Join me as I sit down with my sweet friend, Shauna Portner. She is the epitome of what it looks like to ask healthy, relevant questions that allow us to go deeper with our tribe.
Tribe, A Jesus Revival
S4 E7: Go Deep, not Wide.
Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Try podcast. I'm your host Britt Vega and I am so excited that you're here. Today is going to be really fun because I have my friend Shawna here and before we get too far ahead of ourselves, I want to give you guys just a little bit of context. Shawna is a friend that I met a couple of years ago through our church. She is a mom and a wife. We serve together every Sunday morning at our church. We are in the same women's Bible study group and honestly we're just really on this journey of being apprentices of Jesus together and it's one of my favorite ways to do life with my tribe. Vocationally, Shawna is a social worker. She's really just out there changing the world by loving others in a really special way. So without further ado, Shawna, welcome to the show. I am so excited that you're here encouraging our listeners today. Thanks Britt. I'm excited to be here. All right. So today we're talking about what I believe sets Shawna apart as a friend. It's the idea of leaning in and asking questions and honestly, it's one of the traits that I really admire about her because she is so authentic in her curiosity and that's something that really means a lot to me. When we talk about curiosity, it's a trait that serves us well in every area of our lives but especially in our faith journey. Shawna wants us to be curious and to dig into scripture for our answers. It's how we discover creation and all of the good things that God has made, like pretty much anything else in life. There are certainly negative parts of curiosity and scripture and I think one of the most obvious is Eve when she was curious in the garden but then we see the amazing acts of curiosity like Moses with the burning bush and Jesus himself was curious about others. I truly, truly believe that we cannot desire to be like Jesus without being curious about who he is and the way that he lived his life. In fact, it's that curiosity that oftentimes sparks our interest in scripture and just tuning our hearts and our minds to be more like Jesus in our everyday lives. So okay, let's get into this Shawna. I know you said that this curious question asking desire to go deeper with people is just a part of who you are and it started at a really young age. At what age do you remember first realizing that maybe you were more curious than others? Can I say now? I mean, that's the question. No really, I don't, I was thinking about this ahead of time, like when did I start with this curiosity and I feel like I didn't realize that this was atypical. This was not the norm until probably adolescence maybe, but even more so like later in life, I feel like people are bringing it to my attention. You know, I just went on a girls trip and someone said, oh, this was a fun deep weekend and my friend said, well, you have to just expect it with Shawna. And I thought, oh my goodness, and I didn't even know I was going deep. No, but suddenly it started, I think in adolescence my realization that I was maybe a little bit more curious. I remember having conversations at the dinner table and my sister, who I love dearly, were just very different. And I would ask lots of questions and my sister would get uncomfortable and she would just get up and leave and tell me that I was kind of strange asking all of these questions. So I think it was really as a teenager, right? And then when I started dating Jimmy, I remember us going on dates and me asking all of these questions and he handled them so remarkably well, but didn't ask a whole lot in return at the same time. And I thought, hmm, maybe I'm asking too many questions or being too curious. So and the last thing I'll say about it just too, when I noticed it was, you know, I think after some just life events took place as a child, I definitely had tons of questions. I would be considered more than normal, the why child. And whenever they would give an answer, my parents, especially, I would just dig in because they were a safe space for me to do so. So I the long story long would be probably adolescence when I realized, oh, maybe this is not not the norm to ask so many questions. I love that. That's so good. You were raised in a home a lot like mine where nothing was off limits and your parents were very like loving and gracious and you were able to ask all types of questions, like they cultivated that environment for you, which I believe is what you and I are both trying to do with our own families and our own children. Do like where do you think the curiosity came from? Like we know when you kind of like noticed that you were more curious, but like where does that come from? Do you feel like it was just something that like you were born with or what? Yeah. I think it's a combination of, you know, what you were saying, right, like born with and family of origin. So you know, again, as you're saying, like my family was someone that nothing was off of the table. They were people who they any question was was a question you could bring to them. It was a very honest and open family. I'm so appreciative that I had parents who like you said cultivated that environment. Even if my sister didn't appreciate it a whole ton, you know, like I loved it. So I think part of it was, and honestly, you could see the difference in two of them in the parents, right? My mom at times, I could see she got a little uncomfortable and maybe a little defensive looking back on some of the questions because I was asking some vulnerable questions to be honest, which I try to remind them was a compliment to them because it meant that I felt safe to do that. Yeah. But my dad was so she would be a little, you know, a little like depending on the question, like uncomfortable, rightfully so. And my dad was someone that would hold one another accountable. So he was someone that if he knew that someone was nervous to answer the question, he would be there supporting in a firm, like yet loving way to answer the question and honestly. So I think that was modeled for me by both of my parents. Essentially, my mom was modeling to work through the discomfort and to be vulnerable. And my dad was modeling support and what that looked like and also just answering honestly without really shame, like my story is my story. So I think part of that is family of origin and then honestly, you know, when I was contemplating like just the realization that I am more curious, I think. And even asking Jimmy, you know, I kind of brought him into it and I think it's also temperament, I go back to so they have origin is that personality, right? You're shaped by them, but temperament is that wiring that God created you in his image to be what he wanted you to be and that personality now it has its downfalls and I know I'm sure we'll get to that. But my temperament is I'm people oriented. I if I can be with people or be my myself, I'm going to be with people. I just feel like there's so much to learn from one another. I also end the peace oriented person. So I don't love conflict, something I'm working on, but I don't love it. So I think when I think about curiosity, it's my desire to want to build an empathy a lot of the time as well. They go hand-in-hand to me. So when I think about the conflict piece and wanting to be like a peacekeeper, it's because I want to understand. So if I send something in myself, I want to lean into it and know more about it so that I don't feel conflicted or I don't feel frustrated, right? Whatever the heavy emotion is, I kind of want to get past it. And then I think with my temperament, I am someone that is highly open. So I want to hear it all, doesn't mean I agree with it all, but I want to hear it all. And I want people to feel loved and seen as Jesus has called us to. And then, you know, the last couple of things I've noticed, I think that a line with curiosity is my eagerness, I'm someone that's excited and eager to learn and I just, if I could know it all, I would. If only my brain would function properly and remember it all, it'd be even better. But I am eager. And then I have these deep feelings. So, you know, other people can feel deeply, I am with empathy, you know, someone's crying. I am tearing up as well, right? Everyone is feeling the heaviness. I may not relate to their story, but I relate to the heaviness and relate to that feeling or whatever they are, right? Complete different circumstances, but I want to be present with them. And something that I kind of wanted to note here too, is research really does show that highly curious people prefer growth over safety, they prefer complexity over simplicity, autonomy over obedience, sorry, mom and dad, and rules and openness over closure. So I think, so I should have said, sorry, autonomy over obedience and rules and then openness over closure is what I was trying to say. So to me, I'm someone that wasn't, well, this is, like, if I asked a question, the answer and, well, this is just the way the world works. That wasn't enough for me. I was like, that doesn't make sense. I'm sorry. Who decided this, right, like I will talk to them and find out why. So I was definitely a kid who would dig their heels in and it wouldn't take just a simplistic answer. And I would say that curious people, that same research show that they tend to be unconventional thinkers, non-judgmental, and comfortable with uncertainty and flexibility. When I read that, I was like, okay, some of those I can agree with. Some of them, I'm not the most flexible person. But I think practicing curiosity helps me practice that flexibility and flex that muscle. And I know I'm going on about where it comes from, but at a young age, I remember just, I mean, even if it was something as small, it felt big then, but as being bullied as a child, right? I remember, you know, I was, I felt as a child even deeper in my faith and I remember thinking like, Jesus is calling us to love our enemies. So that is, you know, it didn't just happen, right? But I remember thinking, following, essentially following my intuition. And I think, frankly, kids as a social worker, kids are way better at following their intuition than adults are. We tend to shut it off and ignore it when we should be listening to it. So as I was intuitive and felt the anger bubbling up, the resentment, the frustration, kind of the questions of why, and I was never going to find out why, right? So it's not like I always need to know this direct answer, but I remember leaning in with curiosity of, God, show me why is this happening? You know, I felt alone in those moments and it was, you know, it was in fourth and fifth grade. I couldn't imagine being a kid today, but it felt very difficult and very burdensome. And I remember praying for them, right, praying, and I wouldn't call them enemies, but people that were not being kind and trying to figure out how I could love them by embodying like Jesus, right, like kind of being an image bearer of God for them. And it built empathy in me, like that praying that, and then, you know, I didn't make up stories about them, but I remember thinking like, people don't do this if they're secure. People don't do this if they love themselves. People don't do this if they really are, they maybe were Christians, right, but they maybe weren't like being shown at home, how to model the love of Jesus. And so I think it created that, again, that empathic curiosity for me of feeling kind of sad along the side of them, like, wow, you do not feel loved enough to, right? And you're, you don't love yourself enough. You don't see that you're precious and you're made in the eyes of God or you wouldn't be doing this. Right? They didn't have that security. So I wanted this, I had this genuine desire to understand them and a lack of willingness to accept this easier surface kind of answer. So of what was happening, so I just kind of dug in and would pray about it pretty continuously, like, every day, and get, you know, I think part of it is getting to the why, like, what's the real issue at hand? So with that curiosity, I was like, you know, why God, why, why, why, and he continued to show me in those moments that they really, there was an need was not getting that. Yeah. And I did. I had empathy because I'm thinking, I don't feel like my needs get met right now either, right? I'm not going to hold up, but so I can come along beside you in that sense. And then, you know, last thing I'll say about that, I'm sorry, Britt, but it's- Do be sorry. This is what I know more, but I think about how different those friends were, right? Right. Or, I mean, another example would be just engaging around people. People we don't understand, right? People we don't see eye to eye with, and those kids, right? I know, again, at fourth or fifth grade, but there's probably plenty of other examples I can use where I had to really focus on maintaining this posture of empathy and curiosity with hopes that I could gain a deeper awareness of what they were going through, because I still knew that they had a story and their stories mattered. And that doesn't always mean that we agree or we condone or, you know, that we stand by their actions, but that we have a dialogue in order to understand one another, to find some common ground for connection. And I do think this is applicable, so I am going to share this little piece, but as a child, I know that you know this, but my grandfather was murdered, and I remember asking tons of questions of why. Why did this happen? And I was so young that my brain couldn't grasp that bad things happened in the world. So my whole world was kind of, I was shook to the core, and you know, I remember my mom saying to me, "Your papa, he would forgive them." There were three people involved in the tragedy, I would say, and I remember my mom just saying not to me, speaking that into me, and I thought, "I feel so angry that you took this person from me." So how can I get to a place of forgiveness? And I'm never going to say, "It's okay." You know it's okay, you made a mistake, but if I lean in with curiosity and I understand a little bit about their story, it doesn't mean that I'm saying it's okay. I can see that, you know, bad things happened to that person that also killed my grandpa. And so I would say the perfect example of that was when we would have to go to court, and as I got older, they can appeal their prison sentence, and we would go in front of the federal court house, and they would essentially say, "Can we get an early release?" And it was so humbling to see the person, one of the people, right, who was a part of this act, holding the door open for their children, their grandchildren. It was just a bizarre, brought me to my knees, feeling in a way, and then hearing the person up on the stand talking about their own childhood, again I didn't say, "It's okay, I now get it. It's not directly linked, right, but I can feel the power in their story, and I can find my point is I can find common ground with these people that I may never understand, but they also miss their dad, and they also miss their grandpa, and they don't have access to that person now because of the mistakes they made, right? And so that was really, to me, like this, it was in my 20s, mid-20s, I remember this light bulb moment of one of the most humbling experiences, and healing experiences for me, of honestly this curiosity, this empathy, and then forgiveness kind of coming full circle. It was beautiful, it was beautiful. That's all I got for that. That was so good, that was a lot. That's so good though. I mean, you're talking about learning things as like, how old are you in fourth and fifth grade? Oh my gosh, you're asking us over the time. Eight? Nine? I don't know, we don't do that, we just speculate ourselves. So we're talking about single digits, right, up until maybe 10 years old, that you're learning these things that we talk about on this podcast, and we hear preached right from the platform at church, forgiveness, and empathy, and like what does that look like, and even as adults we're still, a lot of us are still trying to figure that out, and so it's just powerful to hear you talk about it, and just that level of depth that you have, and that curiosity, and like the fact that you feel things to your core, you know, like you're an empath, and I just think that's so powerful. I mean that adds value to friendships, and to marriage, and to parenthood, and all of that. So I love that. Yeah, it's part of it. Poor Jimmy and Nick, you put us in a room and we're either bawling or rebalancing off the walls. Exactly. It's one extreme or the other. Oh my gosh. Okay, so let's just fast forward a few years here, like how would you say that your vocation as a social worker fits into the idea of this asking questions, and not just truly that desire to go deeper? Yeah, yeah, so I, again, to me, when you say curiosity, again, curiosity, the empathy really go hand in hand in my eyes. So I just want to read Galatians chapter 6 verse 2, carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. So I feel like that is my little Bible verse, I guess, for my call as a social worker. I feel like I want to provide a space, a container for people to share, and then also ease the heavy load of the burdens that they're carrying in an empathically curious way. Again, going back to the empathic curiosity, a lot of times I people, people that I work with, like they don't feel seen or heard, and, I mean, again, my background, it's like homelessness, right, is in forensic, so working people coming out of prison who were homeless and mental health, and it's like they feel invisible, and so, you know, I think about too, like Job, you know, through all of the lost, I mean, gosh, I don't even think loss is the right word for the magnitude of it, but, you know, his three friends sat with him for seven days, yes, to mourn. They didn't make a mistake, though, right, like, then they spoke up, and it was not uplifting, it was, what did you do wrong, let's figure this out. And so I feel like I want to model the sitting on the long side, somebody, but not the speaking part, right, and sometimes they just need that, people I work with, I feel like everybody, they just need that space, but they also need you to prompt them. People don't often just talk about themselves, you have to ask questions, and again, you, in a way, I mean, I have the, I guess, the blessing in this relationship as a social worker to be the person asking the questions, and I'm also a safe person, because I am not involved in their circle, right, it's safe, and I am whole to a standard of not talking about those things, right, that's like, those are part of our ethics, but I think one thing I love about being a social worker is I get to try to find the beauty in unexpected dark places, and so, you know, I, again, I go back to this piece of, like, people are hurting, but often they're these invisible hurts, right, like they're this pain that so many people I work with, when I ask them how they're doing, they say, fine, or I'm doing great, and they will turn the question back to me, and I kind of have to pause and stop them and say, no, really, how are you doing, because I'm not going to take fine as an answer, like, you know, a lot going on, and it's just even acknowledging, like, the power of acknowledging, and then leaning again in with curiosity, it, it didn't allow them to open up, and like, their guard comes down, and that may take a lot of sessions, a lot of conversations, but oftentimes, like, the people, again, they feel so unseen, so unheard, and I think, again, back in, and I'm not trying to be annoying with all of my biblical references, but it made me think of Thomas when Jesus comes back, right, and I did write it down, then he said to Thomas, put your finger here, see my hands, reach out your hand, and put it in my side, stop doubting and believe. Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God," then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed, blessed are those who have not seen and yet believed," and that's John Chapter 2027-29, but I will say that I, it, to me, it matches with the caregivers, or not the caregivers, anybody I deal with, right, as a social worker, what they're dealing with, like, you cannot see it oftentimes. Yeah, and you have to dig deep, and you're not going to dig deep by just continuing to ask, "Hi, how are you?" It's going to be continually building trust by asking questions, showing up, providing empathy through your curiosity, that's going to keep them, their walls kind of coming down, and listening to their cues. I feel like that's part of it too. When you're being curious, you've got to read a room. Yep. Right? Can I just go up to someone, when you're curious about something, and asking them questions, and so I find it, I did this fun little activity that I do with some of the folks that I work with, and it was finding your purpose, and as a Christian, as someone that believes, my purpose is to leave people to Jesus, but what does that mean? That's oversimplifying, if I'm being honest. I found that my purpose is to meet people where they are, and show them love and kindness and grace in those moments by just being present. That means showing them that I see you, I hear you. Again, I don't want this to get twisted with I condone, but I see you, I hear you, I understand how you got here, and that can be so freeing for someone to hear. I'm sure we've all heard it in some way, and it's freeing. Of course you feel that way. Of course, you're dealing with that. And then as a social worker, I'm, again, being a naturally drawn, curious person, I get to learn about perspectives, I don't even understand. Yeah. People's stories that I never thought I'd get to hear, or that I didn't even know happened, right? And so, a piece of this is I continually find that, I feel like I'm cheating the system a little bit, because I feel like I get to do something in life that gives me so, it's like a gift, right? I sure, as a social worker, I'm giving, right? But I feel like I'm receiving that I'm giving. And so, when I get to meet somebody who instantly I can tell, "Ooh, I'm not sure we'd be friends," which is a lot of people, right, that I'm working with. And I don't understand where you're coming from, but I actually want to understand, because I don't want to walk around, again, like going back to that child, like that child like Shawna, who was much furniture, actually, an adult Shawna. Going back to that little girl, it's like, I want to understand people who are different than me, because I didn't want to sit with the feeling that you get in your gut when you don't like somebody, or you don't agree with them, or you feel angry, or you feel frustrated, or resentful, whatever the language we use here, the feeling is still the same. But the reality that I've found that's humbling to me is that when you hear both sides, you see people who feel righteous in their decision-making, and they deeply care about that decision, right, oftentimes. And so, it's trying to rekindle that curiosity into languages of love, in my opinion. Like, "Okay, again, I don't agree with you." And to my client, I might say to a living friend, but I feel like now I understand where you're coming from, and now I can meet you somewhere. But oftentimes, I think we forget that that lack of curiosity is stunting our growth, and people feel lonely. We both feel strong about this, but more now than ever, people are lonely, and we have so many ways of connecting, but they're surface, right? So it's like, who, every day, in a broken record, you don't need to find 100 pennies, you need to find your four quarters, right? That's it, yeah. Truly. And maybe it's just one quarter, who cares? I know it doesn't make a dollar, but I'm not that a math, but not that bad. But it's finding that one person that you can just go a little deeper with. And it takes intentionality and skill, and sometimes it takes just owning the awkwardness. It's like, "Hey, I'm so curious. I want to make you uncomfortable, but I have a couple questions," right? It's just kind of like prefacing it, like easing in. But you're so non-threatening in your way, and the people that actually know you, and they know your heart, they know that you're asking, and that's coming from a good place. If you were to just walk outside right now and start asking curious questions to people, I don't know, there might be some phone calls, there might be some videos. But at the end of the day, I agree with you because I believe that everybody just wants to be seen and loved and heard. And one of the things that I love about Shana is the way that she sees people. She sees them as humans, and she thinks of their stories on very much an individual basis as part of what makes that person unique. And one of the things that my counselors taught me, and I know we've been talking about empathizing a lot in this episode, which I think is so powerful, but one of the things that Barb has said is that you're either sitting in one of two positions, there is no in between on this. You're either sitting in judgment, or you're empathizing with the person. And you can't do both at the same time. And I remember the first time she said that to me, and I was like, oh no, that's so bad for me, you know? But I would say that like for you specifically, like just, you know, very much being an empath, and you know, that's probably why you and I relate on such a deep level. And again, sorry, Nick and Jimmy, but this is who we are. This is how God created us, and we're cultivating these gifts from the Lord. So that's right. Shana, talk a little bit about how getting to hear so many stories each day has humbled you and just reminded you that even in the darkest moments of someone else's life or story, like you're able to pull out these seeds of resiliency and just the positive parts of what makes them in their stories unique. Yeah, yeah. So I know I was this probably a couple of times now, but I do believe that everybody has a story worth telling. And I am the person who's all ears ready to listen, right? I think everybody's stories we're listening to. I actually encourage a lot of people that I've worked with as a social worker to write their story down. And even if it's sharing again, it could be just sharing with one person. Don't keep it to yourself. No, no, no, there's so much good stuff there. And it might be tragic and it might be sad, but what I also encourage, and I do this for myself, it's not, you know, again, the video is something a social worker is when I'm talking to them, I'm like, oh, take note, Shauna, right? Like, also remind yourself. And so it's to look at like the, and I think as a pastor, Jack, as a pastor can that talked about this as well, where it's like, look at the times in your life that were most difficult and how that shapes you, like you don't go through life. And think I was really nice when I, I don't know, was valedictorian. That did not happen for me, just to be very clear. And that was not my, not my thing. But you look at times where, like, when I think about my grandfather, right, like that is something that literally shaped my whole trajectory. Do I wish it would happen? What would happen? No, but did it make me who I am in a way? Absolutely. Like, I, I care deeply, like watching my mom, you know, suffer from immense grief, like in watching her, it built empathy in me and wanting to just be, to help, just like being present with her when she was sad and to hold her hand, right? Like all of those things that it made me also want to understand people's stories, like tell me how this happened, right? I want to understand. Does it mean, again, I agree, but I want to understand, and I want to have empathy for you in a Christ-like way. And so the difficult times shape us. So look at, you know, having, getting to hear these stories, sometimes every, I tell them, and I mean it, and when I, and I tell these people that I work with, I usually tear up, and I hope that I'm not on video, but oftentimes I am. And I say, I am grateful, like, that you are sharing this time with me, your story with me, because I'm humbled. Like I truly am humbled by just the resiliency, the fact that they could keep waking up every day and doing what they're doing, and after lots of trauma, right, that people have experienced. So I feel like when they're talking, I get to listen, right? Like, you do a great job with this with your podcast, you get to listen, and then you can kind of sum things up sometimes in this nice little package, so they understand that, okay, what you're feeling is in fact grief, not anger, or so go easy on yourself, show yourself kindness, show yourself grace, like, and then help them to say they're worth, like, you are worthy, you're struggling right now, but you're worthy. And so even though at my job, I can't speak about my faith, I feel like I get to carry it forward just in a different way, right? And then allowing them and watching them as they feel seen, and you can see it, like you can visibly see like their physical self, like just the anxiety kind of like, just roll off, right? It's just it's a really beautiful thing to see that like, okay, they feel seen and heard and understood. And eventually, you know, we might get to problem solving, but in that moment, I feel like half of my job is just asking the questions to get them to pull it out of themselves, because I truly do believe that people have that ability. I just think that we have honestly lacked curiosity in ourselves at times of like, hey, what's what's making me act that way? And so take it, they forget to take that inventory. Yeah, it's scary. It's heavy. It's scary to have to look inward and own it. It's much easier to say, okay, I'm just gonna forgive myself and move on, but there are times where you don't have to sit back there, but you have to sit with the feeling of this is making me uncomfortable. What is it about it, though? Yeah. And so I feel like I get to be kind of like an aide in that. And so it's just, it's really humbling to see people and their strength to be able to pull it out of themselves, like to say like, I know you were strong. You just had to have someone ask you questions to pull it out. So that's how I feel like, I mean, it just humbles me every day. Like, I really do, I love my job. I love what I do. I knew at the age of 13, that this is what I wanted to do. Maybe didn't have the words for it, but I knew that I wanted to sit with people who were hurting. I didn't know what that was going to look like, though. That's so powerful. I think we've just gotten in the habit of stuffing for so long. That's not, you know, the technical term. You know, we've just been stuffing it and we have been not dealing with it. We've been sweeping things under the rug. Or, and then after we've been under the rug and we have a big pile, we just walk around the rug, right? And so I love everything you just said. I mean, one of the things that you have said to me before is that everybody's life is worth writing a memoir. And you pretty much just said that. But when I think about like, this idea of telling your story and just the power in that right life is so unexpected, right? This side of eternity, we're not going to have all the answers, no matter how curious we are. But we write things down, we put pen and paper and we start putting in the work because then that's our legacy, right? The good parts, the bad parts, the ugly, the crazy, the everything. And I'm telling you right now that there's someone listening to this that needed to hear that, like that their life is worth writing a memoir. And when we're depressed or when we are not doing our life within the context of a tribe, the enemy loves that. We know he thrives on separation and isolation. And I think that really, truly is what keeps him going. But when we begin to connect with other people and we ask questions and we go deeper, we're living the lives that God created us to live. That accountability and vulnerability is so key. And I honestly cannot imagine my life without the depth of the friendships that God has entrusted to me. I mean, I just feel like life would be so boring. I don't want to just talk to you about the weather or how many more days of school or although the countdown is on, you know that. But I believe that we were created to be curious about ourselves in our past, let's say curious about our families and like trying to connect the dots and process and make sense of our lives. And I think that that happens when we start at the very beginning, right, our childhood, and then we start building our story and we look back and sometimes it's with a counselor. Again, I couldn't imagine my life without my counselor, Barb. But taking the time to heal and taking the time to process. And like I said, like this side of eternity, we might not have all the answers, but we can be actively seeking and growing to be more like the men and women that God has called us to be. Okay, so tell me this, what is it about people's stories that keeps you coming back for more? I just feel so honored when they, when they, I mean, allow me to be part of it. I feel like it's a privilege. Again, it takes a while to get there. I was thinking about someone I used to work with and it took over eight phone calls. But I could tell every time I talked to her that the conversation would linger. So I just kind of knew like, you know, we've met all of the needs because it was a lot of case management questions, like how can I get this done? And like practical questions, but then she would just want to talk. And you know, part of that goes to loneliness and the isolation people feel in today's day and age. But it was just when she finally started opening up, I felt like it was a part of it. I felt like it was a privilege to be sitting in my spot. And then to kind of, you know, again, I can't say this to them, but to be, I mean, I'm in awe of how God created each and every one, every person has so many different gifts. And I'm the person who, because I'm so curious, I want all of the gifts too. And like, show, tell me how you did that. Like, you're asking someone who is curious and disorganized. And thank you for my husband, Jimmy, who is organized, right? God gave me my husband who is organized. But I'm never going to be that person, but I can learn from those people, right? And then just watching the connection happen. So, you know, I can think of friends in my life too, where it's like, I share something, it's reciprocal. They share something. It may not be the same thing, right? But it's the same level of depth. And you, you find connection in that. And when I'm working as a social worker, there is a level of, I mean, I don't go to the depths that they go to, but I will acknowledge that we're all human and that everybody in life, whether they choose to own it or not has felt hopeless. Yeah. And that's a scary, dark, heavy feeling. And so, I will say things like that. And I think they're, you know, I'll own that. Some people will not even share anything about themselves. Yeah. I make it a point to show that I'm still human to people with ethics, still in mind, right? As a social worker. But then you just, the connection happened even more. So, I feel like it's just, it's this really cool, reciprocal relationship in a way. And it's bonding for us. And I get to hear life lessons and new perspectives. And they really fill me up with hope. And so, I think, you know, when I think about just even friends in general, like those relationships, I want to know, I want to know everything about them. Like, I'm like, let's, okay, let's start a birth, right? Let's tell me about what your birth was like. And then tell me, if you know, right, maybe mom and dad didn't tell you, I don't know. And then tell me all about what shaped you, because oftentimes, like that moment, again, going back to the bullying situation as a child, again, it was, I'm not discretting it. It was a lot of grief to walk through. I know people have a lot worse today in today's day and age. But in that moment, I remember the feelings of isolation and loneliness were real. And, you know, I remember wanting to just understand them so, so much, right? But I think back to that story and the bonding effects that when someone shares something similar, I can recall those feelings. Right, I can recall that like sensation in my body. And it's connecting for me. So I want to hear like, okay, how did that shape you? Because for me, when I happened, it shaped me in a way that I want to, justice is very strong value of mine. Like, if I see something, I was the kid in high school that after going through that, I would call someone out nicely for picking on somebody or would stand up for them. I definitely wasn't a cool girl in high school. There's nothing about me that was cool. So I think my point is that those stories helped me connect people, but they also helped me live out my values as a Christian, honestly. Yeah, so that's what I think makes me come back for more is when I think about just relate the relatability. And what I want to say is something that I talk about a lot to is like, humans are fallible. I know you know this, right? But oftentimes I hear, I don't want to burn somebody. That's too heavy. They got their, they have their own problems. They're not wrong. We all have our own problems. Oh, yeah. But there's something so relatable. Again, even if I can't a lot, like, I don't understand the story or I was not in that specific situation, I can relate to if you say this happened. And I just, I don't know, I might be able to see shame in that person. They might not say the word shame. I can see that they feel alone. I will ask sometimes, like, but then I also just relate and say like, I've been there and and whether someone's, we don't relate to people when they just share the good at all. Like we do not relate to people when they just share the good and that it's something I'm passionate about is you have got to share a little bit of the darkness sometimes because then I look at you and I think you're human. Otherwise, I don't think you're human. And I know that some, and I have to believe you know that everybody is human as a Christian, but like not as a Christian as a human. You know what I'm saying? So I like that nobody's perfect. Right. Yeah. Well, it makes me a little sad for those people too. Right. You know, okay. So I remember when we first became friends and I don't know who said it first, but I think I probably said it because that's my personality. And I'm just, you know, hardcore, not a people pleaser, but you were definitely already living your life this way. I was like, yeah, I don't have time to have friends that are like just news, weather and sports. Like basically what I was trying to say was that I don't have the capacity for superficial relationships. And very early on, I saw something in you that wanted to go deeper. You wanted to know my story and you remembered the heart or the important things that I was going through. You're truly one of the best listeners that I have ever met. And sometimes now, like we'll be talking and I'll say something. And then you add a little detail that like I previously shared with you and I'm just blown away. I'm like, oh, she remembered that just your ability to like listen and dig deeper in that way. It's literally what having a tribe is all about. Okay, so last two questions I want you to hit on. The first is how does being curious serve you well within your tribe? And then we'll get into how does your desire to dig deeper and be curious, create challenges within your tribe? Yeah, I think so it serves me by, you know, kind of what you're saying I feel like there's a level of depth. I also will get to how that can not always be the greatest situation in a second. But I think being curious that deepens connections, that deepens bonding. And I am hopeful. I mean, I can't speak for my friends, but I hope that they feel like, you know, validated and normalized or they feel like someone is there and they feel seen. I know I say that a lot, but it's like the best way of putting it for me. Like they feel heard, like someone is listening. And I also hope there's a lack of judgment. Like people feel like there's like this lack of judgment. That's right. That's what I hope is happening. So I think when there's a lack of judgment, people are willing to open up a little bit more. Yeah. And also when there's a like, it's reciprocal. So if I'm sharing something, you know, again, it's about reading the room in context and the situation. But if I share something and I don't feel like there's a level of depth where someone else is going to share, I kind of just shy away from it. I might try something a little bit milder, you know, in the future. But I kind of know what relationship stands. So I think it's it's helped me figure out where relationships stand as well. And then creating challenges. Oh, man, there's a huge list. Yes. So my husband would tell you that sometimes my questions can put me on the defense. That's not a shock to anybody. So sometimes I have to rain in my energy. I'm a high energy, high eager, excitable, open person. And so I have to remind myself that not everybody wants to be asked 21 questions, right? And it can feel threatening or put them on like, again, like, why am I I'm a defense stand here? What what is your intention? So I really worked hard to like show that I am positively intended. And that I want nothing more than just to get to know you. And see if this could be a friendship that's worth investing in, essentially. And then again, just taming that desire, like, I get excited. I just want to know everything I can about somebody. Like, I really would have someone write the life story. But let me read that. Okay. And let me, I have so much to add to make you just, it makes sense. Like, I look at it, I'm like, oh, it makes sense. You are where you are. Yeah, of course. Like, but that can be free. Even for me, when I look back on my own past, right? Like, when you're asking to myself, like, Oh, that makes sense. It makes sense why I reacted like that or why I felt that in the moment. Yeah, 100%. You know, not everyone understands like this level of depth that we have in our friendship, you know, in the way that we talk and we share and people like comfort. So they do superficial and honestly, they just don't know any different or maybe it's that they don't know any better. But it's the people that have only, you know, work friendships or like superficial relationships where we look at them, especially you and I with how we feel things so hard. And we're just like, we're so sad for you, and we want so much more and we want to invite you in a relationship. But it's just so much easier, you know, to live like that. It just misses the mark of where God calls us to be with others and, you know, going along with your list of what makes being curious challenging. Like, there's always going to be a little awkwardness of people just not responding well to that curiosity. But sometimes that's God's way of protecting us from friends that aren't quite willing to put in the work or willing to go deep. And I don't know about you, but I would rather just know that upfront, like what I'm getting myself into. Like, if you're not capable of that, okay, I'm going to give myself to these other life-giving relationships. And one of the things that you said to me when we sat down and we had lunch with that dreamy dressing that Jimmy made for us. Thank you, Jim. And, um, or as Nick likes to say, my boy, Jimmy, he will not separate those terms. That's just how we talk about him. But you said, as humans, we relate to other people's humanness. And it's such a simple thought, but it's so true. Because like you said, when we hear about somebody struggling, like deep in the valley, we're able to empathize and go there with them because we're humans. And it doesn't mean we've experienced the same type of trauma or the same type of grief or struggle, but we can relate because we're human. Yes. Okay. So what is one piece of advice or a verse of scripture that you would encourage our listeners with today? Yeah. So one piece of advice, and then I do have a scripture. So I apologize. I have two things here. Um, is to tap into your inner child. And I know that might sound corny. Um, and I apologize for that. But I mean, truly looking back as a child, like most of us were more curious. We had to be curious. We had to learn. But then, you know, you hear phrases like curiosity killed the cat. And honestly, there's a bad connotation to being a curious person. Like it's kind of questioning authority. Sometimes people perceive it as that, right? If you're feeling defensive or not secure or, um, so it's, it's just, but it's tapping into like a holy curiosity. Like what are your intentions behind the curiosity? Is it just to know? Or is it to go deeper and to build empathy? Yeah. If it's to go deeper and build empathy, then tap into that. And I, you know, I, I do have to say Albert Einstein was a believer. So I am going to give this little quote here. I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious. And I love that. It's like simple. Um, and it's how I rule. I mean, I can relate to that where it's like, I, I'm a social worker. Sure. It's great. But only thing I really do is I practice curiosity. Like that's all I do. And, and I, and I hope I do a good job at it. I don't know. Um, but, um, I love that quote. And then Colossians, chapter three, verse 12 through 14. Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience. Bear with each other and forgive one another. If any of you has a grievance against someone, forgive us, the Lord forgave you. And over all, these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. And I know that's not about curiosity, but that's how I live out my curiosity. And I would encourage, and I, I don't think I'm alone in this, but it stood out to me. It's almost like something I want to live by every day. And I have to check myself of, do I just want to know why someone chose that outfit? Or do I, you know, because I'm curious or do I want to hear about their life story and where it's brought them and why they make the choices they make today and, and love on them in a way that is through grace and kindness and just Jesus calling us to love people who are maybe different than us too. So good. I love that. What I love about Shana is that she's not curious just for the sake of being curious. And I know that that has come through today in her message, just her heart and the way that she lives. She is curious because she cares. And at the end of the day, this type of authenticity is truly a direct reflection of the posture of her heart. She wants to get to the things that really matter. And here's what's really cool. She's not just curious about others. She is also curious about growing and being a better version of herself as she's on the journey of digging deeper with others. It's all just so good. I love it. Shana, thank you for being the loving selfless prayer warrior type of friend that you are. I am so grateful for your servant heart and your curiosity and just for you spending some time encouraging our listeners today. I love having you in my tribe and I really appreciate the woman that God has created you to be. Thanks girlfriend. Love you too. Let's make heaven crowded. I'm praying for y'all and I'll see you next week.