CULTURE CORNER
Shahad Bishara | Curator and Designer
(upbeat music) - Hello and welcome to Promenade Culture Center. This is Culture Corner. Today, we bring you another story, a creative story of a very creative individual. With us today is Shahad Bishara, a founder and curator of visual therapy. Shahad, so lovely to have you here today. - Lovely to have be here, actually. - Yes, thank you for finding some time in a always busy schedule, I'm sure. Although summer is before us, I'm hoping that leaves you some time for a good creative break. - Yes, I'm looking forward to that. - We always start these stories with how early did we feel we want to do what we are doing right now? And whether this interest for culture and arts is stemming from our early childhood and from our early experiences or not. Because it's very rare to have a curator to work with and Kuwait is a relatively small artistic and cultural scene. So we'd love to hear your story of how the Shahad Bishara became, what she became. - Yeah, absolutely. So I think it started around like when I was probably like five or six years old, my aunt, Auntie Sabihah. She's, I think I would say she still is. She still does work, but at that time she was quite an established Kuwaiti artist. She was one of like the first group of Kuwaiti artists to inhabit the free Atelier. Believe she was working in the '70s and '80s in Kuwait. And during that time, when I was five or six, it was when I really started to kind of recognize and see what she was doing. She would come over and bring a lot of her paintings. And I was just like really curious as to what was going on. And she took me to her studio and I would color and draw there. So I think that was that defining moment for me that kind of really opened up my eyes to like art and like, oh, hey, like I have a relative who does these and paints and we have artwork hanging in our living room from her. So that to me was the point where I was like, okay, art is cool, art is fun. I really love coloring, I really love drawing and I kind of just spring from that. - So you stayed strongly on that path even through your primary education and later? - Yeah, I mean, I continued obviously like, you know, middle school, you know, you do your thing, you paint, you color, you learn about the foundations of art. But I think it was not until high school where I really kind of took it to maybe a higher level. Especially around 11th and 12th grade 'cause I think that's when you really get to focus on your skills and really learn specific kind of skill sets and art like sculpting and portraiture and wheel throwing and things like that. So in 12th grade, well, I did all the art classes in high school, but in 12th grade I had this class where it was just me. It was like kind of like a discovery class where I would sit and I would create like my own body of artwork, it's very much like college art training but it was very much self-guided. I had the teacher with me, but I was by myself. I was doing my thing. It was creating a whole body of work under one theme and I got to display it in like the senior art exhibition and I want best artists in 12th grade, yeah. So yeah, that was a boost. But yeah, there was a boost and it kind of made me realize that, okay, this is what I want to do. When I want to go to college, I don't care about English or math or science or any of that 'cause my dad was a chemical engineer. Like he was a professor at Kwait University. So that whole realm didn't really interest me, that domain of like science and math and whatnot. I'm like, no, I need to go into something creative. I want to do art, but you can't get a scholarship to go do fine arts in Kwait. - I was gonna ask that because we spoke to a lot of people and they said they either opted for something completely different or it was architecture which felt close. - Yeah, no, architecture was never on my mind. I'm like, okay, I want to do something in art. I don't want maybe something related to design. So I just kept kind of digging into it and I saw that graphic design I think was like the closest thing to what I wanted to do. And even at that time, like the scholarships for graphic design was like very rare. It wasn't even like a major that people cared for or that was on the forefront of like art and design. I think not until later it became something that was more common. So yeah, I applied to different schools and then I ended up going to San Diego, San Diego State University. And I studied art. So my degree is art with an emphasis in graphic design. So it has nothing to do with curating at all, you know? But at that time, like curating wasn't even like on my mind. Like I didn't even know about curating or anything. - Setting abroad. - Yeah. - How much did Uni shaped you? Or how much did it change how you felt about art? - Oh, so much. I mean, the teachers were excellent. Even with my major with graphic design, I mean, at that time, like Adobe was like so, so new. It was like, and it's like very, very like maybe first version. So all the, my professors in university, they didn't care for, oh, you need to go do this on a computer. No, we did everything by hand. We did logos by hand. My first two years of, of school, I didn't even do anything related to graphic design. It was all like studio art classes. I did pottery, I did sculpting. I did like studio art. I did life drawing where we paint from like models and stuff. So I was like really, really into it. And I took a lot of art history classes. So that was like a big thing as well. So I did like Japanese art history. I did, you know, Renaissance. I studied so much. And I actually went deep into it 'cause I realized I was like, whoa, this is really, really interesting. So even very specific periods of like Renaissance or like medieval arts, we would have classes related to that. So yeah, I think that-- - It sounds very diversified the approach too. - Yeah, I mean, it's more like foundation base where it's like, okay, we know you want to study interior design or graphic design or art history or whatever, but we want you to have this holistic approach to art. Like we need you to draw. We need you to dabble with pottery. We need you to do that. Not until my last year of university is when we actually started using the computer for undoing illustrator and Photoshop and things like that. And even then, it wasn't emphasized. Like if you didn't want to use it, you don't have to. You can kind of just do things by hand. And I was encouraged that we learn to do things by hand. - Yeah. It's very different from how things are done nowadays. - Yeah, absolutely. Now like you see people, the first thing they do is go on their iPads. And even when they sketch and brainstorm, it's always on their iPads. It's always done digitally and like that whole thing. It's not, you don't really see many people with a sketchbook. I mean, you do, but it's not as common as people who sketch with their iPads. - You've mentioned that you were exposed to your aunt's art. - Yeah. - Studying abroad for some people, we've already talked to either they started regionally or went further abroad. They say it was very different in terms of how much they were not exposed to their culture anymore. So how much was it Arab art around here and then learning about something else elsewhere? Or were you always oriented to all sorts of arts? - I mean, obviously, when I was growing up, like one of my aunt's really good friends was Jaffa de Slaj, which was another great prominent Kuwaiti artist. So I was exposed to a lot of different art and there were books that she would bring and you know, we would see and she collects too. So she has a great collection of Kuwaiti artists. So I would always like see. And then in high school, when I was doing my research, I was very much inspired by like Samim Ahmed. My whole body of work was about the human body and the angst and the pain. I think it's so on-brand for high school students, you know? - Yeah, that age. - Yeah, that age, yeah. So, I remember I was gifted the Samim Ahmed, like big coffee table book by my art teacher. So I was aware of Kuwaiti artists. Maybe not so much international artists. I mean, I knew the few that I really love like Monk, for example, you know, obviously the big names, like Picasso, Matisse and all of that. But like, it's not till I went to college, till I was exposed to like more young emerging artists, yeah. - So you come back to Kuwait after college. And is it a sort of a shock? You're supposed to start working, applying your knowledge. - Yeah, it was- - In a very specific artistic scene. I'd like to hear about that time. - Yeah, yeah, for sure. It was definitely a shock. And I just didn't know like, I like graphic design, but I felt like I just kind of did it to be, and to be part of a creative kind of atmosphere and university, it wasn't really my calling. But I was like, okay, I'll give it a chance. Like my degree says graphic design on it. Yeah, you know, so I kind of have to show for it. So I ended up working in this very kind of small independent agency, as like a junior graphic designer. And like my first job right off that was working from like eight to six p.m. I was fine with it, you know, and was like good, was great. I learned like some more technical skills on the computer because like I said, the computer wasn't really on my list of things to learn when I was in college. But after like six or seven months, I just kind of kind of tired of it. Yeah, I'm like, this isn't my thing. I feel like I'm working with, I'm not being able to express myself fully. I was very much like working within very specific guidelines and what the client wants, which is great. I mean, it teaches you to be more disciplined, it teaches you to kind of understand that, hey, like there's corporate work and then there's like kind of free work that you do for yourself. So with corporate work, you have certain guidelines, you work under, there are certain parameters that you have to meet and abide by. So that was fine, but after a while, I just kind of got tired of it. And I was like, okay, I need to do something else. I was still kind of in the discovery phase of what I wanted to do. So then I applied to a fashion company. I worked at Atman, which was like a boutique of a family-owned luxury fashion boutique. We had like amazing brands, fashion brands. So I worked as like the visual merchandiser. So I would do the in-store like displays for the-- - Ah, your first curations. - Exactly. It was amazing. I loved it. So every like six months, I would come up with, you know, whenever they have a new collection coming in, I would do the in-store displays. And mind you, they had like a huge store. So it wasn't like window displays. I wasn't doing window displays. I was doing in-store displays. So they had this big area in the middle of their boutique. There was almost like a stage, you know? So I would come up with this big, grand like display or theme and like, it was a lot of work actually, yeah. So I would work with like out-outsource stuff, but I would do a lot of stuff by hand, which is what I love to do. But it was wonderful. Like I would come up with, I came up with some really, really cool kind of displays. And I did that for about four years or so. - I had lots of long time. - Yeah, I worked there for a while. I enjoyed it. It was, the atmosphere was great. The girls that worked there were also really sweet. And it was like, we're all like, you know, like a group of friends and, you know, would sit, we'd talk. I mean, you're in fashion. So it's never really boring. Yeah. And everyone gets dressed up to come to work and stuff. So it was kind of cute. - Yeah. - Did that after that, did you choose slowly your path? - Yeah. - And which you're today? - Actually during that time is when I started visual therapy. So I started really wanna focus on visual therapy. - Yeah, so it was during that time that I started visual therapy. And at that time, blogging was like a big thing in Kuwait. Like obviously, 2.48 AM was like on the forefront. And there was other big blogs happening. So I'm like, okay, this is like a platform right now that people are using. I'm like, let me kind of dive into it and see. So I started visual therapy. It started off as a blog. And I would kind of write about other stuff that's happening around the world. I would kind of gonna go and like repost things. Our topics were arts and culture. - Were art, mainly art and culture and like different exhibitions that were happening. And at the same time, I would go out to exhibitions that are happening around Kuwait and kind of take pictures and review them. I wasn't like, it wasn't critiquing them, but it was just a review of, hey, like this is what was happening. - It must have been very unique at that time then. - Yeah, I mean-- - That's what you were doing. - Yeah, I mean, it was different. It kind of gained following not just from local like readers, but I also had international readers and a lot of people would email me and be like, hey, artists, I would email me and be like, hey, I did this, do you wanna post on this or whatever? And I remember really famous, 'cause I was writing a lot about street art too. And a really famous street art blog contacted me and asked me to cover street art in the Middle East. So I would write random articles for them every now and then, which was really cool. I was like, okay, this is cool. This is like a nice kind of outlet for me. It was different from fashion and doing all of that. Yeah, so that kind of sprung something in me that I was like, okay, hey, I love fashion, but I don't love fashion as much as they do. The girls that go there, they're like, live and breathe and eat fashion. I'm like, I like it, but not that much. So I need to kind of follow my calling, which is art. I'm like, I love art, I need to do this. So I was like, the next thing for me to do, I think is to work in an art gallery. I need to work somewhere that's art related. What am I gonna do? The governmental entities, like national councils and stuff, it was on my mind, but I just didn't know how to- To penetrate that domain, you know. It just seemed like, oh, I actually, I asked people, they're like, oh, we have to apply through the whatever, the man, I don't know what it was. There's like an agency, yes, so to speak. And then they kind of decide on what they understand. Yeah, and then someone has to nominate you, like write a letter, I'm like, oh my God, this sounds like a big headache. Like I don't even know people, like who could do this for me? So I'm like, okay, forget that. Let me pursue it myself. So like the go-getter that I am, that's how I ended up in fashion. I actually like emailed them, writing them a letter that saying, hey, I wanna do this. And they were very like, oh yeah, this is cute. Come in for an interview at least, let's meet you, you know? So I did the same with galleries. I emailed a bunch of different galleries. What were the galleries that were prominent at the time? Are they still around? This is what I'm interested in. There was Sultan Gallery. There was a gallery actually that where, do you know the P.F. Chang that's on the Corniche? That used to be owned by the owner, I think of Villa Moda, the Sheikh, I forgot what his name was. He had like this huge concept store. And there was a gallery at the top of it called, I don't remember, but they had some really cool exhibitions happening. There was that and there was the gallery that was on, I forgot the name of it now, but it wasn't called the same thing. The one that's on the seaside, do you know? Okay, there's Hub, yes, Hub, where Hub used to be. There was another gallery. I think it's owned by the same owners, but they kind of just rebranded. I cannot remember, but Abed Al-Qadiri used to work there as the curator there. And I remember Alia Farid, the artist, used to work at that gallery with the Sheikh. She used to work on the floor, like she used to be like the curator or the exhibition director there. And then there was Dara Fanon. So I wrote to all of them. I met with the Hub, the previously known as the-- Yeah, yeah, we kind of got somewhere with that, but then in the end it kind of fizzled out. And then I met with Dara Fanon. And I'm like, oh my God, this woman, Lucy Topalian, she's the director of Dara Fanon. She is amazing. And I'm like, she does everything by herself. She's like, yes, I do need help, but I can't pay you like whatever it is that you were getting in terms of salary. I told her, I was like, I don't care. Oh, I think they're-- Oh, I think they're-- Yeah, they're for experience. Yeah, yeah. When you're very young, that's kind of a normal thing even. Yeah, you don't care about it. Now, as a person who manages things, I very much believe in people being paid for everything they do. But I fully understand these experiences that bring you so much more than just financial resources. Yeah, I mean, at that time, I didn't have the experience. So on what basis was I going to ask for X amount of money? OK, I just came in from four years of fashion that has nothing to do with art. But I was willing to just let it try it out. Try it out, let's see. OK, so I started with her, and that was that. I mean, she not only opened up my eyes to the real world and the business side of art, but she exposed me to any-- the experience with her was golden. Like, I could truly say she was my mentor, you know? I got to know collectors. I got to know artists. Because what she was doing at that time, in terms of art in Kuwait and art galleries in Kuwait, was top, I would say. Like, she really was bringing in the best artists. She really had, like, was working and dealing with the best collectors. So yeah. And at the same time, she knew about visual therapy, and she supported it fully, knowing that, like, hey, what I'm doing is also kind of like, I don't want to say competing. No way it would compete with what she was doing. But she was so supportive of it, that she let me do my first pop-up exhibition at that of Fanoon in the summer, because the summer was, like, her dead time. She would travel to the States, and the gallery would-- she told me that we would close the gallery for three months. I'm like, no, let's not close it. I'm here. Let's do something. So yeah, I did my first exhibition there. It was during Ramadan, and it was crazy. Like, it was packed. The gallery was full, full. And even she called me, like, a few days later, she was like, oh, my god, I heard from my neighbors, because she lived there, like, yeah. So the gallery was on the ground floor, and she lives on the first floor with her dogs and her cat. It was awesome. What was the exhibition about, the one you? It was called not just a pop-up, because it was not just a pop-up, you know? So I had Kuwaiti artists, it was my first artist that I actually worked with, F-160. And I had an artist from the States who sent me his work. He was one of my followers on the blog, and me and him were in touch and whatnot. And then I had, like, a graffiti artist in the courtyard of the gallery doing, like, kind of like a live art thing. And it was amazing. To be honest, there was no Instagram at that time. No nothing. So the only word of mouth was the blog and other people talking about it. And we spread the words kind of very, like, just between us and our friends, and it kind of just grew and grew, but it was like a hit. Like, for the first exhibition, I left, and I was like, oh, my God. Like, this is amazing. It really left me on a high. And I was like, OK, like, for sure, this is what I want to do. For sure, this is what I need to do. It was a great experience to make sure you're on the right path. I mean, I didn't have a space. So I was using where I worked as, like, pop-up. And that's the word. It's just priceless. Yeah, no, it was amazing. She was an amazing human being in general. She's so kind and very supportive. And she has so much knowledge to share and wisdom of working with artists, like, throughout the years. And mind you, she never really studied art. Like, when she first came to Kuwait, she was selling, like, computers and computer software and IBM. And I don't know what-- even her story was, like, inspiring. And to me, I'm like, oh, this is what I want to do. I want to be like you, you know? So this firms your belief in what you're doing. And by this time, you get to know Artistic Scene-- Artistic Scene very well. What is it like? What is the true art scene now in Kuwait? Oh, now it's very different. Like, you're talking, like, fast forward 15 years later. I've seen the changes, like, kind of go year after year after year. And even with visual therapy, we've kind of grown it organically and transitioned organically to cater to what's needed and what's wanted within the scene. What creates the need? I feel like just generations that are kind of coming into the scene and the followers to change and what's happening around the world, the technologies that we have now, like, especially with social media. I mean, it created, like, a huge change with, like, with the art scene and with artists and things like that. So people are being able to kind of expose what they do very quickly. Yeah. Whereas before, no. I mean, like, you had to really be creative with the way you, you know, market yourself. It has something changed in education. Have people-- are people studying art more-- Yeah, yeah, for sure. --accessible. For sure. There's definitely people that, like, over time realized that, OK, hey, maybe they did their bachelors and something, but they're like, OK, now, I can go do my master's and can go get an MFA. I can go get my master's and, like, art history or whatnot. So-- and a lot of these people, when they do that, they do that out of their own pocket, you know? No one pays unless they get a scholarship to do that. No one is really getting scholarships to go to do fine art. Yeah. So in this setting and with the work you do, what are the biggest challenges, but what are also the opportunities you meet? Challenges in terms of personal challenges or challenges within the general-- I mean, I mean general within the artistic scene when you're working. Because sometimes, for instance, I've spoken to a few curators earlier and they say, it depends on how much artists are supported. If there is a state support, you know, if they get to expose their art to exhibit, how much people know about it, how much people want to buy art, and so on. Because I know you work on some collections and-- Yeah. Is that still-- is the cultural milieu challenging? Is it how many artists actually are there? How nowadays, what do you use to frame your work? Like, what-- or do you still go after those things that simply you want to do? Like, you create projects for yourself or you search certain projects or-- To be honest, it's like a mixed bag of things. Like, with-- year after year, like, the more I work on specific projects, the more I realize, like, OK, like, I'm really interested in this aspect more. So in the beginning, when I was-- I was very much focused on exhibitions and doing workshops. It was kind of just to-- You had the space, right? Visual therapy-- Yeah, they got-- --that it's actual space. Yeah, yeah, that was one of the-- You know, like, before COVID, I had a space. I was-- we had-- Hey, I love to get in. She had the print room. And she-- I was basically using the loft, the top part of it. And I had it-- it was a gallery. Yeah, more or less it was a gallery for, like, a good year or two of the gallery. That was my first, like, shock in the, OK, I'm paying rent. It wasn't, like, a free space, you know? I was paying rent, so, hey, you need to do stuff all the time in order to make money. So I got a real taste of what gallery life is. I was working with a lot of younger artists, and I've always worked with mainly young artists. Like, that was my whole MO, is to support the younger artists, because all the bigger artists are kind of getting the support they need. They're kind of taken over, like, the spaces, and the funding, and whatnot, and the younger artists need support. Although I've worked with older artists, I've worked with a full range, actually. But I've always felt that the younger artists, they, you know, the less established artists, were-- was-- needed my support more. So the gallery was about that. It was good. It lasted, like I said, like, a short time, and then I felt like, this is-- this is stressful. It's taking the fun out of things. I want to do exhibitions when I feel like it's the right-- And that's a pleasure. I'm a luxury that, you know, you can afford yourself. I mean, like, yeah, I didn't want my focus just to be on exhibitions. I felt like there's more to the art scene than just art exhibitions. There's-- there has to be more ways for us to support artists than not just doing art exhibitions, you know, through-- So this is when I'm finally decided that, no, I want to not be a gallery, but I want to kind of shift my work into being an art consultancy. So within the art consultancy, I do do exhibitions, but it's more like, no, now I'm focused on building collections. So through building collections, I can support artists by acquiring their work. Managing different projects, like, for example, art residencies, commissions, art commissions for different, you know, clients that need that. So find different ways to support artists that's not just focused on art exhibitions. Because, to be honest, as much as I love selling artwork, it's not, like, my thing. Like, I'm always focused more on-- It's not a priority for you, yeah. Yeah, I mean, you know, I do-- I'm interested in supporting artists, I'm interested in curating, but selling art is kind of, like, second level or third level for me. It's not really-- We jumped a little bit like you said from the time at that alphunon, and then I asked you about the current artistic scene. So I just want to cover those years before visual therapy became what it became. So at some point, you phased out that alphunon, right? Yeah, I left that fenoon, and it's kind of focused on visual therapy at that time. Yeah, yeah. And I wanted to focus a little bit on how you work with artists. You've mentioned a lot of ways of how you support an artist now, days through consultancy. But for instance, we do a program together with prominent culture center. We're very, very happy to have created an art residency. And let's say even two art residences in a way, because one is the backbone of a cultural center, which I firmly believe in. And then the other one is also the mural residency, which we do on and off, which is kind of a gift to a location where the center is located because it's a commercial center. Your work with an artist, so far we've seen you personally work with a lot of artists here at the center. And they have never left without expressing how supportive they were and how well understood they were. What's the formula? To be honest, there's no formula. It's just about finding the right people to work with. Like I said, even when we were looking through the submissions, I kept telling you that, hey, working with artists, it's all about to me personally, it's about chemistry. You need to have good chemistry with the artists in order to get a good result. If an artist is difficult, whatever, chemistry is like subjective, right? Maybe an artist to you doesn't seem as difficult, but with me, because I'm kind of pushing for different things, it feels more difficult. So I feel like chemistry is really important, even more important than their work sometimes. Because when you work with an artist and there's good flow between you, I think the work will come naturally, like the good work will come just because they're willing to take your points, you're willing to hear them out, and it's just kind of flowing in a good direction. So to me, that's a big thing. I'm always open to working with new artists. I'm always interested to seeing what new things are coming out and what different artists are working with. So I'm always on the lookout, but I feel like chemistry is the biggest thing. So it's always the first thing I feel out, and it's like, hey, I've worked with this artist before. I know them, and I know that they're a good fit for this or that. So I feel like that's my knack. I have an eye for certain things, and I'll understand. So when I learn about a project, I'm like, automatically, I can understand who would be a good fit for that without having to go through those trials and errors and stuff. There are a lot of great projects you did in the past years, and I can think of some, but I'd like you to mention some that you really enjoyed working on, whether they were complex or simple, doesn't matter, because you mentioned art consultancy, acquiring collections, working on collections, working on building an artist, and so on. So what are some of the projects you'd like to share for what they brought to you personally? If I think of my greatest achievement as a curator, I would say it would be the sculpture I did with MBK and the Imanati artist. I mean, it didn't require curating, but it was a lot of project management, so I was a middle person. I basically proposed, they told me that, hey, we want a sculpture. I proposed several different artists to them, local artists and regional artists. They chose the artist, and then I basically was the middle person between the artist and the client, and I watched this project grow from a simple idea, a sketch on paper, to a I don't want to say, at 15 or 18 meter sculpture, it's quite impressive. It is really impressive, and it's like, if you really understand the work and the blood, sweat and tears that went into this, you would be even more impressed, because it was literally a year and a half in the making. All of it was done in Dubai. It was shipped by land to Kuwait. It came by land, shipped on huge, you know, lorries. I don't even call them lorries. I wouldn't even know what to call them, like flatbed, you know. There were so many challenges with this project, so many, and I wasn't just working with an artist. I was working with an engineering team. I was working with logistics. I was working with customs people. I was working with so many different people. And the expectations from the management? Yeah, the management are great. I mean, they were, they loved everything, and they were happy, and they were so like, you know, with all the challenges, they were very much... It's incredible. The things you need to know. I remember one of the first things I did when started working after college was, I need to get some 35 millimeter film in the outside the country, and I wasn't even aware how much of a customs work it is. And it's a cultural good, so you cannot just put it in a bag and send it out. So yeah, the paperwork and documentation and all of it, while you're actually creating something very artistic. Yeah, I mean, like, and this is like, because it's like a huge sculpture, it wasn't just, hey, we're gonna put the sculpture on. No, it was like, oh, we need to do the base for it. The base alone took a couple of months for us to put on the ground, to test, to fix the under part of it. So it was a lot. Like, in the end, after a year and a half, I think everyone was relieved that it was done. But it was, it was fantastic. And it's like, okay, true, we didn't work with a local artist and everyone, a lot of people gave me that comment. But I don't think anyone else could have pulled it off. Like, this, this, the artist, Mataraban Mahaj, he, he knows, he knows sculptures, he knows how to work with sculptures. He's done huge projects before. He did the facade of the Museum of the Future, the one on Czech side, wrote in Dubai. So he knows, he knows his stuff. Yeah, like, so, you know. There's value in this, in the diversity of the author you have in your own country, there's value in reaching out to other artists regionally. Yeah, exactly. There's nothing wrong with it. I mean, like, okay, I, I'm all for supporting Kuwaiti artists. Which is what you do daily. Yeah, basically your work. Yeah. But like, there's nothing wrong with bringing a taste of other, other work in Kuwait. So, so let's say we, if we had like, a well-known sculpture come and put something in Kuwait, like, what's wrong with that? Yeah, no, that's actually great and a great opportunity to share knowledge and experience. Yeah, I mean, and he was so happy because he's never done anything Kuwait. So this was his first kind of imprint in Kuwait. And you know, just to have that. And like, you know, with exhibitions, they come and go like, you do the exhibition, you take it down, it's gone. Like, all you have left is the documentation. But something like this, no, like, this is going to last a while. Like, you know, this, this is going to last a long time. They might outlive me. My, my kid would be able to see it, be like, Oh, mom did this, you know? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And you people drive by it and see it. And a lot of people are like, Oh, hey, we didn't know you, you did this or you were involved in it. I think this is my, my challenge as, as my personal challenge and my challenge as a curator is that I'm bad at marketing. I'm bad. I'm okay. I can mark, I can support artists and market, but the stuff that I do for myself, I'm pretty bad at it. Like, I'm not really that active on Instagram. I believe that, you know, you probably know yourself best. At the same time, you have an amazing name and reputation. Yeah, I feel like because I am the, I came from the generation that like social media wasn't, you know, like it wasn't my, it didn't define my work and it didn't define who I am. So I don't really care for. By the time it came, you, you established yourself. Yeah, I was already like, you know, I've been doing like by that time. So I didn't really, so to me, it's just like, Oh, it's just like proof of, of life. Like, Oh, hey, we, we did this. Oh, we did that. Like, if you want to come see it, do that. But for me to sit and post on stories and stuff, I'm like, Oh, I don't have, I don't have the energy for that. I'm too focused on like, what I'm doing. Yeah. What are some other projects that you would like to share? I think are the best stories. I mean, yeah, that was in terms of like scale and yeah, but I think another one that was really cool that we did was when I was with, when I was at, when I had the gallery space, it was a passion project, if you will, it was about something we thought of, I thought of that, Hey, let's say I love hip hop a lot. Like, to me, hip hop is like, my favorite genre of music. It really defined, defined my personality, going up, it defined my style, the way I thought, what I did, especially in college as well, like all the concerts I used to go to, it inspired my sister to become a DJ, you know, me playing the music that I did and what not. So I'm like, okay, I really want to do something that's not art. That's like, how that's something that's not tangible. Like, okay, music. How do we make an exhibition about music? So we did an exhibition that was a collaboration between me, my sister, and like, kicks, he has like a insane collection of sneakers and he's like a sneaker head and he has like a big following. So we did an exhibition about the influence on hip hop, how hip hop influenced sneaker culture. So this was like, it wasn't just like, Hey, let's just put a bunch of sneakers on and tag some music to it. No, this was research done. We chose sneakers, like iconic sneakers, like the Air Jordans, the Air Max, like the Cortez or whatever, like different sneakers that define that were basically like kind of, which was helped define specific songs in hip hop, you know, so and each, it wasn't like artworks. Okay, so you have the sneaker, it was on the sneaker was on display. And behind it was like a barcode that you can click on and listen to the snippets that would mention the sneaker and different hip hop songs. And then there was a write up about it. So this was like a very heavily researched based exhibition, but it was also really fun. I mean, it's the kind of exhibition that you would see in a museum. Yeah, you know, like for a small gallery space, maybe it was like a little too much, you know, but even in the opening, we had like a DJ playing everyone came dressed in like their, their finest like kicks, you know, we did a coloring book for it. We did like a mixtape. There was so much merch that came with it. We had a talk, we had like a closing night thing. So that for me was one of the greatest exhibitions I've ever done, because it was like, oh, we did it out of love. And we did it, we put so much work into it, that, well, maybe people don't realize it. And this is when I really felt like, oh, there's a lot of work when it comes to these types of exhibitions, when you're looking into history. Yeah, I'm dealing with two different people, working with two other people who are collaborative in this. So it was nice. What prompts you to work with a relatively small and new entities, for instance, such as prominent culture center? I mean, we knew each other from before, briefly, also through arts and culture. What I personally like is your extremely responsible approach. Thank you. Thank you. Everything is on time. Everything is on cue. Yeah. That's the Virgo in me. Which is rare. It's these are rare qualities nowadays. Oh, to be honest, like, to be a curator, you're like, you know, like you have to lay down the foundation work. You have to be a good time. You have to have great time management. You have to be a good organizer. You have to be a therapist to the artists and to the people around you. You have to be like, it's a full on approach. It's not like, oh, hey, I'm just going to pick art and whatever. No, like, you need to be good. And for me, just to be able to manage my business, because it's like a one man show visual therapy. Okay, true. I have one woman show in your case. Yeah, one woman. Yeah, one woman show. Yeah. So like, in order for me to be able to manage my project, I have several projects happening in one. You know, I have good, a good time management. I am glad that we decided not to do something just one off, but this is a continuing project. And also that we've decided to have artists actually on spot work and create art in a very unusual and common space, because we do it here at the commercial center where we're located. But it changes the energy of the space, having them around and having you come and critique and consult with them. And I've seen them change and grow no matter where they are with their art, what state they're in, you know, what phase they're in. We've had really beginners, we've had more established artists. And I'm happy that people want to come and work on the topics we give them. And also, the most important event throughout the year is the exhibition that happens after it. And I've seen you, it's relatively small, given it's two artists and a few artwork they create during that time. But at the same time, it grows into something larger. It just shows how curation has to have an impeccable approach, no matter what you're showcasing. Yeah, I mean, for me, like, I love working with you guys, the PCC. I mean, it's one of my favorite kind of organizations to work with because you guys like do a lot. And it's it's very admirable what you guys do and inject into the scene and the way you support the artists. And I love, obviously, with the residency, I mean, I love working on it and I would love to continue working on it. And I think this is something that even if I'm ever not around, like, it needs to keep going, because there's very few organizations in Kuwait that offer these types of residencies to artists. And it's amazing to see how an idea starts from a paper, just words to a finished project. And to me, that's like, I love that. Like, it's like candy to me, you know, I love seeing things kind of grow and me being a part of this process and kind of helping and honing that growth. To me, it feels, I feel very accomplished at the end of the exhibition. It's not like, Hey, here's a bunch of artwork. Let's do something with it. No, it's the same feeling we and it's very complex. Like I said, because there are so many things to take care of first during those two months working. And a lot of artists actually, even when chosen, don't really come with a final idea of what they want to do when your work there is needed and crucial. Yeah, what I think is necessary is just conversation, you know, like understanding where they are in their head, the artist, and trying to pick their brain, not telling them what to do, but kind of giving them throwing little seeds in them, you know, letting them try out different things, or, Hey, maybe we, if you, why about if you try this direction, or maybe let's give this direction a go, and then letting them have their aha moment by themselves, but obviously me in the back being like, Yay, yes, this is what we're, you know, this is what we what it is about. Yeah, and what we want, you know, and you know, just kind of developing that friendship and comfort with the artist for them to feel like that they can, you know, pick up the phone and call me or send me texts and whatever, and not feel like it's very like formal, like, no, I'm, I'm at the end of the day, like, I want to be your friend, maybe we're not going to be buddies, you know, but that brings the best results. Exactly, like the support they feel. Yeah, the knowledge you share. I know you, you always like to end on with a talk, or with a closing night, these events that we have during exhibition, and that there's some sort of exchange, and the artist's word is heard, and their opinion, and their, their stance on their art. And I'd like you to tell us about the Divania we used to host. Oh, yeah, because yeah, I heard of it, we've spoken about it briefly, but and hoping we'll have it maybe in the future. I mean, it was, to be honest, it was an idea that me and a friend of mine who doesn't live in Kuwait anymore, we always thought at that time it would be, hey, it would be cool to like create a duanea with like, like-minded people and just kind of talk. The first it was like, oh, let's just gather people and like, just, you know, have people talk and stuff. But then I was like, no, I mean, like, people aren't just going to come. I mean, we need to have like a goal. So like, okay, let's, let's do it. We'll call it design D1, although it not really doesn't have anything to do with it. Okay, it has design related topics, but it's also our topics, but design D1 just had a nice rank to it. Yeah. So we called it design D1, and we would, for a while, we were doing it monthly. I mean, I think the Instagram account is still active. So people, it's at design D1. You can go in and see what we used to do. We would gather in like different places, like different galleries, different, you know, just random places. I remember I did one even at AUK, and just each month we'd have a topic, and you'd have regulars that would come, but then you'd have new people. And it's just like, obviously, like people who are interested in the topic would come. And we would just sit and talk, and I would lead the conversation. I would have like notes, but it wasn't like, oh my god, like, you know, but it's just like, oh, hey, this is like kind of the topic. It wasn't scripted, but at the same time. No, no, no, we just kind of wanted to get the conversation going and then touch on specific points that way people leave feeling that, oh, okay, like, yeah, I kind of learned something new, or I kind of like it, you know, a lot of inspiration stems from these moments. We've had a few young people who were really fascinated with the fact that there is a curator who came to the exhibition and realized what your work is, and we had a young lady who said, I want to be a curator, and I am now inspired. And that's huge. Yeah, that is huge. To be honest, like, knowing what I know now, like back in the day, like, obviously, we all wish that we did something different. Like, I'm like, okay, maybe I should have went to school for like art history or museum studies. But at the end of the day, I feel like when it comes to art, if you're not an artist, and if you're not trying to take it to a serious level, a curator, you don't really need to study curation. I feel like a lot of it comes with experience. And a lot of it, you know, you can, you can go do residencies, you can go take like short courses, even long courses as well, to kind of really... Do you still pursue art, your own art? No, unfortunately, I don't. Do you do it with a kid? Yeah, I mean, he loves to color and stuff. But like, I mean, like, when he gets a little older, we can expose, like, I don't want to force what it is that I do on him. But we do go to like museums and things like that. Like when we travel, like, I still like that that's still my thing. Like, I go and even with my husband, like my husband loves art. And he always tells me that, oh, hey, you need to market yourself more. You need to do this. And you need to... I'm like, you know what? I've been doing this for a while. I kind of know what I'm doing. You know, if I feel like I need a little push in this direction or push in that, I'll do it. Like, I know myself and kind of like the direction I want to take in the vision. Yeah. You're at the time in age when you really know who you are and what you want. Yeah. And I feel like, okay, like... I'm saying this very confidently because we're the same age. Yeah, exactly. So I kind of feel it. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not going to go back to school and do my masters or that did cross my mind. But then I was like, you know what? What's that going to do for me? You know, I just wasted two years where I could be like doing actual work in and, you know, why? I'm like, I've had so much momentum now. Why am I going to stop it? Just because I want to have a degree. Like a degree doesn't define... Yeah, that's true. Unless you're an an academia. I want to. Yeah. Or you want to be like a professional artist. Of course. Because a lot of our want to work in a museum, I think. If I really wanted to work in a museum, like, you know, they want someone who has like a masters in like art history or museum studies or creation. But even working in a museum, it's limiting as well. Because I think working in a gallery is way more interesting than working in a museum. It has more pace, probably. Yeah. With museums, they're very much... They go by guidelines. It's very formal. It's very, you know... What is in plants would you share with us? If plants? I think for me, it's just kind of... Keep things going with the residencies. Working on that. Really kind of focusing as well on the mentorship program that I do with the youth. Working on that. Keep that growing. And just kind of really just like stay busy. Like stay active. Because I think, you know, in Kuwait, like if that's the thing in Kuwait as well. Like if you don't do stuff regularly, people forget about you. And I think in general, that's common all around the world. But it's just to keep, you know, being active, keep working with artists, keep making sure that they know that you exist still, that you're still working, that hey, you know, and keeping an eye out for interesting artists. Like for example, tomorrow I'm going to have coffee with this artist that I've been following on Instagram that I really like. And I'd like to do an exhibition with her like next season. Let's see how it goes. Like let's get the conversation started. So this is the time right now between May, June, July is when I start planning my upcoming season. Yeah. So I already have things like in the pipeline. So it's important to just, you know, keep that flow going, keep that momentum going. And even for me, just to keep that like passion and interest and energy going, because I mean, that's kind of what keeps me, you know, alive. Like I don't have at this point right now, it's been 15 years going on 16 with visual therapy. I know nothing else but visual therapy. I'm never, I'm not never going to go work in an office or in a corporate job or that, you know, that's not even my like, well, that sounds very, very inspiring. I would say for a lot of people who want to opt to work for themselves. Yeah. But mind you, it took 15 years, you know, it's hard work. Yeah. And it was like a very slow growth. It was very organic, but slow and steady. But I think so and steady is what lasts rather than just spiking up and, you know, yeah. So I've seen a lot of other kind of initiatives that happened around the same time as me. Kind of just diffuse and fizzle out, you know, and I'm like, proud that I'm still going. Still there. Yeah. Although my direction has changed, but I, my direction changed because the needs changed, because things around me changed. And I adapt to what's kind of required around me. And I think that's important in order to survive, you know, can't be stuck in your specific ways of doing things. No, you have to change. Yeah. But still keep that the values. My values are still the same. I still, you know, have specific like things that I look out for. Yeah. I'm still a bit old school in what I do and what I require and what I need from artists. Like, when I see an artist that doesn't have a website, I'm like, what are you doing? Oh, I have an Instagram account. I'm like, no, it's not enough. I mean, it's not enough. Instagram is a visual platform. People look at it or whatever, but like move on. You need a website. If you you need a website where you put your content, you put your words, you put your statements, you put your images are bigger, you know, things like that. I'm still very much old school about. And I think the art world in general, like, that's they're the same, you know, as much as we try to become new and adapt to like the new new new that's happening, there are still old school things that are instilled in us that kind of is what makes us like strong and, you know, grounded. It was really a delight having you here today. It's always a delight talking to you. And we'll see you very soon. Thank you for coming to come to Cart. Thank you for having me. [Music]