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TCS+ | Moving to SAP S/4 HANA Cloud? What you need to know
A 2023 report by International Data Corporation (IDC) found that an astonishing 96% of CIOs in South Africa plan to modernise their ERP applications using cloud services. Yet actual implementation has stalled. To discuss this, and what’s holding South African organisations back from cloud modernisation projects, TechCentral was joined on the TCS+ business technology show by executives from NTT Data (formerly Dimension Data) and SAP: NTT Data Middle East and Africa head of enterprise applications and cloud Brent Flint and SAP Africa head of partner ecosystem (MEA South) Nazia Pillay. Reasons for slow uptake, Flint and Pillay explained, include a perception that the costs involved are exceptionally high and the dire shortage of the right IT skills to handle these types of projects. In this episode of TCS+, Pillay and Flint unpack: • The history of the relationship between SAP and NTT Data and how the two companies work together today; • Why there is a pressing need for companies to modernise their ERP systems and move to cloud-based solutions; • The benefits of and costs associated with moving to SAP S4/HANA Cloud – what the software offers that legacy ERP systems can’t, and the benefits organisations can expect when migrating; • How best to deal with the critical IT skills shortage in South Africa, especially around these types of business application modernisation projects; • The risks associated with business application modernisation and how NTT Data and SAP help their clients address those risks upfront and during project implementation; • The role SAP S/4 HANA Cloud can play in modernising enterprise IT infrastructure and help organisations stay competitive; • The best practices companies should be aware of in achieving a successful migration to S4/HANA Cloud; and • What’s coming next from S4/HANA Cloud that companies should get excited about. If you’re in any way involved in enterprise IT, you don’t want to miss this discussion.
- Duration:
- 38m
- Broadcast on:
- 04 Jul 2024
- Audio Format:
- aac
(upbeat music) I'm Duncan McLeod and this is Tech St. Frills TCS plus the Business Technology Show, which is brought to you today by NTT Data and SAP. And it's to NTT Data and SAP Executors I am chatting next. And the discussion today is going to revolve around a very important issue for many South African organizations. And that's the cloud modernization of the ERP systems. And to do that, I'm joined by NTT Data's Brent Flint. Brent is head of enterprise applications and cloud at NTT Data Middle East and Africa. And Nazia Pillay, who is head of partner ecosystems Middle East Africa South at SAP. Welcome to both of you. Thanks for making the time. - Great to be here. - Good to be here. - Right, so we're going to be talking today about risk communication strategies for migrating to SAP S/4HANA Cloud and what this entails for South African organizations. A recent analyst brief on this topic from IDC International Data Corporation says cloud modernization of ERP applications is forced gaining traction in South Africa and across the Middle East and Africa region. And according to the IDC syndicated cloud research conducted in January of 2023, 96% of CIOs in South Africa indicated plans to modernize their ERP applications using cloud services, and that's an incredibly high number. However, adoption in South Africa particularly has been somewhat slow according to the IDC report. And this is due to the perceived costs involved and a dire shortage of the right IT skills among other factors. Brent, let me start with you. Let's talk a little bit about, as a starting point, about the relationship between NTT Data and SAP. How far does it go back? Duncan, I may be out by a couple of years, but I just came off a call with the German team in SAP, the NTT Data team. And there's 32 years. Well-- So I think in South Africa, we're probably around 20 odd years. OK, OK. And I was here to talk a bit about that relationship and how it works. So of course, NTT Data has walked the journey with us as one of our cloud ERP partners. They don't only specialize in the cloud ERP, but predominantly, that's what they're known for. Taking our biggest customers and sometimes even our smaller customers through a safe journey into our cloud portfolio. OK, OK. So, Nazia, let me ask you to paint a picture, as we get started in this conversation. Why is there a pressing need for companies to modernize their ERP systems and to move to cloud-based solutions? What's driving this pressure? So at the end of everything that SAP does, and I'm sure NTT Data is the customer need. And the fact that the markets in which they are operating in require new things from them, business transformation is key. And business transformation doesn't end at just the people. It then translates into the processes and the tools which they use. So effectively, from a cloud ERP perspective, we are providing them with data and information at the same time in which they can act on that information. So that is critical in terms of what the workforce would-- how the changes the workforce is every day, activities, making customers able to focus on what really matters, which is increasing revenue, looking at how do I improve the customer satisfaction, and how do I engage better with my employee base? OK. So it's about real-time business, Brent, if I'm understanding Rosie correctly. And legacy ERP, I'm guessing, is also good at that. Quite right. I think just to add to what Nuzzier commented on, I think that when you look at the move migration from on-prem to cloud, it's often driven by some of the new business requirements. So clients want to get into new markets and want to improve CX or the employee experience, even, or optimize processes, and operate more efficiently. Those are like pool factors, where they take businesses to discussing the business case for cloud. But I think we'd be remiss not talking about some of the push factors. And the push factors are the legacy ERP that you spoke to. But also, the issues around hosting on-prem. We have an environment which Touchwood has been very sort of stable from an electricity supply recently. But all of those things have an impact on your homegrown IT basement. And if you're managing your own IT infrastructure, that becomes tedious after a while. It ties up your skills in operational sort of things, your businesses, you get to things that are end of life of hardware, you get to all sorts of challenges. So those push factors should also be considered in terms of there's pool stuff that is business enabling. But I think people also want to move away from mundane, non-differentiating tasks in managing the ERP environment. Yeah, and that's basically the main benefit of cloud. That customers can focus on what makes them competitive and what brings value to the end customer, while they leave the stuff to SAP, and to our partnerships to allow for scalability and security and so on. So they focus on what matters to the business. We focus on keeping the lights on. Obviously, I mean, we've spoken about skills, and I think skills is going to be a topic that we cover a lot through this conversation this morning. But to what extent do you think the skills shortage inside that figure is actually driving this migration to cloud? I think if you look at it, the shortage of skills is particularly related to the old way, or to the fact that we need a new kind-- Yeah. So we need a new kind of consultant. And it's not only just the solution consultants. We also need what wasn't required in an on-prem world, which is architecture, cloud architects. And they need to understand this very, very complex environment of not only applications, but also the underlying infrastructures and communicating across different networks and so on. On top of that, you then need the project management skills that understand, what am I looking for in a project that is fundamentally different now that I'm in a cloud world? And so it's these layers of different kinds of skill sets or transitions of skill sets that become an issue in the market. All right, let's talk a little bit about SAP S/4HANA Cloud. As a starting point, what is it exactly? S/4HANA is our cloud ERP offering that we have to our customer base. Underlying it is the fact that we have ease of use through our fury screens, as well as the embedded analytics, making that real-time data available to our customers. OK, and is it a public cloud offering? Or is it a combination of public and private-- So we have both in S/4HANA Cloud either private edition or public. And we see that a lot of our install-based customers who have complex, currently, ECC systems, they tend to go to private cloud. So that they can keep some of the customization and so on. But for net new markets, we focus predominantly with our public cloud offering. And ECC is a non-cloud on-premises legacy solution. ECC was our former ERP solution. And that basically comes to end-of-mainstream maintenance in 2025 or 2027, depending on your enhancing pack. And so S/4HANA is the next generation of our ERP. Right. OK, so there's a deadline approaching for corporates around the world and inside Africa that need to move off these platforms. What does this end of support actually mean for them? End-of-mainstream maintenance means a customer can still opt to have customer-specific maintenance. But that comes at an additional cost. But it's not really the cost that customers should be focused on. It's the fact of what they lose by not moving into S/4HANA, which is around the innovation. It's around the fact that you now have a different data architecture underlying your S/4 system, which allows you to do all the new things, write a like machine learning robotics, and now the buzzword, which is artificial intelligence. OK, and that's baked into this new software. Yes. OK, OK, and I imagine that moving off the legacy software as well also has cost implications. And they're cost implications associated with maintaining these legacy systems. And I imagine moving to a cloud environment, which is supported by your partners like NTT data, has cost implications and potentially lower cost associated with it as well. Right, so the total cost of operation, when you look at the licenses and the infrastructure, the business case will stack up over time. Because with our RISE offering, which is what we've brought, it's a comprehensive offering. It's not a product in itself. It's basically our S/4HANA with managed services and other services in the cloud. And effectively, what we can do is we can show to our customer base that moving to that subscription model, considering what they're currently paying for the maintenance to us and what they may be paying for the infrastructure in which they're running it, as well as the additional support that they need for the systems, that business case stacks up. Having said that, there is a cost related to migration. And unfortunately, the migration is not a migration of itself, a technical migration. It's a business transformation. And so that means that a lot of the things that people had left untouched, like redundant custom code, data issues, which they just didn't think about, remains in the system, and now becomes the point in time where they want to address everything at one goal. So depending on how big you want to make the project, creates this anxiety in the customer base that there's a big project ahead of them, and there's cost related to it. But you can do this in phases. And that's why we have our SIs and our partners to support our customers in understanding how to break that down and how to do it in a safe way. And I guess entity data plays a big role in helping customers go through those processes. Maybe explain to us a little bit how you get involved in helping your clients in this migration process and entities role in that. Thanks, Daniel. Smiling, as Nazia mentioned a few of those things, because most of the engagements-- building out the business case is one part of the migration plan, the execution, and then the ongoing measurement against that business case is where we see a lot of gaps in the market. But I think every client that we engage with, we've developed a few packages that help us map out that business plan and mitigate any risk in the journey and introduce automation to make it more efficient. So taking a proven methodology, applying some automation to some skill sets that are dedicated to migrations, we significantly de-risk the migration. I think one thing that we should state is that moving to cloud doesn't solve your problems. It may enable your business to be more efficient going forward. But if you're taking bad data, inefficient process, uneducated people into cloud, you're just replicating your challenges. So that whole business transformation and modernization, which includes changing business process and re-skilling users, is crucial to the success of a cloud migration plan. And I think the challenges we see typically data is the first one. Skill set, second one. Security, third. And fourth would just be general compliance. Segregation of duties, those kind of things. Often these things are administrative in nature and bad habits of crypto into the old on-prem environment. And then the time to clean up the environment is when you move to cloud. Now, the cleanup cost should not be put into the business case for migration because you'd have to do that anyway. So these are some of the things we see. But I think, just to say back to a point you made earlier, I think the skill set issue is a crucial one for South Africa. We are now part of a global skills. We call it war and talent. And a lot of highly skilled people in South Africa are working remotely for offshore organizations. So while we're trying to re-skill for the new world, there's a dwindling pool that's been exploited, as I say, exploited. We are a low-cost geography. We speak English. We are on a European timeline. So we're really well positioned to export those types of skills. Do you think these are big projects compounded by the skills issue? And the RDC reports states that South Africa has fallen behind other markets, even in the region, in modernizing and moving to cloud. How do we overcome these issues? What's the answer? Well, this year on skills. Yeah, I think there are two things. One is most CIOs are experiencing delays in accelerating their client, their cloud journey, largely because of skills. Now, to partner and select the right execution player is really crucial there. And to use, we were joking about it, but to use automation, to use proven methodology, to use AI to do proper discoveries in planning is one way of being more efficient around your skillset. One of our intentions is to help our clients on their journey, but also to take the operational the day-to-day management of mundane, non-differentiating tasks off the client. So the client can then use his skills who understand the business that they're in, more appropriately. So I think that's one option Duncan. The other is the investments we've made. Nuzzi was talking about sort of graduate acceleration programs at the intro. We've done a lot of work around our Saturday school creating skills, then taking those graduates through into university once they've graduated our Saturday school, and then we employ many of them in our business going forward. So I think we certainly working hard at creating a skills base. If I can, just for a moment, we've also identified that South Africa is one of our global SAP centers of excellence. So the points I mentioned earlier, English speaking, we're awake during the European day. We actually have quite a hard competence in skillset in South Africa. We're a very attractive labour rate as well. So we've created two centers of excellence for SAP, one in Johannesburg and one in the Eastern Cape. And we are globally investing in both of those two areas. - And that's to provide services, not just to South Africa. - Absolutely. - Yeah, yeah. - And Brent is spot on. The migration while it might seem a big project, we have many more tools in the European journey now than we had 10 years ago, right? So around automation, around methodology, making sure that we make repeatable project plans, ways to execute and so on. This is something that not only do we expect from our partners, but SAP itself has pushed out methodology and accelerators and tools to support our partners and our customers in this process to identify custom code, to be able to accelerate, understanding where the change is going to be, methodologies and how to run the project, templates and all kinds of accelerators that are made available. So we can build it into how we do it because repeat activity creates consistent outcomes. And that's what we need to be able to move the client base into Eswahana rise. - Okay, so these tools help with risk mitigation in these large complex projects. Best terms, Makira, Glass Wing, Control Panel, GRC, what are those and these part of these risk mitigation strategies? - Yeah, so let me provide a little bit of clarity there and try not to sound like a sales pitch, but what we've done is we've taken, to the point Nazi was making, we've taken best practice process, we've taken a platform and we've taken a skill set and we've bundled that into what we call an outcomes based service. And Makira is an ability to manage document flow through your organization. So if you think about a simple example would be a sales person gets an order from a client and attached to it is a purchase order. They have to then load into an ERP system, the purchase order with their sales code, with the right product code, those kinds of things. So document management in an organization becomes complex and it creates disaster because if a nice light on any sales person but attention to details, not up on their list, you invariably get inaccurate data. So Makira helps us manage that process, it automates it, it puts workflows in, it puts checks and balances in and it also self-populates some of that data. So using AI, it gets smarter and smarter over time, it learns things like a VAT number and populates it into the document. And then I'll carve that off to it into a repository for reference going forward. So these are things that just take away some of the noise and make your migration more efficient. I wanna stress though that those, these are tools that should be used regardless of whether you are in or out of cloud. It's not dependent on a migration. - Sure, sure. Okay, class wing and control panel GOC just briefly what it was. So Duncan, one of the trends I mentioned earlier was that we see compliance and GOC challenges in every client. I've just spent some time with a large financial services organization. They've had the annual audit and their findings. And segregation of duty is one of those. So what we mean by that is you don't allow an accounts receivable person to have access to account payable data because the likelihood or the potential for fraud is then heightened. And in large financial environments, they segregate those duties. They audit them once a year and guaranteed every time there's a finding. Now under GOC portal, we have a program that says Get Clean which goes and audits and finds all of these role and roles that haven't been revoked or been assigned incorrectly. And then it also puts in a managed service over the top of that with workflow authorization, reporting and that sort of thing. So to prevent you getting into that sort of sick state, so to speak, going forward. So future proofs from a violation of your segregation of duties. But in a nutshell, they're all people process platform highly automated with some cognitive sort of intelligence built into populate and make life more efficient. - You don't have to reinvent the wheel and then you do these projects. What is the impact of deploying SAP S/4HANA Cloud on organizational competitiveness? What does it mean for companies that pre-running the legacy ERP systems compared to what they're assuming they deploy the software successfully? What does it actually mean for their competitiveness and their ability to grow market share, et cetera? - So I mentioned that with the benefit of cloud is that our customers can now focus on creating business value, right? The competitive edge that you get is the fact that you leave the technology part, which is the infrastructure, the managed service, the bi-annual upgrades of your ERP system, you leave that to your provider, your service provider, which is now SAP. And you focus on the value-adding part. So basically you can use your workforce and focus them on where is the value that is required for them to stay competitive. And it really is about focusing your effort where it matters. - Are you having conversations with clients in South Africa about AI? I mean, it's the buzzword of 2024. It's been the buzzword for a couple of years now. And one of the things that this sort of modernization allows us to deploy these latest technologies in the enterprise, are you seeing pressure from CIOs in South Africa who is saying, we absolutely have to do this. We have to modernize our systems because we need to get into this, onto this AI bandwagon. - So actually, I see it from the other side. I see it from the partner side. And yes, we are scaling up our partners to be able to answer that question because most of them are facing those questions at their end customers. And effectively, it is important for them to be able to discuss and define these use cases because AI is consumed use case by use case. So many people see it as, where can we start? And the advisory that comes from our partners helps them to determine where's the most logical place to start. And from my perspective, the other more interesting part of it is what I'm looking at, what is our partners, what our partners are doing for the AI, to be able to make migrations easier, to create new products or new offerings to our customer base. I see a lot of work around that from our partner base to be, to gearing up in terms of not just exploring use cases with the customers, but also providing them solutions as we just discussed, that are ready for them to consume. - Well, I should direct the question then to Brent. What pressure are you seeing from your clients to-- - Huge, huge. - There's a, it's called it a hype cycle at the moment where every client is looking to unlock business value. We've developed a few assessments to really sort of, let me call them simple engagements to identify areas for deployment. And we've also found that there are a few use cases where we can apply that use case in not only industry, but different client environments as well. So again, our view on it is, how do we standardize as much as possible? How do we proceduralize and industrialize the solutions and then deploy it across clients and across industry verticals? But Duncan in short, a huge amount of interest. And another area where I think there's a skills death, we just don't have the people to service the demand in the market and we need to be quite selective about which use cases are gonna deliver maximum value to our clients and generate quick returns for our market. - Sounds like this skill shortage is a real, real problem. Let's talk about practical experience now. Nazia, maybe just in terms of best practices that organizations should know about when they embark on one of these projects, Cloud Modernization ERP projects, what should they know if they want to achieve a successful migration to S/4HANA Cloud? Which companies know in this regard? - So S/AP has done a lot of work in this area and we have what we call the Cloud Migration and Modernization Program, which we make available both to our partners and our customers, where we build in tools, we provide methodology, tools and accelerators to assist them in that journey. And I think it's very important for our customers and partners to look at the best practice, but not to ignore the fact that many of our SIs come with their best practices as well, where they have run projects and found based on industry or based on a certain specific focus within a client base that they have added additional best practice onto what SAP has already provided. - Brings is a very different between industries. Do you have to have a completely different tool set each time you go into a different sector? - It depends on what modules you are deploying. So a simple example is if you look at the basis kind of finance and operations kind of modules, there's not a huge amount of differentiation there. But there are certain industry kind of modules and SAP have actually assembled themselves and we have mirrored that at NT data with an industry vertical approach. So we look at Cloud for automotive or Cloud for manufacturing as an example and you would have certain modules like your warehouse management or some of your IoT devices that you need to consider a different approach to. I think just the point I just want to go back on and just make again around that journey and what things you need to make sure you're ticking off on that project plan. And now this is quite correct. If you look at what SAP is provided as best practice templates and frameworks, we've adopted many of those but we've also taken a global view out of an entity data spent $3.6 billion on a two year rolling window on R&D and we both say a data conversion factory in India. So we've been able to accelerate migration times from sort of a 12 week period down to six weeks, almost 50% reduction by driving automation in a data conversion factory, doing all the code correction centrally and leveraging on those learning. So I think it's really important that we sort of acknowledge SAP as a best practice threshold or benchmark but in each geography, we enhance some of those services with local knowledge and content. Okay. And it's not only the technical part of methodology and tool sets. There are other things that make a project successful. And these things, so most of our customers are facing not only the change to business process that's introduced by going to Esfohana, but they also have to, it's a change of the business model when they go into cloud. So they have these two major change events that are facing them at the same time. So change management becomes critically important and it's not only the traditional change management, such as stakeholder management, user awareness, user training, it's also around software change management itself. In a cloud world, I mentioned that you have every six months and you release coming on board, whether you are in the project or really live, you need a team that's on top of all the changes, understanding what impacts they have, but not only that, what are the new functionalities that have been introduced so that I can take advantage. So change management is critical in these projects. - Would you say that's the number one thing to determining success? - I would say that it is actually one of the top three. - So Brent, would you say that the change management is the single biggest determinant or whether it is a project like this is successful or not? And what are some of the other factors that determine success? - I'd agree with Nazi. I think it's absolutely crucial. What I wanted to just add to that was that executive support is absolutely key. And I'll give you an example, again, practically. I've just been to a large steel manufacturer on a cloud migration engagement. And the first thing the CEO wants off the project plan is change management. Yeah, I will tell my people that the changes are happening. And it's a little bit, you know, it's a bit like parenting, you know, it's much easier if people see the light rather than feel the heat. And we don't talk about change management now as a KitKat or new keyboard. And welcome to the new system. It's actually about the change to the business process. And that's crucial to have exact support on it. And another client with a strong executive buy-in, CEO pulled the project, said, everything's on hold until the production executive acknowledges that we are going to change the process. And that's, so I think executive buy-in to a cloud transformation program is crucial. Change management is a huge, huge part of that. But if the execs don't buy-in and understand what it means to their businesses, they're doing their organization at a service. Is it a specific executive that should be responsible for this? Should it be the CEO, or should it be some other role in the organization? I think it's got to start with the board approval. Because, you know, the business processes touch on finance, they touch on production, distribution, sales, warehousing. So you really actually need a broad exec buy-in. And often, you know, the poor CIO is the program sponsor. I would suggest that you swing that. You either have a CEO as the sponsor, or a steering committee who drive the program. And it shouldn't, I guess, be seen as purely as an IT project. In fact, it's not. It's not an IT project. It's not an IT project. And that actually brings me to the other two points around what makes it what is important. First of all, customers must be deliberate in their selection of partner. They must find a partner that meets their ethos and culture, and that has the competencies and the investment in their business to be able to take them across the line. I think that that is one of the key things that I've seen which makes a successful project. And that goes to the fact that you not only have executive buy-in from the customer side, but you also have executive buy-in from the partner, where we have executives speaking to each other, ensuring that at the top level, they are aligned, that they are committed to the journey, and that they're there to handle any deviations from the original plan quickly and timelessly for their teams. The other part is roles and responsibilities need to be clarified. Right up front, it's important in order to do a proper scope of work and estimation, you need to understand what is SAP doing, what is the customer doing, and what is the partner doing. And having a clear, defined roles and responsibilities helps you to work in a team environment. It's not only now about the partner and the customer anymore. SAP is fundamentally providing the service of the cloud ERP system. So we need to also be playing our role and working and collaborating with our partners and customers. Brent, I don't know if you can mention specific clients, but maybe you can just talk about the industries there. But can you maybe provide one or two examples of successful migrations here in South Africa, and what the companies have been able to achieve as a result of moving onto these more modernized systems? Don, I'm not going to mention names just to keep it barefoot, but I think I'll talk to industries. And one of the first thing I'd say is with proper planning, you plan for success. And the time spent on doing due diligence is well worth it, those roles and responsibilities, clarity of the solution, all of those things are important. I'd encourage organisations to spend time planning and getting a detailed execution plan. But to think of a few success stories, we've taken a number of clients in different areas-- financial services, manufacturing, automotive. A recent one was in a production environment, where downtime is critical. You cannot be offline in a production environment. And not that you can be offline in banking for that matter. You can't be offline at all. But really just making sure that we are mitigating risk. And the big thing there is to get that right is in production was data, making sure that all the pre-migration tasks are being executed properly, and that there are no surprises when you get to the Go meeting, and you've made the decision to migrate. Because coming back is very, very difficult. And so we've had huge success in production environments, banking environments. We took one of the largest retail banks of an on-prem environment into a cloud, into a hard to scale environment with SAP. So I would suggest that there is a low risk associated with migration to cloud if the proper planning has been driven. That's key. Yeah, and the absolute minimum is to spend time on the business case, and to spend time on the due diligence and discovery. And no client really wants to spend a lot of time all money investigating what they think they already know. The issues that come out of the woodwork, if you don't do a proper due diligence, are huge. And they have significant delays and put significant risk on the program. So the big thing is to get your planning right. So I imagine that you must have to have some uncomfortable conversations with your clients sometimes, companies that want to pull the trigger on a project when they're not ready. They haven't re-engineered their processes and the way they need to. They haven't cleaned up their data, et cetera, et cetera. How do you manage conversations like that? I think authenticity and credibility are really key and important. The executive interlock is, yeah, I feel that in most cases I can have a very transparent conversation with my client. I think one of the things that is really important, though, is that we all aligned in the engagements. Because if we, again, to use the parenting analogy, if there's a difference of opinion between an OEM and a partner, and that manifests in the client engagement very, very unhealthy place to be. So we need to make sure that we are as a tri-party or fully aligned. I think the one thing that does concern me around risk is, up for C, a mad rush to cloud at some point. Now, let me give you some idea. We think that probably 30% of the dimension data in TT data client base have migrated to S4, Hannah. The deadline is looming. The planning takes time. So people might end up rushing this and it could be those problems. And I think what we've seen, and I think certainly is SAP, assisting us with accelerators to get there, both in terms of methodologies, but also in terms of funding. You also see in hardware scalers putting accelerating funding programs together to migrate to cloud. So I think there's an awareness in the industry that we've got to get on with it. And we're going to have a limited skills base to execute on the client requirement. It's also even over busy few years ahead, Brent. Exciting years. Exciting years, yeah. Speaking of exciting, I wanted to direct a last question to you. So what can we expect from SAP S4, Hannah, Cloud? What's coming down the line in the next couple of years that companies need excited about? So it is our artificial intelligence. We have-- with SAP, we have always had a format of machine learning or simulation and prediction. That's part of most people that have worked with SAP, ERP, know that we have built that into our software. But with artificial intelligence, we're taking it to the next level. That means it's the user interface that the users are dealing with will now become the AI. And it's not going to be for everything. It's going to be for those heavy transactional scenarios where you can automate it to create that efficiency and to create that benefit to the end customer. So that is a space that's very exciting at the moment. So do you see that primarily driving organizational productivity? Yes, productivity and innovation as well, right? OK. Well, thank you guys. It's been a fascinating conversation. Thanks for sharing these insights with Tech Central's audience today. Brent Flint is head of enterprise applications and cloud at NTT data, Middle East in Africa, and Nasea Pillay is head of partner ecosystems, Middle East Africa South at SAP. Thank you so much for your time. - Thanks for hosting us, Duncan. - Thanks. - Thank you.