Test Match Special

Graham Thorpe Remembered

Steve Crossman is joined by the former England spinner Phil Tufnell, the former England opener Michael Carberry and England and Welsh Fire bowler Georgia Elwiss to celebrate the life and career of Graham Thorpe following his death last week at the age of 55.

The panel share their memories and stories of playing alongside Thorpe, who scored 6,744 runs in 100 Tests and 2,380 runs in 82 one-day internationals during his 12-year England career.

The former Pakistan captain Waqar Younis also joins the podcast to reflect on one of England's most iconic test match victories when Graham Thorpe guided England to their first series victory in Pakistan for 39 years in the pitch-black darkness in Karachi.

Duration:: 43m
Broadcast on:: 13 Aug 2024
Audio Format:: mp3

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Hello, welcome to this special episode of the Test Match Special Podcast with me, Steve Crossman, as we celebrate the life and career of Graham Thorpe following his death last week at the age of 55. 6,744 runs in 100 tests, 2,380 runs in 82 one-day internationals. He played at two World Cups and later became a batting coach for England's test and white ball teams. His family have announced that he'd been suffering from depression and anxiety and that he'd taken his own life. They've been speaking in an interview in the Times with the former England captain, Mike Atherton. Depression is an illness and his family have spoken really bravely about it in that piece, making the crucial point amongst many other crucial points that there should be no stigma around it. As they say, it's okay not to be okay. With us, we have got Graham Thorpe's former teammates Phil Toughnell and Michael Carberry and also the England and Welsh Fireballer, Georgia Elwhis. I think this is going to be an emotional one and a difficult one for all of you because I know Graham thought meant a lot to you all in your own different ways. Phil, just an incredible man and of course an awful tragedy. Yes, absolutely. Very difficult times. I played a lot of cricket with Graham and went on a lot of tours with him for England and they were long tours back in the day. We used to go away for like three or four months and it was a time really when cricket has changed a lot. It was chaos really. It was an emotional roller coaster playing for England and off the cricket field and I became very good friends with Chalki. You had to try and find a pathway through it, all of that cricket stuff and you could only really do it with the help of your mates really. There wasn't a lot of support or backroom staff in those days and we had a lot of fun. We had a lot of fun. He was a supreme player in those days and the bloke that everyone wanted to get out in the opposition and the bloke who I used to, as he walked out of the bat, he used to sort of say, "Don't let them get them me Graham." He was the one who would go and put a score on for you. I think, George, it's so important for us to everyone say such a big thank you to his family as well for the way they've spoken because they're so right there shouldn't be a stigma around it. Of course, there shouldn't be a stigma around it. It is an illness and yet it still feels like it needs to be said. I know they've been incredibly brave coming out and speaking about it and I think they said that they want to raise a greater awareness of it and I think by them speaking about it can save lives in the future. That'll be something that they can hold on to, I guess. It's just incredibly sad that he's a player that I hugely admired growing up, not just because of how brilliant he was at cricket, but it was almost his character and you could really see watching him playing, just you could see his personality come through in the way that he played. I think that as sad as this is, if it can save some one life in the future, then that is something that that family can hold on to. That's absolutely right, Michael, isn't it? Just by them talking about it, we're talking about it and the more people that talk about it, the better. Yeah, absolutely. I can't be honest, it still feels surreal. For me, even just thinking that he's gone, he was hugely influential to a lot of us, especially being a kid growing up in Surrey, started at Surrey in the 90s, Graham Fort was the guy. I think what it throws light on for me this week is that Graham was always someone synonymous with that toughness, mental toughness. You saw him at the Wiki, he took on the very best, he always had that steel look in his eyes, but no one's bulletproof. I think that's when we have our helmets on, that's one thing, but where people away from playing cricket, and that's the thing that stood out for me is that even the guy that I looked out to before was one of the toughest guys I've ever seen. Sadly, no one's, I can't even get the words out, but you get what I'm saying, no one's bulletproof. No, I know exactly what you mean, Michael, because this is the point, isn't it? It is an illness, and an illness doesn't discriminate. It doesn't matter how bold a person, how brave a person you are, an illness is an illness, it can affect absolutely anybody. Yeah, exactly, and I think that's off to his family for sort of explaining what happened and trying to raise that awareness, and I think the whole cricket family's got their part to play in that as well, making sure that we do get behind people when they are struggling, because sometimes cricket can feel a bit detached at times when you're dropped or you finish playing, it can feel a little bit of a detached world, and I think that's sometimes the time to really make sure that we keep in touch with people and just make sure they're travelling OK, and I'd like to say, if you can save one life, I think that's a good thing. He loved his bats, you know, he loved his bats every time I ruled with him. He used to, do you remember Carl? Do you remember him? He used to, he used to take about 20 away with him on tour, and he used to get them all out, and I've ruled with him a lot at the end, because we sort of, we got on so well, and you'd all sort of have a shower and everything, and he'd say, right, what we doing, you know, we're going out with a drink, or we're going out with something, or something, and it'd go, you're all right, I'm just going to, I'm just going to feel about with me bats for half an hour, so I'll see you down in the bar, and he used to, he used to wrap up socks around him, and he used to, he used to, he used to whipple away at his handles, and he used to be always fiddling around and getting that just right grip in his handles, you know, and we'd be, we'd be about three pints deep, and he'd come in, you know what I mean, they'd come and work showing that, I was a bit like, I was just playing with number one, and number three just didn't quite feel quite right, and so I was, I needed to put another rubber on it, you know what I mean, and it was a, it was a, it was a fantastic bloke, it was a lovely fillet, it had a great sense of humour, a dry sense of humour, but always sort of like, tried to find a sort of a funny sort of aspect of these long hard, tough tours, you know, they were tough tours, you know, you'd be away for months, and you'd miss family, you'd miss friends, you know, Christmases away, and you know, we always just then tried to have such a laugh, you know, and the cricket was tough, and he didn't know really where you stood ever, you know what I mean, and so when you'd sort of like then on your downtime, you made sure you went out and had a bit of fun, you know, and tried to embrace the country that you were staying in, and yeah, we had such good fun, we had some of the times, you know, you know, going up and seeing waterfalls, and going to see, you know, all these mad places where you went away on tour, you know, and you'd always do it with your mates, and we became very sort of like close friends, and Karms is right, you know, and an absolute focus when he played, you know, when he played, it doesn't matter what situation you were in, and we were usually in a bit of trouble, you know, and we hadn't scored too many, and then he never saw it as a kind of, you know, I, well, this is irreparable, you know, it always go out and try and see a way through it, and I bet it with a couple of times, again, it's the West Indies, you know, and he just go, come on, tough, as he said, you know, this is great fun, you know, this is what it's all about, it's got curtly hand bros and courtley walls, absolutely million, you know, I mean, this isn't fun, you know, he says, no, he says, this is what, this is what it's all about, and he had these look in his eyes, you know, and the little fella, the little fella was just a little genius with the bat, with against the spin bowlers as well, and he helped me, he helped me a lot through my career on some sort of pretty dark days when you were away, and what have you, you know, things aren't going so well, and you, you rely, you rely on your mates to sort of pull you through, and he was one of them. And this is what we really want to do tonight as well is, is celebrate the life of, of Graham thought, and I mean, what you've just said, fill is, has just illustrated that absolutely perfectly what you talked to Georgia about him being someone you really admired growing up. What did you love about watching Graham thought? I think, you know, a lot of what we've spoken about in, in terms of his, his character and always being up for the fight and his, I think his ability to, to be dogged and determined in, in his innings. And as Phil said, a fantastic player of spin. And I think somebody who wouldn't belt the ball out the ground, but would accumulate and, and almost, you know, tick away. And, and all of a sudden he's, he's on 50/60 runs before you know it. And probably one of the first left-handers as well that I really admired growing up and just somebody who was a real, I guess, traditionalist, purest, of the game and, and somebody that I, I really looked up to. What about you, Michael? Oh, where do I start? Well, for me, he was, as I said, he was the guy. You're a left-hander. You're growing up in the 90s. You're a sorry lad. Graham thought was the person that I looked at. I think, I mean, I suppose if you're looking at the way he played the game in, in that era, he was almost, almost very un-English-like. And I don't mean that, like, disrespectfully to the players in that era. But, you know, he was one of the first guys I really saw, you know, take on the short-pitch ball and, you know, really dominate. You know, you have, I have visions of English bats. We're going to the Caribbean in, you know, when I was young, watching them hop around and stuff. And Graham thought was almost completely opposite. He, he decided, you know, what I'm taking them on. And for me, I looked at that and I wanted to, I wanted to emulate that. And I'm not ashamed to say, you know, I modeled my game very much on Graham Thorpe. He was, I mean, the, I mean, Phil tells it beautifully. I mean, yeah, I've been witness to those days where he used to carry around this little, this little pack. And the physios used to, it used to be a nightmare for the physios because they're looking for their tape. And most, most of it is in Thorpe, in Thorpe's little bag. He's carrying around with sandpaper and lolly sticks and toothpicks and you name it, scissors and you'll be sitting there on his own, just, you know, cutting rubbers and one and a half rubbers, two grips. He'll take one off, he'll put more tape. And he was just someone very, you know, he very meticulous, you know, very meticulous planner, very thoughtful on the game. But I think for me, the one thing that stood out, I mean, obviously, you know, being a young kid, coming in by a big changer room at a time at Surrey, with all the superstars, you know, the Alex Stewart's, Rampa Cash, his, all these guys, was how easy he was to talk to. Which, you know, when you're a young kid and a big changer is already nervous, you know, you're, you're there with your heroes. And I remember the first time he walked in, he walked straight over to my corner and said, hi, extended his hand, hi, I'm Graham. And I was just sort of like eyes open then. Oh my God, I can't believe I'm meeting my hero, literally. And I mean, a preseason could get any better than this. The coach Keith Medleycott then allowed me to work with him for three weeks, feeding the bowling machine. And I mean, I was, I was quite happy to just sit there watching this guy practice and do it go about his thing. And then he said to me, oh, you know, get your pads on, I'll feed some balls back to you. But I mean, don't get any better than that, does it? I mean, you can, I can go to my grave and say, you know, my hero actually threw balls to me. And, you know, he taught me my pool shot. And, you know, I was, at that time, I was looking for a sponsor. And I was secretly hoping that Kookaburra was the one to come on board. I wanted the ridge back that he used the yellow ridge back. So eventually, I end up with Kookaburra. And yeah, I mean, he, he's someone you just followed. But the main thing that stood out for me, not to drag on, but was just how easy he was to talk to, you know, like you could, you felt like you could go to him for anything. And one thing you would do is give you honest advice. I tell you another thing that just sort of springs to mind as well is, you know, there was a lot of, a lot of silly things going on in cricket at those times, you know what I mean? You can't shave. You've all got to wear the red top for training, the blue top for this training. You've got to wear the orange top for go running, you know what I mean? You can't have an even in, you know what I mean? Otherwise, you didn't get picked. And I think that's why we became sort of very close is because we did sort of have that little bit, but it wasn't, I wouldn't say it was rebellious, you know what I mean? But it was just doing things for the sake of doing things, you know what I mean? Which, you know, I think that he sort of like was a bit of one of the first people who just said, listen, I'm going to go about my business with mid-bat. I'm going to get behind the team. I'm going to do my stuff, you know what I mean? But don't tell me to go for a 15 mile run when I don't need to go for a 15 mile run. Don't tell, don't find me if I've got the wrong t-shirt on, you know what I mean? And I haven't had a shave. As you say, I've got Alan Donald, currently, yeah, and bros caught me wall steaming in at me, you know what I mean? If I haven't had a shave, it's not the end of the world, you know what I mean? And he just sort of like, you know, sort of like, as you say, it wasn't rebellious, but it was just a sort of a confidence in his own ability with his beloved little bats that he could go out there and do it his way, you know what I mean? And his way, he had, you know, you had to find your way in those days and he found it and he sort of like stuck to it, do you know what I mean? I just think George was well, you know, when people say like, never meet your hero, the reason people say that is, if you do meet your hero, you have built that person up so much that it is almost impossible for it to be a positive experience because you've made them perfect in your mind. So it says so much, doesn't it? The story that Michael just told about having not just a positive experience, but almost the perfect experience of meeting a hero. That's almost impossible to have. Yeah, it is. It's and it says a lot about him, doesn't it? I think I had a couple of interactions with him when he was coaching the England Lions at Loughborough and England women used to train there, and he'd be in the net next to to us and he'd be, you know, throwing balls at the lads, but he'd always say hello, he'd always come and offer his support, and you just think for somebody who's that busy, for somebody who's been that successful to still, you know, want to give back even to the women's game where, you know, he's not necessarily involved in it, but he's still happy to offer words of wisdom to say hello, to be welcoming and to create that England unity between the women and the men. They were really my own experiences of meeting him, but they left a big impression on me as well. Yeah, and I think that's perhaps why he then sort of decided to go into coaching a little bit, because he saw the sort of the failings of it beforehand, you know, when there was the players, they were the bad boys on the back of the bus, they were the coaches, you know what I mean? And there wasn't that sort of bridge, there wasn't that sort of bridge, that sort of tried to bring everyone together without it being, you know, "cricy or highly," I mean, you know, some of the coaches, they used to, "You know, grey home, you know, get us some bloody runs." You know, maybe it was so pressurized, it was not pressurized, but it was so, yeah, it was so intense that I think that he found that, you know, like, when he then later on in his sort of coaching career, tried to sort of smooth that away and sort of take away, you know, it doesn't matter what tee shirt you weigh, it's a training, really, you know what I mean? And just try to get the best out of yourself, and yeah, he was a top boy, he was a top boy, thought he. And this is a nice message, Michael, from Tim, whose messages from New South Wales says, "As an Aussie, Thorpe was the wicket in the late '90s. He was the one bloke that had the better of warney class." I don't think there is a bigger compliment than that. No, I don't think he gets much bigger than that. As I said, I mean, you look at his record against the Australians at that time. I mean, I think he averaged over 45 against, you know, the Australian attack contained in McGrath warned Gillespie, Breckley, the Damien Fleming, you name it, he's been there. And then you think about the attacks around the world that, you know, they mentioned it, Ambrose Walsh, Eunice, Atcrab, you know, the names going on and on. But you always felt like the Australians always had a respect for Graham, as I said, simply because he was, you know, he was a battered act, but almost strike fear into them, you know, like he took them on where we hadn't been successful in previous Aussie series because, you know, batsmen didn't probably have a real plan on those bouncy wickets and, you know, were caught short, but he was someone who decided I'm going to take them on. And he, you know, he had that belief, you know, he had that belief in his ability. Yeah, sure. You know, there's times where he got out and he, but I never felt it was something that he ever worried about to, you know, he was always like, like Phil said, he always had that inner confidence. You know, not a man who said a great deal. I mean, but you always felt what he did say in Jesse rooms, it was purposeful. And I, and I back up, you know, sort of Georgia as well, I always thought he would make a very good coach, you know, I always felt that was a natural transition for him after playing because I think he, he won one special trait. I think he had is that he understood players very well. He understood different personalities. He didn't take life too seriously. You know, you get some coaches that, you know, they want to, yeah, they want you to do a thousand burpees every two minutes, every time you get out and, you know, you know, you get fined for different things as Phil said, but, you know, Thorpey was still able to get to have a serious side, but also see the lighter side of things as well. And I think that's what made him, for me, a very, I think he was a very special car. I was privileged to work with him at Lions level and say it was a great honor because, you know, I could sit there over a coffee and just pick his brain and, you know, it was just, you know, I'll just miss him a lot, I think. Yeah. It was a funny story that has just popped into me and I couldn't play it. We were playing a one day game at Brisbane and he'd gone out there and sort of saved us a little bit and got us a total and I was 12 men. And it must have been, I don't know, about 42 degrees or something. And anyway, he's battered out there and he's getting stuck in and what have you. And then he's come off and he's sort of fainted. And so he's gone on the physios bench and he's got, you know, like dehydration and drips him in and everything. And after that, then I'm thinking of myself, Oh God, Christ, he thought, Well, you're okay and everything. And then all of a sudden I've thought, Oh, no, I'm going to have to do his field in for 50 overs. So I've gone in and I've gone in at the physios room. I'm going chalky, man. What are you doing to me? Get off. I'm trying to pull his drips out. Get up, get up and get out there. He's going tough as cat. He said, I could listen, I could, I tried to, but I don't feel great. I'm going out cheers, great. You throw me right in it. I've got 50 overs in 42 degree, but yeah, he was just saying what carbs, carbs said there, you know, he took everyone at face value. You know what I mean? He had no grudges, didn't hold any grudge against anyone. And if you said anything wrong or something or someone upset him, you know, I mean, he wouldn't hold on to it. He'd just come back in the next day and sort of, you know, and you just go straight back on with the job, you know what I mean? And he was a great seed man who I have on tour. And yeah, he was a great fella. He really was, we had so much fun. We really, really did. I'm going to take a slight risk here because I know what the, what I want the answer to be because it'll set me up perfectly. But let's see if I'm get the answer that I'm after. Phil, if you were to pick one specific Graham Thorpe innings, what would immediately come to mind for you? Oh, crikey. There'd be loads, there'd be loads, loads of hundreds. I've seen him score. What about when he didn't score a hundred? Yes, in the dark. Oh, what'd you say, Phil, in the dark? Yeah, against Pakistan. When I don't think anyone could see the ball. I can still remember him nicking one off Saq Lane, I think it was. And just no one knew where the ball had gone. And so they all just started running. It was absolute chaos. But that was a measure of the man. Never beaten Pakistan in Pakistan, if that's correct. And he got him over the line somehow with NASA, I think. And yeah, but there were some, so some gorgeous innings. I've seen him score a couple. He scored a wonderful hundred at the oval, I think. Wasn't it? Was it his first test match? I can't quite remember now. Tembridge, wasn't it against Australia? Yes, yes. That was a fabulous not. I mean, there's too many, too many to really remember. And they weren't just all the flamboyant, as you were saying, carbs. They weren't all the flamboyant ones, but when he was going, when he was on the song, I'd say he's probably one of England's best batsmen. I really do. I really know. Yeah, and I'm even talking carbs about someone like a David Gower in a funny sort of way, a completely different kind of player. But if you were going to say, who would you rather have in your team, a David Gower or a Graham thought? I'll tell you something, it would be a difficult choice. Absolutely. I think, as I said, I think he's definitely one of the best players this country has produced and seen over many, many years. I think his record space for itself, but I think what puts him up there for me is simply the attacks he did it against in a struggling team. I think those runs he scored are almost worth double at certain times, because a lot of the time, he didn't have the support around him. He had to hold that middle order together. As you said, difficult tours, long tours, I've been to the Colton of Australia, you've been to the Colton of Australia. When they've got you down, it's a brutal place. For one man to stand out, it's taking them on single-handedly almost. It was a wonderful player. You know, George, sometimes this question always gets asked, but it's a really easy one this time. You often talk about, you know, when it was a Bobby Charlton or whoever, you always ask that question, well, you know, how do you think they would have done in the modern era, but actually, Graham thought sounds like a top modern player. The way everyone is describing him, everything that the very best in the world are now. Yeah, absolutely. I think the way that he worked the game out, played against as Cobb said, some of the best attacks, some of the quickest bowling is some of the most difficult conditions. I think he'd make modern day cricket look very, very easy on the pitches that we play on and some of the boundary sizes as well. I think it's more about him as a person and how he approached his cricket which would mean that he would succeed in the modern day game because I think he was way ahead of his time in terms of how he thought about the game, how he thought about, you know, what it means to be that well-rounded human and allow yourself the best chance to go and perform on the pitch as well. One innings in particular does stand out. We've just been talking about it. He's scored 64, not out in Karachi in 2000 to guide England to their first series victory in Pakistan for 39 years, and they had to do it in pitch-black darkness. Two needed for England to win this third and final test and win the series. In comes Sackler now, in Bowles the Thorpe, Thorpe goes back and those other winning runs, they've crossed for a single, they're back for the second, Graham Thorpe has won England of one for the first time in Pakistan since 10 Dexter's side, one here in 1961, 62, and England of one with two overs and three balls to spare. This has been an historic event, certainly, and an historic win for England here in Karate. They won in Lahore in 1960-61, but they've won this game in Karate and they've won it by six wickets. What an amazing test match and what an amazing spell at the crease, the great Graham Thorpe and NASA has seen. Waka Yunus was the Pakistan captain and he's with us now. Waka, thank you for speaking to us. Who was Graham Thorpe to you? Graham Thorpe was everything to me. To be honest, he was a very close buddy. He was a kind of a family member to me. I spend a lot of time with his family and this is why it's worse. We used to visit each other on regular basis. It's such a sad story and it's such a sad news that he's no more. My heart still doesn't take that and believe that he's gone, but it's unfortunate. It's a very, very sad news and sad times. What do you remember of the first time you met him? Oh, there's a long time back. Those Saturday days when I first played for Sarib, he was a youngster, a very energetic, very vibrant and very talented and skillful. A full of energy running around on the field. He was a youngster coming through from the courts and I was sort of making my debut for Sarib. We really clicked very early in the game and throughout his career, in my career, we played together for a long time, good five, six years. Then when I moved from Sarib, I played for some other counties, Galmoggan, Worxure, and played against him. Every time we met each other, it was like that we were never sort of separated. Him touring here in Pakistan also, I still remember very clearly, we had some lovely times going out and spending time going to the restaurants here in Karachi, Lahore and all over Pakistan. He enjoyed his time here in Pakistan and an amazing cricketer. I mean, talent-wise, not many can beat him. He was that sort of character, unfortunate to hear that. Well, let's talk about that time in Pakistan, then. And of course, there is a night above all nights that as England fans, we remember, I'm sure it's the same for Pakistanis as well. Karachi, day five, Monday, December the 11th, 2000, and nobody could see anything. Yeah. Yeah, it was indeed very similar. We tried our best to sort of draw the game or get out of that situation. I mean, olden days, you know, all those tactics of delaying games and stuff were also played. And good of vampires that they carried on, it was literally dark. England needs six runs to win. The light is absolutely appalling here in Karachi. It'll be Sakhlin Mushtaq to come round the wicket to bowl to the left-handed fork and yet another adjustment in the field as mid-wicket is sent right out. Six runs needed. In comes Sakhlin, round the wicket, bowls the Thorpe. Thorpe is driven through the offside. And it's nobody can see. The ball is quite extraordinary. They've run. It's gone for four. Now, that's the most extraordinary thing I think I've ever seen in the crooked field. Grae and Thorpe drove it to extra cover and the man had extra cover and long off just looked at the ball. Well, they didn't look and they had no idea where the ball was going. Neither did we. But the end product was four runs for Grae and Thorpe. If I remember correctly, I don't think Karachi Stadium had lights those days, so you could see all those lights, you know, bright lights through the dressing rooms and from those stands and boxes, they were like really bright. So it was very, very dark and he played like a champion. That knock he played in the dark and he stuck out that period and believed himself. I think he was not out. He went out the winners and there was one hell of a test match and he played some and he played a great knock in winning that test match. What was your view of it as it was happening as he was playing that innings as much as you could see, of course? I mean, they were losing wickets and but they just kept on going. I mean, it was probably the very first time we saw that England carried on playing in that sort of light because playing in England, all those years and in all those older days we used to have those lights, which indicates that the light is not good or you can carry on playing or you can't play. I mean, there were no lights and it was literally very dark and good of NAS that he believed in his team that they can win this test match and they carried on playing and at the end they managed and we had a really good bowling attack and they managed and I think it played a very pivotal role in England cricket to sort of coming in subcontinent beating in Pakistan in that test match. From there on, I thought that the belief in England's sides increased heavily and they became a very fine side. What made him such a special player do you think? I think he was a very complete player. I mean, his technique was very solid. Cricket over the years have changed. I remember that but in that era, playing against such a quality ballinger from around the world and he managed to get runs in all parts of the world and that's purely because he had such a solid technique and he was very solid in defense and when he wanted to attack and he was equally good in attacking. So he was a very complete player and played shots all around the ground, very aggressive when he wanted and when he wanted to put the shutters down, he was just... It was a great number three batter England had produced. How will you remember him then? Walk up before we let you go. Look, I'll remember him. If you talk about cricket, yeah, of course, a great player but as a friend, he's left a big hole in my life so I'll remember him as my brother. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. This podcast is brought to you by E-Harmony. The dating app to find someone you can be yourself with. Why doesn't E-Harmony allow copy and paste in first messages? 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Goodness, I sort of like it for you guys whenever you do any commentary having to do it in conditions like that because nobody could see anything. I could just imagine if I was a radio pundit trying to commentate because, I mean, at certain times, I've worked for you guys. Sometimes when the sun's a bit low, you still, you find difficulty immediately. And that's with floodlights. So can you imagine in the pitch black in Karachi trying to find where the ball's gone, trying to work out what's happened, fielders just sort of arms can't raise you. It was this art of carnage. But in a month, it was a beautiful moment because it had been so long that England hadn't won overseas in Pakistan for many, many years. And it just, for me, that moment just summed up Graham really, the feeler headband, that tatty headbander used to wear. He used to watch that thing drying on the radiator. It's like being a young talk man, you're sort of having to figure it out mate. So I handed it to him and it was full of holes, but he just loved that thing. And he would always go on and then he would be the floppy hat when it toughest or it would be the helmet. But yeah, it was very great. I'll tell you something, I'll tell you something, they've got it easy now, these boys. That was when you had the word every single victory with the sweat and the blood. You have to somewhere, I'll get yourself over the line. And interestingly, what Watar was saying there a little bit actually, that team, you know, the confidence levels were very, very low around that time because it was, you know, as I said earlier, it was a little bit in chaos. But then he was the main sort of like effect that got that confidence going again, I think, you know what I mean, in the guys to go out there and face off against these wonderful sides. You know, let's be fair, we've given us a bit of a thrashing, you know what I mean? But he started to try and sort of turn that around through his own performance and that and that getting it over the line, you know, get over the line at all costs, you know, don't get a flashy 50 and think you've done your job, you know, it makes sure that you've got the job done. I also just think, George, as well, that he clearly, he would have absolutely slotted in seamlessly to the England era just after him. As people remember, it was such a big story when Kevin Peterson was picked for the actual series, which actually in 2005 was the one where, you know, players became even more rock stars than they were, if you like, you know, that amazing series, which captured the nation and everything came with it with, you know, the falling out of Buckingham Palace and Douding Street and all that kind of thing. He would have been right amongst that, I'm sure. No, absolutely. I think, you know, my vivid memories of him, the player had the blue, wasn't he on the side of his helmet? And I just think like that, nobody else had had that in that era and that made him stand down. I think then the way that he played as well. I think he would have fitted into any team. I think he was that kind of player. I think he'd got all the shots, he knew exactly how he was going to take the bowlers down and sounds like he was a really fantastic role model and person in the dressing room as well, more importantly. Right, we've still got a few minutes left and I just thought it would be good just to kind of get, you know, how you will remember Graham thought from all of you. So Phil, why don't you kick us off? I'm just going to say I loved him like a brother, as simple as that, and he'll be hugely pissed. Yeah, Michael. He was my hero. Simple as that. And, you know, he had a huge part of my life and, you know, helping me in my developing years. And, you know, I'm like, we feel one now. I'll just miss him greatly. Same hero growing up, somebody that I really looked up to, somebody that made me fall in love with the game and especially the way that he played it. And then laterally when I got to meet him, a fantastic human being. Well said all of you and well done all of you. I know that was really, really difficult for all of you. I just want to say as well, if anybody listening has been affected by any of the issues that we've been discussing, you can find details of organisations who can help via the BBC Action Line. It's www.bbc.co.uk/actionline. Well done, all of you, Georgia. Michael Phil, thank you all very much. Michael Carbury, Phil Tuffnell and Georgia Elwis on this test match special podcast. Until next time, thank you for listening. On BBC Sounds, this is sports strangest crimes from a man who tried to buy crickets. One night, one game, one to take off, 20 US million dollars. The kidnap of a super horse. It must have been terrifying. Of course it was. How we got through what I got. 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