Duncan, I've hosted here over a long period, even before I was like, we've bought an apartment here. So when I was coming here for like chunks of time, when I said, hey, Duncan, come with me, you would have found so much inspiration for tech stories. And Duncan, I can take people on tech tours in Kiev that are not something that you can get on the tour guide because I've got some amazing access here. I've built up a network of some very cool, sometimes quirky, very funny entrepreneurial friends because I come from an IT background. They all speak English again, against the stereotype. Nobody speaks English. A lot of people don't speak English, but in my group, most people are not speaking English pretty well. They're very funny. So I take people to see different companies because I've got access. Some of the companies we've been to, you'll probably know the names. We took some guests just before the war started in January when the pandemic was coming to an end. And the Omicrom thing kind of died down. I think it was last week in January, 2022. So literally would have been the last set of visitors I had. Some guests came, we went to Grammarie. If we went to Grammarie, it's a Ukrainian business. Right, funny, a business around language coming from a foreign country. - I didn't know that. - A foreign country. No, Grammarie, I'll tell you what you might know that is of Ukrainian origin and things that have been built in Ukraine. So like Ring.com is built here. It's all of that. I don't know if it's Ukrainian-owned. It could be like American-owned, but it's all from Ukraine. - Okay. - Everyone knows Redel in a spark. You know, Ken, my Mac. - Yes. - Oh, there's a huge business called Ajax, where they say Ajax, it says home security system. Big all over the world. That's a proper Ukrainian story. - Okay. - A dribble. I think it's the second biggest job site in the world. It's like Google jobs, is Ukrainian. I'm just trying to think, pet cube is Ukrainian. You know, they have these like cameras and you can send a treat to your pet while you're in the office and put a laser point and the cat jumps around. - Wait, there's many stories here. I'm just like, you know, like software development. There are companies like, is it what is it called, Global Logic? Like Soft EPAM, which I think is one of the biggest. - Okay. - My wife worked at EPAM for many years. I think it's just over five years. EPAM is like, what is equivalent in South Africa? Like BB&D, I think is a well-known big outsourcing firm. I'm involved in a software development business called PGO, and which is something that's in its fourth year and I'm one of the team members. - So business is continuing despite everything that's going on there. - That's actually a great story because you are tech central. You know, as I made that kind of funny comment and I thought it was, but like, this place is tech central from Europe, it is for sure. So PGO connects Ukrainian talent, Ukrainian software developers with companies abroad, some in the US and obviously a lot out of South Africa because that's where we know people. And Duncan, there's one thing that your listeners and you know, if you ask a question to any company in any country, do you need software developers? What is the answer? - Ukraine. - No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Do you need software developers? What is the answer when you ask that question? - Oh, I'm not sure. - Everybody needs software developers. - Yes, of course. - I'm saying like, it's the demand for software. It's like the demand for cybersecurity. - It's endless. - Yes. - You know, I'm sorry, I understood what you were asking. - Maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe I was a threat. You know, wipe my nose there. Maybe I just didn't come across clearly there, but I'm saying if you ask that question, like you need to eat, if everyone needs to eat, like software developers, everybody needs software developers. And there's a shortage, you know? - And Ukraine is the second biggest software developing outsource off to India. If you go to Google and you can do this now, so it's not my opinion, it's like a fact. And type top 10 software outsourcing countries, India is number one and number two is Ukraine. But people don't know that, you know? Just for some perspective, India is six times the size of the action, you know? So India is a lot bigger. But over the years, when I'd met a lot of foreigners here, and that wasn't me having a case here, that was just meeting foreigners here, in IT companies, through mutual friends, they often would talk about, they've changed their software partners from one country to come to Ukraine. And their reasons were always very interesting because Ukraine was a bit more expensive than India, I think it was maybe 20% more. But they were prepared to pay that premium to come to Ukraine over another outsourcing destination. And some of the reasons were really fascinating. One of the reasons is culturally, they liked the fact that the Eastern European culture is very straightforward. So if your software is rubbish, often a Ukrainian guy, it could do with a little bit of finesse and some softness. But they said, Duncan, your software, it's really bad. Thanks. It's pretty direct, you know? Whereas they said in other countries, sometimes, you know, we never get told that. Everything was always good, you know? So Ukrainians are quite straightforward, and they like that. They like the fact that, I think in Ukraine, the software IT degrees five years versus a three-year degree near. So there was a higher quality of skill here. I could be wrong, but that's my understanding. - Okay. - And then there's cultural reasons. For an American or a European person to come to Kiev or a Desser or Boviv or Nipro, it didn't feel that foreign to them. You know, they'd stay at a Radisson or the Hilton, that Ita Burger have sushi. The culture felt very Westernized, you know? And people felt right at home here, you know? But I'll tell you the reasons, like, you know, so laughter was one of the big reasons, you know, that people just are funny here. People say, "Well, they're not funny." You know, like I said, "You've never been there." Second reason is, I mean, the city is beautiful. It's just, it's like a postcard wherever you turn. It's not a perfect city. A lot of it is old. I mean, do you know how old the city is at home? - I don't. - Just like, just take a guess. - Thousand years. - No, close, I think it's 1,600 years. - Okay. - There's the city that the Vikings discovered, you know? You know, the Kiev and Rus, you know, the Vikings discovered this place. From what I, again, if I remember what I've been taught correctly. So, you know, it's beautiful. The eating, and I don't just mean you're training food. I mean, the burgers here, you think you're in LA or something. - Really? - Wow. The burgers, the Italian food. - When this war actually ends, I'm gonna have to come over there and have a burger with you, Ronnie. - Well, if you come, if you came in the war zone, you're in the war. - Yeah. - Viking, you would have enough stories to tell, you know, on your, on your media platform. - Put me off that train journey. (both laugh) - We'd, we'd, we'd, we'd, you'd get by. If it's not the end of the world. You're online on the train, you know, you can do your stuff. I just wouldn't do it in the summer. The summer, you know, in the winter, it's more cozy. - Okay. - Yeah, it's high on the train. - Do you, do you stay in contact with any of the guys from the old days? We had David Frankel on our show "TCS Legends" a few months ago. Do you still chat to David? What about some of the other guys? - Um, I don't chat to many people, to be honest. I think the pandemic also, you know, changed a lot in the world. A lot of people lost contact. I'm sure you relate to what I'm saying. Most people, you know, we, like everybody kind of. - Drifted. - It appeared for a couple of years. I don't know, you know. And in the war, the war, and the war, I, I, I, I, I don't know much about Charlie Munger. But, um, something popped up on, I think a Google search or something. That's my random, man. He said something. Never tell people your problems. 'Cause he said 90% of them don't care. Another 10% are glad you got, got those problems. It was a Charlie Munger, but it seems pretty accurate. Because I've always been like a funny guy. And in the last few years, I've been a bit of a sad guy. And, um, seems like people don't like a sad guy, you know, and a lot of people just like to love me. - People like to laugh. - I don't know, I'm so funny. But like a lot of people just stopped talking to me, maybe because they were tired of hearing about the war. - Did you give up the standard routine entirely? - Uh, well, no, we didn't sit there. I mean, you, but you can go to, you can go dunk into standup comedy now in Kyiv, in the war. And a lot of comics show up because it's like a bomb shelter. And there's an instant audience. - Right. - So you can pick up a mic and stop jamming it. (laughing) - So you've done that? - Yeah, I haven't done that. I've been invited to a couple of standup comedy underground gigs, - Right. - you know, during the war. I, I, I, just to finish like the five points of... - Yes. - The, the laughter, the beauty, the city is just magnificent. The quirkiness, I'm quite a quirky individual. It's a very quirky place, reminds me of Greenwich Village, the city, you know? The eating, the taxi in the creative scene. Ukraine was becoming a phone destination before the pandemic. There wasn't a month that went by where you didn't see some area of the city shut down by a Hollywood production. And every other week, maybe every other second week, there were some local news, Tom Cruise was in town one day, they saw him on the train, you know, or, you know, the red hot chili peppers were jamming, you know, some pub and you don't, wow. Like it was happening and every other week, something was going down in the city. And there were loyal diehards that ever since I discovered this place, kept coming up like Depeche Mode. There wasn't a winter with Depeche Mode. There's always advertising. Remember, we got off the plane, me and Jack, we drove into the city in a taxi and said, hey Depeche Mode, I love Depeche Mode. This could be a cool adventure, you know? And every year there was that February, there was always Depeche Mode. And then the pandemic was the end of that. I mean, for all cities. And then the war was also, you know, the end of any concerts. And other reasons. - Let's sum that thought up. I mean, the city is safe. You know, I never heard of, London is more dangerous than, than, than here. Obviously now. - Or tribulations. (laughing) - Yeah, exactly. I mean, obviously now there's a whole different, there's an existential crisis, you know? But the city is safe. I'm gonna prepare some anecdotes. So I wanted to just, - Sure. - Be respectful to your, please go ahead. But I mean, one of the anecdotes, 'cause I am still someone who loves laughter. So I never was conscious, thinking of crime issues in Ukraine in Kiev. I never was. But I read that crime in Kiev is an all-time low. I never knew it was even an issue. But it's an a record low. So that raises the question. I've come and said a record low. And the reason is because of the war, there's just no tolerance for crime. If I steal your phone, I just get shot on the spot. (laughing) That's not me, that's crime. They're fighting a war. No one's got time to arrest you, go to court, plead the case out. Do you steal something? They just shoot you. You go to jail 100 years. There's no question. Because there's no time for it. So nobody is messing around now. Thought it was quite a funny story, you know? Some other funny stories, you know? There's many funny stories with the war. I mean, they said funny. But one of them is an old, you know? It's not a Ukrainian joke. It's probably a American's den of comic. But you asked it earlier when we were testing in that. Like, what do you do if there's an incoming missile? You know? You can go to the bomb shelter. Depends, you have an app. So my mother-in-law once said this is a funny story. The app told her that the missile was coming to care in six months. So she said, let me just get down to the lobby. And I can have a quick coffee because there's a coffee machine she likes. And then she's still got two minutes to get the bomb shelter. So she worked out from the app that she could get down, have a quick coffee, and then say goodbye and still get to the bomb shelter. (laughing) Hollywood can't write scripts that crazy. (laughing) It's her main story, it's her main. But that's the new reality. You know, that is the new reality. But there's that old stand-up commentary. Like, what do you do? You know, if like, you know, if a nuclear weapon is getting said to you, great. Which is one of the global fears, you know? - Yeah. - I think it's an unfounded fear. That's my opinion, not a fact. I don't believe the Russians would ever do that. Because that is-- - That would be the end of the Russians. - I think so. I think it would be the end of the world if we go into a nuclear war. I don't know. So, and people who know Russians say they are too cowardly to do that. Again, I don't know if that's-- - What is the-- - Yeah, that's the opinion. - What is the first thing you think you're gonna do when the war is finally over? I don't know. Dance for 24 hours, set to be shaded. - Sorry, set it again. Is that a key shade? Like, well, dance in the streets for 24 hours. You know, some people say the war will never be over. Ukraine and Israel. Ukraine is like the next Israel. Now that the threat is real, it'll never go away. You know, the war could stop tomorrow and come back in a year, you know? It's not a Putin problem. It's a regime problem. If Putin died tomorrow, again, this is an opinion. It's an opinion that I buy into, you know? But they say if Putin dies tomorrow, some other crazy person will take this place, you know? Or her place, and it doesn't have to be a map, you know? But if you watch some of the Russian propagandists on their television channels, they're often on Twitter and they're like a crazy ideology, you know? - What is the view in Ukraine? And what's the up view of what's happening in America now with Trump and a possible second Trump presidency or would that be a, is the view in Ukraine that that would be a disaster? - You know, that's a question that affects the whole world because every person on the planet, whether they are conscious of it or not, has a relationship with America through movies, post-food, fashion, iPhones, technology. We don't have relationships with Argentina or Uganda or New Zealand. But everyone is connected to America. What do they say if America gets the flu, we all get a cold or something like that, you know? So America's wellbeing has a huge ripple effect on the world. And of course, in Ukraine who leaves America is of significance because if the next president throws Ukraine under the bus, that's just gonna be tragedy, you know? And it's a really a tragedy. So, you know, if it gets worse, if Ukraine is abandoned, it's of great concern here. On the train ride in last week, we were online the whole time. Everyone was on the, everyone, nobody slept on that. I hardly sleep on the train, but there's a reason why everyone was awake on that train. You know what happened last week, Monday? They announced in America, J.D. Vance, he has the vice press. - Yes. - And it was on everybody's phones on the train. And I could see people just like shrugging, like, you know, they're not Americans, but like I said, what happens there has a bearing here. And he has said he doesn't care about Ukraine. - Oh really? - Quite, it's on all the news, J.D. Vance does not care about Ukraine. It's a fact, they've got like snippets of him saying, I don't care what happens to Ukraine one way or the other. So yeah, so then they are concerned, but it's out of everybody's control. Whoever is the president of America, they would have to deal with Ukraine somehow, you know? Let's hope they deal with Ukraine favorably. - Yeah. - You know, we don't know. But there is, Duncan is a very sad, discussion here that things are gonna get a lot worse before they get better. Maybe that's part of the getting worse, that they are more vulnerable in like four months time. It's not long to go in November. So maybe in four months time, they're even more vulnerable because their biggest partner has, you know, closed the tap, you know? - It's very concerning. I don't know, just to answer some of your previous questions. So yeah, I am in touch, you know, with Dave, you know, obviously with Saki, Saki's also part of the PGO team. And I'm now in touch with some new South Africans that run the PGO team, Dmitry and Nick, you know, very, very good, humble young guys that have been to Kyiv in the second year of the pandemic. My role then was to introduce them to some really cool and solid like programming houses here. I think if I'm not mistaken, Duncan, this is also interesting fact for your listeners. The last time I checked the data, there's about 20,000 software developers in South Africa. I think plus minus, maybe someone can correct us. But there was a couple of years ago, I don't think it would have changed too much. I know there's a bigger skill shortage than ever was I know through the PGO research that everybody's just needing developers. And in Ukraine, I think there was 250,000 software developers. Wow. So yeah, and I think in India, it's like six times a size. So there's probably a couple of million software developers, you know? Yeah, so that shows you the kind of significance of the brain's trust here. Yeah, so I am in touch with, you know, a few... Your brother? ...from your brother? Is he... Do you... He's been to here many times. Is this one in South Africa? He's still in South Africa, yeah, yeah. He's been to here many times. One of my best memories with him was I'm not a... As you know, Duncan, I'm not a sporty person, but him and his older son, Jude, who's a lovely guy. Nah, he's now a guy, he's not a... So adult. 22, 23, they came here for... They both Liverpool freaks. They came here for when Liverpool played a real Madrid. Oh, yeah. And what's it called? I think it's called Champions League. Champions League. Not Europe. Champions League. I'm not a sporty guy. Me neither, but... And I've never been to a football match, yet alone, like a free-ass football match, like a major final with like... I think there was 70 or 80,000 people in the stadium, it was capacity. And I've never seen the city like that. And my brother, who's been to many events, said he's never seen an event like that. Wow. One of the things that is unusual about the city is that the stadium is smack in the city center. Remember, for the South Africa World Cup, you had to take a bus to get to the main stadium, and here you just walk to the city, you know, that's smack in the city. And because of that, they've closed all the streets down and made like a mighty ground. It was never a story or an incident about mugging the city to deliver a world-class event. Without incident, maybe 100,000 people came through the city that weekend, and everybody was amazed. They were amazed. I unfortunately invested. Motion Liverpool had no clue what I was doing. They were doing it again. I thought of crying when they lost. Said, "I'm not a soccer fan!" But everybody was 70% of the audience. The crowd was there for loop. And when they lost, they all just started getting sad. I didn't even know about soccer, but it was so emotional. Everybody went home. If they'd wondered, it would have been all night party. Nobody said a word. Everyone just went to sleep, and there was the end of the night. There was no all night party. But what an experience, you know? What an experience. That was 2018. - Is your brother still a professional bridge player, by the way? - Yeah, yeah, he is. He's this African champion, and he's played in many tournaments around the world. And I think that one day he'll be the world champion. You know, he's driven by an incredible passion for it. He doesn't stop. He's got the ability to play. And I think sponsor the team, if I'm not mistaken. And they are spring box. They are spring box bridge players. And... - Let's get him on the show sometime, and have a chat with him about it, actually. You're good to chat to Elon Evans back into him for probably 25 years. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know, look, he's, you know, he's a very bright guy. I mean, he's a modest, you know, it's not like a flashy liver. He's a very down-to-earth guy. Yeah, and he's also been around. He's done a lot of things, you know? - Yeah, yeah. - He'll be interesting to talk to. But he's kind of under the radar. You know, he's not really in the news or anything like that. He's just getting on. He's got four kids keeping him busy. - Okay. (laughing) - He runs around for a big part of the year with bridge tournaments, takes up a lot of time. - Yeah. - You know? - Okay. - But... - Don't you know, are there any specific questions you wanted to ask? - I, you know, you know, I know you've got some errands to run and we could talk all afternoon and reminisce about the old days, et cetera, et cetera. And I thought, let me ask you a question to conclude the discussion today. I was trying to think, as we were talking today, what I could ask you as a concluding question. But I thought, let's go back to your movies. It's been the passion that's been in your life for decades. And I thought, maybe let me ask you what your three favorite movies are that you've been involved in over the years and why. - Well, I have to say, I have to say the current, the current project, only because it is so important. And we've done such a beautiful job in it. Whether anyone sees it or not, I don't know, it's becoming increasingly difficult for indie filmmakers in indie filmmakers to find distribution. And then as I mentioned earlier, films about Ukraine, there's so many of them being made. If you look on Amazon's transactional vod marketplace, there's like a dozen forms that no one's watching. It's like a form graveyard, you know? And we don't want to put the form on there because then it just sits there and you pay $20 to watch it and maybe three people watch it. And that's it, you know? So I have to put the current project, obviously material, because that was a huge turning point. And then I'd have to put a few in that last thirds, but I couldn't choose, you know? There was the first film purpose, it started a role. It was Drew Salema, which I played a smaller role in. - That was a great movie. - That was a great project. There was a film called "Vire", which I played a very small role in, but it led to some great things for some really good people. There was "Beyond the River", which... - I loved that movie, that was great. That was a great movie. - Yeah, which was also a purposeful vision from Coth, from Hotlines. - Yeah. - Yeah, I mean, there's a few. If I had a couple of whiskeys, I'm not a drinker, but if I did have, I'd even put crazy monkey in there. Not because it's our best work, but because it was so crazy, you know? And that was just a detour into fun and craziness. There was no great purpose to it. Since material, we've been trying to find projects that have some social relevance, you know? - Yes. - But Duncan, I think, I know everyone who knows me, 'cause you always say that, but I think I'm done. - With movies. - Yeah, yeah. - Okay. - I've done with a lot of things, because of what's happened. - Yeah. - You know, I helped on the PGO journey. It doesn't keep me that busy. I mentor some people. I tried to help us with a few customer engagements. I don't give it an abundance of time, some time, but not a lot. It's an inspiring new venture. It's in its fourth year, I think I mentioned that. But I don't have like a full-time work focus. I became a dad, you know, almost four years ago, and I enjoy being a dad, it kind of woke up something in me that I didn't know about. I can't say I have a plan to be a father. I've always been a bit on my own planet. But a wife and I had this beautiful boy, his name is David, or as I say in the West David. And he speaks three languages. He speaks fluent English, fluent Ukrainian, and he speaks Polish. He's in a Polish kindergarten. We don't know what he's talking about. He's like, you know, he's very funny. And he's kind of very naughty. He likes pranks, like his dad likes to pull pranks. And then he says, I'm just joking. I'm a three and a half year old, knows what a prank is and has a sense of humor around. I'm quite funny. He likes to do make jokes and stuff, hide in the cup and go, boo, you know? Quite a character, you know? Like father, like son. Thank God he doesn't know about the war. You know, he was here when the war started, but he doesn't know about a bombshell. Okay, right, right. And maybe I can leave your listeners with a note that whether you are a parent or not, we all have parents or had parents, you know, we all know what it means to have a parent, or come from somebody, you know? And Duncan, I was in a very fortunate position that I had the capacity to embrace parenthood. I think everyone has the capacity to love and not everybody has the time to embrace that. Like for example, if you are a single parent working in McDonald's and you have two kids, it's very difficult to go home and be like this hands-on, bubbly parent. You know, if you work in a 10, 12-hour shift for minimum wage, and sadly, so many people in the world are in that situation. And you've gotta just be so respectful to people that are struggling to raise their children in very difficult economic conditions. Can you imagine now throw in a wall top of that, you know? If you ever remember that movie, Life is Beautiful. That from back 20, 30 years ago, the Italian world were too beautiful. On the Oscar, on the Oscar, but best of all, what was it name, Roberto Benini, if I remember, beautiful. People are doing that here, thank you, every day. They're trying to create an environment for their kids, you know, that somehow they can live with the wall. So I was in a very privileged position that I had the capacity, the time, to embrace parenthood. And I don't know where this love came from. It's like a love machine switched on inside. And I love seeing my boy. And when I go back around. Then in the week, I see my wife, I'm excited to see her. But when that little boy sees me, like I'm not God to him, you know? And my wife, like we always God, you know? And I can't wait to see him again. So, but I'm lucky that I'm a work-from-home dad and I'm a hands-on dad, even though I come to care, you know? But I'll be back in a week, you know? And I'm with him every day, I fetch him from school. We go to the park together every day for two, three hours. I mean, playing with other kids. Don't know what he's talking about in Polish, you know? I mean, I know some words by now, but... (laughing) You can remember often. You can teach you all the swear words. (laughing) I don't know how much swear words to that. But yeah, exactly, exactly. But I'm not like working a 12-hour ship for minimum wage. And I'm able to embrace that. That beauty and that challenge, and that exhaustion, being a parent, it's not all fun and games. We also, so tired all the time. But we have the ability to love and nurture. Of course, there's no guarantee he's gonna be a champion. Could be a total disaster. (laughing) You know, I know from, from living, you know, for over 50 years that, you know, I've got friends that have grown up kids and my parents have got friends that have kids. Sometimes you can do everything right and your kid becomes a drug addict or a criminal or something. Even if you do everything right. Your kid can still go off in a bad direction and you can, suddenly go gray overnight and never sleep again, if you're a caring parent. You know, so there's no guarantee that we do everything right, that our kid turns out to be, you know, a contributing member to society. But we certainly wanting to do a good job so that he, you know, like, if he became a doctor, we would be thrilled. 'Cause, Duncan, I mean, you've probably seen as much as I've seen. Both of us have been around the block. And we are living in a very selfish world. You know, where people admire influencers, more than they admire doctors. There's something messed up about that. You know, maybe I shouldn't be judging, but I would say the world needs more doctors and teachers and writers and poets and chefs and they need social media gurus. And that's just my, I mean, that's my opinion. Maybe I'm wrong, you know, maybe I'm wrong. And if our old boy never grows up with a phone, yes, I'd be happy, you know, 'cause I don't think it's doing kids any good, you know? I mean, he's still a toddler. But like the teenagers, you go out anywhere in the world and everyone's just glued to their phones. You just go, "Hey, messages, you know, "I became a dad and to embrace fatherhood, parenthood, "as much as it is full-time job." I feel very lucky that I can embrace it for all its joys and frustrations, 'cause there's a lot of like nights you don't sneak, small babies. But it's something I never knew about than until I became a parent. And like this love box, love machines, switch time. It sounds like, it sounds to me like that's what's getting you through this, through this horrible war. - The, the, the, the, the, the, the, ah boy, the phone, friends, even someone, even you, like, I mean, the fact that you reached out to me, I was very touched and flat, you know? If you don't mind having a war refugee, I'm officially a war refugee in Poland. Sounds bizarre. Duncan, if, if 25 years ago, I say, right, I just got a fortune cookie and it said in 25 years, you're going to be a war refugee in Poland. - I wouldn't say. - Duncan, what are you smoking? You know? But that is my, that is my current status. Do you have a status? (laughing) - Thank you. - You know, some people are sea-overs, some people are whatever. - Head chef. - I'm war refugee. - War refugee. - But, but, but. - But don't you think? - He's been in it for a long time. - It's been very good to chat to you. And I, I'm glad you've still got your passion. I hope you keep it despite Putin's craziness. And I hope the war doesn't go on much longer. And that things can get back to normal. And you can get back to normal life of building businesses and do making movies and do whatever, doing whatever you're passionate about. Because I can see that this war has taken it out of you. And, and I'm sure it's taken out of millions of your fellow countrymen in Ukraine. So, I hope it ends soon and I hope, I hope you get back on track Ronnie and hold on tight. And, I'm, I'm sure we're brighter days ahead. - I think it could be maybe that, just because I still have, I'm just looking at the timing. I can, I can spare a couple minutes. There's something which I think, again, like, because of my, just unique circumstances. - Yeah. And something that your listeners, and you understand and I understand is, coming from South Africa. The Africa's carry a heavy load. You know, no other country, do people sit around at dinner table and talk about low cheating schedules? Is it safe to drive home now? Is the ran gonna drop? Are we gonna immigrate? You know, these are not discussions in Netherlands, in America, in England, in Australia. You know, they're not, you know, in, in, we are the other popular places that people are immigrating to, to Valencia and Spain, to Portugal. And I know there's a lot of immigration to these places. - Yeah. - To Canada. People aren't sitting around talking about, oh, did you hear so and so, got attacked last night in their home? Well, the ran dropped or loch and I believe, though, although am I right, I think in the mood that I've seen from SA is a lot better of late. - Which is a lot, you know, there's... - Since the election, things are turned and I think the, I think that the bad news that you see have been excised from the party or some of the bad elements. And this GNU, it seems that we're kind of in the right direction, touch wood, we're kind of hitting in the right direction again, but it's fragile. It's fragile. - Yeah, it's all fragile. If a nuclear war starts here, I might have to come and keep in your cart 'cause it could be that SA is the safest place in the world. (both laughing) - Quite funny there. But you know, South Africans and anyone who's listening, you know, who either left SA or is an SA, I imagine most of your listeners on SA. - Yeah. - South Africans carry a heavy load, you know, it's unusual. And now Ukrainians are carrying this heavy load as well because to wake up and wonder if there's gonna be a missile strike, it's just, you know, it's crazy. Now there's load shooting, the currency's dropping, all the things, you know, we don't have a violent crime problem but we have an incoming missile. (both laughing) - Sure, which is the worst. (both laughing) - Differently, you know, I mean, SA has statistics for a country at war, you know, the murder rate has gone up in the last year. And it's disturbing, you know, but there is no incoming missiles. - Yeah. - You know, I'd rather have a South African crime problem than incoming, you know, Zircon. I mean, just the name Zircon Hypersonic. I mean, like, it just sounds evil. - Yeah. - I don't need the Zircon or the King Joel missile. I mean, like the names, it's just the names. Everyone's a missile expert here, you know. Size of the missile, it's like a standing joke, you know. Last Monday, what does that one mean? The whole world was a cyber security expert and are we all an American presidential expert? Everybody's got an opinion on that. But I still didn't finish that joke. You know, it's not my joke. But there is a joke like, like, what do you do if there is an incoming, big missile coming to give or anywhere in Ukraine? And then there was that old anecdote from America that says you have to find a very big, like steel, thick steel disc. You get under that disc and you pull your knees up really tight to your chest and you take a deep breath and you stick your head between your legs and you kiss your ass goodbye. (laughing) - They seemed a nuclear weapon, you know. I don't even know, bomb shots, you got it. You got to kiss your ass goodbye. So, you know, you know. - Ronnie, it's probably a good place to leave it. Thank you so much for chatting to our audience, chatting to me, chatting to the tech central audience today. And it's been, it's been good to catch up. And I'm sure we'll meet again in person at some point in the coming years. And if the war ends, I will definitely make a plan to come over there and visit and check out this amazing city you're talking about. If you come in the war, I can guarantee you a very good rate at a hotel. - Okay. (laughing) - So, you can stay with me, but I'm saying if you wanted your own spot, you'll get like a whole presidential suite for like $50 a month. (laughing) It's not true, it's not true the hotel, they're actually still pretty busy. You know, thank you. A lot of foreign correspondence, a lot of international, you know, like politician people here, you know, peacekeepers, UN people, you know, missionaries. There's a lot of people, there's a lot of English-speaking people in the city that are just here to help, you know. - Ronnie, thank you so much for your time. - Thanks, I'm safe. - Stay safe, most importantly, and good luck with everything that's to come. - Thanks, thanks. As I say here, slababukrini, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. - Thanks, if I was a bit emotional, it's just, it's not easy, um. - No, understood, fine. - All right, thank you so much. - Thank you so much. - For putting up with sad, war refugee guy. (laughing) - Anytime, Ronnie, anytime. - Yeah, but thanks, thank you. - All the best. - Take care. - I'm sure we'll check. Bye, bye. (upbeat music) (bell dings)