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TCS+ | CYBER1 Solutions and iiDENTIFii on combating identity theft in 2024
Identity theft is a massive and growing problem that requires smart risk mitigation strategies. That is one of the key messages coming out of a TechCentral TCS+ interview with executives from CYBER1 Solutions and iiDENTIFii. CYBER1 Solutions security architect Christiaan Swanepoel and iiDENTIFii co-founder and chief technology officer Marco Wagener unpack the subject in greater detail in the interview. They discuss: • The background to iiDENTIFii and its relationship with CYBER1 Solutions; • The current trends in identity theft, and why this type of theft is a growing concern for businesses; • How iiDENTIFii’s software can play a big role in fighting the scourge of identity theft; • What companies are doing right and wrong in fighting the problem; • How businesses can enhance their identity verification process to mitigate against the risk of identity theft; • iiDENTIFii’s solutions, and how they integrate with existing corporate systems; and • The role that cybersecurity tools can play in protecting personal identities; Swanepoel and Wagener also share their insights into future trends in the identity verification market and how businesses can prepare themselves. This is an important discussion for anyone involved in IT, but especially for those involved in cybersecurity – don’t miss it!
- Duration:
- 40m
- Broadcast on:
- 22 Jul 2024
- Audio Format:
- aac
I'm Duncan McLeod and this is Tech Central's TCS Plus, the Business Technology Show, where we speak to people doing interesting things in business IT, and we're going to be talking about risk mitigation strategies for identity theft today, an important topic, particularly in the South African context, I think, and to do that, I'm joined remotely by two guests. One I think is in Johannesburg, the other one I know is in Cape Town. Christian Swanepul is from Cyber1 Solutions, Christian is Security Architect at Cyber1, and Christian is joined today by Marco Wagner, and Marco is Co-Founder and Chief Technology Officer at Identify. Guys, welcome to the show, thanks for making the time. Marco, I'm going to start with you, if you don't mind, tell us a little bit about Identify when the company was founded, what it focuses on and how the relationship with Cyber1 Solutions came about. Yeah, excellent. Thanks for having us, Duncan. It's really nice to be here. So Identify, so Gure, myself, Gurez, our CEO, Gure Gueva, we roughly in 2017 met each other in the market, and the way that the story started was Gure a friend and that friend, one day the friend's nanny was walking in a very prominent park in Cape Town, and she was walking with a prime with a child in it, and at that stage there was a person who approached her in the park, and he offered her $40,000 rent, a bag of cash, and he said to her, "Just walk with me a little bit, and then we split paths, I'll take the prime, you take the cash," and fortunately the nanny didn't follow through, but it sparked a lot of conversations, and Gurez started doing research around money laundering and fraud, and we were seeing that you could essentially buy a child in South Africa, and that child can get sold off as an orphan in Europe, and all of the money to do that was being washed predominantly in South Africa, and we felt we had to do something about it, so we met up and we had this radical draw formative purpose, and we said we want to stop identity fraud in South Africa and Africa. We started ideating it, and long story short, we came up with the idea that we have to prove that you're a living human being on the other side of a device, and we also had to authenticate identity documents, and we had to do all of this remotely. And the reason for the remote at that time was we were working with Standard Bank, who's also a great strategic partner of us, and we realized there was an opportunity in the market where people who were living in less fortunate circumstances had to travel to banks, and they couldn't remotely open up bank accounts, and with them we launched their MIMO product at that stage, which allowed people to sit at home and use their smartphone and onboard remotely without having to go to the bank and only to get their ID documents stolen. And from there it's just obviously escalated. Well, give us an idea then of half-siber. Sorry, Mark. I was going to ask if you could maybe give us an idea of the size of the business today. Here it's focused, and who some of your clients are? Yes. So today, we are spritter across South Africa and Africa. We're in about six territories in Africa, and we are currently predominantly working with the financial sector, so tier one banks. We're also working with M&O, so tier two level as well, and our technology is deployed in mobile apps, web solutions, and our staff complement is also grown, and we've been very fortunate to close Series A a couple of years ago and some strategic investments. Okay. Excellent. And headquartered down in Cape Town? Yes, headquartered down in Cape Town, staff complement. We have some people in Joburg and Durban, and so forth, but predominantly it's a Cape Town office. Great. Well, Christian, you're no stranger to Tech Central in the TCS+ show, but for those who haven't met you before, tell us a little bit about yourself and the role of cyber one solutions. What do you guys do in the market? So, thanks, Karth. Yeah, so I come in from a security architecture perspective. When we talk about complex solutions, how to integrate it between those different platform experiences that you have inside organizations, be it from consumer, be it from partner, be it from internal services that you offer to your own staff members, and kind of, you know, cohesively looking at how do you integrate, how do those use cases fit into industry standards and policies adhering to compliance and regulatory aspects. Now, where cyber one comes into the conversation is we're a large provider of focused cybersecurity solutions to the same set of customers, for instance, that I identify focuses on, you know, fintech, financial banking, telco, but then obviously we extend that expertise from a cyber security perspective also into the mid-market and SME sizing and public sector. So, quite a broad, expansive portfolio, but again, our focus on cyber security allows us to touch all of the components that a business typically would require to protect against the cyber, you know, criminals and the threat actors and threat vectors that are used to either conduct fraud, either do data exfiltration or either keep organizations at ransom, and that's where our speciality and expertise lie. Okay, okay, so we're going to be talking about identity theft today, but before we delve into that discussion, Christian, just explain the nature of the relationship between a cyber one and identify how do you guys work together. Yeah, so I mean, obviously, identify being a, proudly South African, um, software vendor, you know, the technology that they created and obviously they released to the market and they want consumption on it. Now, as a integrated service reseller that we are, we obviously provide that expertise, how to integrate and implement and how to facilitate that use cases that they specialize on and integrate that into the business use cases that are actually the required thing to solve for, right, and how to also navigate the, you know, both from a technical and from a, um, let's call it a compliance and regulatory perspective, how do you regulate or how do you adhere to those regulations and compliance aspects to make sure that from a posture perspective that those organizations are partners and you know, customers that consider us the partners, that we can make sure that, you know, at the end of the day, um, the solution is actually number one, working, working correctly and adding a clear business value, um, where that context is all around risk reduction and in this case, fraud reduction as well. Okay. So Christian, just staying with you for a moment or too longer, if I may, um, can you maybe unpack for us what some of the current trains are around identity theft and why it's a growing concern for businesses? Yeah, so I mean, in the market, it's now become such a, uh, it's become a norm, right? When we consider threats and threat vectors that are, that organizations are facing and we as individual citizens are also facing, um, we've become quite accustomed to the fact that it's not going away. It's permanently there. Um, and every single organization that we deal from a customer perspective, our customers, um, are constantly being bombarded by either localized threats, international threat actors, um, you know, theoretical internal, uh, internal threat actors, um, fraud attempts at everything. It's, it's happening across the enterprise. We find that every single threat is actually also then, you know, uniformly connected towards specific targeting of data or information, and then or usage of identity information for the purposes of fraud and or, um, you know, further data exaltration, but that identity conversation becomes quite key to most of the breaches and risks that are actually in utilization today. Um, yes, it's very easy to go and reference, you know, the Martin said, attack playbook and try and make sure that from a CVE known vulnerability perspective that your firewalls and that your systems are up to date from a patch perspective. But if we actually look at what those threat actors are doing and what they're trying to achieve, so what they're trying to do with, um, that either the data that they've exfiltrated or the identity that they're not trying to compromise, and it's, it's typically financially orientated that either after a consumer's financial information or financial transactions, or they want to exfiltrate financial information or financial, you know, value from the organization. Um, and it's all identity connected. So I mean, it's, it's, it's so topical that, um, and I had this conversation last week with someone where they said, uh, it feels like we're back in the, the early, early 2010s, early 2005s, where identity was a big topic. And then, you know, 15 years later, we're back at it again, where identity still remains so core and key to the, the concept of internal style verification, internal contractors, threat parties, and now more importantly, the consumer aspect of it. And, um, it's, it's all come full circle really. Well, Marco, let me, let me bring you in here because I identify his, uh, develop some technologies that helps in this, uh, in this fight against identity theft and identity compromise. Now you do, I believe you've developed something called 4D live in this which can play a big role in this area. Tell us about that software and hard works. Yeah, absolutely. So liveness is one of, uh, the big components in our solution and I'll, I'll run through some of the other components as well. Sure. But essentially, um, the idea that we came up with is if you, uh, want to genuinely prove that someone is presently, let me explain that for a second, traditional liveness technologies will prove that a human being is alive and they're three dimensional and there's quite a couple of products up there in the market. But what we bring to the table is we essentially generate a unique series of colors from our servers that we play through the device and we flash it on a person's face. And that's unique by bringing in the element of time. So what that does is it flashes on the person's face, we record it and then we play it back to our servers. Now let's say you for instance record a video clip because you want to compromise Christian's identity and you record a video clip and you try and simulate these flashing colors, you won't be able to replay it if you record on a Monday on a Thursday or even simulate it because the reality is it's unique at that point in time. It was generated for that specific attempt. So we couple that with essentially the defense against defect technology and that's become way more prominent with the AI boom where people are generating avatars that can wink and blink and talk and you can overlay audio and literally inject that into the chipset either into a browser on a machine or with a phone and our technology defends 100% against that. We are very aimed at stopping deep facts. So four dimensionality actually proves that you're not only a living being, being you are a living being at that point in time or the end of the device. So liveness is one component. Yeah. No, sorry. I was going to ask about AI because I mean generative AI has become the big focus in the last couple of years but is generative AI making identity theft much easier? So generative AI definitely it allows attackers to generate fake videos, overlay movements, overlay voice over all those type of things much easier and also these tools of now because they're so prevalent it's become much easier to use technology to inject them into a Google meet or a zoom or into a phone because people are experimenting with this. They want to do it. They want to have an avatar of themselves on a meeting. They want a virtual representation that can be out there to represent them. So I think we've been ahead of the curve because we've been working on this technology for years and years and that's why a lot of the concepts that we're seeing that's coming out now was actually just being practiced behind closed doors but with the AI movement was released into the world. And now if you're using unfortunately if you're using a less effective liveness technology then you're very much compromised. Much easier. So Marcus sorry I interrupted you. You were telling us about the other components of the software solution. Please expand on that. Yeah. So we don't only do liveness we also do face match and then we also are one of the first companies the first company that pioneered the integration with the Department of Home Affairs. So essentially the way that the solution works is after we've proven that you're a living human being. We've only proven that you're a living human being. How do we prove that you are who you really claim to be. And the way that we do that is we allow you to capture your identity document and we support thousands of documents from across the world. We also do authentication checks on those documents because again with AI there's a lot of deep fact documents. So people use Photoshop to overload faces so we defend against those attacks. And then very importantly we've got calibrated face match engines that then will match your life and self against the document but then also against the government authority if there's an image available. And that we call our golden triangle or our triangle of trust. And this powers our onboarding product. And then we also have a product where we then subsequently authenticate you. So how do I say that Duncan is still who we claim to be two weeks ago. And that is a product that's being used by millions of South Africans as we are sitting and speaking here. And that's literally just doing a selfie. And we can prove that you are still the same person you were on a Monday. We can prove that you're same person on a Thursday. It must be a little bit of a war of attrition though with the bad guys who are always trying to break the system and get one up on you. Are you having to is it a war against them? I mean do you have to make changes to your software on a fairly regular basis to keep up with what the bad guys are doing? Yes, absolutely. So there's a lot of research that goes in through red teams. We've got the internal and external teams. And the idea behind that is to obviously experiment with the tools that are out there. So it can be aspects such as doing research on new tools that are coming out on app stores or Google Play Store. And you would be amazed about the number of tools that are on the also dark web. So people sell tools to compromise live news detection software from across the globe. So we look at those trends and then we try and bold that in, write down to security on a device level, of course, leveraging the capability that handset manufacturers and operating system manufacturers gives us. And then also browsers and just using every single tool that we can. And then we also sprinkle some magic on that's part of our intellectual property. For proprietary. We won't go there, Christian. From cyber one's perspective, what are the challenges that businesses are facing? We're trying to deal with the scourge of identity theft. And what are they doing right? What are they doing wrong? Well, I think we, I think we need to start at one common acceptance. We have a process in South Africa where there was attempted, at least mandated to our telcos. And that was the recap process, right? And the reason for that was to try and connect cell phone activity, or at least mobile activity towards a actual identity that owns that cell phone number. Still today, years later, some swaps and theoretical fishing that actually takes places on mobile devices renders that process completely, completely null and void. We know that two phase via OTP can be intercepted. Second factor tokens for those that don't know. We know that some swaps take place from, from from every single telco that we actually deal and transact with is that that's still a problem. Even though that there's a process in place, we know that you can go by a 20 round already recut sub quad at a tax rank and anywhere in South Africa. So that process is kind of failing. The reason why it was initially initiated. And now if you think about that factor of authentication and how often inside your daily life that is actually utilized, it's a very common thing, right? Second factor token that sent your phone to verify that you are who you say you are. But suddenly, if that method is actually so easily compromised, how can organizations then validate specific actions taken or requests to the organization? So that's the business problem, right? Is how do you get closer to your customer from that verification perspective? Verification of my customer is requesting me to do something. The customer is no longer going into a store to do activities. They're sitting on their mobile phones. We're seeing this not only in South Africa, but if you take the context of Africa as a whole branches, both in telco and financial sectors are closing down. People don't want to go into branches. People are becoming more mobile. So now you're sitting with that problem. I mean, that's where the industry is transitioning to you can you can try and bulk against it as much as you want. It is happening and it will happen. It's what the consumer needs and what the consumer requires. Now you have this problem, right? And typically as security professionals, we're typically dragged along as a afterthought. You know, business goes and they, a lot of our customers, business goes and says, right, this is the next big thing. We need to do this. This is the only way that we stay relevant as an organization. Then they, as an afterthought say, okay, security officers and security teams, please can you make sure that transaction is actually, you know, that process is actually secure and validated. And that's where the problem comes into is if you don't have the ability from a use case perspective to offer those types of user vilification to the deep ingrained level that I identify does, then you're losing touch with your customer base. And also from a compliance perspective, you're opening up yourself as an organization to a lot of theoretical open breaches and open areas of risk. Now, the other thing that becomes also vitally important and Mark also touched on this, a point in time at this, let's say at inception at onboarding, where a identity is onboarded into a specific organization to consume their services, that does not secure that specific identity for the rest of the lives. So an ongoing process of continuous vilification and validation is actually needed to ensure that that consumer of your technology remains secure. Then lastly, to and again, business will tell you this is the more important part is that consumer experience. Business and consumers want that to be seamless. They don't want to notice that you're putting them through more hoops and more measures to secure them. They want seamless integration and just in time access as and when they need it on their own terms and demands. Now, again, as security professionals, we're going and saying cars, cars, cars, but we need we need checks and balances. We need to validate and make sure that we keep this transaction or transaction or activity secured. But business needs to move at a more agile pace. Now, if you take all of those problem sets and you connect it towards what I identify offers, they are one of the most unique companies in the localized space as well as international space and will possibly touch on that topic as well a bit later as to why that geographic location is also vitally important to this. But they're one of the most dynamic companies when it comes to ensuring that that customer engagement process is actually not affected. The customer doesn't notice that they are actually in the process of where their interaction with the organization is more secure and that less risk is actually applied to them. Yeah, it's interesting what you say then and Marco, maybe I could get your views on this. I mean, what organizations I guess don't want to do is introduce so much friction into the process that it starts to annoy the customer who who starts to see this as a a grudge or something they have to go through but don't really want to because it takes a lot of their time. What are some of the strategies you guys employ to reduce that friction in the identification process? Yeah, so one of the things is we've got a saying internally, we always say like the company is our customer but the end user is our real customer because we are defending their identity and we are ultimately putting the technology in their hands through proxy. So some of the strategies that we have implemented is we meet the customer where they are at so our technology is on desktop browsers, it's mobile devices, it's device agnostic, it's we've got WhatsApp channel integrations even and it's mobile browser so wherever you need the technology it can be deployed there. The other thing is the technology is deployed as Lego pieces to be non-disruptive for integration so it plugs into existing mobile apps so a customer or end user doesn't have to download another mobile app to go and verify themselves. It's inside of their banking or telco experience and in their day-to-day use cases and flows that they operate with. Our footprint is also very small just in terms of size so that's something that people don't always think about but people inside Africa uninstall mobile apps before they sometimes get onto public transport before fear of being held ransom to do a e-wallet transfer while I'm on a taxi as an example. So now you've got people uninstalling software, they get to work, they reinstall the mobile app, they uninstall it back and forth so and they've got limited cash flow to and limit to buy data and to install those apps so we take all of those things into account and it obviously comes with the empathy of being a sort of African-born company you know people in Europe might not have that local empathy so those are the type of things network we're very sensitive to network as well and then if you think about the liveness process in itself other technologies will ask customers with on-screen prompts to essentially wink or blink or move and make it an interactive process where we simply ask a person to put their face in an oval and we do the race. Super fast, super sleek because we think about things like can people actually read all the text? Do they understand the English that we're printing out there so so we'll also have language packs and I mean I can go on the flexibility but a lot of research is going in there and we I mean we even go so far that we do thousands of local tests where we ask people to come and test our technology and give us a real time feedback and then we do over the shoulder recordings to see how customers interact with new updates. Now I imagine that financial services is a key industry customer of yours but I imagine there's some other use cases in other industries that perhaps we don't think of for top of our heads when we think identity what are some of the other key industries where you've deployed your biometric solutions and what is it being used for? Yeah so one thing that normally takes people by surprise is we've got a deployment with a prominent mine in the DRC and the challenge that they had was they've got employees and they provide staff benefits to those employees particularly so for instance a medical clinic that's on site at the mine but what people do is they just swap out their employee cards, their access cards and then everyone rocks up at the medical facility and therefore the medical facilities gets abused so our technology has been deployed there in the DRC with a very very large user base and what they do is when you become a new employee there HR enrolls you through a biometric process and then essentially when you go to the clinic you have to scan your face again or at the school or some other and that allows that mine to ensure that their employees are put first and there's no fraud to accessing those services or that it gets abused. Okay so how do you how does identify integrate with the existing IT systems of its clients because they must be quite a quite a imagining there's quite a lot of integration work it takes place just maybe unpacked that in some detail. Yes so the vision from day one when we designed this was developers should be able to just pick up the technology integrated copy and paste code and just just get it up and running so long so short we've got mobile SDKs and web SDKs and customers plug this into their mobile apps but we from a functionality perspective it's it's literally it can be integrated in less than 20 minutes we've proven this with some of our clients and then a lot of people would expect us to have a large suite of API's but the way that we designed the solution is we only have two API's so you integrate with two API's the one is actually voluntary if you want to search one API you plug in the SDK within 20 minutes and then we also built a low code and no code solution to meet again like the SME market maybe you don't have that engineering capacity or you don't have a mobile presence and you but you've got a large web presence so we've both a no code low code solution there we're essentially we host our whole solution on the internet and you just you can distribute links through WhatsApp or through email or SMS which ever platform you want to use and a customer simply clicks on that link on their mobile phone or on their desktop or laptop and the web browser opens up does the journey and essentially that customer is authenticated okay okay so Christian let me bring you back in here if you don't mind maybe take us through where cyber one comes in in terms of the role that cybersecurity can play in protecting people's identities and mitigating the problems we've been chatting about today okay so I think let me start then by also contextualizing something I mentioned earlier around this geopolitical scenario that we have Africa right we're in Africa Africa is a unique beast on its own if you if you take into context IT cybersecurity over the last 10 years a lot of the technologies and solutions typically are born in in first world contexts and in first world problems it's in use cases and then it obviously it filters down into you know southern Africa and the rest of Africa and then we have to kind of modify those use cases to work for us in our context and this this is normalized in the industry quite often now we've seen that in the data also happened with largeness detection and identity verification for that for that matter and what we noticed was for those technologies born in and to say plainly born in European and or United States and U.S. markets even even the one in the eastern markets those technologies are built around facial detection and parameter detection not based on our cultural definition that we have in Africa this is common knowledge I mean even large companies like Apple have come out publicly and said that their darker complexion detection does not work as well okay it's because their technology was not built around actually that geographic domination now that's the thing and I think Marco you can also touch on this a bit later is that one of the massive values where I identify their technology sets and their detection algorithms are actually built on our people it's built on Africans it's built it's based in South Africa and it's hosted and supported from here so it's something that we can be really proud of but then at the same time from a use case perspective it excels it beats our competition in terms of the rate at success in terms of that verification it's amazingly high now what we what we can then you know take that take that conversation a bit offline and then think about mitigating that type of identity theft and identity theft happening the only way that you can do it is to have a very high percentile of verification and continuous verification that's the only way anything from a fraud perspective or from a risk perspective or from a theft perspective I mean the the use cases that Marco mentioned now where users are entering into you know public transport sections and common spaces and public spaces in South Africa with a common fear of listen I need to uninstall apps to just ensure that my if my phone gets stolen a simple pin lock will not allow that person to steal my money because now I've uninstall the app and I think that thought process and that consideration a lot of our customers are finding value in that someone has thought about it someone has thought about how does that use case or that citizen or that consumer engagement looks like not just stopping the responsibility or stopping the back at the perimeter or at the app but thinking about how does the actual usages look like inside our context I think that's the only way our customers can really find a solution to address their consumer risk and that that theft and that that breaches that take place in there the fraud that takes place okay I think you mentioned you wanted to expand on that but I mean you mentioned the case of the DRC mining operation that where you where you have a client I mean there must have been some specific challenges you faced on the ground deploying the technology there what was what was some of those challenges and localization issues that you had to overcome well actually you would think so but so we didn't face a lot of challenges we didn't okay okay now again with the with the simplicity of the integration so the mine basically already had a mobile app that they provide their employees to check your pension fund contributions in your salaries and those type of things on and so we deployed it into that app and HR was already using that app so very easy integration and then we've got localization capabilities in our technology so we could meet them at the point of their language preference that they have so all the on-screen prompts or everything in the app can actually adjust to your you don't even have to configure it we automatically adjust to what your language is on your application that you're running or your web solution so integration was was actually a reason we launched the project very quickly but I would like to touch on what Christian said again what comes back to me is that that localized empathy that because we're born and bred in in South Africa so you know we for instance had to solve capturing a green book and a green book is a paper-based document that people carry in their clothes and it gets washed and it's got a piece of film that's pasted over your face so when you've got a camera and the flash goes on the glare comes back and and those type of things so we had to write custom models to actually capture those documents and that's where we learned you know what the real problems were we literally went into the streets and understand what the customers and the consumers are are struggling with and we do that in partnership of our customers stole today because that is the reality like I say you we are defending the identities of the consumer and Christian also touched on the ethnicity challenge that you have in the bias and algorithm so yes it is a challenge internationally algorithms have racial bias in it they've got various forms of biases not only racial biases and the way that we did it is we essentially developed again proprietary technology from day dot because we said listen you we need algorithms that are ethnically aware we are deploying in South Africa and Africa if we want to be enterprise grade and stopping identity fraud in the on this continent then we have to have an algorithm that can match everyone's faces and that is inclusive and that's that's what we achieved guys we're almost out of time but before I let you guys want to maybe look at where we're headed with this technology and Christian maybe I can start with you what are some of the future trends that you have identified in the identity identification market and how can businesses prepare for those trends yeah so I mean Margaret touched on the word AI I think at the onset and and the usage of generative AI models I mean the context is very simple right twenty years ago film production studios had spent millions and millions of dollars to create facial you know patterns and you know you know create images of people and try and show us on the big studio and a big screen how that looks that same thing can be done by a ten year old girl with a cell phone right now the concept around generative AI utilization of deep fakes and again if you think about these three actors we're using common technology today that Marco also mentioned that's been on the dock web available for the past five years you need to think about how this technology is actually being utilized in the next five years we're going to see attack vectors that are being automated a lot more using these AI modeling systems that will theoretically be created from scratch but they will still use a lot of germs to buy out so we're going to see a massive influx I mean we know that processing capability on mobile phones you know at least in the general context of Africa is getting faster and faster and faster you know ten years back it was very normal for someone not to be able to receive a WhatsApp message it was a very common thing today it's very commonly accepted that every single person can accept a WhatsApp message so the phone technology is increasing that means that the attack vectors and the threat actors are actually going to be utilizing a lot more of complex methods to try and you know get into the process get into the organization get into that consumers financial transactions and conduct whatever they want to do maliciously there's going to be a massive uptake in those types of threat vectors in the next five years I can guarantee that. Marco it sounds like your job is going to get a lot more complicated yeah look just to add what Christian is saying what we've also observed is also fishing and fishing we've seen quite a bit of increase in voice scams and our customers reporting that because what you are seeing is the threat actors are running against a wall in a certain process and then they look for the for another process where there's a gap and that gap might be that they can quickly emulate and phone someone and say hey I'm from organization X giving your personal data over the phone or they emulate WhatsApp channels or WhatsApp bots and then people unfortunately get scammed that way so I think we must also keep our eye on that and that is why the way that we are trying to address it is to work actively on ways to easily deploy our technology in all of those channels as well and enable enterprises to do that because as much as as people so I fully agree with Christian AI boom the attacks have increased erratically but what we're also seeing is a lot of people are saying oh we're seeing these other gaps and as I identify we're just making sure that we plug all the holes great well thank you for a fascinating conversation Marco Wagner is chief technology office and co-founder at Identify Marco if anyone wants to learn more about Identify what is your web address as www dot it's double I so it's identify but it's double I in the front and double I at the back dot com dot com identify dot com and we'll include link with that in the show notes Christian Swanupool is security architect it's cyber one solutions cyber one solutions website again Christian is www dot c1 dash case dot com c1 dash s dot com Christian Marco thanks so much for sharing your valuable insights on this important topic with tech central's audience today it is much appreciated thank you thanks thanks Duncan Thanks, Chris, and. - Thank you, sir. 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