The Cārvāka Podcast

Being Hindu In Bangladesh

In this podcast, Kushal speaks with Deep Halder about his book, "Being Hindu in Bangladesh: The Untold Story." In light of the recent events in Bangladesh and the attacks on Hindus and other minorities, this book becomes an extremely important tool in understanding the overall situation.

Follow Deep: Twitter: @deepscribble Book: https://amzn.in/d/4xtGwup Articles: https://theprint.in/author/deep-halder/

#bangladesh #sheikhhasina #hindugenocide

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Duration:: 1h 17m
Broadcast on:: 12 Aug 2024
Audio Format:: mp3

I want to start today's podcast by acknowledging that I have a sore throat ladies and gentlemen. So if I sound weird to you in this podcast, I mean honest, my throat has just gone haywire as they say, but I'll give you a brief background. So a while ago, my dear friend Ami Granatra had reached out to me and told me, "Kushal turkoya book kavarkat nieh." It's a really good book. And it's my fault. So first of all, I want to apologize to Deep before I introduce him. It's my fault. I just could not get to read the book because I have one rule, everybody knows that in the Charvak podcast, whenever a book is covered, it's 100% certainty that I must read the book. I just couldn't read the book, that's why I couldn't cover it. And then I was like with what's happening right now, I think this book becomes the most important book to cover because this book gives everyone a historical explanation of what's happening in Bangladesh for the past one week. And the book's name is Being Hindu in Bangladesh, The Untold Story. And obviously, as you see on the screen, I have the author Deep Haldar with me, Deep. Thank you very much. And once again, Deep, sorry. Yeah, which is right, I'm not the book, but I'm going to go. Thank you, Kushal. Thank you for having me. And I think this is a good time to, it's not a good time generally, but it's a good time to revisit the book. It came out in December last year, but given what's happening currently in Bangladesh, I think it's a book to pick up because some research has gone into it. We have been on the ground. Me and my co-author Abhishek Bishwas are talking to a whole host of people that cross Bangladesh and documenting their stories. So yeah, given what's happening in Bangladesh currently, I think it's an important book. So Deep in your book, you start from North Haali. No, 46. Yeah. That's 1946. Now lay the background. Why did you start from that specific movement, like that particular date? What happened on that day? Why did you decide to choose that and why did you decide to research about this book? Like what were the personal reasons? Okay. Second question first, I was in a Northern newsroom. I was heading India Today's website. And so I was sitting there at Durga Puja time and most Bengalis, fellow Bengalis were away. But I couldn't be aware. I was heading the newsroom and I was, and suddenly I saw this, you know, series of news articles on attacks on Bangladeshi Hindus, okay, over a piece of which we later found out over a piece of fake news. This is the year 2021. So October. So the news was that on a statue of Lord Hanuman, a copy of the Quran has been placed. And it was blasphemy and, you know, the news spread through WhatsApp and through social media and it started, the riots started in Kamila and, you know, temples were brought down. Mundabs were set on fire, houses were attacked, but, you know, it spread across many districts of Bangladesh. So I was sitting there and felt very deeply personal because Bangladesh is not my story, but it's the story of my parents, in 1946-47, my father's family and my mother's family, they came from what was then his Bengal to, you know, the western part of Bengal, which is today West Bengal, and, you know, which became first is Pakistan and is now Bangladesh. So I was born to a refugee family. And every time I see attacks and this 2021 was the not the first time in my adult life or professional career, which when I saw read about such attacks, but it felt deeply personal because, you know, here I was already in a newsroom and trying to, you know, put out stories on what was happening in Bangladesh. So I knew this guy, Abhishid Biswas is a very good academic, you know, he has just done his, at that time, just completed his PhD on partition history of Dalit Hindu survivors from what is now Bangladesh. And so we decided to go to Bangladesh to see for ourselves what's happening. We wanted to write a research paper. So it would take us a year to, you know, to get time together and finally make that trip to Bangladesh. We went to Bangladesh before though, and in the same time next year, October 2022, both of us went to Bangladesh and we spent some time there, you know, around 20 days. But it was a trip so, how do I put it, it was a trip that felt so personal, you know, talking to people. Year back, there's this person I mentioned, you remember early on in the book, I talked about a Mukta Shah, whose own brother was killed in front of her eyes, she watched on the window. This was in 2021, the anti-Hindu attacks that I spoke about, and I spoke to Mukta and then she, first time in my life, I'm meeting Mukta, did not know, there was somebody like her. She held my hand and she said, Dada, where, where, so I said, but we don't know each other. So she said that when, when neighbors become enemies, strangers should become friends. It was a line that stayed with me. So we came back and we decided two things, one, it cannot just be a research paper. And the, since it just can't be one research paper, we have to keep going to Bangladesh and since then, I have kept going to Bangladesh every two months, three months, I used to take this seven day, 10 day work holidays and go there. So yeah, so that, and why, you asked me, why did I start from Nwakha Ali in 1946, because I told you it's a deeply personal book, Nwakha Ali is Abhishek Bishwasa's story. My co-author's story, his family was from Nwakha Ali. So when the infamous, no horrific Nwakha Ali riots were happening in 1946, soon after the great Calcutta killings of 1946, Abhishek's family was there. So you remember how I start the book, it's a horrific story, it's not even, it's a very difficult to tell, but yeah, so he, we started off with his, with his grandmother's story, what happened to her and to her family. And then we took off from there, and there were riots that were, that happened in Nwakha Ali also in 2021, the Hindu Durga Puja time riots, so we linked it to that. So basically, we also wanted to establish how, how it started before the birth of Pakistan, in this case, East Pakistan, continued right, right till the birth of Bangladesh and after till 2021, and as we know now, it's still happening. So somebody has to ask this question, because obviously, after the partition, there was East Pakistan and West Pakistan, there was no Bangladesh in that sense. Yeah, a lot of times in what I call the internet, what word, mediocrity-laced discourse. I don't, I mean, I'm being very kind when I call it mediocre for the record. I mean, I'm kind of known for being a person who swears a lot, but I tried not to swear on my podcast, the internet discourse has never understood that, that the Hindus were never really there in significant numbers in West Pakistan, right? The story of the Hindu outside of what today is India was always the story of the Hindu in East Pakistan. Am I getting something wrong deep? No, you're not, you're not, it's a fascinating, it's a fascinating history that there was a sizeable, sizeable Hindu population in East Bengal, which became East Pakistan post-partition, and it's today Bangladesh. Though now the population has really, really dwindled, it was 7.9 last recorded, I think it must be less now. But there is also a socioeconomic dynamic to the Hindu-Muslim relations, which goes right back to the 19th century, which is that space, that geographical space had a lot of Muslim sharecroppers, you know, people who tended to your land, and a lot of Hindu gentry, okay? So this was a very, this was from the 19th century, the British got it, lot occurs and got it. It was fertile ground for division, okay? Because there was, and look, I mean, there has been, in fact, there's a sense of it in the book, and other research papers have been written about how the upper class/ upper caste Hindu, Hindu gentry was not always in the, you know, in their base behavior. But that was something, that was something that was not just, not just there for the Muslims, it was there for the lower caste Hindus as well, if not for, if not all of them, but many of them had had very, it was those times also had those kind of behavior where you kept othering people, you know, especially people who were on the lower side of the social ladder. But it became fertile ground for politics and interestingly the first law minister of independent Pakistan, Jogendron, a gentleman called Jogendron at Mundal who I write about in the book, he was a Bengali Dalit Hindu, okay? And he convinced a sizable population of Dalits, Bengali Dalits, that look, you were discriminated against by the upper caste Hindu in pretty much the same way that the Muslim is discriminated against. So when the partition was happening, he in fact, told a lot of large section of people, mostly lower caste that don't go to the other side, don't go to India, don't go to West Bengal. Stay back because Muslims are our brothers, what happened though and he became the law minister of independent Pakistan, the law and labor minister, what happened though was soon after, you know, the birth of Pakistan, Jogendron, Mundal saw that this whole caste division is not helping anymore for many Muslim mobs that are coming to attack you, you are just a Hindu, okay? You are not a Dalit Hindu. And he kept talking about it and finally, in frustration, he wrote a long letter and he resigned and he came to West Bengal, tried to do politics here, failed miserably and died on some, but you know, it goes right to 1905 to, you can actually draw a line to the events of 1946-47 to what happened in 1971, where during the birth of Bangladesh, there were rape camps that were set up by the West Pakistan army to push the revolution in his Pakistan. But there was selective genocide, it's a phrase used by an American diplomat, it's not what's up in university or anywhere else, it's a phrase used by an American diplomat who was sending this frantic cable, saying there's a selective targeting of the minority Hindu population. Yes, Muslims were being killed in Mukti Jutto, the war of 1971, war of independence, but selective targeting of Hindu, Hindu population, in fact, there was a film and I met the researcher of the film, it didn't do too well, which spoke about how there were different kinds of rapes, okay? So the Muslim woman would be raped differently than the Hindu woman, okay? It's a horrific thing to read and to hear. And then from 71 to birth of independence, to every time there was some political disturbance, you know, in 2001, for instance, there were a lot of anti-Hindu violence, the army league had lost power and there was a lot of anti-Hindu violence to what we saw last week, whole of last week. Every time in that geographical space, there have been turbulence, political or otherwise, the minority Hindu population has had to bear the brunt. What do we learn from this? If Hindus are casteist, there's point number one, that is what we learn from this. And now you'll see some sections of Hindus getting triggered by my, they should be used to by now, I mean, if anybody look at this face, I hate caste the most, so yeah, guilty as charged. Point number two, casteism is beyond religion. In the subcontinent, whether you're a Muslim, whether you're a Christian, whether you're a Hindu, whether you're a Sikh, yes, whether you're a Sikh, go to Punjab, you'll see casteism, you'll see Gurdwara's separate, separate Gurdwara's. So this is a pan subcontinent reality. Now the irony of this all, you know, when I was reading your book and see, I've been looking up at these numbers just as a nerd at a separate way and I was so glad that someone like you actually wrote this book, is that look at a number we've done on the weakest and the most oppressed class of Hindus in our history. And today in Pakistan, the ones who remain on paper Hindus, who was that Pakistani leader who had famously quipped or some army guy, that we need some Hindus amare bathroom consaf Karega. Right. Something of that sort. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I apologize to my viewers who's got, yeah, the only reasons I mean, those are alive is you know, the discourse of what I call the larger Hindu community of India, the failure of the discourses, they are so Pakistan obsessed, they are so Pakistan obsessed. And because I don't know how to say this, there is the North Indian bias in this, because ham kon kim hasha samas patiyam un kopel tere te ham kon kim hasha ni amare kulabhul rong as a North Indian myself, amare kulabhul rong. So what happens is key up, yes, so the irony is that West Pakistan with a barely Hindus day, 1947 may be needed. And then Joe Hindus have a East Pakistan me and their numbers are reducing and you know, just this excerpt of your book, it just shook me so much that I'm going to read this. This is, I think the bit where you go through the summarization of chapters and I want to read this, the 2021 anti Hindu violence and attacks happened under Sheikh Hasina's watch her party and her government swear by secularism. So what gives in chapter three, the DNA of hate. This is why I want to read this. The DNA of hate, we take a hard look at Bangladesh's social fishes and the heat of islamous hate that is rising through the cracks to engulf the society at large. When I interviewed Bangladesh, home minister, asadu zaman Khan, he said the blame on the zama a Jamaat can quote, they targeted and killed the intellectuals of Bangladesh. At present, they are banned from participating in the politics of Bangladesh and trust me that number is getting smaller by the day. But the rot as we found runs deeper, 30 years from now, no Hindus will be left in Bangladesh should the current rate of exodus continue. Quote, the rate of exodus over the past 49 years points in that direction predicts Dr. Abu Barq, a Dhaka University professor on an average as of 2016, 16, 632 people from the minority community leave the country each day. I was just blown away at the numbers. Every day, chase all over the country. Yeah, in fact, you know, this professor Barq said this and he got into trouble when the book came out because I quoted him, though he has been quoted when he sort of wrote this paper. He is a Dhaka University professor, when the paper came out, you know, it was this was published, this became headline in lot of Dhaka press, but when we wrote the book and it came out again, there was some heat and he had to be, he was pulled up because when he wrote the book, Shekhasina was not in power, when he wrote the paper, Shekhasina was not in power. When the book came out quoting him, Shekhasina was in power. So it appeared as if, you know, he's making the statement now. But fact is that whichever government is in place, and that's a very critical point, whichever government is in place in Bangladesh, whether it was Shekhasina or before. And you could argue that though that's being hugely debated and rightfully so now, whether Shekhasina's government and the civil society during her time was quote unquote secular. But attacks on Hindus kept happening right through its history, through the birth of Pakistan, you know, it was East Pakistan then and, you know, in 1931, it becoming Bangladesh. So too now, I mean, attacks on Hindus are a, it's very sort of easy to attack Hindus, you know, if there have been instances during Shekhasina's reign and she's been, she had been in power for 20 years, 15 straight years now and 5 years before. So throughout there have been reports of attacks on Hindus, there are, there are even, so elections happened in January 7 this year, last year I spent substantial period of time in Bangladesh, especially during Durga Puja, even then there were attacks, okay. There was no loss of lives, but in some districts somewhere, somebody would come in the middle of the night. In fact, there were I think, you know, in the, just before Durga Puja last year, October last year, there were 13 temples, if I'm not wrong, 10 or 13 temples that were attacked in a single night, though the mandabs that are put up. So you, we are only watching it now, of course now the skill of violence is huge, but it's not as if, you know, everything was hunky-dory one week ago and suddenly Hindus are being attacked in Bangladesh, it's not that. Hindus in Bangladesh have learned to live with the fact that, okay, there will be attacks sporadic attacks here and there. So it's, and you know, this binary of, if Hasina is there, Hindus are safe, if Hasina is not there, Hindus are not safe, it's not really true. You could argue about, okay, relatively under Hasina's government, whether they were safer or not, that's an argument, but to say that they were safe and they were safe under her, they're unsafe now, it's not really true. So basically the only thing is, Shek Hasina would ensure that there is no pogrom while the other side cannot guarantee a pogrom will not happen, that's the difference. So it's basically, it is like, that's how horrific it is. Yeah, so she made the right noises, you know, they're not, not, not last year or year before, but she had been to Durga Puja pandas during Durga Puja time and, you know, her party's stated slogan is, "Dhormo Jajal Shabbar," which means religion is personal, but festivities for everybody. So celebrated, celebrate Durga Puja. So there's a sense her, her party, her government, her administration put out, which was secular. So you know, you would not really blame them for being openly communal, but you know, there were instances and these are, there are many such instances where, you know, an army league politician, you know, local leader would go to you and say, "Okay, this part of your agricultural land is mine, okay, now who do you go to, who do you complain about army league leader to a Jamaat leader or a BNP leader or to the local police?" Because army league is your party of choice, army league says that, you know, this is your protected as long as we are there. So get what I'm saying. I mean, small, small things like that kept happening across Bangladesh, but you could say that it was relatively better during her time in power than it was before her or in certain other times in Bangladesh's political history. So like this chart says at all, I think India today had posted this. This is the Hindu population of Bangladesh, the changes in religious demography. Yeah. While in 1951, I think this starts from 1951, there were 76% Muslims in Bangladesh. Now they're 91.6, there were 22% Hindus in Bangladesh during the formation. It was still a relatively good number. And they just been plundering, plundering below. Now they're seven and a half percent, like, like what is the future of, of Bangladeshi Hindus, like pretty much what the Kashmiris were given the option, convert or die? Is that the long story? Well, Las Vegas is horrific. I have, I've always been an optimist and said that, you know, because I have traveled so much in Bangladesh in the last couple of years and have said that, you know, the glass is always half full. But now the glass is broken, you saw what happened last week, right? I mean, these are very, very hard times to be, to even have remnant of hope. But I don't know, I think the hope is that at least Hindus in Bangladesh, sizable portion of them have realized that, that they have to speak up for themselves. As I was telling you before the podcast that, you know, it's, it's, it's in a sense very reassuring to see that despite all its, you know, in the past it had turned its face away from anti-Hindu massacres in, in, in this subcontinent. But now at least New York Times and other, other global media are writing about it. They're at least acknowledging this is happening. Hindus coming out, not just in Bangladesh and it's very important they come out in large numbers in Bangladesh, like they are. But across the globe, you spoke to me about how we have seen it happening, you know, in many other countries as well. And global attention is being drawn to what's happening to Hindus in Bangladesh. I think it's very reassuring. Will it stop the attacks? We are, is the Hindu safe tonight as we speak? I cannot say. But at least they are making their voices heard as opposed to people not talking about it. In large numbers, we're at least talking about it. You're doing this podcast, articles are being written in real time, we are, many of us in Delhi are connected with what's up groups from, you know, Hindu groups that have come up, student groups that have come up in Dhaka and elsewhere. So I don't know what the future holds. It looked very grim last week. But at least now there is on X and on other social media platforms. There is a concerted effort to document the crimes that are being done on them. One more thing, I want to talk about Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, because in your book, you have shared a very interesting quote on page 11 of Kindle for the record Kindle page 11. So you say this country does not belong to Hindus, this country does not belong to Muslims. Whoever thinks this country is theirs, this country will be theirs. Whoever will feel happiness, seeing this country prosper, this country will be theirs. Whoever will cry, seeing this country sad, this country will be theirs, this country will also belong to those who have given away everything for this country's freedom and would do so in the future. Really, I mean, the record doesn't show that. The record does not show that also there is, there is this film that, I don't know whether I have seen it called Mujib the making of a nation. It was directed by Shamben Agal, please check it out, it's not a good film, but you will see the white washing that was done, it was directed by Shamben Agal, it's jointly produced by Indian Bangladesh. I think as a gift to Shekhasina because it was just before her election, so that it came out last year. It did reasonably well in Bangladesh, almost nobody saw it in India. I was part of a committee because I was, I had done the book as part of a committee that was shown the film and I made my discontent known, though the Indian government and the Bangladesh government were both involved in producing the film. It was huge white washing of history, especially the anti-Hindu great Calcutta killings, where Gopal Mukherjee would have heard of him, suddenly from nowhere Gopal Mukherjee came up. Now, if you look at, there is Mujib's legacy is contested, you have to remember that Mujib is the father of the nation, till recently, at least before his statues got toppled across Bangladesh, but I mean, on paper, he is still the father of the nation, the father of the nation. So, I saw a horrific video of a man urinating on top of his future, urinating on top of the statue, got lending him with shoes, and his party has been in power for very many years, so has his daughter, right. He was assassinated along with most of his family, Shekhasina, her younger sister survived, but then she became a politician, she seized power, she has been in part till last week. So, much of the history that was written shows Mujib as a very secular face, but if you go, if you dig deeper, you would see perhaps a few unsavory details about his closeness to Surawati, you know, who was actually the butcher of the great Calcutta killings, he was very close to Surawati, even in the film Mujib, the making of a nation he is shown to address Surawati as leader, okay, he is very, very close to Surawati. Now, the situation became such during 1971, when the Bengali identity was pushed back and how, by the Punjabi identity, when you could not even put Bengali language on the map, nor its culture, you know, its songs and its poetry and its prose and all of that, when you had to be, you were almost force fed Urdu, that is when I think political prudence made you understand that you need to teach a greater coalition over culture and not religion. So in that point of Tispakistan and later Bangladesh's history, you rose, I think he rose over, for a bit he rose over religion with culture, okay, so the binding force was culture, the Bengali culture, okay, you have to do it for Bengali, which is why the international mother-language day and all that, but even during Mujib's reign, you would see interruptions in that idea, right, so it is a carefully crafted history of saying that somehow in Bangladesh, Mujib and then his political air Shekhasina are secular forces and I am saying that it is not wholly untrue, but it is not fully true also, right, because they also both Mujib and Shekhasina, they also flirted with radicals, okay, and radical parties. It is also a humongously, Muslim majority country where there is quite a bit of radicalization, I have spoken about it on XN in my articles that, you know, the Indian government in the last 10 years, the Indian government, that India is a friend of Bangladesh, this was a common refrain, but you have to see civil society to know that there is a deep anti-Indianism in this civil society, so politically, Mujib and Shekha may be friends, there may be strategic partnerships, there may be many MOUs signed, many projects that were done jointly, but the civil society was extremely anti-India and though not all of it was because of, you know, Hinduism versus Islam, at least some of it was because of that, they saw it, the civil society has a, it had and it has a deep distrust and disregard for India, they see India as a big brother, as somebody who planted their dictator on Bangladesh, okay, which is Shekhasina, and one of the slurs that Hindus in Bangladesh have to hear, and this is consistent, this is not just last week, this has been all through Hekhasina's reign as well, and before that is that you are an Indian agent, so if you are, and it's sometimes said very casually you are an Indian agent, you are a raw agent, you know, you don't belong here, these are things that Hindus in Bangladesh, it's as if, I mean, they also don't pay heed to that anymore, because it's so common, it's very casually said that you are an Indian agent, you are a, you know, you are a raw agent, so there is anti-Indianism, there is also, of course, anti-Hindu sentiment in this civil society, and this is irrespective of the political forces that are in power. At the core of this, the story of Bangladesh cannot be dissected and separated from the story of Pakistan, and I don't know if I'm right or wrong, but this is how I understand it. Pakistan was built on the premise, whether people like it or not, that Hindus and Muslims are two separate nations. Now, the day Bangladesh was created, that premise was, the two nation theory was broken is a point, but I understand, but the fact remains that the idea of Pakistan was Hindu majority, Keandar, Musalman, Khushnahi, Resatta, that that was the idea behind it. How much credence does that idea have in Bangladesh is something that is debatable, because if it clearly does not have that kind of credence compared to Pakistan, I mean, Pakistan is just a basket case of bigotry, nothing else, and nobody should have a problem in saying that, I mean, to the chagrin of Pajabi's, who is like, oh, I am not brothers, please, I'm not brothers with Pakistanis, you guys are not my brothers, you guys are not my sisters, I have one brother, I'm more than happy with one brother, I don't need more brothers in my life. Pakistan is an enemy state, I look at them as an enemy state, Pakistanis are individuals, they can be nice Pakistanis, they can be not so nice Pakistanis, that's a separate issue, but how deep rooted is Pakistaniat in Bangladesh. Look, I did a piece of much before the current crisis, socio-political crisis in Bangladesh, it was headline I did it for the print, it was headline that that 1971 idea is now broken, you know, Bangladesh has moved to a more Islamic idea, now I didn't know it, those words would be prophetic, like I told you that Bangladesh is a very young country, and 1971 was more than five decades ago, so the youth of Bangladesh do not really buy into the war of independence, to what Mujib said to his daughter, Hasina, they have been seeing her as a dictator and as somebody who is very close to India, so there is palpable disregard for India in Bangladesh's civil society. January 7, Sheikh Hasina comes to power, and soon after, there is a movement that starts on social media and on the ground, it is called Boycott India movement, okay, and social media influencers including a gentleman called Pinaki Bhattacharya, who is a Bangladeshi in exile, I think in France, he puts out YouTube videos, he sort of in Bengali, he abuses Hasina, he abuses Mr Modi, and he says that stop buying Indian products, okay, and he says, and he also warns Bangladesh actors and actresses who work in the cinema of West Bengal, and also some of them now work in Bollywood, that you should not work with Indian producers, directors and under Indian banners, right, now that movement takes off, soon after Hasina comes back to power and then when it peters off, the Kota reforms protests begin, so this idea, what you are saying, this idea that, there were two things that were in Bangladesh's bloodstream, and these are competing things, one was the sentiment around the Bengali language and culture, okay, and which you saw in 1971 at its peak, and the other thing is of course religion, right, now these are competing ideas, because religion will take you away, rather Islam will take you away, Arabisation will take you away from this composite culture, where you saw, you sang, take a song where you did, you sculpted tall statues, you painted, because the Islamic groups within your society will tell you all of these are only unislamic things, but the Bengaliness will prod you to be more artistic, right, so Bangladesh has always seen this fight, for instance you saw, I just did a piece, I think it should come out in a day or two, this toppling of Mujio statues, of course you did not see these visuals before, but there have, Bangladesh has a very troubled history with statues, you know during Sheikhasina's reign, her father's statue was vandalised, okay, and by radicals, this was when she was the Prime Minister, okay, and they said look you can't put up a statue, because it's an unislamic thing to do, they have this Islamic, if you go to this watch my films, okay, whether Huzur speak, it's basically large gatherings, generally in villages, where they tell you, where they give you points on how to lead your life, including what kind of women to marry, and what not to do, and it's specifically mentioned in many such was Mahafils, and they are very far, they are very popular, with hundreds of people attending them, that you should not go to temples, you should not be so kicked about Durga Pooja, you are a Muslim, why do you go and attend Durga Pooja, why do you take Prasad, it's an unislamic thing to do, now not all Mahafils but many of them, speak this language, and this has been spoken right through Huzina's reign, right, so you say a certain kind of thing for optics, but your civil society has become very Islamic, very anti-Hindu, and very anti-India, don't necessarily may not be in that order, and you know if you are anti-Indian, necessarily you are not anti-Hindu, but there's a huge anti-Hindu sentiment on the ground as well, so it's not as if Huzina, few and you know all of this came out, if she was there, this would not have happened, the point I am trying to make Qushal is, this was always there, now that there was no government for better half of the past week, there was no police, there was a lot of policemen who were killed, I mean we spoke about anti-Hindu violence, which we should, but if you look at the news, the policemen were burnt alive, they were hacked to death, they were hung from trees, those were not just Hindu policemen, they were Hindu policemen also in them, but those were just policemen, if you were seen in uniform you were killed, which is why, till I think two or three days ago, no policemen wanted to go back, so even in Dhaka, the streets were manned by students, there were no cops, there were citizens who came out with whatever weapons they could find and stood out on the streets by turns, so that people don't come and rob them, there were no cops, right, so because of Hasina's history, all of these things came out in the open, but they were always always there, this anti-Hinduness, it's not a new phenomenon, it didn't happen in a week, basically the Hindu population has been dropping even under Shekhasina, it's not like it was increasing under Shekhasina, maybe the percentage of people, you could argue that during her reign, maybe the number of attacks or coordinated attacks against Hindus, well less than during such points in the country's political history when she was not in power, you could make that argument, but there are also a lot of ifs and buts, you can always say how much of it was reported, did the press always carry news of anti-Hindu attacks, there may not have been that many coordinated attacks, but where all individual cases recorded, you could make those points, but you could say relatively speaking, Hindus were safer under Hasina than, you know, than without her, basically the only conclusion in this is, there is only one trajectory of the Bangladeshi Hindu, it's just that the speed gets less or more, that's the sad reality when it comes to the Bangladeshi Hindu, because like even in your book, when you talk about, you quote, Jojanta Karmakar, who points out, puts this point across like Hindus are at most election tools for majority of the political parties of Bangladesh, he points to the election manifesto of the Jamaat, which if one takes at face value seems to be liberal and secular, but it is an open secret in Bangladesh that the Jamaat is responsible for the larger share of anti-Hindu violence. However, its 2008 election manifesto reads, the aims and objects of Bangladesh, Jamaat Islam, economic emancipation of the people, ethnic and religious harmony, cultural enrichment, preservation of history and tradition, justice, economic, social and political and above all to preserve and protect the freedom and sovereignty of Bangladesh. Madam, I want to focus the next few minutes and I have a few audience questions I want to ask you to, what is the solution for Hindus then deep? What do Hindus do then? What is the close for now, there are, there are, you saw those visuals, those videos and those pictures of large number of people wanting to cross over and come to India, for now the borders are closed, like I said that, you know, they have to, see, they do not even have the fig left of secularism that Hasina offered them. So now they have to speak up for their rights, they have to come together and, you know, make their voices heard, it's a, you know, I'll tell you this also, Kushal, that they are where I have seen many Hindus in Dhaka who have done extremely, extremely well in Bangladesh, okay, it's not as if every Hindu in Bangladesh is under siege, there are Hindus who have done, they have to, who are almost, I saw in a country where there's a huge number of poor people, okay, there are Hindu leaders who have amassed huge wealth and I hate to say this, it's not true for everybody, but they have not really done much for their people, many of these Hindu leaders, there are Hindu leaders who have, who have worked some several hundred crores, you know, they have big businesses. Now many of them, if not all of them have not done much for the Hindu population in the country, okay, there are Hindus in the police service, there are Hindus in the military and even in high places, not just in lower ranks, there are Hindu businessmen, right, now there are Hindus in civil services, for instance, in B.C. as Panna de civil service, Hindus are said to do very well, they are, they are there in the ranks. Now you have to come out, come together as a group, okay, and you have to, you have to have a Hindu consciousness that, okay, nobody's coming to save us in Aari, so what we have seen in the last two, three days, you have to see more of that very regularly and also perhaps under political banners that, you know, there's this, there's a eight point charter, including a, which, which a group has put out, it's a Hindu students group, I got it on my WhatsApp saying that there are eight things that they are, they are asking for from the interim government, under Mahamadhi this, one of it is have a proper minority AFS ministry, okay, which actually works and I think they have to, for now they have to make their voices heard and it is for us to keep documenting their voices, you said and it's very rightly so that we are, we have this obsession in India or Pakistan, we don't talk about the population in Bangladesh where there are still many Hindus left and there are beautiful temples and historical religious places, I have been to a few of them, we do not, we do not care about, as a country, we are not cared for the Bangladeshi Hindu, so I think it is for them to raise their voice, it is for us to take note of what they are saying, constantly, you know, talk about them, write about them and do a bit, so that at least there is what I said at the beginning of the podcast that, you know, at least they are making global headlines, so at least that keeps happening. So you know, this is the hierarchy of annoyance that I see, it's not just Pakistan, it's only Punjabi, Busmeh, Sindigo, Koini, Pushta, in fact Bangladeshis get more plotted than Sindis, so you know, this is the hierarchy of rubbish in Indian discourse, Punjab, then Bengalis and Sindis, like I always tell people, I say you do realize the only Hindus left in Pakistan are Sindis, Sindis lost their whole land, most of them came to India, they did not get a pranth in India, they were scattered all over India, like where I am from in Mumbai, in Chembur, there is a Sindis society, Sindhi camp, where do you think ladies and gentlemen, they came from originally, they came from Pakistan and we created Sindhi enclaves for them, so this is a classic, you know, Indian behavioral pattern, it's just, you know, everything is downstream from oh, Punjabi's Kissati, oh, I'm not, you know, I'm Punjabi myself, I'm not reducing what happened to Punjabi's as irrelevant, but I think there are other problems too, but then in such a situation where anything India does right now, it's going to be perceived negatively, how do we save these children, like it was such a heartbreaking video of that BSF, that Gauravana member who was shared, I actually, I want to share a few videos for the benefit, like this was good, because just to back what Deep was saying, so this was a video of Bangladeshi Hindus coming out and protesting right now. So, there were a couple of other videos that I'd say, what broke my heart was that speech by the BSF officer, I was like, what have we reduced this country to, like, what have we done, how can anybody sleep with this level of comfort, when you know, when you know something like this is happening right beside you, and people are coming in, and listen, this is not one or two people, like Bangladeshi Hindus are one crore plus, we can't be in a situation where one crore people are just going to come down, this video full disclosure isn't Bengali, but I still am going to play it and I am requesting deep, it's with subtitles for those who want to know, but deep can explain the situation better later on, but I want to play this video for people, so that they get a context of what the hell is happening in Bangladesh right now, is actually tragic. [ Inaudible ] [ Inaudible ] [ Inaudible ] [ Inaudible ] [ Inaudible ] I don't even have the guts to play the whole damn thing, it is so heartbreaking to see thousands of people just begging for their lives to be saved, but what do we do, like kudos to the BSF officer, man, the way he handled the situation, he was like a true Indian ambassador, he was like here, and notice how he says, he was representing his country, he used the word country again and again and again, and he was trying to tell them, but I don't blame them, where will they be, where does a Bangladeshi Hindu run, but not India, where does he run, if his life is there? And it's a slur, you know, even in the best of times, like I said, in Bangladesh, that you are called a Indian, an Indian agent, a rho agent, and you are saying things like, why are you here, you should cross border and go to India. Yeah, that's a sad reality, I mean, the world woke up to it this last week, but this has been happening for very long now. Yeah, it's just heartbreaking that, I mean, I have said this time and again, I am literally begging the Indian prime minister, but yeah, I don't know how to say this, but these are my views, so please don't attribute them too deep. But I believe the subcontinent is a unique case and India oves to take care of every single non-Muslim in Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Sri Lanka. It's our moral responsibility, it's our moral responsibility, we have to take care of them. We cannot shun away by saying, I understand, we can't get corrodes in together, it will create a crisis in India, I understand the logistical nightmare, but eventually we will have to create a system of something or the other, they literally have the option of what, convert or die, that's the only option effectively for them. So, I don't know when the CA will be modified, I hope this government understands that we have to have an open CA, I don't know what your views are, I mean, I just put my views on record, because I don't know how else to save these people, otherwise there's no hope for them. You know, you're right, I mean, I mean, BSA officer of course was lauded for the way he handled the situation, but imagine the people he was speaking to, I mean, those were nice words, but what are they going back to? I mean, they were going back to perhaps certain deaths, some of them might be alive, some of them might be lucky, but what were they going back to? To say that, you know, this should be, there should be a discussion, I mean, discussion on what exactly, they were there, begging to come in, because there was no hope left, and it was, you had to, I mean, the guy had no other option, but you had to send them right back to what they were escaping from. It's just a hopeless situation, it's just a hopeless situation. I know you have to go, so I'll ask you a few questions, like, somebody, he's a Bengali, I will ask this upfront to the, is the finance solution being implemented on us, being a Bengali Hindu, sure as hell feeds like extermination. Is this a finance solution? It's a Bengali who's asking this question, to be very honest. The Bengali Hindu, Kushal is one of the most persecuted communities in the world. One of the reasons for this is sometimes he or she does not even know that he's being persecuted, okay. If you see the chatter in different Bengali circles, they will tell you that, well, you know, such things happen in the subcontinent all the time. There are other communities, Muslims are persecuted in India, and we don't talk about it enough, and, you know, Hindus are being persecuted in Bangladesh, you certainly talk about it. It is a far sicker argument to make just because of the scale of attacks on Hindus, okay. We have, you know, there have been fact checks on us, on a couple of pictures and videos that came out of Bangladesh during this time, you must have seen it on X. But, you know, the sheer scale of such attacks, I'm not saying that one or two pictures might not have been from previous times, but the sheer scale of such attacks, I have had sleepless nights looking at those pictures on my WhatsApp because I'm, as you must also be attached to various groups within Bangladesh, you know, who are constantly documenting and telling us what's happening there, and to get distress calls. So, final solution, I don't know, I think to answer the specific question, I think, look, the way I see it is now that the government is in place, the Indian government, you will see, you won't see such, such visuals, horrific visuals and videos come out of Bangladesh, you know, things will move towards some sanity. However, I think what might happen is there will be gradual toning down of Hinduness, which has been happening in Bangladesh civil society for very long. So, the incentive to remain Hindu will be taken off, you may not be butchered and burnt alive, your house will not be set on fire like you saw in the last week. But, there will be instances of othering and very forceful othering, which will continue over a period of time, you know. And it may, without Harsina, there's a chance that that may go off. You know, somebody had a Muslim journalist, so it happened to know very well in Bangladesh, who has been with me on reporting assignments across the country, told me that if Shekhasina is out of power, forget what will happen to the Bangladeshi Hindu, Bangladeshi Muslim people like me would, you know, attend the Dhruga Pooja or, you know, listen to Tego's song or, you know, have a, not towards a more composite culture. I won't have any space in Bangladesh. Bangladeshi Aethis are another group. I get, I mean, people may not know this. I mean, one of my life's biggest regrets, I have said this so many times, it's not helping that boy who's in Kolkata. I could not manage to send him to Europe. India was not possible, but I could not. So he had to go back. He was an Aethis blogger. I don't know if people know Bangladeshi bloggers are actually very well known. Aethis in Bangladesh. And some of the most brutal takes on religion come from Bangladesh. Yes, yes. Oh, may I express love from Bangladesh in this part of the world. I happen to interview one of them, Asad Nur. I don't know whether you heard of him. I know. I know who Asad is. He's currently here, and he has documented. In fact, what I was telling you, Khushal, that it's not as if things were very honky-dory during Hasina's time. And he said that it was a kind of binary that was put out, that Hasina good for Hindus. Without Hasina, Hindus are in hell. It's not quite true. It's very led, that argument. And he actually, I learned a lot from him in terms of the kind of things that are taught in some madrasas across the country, many madrasas across the country. And how hate is internalized from a very, very young age. And how it's a, it's a very, it's an identity you always have to be, that will, that can get you in trouble any time. You know, anywhere, even in Dhaka, if you are, you know, it's not as if you are always physically attacked. But there will be a jai, but you're at the way you pray, or what you stand for, you know. And like I said, there's this fear that now that toning down of Hinduness will happen at a, at a faster rate. Yeah, it's, it's just terrible. But another good question that I saw is, why has being Muslim be a superseded being Bengali, consistently? Why, why, what are the intellectual reasons for that? I think that is the question. Because you're, I mean, honestly, my answer would be by his book because he explains this very phenomenon in the book, how being Muslim is superseding being Bengali. But if you can give a short answer. Like, like I said, it's two competing blood streams in your, in, in, in Bangladesh's body quality, which is that there is the Islamic identity and there is also the Bengali identity. And these two have often clashed, they have tried to make sense of the two of them. You know, it's, it's, it's, it's fascinating to, it's a fascinating space to watch. Like in good times we go to Bangladesh, if you go to Hakka University, which is a huge university campus. You will see a young lady in a hijab, you know, openly smoking a cigarette and holding her boyfriend's hand. So there is this sense in urban spaces of trying to marry modernity. So if you, if you, if you regard smoking a cigarette as modernity with, with, you know, being, being Muslim. Okay. Now, but it's, it's, it's, it's sometimes, it's too much to keep in your head. It's, it's two competing thoughts to, you know, that you have to bring together in the best of times. You know, worst of times you attack what, what, at least a part of your identity is tell you is an Islamic, which is Hinduness. You know, it's very easy at one level, Pakistan. So Bangladesh was East Pakistan, right till 1971. Now, what is Park? Park means pure. What is impure? Hinduness is impure. So it, at some level, it is as easy as that. The first thing you see is the, on the road, on the streets of Bangladesh, when you see a Hindu, is he, you see a Hindu, you see a Bindi, you see a Sari. Okay. You see a way of praying and idolatry is haram. Right. Now you have lived with that idea. It's not that there are, if you go to Banga, I don't know this here, I'm sure it will happen in this here. Also there is this, there's this proposal to give three days holiday national holiday during the Upuja, which has come up before the union's government. That I have seen for myself with my own eyes across Bangladesh to look just celebrated with a lot of pomp and grandeur. And there are Muslims who go there. It's true. Okay. But along with news of attacks, along with news of celebrations, there are also news of attacks. So like I said, these are two competing identities, you know, that Bangladesh has to deal with. And it is, it is very fertile ground, crucial for politics. What you tone up at what time, what you tone down, you know, what you say you are, you know, one day the Hindu is your equal citizen. The next day he's pro-Indian, you know, on a very bad day, he's, he's a raw agent. So it's, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's very, very fertile ground for politics for all political parties, our millig included. Okay. The Hindu, it can be argued that the Hindu did not, I mean, Shikhasina had converted Bangladesh into a party state. Literally so, she controlled everything before a traumatic exit. Why will Hindus being attacked during a time? You know, why did the population dip so much even during a time? These are, these are just questions. Yeah. Well, literally it's sad reality is that it's just a rate that changes beyond a point. That's all it we can do. And that's why Shikhasina is better relatively for Hindus compared to the Jamath or, or the BNP or whatever other option comes or even the army for that matter. I mean, it's just, it's, it's, it's, okay, somebody has asked to what extent do you think peaceful protest will work? Or eventually it has to be gone to, we want a separate Hindu land inside Bangladesh and possibly bifurcate or trifurcate Bangladesh. I'm not saying this is my idea. I'm just asking a question. I mean, these are, these are things that will of course come up seeing the visuals, seeing the kind of visuals that we did last week. But having said that for starters, the fact that there are protests, so look, quote unquote student protests. I mean, that's another discussion student protests led to the fall of gas, student protests, government, and you know, dramatic exit of Shikhasina from Bangladesh. But protests are making headlines, global headlines, not just protests in, soon protests in Bangladesh, but America for different reasons, of course, and in different countries. If you are coming out in large numbers with banners and if you are getting your voice heard, it's definitely not a bad thing. It's better than, you know, getting killed and doing nothing and just, you know, people just, you know, saying that we are, we express solidarity with the Bangladeshi Hindu. I mean, that's not going to save them. It's all very fine to say that, but that's really not going to save them. They have to speak up, do something for themselves, you know, till such time as Kushal said, and it's an argument many are making at this point in time that the CA dates are done away with, you know. So, till such time, till such time that happens, you have to have to make your voice heard and protests, of course, are a very, protest in such large numbers, the video you showed Kushal, you know, that's a huge protest. You can't ignore it. If that video goes viral, I mean, it's definitely will have some impact. The world will take notice. Yeah, I mean, this one also, I don't know if this is, if this one is from this time or the last time, I don't know if this one is like, even this one. So, what they're saying is, we are also citizens of this country. Basically, this is our mitti. That's what they're demanding, right? And I don't know where this, this was the biggest, I mean, this really broke my heart and inspired me also, that when I heard this boy speaking, I mean, I don't know if this is from this time or from the previous time either, but this particular clip. Yeah. What else are these kids supposed to do? Yeah. But you know, one little nagat of information, he's saying Jayashiram. Okay. One of the things that she said about Hasina, one of the popular slogans in Bangladesh from the political protests against her government, even as recently as last year was, one of the slogans was, "Harekrishna Haranam Sheikhasinar Bhappanam." So, it means, "Harekrishna Haranam is Sheikhasinar's father's name. It was supposed to be an abuse, it was supposed to be by saying that Sheikhasinar is Hindu." So, in a space like that, in a society like that, to come out in the open and say, "Hey, Jayashiram is something." So, and so forcefully, so vehemently saying, you know, making a religious identity known because, like I told you, there has been a toning down of the Hindu identity. So, to say Jayashiram is a, you know, you mentioned Jantha Karmokar and know him very well, he's a Hindu rights activist. He does his social media post-Muslim Bengali Khushal, but if you had to read them, you know, he very forcefully puts out his Hindu identity to the fore. So, I mean, of course, there's a huge risk in doing that, but if you're doing it in large numbers, finally, I think it's a good thing. Yeah, I think, as far as I'm concerned, before we wrap up, what are the best ways to help them individually, in your view, as of now? What can we do as Indian citizens or as citizens of Indian origin outside India? What can we do in your view? I'll share my views later on, but I want you to speak first. You know, I have been a journalist, I write books. I would say that this can never be a bad thing. And if you do it in large numbers, and if, especially today, you know, the mainstream media obviously has its limitations. It has its market demands, but if you're doing it in huge numbers in the, you know, with podcasters like you, who have humongous following or through, you know, influencers on X and others, social media spaces, there is a global consensus that will come up. You know, like we saw this week, it's not just some quote unquote right, Hindu right and WhatsApp University. You know, so many of us wrote on Twitter, okay, that this is what this is what's happening, that the other voices which try to somehow do some balancing had was pushed to a side. This is that kind of time that we are going through, we have to have to talk about what's happening. And you have to have a consensus, you know, people may not agree, people may have differing views on what should happen to one of the Hindus, what solution is best for them. But we need to come together as a community and we need to stand by them. You and I, or, you know, somebody else may differ in how we think a solution can be brought about, but we shouldn't, you know, in a different context, you said that when they were being attacked. And I told you that story of Juggenrath Mundo that they were no longer lower caste Hindus, they were just Hindus who were being attacked. So this is, this is a time of solidarity. This is a time where even if you have divergent views, you should all put it on the table and say, look, I don't necessarily agree with you, but I am as concerned as you are. For the Bangladeshi Hindu and let's all put out our views and let the best view, you know, find space, but just because I differ with you, I'm not going to pull you down. I think that solidarity, if you are with the Bangladeshi Hindu is important at this time. I agree with somebody, somebody's language, somebody's tone, somebody is using cuss words, I may not personally agree with that, but this is not a time I'm going to point that out. Because a battle or battle is being fought for the very existence of the Bangladeshi Hindu. So this is a time of solidarity. Our differences of opinion, the manner we put our points across can be debated at a later date. For now, we need to come together and do all we can so that these voices are, you know, voices are heard by a global audience. Like I said, you know, I may have had in the past an opinion about how New York Times or space like New York Times does it's journalism, but right now I'm not going to pull it down saying, you know, oh, you're finally woken up and look at Bangladeshi Hindu because it's good that they have whatever the length of the article, whatever whitewashing them may have done, it is still a global headline, you know, in a global media space, if I'll just leave I have to do it. I welcome it. I may not agree with the tone and tenor of the article, but I'm going to welcome it saying that, okay, they have now, if I am to write an article, I'll of course write it my way, right, I will not hold back because this is a very motive issue for me. But this is not a time to, I think, to nitpick and, you know, and pull down one another saying, oh, you didn't do it this way, my way, so you're wrong. No, everybody needs to come up and speak up for the Bangladeshi Hindu. Whoever is doing that in the first place, if somebody is not doing it, then there's nothing to say. But whoever is speaking up for the Bangladeshi Hindu, I don't think this is a time for differences. Yeah, I agree. It was really heartening to see for two days straight, thousands of Canadians of Jewish origin, Iranian origin, Hindu origin, Bangladeshi origin, Indian origin, they turned up in huge numbers into Ronto Canada and other parts of Canada, and they were protesting. You know, Ottawa has a very tiny Hindu population, even their people came for the Bangladeshi Hindu cause. They were people in America also who turned up. This has happened everywhere. The Scottish Hindu Foundation has tried its best, even Hindus in Scotland are trying to help get some Bangladeshi Hindus out of Bangladesh. So, once again, I want to use my platform today to remind each and every one of you, especially to the Twitter hotheads. I want to thank you for the opportunity to be here. I want to thank you for the opportunity to be here. I want to thank you for the opportunity to be here. Thank you for the opportunity to be here. I want to thank you for the opportunity to be here. I want to thank you for the opportunity to be here. If you stay outside India, go talk to your local member of parliament, force your member of parliament, and mark my words, especially Indian origin politicians of the Western world. I am making a list. I want to thank you for the opportunity to be here. I want to thank you for the opportunity to be here. I want to thank you for the opportunity to be here. I want to thank you for the opportunity to be here. It is heartening to see a lot of leaders in the Western world. I am heartened for the first time that they have spoken about this issue other than the obvious Prime Minister of Canada who has not even said a word. In fact, Prime Minister Canada is a unique country. The murderer of Sheikh Mujibur Raman has been living in Toronto for 25 years, so Canada will be here. But the Conservative Party of Canada, who called leader Pierre Paulier, he wrote an individual statement and he openly announced it. Obviously Chandra Arya has, Shoula, Majumdar has, and Melissa Lanceman has many other leaders have spoken about it. But once again, if you are a Hindu in Bangladesh, please don't think that we don't. I have received so many emails in the last few days. Like, I was telling deep, videos, videos, videos and videos, but at this point of time, what we as a community and Mujibur Raman is, I am a major problem. As a community of Hindus, we have to look out for these innocent people who are being butchered for no fault of theirs. But always remember to make arguments, you have to give good arguments and to understand good arguments, you have to read. So, all of you go and read Deep's book, because it literally contextualizes what is happening in Bangladesh to the Hindu community. Until or unless you don't read things, you will never understand things, which is why I am so glad that Deep has recorded in the book. Deep, once again, I know it's a very horrible time to talk about this subject, but thank you for writing this book. Thank you, Kushar. It was a great podcast and thank you for giving. I didn't know you from before, but the fact that you devoted this podcast to the cause of the Bangladeshi Hindu is a great thing. And trust me, we need to keep talking. That's the only thing we can do for now. We should keep talking, we should keep talking every day. We need to and we need to not pull each other down. You know, Richard Nixon during 1971, I think during March 1971, Richard Nixon had President Nixon had famously told Henry is in German when reports were coming of what was Pakistani army was doing to the East Pakistani population and the selective genocide of Hindus in his Pakistan. That said he had said the main thing to do is to keep come and do nothing. OK, so this is, we should not, we should do the exact opposite thing of what Nixon told, we should not keep pull and we should do everything we possibly can to help the Bangladeshi Hindu. Absolutely, I couldn't agree more with you Deep. So ladies and gentlemen, before we wrap up once again, Joe Karsakteokaro, but try to be an active participant and a positive participant. Don't be someone who actually creates problem for Bangladeshi Hindus. So, don't be a Twitter hot head. Try to help people. Try to find organizations that help people. I know ISKCON has deep roots in Bangladesh. Try and reach out to ISKCON. If you can donate to ISKCON in Bangladesh, donate to ISKCON. Find other groups in Bangladesh. I will try to find out as many organizations as possible. I will tweet about them. Other organizations, please look at Bangladesh from Ramthakaras from huge number of devotees. The Mottuas in Bangladesh, you knew about them, you know, during that very, very one assembly elections. The Mottuas are headquartered in Bangladesh. So the Mottuas, there are sub-sex of Hindus, who work for the community. ISKCON is there, so are many other sub-sex of Hindus, who have a huge number of followers. You can go to their website and you will see the kind of work they are doing. And please reach out to them. There are people in Bengal who are in huge numbers. There are followers of Loknath Baba and Ramthakur. There is a huge ashram in Bangladesh or Ramthakur. If you are a devotee in Bengal, please see whether that hospital, whether that ashram and the ashram administration has opened its website for donation. Please see if you want to just be a devotee in West Bengal, please reach out to fellow devotees there. Whatever strand of Hinduism you follow, see what everybody is doing there for the one of the Hindu. Yeah, and it's our moral responsibility right now. So ladies and gentlemen, we'll wrap today's podcast. Go follow. In the description, you'll find the link to buy Deep's book, go buy Deep's book, go follow him on Twitter. And I'll request Deep to tweet out all these organizations that we can donate to or help. So once you go on Twitter, you will see a tweet by Deep saying if you want to help Bangladesh, Hindus, these are the organizations and go. So I will donate personally. I'll be the first one. I'll start Applokaro by Deep's book. And if you want to keep supporting the Charvak podcast, you know the drill. But this is the time to save Bangladeshi Hindus. And I hope you guys realize the importance of that. I'll leave you at that. Namaste. Take care. Jai Shri Ram. Jai Shri Ram. (upbeat music)