Philosophy at the Movies

Captain America, Winter Soldier

What does this 2014 film based upon the Marvel Comic character, Captain America, tell us about counterintelligence and counter-terror surveillance? How does the film cash in on conspiracy theories using the idea that the secret organization, "Hydra," is in control of the major governments of the world, as well as terror organizations? How does the film explore the ethical challenges involved in the balancing of free society and security? How does the film explore the issues surrounding military use of human enhancement? How does the character Bucky illustrate? How does the film portray the ethical issues involved in whistle-blowing? How does the film explore Captain America’s status as a symbol during WWII? Why does he feel guilt for his role as contrasted with that of his sidekick Bucky? Does this superhero’s being portrayed and taking part in major battles during WWII undermine public appreciation for the front-line soldiers who actually fought that war?

Duration:: 43m
Broadcast on:: 11 Aug 2024
Audio Format:: mp3

You're listening to a radio stockdale podcast, podcasts that are inspiring, interactive and feature various discussions of leadership, ethics and law. Welcome to Philosophy at the Movies, a podcast we discuss themes in the history of philosophy through the medium of films. I'm Alex Baker and joining me as always, Sean Baker. Today's topic is the 2014 film Captain America Winter Soldier. So this is the long running, much prolific MCU series we are a Marvel Cinematic Universe where we're doing one. I figured it's kind of close to 4th of July time, we haven't done a comic book in a while and we did Batman's, we've done Batman multiple times so I didn't want to do another Batman. You know what, this is considered one of their best works. Let's go into this. I guess before I talk about the plot, there's with MCU and Marvel, there's a lot of backstory so I guess I'll go briefly of the backstory, the first, this is a second in the series but the first Captain America and Captain America as a character, his creation was during the 1940s in World War II, there was a super soldier serum I believe it's what it was called. And they were looking for something, it would enhance their muscular features to peak human physical condition for, you know, extra heavy combat missions. And I think they wanted somebody who, what, either was somebody who was in scrawny condition like Steve Rogers was in the movie, the first movie you see him, like they did this CGI where he's like looks like 100 pounds soaking wet with a brick in each pocket. Yes, yes. They do this, they do the experiment on him in success but there's a Nazi spy who kills the scientist so they can't make any more so it's only Steve Rogers and he goes on, goes on the military combat tours with people like Peggy Carter who's a love interest but also his friend Bucky Barnes. Yes. And the comics Barnes is more of like a younger kid but in the comic, in the movie they've been friends since childhood. Yes. And then they go on missions, eventually there's a mission where Bucky dies or thinks he's dead. They think he's dead. And then Captain America is, there was a movie, it's like a, they call it the Tesseract, it's this cosmic cube. It's a Macguffin but they go, he, the only way you can do it is he sacrifices himself so he destroys the thing, he gets frozen in ice and they've been doing this in the comics so basically every 30 years he'll get revived for the next big age but he comes, they get somebody finds him, they wake him up and he becomes part of the Avengers. Yeah. So that's kind of where we're at this time. He's worked now with Shield because Peggy Carter who is still alive at this point, she's in her 90s. Yeah. She founded Shield and it's, it's basically like the CIA and the head of. Of course it's, it's another layer, another layer removed from public scrutiny. Yes. From the CIA. The CIA actually, I think, I got this from the film, right? The CIA actually is not fully cognizant of Shield's existence either. So as any, any good intelligence agencies do, they tend to compartmentalize as, as referenced in the film so that no, no, no single person in the organization knows too much about the organization as a whole but also it's into relationships with other ones. So it's a super secret organization. Like the CIA slash OSS was back when it was first founded, we forget, but back then there were official denials of its very existence. So that's kind of the model for Shield, I think. Yeah. Yes. And we see the very opening scene. Well, first there's a funny little scene when Rogers is working out around DC and he keeps going on your left to be another guy of Sam Wilson. Yeah. After a while, Wilson just, he gets one of the scenes, he does it for the third time and goes, "Nope, nope. You're not doing it to me again?" Yes. That's hilarious. And they start bonding and Wilson is also a veteran of, assuming, you know, Iraq, Afghanistan. They don't specifically say, but they bond with that and then Rogers is now meeting with Black Widow who was, they don't, I don't think they mentioned the movie, but she was originally recruited as part of the Russians. Yeah. They do mention it briefly. Yeah. And at the end, right? They say, "How can we trust you with that Senate oversight committee meeting? How can we trust you? You used to work for the enemy." So they do mention it, but they don't elaborate it on it to any great extent. I'm sure if we read the comic books that we know all the details. Yes. So there is a, they are now on a mission to rescue hostages on a boat. And while Captain America and this other group are leading the Red Doom in the rescue effort, he runs into Black Widow and she's gathering data from the ship's computers. Yeah. And this is something Rogers was not told about. Yeah. And so they, they eventually, she gets the data, they rescue the rescue, they make the rescue mission works, but then he goes to Nick Fury, who's the head of shield, and he says, you know, you know, "Why are you hiding things from me?" Yeah. And then they're, one of the things they're looking up is something called Project Insight. Mm-hmm. And it's good. It's about three helicarriers linked to certain spice analytes, basically to have this total supervision over everything and anything that. So yeah, Insight's essentially a, a modern technological equivalent of Jeremy Bentham's Panopticon, which was a, a, a designed prison. Now I'm not saying that the world is here being conceived as a prison, but the important point is that the design, the prison was designed so that a very few number of guards would be able to easily monitor every single cell in the prison. So this, this, this system with these flying platforms in geocentricness, satellites to which they can link, they're literally able to watch everybody on the planet. So I guess the closest equivalent in the real world for us would be the Chinese monitoring system they use on their own citizens. So it's, it's conceived to be something like that, and the justification for it is essentially this, given the time period, when this film was produced, no surprise, it was kind of in the aftermath of one of several re-upings of the Patriot Act, right? So clearly in American culture, that, that's what they're kind of commenting upon. And the justification is, it's, it's a necessary, a necessary compromise with freedom because of the unique, unique, unique nature of modern terrorist threats. So yeah, that's actually, that's the cover story for it, but anyway, go ahead. When the theory tries to encrypt the data that, of Black Widow was collected, he's not able to. And so he's unsure about this project insight now, and so he meets with the, the Secretary of International Security, Alex and your peers, played by Robert Redford. Yes, Robert Redford was in a superhero movie, but he wants to delay the project because he has problems with it, and they've had a working relationship for many decades. Yes. And then later on, fear he's just out on the road, and he is ambushed by, he's a salience to disguised as police officers, but not police officers because he makes sure that there is no police activity. So after a big, long, crazy shootout, and one of, I believe one of the assassins has this mysterious man with this robotic arm and long hair and mass, we don't know who he is, we didn't get a good look at him. Yeah. But eventually he's able to escape to Nick Fierick of the Rogers department. Right. And he tells him, he kind of says, "Be careful of the place is bugged." So he has like a little, little note telling him what's going on. It's on his smart phone, right? Yeah. Shield has been compromised. Nobody don't trust anybody. He's oddly enough trusting his phone though. So they're having this innocuous conversation, right, and he's typing what he wants Steve to really see on the phone and showing him clever enough, but come on, Nick, you should know better than this. They're probably monitoring your phone as well. Yes. There's another shootout, and the same mysterious person, Captain America, goes after him. He gets his famous shield, and he throws the shield at him, but this person is able to grab it and just throw it back at him. Yeah. Eventually they're able to escape, but Furi is now shot, and they go to surgery, and he's found dead. Yeah. But what has that far drive, and she puts it like a couple of rows pack and a vending machine. I guess hopefully nobody is hungry for those bubble gum wrap, whatever she hit him behind. Yeah. And then her and Rogers go off. Pierce meets with him saying, you know, did he say anything, and he said, well, not to trust anybody. So he refuses to tell him anything of what Furi was discussing, and eventually find out Pierce is a bad guy. He's working with the enemy organization called Hydra, and he has Captain America and Black Widow declared enemies, and they're on their run. Yeah. Here, let's get clear about what Hydra here is here. It's kind of a super secret organization of Nazis. Yeah. Yeah. Originally started out with Nazis. With the Red Skull. It's part of them. Yeah. Eventually, Romanov and Black Widow and Rogers go on their run. They go back to an old bunker in New Jersey, which is, I believe, one of the boot camps where Rogers first served in the war. Yes, yes. They go underground. They see a supercomputer, which is the consciousness of Arnhem Zola, one of the scientists of Hydra. I believe he created the Red Skull, one of the people behind the Red Skull, and he revealed that after the war, he was brought into shield, and he was able to securely place Hydra agents within shield to make sure that they were always within the ranks, and then we find out who the Winter Soldier is at this point, that it is Bucky. He was brought back and used to carry off certain assassination attempts over the years. The science may not actually hold up, but apparently they keep him in hibernation until they want him to pull off a hit, and they put him back in hibernation, so he's only aged a couple of years. Yes. Yes. And the cryogenic freeze is what they're doing, and allegedly, if it's ever successfully accomplished, it slows down metabolism to a very slow pace. You can explain how come he hasn't aged so much on their basis. Yeah. But what project insight is, they're going to use those helicarriers, not for the good of shield or America, they're using it for the good of Hydra. Anybody they deem a threat, they're going to take out with the helicar, and they can do it all over the world. Yeah, and doing it in the guise of providing security, right? Yes. And it's a vast, is a vast conspiracy, because they are also behind in steering the acts of terrorist organizations and other things. They have their tentacles and all sides of all conflicts, and they're purposefully doing all this and orchestrating it so they can take over. Like a specter in the James Bond. Yes. Like that. Yeah. Yeah. But eventually they-- Or the Illuminati in the conspiracy theory in the world. Yes. So eventually, the one place personally no can help them out is Sam Wilson, the friend we meet in the beginning. Yeah. Because he figured Sam Wilson was a pilot, because he's talking about his experiences. Yeah. Sort of. Because he has a wing pack, where you can-- like a jet pack thing, reflies, and he has the wings of a falcon. Yes. Sam Wilson is the superhero of the falcon. The falcon. Yeah. And they go on and they try to get into a-- and then it gets kind of-- it gets a little bit typical marvel where there's a big third act with a lot of explosions and gun fights. Yes. Yeah. And people, her name is Agent 13, and she was monitoring Rogers without his notice when he's in that hotel. She pretends to be his next door neighbor. Yeah. She kind of realizes that Captain America is right. He is able to reach to other people in agency. You've been lied to. There are people in Hydra. It leads to a big-- kind of a big crazy shootout. I won't get into it, but you know, eventually there's a showdown between him and Bucky on the helicarriers. And eventually Bucky starts to remember who he is, because Captain America, Black Widow and Shield are able to get Alexander Pierce, Pierce dies, and they're able to save the world without the helicarrier attacks. They destroy the helicarriers. Yep. Rogers drowns almost, but he is saved by Bucky. Yep. And then Bucky disappears. They don't know where he is, but all this stuff comes out, but Black Widow and Nick Fury make their testimony because Fury faked his own death. We should forget to bring up that. Yes. And then that's pretty much the end of the story. Yes. And they set it up for the sequel, of course. Yes. And if we-- I don't know if you bothered watching the post credits, but there's a post credit setting up what would have been Avengers 2. Oh. We see two new superheroes, the Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver, but we don't need to-- that's not unimportant. Yeah. Yeah. But also another scene we see is Bucky going to that Smithsonian institution with all the Captain America gear. Yes. That's the movie. And this is considered one of the better ones. I do, overall, enjoy it, but I do get a third act when it kind of gets into the big shootout battle. It kind of-- my brain goes on Cruz. Yeah. It's another CGI fest, that's for sure. But what's good about it, I mean, you know, for me diving into this universe, the comic book universe, you know, it's easy to kind of get lost and lose track of things, preparing for watching this thing. I tried to read up on the history of Captain America, and I think it was a Wikipedia article and trying to summarize literally everything that's ever been written about the story. And it's, to say the least, Byzantine and Baroque. There's so many details and so many subplots and literally three or four different Captain America's that my head was swimming, and I thought, "Oh my God, if this movie is going to any way rely on that, I'm in some serious trouble." So I kind of went into watching it with a little bit of foreboding. You even gave me the graphic novel called The Winter Soldier that it's loosely based on. And I would say very loosely. That's a significantly different story in the graphic novel. And even that one leaves you hanging. You're in the middle of obviously a greater chain of events even in that one. But what I do like about the film is they did a decent job of making this stand-alone story and providing you with enough, I think, ethical meat to allow it to stand on its own legs, and you don't have to know everything there is to know about the stories leading up to the episode or things afterward. You don't have to watch the sequels to wrap up the stories so to speak unless you're curious about to see what happens with Bucky. But for that reason, I kind of liked it, and it's also, like I said, kind of an artifact of its time, it's a commentary on that age-old dilemma, the balancing of security with freedom. And I like it that it doesn't take, I was kind of thinking it might take the kind of simplistic as it were whistleblower's role in this and say, you know, the people that advocate for the kind of security apparatus that you see in this insight program, or the Patriot Act more realistically, or other kinds of things that the CIA and the FBI do on a regular basis are in some way one-dimensional evil enemies of freedom. I was hoping against hope that there wouldn't be any kind of, to use the phrase, comic book caricatures along those lines, and there aren't, because in the character of Nick Fury, you see with his dialogue with other characters and also with his catalogs with Captain America and other characters, I should say. He's more than aware of the tension that exists in a free society between the need for security and a consequent need for surveillance and sometimes preemptive actions, balance between that and constitutional freedoms in American society. He's very well aware of that, and he's not simplistically comfortable with what he's doing, right? But he still says in the end it's unavoidable. We have to do it given the nature of the modern world and the nature of modern threats. And the movie takes a sympathetic view of that view, I think. And that's why I like it, I think, among other reasons. I mean, there's another interesting theme, just the general, and it's a superhero theme really, but it's particularly interesting in the case of Captain America, what's often called enhanced enhancements of humanity, which means intentionally designed enhancements of humanity. This is a big topic in military ethics, because that kind of thing has actually been around for decades. And a classic example is the use of amphetamines and other sorts of drugs by the Germans on their own troops. Well, these days we're talking about genetic and neurological modifications that will allow people to, quote, "be super soldiers." And there are ethical implications with regard to that. Is it how do you balance the interests of those people that are going to be the modified super soldiers against the interests of state? And what do you do with them after they've served, and they've grown old? Although apparently this never happens with Captain America. They just get frozen again. Yeah, they just get frozen again, but in the real world they're going to age. And you know, what do you do with them at that point? What do you owe them? All those kinds of questions arise, I think, with Captain America and Bucky, in particular. I think they owe Bucky quite a lot. I mean, he's been through hell and back, and has actually had his mind wiped by the bihydra. And Captain America feels the pull of that moral obligation to his old friend. Well, the state has an obligation to him, too, because if it wasn't for the state's interests, he wouldn't have been kidnapped and modified in that way. So it brings up all these kinds of issues, and that's why I like it. Because it made the stuff about surveillance, and you talk about modern issues, the Patriot Act, but even just in recent news, Julian Assange, after many years, was finally let go and what he did with the WikiLeaks release of the documents. And it reminded me a bit of the Dark Knight, when the people controversy was that movie was when Batman is using all these surveillance methods to find out where the Joker is going, and that was clearly a commentary on the Patriot Act, people were saying it was this movie Pro-Patriot Act. But I think one of the things, because you do see any reviews or analysis of this movie, one of the tiresome things I keep hearing is '70s political throwers, '70s conspiracy theory, '70s, '70s, '70s, '70s, because Robert Redford's in it, but also because he'll say these movie three days of the Condor, but also I would think of most famous movies, all the president's men with Woodward and Bernstein, but also the Pentagon Papers, that was a big release roughly around the same time as Watergate. So it is that '70s thing people kept bringing up with the analysis of this movie, but the more modern. Well, I wouldn't say there's any kind of direct, as it were, linear descent from those kinds of movies and the issues in the '60s and '70s. I think it is more directly connected with the issues in the 2000s, post-9/11. But it's interesting you bring up Ellsberg, a Pentagon's paper guy, and Julian Assange. Julian Assange makes a very brief appearance in this film. If you notice, there's some film clips they show as the conspiracy is being explained. I think Redford's even doing the explaining, if I recall correctly. The thing that's interesting about those two cases is the tendency of those that lionize its people like this, like Ellsberg or Brave Sir Julian, is that they paint them as "whistle-blowers." Technically that's not correct. Well, technically it is correct in the one case, Ellsberg, but it's not correct in the case of Assange. Whistle-blowers are supposed to be, and this is what the statutes actually say, that cover them. Well within organizations who are part of the bureaucracy, and part of sometimes even the decision-making apparatus, who have decided for whatever reason that they need to bring these pieces of information to public view, Ellsberg fits that description. He was working in the Pentagon, obviously, and felt it necessary to release this vast trove of papers that had to do with the Kennedy and Johnson administrations that treat actions in Vietnam and in Do-China more generally. Now, what's kind of interesting in his case, and Assange, I should say, before I move on here, is he was in no way associated with the U.S. government. He was an Australian citizen. He was running this website called Winky Leagues, and he basically would just encourage people to submit things to him, and so best his connection is indirect. And at any rate, what's in common with both of these kinds of cases is these people, what's troubling about them, and I think this is an interesting description, I don't get to why, but what's troubling about these cases is that in each case, even in the case of Ellsberg, these whistleblowers have taken it upon themselves to be essentially the jury and the judge as to whether or not the information should be released or not. Now, that gives them a very high bar that they're going to have to clear in order to avoid legal repercussions, and I think that's correct. That's primarily why Nixon went to the length he did, which ultimately ended up being having people break into Ellsberg's psychiatrist's office to prevent the release of the Pentagon papers, and ultimately the newspapers ignored him and did it anyway, but he had legitimate concerns because there were a substantial number of sources that were put at risk by the release of this information. Now, having said all that, they didn't really explore this issue too much in the film, and they kind of covered the basis, so to speak, by having hydro, and notice it is hydro, I think that's interesting, you know, multiple tentacles, clearly the image is there, but there's kind of covering every conceivable aspect of political reality in this world, so allegedly if somebody like an Ellsberg or a son who does appear in the film is releasing information, it's because hydro wants it released, you know, so that kind of conveniently short circuits, any question as to the ethical advisability of their actions, makes it very simple, but at any rate, I mean, I remember when I saw that scene in the film, I kind of, I'm not a big fan of Julian Assange, and as you can probably tell, I'm not a big fan of Ellsberg either, I think he's a despicable human being, but I started to roll back in my head when I saw his son, just said, "Oh no, they're not going to go there with this, are they?" And they don't, they don't. He's a hydrated, maybe that's the opposite, well I'm okay with that, I mean if that's the case, but at any rate, it is interesting, and again, it brings up an ethically, a very ethically charged area that isn't going to go away any time soon, because as long as governments exist, there will be people that leak information. And it's much more frequently done now, you have to say too, there are a lot of people with partisan invested interests that on a regular basis now, leak information to the press, because they want to harm an administration or agency or something like that. To his credit, I think Nixon predicted this, after Ellsberg did what he did, it's become so commonplace, we don't even take it seriously anymore now, Assange is the case in point. He was essentially allowed to plead guilty to charges, and allowed to go back home to Australia. Now granted, he had to live in Ecuador for a while, and he had to live in Ecuadorian embassy in London for a few years, but you know, hey, that's a risk you take when you decide you were going to be just jury, and as it were, executioner. So like I said, don't have a great deal of pity for the man, but anyway. It's interesting we talk about this, when you talk about the comic, it goes in a vastly different direction. If I had to say between the two, I actually got more, I would say, out of the comic. If the story's a lot different, I mean it does reflect Captain America post 9/11, because it's not Hydra, but it's called AIM, like that's the name of the group I forgot AIM stands for, but they're like, they're terrorists, but they're going around very certain areas, trying to stop various terrorist activities, and of course, you find out once again that the Winter Soldier bring Bucky back, but what I enjoyed about it is just kind of how his World of War II service lingers over the entire story, how it's a flashbacks to a lot of the service, meaning Bucky for the first time, and the main villain in this one is Alexander, not Pierce, but Luskin, who was a Russian, and he was with Captain America when they were fighting the Nazis in Russia, and in the comic, there was a fight in the village with the Red Skull, and something goes wrong with a lot of people in the village die and Luskin blames Captain America for that. Yeah, and Captain America, in one scene, I forget exactly when it was, but he doesn't like Luskin's methods, but he feels it's necessary to acquiesce in them given the fact that they're fighting World War II. Yeah, it's the finest enemy. So, a commentary there on the Soviet-American relationship during that war, because we do have to remember that before Nazi Germany and Russia were fighting, they were allies and they basically split up Poland, there was an agreement there, so an uneasy alliance for sure, because Hitler was no fan of communist Russia, and communist Russia was no friend of Hitler's, but it was an alliance of convenience. So when the tables turned, we had to take on that alliance of convenience because more than a few people knew the true nature of communist Russia, but it was a real world decision where idealism just has to take a back seat, and we see Captain America having to do that in that comic book as well. Yeah, in the comic, what I thought was interesting, how they talked about how important symbols were during that war, because the Red Skull was created by Hitler to be this image of Nazi power, Nazi authority, and then that the Captain America himself was created to counter that, and then when they later on, because I'm not sure if you read the part where he meets Bucky for the first time, but in Bucky they said, well, you know, there's a thing, we have to counter the Hitler youth, because Hitler youth is made to get the young, the children invested in the principles of the Nazi party. We need something to counter that, so we need you to have a sidekick in the history of the comics. It was probably about, well, Batman's got Robin, so Captain America had Bucky, but in reality. But even in, they talk about how Bucky, a certain dirtier side of that was Bucky was meant to do the jobs Captain America couldn't do, because Captain America is this, you know, truth, honor, justice, the American way. Yes. But when you're fighting a war, you're going to have to do some dirty things. Bucky is the one that had to do it, and he's the one that had to pay the psychological, moral, and emotional price for doing so, too. Captain America is very well aware of that. You see, sir. It's kind of interesting that, I'm sorry, when, when I was reading that part of the comic book and also seeing those parts of the film that kind of portrayed that role of Captain America and being the propaganda poster more or less, you know what it brought to mind to me was, it brought to mind to me Douglas MacArthur, because a significant number of the men that he was in command of in the Philippines really resented him because he was the poster boy, he was the guy with all the epilots, and the pipe, and the fancy designed uniform that they didn't know it, but he was ordered to leave them behind on Corrigador, right? And they kind of resented the fact that he kind of gets all the glory while they do all the dirty work. They're the buckies of that world. What's that? Doug out, Doug. Doug out, Doug. Yeah, they called him Doug out, Doug, because, you know, he's safely ensconced back there while they were doing all the dirty work, and, you know, kind of an artifact of that uneasy relationship was that General Wainwright, who had been left behind in the Philippines, he suffered terribly in Japanese prison camps, and the government basically said, "Doug, you need to have Jim Wainwright on the Missouri on September the 2nd when we do that signing ceremony for the surrender." And he was a little reticent, because he was obviously in bad shape, still skinny, still recovering from the experience, but he did have him there. So another feature, both the comic book and the film, although I think you're right, the comic book does a much better job of portraying this aspect of the story here. symbolism during the war and they talk of one of the my favorite parts of the comic is he visits the graves of The other Captain America's that fall them after his time in the ice. Yes They were certain there was one not even necessarily Captain America, but there was another one called like the Patriot the Patriot Yes, he was just like a Revolutionary had the tricorn head on yeah, and then Britain had their own like I think it was called Union Jack Yes dressed up in the Union Jack put needed for that. Yes, and they don't he's never mentioned in the comic and the comic But there was a during the Cold War there was the Crimson Dynamo who was Russia's answer to yes Captain America Yeah, but it's interesting we talk about the cop that comics and Captain America was created the very first issue It was in 40 or 41. I think it is the same as first issue is him punching Hitler right in the jaw Yeah, yeah, what's it's because he did serve time in combat, but some comic book writers find his idea offensive give a little bit shout out a Garth Ennis and if you're Dead reckoning comics, which is not too far from the Stockdale Center. Also on the Naval Academy That's part of the Naval Institute press. Yeah, they specifically do I write a few of them a lot of military related comics Yes, he's done a few He did one about called the string bags about a certain group of British aviators during World War two Tankies about British tankies from Ireland. Yeah British tank unit He did a really good story about Tuskegee Airmen Father telling his son who's angry at his father because he feels he's not doing enough is at the 60s He's feeling he's not doing enough for the civil rights movement He tells him his experience as a Tuskegee Airmen. He's done a lot of war stuff. Yeah And Garth that the name rings a bell He also is probably most famous work is the boys which is a satire on superheroes and superhero teams and he Absolutely hates Captain America He's one of his quotes is he finds Captain America borderline offensive because to me the reality of World War two was very human people Ordinary flesh and blood guys who slotted out in miserable flooded foxholes So adding some fantasy superhero narrative that always annoys me. Yeah, and I think Because he's basically saying I think that When you have Captain America doing something like storming the beaches of Normandy going into these battles taking out Nazi soldiers It's saying well the art the written real flesh and blood guys the non supers. They couldn't do it without him He's the one doing all the risks. He's the one doing the medals. Audie Murphy who know we have Captain America Yeah, and I think I appreciate it I think if you read read some of his stuff particularly military comics. He knows what he's talking He's a very knowledgeable about the words he writes about. Yeah, I think he's a bit off on this He probably is I mean And I can understand I can certainly understand the point of view. He's coming from but another more charitable way I think to read characters like Captain America or the Patriot or Union Jack is that they are not as it were Supplements and big brothers for all the the grunts doing the the actual fighting. No, they're symbolic of the grunts doing the actual fighting That's what I always got the impression of They are not dug out dog They are in they are fighting on the front They're not necessarily leaders, but they are certainly symbolic of and representatives of the ideals of the country and They are also symbolic and representative of the people that fight for the ideals of those countries So yeah, I understand I sympathize But I probably would pull a line from stripes with the guy and just say hey lighten up Francis It is after all only a comic book. You may be reading too much into it Not only does he hate Captain America. I think he believed he just hates the idea of superheroes in general His also Captain America was the basis for a soldier boy in the comic the boys and in the TV show and the comics He's a complete doofus and buffoon in the show He's a psychopath and also that he brags about storing the beaches and or he was on Omaha Beach Oh boy, not that he was a complete for so he's a stolen fraud stolen valor guys. Yeah, okay So he doesn't like him, but one of the characters he does admire He's one of his most famous runs was on the Punisher the Punisher in Canon was a Vietnam veteran Yeah, he wrote two stories about Punishers tours in Vietnam one was him It's kind of contrasting him entering Vietnam for the first time with this fanatical young Female soldier of the north of Vietnamese and basically the leading down to them having this final showdown in the battle Well, and then the final one it was like his very last tour in Vietnam is everybody starting to pull out But he has one big battle. Yeah, but so he well notice the punisher as far as I know He has no super super abilities, right? His big thing is he just all superheroes mostly have a no-kill rule Punisher doesn't care Yeah, yeah, definitely so he's actually It's not too easy for him Right, and I guess I guess in this could say you know It's too easy for these darn superheroes and the implication is that the right like you said The regular guys wouldn't would be losing battles left and right without the help of these guys with these superpowers Well notice you don't have anything like that with the Punisher going on First he fights on his own so to speak, but he's he also doesn't have any Superpowers, so he has to rely on his intelligence and his ability to invent things and things like that So he's more of a regular guy I guess but the interesting it's it but it's also interesting that he doesn't have any compunction about Killing the bad guys and so forth either, so That's a reflection of the hard reality of the soldier on the front line They have to do that that is their job and Yeah, you have to do it within the strictures of you know, just war he can't do it immorally sure enough But still that's their job And you can see the Punisher particularly I remember his famous Insignia is the skull. Yeah, I remember a lot of times you see a lot of soldiers particularly in that rack and Afghanistan half of it Especially when the show came out there was a show the Punisher. Yeah, they wore that same outfit. Yes, that's right Yeah, that's right the exact same logo, you know All right getting close to the end of my questions Anything else you want to bring up before I sign up one thing I want to bring up up for the graft novel I would highly recommend it's written by Ed Brubreker, and I believe Ed Brubreker dad served in the Navy and he was a Navy brat. Well, he always had a big thing for Bucky, and he fell was wrong that he gets killed off So that's why he brought him back he actually cameos in the film when Bucky is brought back and Pierce looks him over and he's one of like the scientists that look look him over Oh, I believe one of the funny things is he said I got paid more for that cameo than whatever I got paid for doing the winter soldier and I think boy, that's a really good reflection of Comic comic artists and how they don't quite get the compensation or respect or deserve especially when things When they make so much money like this one did. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting and you bring up the cameo We do have to mention Stan Lee's cameo. It's hilarious He does that in every film I'm taking it. Is that right? Okay, so yeah, so Spoiler or it's kind of funny. He's he's the security guard at the Smithsonian, right? And there's this display at the Smithsonian you referenced early or were Captain America much to Garth Innes's chagrin is standing at the front Of a set of soldiers and airmen and sailors, you know in uniform and he's in uniform there Well, it turns out Captain America needs that uniform to go fight off the Hydra so he steals it so the next day You know Stan Lee the security guard shows up and looks and sees the mannequin with nothing on it He goes, oh boy. Am I in trouble? I liked that cameo. I know that was me I should bring up the two guys who created Captain America Jack Kirby and Joe Joe Simon Kirby did Because of his working in comics he did reconnaissance work for the military during World War II and I Joe Simon I believed it's something along the similar line. So he was written by people who did serve Yeah, right isn't just a bunch of people just letting a superhero take all the credit for the grunts. Yes. Yeah Turn up. Well, thank you for listening to this week's episode of philosophy at the movies You can find this podcast and more podcast produced by the soft deal center by visiting the radio stockdale page at usnay Edu this program is hosted by radio stockdale Nick can also listen to their podcast such as ethics a naval warrior in the do-over We like this podcast and might be interested in my other podcast real sounds rich episode a decade to classic movie soundtracks I may find a line to send us emma dot automatic dot com. So finally our next episode We are finally going to discuss Oppenheimer. Yes. It's mid July recording here mid July That doesn't mean we'll actually record this one anywhere near July probably, but we have to remember the Trinity Trent test was July 16th if I'm not mistaken and So it's high time. We did Oppenheimer anything. You'll hope we hold it off. I'm been promising it So we're finally gonna give you Oppenheimer, but so until next time I'm Alex Baker and I'm Shawn Baker on your left You (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (gentle music) (upbeat music)