[MUSIC] >> Hey, you're listening to Creative Pet Talk, a weekly podcast companion for your creative journey. I'm your host, Andy J. Pizza. I'm a New York Times best-selling author and illustrator. And this show is everything I'm learning about building and maintaining a thriving creative practice. [MUSIC] >> This episode is for you if you are sick and tired of waiting for someone to let you do the creative work that you want to be making. If you need inspiration for how to put more of yourself into your work, or if you just need a fresh helping of that feeling of why we do creative work at all and stick until the end for a CTIA called no mitt for these pitches on the mindset shift. That helped me go from a place of fruitlessly pitching tons of unsuccessful book ideas to publishers and into a place where I've been consistently making books for the past few years. Let's get into it. [MUSIC] >> Jason, we have a lot going on. >> We really do. >> Maybe too much, but it doesn't feel that way thanks to Miro. >> Yeah, Miro is the visual collaboration platform that helps your team work together from anywhere. >> Yeah, and Miro has tools for project management, creating a digital whiteboard with your team where you can brainstorm. Making retrospectives and a whole lot more. We have a lot of content here at MNN and we've been trying to figure out how to get our videos up on different platforms and Miro's flow chart tool really helped us get organized and figure out what we need to do to make that happen. >> And I really love Miro's mind mapping tool. It's a space where you can organize your thoughts in a way that translates to the rest of your team so that they can help you take action. >> Super helpful because I can't always reach your mind. You know, it would be scary if you could. Whether you work in product design, engineering, UX, agile, or marketing, bring your team together on Miro. Your first three Miro boards are free when you sign up today at Miro.com. >> That's three free boards at M-I-R-O.com. >> If you want inspiration to make deeper, richer creative work, check out this podcast from the Metropolitan Museum of Art. It's called Immaterial, 5,000 years of art, one material at a time. Each episode examines a material of art like clay, stone, and even trash. And what they can reveal about history and humanity. One episode I suggest starting with is space part one, giving form a feeling. If you know me, you know this notion of giving form a feeling is very much my jam. And the story of the artist that cast these forms of negative spaces, like in a wardrobe or underneath the table, was particularly moving to me. And I could feel it kind of opening up that essential emotional novelty side of my creative brain. Check out Immaterial by searching Immaterial, 5,000 years of art, one material at a time in your podcast app. That's Immaterial, 5,000 years of art, one material at a time. Today on the show, we have Joni Wolf, the front man of the band. Why? He's also the founder of the band. If you don't know, all the music on this show is the band. Why? Joni wrote and sings the theme song of the show. And I became a mega super fan of the band when I was in college, with the release of their album, Alopecia. It's the kind of super fandom where me and my friends in England, when I lived there at the time, learned every lyric, and would sing along with every word in all the car journeys. And I've been a huge fan ever since. And when I moved back to the States, I reached out to some bands that I was obsessed with, and Joni actually took me up on letting me do some posters and shirts for the band. And then our creative friendship just kind of evolved from there. As someone who became an illustrator because of indie band posters, this creative relationship with a musical hero is beyond a dream come true for me. I couldn't be more grateful. And when he agreed to let us use his 2019 album AOK Ohio for our right side out series that we just did this past spring, it took this to another level that I could never have dreamed of. This album was eerily perfect to be the soundtrack to tell the story of my ADHD diagnosis and how it had this massive impact on my creative journey and my relationship to my mom. It was just freaky, how perfectly this fit. And it really made the project for me and the team. If you haven't heard that series, it's a six episode series. It starts back on episode 449. You can listen to this episode and then go back to that if you want. And it's one of the things that I'm most proud of making in my whole creative journey. This conversation with Yoni gets into some of the self-love and creative self-exploration themes that we talk about in that series. But it also talks about and explores the independent spirit that led him and the band to decide to release their new album, the well that I fell into, independently. And we talked through some of the feelings and circumstances that led to this new release. The new album is amazing. I am freaking loving it. It's been on repeat. And my British father-in-law who has been in town with Sophie's family also was getting into it. And he grew up on Cockdo Twins and The Smiths and has decidedly better music taste than me. And he was jamming to it and loving the album too. So go check it out. The band is Y-W-H-Y question mark. The album is the well that I fell into. And we'll play a few clips throughout this episode just to give you a taste. Go support this truly indie band doing incredible music and check out their tour that they just kicked off and see if you can catch them near where you live. I'm going to go try to catch this Cincinnati date. All right. Without further ado, here is my chat with the legendary Yoni Wolf. ♪ ♪ Classic air is a vacuum where you are now ♪ ♪ ♪ Enoma, canna, coke, flattened by a thousand cars ♪ ♪ ♪ How strange to be strangers after what we was ♪ ♪ ♪ In a soft, separate life with heart ♪ ♪ we held the center part of us ♪ So how are you feeling? You're getting ready to go on tour, right? Yeah. You know, I just looked at my calendar and I think our first show was a week from today. Something like that. Yeah. Have you been in rehearsal mode? We have. I mean, now we took a break. So like everybody went on vacation, except for me pretty much. I mean, you know, I didn't do that much, but I've been here in my same little situation. I've been walking the dog a lot and getting out of the house. We took a little break, but we're getting, we'll get back to it tomorrow and, you know, do it. Yeah. And you haven't done it for a long time, right? Been a while. I mean, you know, my brother and I went out and did a little two piece in 2022. So yeah, that was two years ago, but before that, the full band kind of deal, it had been since 2019, free pan, dammy, all that. So been a while. Cool. Well, I'm excited. And, you know, first of all, I just want to say thank you for letting us license your songs for right side out. That was like more than a dream come true. Me and my team were just constantly pinching ourselves with how perfect it worked. And the audience responded incredibly well to that particular part of the project. In fact, a bunch of people even reached out to say you should have Yoni on the show because they hadn't heard your music other than what was already on the show that they didn't realize was yours. Maybe seriously, thank you because it was kind of a dream collaboration and it worked better than I ever thought it would. Well, thank you. I mean, yeah, I have to agree with you. Like listening to it, like, I mean, you know, you guys just expertly, you know, inserted the songs. And I mean, it just, just beautiful. And it ran the sort of sentiment of the songs really matched with what you were talking about. I mean, I don't know. It seemed like a real, real kismic kind of situation. It did, honestly. Yes. I mean, I had kind of had the idea, like though the A.O.K. Ohio stuff kind of stood out as a good fit as we were kind of thinking through the story. And then it wasn't until I made a trailer before we even made the full project. And I started noticing all of these similarities and patterns and some of the stuff you were exploring on that album. And then the further we went, the more, there were so many times where like, can you believe this lyric right here? It's so good for this. So it was just a huge, a huge dream come true and really made the project. And I'm just extending my thank you from my wife who worked on it and Connor and people that listened to it, that really enjoyed it. So thanks. - No, man. It's a high honor and really it's a win-win. 'Cause you know, you're reciprocating, making this art for these t-shirts and tote bags and posters and all this shit for our tour. And it's just like, yeah, no, it's a dream all around, for sure. - Cool, that, yeah, it means so much. So I thought one thing we could do is, you know, people that listen to this show, they might be familiar with your music outside of the show. They might know it from the soundtrack of the show or from right side out. And then also you sing the theme song. So they're hearing it every week. But I thought for a lot of people probably don't know, your creative journey. So I thought, I want to talk about the new album, but I thought we should go through your journey a little bit first to kind of give some context. And I thought it would be good to start back just like a brief dive into meeting Adam Drucker and how Anticon came together because that's such a huge part of the story. - Yeah, can you talk a little bit about those days? - Yeah, I mean, you know, we're going back to like late teenage, you know, days and maybe I was 19, I think when I met Adam and yeah, I had seen him in a rap battle against like Eminem who was also not famous at the time. They were about the same amount of famous and a bunch of other really great rappers and but Adam was the one that stuck out where I was like, "Oh my God, this guy's so different, he's unique." And, you know, I didn't really talk to him there, but then I ran across him at the university. I had just, I was a freshman at college and, you know, I just ran into him on campus. And I was like, "Dose One," you know, 'cause that was the rap name that he had. And we started talking and we started to band together, which was sort of like a free funk hip hop, you know, freestyle kind of affair with my brother and a bunch of other musician friends of ours and Mr. Dibbs, who's a really awesome turntableist and Adam as the freestyle rapper and I was like a percussionist mostly and I would have once in a blue moon get up and freestyle. But yeah, and-- - And so you saw him battle M&M 'cause I knew that he had, like I knew stuff about that, but you actually saw that moment. - Yeah, yeah, I mean, I did not stay, so like the bulk of the day was outside at this place called Annie's in Cincinnati and I stayed for all that. And then the nighttime was inside Annie's and I wasn't 21. So I couldn't attend that part. But so that was like the finals, but I watched all the earlier battles, yeah, for sure. - That's pretty nuts, that's crazy. And so then that relationship, you guys made stuff together and if people don't know, like those ones done all kinds of different things. I was a really big fan of subtle, which was one of his bands and 13 in God and all kinds of great, great stuff. But then that relationship and some other ones turned into Anticon, which was a record label. How did that kind of happen? - Yeah, I mean, basically there started to be this sort of crop of our age of like challenging indie rap or like underground rap that was like weird and different. And that was a phenomenon happening around the country and in Canada as well. And I think in fact, maybe global to some extent, but it was sort of fueled by the tape trade, where people would trade like cassette dubs of some weird mix tapes, basically, like the original mix tapes would get passed around and you'd get like a fifth generation dub of something and you'd barely hear someone rapping through the hiss. And that was like the most awesome thing, but it would be like some really weird shit. So like we all kind of connected over that and decided that we would start this label. I mean, that's the long story short, essentially. There were some attempts to like get a couple of projects signed to labels that were not fruitful and then eventually it was like, well, let's just do our own label and that became anti-con. - Yeah. And those early days, I mean, it kind of, when I've heard you on podcasts with those guys and I listened to what it felt like, it reminds me of being in college, early zen making, those kind of collaborative moments and there's so much, I mean, I think anybody that is closer to the creative part of the path where you and I are, those days have a juice that you can't get, you can't get back to that zone. But then there's also, there's the good, the bad and the ugly. There's all kinds of stuff going on. I wondered if at that time, when you guys were all geeking out about the music in this kind of independent spirit, if you could talk about what you think the good, the bad and the ugly was in terms of dreams and aspirations or like what you thought you were doing, what you were hoping, what happened, both in like the creative side, but also maybe the ego side or like what was going on at the time for you and that group? - I think creatively it was really powerful because you had, we all kind of relocated to the Bay Area, so we were all sort of living in Oakland, basically, and there was this real, you know, everybody sort of pushing each other to do better and more and more unique and all that stuff. You know, so that was really awesome and then something that I miss, a great deal. You know, different people had different aspirations, some more humble than others and, you know, some were hoping to sort of, you know, maybe have Anticon really, really explode and, I mean, we all wanted that, you know? And it did quite well for a while. And yeah, but you know, the ugly aspect, I don't know. I mean, you know, and I always kind of had a, I was a bit reticent about the sort of fraternistic aspect or something, I don't know, a little boys club or something like that vibe, but yeah, mostly I think it was pretty positive to be honest. I mean, there were some fights, clashes throughout, of course, as there always is within any creative enterprise. But yeah, by and large, I think it was pretty cool. And you know, not that, you know, there's some cringy stuff that came about, you know, music-wise from those times, but you know, that's fine. We were young and that's to be expected and is a different time and all that. I definitely sort of miss that group energy to some extent. You know, I do like, you know, where my life and career has gone to, sometimes, you know, depending on the day, but yeah, I'm grateful for, you know, all of those guys and sort of where I came from musically. And yeah, it was a lot of creative energy pushing each other. - When you were like back then with that group, was there, were there moments that stick out where you're like, holy shit. Like what, like look at this thing that's happening or what we're doing or what we're making? Like what moment comes to mind that was really the kind of tip of that period of time? - Just like this is so cool. - Yeah, just like yeah, when you felt like you and your buddies are looking around like, dude, this is how did this turn into this? - Well, I mean, yeah, we were just making these little tapes and we were very sort of, I would say amateurish in our approach and stuff like that. But we had so much hutzpah and so much energy that it seemed to work out. I mean, you know, like we got flown out to Japan a couple times in like 2001, 2001, 2002, something around there by DJ Crush who was like a famous hip-hop DJ over there. And we ended up like wrapping on his album. So he flew us out for like his like release show and some other show. So we wrapped it to shows and, you know, and we got like treated super well, like taken to crazy like, just like all you can eat, like incredible, you know, Izzakayas and sushi restaurants and stuff and wind and dine. I mean, just like really nice hotels and you know, we got kind of spoiled real fast. We're like 21 years old, you know, like, but yeah, that was pretty cool. But you know, this article just came out in the wake of, you know, the new Y album release of this guy, like sort of tracing the sort of drippings from like the quote unquote Y universe, you know, basically collaborations I had done over the years. And, you know, he put some old songs on there that I hadn't heard in 10, 15 years, you know, and it was just kind of like, some of them were a little cringy for me and some of them I was just like, damn man, this is like so cool. You know, like if I get out of outside of myself and just hear these, you know, these kids playing around, you know, so yeah, that was a treat. I don't know. - Where was that article? - Oh, now you're really challenging me. I think it was- - I'll take a look. I can flood. - Was it flood? I think it might have been flood. I can't remember which one that was, yeah. - Yeah. What stood out as like kind of surprisingly good for you? - Well, I had done all these remixes with alias RIP. I did like two remixes and like that he kind of produced and I wrapped or sang on. And then one that I remember he mixed, but I think it sounded like I had produced it, but he had, I think he mixed it. And I think I sang the vocals at his house if I remember correctly. - Was one of those well water black? - Well, that's another thing. That was like a collab we did for his album. So yeah, I liked all that stuff was really cool to hear. There's this song called "Canada" that I did with my brother and dose one and gel from those two guys from, it was like themselves and why, like a little like collab. And like I wrote it with Adam basically and then it was produced by my brother and gel. - Yeah, that actually sticks out as something that like I think that really stood the test of time. I've never, you know, I've never heard Adam like that. It's very tender and sweet. It's like about a breakup that he had and he basically gave me like a stack of words about this breakup and like it was so like rife. You know, like it was so intense. And I basically just went through and chose the parts of it that I liked and put and turned it into a song like that. And then he sang it. And yeah, I like basically edited and wrote the melody. - I don't think I've heard that track and it-- - I recommend it. - Now, I will definitely check it out. And he went on to be to do a lot of stuff with Malwulf, right? - Yeah, he worked for Malwulf for a while. And now he is doing a ton of video game stuff. You know, he's like writing video games and making the music for video games and like the Foley sounds and stuff. So yeah, he's kind of got a dream job. - Yeah, so when you, okay, so from that time all the way into this new album, you have gone through all kinds of different stuff and it's been a wild creative journey. A lot of people that if they're not familiar with you, they may not know that at least how I think of you as like a lyricist, lyricist. You've influenced and inspired some really incredible people that are die-hard fans of you. Things that come to mind are, you know, I know Lord was inspired by you, some mega pop star. And you know, you have a poster in "Always Sunny", Glen Howard tends a big fan. I wondered if looking back throughout that period of time, if you could identify like one of the flashiest things that at the time was like, this is crazy. And then also the most meaningful throughout that journey of like this moment really mattered as you've been releasing albums as why over the past, I don't know how long has why I've been in, been together. - Well, I guess why was like the first thing I started doing? So it was like 97, yeah, it was like, my first tape was called "Why" and that was, yeah 97. And then just kind of, I started sort of adding people, other people to it, subsequently like, you know, 2002, 2003, we kind of started four or five, I don't know. We kind of kept adding. But yeah, flashiest, I don't know man, you know, things happen, there's always like external things. And I think it's important to not get wrapped up in that stuff. Like, I mean, it's pretty fucking awesome that that Alopecia poster, which was like an album of ours, you know, has been in "Always Sunny" in Philadelphia for the last like four seasons or something. It's been in Charlie's apartment. And that's pretty incredible. But, you know, you don't want to get caught up in that sort of thing like as like your identity or something like that. It's just a cool little byproduct. I remember always there were like rumors of like Elijah Wood like buying cloud debt at Amoeba. You know, like the Amoeba employees would hit us up like, yo, Elijah Wood just bought cloud debt or whatever. You know, and I remember that was like a huge, you know, just a weird thing early on that seemed pretty cool. I don't know, I've gotten-- - And I'm kind of contrasting that with what is the most, what are the most meaningful things that maybe aren't those things? Because those things stick out to fans or maybe markers from the outside. But, you know, I'm comparing that to what have been the things that have maybe mattered most to you. - I think it's like relationship stuff. I think it's like, you know, making friends with people that I can relate to, but also just connecting with people through the music. Like, I mean, just even in terms of this new album, like the amount of people that have hit me up and like been like, you know, dude, I can like relate to this so much. And like, it's just so healing to hear someone else say this stuff. And, you know, these are the same kind of things I've been going through lately. I mean, I just think that's actually just a really big deal that is easy to sort of gloss over or like, I don't know, let just slip past you. But I think like, if you actually sit with that for a minute, that's kind of why I'm doing this, you know, is to connect. Like, otherwise, why would I release this stuff? You know what I mean? I'm gonna have to make a living. That's something too. But like, you know, I can make a much better living doing a thousand other things, you know? So yeah, it is a labor of love and it is, and it is a way to connect. Like, I go through stuff, everyone goes through stuff. And I think it makes us feel better when we can, you know, sort of relate on it rather than being isolated with it. (upbeat music) Massive thanks to Squarespace. Squarespace is an all-in-one website platform that makes making a website easy peasy. For a moment, creative websites were kind of looking all the same and I really wanted to break out of the templity look. Then I heard that Squarespace has this new fluid engine. And boy, am I glad I checked it out because this thing is what I always dreamed making a website could be like for me. Drag and drop stuff and then drag it all over the place, text, images, videos. You can put it wherever you want. Layer it up, tear it up. Everything I cooked up in my mind I could figure out how to do without any knowledge of coding. Got a lot of comments like, "Hey, who helped you build this?" And I was like, "Squarespace is fluid engine, baby." You can see it at antijpsi.com and head to squarespace.com for a free trial and build your own site. And when you're ready to launch, you can get 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain with promo code PetTalk, all one word, all caps. You know, I know you have been pretty public about having over throughout the life of the band, going through health stuff. You've changed labels a couple times. You've had to navigate the really tricky relationship between you and your music and your fans and then your music and the media and all, it's just a, there's all of this complexity around creating stuff, especially in this kind of public way. And I wondered if throughout that whole journey, if now releasing this new record independently and kind of on your own again, if that feels like a full circle moment back to the early days when you were just putting stuff out, are you feeling that? - Yeah, I think that it does feel kind of that way. And I was just talking to Brent, you know, my manager the other day about sort of future plans, like, you know, not like concrete, but just like the idea of how we could do stuff. And it is a lot more freeing, you know, we're like, let's just like, once this album dies down a bit, like let's just start just like throwing a song out here and there, you know what I mean? Rather than being super precious about stuff, being a little more relaxed and we can do anything we want whenever we want, you know what I mean? Like there's no, we don't have to adhere to any label schedule or anything like that. Look, I'm super grateful for all the labels that I've worked with, you know, from Joyful Noise just now to Anticon, of course, and Lex and, you know, big Dada, Ninja Tune, you know, mush, even the, you know, things didn't always go great in every situation, but I'm always grateful for the opportunity and I'm grateful for someone's desire to help out and to release stuff, you know, like no one's like swimming in dough over this stuff. It's just, you know, that's the reality of music these days, but it's a passion for all these people, so yeah. - And when you're thinking about releasing this album versus where you were when you were putting out that early stuff with Anticon, what do you think that journey gave you or changed in you to where this current Yoni has something different that that younger one didn't? Can you put your finger on anything major that you're bringing to the table either as a person on this release or as a creator? Like, do you feel like you've been changed through that process? - I just think that probably the biggest change is, if I listen to early stuff and I listen to this stuff now, is within myself just being more like, I don't know, and having gone through a lot of like difficult stuff, like, I think I've become more compassionate. I think I've become more like able to see like other people's sides of the story, you know, and consider that more. I think, you know, there were aspects of even like Alopecia, which wasn't that long ago, it was 15 years ago, still a long time ago, but, you know, there are aspects of that album that, you know, are kind of like a cervic or like angry. And, you know, I use a lot of humor, you know, to sort of mask that, and I think it works well. And I think, you know, I still stand by that material. But I think that on this newest one, and maybe the recent ones, I just think that I've been more able to see other people's sides of things or something. - Yeah, and it connects with kind of the question I was most excited to ask you about, which was in the "Right Side Out" series, we did one episode that was a deep dive into parts work, like family and internal family systems, and this idea of seeing your internal self as a bunch of different pieces, different. I think maybe the way you would describe it is almost like characters that show up in your work. And we talk in that episode about the idea of how we all go around projecting ourselves onto people. And our art is like a safer, more constructive place to do that projecting and put those different things onto the page and work through them. And then I've heard you in the past talk about how there are autobiographical elements of your work always. But a lot of times there's characters or exaggerations or manifestations of or exaggerating parts of yourself through fiction. And then I realized that I think you called one of the shadowy sides, Mr. Fits. And I got thinking about this and I was like, what you just said is an interesting segue into this discussion because I'm wondering if this ability to see different sides of the equation also impacts kind of a growth in your writing because all of a sudden you have almost more hues and colors to pull from because you're not writing from only a couple of perspectives, you're able to imagine way more perspectives. And so do you feel, because to me, maybe you could talk a little bit about Mr. Fits and that kind of stuff, but to me, what's really interesting about this latest record is that it feels like it has the voices of characters from your whole discography versus, I don't know how you think about something like Alopecia, but that seems more less perspectives. I don't know how many I would say, but less expansive in all these different parts. Does that make any sense? It's kind of a huge rant. - Well, no, no, I think, it makes me think of the invisible things characters actually. - Yeah, yeah. - Because you're able to do the same kind of thing with that, where you're able to kind of tease out these perhaps different aspects of yourself and create these really sort of self-contained beings. And I would say, I'm not always super conscious of it within my work. You know, Mr. Fits, Pontius Fits, Pony Fits, that's the one guy that I've certainly been able to tease out and say, okay, well, this is like this shadowy self. This is like this angry, selfish, aspect of me that I notice rearing his head within some of these songs. And even now I'll sort of, I'll pitch his voice down a little bit. Like, you know, this is like this dark self, you know. When I realize that that's who I'm dealing with in a song. And, but yeah, otherwise, you know, there's often the sort of the person that's trying to reach towards his higher self, you know. I don't know if I ever really sort of talk through the higher self, but yeah. I mean, I think internal family systems, you know, I know a little bit about that. I remember reading a book that talked about that a while back. But yeah, it's an interesting thought. And I think it just happens naturally where different songs are told from different perspectives. And even kind of maybe focused sometimes on the perspective of someone else in that story. Or I can sort of think about their perspective seeing me or my character talk. - And I mean, the way you're describing it sounds a lot like how the Jungian thinkers think about dreams where you have all of these voices show up, these entities in your dreams that are often different sides of yourself, even if they appear as different people in your life or strangers or whatever. And it's happening on a subconscious level and knowing the way that you tend to write music. It seems like it's tapping into that deeper self that's like less literal, less lingual, more kind of impressionistic or something. And so they've kind of evolved over time in your work. And I even was thinking about how with Moline, how that, if I was gonna define that character, I was thinking the exact same thing that you said, which is this reaching for the higher self, trying to find transcendent version of yourself. And then this latest record, the well that I fell into, it feels like it shifts in and out of these things in a way that almost feels more whole because it doesn't feel as segmented as some of the other records do. - Perhaps so, I do feel like I was definitely striving on like Moline, that came out in 2017. And I was-- - Great record. It's got some phenomenal songs. - Thank you. That was like amid the meditation, ayahuasca, DMT craze of the late teens. And I was right there with it and Midnight Gospel, maybe that was 2020, but Duncan Trussell, Romdas, meditation, Buddhism, DMT, you know, and that had that kind of feeling and maybe striving to be that thing. And this one is a bit back down to basics of like, well, yeah, maybe there's some of that and I've retained some of that, you know, sort of positive wisdom, but you know, I'm still in the damn trenches, you know what I mean, of my own sort of mental health. And in interpersonal relationships, I'm hardly a saint, you know, so like still dealing with that stuff. And then this album certainly, there's a lot of, you know, I have a lot of guilt and regret and shame and all that. And I think all those things show up for sure. - And it also, as I was thinking through this, I was thinking about, I was reflecting on how those different parts, one of the point of Right Side Out to Me is that you're a good thing to cultivate and it coincides with one of the IFS books is called No Bad Parts. And the idea is that none of these parts are bad. They all have good intentions. Sometimes they're not adaptive in the way that they influence you. And I started thinking about the shadowy character, Mr. Fitz, and thinking, okay, well, what could be good about this character? And it connected back to, you know, when Alipisha came out, I think that's when I discovered why I was in the UK. And I realized that that record played a significant part in my journey because at the time, I think I was really trying to identify with a part of myself that was not the whole, was this part of myself that like, I'm a good boy and I do good things and I'm trying to be better. And I think that record hit me in this, like a curveball kind of thing where I was like, but this is also who I am. Like I know, like there's something, and it was interesting too, because it was coming right in the midst of indie music, being very like twee and like shiny and all that. And so I don't know what I'm saying other than even that side did a lot of good for me because I think it kind of helped me never lose touch with those different parts of myself in a way. And yeah, I wonder if the expressing this side of yourself, especially when it wasn't the popular thing to do, if it, what's your relationship to that? 'Cause it could be very like dualistic of Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde kind of thing. How is your relationship to all these pieces developed over time as you've made music about it? - I don't think it is hackle and jidey. I just said that wrong, but. - Jekyll and jide, yeah. - But yeah, no, I think it's more fluid than that. And I think, you know, look, I can relate to you a lot. Like I've gone my whole life trying to be a good boy. And like, I remember the first time in elementary school getting chided and it was like a shock. And I remember because I was like straight A student and like just like teacher's pet every single class. And I remember one time just maybe like talking to the person next to me. And I think it was more like them talking to me and me just like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, whatever. And like the teacher, he was like, Jonathan, you know, be quiet or whatever. And I remember my heart sunk, you know? So like I've gone through my whole life and I grew up so religious and like, you know, you see, they're having their hell. And you know, it's like, I grew up all my life trying to be a good boy. And I think in a way that was the impetus for me to have to sort of display this all this fucking shame and like anger, you know, in front of as many people as I could, you know, like the first line on Alopecia, I'm not a ladies man, I'm a landmine. Like, you know, which always I've had this fucking dark shit brewing in me at all times, you know what I mean? And like, and yet on the surface in public and in front of people, I try to be good. And you know, and like, and I am, you know, I am loving and compassionate and all that stuff too. So there is a duality, but it's more like a plurality and it's more like fluid, you know what I mean? But yeah, when I listen back to Alopecia, you know, I think in a lot of ways it's driven by that character. And many of the songs, not just the song called "The Fall of Mr. Fits," which is like, you know, and there's another sort of "Fall of Mr. Fits" on the new album, which is called "What's Me." - Which I, it's probably my favorite currently. - Okay, cool. It's like a "Yacht Rock" song. It's like a "Yacht Rock" song, but it kind of like, you know, details this sort of situation where this, you know, this guy ends up leaving a strip club with a stripper and, you know, getting pulled over in this little Indiana town. ♪ If I am the one to bring you down, Jonathan ♪ ♪ It might happen on a dimlet axis road ♪ ♪ If I am the one to bring you down, my friend ♪ ♪ It's nothing personal on the one who needs your mums ♪ ♪ It seems very unlikely ♪ ♪ That the will, will, will, will, will, will, will, will be ♪ ♪ It seems more likely ♪ ♪ That the impulse to pursue the pleasure ♪ ♪ Carely for the pleasure will be ♪ ♪ What's me ♪ ♪ What's me ♪ - Yeah, I guess I'm trying to marry that stuff in my real life, too, you know? Like, I think music became this outlet for me to sort of release those things. And I think when I'll be truly healthy is when I accept that guy, you know, and the other aspects in my just everyday life and in my relationships, and, you know, don't feel so, so, I don't know, just be okay with it all. - Yeah, well, you know, as a fan, I only get to see kind of from the outside, but tracking the journey over the past 15 years, it seems like it just seems like there's evident a lot of work happening in the music. And I'm really inspired by kind of the way that you've used your art to dialogue with yourself in that way, because I think it's easy for me to get really attached to the external and the extrinsic kind of goals and that kind of stuff. And that's not all bad. But watching you work out stuff through these characters over the past 15 years has been really inspiring. And then, you know, getting to be, I told you last time we talked, like AOK Ohio and then this new record are some of my favorite things you ever made, probably my favorite songs are on these two records. And I think it's a, in a world where, especially music, people overemphasize the importance of stuff that you make when you're young. You're somebody who continues to show up and make stuff and get better and keep doing interesting things. And so it's really inspiring to me to continue to work shit out in the work. So thank you. - Yeah, I mean, you know, think about for yourself. Like, yeah, like you're a genius craftsman. Like, you know, you're able to, you can shit something out, like nothing, but like the stuff that, that like, you really connect to within your work or the reasons why you started doing your work, you're working shit out. You're working your own shit out in there somehow. And I think that's true for like, you know, most artists, I would think that's one of the big reasons we're doing that. We're working shit out for ourselves. And then we're sort of like, you know, displaying that to the public and saying, "Here's me. This is who I am." And this is, this is, you know, I mean, there are also reasons to do, to sort of flex the craft side. And I do that sometimes. But I think that that deepest stuff is important work, you know, for even just internally. And I don't feel right. For me personally, I don't feel right. You know, if I haven't been sort of working stuff out, you know, in song or whatever, it's my way to sort of figure out where I'm at, you know? - Yeah, definitely. So I love the new record. I wondered if you could maybe just speak to a little bit about what this record is so people can have a way into it. And also maybe just share what you're most excited about it. - Yeah, I still haven't quite figured exactly how to talk about this record, but I'll say that it kind of chronicles, you know, it mirrors my life in a way, but it also, you know, is a work of fiction, and/or autofick, we could say, you know, it kind of, you know, follows someone on the first couple of years of dealing with a divorce in the album, you know, and sort of figuring out how to navigate that. And, you know, mourning that loss and figuring out how and when to move on, you know, the back and forth of on again, off against stuff and, you know, how to sort of think about the acts and how to accept that she's gonna, you know, she has to live her life and be happy. And yeah, I think that's kind of what the album is, essentially. - Yeah, and what are you most excited about it in terms of maybe what's unique about this one versus the rest of the records? - I just liked the relationship between all the songs, like everything kind of happened very, very naturally. I would say Alopecia had a similar thing where it was like, there was like weird kismet that would happen where I'd be like, oh shit, like I'm talking about this on this song and on this song, like, these two songs relate in, you know, these ways or whatever. I think that same kind of thing sort of started to happen on this album. And once you're sort of in flow state, I do find that that happens and you just go with it and you take it farther. When you realize something's happening, you sort of make it a little more deliberate. I just think it's a good body of work that I feel really, really good about and I think it's relatable, you know? - Yeah, it is. And also it seems like that flow state kind of self-perpetuated into a bunch of other songs and you guys have more stuff on the way that is kind of already in the works, am I right? - Yeah, that's right. I, yeah, I've been going, I slowed down a little bit, you know, I had some health stuff this spring so I kind of have slowed down a little after that stuff. But yeah, I'm hoping that after tour I can get back. Sometimes tour will sort of do something weird to me where I've been exposed to the people that are listening too much and have been submitted to too much applause and then things get weird, you know? But I'm gonna try to keep my meditation game up and hopefully that'll sort of be a bit of a shield against any of that weird ego stuff slipping in. But yeah, I don't know, I'm feeling pretty good work-wise these days, I'm pretty able to slip into the mode. - That's awesome, that's great to hear. And also people should go check out the album and also follow you on sub-stack and sign up to the newsletter where they can also get little drips of these future songs coming out, right? - Yeah, so thank you for mentioning that. The sub-stack is yoniwulf.substack.com and it's where I log my songwriting, essentially, like in real time. So when you hear an album like these songs that are on the well I fell into, you know, and maybe you can relate to this about releasing a book or something, you know, these are a couple years old now. So what I do first is I write a song and then make a demo and then that sits around and we collect, you know, groups of the demos that make sense together and then we record an album and mix it, not, you know, all that takes time. But the sub-stack is real-time demoing, like real-time songwriting demos that people can check out years before they will be released to the public. And some of them will never come out if they suck or they're not, you know, if they're like halfway TC. But, you know, we're like, eh, let's not put that on the album. You know, then that's just, that's what the song is, is that demo. So yeah, I recommend people check that out if they're interested, for sure. - And I love when you're doing the lo-fi stuff too. It reminds me of early stuff and-- - Yeah. - I love the, I'm a proud supporter and I love the Griffith Park Observatory one. I can't remember what it's called. - That is called Parks Tour, Parks Tour. It's just about me being in beautiful places, sad and alone. - I listened to that one in a hundred times. I was like, dude, I freaking love this. Is that gonna be something else later or is that just like-- - I'm, I'd like to, I'd like to turn that into something. We'll see, I'll talk to the committee and, you know, see-- - Okay, well that's my poet, tell him, I said I love that one. But yeah, everybody should go follow you on that. Thank you for making time to do this. Everyone should go check out the new record and good luck on the tour. I hope I'm hoping to come see you in Cincinnati. - That's like, yeah, the end of September, I'll guess list you and everything. Just let me know, you know, Andy, every time, it's just always a pleasure talking to you, man. So I really appreciate you. You have, you're just a very thoughtful guy and yeah, love you, man. Thanks, buddy, you too. (upbeat music) Massive thanks to Yoni Wolf for taking the time to sit down with me and have this chat. It was a freaking blast and I'm coming back at the end of this episode to give you a little CTIA, a call to inaction. We're at the tail end of our slow and steady summer series where we've taken the past couple of months to slow things down and focus more on our wellbeing and remembering why we make creative work in the first place. So most episodes of the show, we do a thing called a CTA but it's different than other CTA's. It's a creative call to adventure and we talk about how to put the ideas from the episode into action right now. But this series, we've been doing a CTIA, a call to inaction so we can take the pressure off, rest up, do less, be more and just kind of recalibrate ourselves creatively. So today's CTIA is called no mitt for these pitches. Here's what it's about. Apart from catching up with Yoni after the right side out series, I was really excited to chat with him about the new album and part of that was because I just loved it and also because I knew they were gonna release it independently. And I've seen other indie bands like Los Campitinos go back to a more self-released model, a more indie model. And for me, as someone who got into illustration and design because of indie music, this is just super exciting to see bands go back to the indie model, own their music, own their creative direction and it kind of feels like nature is healing because of it. I also recently saw a clip of M. Night Shyamalan talking about how he made the Switch to funding his own movies and not relying on these outside supporters to decide which of his ideas deserved to get made and which didn't. And it reminded me of this massive mindset shift that I had in my own creative journey with making kids books. For the longest time, I was pitching and pitching and pitching and trying to get any publisher to buy a book from me. And eventually the thing that shifted wasn't another pitch that was better than the other pitches. It's when I quit creating pitches and determine myself to make books whether anyone else bought them or not. And here's why I think that Switch worked and how it led to getting the books that I've made over the past few years published. Looking back, I can see that when I was pitching, I wasn't coming up with book ideas. I was coming up with pitch ideas. I wasn't coming up with books I wanted to make. I was coming up with pitches that I thought might sell. And more than this, I wasn't interested in making those pitches into books if nobody else was. When I shifted this mindset and I filtered that creativity, not into pitches, but into the actual books themselves and just started getting to work, it changed everything for me. So this shift is the one I'm proposing for you. Here is your CTIA and it's no myth for these pitches. This is a lyric from one of my favorite Y songs. It's called Torpedo or Crown. It is the second song you hear on this podcast every single episode. And here's what I want you to do. I want you to put the pitches down. There is no myth for pitches. There's nobody out there trying to catch and collect amazing pitches. There are people though that collect movies and books and albums and want to support and steward and grow really great ideas around those things. And pitches are these things that turn into those pilot episodes of a TV series that are incredible, that sold it to the network, but then can't follow up with anything after that because it's really just a pitch. It's really just a pilot. So drop the pitches, think about what are the ideas that you have been carrying around for years, not because you actually want to do them, but because they just have this crazy good hook and people look up when you mention them and they might have this amazing book cover, but there is no book. There is no meat behind the title or the cover. Or maybe you love these pitches and you really do love these ideas. You don't need to drop them, but you need to get really serious about taking that independent spirit and owning this project and say, I'm going to make this work, whether anybody else is interested or not. And I'm gonna flesh this thing out and I'm gonna work on it in either way. What does it look like for you to admit that there are no mitt for these pitches? There's no one that wants to catch a half-baked idea, but instead you either drop it or you commit to making it a reality with or without help. And if you get making this thing and you wanna pitch it and see if any other partners wanna come along and add to the project, not make it happen, not make it valuable, but help you in your process, that's cool. But don't let that be the destination. That's gotta just be a pit stop where you are picking up people along the path, adding people to your creative party as you continue down your trail. All right, massive thanks to Yoni Wolf. Go listen to the well that I fell into. It is, it's just an incredible album and I've been using a few tracks. Brand new has been the perfect running song for me recently. It's epic, it's transcendent, it's spiritual. And don't forget to sign up to Yoni's substack at yoniwolf.substack.com. Thank you so much, Yoni. I really appreciate you, man. And I just love everything you're doing. Keep it up, dude. ♪ You watch Bachelorette in bed ♪ ♪ Why ♪ ♪ I smoke about the exercise ♪ ♪ It's true I had my chakra to boom, boom, boom ♪ ♪ When I was young and in bloom ♪ (upbeat music) (upbeat music) Creative PEPTALK is a weekly podcast designed to help you build a thriving creative practice. But that's the thing. It only works if it's an actual practice. It has to become a habit. We make this show every single week so that your creativity can go from being a thing that you do sometimes to a creative discipline to immerse you in a world of creatives that are doing the same, where those kind of behaviors are normal. One way we help you stick to this is by sending you the new episodes via email to your inbox every single week so that you never miss a week. And we often add bonus content like pictures and links and extra related stuff to the episode that you're not gonna get just from the apps. Go to AndyJPizza.substack.com to sign up to the free email newsletter and I'll have the accountability to stay on the creative path and keep this street going and hopefully it will inspire you to do the same. And if you sign up right now, you'll get immediate free access to our e-booklet, The Creative Career Path. It's a step-by-step roadmap for creating a project that is designed to unlock your dream creative clients and opportunities. Sign up at AndyJPizza.substack.com. And let's keep this creative habit together. Creative PepTalk is part of the Pod Glamorit Network. You can learn more about Pod Glamorit at www.podglamorit.com. This has been another episode of Creative PepTalk, a weekly podcast companion for your creative journey. Hey, it's dangerous to go along, take this podcast with you week in and week out by subscribing to the show to keep you company and keep the best creative practices top of mind so that little by little week in and week out, you can make progress in your own creative practice. I'm your host, A.J. Pizza. I'm a New York Times best-selling author and illustrator, and I make this show not because I have it all figured out, but because as a squishy, creative artist type that's prone to big emotions, it takes a whole lot of creativity to just get out of bed sometimes. So every week I put out the ideas that are helping me stay disciplined and stay excited and have helped me stay on this creative path for the past 15 years plus, in hopes that it might help someone else or at the very least help them feel less alone on their own creative journey. Massive thanks to Yoni Wolf and the band Y for our theme music. Thanks to Connor Jones of Pending Beautiful for editing and sound design. Thanks to Sophie Miller for podcast assistance of all sorts and most importantly, thanks to you for listening and until we speak again, stay peped up. (gentle music) (gentle music) (gentle music) (bell chimes) [BLANK_AUDIO]
A chat with Yoni Wolf of the band WHY? - I have been a massive fan for YEARS and you've heard their music every week on the show! You may also have heard more of the the band in our Right Side Out Series.
This episode is for you if you are sick and tired of waiting for someone to let you do the creative work you want to be making, if you need inspiration for how to put more of yourself into your work or if you need a fresh helping of that feeling of why we do creative work at all - and stick until the end for a CTIA called NO MITT FOR THESE PITCHES on the mindset shift that helped me go from a place of fruitlessly pitching tons unsuccessful book ideas to publishers and into a place where I’ve been consistently making books for the past four years!
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SHOW NOTES:
Co-Writing / Editing: Sophie Miller sophiemiller.co
Audio Editing / Sound Design: Conner Jones pendingbeautiful.co
Soundtrack / Theme Song: Yoni Wolf / WHY? whywithaquestionmark.com
WHY?
https://whywithaquestionmark.com/
WHY?'s latest album: The Well that I Fell Into
https://lnk.to/twifi
Yoni Wolf's Substack
https://yoniwolf.substack.com/
ANTICON
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anticon
Adam "Doesone" Drucker
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doseone
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