LoserKid Pinball Podcast
Ep 141: B/W Godzilla and Haggis Thoughts
[MUSIC] >> Thanks for tuning in to Loser Kid Pinball podcast through our episode 141. I am Josh Rup with me, my co-captain, as always. >> Scott Larson. >> Hey, and that's the first time I haven't screwed it up in like three episodes. >> I know, it's been amazing. >> Yeah. >> [LAUGH] >> And there was a new game revealed, well, new-ish, right? >> Uh-huh. >> If you want that game, Scott, which it kind of sounds like you do, where you getting it from? >> Ooh, yeah, Zach and Nicole Minnie at Flippin' Out Pinball. They've always been really good, and I'm really excited to talk about this game. They're really responsive, they've always been able to find that. And so if you don't want the new black and white Godzilla, and you're maybe looking for a rush that's going to come out on the line. Go ahead and contact them at Flippin' Out Pinball, and they'll get you hooked up. >> Awesome, and their customer service is great. >> Right. >> It's insane. But, okay, before we get into pinball, I had this creepy moment happen last week. And I think this all happens to us, right? So I want to bring this up, because I feel like we can all relate. So I apologize, if it's not pinball, you can skip like five minutes if that. So I was DJing the 4th of July parade in my town. We're downtown when the floats goes by. And this guy's wearing one of those big straw hats that say like SA on the front of it. So like the shield. >> What does SA mean? >> I think it's like shield of America or something like that. It's like if you go online, they sell like the armbands you can slide up you. That kind of protects from sunburn and stuff like that. And they face shields like a buff from Survivor. I don't want us to describe it. But there are these big straw hats on the brim, underneath the brim. That's like the American flag or whatever. I was like, huh, I've been gaining some on spots on my face. I work outside a lot. So I'm like, man, I should get a straw hat. So that way, and check out this company. The next day, I just thought this. I didn't Google it. I didn't like talk about it. I didn't, you know what I'm saying? I'm like, all the things you think my phone heard or knew, and Facebook starts trying to sell me these hats from this company. I'm like, that's creepy. >> No, no, no, no, no, no. >> Have you ever had that moment, Scott, where you're like, I thought that and I didn't think much about it. And all of a sudden my phone's like, hey, you know what, you should, you should buy this product or you should check this out. >> Yeah, you should really fit our demo. >> Yeah, well, okay, it's part of it is because targeting advertising is getting creepily accurate. >> Yes. >> And that. There's like, oh, well, based on your browsing history and I'm, I would like to be annoyed about it. However, there are a few things where I'm like, actually that'd be a really good idea. Yeah. So, so, you know, it's, it is a little bit of a privacy issue, but I, I totally done that. And, and we've all had that when we're home. And we have either the phone out or, you know, Alexa or something and we're having a random conversation and then you start getting targeted ads. >> Yeah. >> Unfortunately, it's just the way of the future. >> It is. It is. It's, it's, it's really weird. It's really weird how accurate it is. >> Yeah. >> Kind of scary. And just, just in case anybody's like mildly creeped out, they should be a little more creeped out with, if you read 1984. >> Yes, just the, just involvement of other forces into your life can be interesting. However, if those forces have to be pinballed, then I would say we're all for it. >> Yes, exactly. So just give us, you know, it's been, it's been a minute Scott since we've talked about our lives. Let's, let's just do a quick update because we got some notes here. Yeah, like the news has been slow-ish, but we got some, we got some decent. >> People want to know. People, yeah. >> So one thing I had is yesterday, maybe last night, the night before, not last night but the night before, I, I came home from work and I'm asking my wife and was like, okay, why is it so hot in here? It's like so hot in our house and I took out one of those steak thermometer things that use for barbecuing and I put it over in our vent and it was blowing out air that was 80 degrees. >> Nice. >> It was circulating, it was blowing something, but it was not cooling and I thought, huh, so I, I, now unfortunately, Josh lives three hours away from me and I, I, so I can't use you as my go-to guy, even though I'd love to if you wanted to, but I, I texted the guy who I, I've been going through and didn't really, like in the morning, I didn't want to send it to 11 o'clock at night. I sent it and then I called it like eight o'clock in the morning and I just got a message machine and said, hmm, that kind of stinks. So I contacted Josh and I said, hey, dude, my air conditioning doesn't work. He's like, okay, walk outside, check this out. Okay, look at this. Is the fan working? No. Okay. It's your capacitor. Pull this thing off. Figure out what this thing is. So Mr. Handyman here, I pulled everything off. I took a picture of it. Josh said, okay, I've called the place in your area. Just go and they'll use my, you know, my business account so you can get it. And so I went and picked it up and swapped out my capacitor. And now my air conditioning is working again. Ta-da. Ta-da. Piece of cake, right? Yeah. Well, the thing is it's, I mean, it's, okay, it's like pinball repairs, right? It's like, if something's wrong and you know what to do, it's a pretty easy fix. If you, if you're looking underneath the hood of your game and you have no idea what's going on, it could be a maddening like 12 hours. Yeah. Yeah. So my favorite part is you just like, okay, take the panel off. And so I take the panel off and I take a picture and you're like, that's not the panel. That's the electrical box. That's not the panel. Yeah, that's exactly. Well, it was like, well, okay, I had a screw and I unscrewed it. So just don't stick your finger in there. You're not gonna be happy. Yeah, I didn't. Oh. Yeah. Other than that, though, I am currently on vacation. We are up in the mountains and I'm glad that the Wi-Fi signal is good enough. So our spacious apartment from 1982 with a swarm of locusts that decided to fly in. That's what the brass hoppers is this year. Oh, I Utah it's terrible. Yeah. Well, okay. Bugs everywhere. So it's hot because they're up in the mountains. So they don't have our conditioning either. Yeah. So we had the windows open and I, I swear all the insects that Noah put on his arc found their way into here as a safe harbor. I totally agree. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Anything else? So mostly just work and family stuff. You went into a concert? I did go to a concert. So you know this like loser kid is actually based off of an old obscure brand that Blink-20.2 used to own. So it shows you I enjoy Blink-20.2, right? So Thursday Blink-20.2 was at the Delta Center. They were in town. They were in town. It's like a match made in heaven. You showed up with your hats. So guess. Yeah. I guess what I did. I lost the Blowfish. I lost the coin toss. Exactly. Well, you had a collective soul who like stole the carpet from Papa and made a suit out of it. Yeah. It was that suit. I honestly, I would like that suit. That suit was pretty gnarly. It was a pretty awesome suit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it was interesting because they played a lot of covers for a band that you know as well recognized and whatnot. They played like that. Wait. Like a soul played a lot of covers? Oh no. And who he did. But collect a soul did do an AC/DC dirty deeds cover and the main singer surprisingly sounds a lot like Brian from AC/DC. Like when he tries to be AC/DC, like they could just replace. Okay, dirty, okay dirty deeds though. That song was Bon Scott. That was not Brian. Oh, was it? Oh, I thought it was Brian. Brian didn't come on until back in black because Bon Scott died. Okay. Yeah. Did you ever hear the story about Brian when he auditioned? Okay. I think I remember like when Bon Scott was alive and he saw Brian, he'd like he'd be a good guy in the band. Yeah. So they were taking auditions for singers and he came in in the middle of singing his appendix ruptured and he fell on the ground was still singing and like, you know, convulsing and whatnot. But man, this guy's intense. He's like into it. And so he got the job but he went directly to the hospital after the auditions because his appendix ruptured. Well, he's been, he's been singing like his appendix has ruptured ever since. Exactly. So, but yeah, it was a good concert. It was, it was not my first choice, but it was still a good concert. Okay. But it was funny because like they covered show. They do good. They do a good show. They do good. Yeah. But who do you think I said they covered like Led Zeppelin, REM. They did a mishmash of notorious B.I.G. songs. Well, I know like the pinball communities like clamoring for a rap out or a rap CD. They go the hooty way. They've been around since like 86. So you know that like 80s is big with the pinball community. So may do a hooty pin with them. Hooty singing. Wooting. Yeah. Very good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was a good concert. I am, I am a heretic when people talk about themes they would like in pinball and every time they bring those themes up, I always bring up your, you're going to sell like a hundred of those because that is not a huge thing in, in, in the pinball marketplace of the people who buy. And I know that you're walking that fine line of do you only sell to the people who you always sell to or do you find other people, I, I do not see like a hooting being a big deal. Like a big seller. Do you think like beastie boys would go over well because it's a good mishmash of rock. It'd be better with rap. Yeah. All stuff like, you know, Brooklyn or no sleep till Brooklyn and, and fight for your right to party. But then if you didn't do or stuff like intergalactic and stuff like that, you'd, you get a good mishmash of rock and rap. So I don't know. I think, I think that's a good starting point in my opinion. It would certainly be a more of a crossover because you'd get more of the middle age white guy demographic and that's, you have to at least sell enough. You don't only have to cater to the middle age white guys, but you have to sell enough to the middle age white guys because that's who are the majority of the buyers. Yeah. Yep. That's. Beastie boy. Give another 10, 20 years. Maybe. Yeah. Beastie boys have never totally figured out because they always, I know that they have a huge following and people love them and I saw them, um, 2009. Okay. When, when they were, uh, it was like a big festival and that was when the police re had a reunion. Okay. So like, so I went and I saw Beastie boys and the police and I always felt that they were, uh, they were a bunch of rich Jewish kids from New York who got together and made like a hip hop album and it sold, which it's just kind of funny. It just seems like a, it's totally non-intuitive considering all the rap that was being made at the time. Yeah. And it's, but hey, it, it worked. It was definitely a mismatch of styles that connected with a lot of people. Yeah. I agree. So all right. Let's, let's move on. I think people have had enough of, they've got the five minute fill of our lives. Meanwhile. Meanwhile. Okay. Meanwhile. As it's happened in the last two, three weeks, Godzilla, black and white, let's talk about this. What, what do you think, what, what were your initial reactions when it first came out? Um, this is a good move for Stern because it takes the opportunity to release various versions of a premium brand and pinball machine. Yes. And I would argue that this could have been an L E. However, we've also seen what have happened, what has happened when Stern has decided to release things under the L E badge. Yeah. That after they've already released an L E. So the, this is, this is getting a little bit back to like ACDC Lucy edition. This is getting to like Batman 66 cat woman edition. These are, these are alternative art packages for an existing game and they, they did something very smart where they kept it at the premium package price. Yep. Uh, did they need to do this? Maybe not. Uh, Godzilla sells enough as it is. Yeah. However, as we, as we look at the sales of Stern, you see how much of their volume is dependent on L one releases. Yeah. So if they can find a way of squeezing a few more buyers and I'm, I'm interested. My wife still prefers the color. So I don't know if I'll pull the trigger on it. However, my friend who just comes over and plays my Godzilla who actually lived in, in Japan for a couple of years, he saw that and he said, I want the black and white. Oh, yeah. So this is going to sell games. Oh, yeah. It looks really cool. Looks really cool. So, so one thing I want to point out too, because you were talking about like Ellie and stuff like that. So if we can rewind back to 2023, you know, they did release a JP 30th. They replaced a new Elvira 40th anniversary. That was an Ellie. Those are both Ellie's book. That was like the super Ellie, like the Elvira was, that was like a bond 60 cash type grab. Yeah. So my assumption is, is they have some of these in their back pocket, ready to go when a, when a game is not selling as well as they had hoped, because you watched like when those both dropped was shortly after Venom, like Venom had only been out a month. And that's the first thing I thought was like, you only have Venom out for a month, like in your dropping Jurassic Park 30th, like you're kind of taking the wind out of the cells of venom cells, but maybe it wasn't selling well enough. Are they taking the wind out? I don't know. They're keeping the line moving. Okay. That's, that's my point. My point is Stern is a, Stern is number one, a pinball manufacturer. Correct. So they are quite tuned in and any manufacturer will do this. They're quite tuned in on what is selling at the time. And this was Williams, right? Yeah. Williams, they would manufacture and say, well, we, we just need to keep the line going. And so if the demand is dropping off for this game, we need to pivot to the next game and they know that there are going to be ebbs and flows in the, in the sales department. So moving on to a different theme that will keep the line moving is a very smart idea. And I believe you're right that they have a few of these in their pocket that they can say, hey, we didn't sell as much as we could have on this. Yeah. So let's move to that. So, and I think the problem though, last year that I don't know if many people saw it in, in the forefront, but we had heard in the background, le buyers were kind of getting their pitchforks out because you're selling le product, well, that was already kind of guaranteed to a limited number. Now you're essentially doubling that number for, even though it's a different addition. And so the thing is, is like, you want to keep your le buyers happy. They're your upfront, they're essentially your pre-order money, which it's not technically pre-order because you're getting your game within like a month, right? Right. But they're more of a, they're a high and highly interested group. Correct. And they are willing to pay, really, my take is they're willing to overpay for a product to get the exclusivity. Yep. And so my assumption here is, is because as we fast forward, when we go to this Japanese black and white version, we do notice it's all the LE artwork. It is. Like the cabinet has been mirrored. So it's like, but it's pretty much the same except for Godzilla's name has been removed with a Japanese name put on. It's all black and white. My thought is, is they were planning releasing this as an LE, but after what happened in 2023, I bet they already had like zomb yeti had this all done. And they're like, you know what, we're just going to release this as a premium and mark it as a premium. And just because they didn't want more pitchforks, and in my opinion, it works out better for starting anyway, because then the premium, like this, they get more longevity out of this release as well. You can re-release it. Like Gomez said in the video is like, we will keep producing these as we have a demand for them. So because some people brought up like it's kind of weird that use the LE artwork and me personally, I can't like confirm or deny and Stern's never going to say yes or no. But my thought is this was originally supposed to be an LE release, but after the pitchforks came out last year, they're like, you know what, we'll call it a premium. So I think this is still going to happen going forward, but my suggestion is if you're going to do more of these, don't use the LE artwork for a premium package. You know what I'm saying? I don't see it as being a big deal. But the LE artwork versus the premium artwork, you could be right, this was a possibility for that. I'm not sure how far back. So when did the JP30 come out? August of 2023. Okay. So it was last year. Yeah. And then it came out in July. So it was literally like a month later. I did my research. I did it this time. You did. Good job. I'm on vacation. So I'm just shooting from the hip. But when was Godzilla released? Oh, of course you're going to ask me a question that I don't know the answer to. Just right. I want to say it was March of 21. Okay. So it's been three years. Yeah, I'm just wondering was it possible that they because they have done these alternative packages with under the premium banner before. Yeah, like Catwoman. Yeah. Catwoman in ACDC. But that is it. You do bring up a good point that maybe they originally thought, Hey, we could do this as another L E. But they also, because you're right, because of the pitchforks, they basically released a statement saying we are no longer releasing additional L E's. If we do alternative art packages, it will be under the premium banner. Yeah. So I just looked it up. It wasn't March 2021. It was September 2021. So I was only five months old. That's pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. You're a good Paul releases. The one thing to consider about these releases, though, is you're good bug flu in my mouth. The one thing to consider about these things, though, is that these are great options. The one thing that Stern is doing that I would argue other companies are not doing as well. And the main things that I could, that I could compare it to is something like Chicago gaming company. Yeah. Now you can look at. So the aliens have landed in Scott's back backyard at his vacation, I have no idea. They're seriously like a fire road that's next to it. So they must have something drive by. The one thing that Stern does really well is there is a there is a difference between a pro, a premium and an L E. But it is not an insurmountable chasm. So Stern makes Stern makes games quicker than anybody. We know that. The downside of Chicago gaming company is they have created a golf between their L E version and their special edition or whatever. That is way bigger than what a premium to an L E for Stern is. And in many ways, it's kind of dropped off the market for anything other than their L E. So if you and it's, it's a, they need to figure out a way of being able to make a lot of good versions of the game that are that don't feel like a second class version of the game. Because I don't feel a premium Stern is a second class version of the game. Do you? Yeah. I don't think so. If you look at like an attack from our special edition, you are very aware that it is not the same as the L E. Yeah, it's true. So finding that balance of, okay, this is an alternative presentation of the same product. Stern's actually really good at finding ways of doing that. And I, this is a great looking art package. I am, I still like the color, but I can see how the black and white would really make an impact. What are your thoughts on the black and white options? So honestly, I really like it. If it, if it wasn't for the fact that I had all the Stumbler mods installed in my Godzilla, along with a pinwoofer set and my, my Godzilla wasn't all decked out, I probably sell off my Godzilla to get the black and white. I just think it's that good looking. I think they did a really good job with this. I liked the black and white with the accents of red. It just, it, it looks really good. I, I'm a fan of it. I like the foil on the, like the foil looks great. Do you remember my iron man? Yeah. Yeah. The, the my iron man had the foil sides and it looked really good. Oh yeah. And that's the thing. And, and like Umed says, like you've got to see it to believe it kind of thing. Yeah. Like if you, if you looked at this project and seriously see one in person, you go, oh yeah. Like, and that's what I like. I mean, this is a premium product. So you're, you're, yeah. So overall, I think this was a very smart move. And it kind of leads me into, you know, we're talking about how, you know, Stern always has something in their back pocket. It sounds like they just renewed the license for Rush and they might be running the, they said they're going to run more of those. Do you see this coming? You know, I, yes, actually. And I know that sounds weird because the rush is, by all admission, Rush is a niche band. Okay. And it's, it was probably more of a passion project for John Borg. And maybe lineman sheets because they were huge fans of Rush and I'm a huge fan of Rush. So I, I appreciate that they made it. However, they didn't really make that many of them before they moved on. And so they had Rush and okay, what was the next game that came out after Rush? Yeah. That's a great question. You keep talking about, I'll, I'll pull it up. Yeah. I'm sorry. And then Rush was after Godzilla, which is where Rush won like Game of the Year or two. And then they're like, okay. And by the way, we, we stopped making up. But it was also a weird year where it was a pandemic time bond. So they went after Rush. Okay. Bond. And you would argue. October. Okay. It was like almost January. Yes. But it was still during these limit, you know, they were still under a lot of these restrictions. True. And they were, no, this is 2022. Yeah. Still, they were still trying to bounce back because there was a while where they were only releasing two games. Yeah. Well, you got to understand before Rush, that was Godzilla. So it can be like, they were just trying to keep up with that demand as well. So there was a ton of Godzilla's. So a combination of that, a combination of bond really was released before it was ready. And whether or not that was because of licensor or a timeline that they had to, there's, there's got to be a lot more to the story on to why they released it when they did. Yeah. But I think everyone was buying Godzilla, that that's what was going on. They didn't sell, I, people who wanted the full compliment, they bought the L.E. And I don't know how many people bought the premium. I just haven't seen that many of them. Of Godzilla or Rush? Of Rush. Okay. So I want to say I only did like one run, I really think of it, maybe two on the pros. So they could, they could definitely just crank those out and fulfill some small demand. Yeah. I don't think it's a huge demand, but it seemed like it was not adequately fleshed out. So my question is because Rush is very reminiscent of Borg's X-Men that was released like a decade ago or whatever. Right. Yeah. It's like a better version of X-Men. I had X-Men. I thought it was okay, but I didn't love it, but you know, Rush is a better version. It still kicks my butt and I'm frustrated by it, but yes. So Borg is rumored to be next in the pipeline. I know it's Borg or danger. That's the two. That's the coin we got. Yeah. They're coming. Yeah. So, and the rumor is that Borg is on X-Men 97, which is weird to me because like if you ended up free doing the X-Men like layout and just like re-releasing it as like a touched up version of the original X-Men, aren't you kind of doing that? Like Rush was his last, last release and then we do that again with X-Men. Do you think, do you think that's kind of weird? Do you think he's going to get blowback? Granted, we haven't seen anything, we don't know anything. It's the rumor. I'm going off of rumors and assumptions. And so I'm just like, it's a really weird strategy to release essentially same game twice. I'm scratching my head about the X-Men 97. If you're going to do a cartoon version of a big favorite, Batman Beyond is actually a Batman Beyond or is that the one where- No, the original Batman anime, it's serious. Yeah, the Batman anime series, that's what I mean. That's the one where Mark Hamill did the Joker voice. Yeah. So if you're going to choose a cartoon that is still relatable to other stuff, like a live action equivalency, I would have chosen that theme. I truly do not understand doing the X-Men 97 theme. Yeah. What we talked about this before, we know that Stern and Disney have a relationship. They do. And they tend to do Disney properties. It seems like once every 18 months, whether it's a re-release of an existing one they've already done or a new title. I mean, it's no secret. You go back to the pen side list on Stern. I mean, they just released Venom last year. And while we're talking X-Men, they've obviously done that and Star Wars is a Disney property and Avengers and Vanity Quest. Kate, is this possible a head fake though? Is this possible a head fake? And that they have leaked out that it's X-Men 96 or whatever- 97. 97. So the original series went for like five years in the 90s, and this is picking right up from the 90s series. Okay. However, there's a much better option with Wolverine character that's in the theaters right now. Well, in two weeks, but yeah, I get what you're saying. Yeah. I mean, there's a much better option. And having a Deadpool Wolverine, I get that. Yes. 100%. If this is being pushed by Disney, I imagine having a Wolverine Deadpool and you get Ryan Reynolds doing some cameo teaser for it. That is a home run. Home run. So I'm still skeptical that 97 is really the game. I will be the first to stand up and say, I was dead wrong if it ends up being X-Men 97, but that doesn't make sense to me. It really doesn't. Well, like I said, and with Wolverine and Deadpool, you're only paying for two likenesses. You're not paying for a huge cast. And really, I mean, like I said, it could be X-Men 97 and they're doing a whole new layout. I just thought, I thought it'd be really weird where they've agreed, they just announced that they're releasing Rush and say they do release a Borg in the next two, three months and it happens to be X-Men 97. I just find it would be really weird to be the exact same layout. Not exact same. I mean, there's some touches, some differences, but I mean, you're pretty close, but yeah. Another question, though, and we're getting into this, are people getting... Is the FOMO gone? And I would argue that these games, they have a longer shelf life, at least some of these games anyway. We see others that come and they're like, "Okay, we're selling them after five months or six months," and there are certain games that fall into that category. But there's a lot of people who are there buying their Elwins and they're staying on them. Yep. And in the secondary market, we were talking about this with Triple Drain the other day. I watched The Walking Dead modded into... looked great, 4,700s, what it was finally. That's where it was selling it. It did sell. I don't know if that's what they sold it at, but I doubt the buyer went higher, you know what I'm saying? So we're at least thinking 4,700. Right. And the chap is talking... And the chap is a 10-year-old game. Yeah. I'm even talking about the recent games. I mean, you're talking like Foo Fighters sold really well and then you saw a flood of them on the secondary market, Venom, sold okay. But you're seeing Venom's come on to the secondary market at quite competitive prices. Yeah. I saw one for 5,000 the other day, a pro. Yeah. Yeah. There's one that was like 7,000 and I thought that would be kind of fun, but then I have to look at my games that I have. And I... Okay. I have Jurassic Park. I have Godzilla. I have Rush. I have Iron Mate. You know, so I have all these games that I'm not planning on parting with. I also have all the CGC games. And so there's a question of where am I... I already have 8 games in my garage stacked up as storage. Like, which one is going to supplant that? And I don't see with some of these games, I just don't see them doing that. So part of me wonders if they're new games. And I would argue with Godzilla, I also feel like I have a lot of really great Elwin games. And I know Godzilla is a great game. But do I need a... Sorry, Jaws. Do I need a Jaws and a Godzilla and a Jurassic Park? Yes. Okay. All right. I don't know. I seriously Jaws. So, I have this theory. And maybe this is a terrible theory. I don't know if someone at Stern would get mad at me for saying this. But I have... The theory. We can talk whatever you want. Yeah. Let's talk theories. I really feel like Elwin's taking a stab at some of the best games ever made. So Godzilla is reminiscent of Immediately for Madness because of the skyscraper and bashing it and yadda yadda yadda. But it's a better flow. It's a better game, in my opinion. I feel like Jaws is his stab at Attack for Mars. You have a... It's almost up the middle, but it's one of those shots that come back at you. But with the captive ball, it's a little more forgiving than the stand-ups on Attack for Mars than you have the shield drops or the boat goes up and you have the ship in the back where you have the shark that comes out. And then the shots are very... Not... I want to say fan-ish, but they're more in front of you, like on Attack for Mars. You do have the side shot and the quick shot feels so satisfying when you hit it. That's where you shoot to the left from the mini flipper, into the gap like on Adam's family or no good gophers. So my thought process is like, he's one-upping the best games that have ever been made. And Jaws is up there. It's fantastic. It really, really is. So that's my opinion. So... Okay. I'm sticking to it. Time to sew was a revolves, I guess. Exactly. Yeah. The... Okay. That's actually an interesting point. I didn't really think of it that way, but it would make sense. And Keith certainly has the background in that. I also... Okay. I wonder though, because I still have medieval madness and Attack for Mars. And the difference for me is because I've kept the flippers, drop flippers, on Attack for Mars. Okay. And have you... Did you keep them that way or did you level them out? So I want to say, I leveled them out because I thought they were supposed to be leveled out. But then you sent me an interview, I think, it was with Brian Eddy and Slamtail where he's like, "No, they're supposed to be dropped. They're not supposed to be leveled out." Yeah. I think I'm that much easier when you have them level out. I see. It is. And actually, it's hard for me to go back because I have an evil madness in Tech for Mars next to each other. And I have to recalibrate because the shots aren't where you think they are after you've done medieval madness because they're in your traditional fan areas. And with Attack for Mars, you really have to trap up a little bit because those shots up the middle are kind of hard and you end up getting a lot more side to side action. And we didn't bring this up, but in John Wick, they're drop flippers, too. Yep. And we did ask Elliot about that and we forgot to bring it up on our John Wick review. But those are, that is an interesting element that does mix things up and makes games feel different. I wonder if John Wick could be easier if you leveled them out. So much would try that and let us know. If you have a John Wick, level them out, tell us what you think. So, because that game is pretty hard as is. It is. It is. And my friend is just moving and he has his Ellie boxed up, so I will get more time on it now. So speaking of Stern news, Greg Ferris, the art director, he's been the art director for years now. I mean, the dude's a legend. Like, if you don't, if you're not familiar with Greg's art packages, you are familiar with Greg's art. Yeah, you are. Yeah. Think of any sort of game that came out in the 80s. And it's Greg. Yeah. Well, okay. He did all the L-virus. He worked on medieval madness. He worked on Monster Bash. I mean, Walking Dead, just all these amazing art packages, Fathom, you know, Fathom that's revered for its art package. He worked on that. I mean, seriously, go to Pinsight or go to your IPDB and just type in Greg Ferris. Yeah. Okay. I just did. So revenge from Mars. You got Jackpot. Harlem's Globe Trotters. I mean, this is from '79. He's earned retirement. And yeah. Oh my gosh. There's an awesome picture on pinball news with him having like a per mullet that he stole from like 1972. Yeah. It's awesome. So, man, it's a stern, it's going to be hard to fill those shoes. They did hire a Sebastian Napoli, I apologize if I've slaughtered your last name, but the dude kind of, they didn't do such a flattering picture for the stern letter they sent out. Okay. Okay. It's not bad. He just looks like a bouncer that's going to throw you out of the club for going too far. He looks pissed off like, why are you taking my picture? Let me break. I'm going to break that camera. Yeah. You don't need another drink. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. You know, it's interesting though. You have to transition to the younger generation and he's definitely significantly younger than Greg. Yeah. Yep. So, but you know, it's it's good. Congratulations to him. Congratulations to Greg on a well-earned retirement. Yep. Definitely. I wouldn't be shocked though if there's still some calls made to say, great, what's your thoughts on this? Like, I don't think he's 100% retired, but I mean, none of them really are 100% retired. Yeah. That's true. That's true. I think the games and artwork, Labyrinth, Barrels of Fun just announced that they've sold 822 of these games. So, they're making a total of 1100. They're saying those are only about 278 spots left. If you haven't ordered your game, you can still order it. And if you order it now, you can get it by January or February, which is impressive. So we're coming up. I think they're kind of warning everyone because I don't know if they'll go back. I doubt they'll make the extra. I'd say they only sell like 800 or 900, so I doubt they're going to make the extra 200. So it's going to be one of those things like once they're done, they're done. Yeah. And maybe later on, if they keep up the transparency and the way that they're building stuff, they could be a force to be reckoned with moving ahead and they might do a stern and be able to go back to the well, but there's no guarantees or promises. It just depends what the future holds, right? Yeah. So this has been a bright spot into some of these companies that have come up. And at least so far, it seems like they're able to manufacture to meet demand. And it seems like they are fulfilling their obligations and they don't feel overextended. Now, this is just a casual observer just looking at their business, how they're selling, okay? And I'm hoping that they can keep that going. I'm not sure what sort of investment capital they were able to get, what sort of investors they have, what sort of cash flow they have, but it makes a big difference when you have someone who's willing to invest the money to seed a startup company because that's what it takes when you're actually making something, you need millions of dollars. Yeah. This is not a garage, okay, you could argue Spooku is more of a garage company, but for the most part, it takes millions of dollars to get a product off the line and you can start selling them to recouping that price. Yeah. So I'm hoping that they are able to continue that trajectory. And it'll be interesting to see what their next game is, right? I agree. And really, Jersey Jack pinball went through this, where they actually had a really good company showing with Wizard of Oz, it was taken a while to get out, and then they ran into trouble with the sequel with Hobbit. And that's when the investors came in and basically had to take over the company. So here's to hoping that things are continuing to go well. And from all reports, labyrinth seems to be a fun game to play and people really are connecting with theme. I really enjoyed it. It was a very, I got to play it last October at pinball expo. I thought it was a really good game. Just, if you haven't played it yet, try to find one locally, get your hands on it. It is a really good game. It is very reminiscent of a 90s, Bally Williams with an updated code for a modern era. It just, it's got that nostalgia, it's got that magic, seriously, like barrels of fun is doing it right. And I'm excited to see what's going to happen with them going into the future. Okay, I know there's one here in Utah, I'm going to text him and see if he's got it yet. Let's see, do you... So while you're looking that up, I, we'll come back to barrels of fun with that information here in a second. Okay. But one startup company that has been in the news the last couple of weeks because some the proverbial poop has hit the fan for the wrong reasons, for the wrong reasons. So an unaffiliated company, two Haggis pinball, sorry, an unaffiliated Australian who lives near the company's factory started posting some stuff about how Haggis is only really producing one, maybe two fathoms a week right now. They're still promising distributors, they've built several games. They've owned them for months now, just the communication has all but dropped off. People are trying to communicate with them to see what's going on. People paid him full year plus ago. Things are starting to look bad. And I feel bad for a couple different people. It's like, I don't know, Zach many went and talked about his affiliation with Haggis because he's the only distributor in America, if I'm correct? And so he's had some issues because they ain't built all the fathoms when they said they're going to start making centaur and Zach had promised, if you put a deposit down, if Haggis goes under, I will pay you back your deposit, which is a thousand dollars. Which, by the way, Zach doesn't have because Haggis has the deposit. That's what a deposit is, you are sending the deposit to the company as a request to buy that. And it's a commitment. So Zach is really the pass through on this one. Yeah. So it just, it makes me wonder what's going on. I know that we've reached out personally to Haggis to do an interview and we were redirected and it's our fault, we never followed back up. I mean, Damian really, it's hard because I think what their thorn in their side has been was they were super transparent when they first came out and now it's just crickets, right? Like there's no one knows what's going on. I'm hearing very mixed reviews on the product that's being received. We know we have personal friends that have bought Haggis product and they loved it and the quality's been great. But I'm also hearing people that we know that have received a fathom game and the playful is warped and there's quality issues there and just it doesn't make any sense, like in my opinion, like I get like there's not going to be a hundred percent, everything's perfect every time it comes out of factory, right? Actually it does make sense. Okay. It makes sense. It might mean that this is a company that is struggling and is barely keeping their nose above water. Yeah. And so it's all the hallmarks of what happens when a company goes through crisis. They promise timelines and they just blow right through them. Yeah. When they produce something, it is not to a standard that people expect. And we have seen this before and this feels very much like this definitely feels like the Big Lebowski thing where it was like a game and then I'm shocked that Big Lebowski has been able to keep going and keep it in different versions of things because it was the, hey, we're going to do the Pinbot 2.0, all these different versions to raise money because they ran out and any company has standard operating costs. So just think of this in your home. You every month, you're paying your mortgage, you're paying your health insurance, you're paying electricity, you're paying all those things. And so those, you have to at least make that money to keep your home operational, right? And the only way for a business to do that is one, have angel investors who are okay with funding that cost or you can do it by selling games. So they are, and we have seen this with other companies too, American Pinball from my point of view is in the same category where they're not selling enough to qualify under self-sufficiency. And so there has to be someone who's paying those bills. Well, and I've listened to a click to gamers because Dennis gave some more insight as well, but these, these fathoms were all supposed to be done by the end of 2023. Yeah. That's not a great sign. It just, here's the thing, we've talked about this before. We've talked about it with, with Deeproot we've talked about with the startup companies. If you feel comfortable investing your money into these companies, like it's, it's like gambling. It's a total risk. It's a total risk. It's a total risk. Yes. If you're fine putting your thousand dollars on the table at the Blackjack table, knowing that you're going to lose it more, you know, if you go with the mindset like, I'm probably going to lose this, but if it's fulfilled, or if I make my, you know, make my, my bet and I win, then awesome. And so I get the people that have got these products and whatnot, and they're not happy with the product itself. I totally get that as far as this becomes a big old mess. I'm not a lawyer. I don't, I don't construe anything I say as legal advice, but I do know like a thousand bucks in the world of, well, our world nowadays, sadly, is not a ton of money for an individual household. Yeah, that's probably, that can be a paycheck for a low income person, but the fact of the matter is, if you went to the court system and said, Hey, I gave this company a thousand dollars and I have not seen my problems. You're going to have to go to small claims. You're not going to go to bigger court unless if you convinced everyone that gave deposits to do a class action, a class action lawsuit, which it's probably not going to be enough money for them to even take a class action lawsuit across international lines. Yeah. Good luck. And that's the other problem too. Yeah, this was all across international lines, like, and your biggest markets in America. So how does that all apply? Like, gather a country that we are friendly with. So I bet there's some, some working with there as well, but it just in the case of Deeproot, at least they were in Texas, like an SEC got involved, so, you know, the government was getting involved and the money was right, but that might take a decade, but in fairness, haggis is not deep root. Correct. Deeproot was a hundred percent a Ponzi scheme like that, that was, I shouldn't be comparing deeper to haggis because haggis has produced product, but you could argue this is closer to zidware. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Where it's, I think, I just got bigger than his abilities, his abilities did not match his ambition. Yes. That's a good one. And you could argue the same thing about any company who tried it. And you could argue with JJ P at, you know, when they transitioned from Wizard of Oz and they went to Hobbit, that their abilities did not match their ambition. Yeah. Yeah. The, however, on technology, there is a term that is always used, it's called the early adopter. Yeah. So basically, if you want to be one of the first to get, you know, the, and I'm going way back, the first to get a DVD player, the first to get an iPhone, the first to get an Apple watch, the first Apple watch, I actually really wanted it. And I was an early adopter and it cost a thousand dollars for the, because I got a nice band with it. Yeah. And you could probably have bought the same watch for like 300 bucks. Okay. I was willing to pay that because I just wanted the, I actually wanted the band. But if you are willing to take that risk on an unproven company, I mean, Apple was a proven company. Yeah. So if you're, if you're willing to take this risk on an unproven company who doesn't have a track record, who you're willing to say, Hey, I, I trust you enough to give you some money, then there is some accountability on your part. I'm sorry. There's some accountability to say that this was something that you either should have done more research on or you should have said, I'm going to wait. Yeah. And like I'm willing to take the risk or I'm willing to wait. And so when you get burned on that and then you claim that you have been wronged, there's something about me that says you, you didn't know it was a risk, right? Yeah. And I think sadly, well, I was just saying, sadly, there were people who were going after and I know this is, I'm just going to refer you to Zack's talk on the pinball show where he's the distributor and he had, you know, the, the pin side mob came after him and was talking about, well, they should do this, this, this. And the bottom line is he actually had on there, Hey, this is a non refundable deposit that we anticipate the building is until X amount until 20, the end of 2024. Well, last time I checked, we're still in 2024 halfway through. Yeah. And so if people are complaining that they're not getting their product and there's a breach of contract, well, you're still in the window. Yeah. Now it is a possible that, you know, maybe Zack is feeling some sort of a Zack announced that he's going to make good on these because he doesn't want the negative publicity. All right. That's the bottom line is acts of business and he doesn't want the negative publicity. I would argue though, this isn't necessarily Zack's issue. This is a combination of an unrealistic expectation by someone who bought or put, put down the down payment. And so I'll, I'll just refer you to that if you're really curious about that situation. But I just go back to, you know, Nick Lane has said it on Buffalo pinball so many times. Yeah. Okay. No pinball machine is unobtainable legitimately unless you want pinball circus. Okay. Then build it yourself, but no machine is unavailable. If you, if there's a game that you're like, I really want that game, you can save up and buy it, but it's best to save up and buy an existing pinball machine. So if you are, if you're concerned about any sort of manufacturing promises, and at this point in pinball, the empty promises of a cool looking game that is anticipated to be built, it, it does not hold much to me anymore. So save up your money, wait till it's made. Okay. You may spend $1,000 more than what you thought you were going to make if they ended up making a good. Yeah. For the most part, you're still giving like an interest free loan to these people to for a possibility. And how long did Dutch pinball take to fulfill those orders? Ten years. Yeah. Okay. Even in, I'm talking even the ones that fulfilled their orders going back to Big Bang Bar, the Gene Cunningham guys that they finally got their, their game, but you, you question at what cost? Yeah. Yeah. So if you're willing to, to wander in these unfamiliar territories, then you have to accept that there are risks associated with it. I hope that Haggis is able to recoup what's, what was going on and to reboot their brand, but it smells like the end of a company. That's what it feels like. It does. And I feel bad too for like, so, you know, his act was also being accused of promoting Haggis because he has Martin Robbins with Final Round on the pinball network. And I'm like, it's the same situation with Steve Bowden when he worked at Deeproot. Steve had no control over what Robert was doing. Honestly, he's more of a victim than he is a, you know, a perpetrator. And I feel the same for like, I feel bad for Martin because I know he reads these emails like, where's my game? What's, you know, what's going on? And he's like, I just work here, like, you need to talk to Damien. And so I just, it's just, it's a crappy situation on a round. No one wants to be in it, you know, from, from Damien to the people that bought the games. The other thought process I had to is, does some of the blame of all this kind of lay at the feet of planetary pinball? If you're not familiar with planetary pinball, they hold all the licensing for Valley Williams Games. So if CGC makes medieval madness again, they renew the license through planetary pinball. The agreement is this planetary provides the parts to CGC to make the game. And then CGC makes the game, or like in the case of Padredi, they've contracted through planetary to make the games. It's actually not Padredi. This can contract. We'll talk about that here in a minute. But, okay. Okay. The planetary manufacturer, the parts. So yes, they make like, so planetary manufacturers, the parts, they ship them to the assembly area. Let's just say Haggis now. So they ship them to Haggis to make the, to assemble the game, is that? So they make William, Valley Williams specific parts. So okay. Like the cabinet is not going to be a Valley Williams specific part. They'll have a cabinet maker make that. That's why CGC was involved originally with Stern. And when they made the first medieval madness is through Stern, Churchill cabinet was the one that made those cabinets. Right. And so, but like Rudy's head, that is a very specific part. And planetary makes those parts. I don't know if they make like, all the way down to the coil stop. You know what I'm saying? Sure. But I do know that they, they are obviously going to make the critical elements. There are critical elements. Okay. Yes. So that's how planetary works on that side. They hold the license and they make specific parts. I wonder if some of the, like I said, some of the blame is, I'm not going to fault planetary for wanting to have as many manufacturers as they can produce their product because the more they're making parts, the more that their games are being made, that's more money in their pocket. And so if you diversify, you only bring more cash in, right? But did they jump the gun with Haggis? They did see that Kouts was produced and it was, it was a well-made game. So when you throw a Valley Williams title behind this company, it brings some legitimacy to that company as well. So I guess my point being is does planetary hold any responsibility for what is going on because they threw their weight behind Haggis maybe before they were ready to actually start running? They were barely crawling and, and, and planetary saw them as walking, ready to run. And what are your thoughts? It certainly is on the owner of planetary to maintain brand quality. Okay. So it, this is where I've, I have argued for years that Stern is by far the biggest volume manufacturer, you know, of pinball out there. Like they, they're the ones who make a solid, durable product that can go on location and they still have a relatively friendly entry price point, okay? So it would be, if I were looking at it from planetary, I would actually just approach Stern and say, Hey, what about doing a, a joint venture here where you, we can manufacture these games, you have the, the capacity to make a ton of these games on a second line. There really shouldn't be anything other than quality control. It's not like we're developing anything, these are existing products. And Stern could make them 10 times faster than anybody else. Yeah. And that's what I would have done. However, with businesses, a lot of times you try to leverage an advantage for you. And I would, this is me totally speculating, but theorizing that planetary approach Stern and said, Would you be interested in this Stern would say, yes. However, this is what we are going to pay you for the, you know, for the, your percentage, your license, whatever. Yeah. And I'm assuming, again, total speculation. I'm assuming planetary said, we want a bigger cut. And they said, okay. Well, go look somewhere else. So they teamed up with CGC, CGC is giving them a bigger cut. We know that because the reason why the cactus Canyon SE plus comes with a topper is because widely speculated that planetary takes a bigger cut off the extras than it does off the actual product. Yeah. So that's a little bit of an end still. That's a little bit of an end around to get a little better, better revenue stream for a Chicago gaming company. Yeah. But I'm sure that we know Chicago gaming company is not the fastest manufacturer. They have quality. For the most part, I know some people have had issues with their cactus Canyon, but they have not been able to do the volume. Yeah. So planetary gets itchy and wants to do something else. And so they're looking for alternative options. And would that be haggis? Would that be spooky? Would that be America? You know, all these other people. But this is a little bit on planetary because you have the market leader as a potential. And again, I don't even know if Stern would be interested. This is me just looking at it from just a business analyst. But it would be in their best interest to approach Stern, say, hey, we love pinball. You love pinball. You can make a lot of pinball machines. We obviously did this because you made the medieval madness ones on your line. How about we do a joint venture again and we can get white water coming out. We can do, we can do, well, we, and we'll get into funhouse, but we can do, we can do these other games that are coming out. And we can do it faster. But think about it, medieval madness, where the remake is like eight years old now. Is it now? It was originally released in 20, well, not, not 2016, that was 2015 was the original release date of the very first run. Okay. Okay. So that's almost a decade. Yeah. Not almost a decade for, if you look at planetary and if you're looking at the four remake, that's four remakes of an existing game in almost 10 years. Yeah. And, and with medieval madness, you can sell, you could sell 3000 medieval madness games today. It is still my kid's favorite game. It's still my kid's favorite game. Yep. So you could sell those. So the fact that they are partnering with companies that do not have the manufacturing capabilities is puzzling to me. Yeah. Yeah. So that's why I think moving forward, we're going to see some changes up with planetary. I think they're going to be a little more hesitant with who they use. And we'll get into that here in a second with Pendredi, but I just, I agree with you. I think planetary needs to take a little bit of the blame with this Haggis situation because I don't know if Haggis was ready and they've shown they weren't and the product explains itself. They have shown that they are not up for the manufacturing. Well, not only that, but I think planetary should have pumped the brakes with centaur. If they could have, I don't know exactly the situation. Well, but then again, we're, as again, with Dutch where they were like, Hey, let's do, we're going to do bride of pinbot 2.0 as a full game, we're out of money and we're trying to raise some more money with some. It's a little bit of a shell game where they need some money to, because they don't have the startup capital and they're trying to supercharge the, the first ones so they can make it up on the back end and it almost always is a bad idea. So this leads me into, because we've been beating around the bush then, right? So Hagg's planetary made a mistake moving forward with, with Pendredi making funhouses with a company that's never made games before outside of 2.0 kits. Sure. They've never made, they are using a well established manufacturer that's made pinball brothers games, so they're using the same manufacturer as pinball brothers, but are, do we have concerns as, as we have in the past with, with companies that are start, they're essentially startups at this point. What do you think? Yes. Okay. They are making a mistake. Well, no. Do we have concerns? Yeah. Yeah. Of course we have concerns. Okay. So you're doing similar things, now, I will say that at least Pendredi has more manufacturing credentials than Hagg's did, okay? And, and you could argue that even like Chicago gaming company, I, I still cannot figure out Chicago gaming company, why they, you know, on a, on a 10 speed gearbox, they never go above 2. They never figured it out. Yeah. Okay. And so is a pot now, you're going with Pendredi, which is, Pendredi is, it's located right in the heart of pinball manufacturing, right? Yeah. Italy. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So you're, so you're also dealing with outside of your typical options for the talent in pinball. It's all in Chicago, at least all the people who are, have a lot of history. You know, this, this intrinsic history of making pinball. It's all in Chicago. So yeah, you're, you're going outside of Chicago. You're going outside of the country again. Is it possible? Sure. And, and everything we say is true until someone proves us wrong. Yeah. This is all speculation. Yeah. Until someone proves us wrong. And so I'm hoping that Pendredi is a better option and they can step up and manufacture to the level that we can expect. Well, and not only that, you're shipping product from Reno, Nevada, to Italy, to have it be made and manufactured to ship it back. Well, I'm wondering if it's passed through. A lot of this stuff has to be made in China. So you're making it in China under their license and you're saying, I doubt it goes to Reno and then goes, gotcha. So just ship it directly to the bank. I doubt it's, it's like a drop ship thing. I don't mean they're making these in Reno. I just, I don't know. That's why I'm, so I got the molten stuff there. Yeah. But is it possible that they, that this can be the, you know, the startup that breaks the trends? Yeah. It is absolutely possible. And, and we know that the pinball company is involved in this and they, they have a history of that. There's been public picture shown of the CEO. Public picture. This is not behind the scenes. Yes. Yes. Yes. So we, we know that they're involved, however, depending on how involved is a different, is a different question. So my understanding is, cause if, if you're familiar with pinball company, the owners originally bought licenses for Domino's and Jetson and then they had Spooky make these games. They did. Yes. And my understanding is it's a very similar situation, may not be a one for one, but a very similar situation that pinball company is doing with planetary pinball. Okay. So, and this is, pinball company has been around for years and years and years now. And it's, it's a, it's a big company. Like pinball company is not, this is not a mom and pop shop. This is a big pinball distributor. And, and obviously they've, they've done this route before with Spooky. So they know what they're looking for quality wise and building. My assumption is if, if the CEO was seen over in Italy with funhouses and the people making them, I'm assuming he's going to be his bend to the manufacturing warehouse before and so at least looking at it. Right. Yeah. That's why I'm trying to get to is, is I think there's a little less stress once you realize that like, there's actually some people, there's some over watchers on this one. It's not just Pendretti and making these games and shipping them out. There's, there's a quality check that's going on with people that have done this before. Yeah. And when I say that should we be concerned and my, my statement was just yes. Yeah. The only reason why I say yes is because we still don't know, right? We still have yet to have one of these companies that rises up and can rival Stern in production. And you could argue, okay, I, I intentionally left JJP out. JJP is probably solidly in that the second group, like they're Stern who's, who's volume, volume, and then you have a lot of solid manufacturers making a good amount. And really JJP is probably the, the top of that list of making a solid game and still able to produce it in volume, not the same volume, but you can produce it in volume. So that, that could be another option, but JJP seems to be more interested in kind of a, a slightly more expensive boutique game. Yeah. It seems to be their, so I'm hoping that this is finally that next level of, okay, we've learned from other people who just didn't have the manufacturing capabilities. And Pendredi does. And so that they, they do have a good price point, right? Yeah, they do. Yeah. They have a good price point. And so that, that certainly has of all of the startups that are making pinball machines, this has the most potential, I wouldn't say by far, but probably equivalent to like barrels of fun. Yeah. Like they, right now they seem to have been, they have the potential of being, of being solid. Yeah. I agree. I, I'm excited for the future for Pendredi and, and what it holds with these, because, you know, funhouses, the first in a pipeline, right? Yeah. If this goes well and it's going super well, I assume that there's going to be more value Williams remakes coming out of them. So. Sure. So it's, it's going to be interesting. The future is going to be, it's, it's bright, but like, like we've, it's, we've talked about this whole episode. It's kind of like a roller coaster of like, you've got stern that's very reliable. Like the biggest complaint is, and we hear it, I've heard it for the decade I've been in this hobby. Played Phil Dimpling. Well, you've got a metal ball and one you get taken to do every, and actually, George Gomez, who is a total superstar, someone had posted that and he actually replied with a detailed analysis of it's a hardness rating. This is the hardness. Even like with mathematical stuff, you know, this is a ball. This is wood. This is what happens to every single pinball machine that's ever been made. Yeah. And you know, and, and yeah, it, it just seems kind of funny. Like, okay, build them out of plastic then, and then they'll shatter as opposed to dimple. Cause yeah, if, you know, it's, if you don't, yeah, there's something about being pliable and malleable versus shattering, cause that's what happens to glass, right? You can make it out of glass. There will be no dimpling, but if the ball hits it wrong, it'll pulverize it. Exactly. Well, and honestly lately, granted Stern did have a playfield issue there for a little bit. They did. And they have, they have. Yeah. They're ghosting. Yeah. Yeah. And I know Nick Lane had quite the, uh, the rant on Buffalo and more power to them do that. Honestly, it's spot on. So a lot of us were thinking as a consumer is like, you shouldn't be just saying out planet play field blanks. You should be saying us how populate play fields. Yeah. But Stern doesn't seem to be having play field issues anymore. The biggest complaint right now is a coil stop. And honestly, if anything's going to be breaking in a pinball machine, you can fix a coil stop. Yeah. It's two screws. You pull the old one out, you put the new one in and it's got to be like, cause when we went to Stern and in May, they said everything that they produce, they have two suppliers for her. So that way, if one can't provide the other one, you know, and all that jazz. I half wonder with the coil stops, if they bought like a billion of them, considering like every freaking Stern game at least has five between the auto launcher, the, the least two to three flippers, and then there's going to be some coil mix in there as well. So it's like every game at least has four to five and then you're producing thousands of these games, like, I wonder if Stern is like, if you give us, if we saw it by a billion of them, you give us a discount and they're like, well, we can't throw all these away. We know that they're not like the best coil stops in the world. Yeah. But they're not terrible, right? Full function for the most part and really in a home environment, okay, I don't get the same sort of wear and tear on my machines as a location does. Yeah. I don't. I, I play maybe 50 to 100 games a month, you know, it's, it's not the same as location. And that's all of them. That's all, all 10 of my games inside put my point being is like, we've talked about like, if you want quality and you want reassurance, you're going to get your game, you're probably going to go with Stern, but we've also went down the valleys of like, you are gambling with these startup companies. I think there's less, a lot less gamble with Pedretti from hearing behind the scenes and I'm going to leave that up to pinball company. If they want to talk about that stuff, it's all positive. But like I said, I'm not the information person to be leaking that. I'm just going off of what we've seen publicly and commenting on it. And then we've talked about Haggis where it's like, you know, it is what it is. And I don't know, pinball is a very fascinating world overall. And I think, I think if you go into the mindset, like you were saying, Scott earlier, if there's any game that's already been produced, may start going used first. If you're really worried about or concerned about receiving your game, I really think, I know that when we were going through the deep root, the deep root, deep root thing, we did have a gentleman that messaged out to us and explained his situation. He said, I came into a decent amount of money. I thought Rosal looked really good. I put down my deposit, knowing I could probably lose this. But I wanted to take that risk because this was something I wanted to support and invest in. And if I get the game great, if not, I think that's the mindset you need to go on. If you're going to go with these startup companies and let's just, they're proving themselves like barrels of fun and Pedretti, who's already shipping out funhouses. Yeah, so to be fair, we listed a lot, at least I listed a lot of people who have started and had significant issues. I will emphasize that Pedretti and barrels of fun seem to have the most positive potential of any company that we've seen in the last 15 years. And that 15 years does not count JJP because obviously, JJP is a real company. It seems like their trajectory is on the rise. Yeah. So I would be more likely to buy those than I would of the other ones. I agree. So I guess that's our roundabout message. If you take something away from this episode today, know it be. Okay, if you take something away from the message is like, if you want a pinball machine, go buy one that that is existing. If you have disposable income and you're willing to take a risk on a potential theme or company that you are emotionally connected to, then go ahead. However, realize that there is a risk involved and some companies are riskier than others. Yeah. And then there's some companies that help kind of alleviate that risk like our friends back in the coal money at flipping out when they don't even need to be taking that risk. And really, I feel bad for Zach and Nicole for what they have gone through. Zach is, because he's a business, he's going to try to take a risk on some of these companies that you don't know how it's going to pan out. But with that risk, I think some people mistake every company as the same guarantee, the Stern or JJP would make, and that's just not the case. And that's, you know, it's hard, it's hard to thread that needle. Okay, I want to wrap this up with our content creator of the episode, Erica's pinball journey. If you've not checked out Erica, she's on Instagram, she's on TikTok, I want to say she's on YouTube as well, amazing videos. Her background is actually in film, the way that we got to meet her was, I think it was Expo last year where she talked to me, maybe before that, but she said, I met her at the Stern tour, but you saw her expo here before. The content creator that Colin from Kineticis was nice enough to set up at Expo, I got to meet her there. And she said that she very much appreciated our episode with the directors of the Roger Sharp movie because that gave some insight behind the scenes into an industry she works in, she just loved it. Her episodes, her little videos and stuff are fantastic. Seriously, go check her out, go subscribe, definitely worth your time. And I like it because it's a different view on pinball. I'm not going to lie, like a lot of these podcasts, we kind of are talking heads and we talk the news or we talk, you know, yada yada. Erica's going from the single of like pizzazz and like showing off pinball, but like almost like a meme creator, essentially, you know what I'm saying, like short clips of wonderful stuff. So if you haven't checked her out, Erica's pinball journey, Scott, if you're going to buy our product where you're going, you can go to silver bar swag. We have some awesome shoes and I wore my shoes just the other day. They're fun. If you want one of our original hats, you can contact us too. We can figure that out. But we have some hats there too, including the loser kid pinball in an awesome font that looks very similar to another one. Yes. Yes. So I just wanted to show off my shirt I'm wearing today. If you see that, if you're on YouTube, it is the original, it says at the very bottom and you can't read it, but it says insert Dennis's face here. This was from the original This Week in Pinball podcast with Zach and Dennis. And yeah, it's still one of my favorites because it's got like a bunch of their quotes on it, you know, trending up by, by, by foreign creasal clone, you know, just stuff like that. Nice. I think they even touted it as limited edition or whatnot. They didn't sell a ton of them, but it's everything's limited eventually. But it was also from, was it from silver ball swag? Yeah, because the ball swag was combined with this week in pinball. So yeah, this is a silver ball swag shirt. You can't get it anymore, but like I said, if you want to, like Scott said, if you want to get our stuff, silverball swag.com/loserkid also, if you want to hit us up on any of the socials, Facebook, Instagram, X, threads, yeah, it's going to be at loser kid pinball, same with our YouTube. So if you haven't subscribed, go ahead, do so, comment, yadda, yadda, yadda. We appreciate a lot of the interaction we've been receiving lately. And it's amazing. It's amazing. We've been doing this for over five years now. And it just seems like every year, we go up with stuff of just the interaction, whatnot. Yeah. Thank you again. If you haven't gotten your room yet for pinball expo, I was just told two days ago they opened up a new block. So there are some limited amount of hotel rooms available in the conference center right now. That's nice. So you better jump on that as you hear this seriously run to pinball expo's website and you can click on it and you get the group rate and everything. So do that before they're all gone. Anything out Scott before we leave? You know, I'm interested, let me know if you are buying the black and white Godzilla. And if you're interested in the Godzilla accessories, because they said there's going to be special black and white accessories as well. Yep. Anyway, play pinball, be good to each other, and thanks for listening. Bye. Bye. (upbeat music) [BLANK_AUDIO]