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Additional taxes, fees, and restrictions apply. See Mint Mobile for details. This episode is brought to you by our good friends at NFL Sunday Ticket on YouTube TV. I'm sure by now you've all got back into your Sunday routines, but they could be even better. With NFL Sunday Ticket and YouTube TV, you get the most live NFL games all in one place every game every Sunday, and you can even watch up to four different games at once with MultiView, one of my favorite inventions of this decade. It's exactly what you need to catch all the action. Make your Sundays more magical and also YouTube TV is great. I got it this year. It's awesome. Sign up now at youtube.com/bs device and content restrictions apply. Local and national games on YouTube TV and a false Sunday Ticket for out-of-market games excludes digital-only games. Welcome to rates and barrels. It's Monday, July 15th. Derek VanRiper, Enosarris, and special guest Melissa Locker joins us today as we discuss day one of the MLB Draft. Melissa, thank you so much for joining us today. Thanks for having me on. Did I read this right? This is the 20th draft you've covered now. Yeah, I think 2004 was my first, so if I'm doing my math right, it's either 20 or 21. Awesome. A lot of that, of course, focused on the A's over the years, too, but a lot to talk about in this class. A college-heavy top end of the class, which is exciting, I think, from a fantasy perspective, because those players tend to move to the big leagues a lot faster, so if you're in a keeper or dynasty league, you can look at these players and maybe see them helping you buy this time next year, or since the Angels picked 8th maybe by the end of this season. In the case of Christian Moore, we'll talk about a little bit later, but let's start at the top of the board, where Travis Bezana was the first overall pick of the Guardians. He was certainly in that conversation all spring. The interesting thing for me with Bezana is this, he's a second baseman. We don't normally think of second baseman as early first-round picks, and maybe that's the result of shift restrictions and being less of a place where you hide someone in the dirt than it was even a few years ago, but of course Bezana goes first overall because of his bat. What type of impact are you expecting from Bezana as he makes his way through that guardian system and eventually becomes a prominent part of that lineup? Yeah, I think eventually is probably quicker than it would be. I think he's a guy that's going to get there really fast. He's very polished. He's even played some pro ball in the summer leagues and also in Australia before he even came to the United States. So he's used to high-level competition. He's got a great swing, great pitch recognition. I think we put a lot of value on defensive positioning for the draft because you want to have a lot of options. Guys, the play shortstop, guys at play center field can default to other things. But I think when you're looking at players that you kind of know are going to get there fast and they're going to play a certain position, all positions are valuable. And if you can put somebody in there and say he's going to be an all-star at this position, I'm not so sure that you have to worry as much about the fact that he's just limited to the one because there's not as much of a need to have a safety net with some of these guys. And so I think that's what you saw. This is in the class that had a ton of super-tools-y, high-projection guys. But I think you do see a lot of guys who could fit into big lineups pretty quickly. And that's what you really saw, especially at the top of this draft. That's interesting. Is there kind of a mini trend here with the second base thing? I mean, JJ Weatherholt and Christian Moore also second baseman. And traditionally, I feel like a second base has been kind of a place that organizations find a guy rather than draft a guy or try to require a guy. It's more like, used to be a shortstop. Used to be a third baseman, didn't have enough range, didn't have enough arm. Why is it a little bit of a ding on them athletically that they didn't play short for their teams? I do see that to some extent they're from powerhouses, like from big colleges, did they have great short stops on their teams that they kind of pushed them to second? Or do you see there is a little bit of a question about athleticism given that they played second in college? Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of time it has to do with arm strength and kind of being limited to second base if the arm isn't there. Weatherholt did actually play a decent amount of short stop this year and would have played more had he not missed all that time with the hamstring. And I think there is some thought that he'll go out as a shortstop and you'll sort of see what happens there. I think Christian Moore has played a little bit of third base too. I think he might move around. He could even be an option in left field. But I think the biggest trend more is that you're looking at the fact that you do have nine spots on the field and you want production from those nine spots. And I do think that teams are able to kind of coach up defense a little bit better maybe than they used to be able to in the past. I don't think you necessarily see guys relying on their pure athleticism and even more to be great defenders. I think there's a lot of teaching and coaching involved that gets guys to coach up. I mean, there's a lot of guys playing short stop in the big leagues now that we're not necessarily even short stops in the early minors, which is interesting. That's kind of a different trend. So I think that's part of it. But I think it's more just a matter of looking for the best hitters that you can find available. And that's what you really saw yesterday. Yeah, I want to skip the second pick for now and talk about the guy that went third because it was the Golden Spikes winner, Charlie Condon out of Georgia going to Colorado. And we know like hitters going into Colorado get that extra bump from Coors Field. But what do you think of Condon from hit tool perspective? How difficult do you think it might be for him to make the adjustments of having to hit it out to two, but then go away from altitude where pitches move differently. We've seen a lot of players struggle with that over the years. And Condon's a guy that had some pretty sharp home road split string is time at Georgia. Yeah, I mean, he's an interesting guy just in general, because he didn't really have much of a profile coming into Georgia. You know, he walked on to the program. He is in the guy that was heavily recruited. So he's sort of in like an underdog kind of late bloomer type. And I think it's a little hard sometimes to look at like, you know, past trends with someone like that, because it came on so quickly. On the other hand, you know, I think if you were looking for like a one, one sort of profile in a traditional draft, he was that guy in the sense that not only is he, you know, a power hitter who's got a good hit tool, very athletic, but he does have a chance to stay up the middle and play in center field. Maybe more likely to move over to right. But like, I think, you know, there's some athleticism there could even get some time at third base. I've seen, you know, kind of comps to, you know, Chris Bryant. Obviously, they're hoping for the Cubs, Chris Bryant, not the Rockies, Chris Bryant, but, but I think, you know, those long levers, the power, you know, the ability to move around the field, just the pure athleticism. If he's able to continue the gains that he made at Georgia and carry those over, I think he's a really exciting player for Colorado. Does he have any similarities? I mean, I guess he's not as fast as Langford. Langford is more of a 65/70 runner, I guess. Yeah, I mean, I think he's not as fast, but he has a better arm. Like, Langford was always sort of a guy that you thought and have thought had to be put in left field a little bit because of the arm strength thing. So, you know, what you give away in one, you do another. And again, I think it's sort of similar to shortstop. There's a lot of center fielders playing center field in the big leagues right now, who you would not have pegged to be center fielders when they first came into the league. I think, again, teams are maximizing so much what they can get offensively from every position that you're seeing atypical players at a lot of different positions. So, he may be one of those more atypical, maybe Cody Bellinger-type center fielder, you know, that's not a guy that you would have imagined to be a center fielder, but he is, you know. It also occurs to me to ask you what you think about sort of trends in terms of moving guys fast. I feel like we're in a little bit of turbulence right now across baseball because it's still because of COVID because of the loss here in the minors. But I think also given stuff, you know, like literally like stuff plus or bat path grades or, you know, these, you know, kind of analytical process stats, there has been a little bit of like, hey, I don't care as much about the results in the minors. He's, he has three plus pitches. I think he's ready for the big leagues, right? He's doing, he's making those swing decisions and hitting the ball hard. I think we can move them up. Do you have a sense of like which organizations push guys further than other guys, you know, like other organizations, you know, the joke is the angels. I know. Jared Allyer for outliers. I mean, I think, I think my name baseball is in a really weird spot right now where, as you say, I think you can plug in a lot of these pitchers coming out of, you know, like say, double A into big league rotations, into big league bullpen, and know what you're almost going to get based on the fact of, you know, what you're seeing from all the analytics, the, you know, the pitch shapes and everything else that they're doing. Probably the, the mental side of it is the one thing you can't predict as much like who's going to wither under that, you know, pressure and who isn't. But it's a lot easier to translate what you're going to see in the big leagues with those pitchers, with the pitchers. With the hitters, though, it's really been hard because in part, those pitchers are moving so fast, there's no one good to face in the minor leagues. But you're almost at the point where you're looking at a situation where they're facing org guys, and you're trying to challenge hitters, and you're looking at the situation too, where hitters are moving so quickly, they're not learning to fail at different spots like they used to. So they're getting to the big leagues, they're failing for the first time, and there's not that sort of learned ability to know where to dig yourself out of it. I think, you know, at Jackson Holiday, you saw that a little bit. You know, you mentioned the Oakland A's, they're going to have an interesting decision coming up with Jacob Wilson, I think he's likely to get recalled in the next couple of weeks. And he just hasn't been challenged at any level in the minor leagues at all. But, you know, there are questions. Not to say there aren't questions. Yeah, there are questions about, you know, his pitch decisions and the ones that he tends to swing at, but he can hit all of them right now. And so, do you keep him in a situation where he's continually getting hits off of pitchers he shouldn't swing at? Or do you put him in the big leagues and actually, you know, have him face pitchers that can get him out with those pitches. And so, I think more and more organizations are having to make decisions like that, because there's just such a big difference between the top talent in the minor leagues right now and everybody else. And I don't think we've ever had such a huge skids in between those two. Not since I've been covering it. Given all that, do you have a pick in this, you know, top 10 or in this draft of moving faster? Yeah, I mean, you know, so it's a lot of it depends on need too, right? Like, I think Cleveland probably doesn't need to bring up somebody to their well, I mean, they could use help in certain situations. But I don't think Travis Manzan is going to be a guy they hope to help them, you know, win the pen of this year. But, you know, I think the angels are always going to be your pick to move guys. And not just Christian Moore, but you look at Chris Cortez, you know, you could see him and they're both pen pretty quickly. So, you know, it's, it's, these types of teams are going to, you know, going to make these decisions fast. But obviously, like Pittsburgh picking the first high school player and that came at pick nine, you know, Connor Griffin is going to not move quickly. And I think that's that was an interesting decision from the perspective of they do have this young core that's now starting to get to the big leagues and they've added somebody who isn't going to get there as fast. But definitely, I think had the most talent in this draft class. So, you know, that's the, that was another decision that they had to make where do you try to time up his timeline with Paul Skeens and the guys that they've got going on right now? Or do you look for the best player you can possibly get? And I think they went with the latter, which I don't think is necessarily the wrong decision, but it's just an interesting decision to have to have made. Yeah, because there's probably a case for the Pirates to have taken Trey Savage who fell the way to the Blue Jays at 20 in that spot because they could add him to their rotation within the next calendar year. And it wouldn't be that much of a stretch. I think Chase Burns is kind of interesting. He went second overall to the Reds. I remember seeing some numbers about his fastball. Absurd IVB. We talk about that all the time. A lot of ride on the fastball. It is important to point out the college baseball is a little bit different in the Major League Baseball. So there will be some fluctuations with things like that. You're going to see some numbers that aren't necessarily replicated in Pro Ball, but 20 inches a ride on a fastball even with a college ball is really impressive. Fantastic numbers from Chase Burns at Wake. Is he going to be unfairly comp to Paul Skeens who is just delivering an incredible rookie season for the Pirates right now? Because Burns had really dominant numbers in college and it does seem to have a big league arsenal that will help him move very quickly. I hope not. I mean, you know, I think it's sort of like when you see these draft shows and they start comping guys to Hall of Famers and All-Stars, like that's just not fair, right? Like there is only one Paul Skeens and he was a once-in-a-lifetime guy. You know, you might see a draft player like that, you know, every 10 years, every 20 years or whatever, but he's a unicorn. I think Chase Burns can be an outstanding Major League starter, but to compare him to Paul Skeens just, I don't think that would be fair. But, you know, that's that. I think, you know, he had such great stuff at Tennessee and then he goes to Wake Forest. They have that pitching lab. He puts a lot of work in. He's coming and it is an interesting situation to do. Some of these schools, these guys are getting to the big leagues with more data and understanding of what they're doing than some of these guys that have been in Pro Ball since they were in high school, right? So he's coming armed with knowing what he needs to do, of what has worked and what hasn't worked. And I have a feeling you get into, you know, what the Reds have or what you built there and things could even click faster for him. And what changes he'll see with the ride and everything else with the new ball should probably be more apparent to someone like him who's used to the data than maybe somebody who came from a program that didn't have a pitching lab like Wake Forest. He also has more traditional stuff with like a capital S than Skeens did. I mean, we had people talking about Skeens fastball shape. Burns doesn't have that question, you know, and in terms of, you know, being major league ready, having an 89, 90 mile an hour breaking ball, you know, he could be in the pen, I feel like today, it's just a question of third pitch, kind of feel getting through the order, you know, multiple times, you know, seeing what, seeing what the pro schedules way different than the college schedule, you know, so, you know, I could, I could see him moving pretty fast with that starter package, for sure. Yeah, and I think in, you know, that's what's so interesting about the major league draft, right? Like you have a situation where like Cleveland looking at one could have said, you know, we'll take this guy, put him in our bullpen. We need, yeah, we need and they could have, I mean, you know, realistically, like the Royals, I think was in 2014, right, where they did that with Greg Holland. I mean, I think there are situations where, you know, maybe for the history of the franchise, if you thought this was your year, you know, you might try to do something like that. That's so not the guardians though, right? It's probably not the best thing long-term, like you only get a number that this is the first time they pick number one in the history of the Cleveland, you know, franchise. That's a long time. So, you're not going to get it wrong to be again. Exactly. So, I mean, if you get a guy that's going to be hitting, you know, 320 with, you know, 15, 20 homers and, you know, like what you can see from Bizana year after year, I mean, I think that's probably worth, you know, kind of planting a little bit on the chance of having burned your bullpen this year. Hello, people. I am Kim Malera here, host of the Athletic FC Podcast. The new Premier League and European football seasons are here and the Athletic FC has you covered. Join me, David Ornstein, Phil Hay and the most stacked footballing newsroom ever assembled every Monday to Thursday as we take a deep dive into the biggest football story of the day. Then every Friday, Adam Laventon and our club reporters will preview the potential tactics, drama and jeopardy riding on the biggest game from that coming weekend. Check us out wherever you get your podcasts from for free. We hope you can join us for what is set to be another blockbuster season. I was talking to an AGM and was talking about, I forget, you know, what pick or something. And I was talking about need. And I was like, y'all don't like pick based on need, do you? And he was like, well, it can be like a tiebreaker sometimes, you know, if you're like, well, we have a great this and, you know, we could use a great that instead, you know. But I also think of Sam Blum's scathing piece this past week about the angels all picture draft. It was, it was pretty good. I mean, the proof is in the pudding. They took all pictures. Everyone was like, what is happening? Is this really, are they really doing this? They had all draft full of pictures. And the only good ones that they picked are on other teams, it looks like. So it is, it is interesting when you look at this draft, and I think it was fairly vanilla in terms of how it, how it turned out. Nobody did anything weird. That was one of the Keith's big takeaways was like, you know, of the top 30, I had 25 in my top 30, you know, of the top of the first one's pick, nobody was not in my top 100, you know. And I think we've seen, I was trying to think of the Red Sox first round pick. Yeah, Nick York was like, that was way out of that field. We did. Do we have a Nick York this year? I feel like the closest is your savage dropping a little bit. Yeah, I mean, Braylon Payne went 17 to Milwaukee. And I think they didn't necessarily think he was going to be a first round pick. But he was going to be very certainly a day one pick. And I think what Milwaukee did the rest of the, you know, day one sort of made sense for like what number they're going to get paying the sign for is going to allow them to blow other things. And they've done that, you know, last year they got Cooper Pratt in the sixth round, and he's, he's already in the futures game. And it was, you know, partly because they were able to save some money up top. And so if they knew they wanted him anyway and they weren't sure they were going to get him in their next pick, you know, it makes sense to get him at a discount there and then use that money to do some different things later on. But yeah, I don't think there was anything that was like crazy out to left field in terms of players that were there. And there certainly wasn't anyone scrambling at the desk looking for notes last night. Like you every once in a while see that situation. You know, the Nick York one was interesting too, because like I had done a little piece on like Bay Area, you know, draft prospects for 2020. And he was a guy that had come up from folks here who had seen him right before the pandemic. They were very excited about him. But, you know, pandemic shut everything down, he had come off an injury. And so I think that was a matter of like that year was so strange that like the Red Sox probably saw him in a moment where he was, you know, sketching what seeing out here. But the rest of the country hadn't necessarily been in at that particular time. So that happens a lot with the draft because you're not looking at a college, you know, football schedule where everybody's on TV and you see exactly what you're looking at. There's so many moments when a scout can see somebody that nobody else knows about that makes the pick make 100% sense in the draft room, but makes no sense to anybody outside of it that, you know, it's for me, it's hard to to judge, you know, draft picks as being like wrong or bad because we're not in the room with those kind of conversations at this point. I guess last year, one of the big surprises head scratchers, whatever, was Xavier Isaac. And then he went and had a great time in the minors, I think. And then he had a really poor futures game. I mean, he's not a little more inconsistent. I think, you know, I think he's, again, a high school first baseman is not if you're looking at prototypical positions not to take off the word in the first round. High school first baseman are certainly not it. But then, you know, you look at like, you know, for instance, Matt Olson was a very high pick as a high school first baseman. He wasn't first round, but he was in that compensation area. And I don't think anyone would disagree with that as a first round pick later on, right? Like, it's just a matter of, it has to click in a very specific way. And if, you know, there's no fallback that somebody's going to become, you know, some other position or do something else athletically, because if you're stuck at first base in high school, there's kind of a sense of that's what that's going. I guess, you know, P. Jim Orlando, going to the Marlins, I think at 16, you know, he was somebody who was very polarizing. I met him at the Combine, great kid, hit the ball extremely hard. And I think really built back a lot of his value at the Combine, because he had a really crazy high school year where basically the high school coaches didn't pitch to him. So he was intentionally off like a ridiculous number of times, was hardly challenged at all. But and he has an unusual set up. He'd made some adjustments to it and didn't really get to use them in game because who was throwing in many pitches? Oh, no. Yeah, right. So he, you know, so, but he went to the Combine, got to show off a little bit of a toe tap, which he hadn't been using before. He'd sort of been why ultra wide and no stride. And you know, that might have helped kind of bring him back into the Marlins picture in terms of this is a guy who can hit for the kind of power that people thought he could hit with when he won that home run derby last year at the at the high school All-Star, you know, showcase. So our at the All-Star game, the high school home run derby. So I think, again, those are the sort of decisions that you don't necessarily understand from the outside, but you could see how it maybe it would have come together on the inside. And it's, and I guess, you know, Peter Vendix would have been involved in the Xavier Isaac decision in Tampa. And now he, you know, he's, he's leading that decision for Orlando. He's got a type two. He's okay with it. I mean, it makes me think a little bit of like, you know, raw materials versus somebody who's maxed out already. You know, I'm not going to say this about Burns because he went to. But like, if you had another person in his rotation that was at Wake Forest and you thought he was maxed out and you were comparing him to maybe a high school arm that hadn't had the same instruction. You know, I remember talking to who's the big slider guy in the Arizona bullpen. They thought he'd be a starter. He's like a, he's like a middle guy for them. Anyway, I, I, he came out of Duke, I think, and I did. Oh, Bryce Jarvis. Bryce Jarvis, I did an interview with him. And he was, he, he, like, I even asked him. Do you feel max that? Like, do you think you're getting the best of, like, you've done all the pitch changes you can to get to, he was talking that language, you know? So I wonder if with more Lando, I was also talking to Matt Walner recently about he was super wide. And, and he, and part of what the twins did was kind of shorten him and give him a, give him a kick, give him a step. And now he has like the second fastest bat speed in the big leagues. And I'm not saying that Walner is, you know, the most amazing outcome. But I think maybe with more Lando, they saw like some raw materials they could work with. Yeah. And, you know, and I did see him hit one that was like 450, you know, and it was BP at the combine. But I mean, the, the raw power there from a guy who, you know, maybe still needs some additional work on the setup is pretty impressive. So, you know, I think that's, I think that was a lot there. And again, like he was a guy who I think if we had been having this conversation this time last year was someone who was in the discussion for, you know, talk half of the first round at that point. So if, if the Marlins still liked him the way they, the way they liked him at that point, regardless of whatever noise, you know, came up with the weird high school season, you know, then the pick sort of makes more sense. But even, even then, I think none of those were so shocking that it was like, I can't believe they just made those picks the way that you've seen in some other drafts in past years. I think it's interesting that, you know, 20 years covering drafts for the A's like, so many teams feel like they change because the front office has changed, the personnel throughout the front office is different. The A's, I think are still somewhat predictable. Like I think there are players I look at and go, that makes sense. Nick Kurtz of the A's makes sense. A college first base, not awake, nice floor. I think Keith put the Andrew Vaughn sort of comp on him, which is a more reasonable way to make comps take players who are reasonably drafted and haven't hit their ceilings yet and say like, that might be what you're getting. What do you think of Kurtz? How do you think he fits in with the A's? And does he fit in this group of guys that could move pretty quickly through the minor leagues based on what he did in college? Yeah, I mean, I think he's a nice fit. You know, you can go back and forth on whether they should have taken Weatherholder Montgomery instead. But I do think he fits a pretty good spot in their system. You know, they, they have a lot of power. I mean, I think you saw that even just in Philadelphia this weekend, there's a lot of young players that can hit for a lot of power, but they like, can't take a walk to save their lives, which is ironic. I think given the organization's ethos. And, you know, they could use some guys that are coming in with, you know, better plate discipline than they've had. They've been trying to build it in the system. And I don't know that they're necessarily having a lot of success building plate discipline within the system. So here's a guy that comes in that already has extremely good pitch recognition. He has a really strong idea of what he wants to do at the plate. His approach is very much like I'm only going to hit the things that I know I can do damage on. And I'm not going to let pitchers beat me. He was a pitcher in high school. He says he still uses that, you know, kind of mentalities. He's at the plate. Like, how would I get myself out? So I think that fits really well. They also frankly don't have any first baseman in their system. I mean, I know that, you know, Tyler Soderstrom's been playing first base. And I think he's actually looked really athletic there. And I think he could be a first baseman long term. But if they like what he's doing, and they think he could move around even to left field or get back behind the plate for like a third of the games or something, you know, there's some flexibility there. And beyond him, it's like Will Simpson in in high A, and there are no other real first baseman in that system. So he, there's a lot of room for him to move up pretty quickly. And, you know, I think he speaks their language already. They've always drafted well out of that area of the country. You know, Neil Evans, been their area scout there for a long time, has done a really great job. So they know that weight program in and out in terms of just not just what you see on the paper, but who the kids are. So I think it's a fairly safe pick for them. And it is probably one that they can match up with the younger guys that are coming up pretty quickly, you know, sort of different to what we talked about with the pirates. There was, there was a couple, you know, interesting, multi-faceted players. You got Jack Kaggley, a Kaggley unknown for the to the Royals, announced as a two-way player. Keith said, you know, so much power that he's probably not going to pitch much. And then Sanchez, the Jerangela Sanchez, he was announced as a switch hand, the pitcher, which is weird because we don't, you know, you know, we don't ask people to switch hand in hitters. So I guess a switch pitcher was the term that Keith came up with. So, you know, you have these guys, I think of, you know, the guy that the A's had for a while that was the, that. Yeah, Vendetti. And I think of, of just most recently, the two guys that the Giants picked, you know, in Bryce Eldridge and Reggie Crawford, who were both two-way guys and kind of announced as such and coached as such, you know, they've all kind of their goal. They've all become one facet, you know, the ones that we've done in the past. Even, you know, I think Vendetti, like, had a better side, you know, and, you know, scouting ports on Sanchez said he's a better right-handed reliever. So I wonder if you just have any thoughts about, you know, the possibility that we get another Otani, or we get a, like, a legit switch pitcher, you know, or does, or is there's just the way that baseball works is they find the thing you do best and you gravitate towards the things you do best because it's, you're just trying to optimize outputs really. It's all sort of about efficiency and stuff. So I'm just wondering if you had any thoughts about that kind of trend and that idea. Yeah, I mean, you know, I think in the case of Kaggle, you know, and I'd be curious as to why they announced him as a two-way player. I think that even just listening to the Royals talk about him after the draft, it's really sound like they had that. They just kept talking about his power or whatever, right? Yeah, it was something that Jack really wanted. But, you know, he's going to be a hitter. Like, that's, I think the arm is very special, but, you know, there's so much to do to get him to be a really good pitcher that I think it would be very detrimental to his development as a hitter to have to be doing that much work as a pitcher. Plus, you know, he did already have Tommy John surgery and do you want a situation where, you know, your big middle of the order back blows out his elbow because he's going to be a late inning, you know, like a middle inning or lever for you? Like, because I think that's probably his more likely outcome is it? It's even hard. I mean, this is hard structurally as a manager to even make him your closer. Because of like, he has to be somehow warming up. Yeah, the Mets took Carson Benj and they did not announce him as a two-way player, but he was, you know, as much a two-way player as Jack was for Oklahoma State. And, you know, he, and ironically, he actually joins Nolan McLean in that Mets system. They were roommates at Oklahoma State, both two-way players. And but, you know, Nolan's going to be more of a pitcher. And I think almost everyone saw Carson, there's going to be more of an outfielder. But, you know, legitimately, he's got an arm. You could see him being, you know, a reliever in the big leagues and somewhat quickly. And what he said, he did be a closer at Oklahoma State. He would warm up in the outfield. Like, he was like, his center fielder was his throwing partner. He would warm up in the outfield and then run in for my right field to be. Like as a manager or as like a GM, I'm like, "Yeah!" Oh, I know. I know. Is there a way for two people to get hurt in my outfield at the same time? Like, when guys throw 98 and other guys, you know, unprotected place, you know? Yeah, I know. It's fascinating. But, you know, at the same time, like, the, like, movie cinema of that, you know, writing in, you know, he's hit two home runs and he comes in, and he's the closer. Oh, man. Yeah. I thought, I thought Otani would end up. But honestly, that's what I thought, Otani would end up. I mean, maybe we will get to that point. Maybe, maybe that's where, you know, I mean, I'm sure it's biased because of his size and the Florida thing. But, like, Headlee, you know, looks a little like AJ, you know, like the way that he, when you throw in the ball, right? So, you know, you can see that sort of, like, hits a bunch of home runs and then runs out there and does AJ puck things at the end of the game. I mean, it probably won't happen, but it'd be sort of fun to imagine it happening. And I think, you know, again, when people can do more than one thing, and that's sort of what we talked about with when you had someone who can play shortstop is the possibilities are more, you know, you have more options for like where that career can go. I mean, you look at like dating back to Shondu level. He was this two-way player at Virginia. They took him as an outfielder for a space man. He was going to be a big leaguers and an outfielder for a space man. And if he hadn't gotten hurt, but when he did get hurt, he had a pitching to fall back on and, you know, 13 years later or whatever, you know, he's got a long, big league career. So, having options is always good. I think with Cinge, he's so unusual in the fact that like we've never had a switch pitcher and legitimately blow hitters away from both sides, right? Like he's 92 from the left side even. Like, you know, that's way different than Mandela is as good as he was. And, you know, yeah, he was, he was a finesse guy, somebody who, you know, used deception. I don't think there's a lot of deception that that he needs from either side, I'm torrential. So like, I think what he can do, we don't know yet. Like the, the possibilities are kind of endless. And I think he tends to be more to favor the right side, even against right hand, you know, left handed hitters at times, especially if the platoon splits work that way. But if he can pull left handed out of the pocket against, you know, like, say he's going along right hand, right handed, right handed, but there's a there's a hitter that comes up that just kills right handed pitching and he can just switch into that a couple of times a game. You know, that, that sort of option is, is pretty like, we've never really had anything like that. Right. So, um, I think it's pretty cool. And, you know, Seattle has such a good system right now that that was an interesting and good risk to take at that point. Cause they, they can, um, take their time with him a little bit, you know, what the way things are. They're pitching's really good and young. Um, they've got a lot of good young hitters already in there. So, you know, why not kind of see how this looks and then figure it out as they go along. I'm curious, looking back at the top of the board, just again for a minute, like the White Sox got Hagen Smith at five and Burns at two versus Smith five. That was a fair toss up. Are they looking at those two guys? Who do you like better or how do you kind of compare those two guys at least as very productive college pitchers that should be successful as big league starters? Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, it depends on like if you're somebody who just is always going to favor a left handed pitcher, if you have the opportunity to have a left handed starter that can dominate, right? Like, cause those are kind of rare. Um, on the other hand, I think Burns's stuff, and you know, would be the more of the expert on this and that, but I think his stuff does grade out a little bit higher than Smith's just from like the raw, um, you know, like numbers of it. But, um, yes, Smith, I mean, you know, he was good and he was good consistently. I mean, that, that game he pitched against Oregon State, um, you know, back at that globe life classic, I think, um, Keith has said, like, Scouts have said it's the best college pitch game they've ever seen, you know, like, that's, that's unusual. And he kind of stepped up to the plate all the time. You know, he's kind of built in a way that's a little slight that you kind of worry, oh, well, will he be able to hold up over, you know, 180, 200 innings? Um, but other than that, yeah, I mean, I think that's, you know, the White Sox need everything, obviously, but I think, I think he's a good fit for them. Um, I think he could get there pretty quickly for them as well. I think, you know, the whole mustache curly hair thing is going to play great in, you know, in Chicago. And, um, and, and if you can get a good left-handed starter, you know, that's a great way to start building rotation. So, um, if crochet is not going to be there much longer, you know, he, he's the guy that could kind of come in there and, um, it may be in a year or so and take its place. Yeah, one thing, uh, from the stuff, Angela, it's interesting about the two is that Burns has really good ride, but he has it from a more vertical release point. So that's sort of a little bit more expected ride, whereas, um, Hagan has a lower release point, um, on that. And that's kind of what, um, teams are kind of analytically looking for. I've even had pitchers be like, I wish I was shorter, which is kind of, uh, really backwards for what it used to be like. Um, and so I could see Hagan having a little bit more sort of deception on the same amount of ride or whatever. Um, and then again, like, I'm not sure where this is anymore, but you kind of almost want to give a left hander an extra mile or two when you're, um, in terms of miles per hour when you're judging them. Uh, just because there's fewer of them, they don't have the same Vilo generally. Um, and their Vilo plays up often. So, um, you know, I like that. One thing that stood out to me, um, Jeff Fontes did a piece with, with stuff plus in it over at baseball prospectus, um, was that the savage was not, I wouldn't say, uh, better than either two, but I would say in their class. Um, and you know, he has, uh, according to, to Jeff, a 22 inches of vertical, which is just like, that, we don't have that in the big leagues. And he was like, well, that might have been a mystery to my, you know, may not read that as such on Hawkeye, um, you know, the major league, uh, pitch tracking, but it, but he was like really, um, you know, really liked your savages mix. The stuff plus was on, on par with the other three. Um, so I guess that was, um, just a little bit more of draft dynamics that your savage fell. Uh, we talked, we talked a little bit about this, but yeah, I was actually, that, that was very surprising to me that he fell out of the top 15. I mean, I think, um, I thought sort of 13 or so sounded like it was going to be his, his floor and to get to 20. Um, you know, I think, I think Toronto too, like to get somebody like him. Um, you know, they, they've added some high school arms and high school hitters in the last few years at that spot that have sort of taken a little time to get going. I've had some injuries. Um, you look at Ricky Tiedman's having another injury issue now. Um, you know, they, they need help more immediately. Um, and you know, there are, I think probably going to be rebuilding Hill here in a couple of weeks anyway, but like, um, you know, he is the guy who, you know, the angels were tied to him for a long time because people thought he could plug into the weeks, right? So it looks like they're really like a nice, wide arsenal. It's like four minutes. Yeah. Um, and it's unusual. I mean, it's, I think, um, I think the big question for him is from what Keith has said is that, you know, the, the mechanics are such that you do sort of wonder like, is that going to hold up for a starter? Um, is it, is it going to be more reliever-ish, um, long term? But you know, he, the only injury he had was that dry and unilling thing that had nothing to do with pitching. Um, and you know, he was very durable. He came back after that and beat Chase Burns. Hey, what thing? He, so he had a collapsed lung. Um, at the end of the season, um, he had to miss the AAC final. I think it was. Um, but he, uh, came back and pitched in the regional against Wake Forest and beat Chase Burns. Um, after that, having had that happen, but there was some thought that maybe that had allowed, like had him slip on a few words. I don't know why that would be because it clearly, you know, he's, he seems fine. Um, but, you know, he's, he, that is one where, um, you know, the durability has, has been there and from the college perspective with the exception of that very freak thing that happens. So, um, you know, I, I thought Toronto got really good value there. Um, and, and it is somebody that, yeah, if you were going to see someone move fairly quickly, you know, I think he could be, be one of those guys, they may, they may not push him much this year, just given the long, um, college season, but, uh, next year, you know, start out and high and move pretty fast from there. I thought it was interesting that the Orioles took Vance Honeycutt just because the strikeout rate in college is pretty high. And I think when we consider the limited quality of pitching, it's so many places that seems riskier right now, but the Orioles have kind of shown this ability with some of the guys they have in the big leagues right now of improving strikeout rates, moving through the minor league system, like they might have an ability to improve plate discipline. Um, so I'm just curious, like, are there certain picks you saw where the, the organization's going to give you more confidence in them ultimately being right about the player in his Honeycutt, one of those picks? Yeah, I mean, I think, I think it's certainly made sense for the Orioles, given what they have been doing. Um, you know, he, like Honeycutt is up there with Griffin in terms of tools, right, for this drafting, maybe elite among everybody else. Um, he can do everything, but the hit tool, which is so weird thing to, to say, because the hit tool is pretty important, but you know, he's a great 70 defender, great 70 runner. He's got big power. Um, so it's just, if he can hit it enough, but we have seen a lot of those guys in, you know, professional baseball and that one thing becomes too insurmountable to really come together. Um, the Orioles have done a very good job. I'm hearing Joe Adele a little bit. Yeah, I mean, there's, there's a lot of them, right? Like Michael Choice, right? Like, there's, there's so many of these, these guys that have, have everything except that one thing. And, and I think with the Orioles, they have had a lot of success with some, with a good number of their guys. They've had some guys though that are, you know, kind of still showing the same tendencies that they showed in college, you know, in the minor leagues right now. So I don't think it's a guarantee of anything, but I do think that if you are a scouting department, um, and you trust your coaching staff to coach up certain areas, um, absolutely you should go take the tools that are best if you believe that your coaches can help a guy. And if they do, then I think that, I mean, I think that's the way you should do this. Like if you're a major league organization, you should be investing on the best coaches that you can, because if you can find talent and have coaches that can translate that talent, you know, you're, you're going to be outpacing everybody. And, um, if the Orioles feel that way right now and it, you know, proves seems to be in the pudding at the moment, um, the Honeycutt will be a good pick. Yeah, one thing that can happen is you can, you can make a strength into a weakness by saying, oh, we have really good, we, we, we develop pitchers really good. Let's just take hitters for the first four rounds and not putting, you know, good stuff into, you know, the quote, unquote, me grinder, whatever, you know, putting, you know, in terms of like, Sancha, I like that, I like that pick because they are a good organization, it seems for developing pitching. And why not take a high pick and put somebody with like a lot of upside into that, you know, because you can argue either way, you know, you can be like, Oh, we can develop this up. So let's take a guy who can't strike out, who strikes after much and hope our coaches can fix it. We think we think we can do that. Why not take somebody who, you know, does make contact making even better, you know, so I, I don't know. Every team that we give the kind of bulletproof, you know, every team that we're like, this is the team, they know what they're doing. Just give them another draft. I also think too, it kills me when, when people are like, Oh, these guys can't develop, develop X kind of prospect, we should never take that prospect. Then the problem is the coaching, right? Like, fix that. You're not, you're not stuck with the same coaches forever. You know, like we can bring somebody in. Well, the A's are. But, you know, but I mean, like, but it's like that, that shouldn't be the thing. The thing should be you find the best coaches there so that you can take the best talent. You know, if that's what the, the Orioles have found that they're doing now, you know, obviously, I think if you look at their organizational strength right now, they could use some pitching, but if the best pitching wasn't there at that point in the draft, it's silly to bypass it, you know, a hitter that you can turn something into, just because you want to force it with a pitcher. Is that, is that Ken Cameron, these kids that went to the brace? No, no, it's his cousin, which, so Cam, he said on the, he was not born yet when Ken was playing, if you want to feel, yeah, but you know, he was an interesting one because the Giants were connected to him. I mean, for more than a year, and it was very interesting to see them go with the more fast track established outfield bat given the pace at which they've moved a lot of their prospects over the last couple of years. They went with a guy that should probably move fairly quickly over the longer play high school pitcher that they had been sort of rumored to be connected to for a while. So I'm curious, we've got a handful of picks in for a few teams already, who's got the best foundation as far as the possible best draft classes so far based on the early portion of the draft this year. Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, it's, it's a little, it's a little early because I liked, I liked it. I think the day two picks are really important, and so I would hate to shortchange, you know, what's going to go on today. I like what Colorado did. I think if you're going to maximize those two picks and picking from where they picked, you know, they did a really good job there. I think Kansas City, like, you know, they both star power and the, you know, what they've got coming in is pretty good. I'm always intrigued by what Milwaukee does. I think what they put together every year, you know, is just, is really fascinating. And, you know, even though theirs was sort of the surprise, why did you take that guy that early kind of thing? I think you could start to see the shape of what they were doing with the rest of the picks in day one. They took both high schoolers? Yeah, yeah. Where is the penny? They also took Blake Burke, who, you know, I mean, you know, he's a East Bay guy out here from Dayla Salle High School, so I followed him a long time. But, you know, he's a big power guy, first base. He could move pretty quickly from Tennessee. So they have a pretty good variety there. But, you know, they've got three high school pitchers. Blake Burke, the big, you know, first baseman and a high school outfielder. And so, you know, it's an interesting mix there. And, you know, and they have the, the, the teams that have money to play with a little bit too, the Nationals picking up extra room and being able to take Seaver King at the top and then still kind of swing big later on with that extra, you know, cap room is good. And, you know, I think Caleb Lomavita, who was their last pick, the Cal catcher, you know, he obviously needs work with pitcher recognition, but he's the best athlete at the catching position I felt like from this draft and should be kind of an interesting guy to follow. Pirates follow up a high school shortstop with a high school shortstop. Yeah. Yeah. Well, again, I think the question is, you know, I mean, Connor Griffin's big, like he's, when I met him at the Combine, like he was the most physically imposing player of the guys I met. Maybe he sticks with shortstop because now guys can be six, seven, but I, you know, they have a six, seven shorts. Exactly. But I could very well see him playing a really good center field too. So I don't think that's probably going to run into a big problem with them. As they say in baseball, it's a good problem to have and it'll work itself out. Right. Well, I mean, you just wonder if it'll work itself out for that regime. I mean, it's like they're probably feeling some pressure to win. Yeah, you know, they didn't panic though. You know, but with the, I mean, you know, with the talent they have right now, you would hope that something starts to come together pretty soon there because it would be a shame to waste any of the years of some of these guys that they've got on the roster. I was just thinking it looks like, you know, Braden Montgomery might be one of the first round air quotes values, right guys that slipped a little more than expected. The Red Sox getting him at 12 when I think he was fourth or fifth on a lot of boards. That's kind of a good start. And what you do on day two determines whether or not you just got a good value in round one or if you actually put together a really nice collection of talent on top of getting a player that may not have been there. JJ Weatherholt going to the Cardinals at seven probably sets up the Cardinals for a little more of a boost in this draft than expected because I don't know if many people thought he'd actually be there for them. Yeah, I mean, you know, the Red Sox that's two years in a row Kyle Teal really kind of slipped down to them too. So, you know, they've been, I wouldn't say fortunate because like, you know, they still could have passed on him, but I think they did a really good job there both years with getting the player that probably had the highest value at that moment. Yeah, and I think what was also interesting is they took a picture in the second round and Jen McCaffrey noted that that's the first time they've picked a picture in the first two rounds since 2017 when they took Tanner Hawk. So, you know, the influence of seeing, you know, Breslow and seeing Andrew Bailey and, you know, all the kind of pitching infrastructure they're starting to build with the Red Sox that they really didn't have the last few years. I think you sort of see that influence there and it'll be interesting to see what they do in day two, too. The Montgomery spelled maybe because of, I mean, he was wheeling himself around on the on the whole. It was an interesting look, right? Yeah, like here's our first round pick. He's got an ankle that doesn't work. It's so weird because like, obviously, I am not a doctor in BA. I have no, you know, look at these medical reports. Everyone says that it's not going to be a problem. So, that it's a non-bearing bone is ankle, whatever that means. And so, we should just be, you know, totally trusting that it's going to be fine. Ankle injuries always scare me. But, you know, at the same time, again, like, he's very, very talented hitter, switch hitter, which, you know, there's not that many of those even pro ball at all anymore, let alone at this point in the draft. He was actually a two-way player at Stanford before he went to Texas A&M, a huge arm, you know, really good athlete, extremely smart kid. So, you know, there's a lot of upside with someone like him and if the ankle's not going to deteriorate into termites, like, Grant likes to say about quick host, Reyes ankle, I think. Yeah, that's what I was thinking about, you know. I just saw a planner fasciitis for Carlos Korea going into the all-star break. Fantastic. Yeah, I went on to do the seat, yeah. I feel like, I can't remember the names off the top of my head, but there were a couple other guys that sort of fell due to injury. Yeah, I mean, injuries are such a funny thing because it's like, you know, again, we don't see the medicals and what I thought was most interesting when I was at the combine this year is how much of the time those guys spend, like, literally an MRI too. So, like, all these guys get, like, fully body scanned and all that. So, that's a level. There was a benefit to going, I saw something. There was a benefit to the player if he went to the combine and the benefit to the teams was they get, like, their own medicals. You go through a full medical through the combine. Basically, if a player agrees to go through the full medical at the combine and they get selected, they have to be offered at least, I think, 75% of slot, even if it's in the amount of medicals that would scare off a player. So, like, in the Kumar rocker situation, had he gone through those medicals there, he would have been guaranteed a certain amount of money that, you know, the Mets would have had to pay at that point. But he hasn't gone through the medicals because they couldn't even refuse to sign him after seeing the medicals. I guess, no, I mean, I think if they, if they, if yeah, if they take him, because they already have the medicals going in. So, I guess they have the information ahead of them. If they make the decision to go forward anyway, then they have to do 75%. Yeah, they can't. They've got to do the 75%. I don't know that anyone's ever actually gotten to take advantage of that yet, but there were a lot of guys going through those MRI tubes at the combine. So, I think it's certainly an option that a lot of those guys would take. Nothing about an MRI looks fun. Like, at zero, zero hearts. No, it's like, I've done several, they're, they're, they look terrible. They look terrible. They put a little classical music on with the headphones while you're in there. It's, it's not because it's like, I've been in the peeping in the bangs and yeah, that's, I didn't get that. I just got the beeping in bangs and the white. You're just looking at white. Yeah. No, it's, it's really, I, I, you would have to think of all the medical advancements. That's one they've got to figure out. Yeah. How do they get a TV in there? Yeah. Like at the dentist, you know, they give you this. Exactly. That's been, that's been wonders for dentistry for kids. I'm so, I'm sick and adults too. I appreciated that last time. I had to go to the dentist. Melissa, is there anyone we haven't talked about? Either they got drafted already or will be drafted in the next 48 hours that you thought has a particularly interesting story or maybe some of them that could be a little bit of a deep sleeper that people aren't necessarily talking enough about? Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I think this was a pretty straightforward class. I really, I really like Slade Caldwell. I think that, that pick at 29 for the Arizona Diamondbacks was, was really fun. You know, he's, he's listed at five nine. There's no way, but he's, but he's very physically built, really tools out, very 80 grade on his personality. And I think they've shown already, they can do pretty well with the minute of outfielders, with, with good tools. So, you know, he's, he's kind of a fun guy. I'll be interested to see where Michael Massey goes today at the Wake Forest Pitcher. He had pitched through back pain like the entire year this year, had back surgery after the season, but he was really impressive when talking and, you know, and it was like fine walking around like three weeks later after the back surgery, which is kind of remarkable to me. But, you know, he was really interesting in terms of talking to you about pitching. And I think he's somebody that maybe an injury has, you know, obviously pushed him out of day one, but could be an interesting one to like see a couple of years from now, because he may be day one value in day two. Love that we're getting another Michael Massey in the pool. I know, no, I think it's great. I say there, there's going to be another Jared Jones taken today too. We already have two Max Muncie's. So no, we're going to, I think a whole like all star team of people with the same names on either side would be just amazing. So all my excel sheets. Oh, yeah. Well, Smith, the Luis Garcia's, they've been, they've been cooked for a while now. Before we let you go, Melissa, one last question. Do you know why this draft is being held at Cowtown Coliseum of all venues? I don't know. I don't know. There's so many things I don't understand. Like last night, I mean, I think ESPN just turned off their program after the 30th pick MLB network. They were just announcing that the picks for the rest of the night at the desk and Melanie did a great job, but like they weren't announcing them at the Cowtown place. They were just putting their names up on a board, which is kind of crazy. I mean, these are like first round equivalent talents to not treat it that way. Major League Baseball makes some very interesting decisions when it comes to production value and also promoting the young people in their, I mean, they're holding their all star pressers right now in the middle of day three, you know, day two, third round picks. Like, why are we shoving this all into one weekend? Like, you know, give these things some space. You know, I'd really like to let these kids have more time to be known and talked about because we've already moved on to the home run derby. You know, like it's, it's not really fair to a lot of the work that goes into this to have it kind of blinked away like that. So, but yeah, at Cowtown, I mean, if you're really trying to relate to the kids, the Cowtown USA is it. We got a gift now of Rob Manfred coming through saloon doors, which we really need that. So that's, we have a lot of things so we can have to do with that. Yeah. Yeah, that's me. That's me. Yeah. I mean, I'm glad we have that now. That's cool. But, uh, yeah, it's, uh, it's always great to catch up to Melissa. Great insight. Thanks for taking the time to join us today. Yeah, thanks for having me on. I appreciate it. All right. So we're going to head out. Quick reminder before we go, you can get all of our draft coverage from the athletic athletic.com/ratesandbarrels. Get a subscription. It's $2 a month. If you don't have one already, hopefully you already have that. You can find us all on Twitter. You can find Melissa at Melissa Lockard. Find Eno at, you know, Sarah's find me at Derek VanRiper and find the pod at rates and barrels. It's going to do it for this episode of rates and barrels. We're back with you on Tuesday. Thanks for listening. [Music] [BLANK_AUDIO]
