Mokuhanga becomes a part of those who open themselves to its possibilities. It draws you in as an art form, with its seeming simplicity, and guides you on a profound journey of exploration. One of the strengths of mokuhanga as a practice is its ability to harmonize with other artistic and academic endeavors, enriching one's life in many ways. On this episode of The Unfinished Print, I speak with William Mathie, a teacher and relief printmaker based in Pennsylvania. We discuss Bill’s discovery of mokuhanga in the 1980s and how his academic and artistic journey in printmaking evolved, leading him to rediscover mokuhanga later in life. Bill and I delve into his personal mokuhanga teachers, his work on the Pennsylvania Print Symposium in 2006, his printmaking philosophies, his time at the First International Mokuhanga Conference in Awaji and Kyoto, and we also explore his own mokuhanga work, materials, making tools and how he views mokuhanga through an academic lens.
Please follow The Unfinished Print and my own mokuhanga work on Instagram @andrezadoroznyprints or email me at theunfinishedprint@gmail.com
Notes: may contain a hyperlink. Simply click on the highlighted word or phrase.
Artists works follow after the note if available. Pieces are mokuhanga unless otherwise noted. Dimensions are given if known. Print publishers are given if known.
William Mathie -
website,
Instagram Guarding The Cheese The golden age of mokuhanga is generally considered to be during the Edo period (1603-1898), when the art of color woodcut flourished in Japan. Although woodblock printing in Japan has its origins around 700 CE, color woodblock printing began in 1743. Rudy Pozzati (1925-2021) - was an American Professor Emeritus, painter, and printmaker who traveled extensively through grants early in life. Later, he served as a professor at Indiana University Bloomington from 1956 to 1991. Indiana University is a public research university in Bloomington, Indiana. He worked in various styles of printmaking and studied mokuhanga in Japan in the 1980s. Man-eating Mares of King Diomedes (2009) one colour lithograph, 24 3/4" x 33 3/4" The Adachi Institute of Woodblock Prints - is a print studio located in Tōkyō. Established in 1994 in order to promote and preserve the colour woodblock print of Japan. More information, in
English and in
Japanese. Kenji Takenaka - is a mokuhanga printmaker based in Kyoto. He is a fifth generation printmaker, who has demonstrated mokuhanga technique throughout the world. He established the Takenaka Woodblock Printing Company (Takesazado) to help teach and promote mokuhanga. More information can be found,
here. Chikurin 10.6" x 15.3" The Japan Foundation - established in October 1972 as a government-affiliated corporation and relaunched in 2003 as an independent administrative institution under the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, promotes international cultural exchange through a variety of programs. With its global network, including offices in Japan and 22 overseas locations, the Foundation focuses on Arts and Cultural Exchange, Japanese-Language Education Overseas, and Japanese Studies and Intellectual Exchange. It is funded by a government endowment, annual subsidies, investment revenue, and private donations. Tuula Moilanen - is a Finnish mokuhanga printmaker and painter based in Finland. She lived and studied in Kyōto from 1989 to 2012, where she learned her printmaking at Kyōto Seika University and from printmaker Akira Kurosaki (1937–2019). Her work can be found
here. Her interview with The Unfinished Print can be found
here. Blooming Sky 2, (2017) 10.2" x 14.2" Yukō Harada - is a mokuhanga printmaker based in Kyoto, and works at Kenji Takenaka's Takesazado and is considered a sixth generation printmaker. An interview with Ms. Harada can be found at
amirisu, here. Rainy Season Stripes 7" x 5" Evan Summer - He is a printmaker and Professor Emeritus based in Kutztown, Pennsylvania. He has an extensive CV of artist-in-residence programs and has focused his print work on etching. More information can be found on his
website, and on
Instagram. Landscape With Sloped Horizon (State 1) lithograph printed by Tim Sheelsey at Corridor Press (2003) 36" x 30" registration - there are several registration methods in mokuhanga. The traditional method is called the kentō registration, where you carve two notches, straight another an "L." There is also a "floating kentō," which is where the notches are cut in a piece of "L" shaped wood and not on the wood where you are cutting your image, hence "floating." Lastly, there are removable "pins," such as ones made by
Ternes Burton. intaglio printing - is a printing method, also called etching, using metal plates such as zinc, and copper, creating “recessed” areas which are printed with ink on the surface of these "recesses.” More info,
here. The MET has info,
here. Andy Farkas - is a mokuhanga printmaker, author, mentor, and documentarian based in Pennsylvania. Andy's interview with The Unfinished Print can be found,
here. Watching Over 16" x 10" serigraphy - is another word for the art of silk screen printing. Silk screen printing can be in on various materials, silk, canvas, paper. lithography: A printing process where images are transferred onto a surface using a flat plate or stone. Edinboro University in Pennsylvania - a part of PennWest Edinboro, is a public university located in Edinboro, Pennsylvania. Established in 1857 as Edinboro Academy and has a rich history of providing higher education. Before becoming part of the Pennsylvania Western University system in 2022, Edinboro University was known for its strong programs in education, art, and nursing. The university offers a wide range of undergraduate and graduate programs, with a commitment to academic excellence and community engagement. John Lysak - is a master printmaker and artist. He is associated, like William Mathie, with Egress Press, a fine art publishing and research component of the Printmaking Area of Edinboro University of Pennsylvania’s Art Department. More information can be found
here Palix River Marshlands (2022) acrylic on board 11" x 17" wood engraving - is a printmaking technique where an artist carves an image with burins and engravers, into the surface of a block of wood. The block is then printed using pigments and pressed into paper. Wood engraving uses the end grain of a hardwood block, typically boxwood. This allows for much finer detail and more intricate lines. Thomas Bewick (1753–1828), and Eric Gill (1882–1940) are some popular wood engravers. The Great Wave off Kanagawa - is a woodblock print designed by Katsushika Hokusai in 1831. It is very famous. Miami University at Ohio - is a public research university in Oxford, Ohio. International Mokuhanga Conference, 2011 - was the first international conference on mokuhanga, held in two locations in Japan: Kyoto and the Awaji Islands, which are located near Shikoku. Keizo Sato - is a second generation mokuhanga printmaker based in Kyoto. Mr. Sato created the Sato Woodblock Print Center to teach mokuhanga. It is associated with Kyoto Seika University. An interview with Mr. Sato conducted by Fine Art JPN can be found,
here. Hiroshi Fujisawa - is a master carver and has been carving mokuhanga for over fifty years. He demonstrated at the first International Mokuhanga Conference in 2011. A lovely blog post about an interaction with Hiroshi Fujisawa can be found,
here on printmaker Annie Bissett's blog. Annie's interview with The Unfinished Print can be found,
here. Karen Kunc - is an American printmaker and Professor Emeritus at the University of Nebraska Lincoln and is based in Nebraska. Karen Kunc works in various artistic and printmaking styles but has worked in mokuhanga for many years. More information can be found on her website,
here. A Cluster (2023) 15" x 11" Young Woman Blowing a Popen - is a mokuhanga print designed by Kitagawa Utamaro (?-1806). Utamaro was one of the first famous woodblock print designers in the Edo Period of Japan made famous by his
bijin prints of beautiful women. The print was first printed in 1792/93. It is from the series Ten Classes of Women's Physiognomy. Energy Policy, 2005 - George W. Bush's energy policy prioritized expanding domestic fossil fuel production, including controversial drilling in protected areas like the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, and offered substantial subsidies to the oil and gas industry while neglecting renewable energy development. Critics argue that this approach increased greenhouse gas emissions, exacerbated climate change, and harmed public health due to higher pollution levels. Additionally, by failing to diversify energy sources and invest in sustainable alternatives, the policy left the U.S. vulnerable to energy security risks and has delayed the transition to a cleaner energy economy. Punch Magazine - Punch magazine, founded in 1841 in London, was a British weekly publication known for its satirical humor and cartoons. Punch played a significant role in shaping British satire and social commentary during the 19th and early 20th centuries. It became famous for its witty and often biting critiques of politics, society, and culture, influencing public opinion. Despite its early success and influence, the magazine eventually declined in readership and ceased publication in 2002. Echizen - is a region in Fukui Prefecture, Japan, known for its long history of papermaking. The area is home to many paper artisans. One notable figure is Iwano Ichibei. He is a Living National Treasure in papermaking and the ninth generation of his family still making paper today. More information can be found here.in
English, and here in
Japanese. Morgan Conservatory of Papermaking - established in 2008, the Morgan Conservatory of Papermaking is a nonprofit organization based in Cleveland, Ohio, dedicated to preserving papermaking techniques from around the world. It also serves as a working studio and gallery. More information can be found
here. The Morgan Library & Museum - based New York City, originally the private library of financier J.P. Morgan, it was established in 1906 and became a public institution in 1924. It houses an extensive collection of rare books, manuscripts, drawings, and prints, including works by literary and musical greats like Charles Dickens and Mozart. The museum also hosts rotating exhibitions and serves as a cultural hub, renowned for its architectural beauty and significant contributions to literature, history, and the arts. More information can be found,
here. © Popular Wheat Productions
opening and closing credit - live music at The Seabird jazz bar in Aoyama, Tōkyō, Japan. logo designed and produced by Douglas Batchelor and André Zadorozny
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***The opinions expressed by guests in The Unfinished Print podcast are not necessarily those of André Zadorozny and of Popular Wheat Productions.***
Popular wheat. Popular wheat. This is the unfinished print. I'm Andruz Adirahasli. Mokahanga becomes a part of those who open themselves to its possibilities. It draws you in as an art form, with its seeming simplicity, and guides you on a profound journey of exploration. One of the strengths of Mokahanga as a practice is its ability to harmonize with other artistic and academic endeavors, enriching one's life in many ways. On this episode of the Unfinished Print, I speak with William Matthew, a teacher and relief printmaker based in Pennsylvania. We discussed Bill's discovery of Mokahanga in the 1980s, and how his academic and artistic journey in printmaking evolved, leading him to rediscover Mokahanga later in life. Bill and I delve into his personal Mokahanga teachers, his work on the Pennsylvania Print Symposium in 2006, his printmaking philosophies, his time at the First International Mokahanga Conference in Awaji and Kyoto. And we also explore his own Mokahanga work, materials, making tools, and how he views Mokahanga through an academic lens. I hope you enjoy my interview with printmaker William Matthew, and I hope you enjoy this episode of the Unfinished Print. What was the first time you got involved in Mokahanga? Do you remember? Yeah, I first was introduced to it in graduate school. Back in, it would have been 1987, I think. I went to Indiana University in Bloomington, and Rudy Pazzotti had just retired, and Rudy went to Japan and studied with Adachi. I was taking a history of the Japanese print class, and as part of that, Rudy came back and talked to us printmakers about it, and then I made my first couple of Mokahanga prints. So I learned things from Rudy. Then it was right before I organized the Pennsylvania Print Symposium back in 2006. The way that came about, I teach in the state system, and we have 14 institutions, or we had 14 institutions, and now they just combined three of the institutions on the western of the state, three on the eastern, but they changed our schedules so that we all had the same spring break. And then after that happened, I thought it'd be really cool to have some sort of print symposium during spring break for students in the state. And then that summer of 2005, I was in Japan. My wife is an artist too. She's a metalsmith, Sue Mendelara, and we went to Japan to visit a friend of hers, someone she went to graduate school with, and he took us to a print shop. And we went to Kenji Takanaka's print shop, and he was showing us prints talking, and he said that the Japan Foundation had money for spreading Japanese culture. So I was thinking, well, maybe this is the print symposium. That was the summer of 2005 so then I wrote to the Japan Foundation and asked for funding to bring five artists from Japan. What we did is we brought Tula Moylin was there. So Tula came, and then Kenji, and then a master carver, and sort of his sort of master carver, or someone who is apprenticing as a master carver. And then Yuka Horata also was apprenticing at that time as a master printer with him, and they all came and then a translator, and the person we brought as a translator was Josuke Inway, who was a metalsmith. That's the person we were visiting in Japan. So he came as a translator. But I organized it then for spring of 2006. That was a short timeline. Get it together, because I wrote for the funding, got the funding, and then it was just a tough turnaround, because I had to then advertise and organize the whole symposium in just a couple months. And the language barrier was a little bit difficult. So setting up the details of how the conference, or the symposium would be, I had trouble getting in contact with them. So I laid out a plan for it. And then after I started to advertise, then they responded, and changed the plan, and also changed the funding required. Oh, really? A loop. Yeah, it was quite challenging. It was a two or three day workshop that was all day. And then we also had evening sessions for local teachers who came in. It was a very fun symposium. It was pretty loose, but then everybody made a mocha hanga print, and which was a very short period of time. And they gave printing demos, carving demos. People gave lectures, Evan summer, someone who works with Antonio here in the state who retired a couple years ago from quitstown. And then we talked about his work and a former colleague john lice I talked about his work and, and I think talked about egress press to other people that were there. But then one of the best things we had a whole bunch of students from the state. And we just said, Hey, who wants to do a talk. At lunch, people organized in and did a short talk about their work. So a bunch of these students who was the first time that they talked publicly about their work. That's cool. Yeah, it worked out really nicely. What's the timeline from the symposium to when you first started? Was it a few years getting into mocha hanga from that first trip to Japan? So my time is right. Well, you know, I made a few prints when I was in grad school, and that was back in the eighties. And then I had the symposium and I made a little print then and then I started doing mocha hanga. And that was 2006. 2007. I went to Japan. And I printed a great wave off kind of gawa, oak size. I printed an edition of 60 with Kenji, and learned a lot about printing them. You didn't make any prints from the eighties you just did a few and then you just left it. Or were you making prints sporadically? No, I really didn't make mocha hanga prints after the few small ones that I made. I think I made three small prints in the eighties. You're predominantly your medium. It tends to be more like other very American relief, like relief prints and different styles and intaleo. And so that's when your career is you're kind of setting that you're setting your career up in the eighties, right? Like your career as an artist and a teacher. Yeah, got out of grad school in '89. Moved to New York for a year and then moved to Miami of Ohio and taught there as a temp for a year. And then my wife got hired here in Edinburgh. And we were both supposed to teach in Ken, but then she got a full-time tenure track job. We were both going to be temps in Ken. So I taught at Ken for a year and then a couple years later I got hired at Edinburgh. So then I've been teaching since then and my work has been in italia and Western relief. So what was the biggest difference between Rudy and then Kenji? What was that initial difference? I guess Kenji really taught it as someone who does it all day every day. So the layout of all of all of your tools was really quite specific and the way you use them was very specific. So there's all kinds of subtlety that I learned from him that I didn't learn from Rudy. And I'm not sure if it was me missing it or really teaching in a different way. And I got much better tools than to much better carving tools and brushes. Because when I first started out I just made my own brushes. I got a shoe brush and chopped it and you're in grad school and you don't have a lot of money. I still use a shoe brush on my prints because it's black. I don't know what it is. It's such a big brush and I scorched it and all that stuff. I still have it. I use it for blacks because it's like, I don't know. I've got nice brushes but I don't want to use them for black. I don't know what it is. It's just a preference. But I love it because it's worse hair. Maybe not the best quality but it's something. I didn't realize that back in the golden age that they weren't using those brushes. But those came right at the end. The Dutch brought them just as they were maybe the downfall of the golden age was all those cheap new supplies that came, you know, they call it the golden age then. But I think they've still been making crazy wonderful prints ever since then. And they're still making them now. But yeah, I still have those brushes but the ones I made weren't that great. So the new ones that I got because it bought stuff when I went to Japan. And I even made my own bearings. Right on. Nice. It was pretty much a disaster. But it was still kind of fun to go through the process. I don't know if you've had any experience. You know, I have zero, zero desire. I love hearing other people do it. But I just have, I have, there's so many good bearings out there to buy. I'm like, I got a couple of bucks. I'll splurge a bit. Definitely. It was worth learning. Yeah, of course. What I got out of it was not a product that was worth using. Well, what did you make it of? The inside of it, I used fishing line and I, and I sort of wove the fishing line. And then I made that inside coil out of that. And then I, I used the actual. I can't remember the name of it, the disc, that black disc that it goes inside. And that you usually lacquer is related to. Poison sumac and. And I knew that going in. So I put on the respirator and I put on eye protection. And I still broke out horribly and I just just, my whole face. Every spot that wasn't covered, I had all kinds of. Just like getting poison ivy on my face. Oh my goodness. Yeah, it was, it was not fun. So you do need to be careful with that. If you're allergic to poison ivy at all. I had, I had no idea that the she. Yeah. Had that effect on people. Yeah. It's, it's really kind of dangerous. You know, you make that on a wooden form. And then you have to cut it off the wooden form. So it was dry at that point. And I cut it off the wooden form and I still put stuff on and protect myself. And I broke out again. I guess in Japan, I heard that they sometimes, if the year a woodworker who, and your, if your. Children were going to, you know, end up as woodworkers after that. That they would give them little bits of, you know, expose them to rishi lacquer has children. Of course. Yeah. I mean, you just impose him in 2006. You're essentially learning a lot from a, a mokahanga. Right? Oh, yeah. Essentially you've got subconscious. It almost feels like you set this up for yourself. How can I learn? You know, it was something I was interested in. And I did learn a lot because the way that things that are, at least the way I learned it from Rudy, you know, maybe I missed things, but. It was just quite different the way that Kenji did it. So then I learned from Kenji. And then. You know, I printed with him in 2007 and then I went to the first. International mokahanga. Conference that was in. Was it is in Kyoto? That was in 2011. So then I learned a lot there too, because I saw a bunch of demos and. And found that it was done. Slightly differently by a lot of different artists in Japan. The first conference was really, really wonderful. And I think it. I don't know, it seemed like it sort of ignited a community. From around the world, because there were people from. All countries all over the world. And. It was just a wonderful conference. Is it inspiring? Is it? Is it one of those cliche things that you didn't think that you'd be so inspired, but when you go there, you're just surrounded by like minded people and you can't help but be inspired? It was. It was very inspiring. And there was great exhibitions. The demos were wonderful. There was a. Kaiser sato did a demo where he was. Printing this contemporary work. He's printing so many layers and doing all kinds of subtlety. And it was like he was reproducing a painting. And then the carving demo was was also amazing. There was a his name was a Roshi Fujisawa. And he was a. Like this hot shot superstar carver in Japan. Because all of everybody was around watching it. He had this huge mallet and man, he just. He just went to town and it was so fun to see him carve a block so quickly. Because I, I just didn't imagine and he was, he was just carving out a simple shapes. Not a key block, but just seeing him go around with a knife and then come back with a huge gouge and a mallet and he was just putting this block away in no time. So it was nice to see that. Just to get a sense for how someone who really does it. When you go to something like that, are you a note taker? You write copious notes to you video. Do you take photos? What is your process? I took photos. I took videos. I took some notes. You know, I had a sketchbook. I think all of it helps. But in the end, my memory is the thing that I, I don't know. I think I probably should go back and look at notes. But just the experience of being there and seeing it. That resonates still when I think back about it. And it was nice to be in Japan again, just touring around, seeing different gardens and different sites. I showed something when I was there. I built a desk for standing and printing. Right. Because for me, sitting is just, I just can't do it. My body. It just doesn't work. So I built and showed a table for carving that they let me do that. It was quite fortunate. You know, did you build it there? No, no, I, I just took, I showed plans and I showed some shots, I think, of the table, the thing that I built. And then I shared the plans with anybody who wanted them. And I didn't imagine that somebody would build exactly what I built. But I thought there were some nice design elements in the table that I made. And I, in my studio, it's actually right to my right of me. Yeah, you know, I submitted thinking, well, nobody's going to want to see this. And I was very fortunate that they led me talk about that because then it was easier for me. It may have been part of a sabbatical. I was doing other things too, but it was at that same time and it was a nice and get to demo. But it was a kind of silly with me demoing and then these real masters down and the next room. Well, what inspired you to come up with that idea? I just wanted a way to stand. And I had already, when we had the prints symposium, I built traditional furniture. So I built a printing desk and a carving desk. And I just found that for me, they worked much better if I used them standing at a table. So then I built this desk where the parts would slide into the desk, sort of hide away. And then you could pull them out and put them on top of the desk and work. I still have it here and I still, I used it a ton when I was doing mocha hanga. The carving desk would just slide under on some rails underneath the table. So it was just convenient to take it out. Felt like whenever I printed, it was always printing and carving and printing and carving as I'm. Having things swell in the block and then trying to refine the block. So it's really convenient to have that carving desk right there. When you were making something that's standing, is it for doing everything standing, like carving and printing, or is it just for printing? How did you see it when you were making it? I carved standing a lot too. Yeah, I don't know. That felt pretty comfortable for me. But I still carved sitting down as well, but printing for me sitting on the floor just is not my body doesn't do that. So when I was printing that edition in Japan, it was an edition of 60 of Hokka size prints. And for me, the hardest part was just sitting for that long. I'd sit and I print for a while, and then I just have to stand up and walk around. Sure. And, and I know that the printer, Yuko Harada, who is still printing and I don't know if she's printing with at Kenshi studio still because that was a long time ago. But she was saying that how it took her years to get comfortable to sit in that way to print. And she crop in Japan, and she's a young, flexible woman. And I'm this old, stiff guy. And it's, it's like, it's never going to happen. For me, I was never going to sit in that position enough to get to a point where I could comfortably sit that way. Yeah. Why, why Hoksai? What made you choose that print? That's just what they offered. You know, they had those blocks, and it is such a wonderful print. And there were, I think there's eight colors. I think that they chose it because you got to do a whole bunch of different types of printing with the different layers that are in that one in that block. And it was just a bunch of printing, because it to print 60. And I did it one color a day and was there for, you know, printing for eight days. So, sorry, how did that work? They choose. So when you went there, they chose a print for you to make or to the print or this was, how did that work out? Yeah, that's, you know, I wanted to go and study and, and they, they had those blocks and that's what I printed when I was there. And when we had the, the print symposium that, you know, I was telling you that the language difficulty. When I set it up, I told people to, you know, come with a design and will carve you design and print your design. And then they, they had the plan that everybody would carve one of. They had the whole size simple compositions, and everybody would then print hope size composition. So it was just a very different mindset, where I'm thinking of, I'm bringing a bunch of artists, and, and then they're teaching the craft of carving and printing. And maybe theirs was more realistic in the timeframe we had that people wouldn't also all be doing different things. Kenji had a workshop in Hawaii, and he asked me to come along and help and be a translator after that. And at that we printed the students worked carved and printed the whole site image that we were going to do at Edinburgh. And that was interesting because then they all practiced carving certain things they all practice the same inking the same colors. So all of that made sense it just that that wasn't communicated to me and I'd already advertised what we were doing as something else. There's only a different mindset because they're seeing themselves, I think as craftsmen, even though Kenji and you could both make their own work. And, but it's like teaching the craft of it. And, you know, I've been teaching for 30 some years and I would never think of having every student in the class do the same project. Sure. You know, that's definitely perhaps a more Western concept. Yeah. Yeah, we're more about us more about the ego. When you were learning under Kenji, how did, because you were talking about different style or different ways of looking at things and how much of that has carried over to you. And when you're teaching, I know you still teach mokahanga. But I demonstrated in class, and then I occasionally I have a student who takes it on more where I'll demonstrate it in my print one class. But then it can't really work in a print one class. So then if a student wants to take that and study it in an intermediate class, then I've had some students do okay prints. It's just a lot to take on just in one semester to try to learn and to carve and to print. And there's so much subtlety to it. I think I was telling you that I had one student who just went to Japan to study then after. And yeah, I haven't spoken with him yet. He just was there in October. He had already graduated before he went. After 2011, where does your mokahanga take you, are you doing it anymore or are you slowing down or are you just focusing on your other printing. Then doing other printing made a big addition of one print then and then I just decided to go back to more traditional Western blocks. I like working large mokahanga doesn't really work large. I like the prints I make are maybe two by three feet and I like that scale. I like the power of the color in that scale like the way interact with the viewer. So it was kind of nice to go back to some larger things. But I do love the mokahanga too and the intimacy of a small print and the subtlety of the colors. There's just too many things to do as a printmaker and there's too many things that are beautiful and you could spend your whole career on any one of them. You're mokahanga work that I have seen on your website theme wise. I mean, you like figures. I mean, you like figures in a lot of your work. What is it about figures that appeal to you? Human figures. I just have always been drawn to the figure. I like the expressive quality. It's different than anything else because we all are figures. So, you know, you can put something into it and, and people understand the meaning of a line and a meaning of a mark that's being made to represent a figure and posture and an expression. And I started out in drawing and I drew like mad as a kid and then my undergraduate degree is in drawing. When I went to graduate school, then I wanted to go to a place where I could draw and print and paint. And then I found in the university, the printmaking program then was, they were someone who would let you do that. And a lot of places, it seemed like if you were applying to a painting program. Well, it's to say that you wanted to draw and print along with paint, at least back then. I don't think, you know, if you thought, what are you talking about that you would draw on paint and print. Even though so many great painters are printing and drawing, you know, but that Indiana would let me do that and then I became much more of a printmaker when I was in, was in grad school. That's what I've done with the time I've had is I just made prints since then. And mostly relief prints, but I'm also like in tall as well, but there's something about relief I something about the transformation of a line. A drawn line and drawn shapes and, and then when you're carving them out, it's drawing again but something about you carved that line that it gets new importance. It builds a stronger history, it seems like it gains in its credibility or something. I come to that line a bunch of times and I normally do transfers where I'll do a real developed drawing, and then I'll often do a acetone transfer of a print out onto a block. I love then interpreting that through carving, and giving myself freedom to then just play on top of this patterning of drawn lines and drawn marks, and some people will make a very precise drawing, and then they'll carve that precise drawing out. And I like to make a gestural full drawing, and it's pretty resolved, but then when I go to carve I just like having a lot of room to decide on the fly, how I'm going to develop the mood and emotion of the piece as I'm also digging into the values and the shapes that I'm making. I love to draw too so you know just to draw is so wonderful but there's something about drawing and then drawing it again with a carving tool that it slowly turns into something that seems more important or valid or something. I've done it a few times by the time you're done. But the drawing never ends up the exact, never becomes a photograph of that right it just becomes something really different so if you're just cutting away, they'd say it drives great but now it has to go through all these other processes. And then it becomes the final, even the printing will change that drawing in a lot of ways the color is special I find. Yeah, definitely. It's a long, the long process sometimes is frustrating, but it is a wonderful thing when in the end you get done with all those processes all those steps. And it's kind of wild to look back at it and to think about what you started with and what you end up with. I don't really like to make work that I really like. I think some people are trying to make a lot of work and and pump it out. And I don't really want to make something if I don't love it. And if I, if I do make something and I don't love it. It truly bothers me, you know, like that I, I just want seeing everything I make to seem very resolved and done. I don't know. You will know if it's resolved and done but how would you the audience know it's resolved and done. Well, I guess, for me, every part of the piece should be considered, and that I'm always telling my students that there shouldn't be any part that's the rest of the piece. And some people's work, when you see it, it seems like they had a part that they were really interested in, and then they're trying to figure out how to fill the rest. I think every shape is an opportunity. And when you're making a print, each shape can get such wonderful character. And to me when everything just seems resolved when I'm done and it shouldn't be any sore thumbs there shouldn't be any awkward spots. It should just look right to you. It should be, you know, it's like, I mean, this is not, I'm not great analogies, but I like to use them. You know, it's like wallpaper, you know, it's got to be, it can't have any bulges and weird. It's going to be there. You can't even tell it's wallpaper. Is that kind of what it would it's like, like you just, regardless, subjective, I know, but I think every part of the piece should feel resolved and right and balanced and so that the amount of tension between every object and every shape. I like thinking about that there's a whole bunch of minor compositions within this major composition and so every similar element in the piece should then seem resolved within all the other similar elements in the piece and is that pre planned. No, you know, kind of, I think I go in with a strong plan, but on the fly things are changing and then you keep on changing and building and altering until everything seems resolved. And, you know, the print I'm working in right now, I think it gave myself too many options. So on every step, I have so many options that I'm having a hard time resolving it because I have too many options. So I think it would have been better to limit myself. And I think when my next few prints I'm going to have maybe just two blocks and have them not a reduction. And I think I need something like that where I can be forced to make decisions and be done. Do you like doing reduction. I never did reduction until a few years ago. I really love Karen Kunz's work, not Karen, actually, through mocha hanga. Oh yeah. And I really liked her work and I tell students that they should look at her work. And then I invited her to come I'm the director of something called egress press and research, which is a fine art publishing component of our print program at Penn West Edinburgh. And formerly Edinburgh University. And we had a come as a visiting artist. And then after that, I decided maybe I'd play a little bit with a reduction relief. I'm planning to retire in a little over two years. And then maybe I'll have more time to go back and play with some mocha hanga or, because I stopped doing mocha hanga because it was so time consuming. Just the time and the way I was carving the blocks was really time consuming with a fine outlines kind of with a little bit like the language of a traditional kioi print. Even though mine don't look like that it's still with a outline and a key block and just so time consuming the carving. One print you have that I really like mocha hanga is here no evil. Uh huh. Yeah. Like here's your mocha hanga come with the same planning as your leto or your other relief prints is what is is there a different process with that. Well, with that print. That one came out of. I don't know if you noticed that the little Roman collar on the figure. Oh yeah. Yeah, there it is. Now I see it. Yeah, and a lot of people don't see it and I don't know people to see it, but it was. That was inspired by problems with the Catholic Church and I grew up Catholic and, and the priests in the idea that. There's a lot of horrible priests who did horrible things. And then there's still all of these really good men who've given their lives to be priests where these really wonderful people who are then also stained by that. So that piece then was playing with that idea and then the play is. You know, instead of here, you know, with our ears it's here no evil with a GRE. And, and it's part of it. I'm saying that, you know, with many of them, there is no evil and then it's also as a statement like saying that there shouldn't be evil, but so then that piece is a, you know, a drawing based on that and. Or should have inspired by that and why he's laying in a bed I don't know he's supposed to be in a moment of like, I don't know, reflection or something. This starts with a pretty resolve drawing. That one I actually did the whole thing with a traditional approach where I was drawing it on. This paper and then gluing the rice paper paper onto the block. And then I printed the key block and glued that onto the other blocks for the color blocks, because they just wanted to do the whole process the way that they would do it, with the golden age and, yeah, and then just playing with the colors it changes so much with the colors when you're working on it. And the colors were based are inspired by a Japanese print. Oh, we're there. Yeah, there's just the palette was. I think it's tomorrow with a woman with a blowing into a glass. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's very famous. Yeah, very well known, but that I really love the color in that one. And I think there's actually, it was a lot of years ago but I think there's actually some white printed in that one. Yeah, looking at it now. Yeah, my cutting to. Yeah, yeah, at least the one I'm looking at. Yeah, so the colors then were inspired by that print. I made a print about my daughter big relief print about my daughter where some of the patterning that are around that is around the figure. I was sort of playing with the idea of the pattern sort of, I don't know if you say attacking but threatening the figure and this a little bit of that play with in this print to do you, do you have a, do you, is there a list of topics and ideas that you tend to gravitate to. And then my work I I'm often trying to capture a life situation with something that is really is a not really a portrait but I use the figure trying to capture a life situation and, and then just the gesture is important to me. I'm not sure the figure in trying to create the space around the figure that then also supports the gesture in the mood and the sort of life situation of that figure that I'm trying to reflect on and hopefully people would relate to a life situation. I'm guarding the cheese is that from a life situation. That was guarding the cheese was part of a portfolio that I organized that was about the George Bush presidency. Okay. Oh, I see it. Yeah. Yeah, the history of the George Bush presidency and well at the time, there was, you know, Bush was saying that history would be his judge. So I thought it would be good to get a bunch of artists to start writing that history. So then I asked a whole bunch of print makers to make a print that was inspired by a specific article or event during his presidency. Each person chose, you know, a specific story or event, and then made a piece about it. And that one, that piece is about when Bush was setting up his energy policy. The way he did that is he brought in CEOs from different energy companies to write his policy on energy. So that's what the guarding the cheese there is about that, you know, you're bringing in rats to watch the cheese. And all those, those, all of the rats that are around there are actual people who are then in hearings about that. So those are the CEOs. Those are like caricatures of the CEOs. And, and then Bush is sitting on Cheney's lap. So looks like it's something could have been in punch magazine or something. Yeah, I had fun with that. When I was very young, when I was in high school, I did some political cartoons for the local newspaper. Oh, cool. It was kind of fun to go back and do that sort of again. Do you like my putting politics into your prints? I have not done that much. You know, it's tempting. And there's been a lot of great printmakers who have done that. But I think I'd rather have my work be about life and more wonderful things. And I think anything that I could do to not think about politics now is probably a better thing. Yeah, probably. I'm, yeah, it's kind of, I don't know. It's kind of scary times right now with it. I don't want to stain my joy of art making. Yeah, I understand that definitely. But we got a, there were a bunch of great prints and printmakers who were in that. And Jenny Schmidt made a really wonderful print. Tell me about tradition. You talked about tradition. And with mocha hunger, there's obviously, as you know, steep in tradition. You've alluded to it several times. Did that, where you learned that with Kenji, did you learn a lot about tradition studying under him? I guess it was, did that in 2007 and 11. Did that, did you continue that? Do you feel you continue that? Are you adding a difference in on tradition? And if so, I mean, how do you look at tradition? Well, I think that when they were making their prints, it was a commercial process. I think it was very efficient, at least during the golden age. And then the way that Kenji was teaching me is you put the race pace down with this hand and you put the ink on with this hand. And then you start this way and you rub that way and you sit a certain way and you have the desk that's tilted a certain way. And all of those things were developed over years. So I think they developed at what was thought it was the best way. And why not at least play with that way first. And then if you go a different way, go a different way. But I do think that it's worthwhile to appreciate what they've developed and take as much from it as you can. But then I, you know, whatever works for any artist is the way they should do it. I don't think there's anything wrong with doing things in completely untraditional ways. But why not try and learn as much as you can about a traditional approach that has so much, like he said, history, tradition. With your mokahanga. Was there any crossover regarding your other printing methods with your mokahanga? Because you do, when you're doing so many different things, I feel like it's impossible that they don't bleed in a bit together. Yeah. And I think that the color is quite different with oil base. But the way I use the oil base, it's not as different as some people because I tend to print with pretty transparent colors. And do stacking where you're seeing the colors through the color. This color sense that you have in a mokahanga print is not real foreign to the color sense that I like with oil base printing to Andy Farkas. He learned first mokahanga at our prints symposium in 2006. And now Andy Farkas then switched over to doing primarily mokahanga prints since since then. He's someone who I don't think he's working in a real traditional way. But man, he is making crazy wonderful mokahanga prints. Yeah, I think working the way that works for you is the way to work. Yeah, I agree. We just had him as a visiting artist here, just this fall. And it was fun to have Andy talk with students about his creative process, because he's really, it's wonderful in the way he keeps every door open the whole time he's working. He doesn't do transfers onto a block. He'll do drawings and then he'll redraw it on the block. And each time he feels like each time you redraws it has more life than the time it had before. And then he does some wonderful things with carving. He was doing wood engraving before that, before he came to that symposium and his, his wife Catherine McGinn was studying printmaking here, getting her MFA. And Andy came to Edinburgh, so the two of them lived here for three years and, and when Andy was here he was doing wood engraving, and he had a letter press that he loaned to our studio when he was here. So then he was here working on that all the time. But then he's SWAT over to Mokahanga, partly because he was having some difficulties with physically from doing such intense wood engraving. Sure, that's demanding. Yeah, and he was doing it in a very demanding way because he, a lot of wood engraving are very dark with a limited amount carved out sort of. And he was carving images that were really more like a mokahanga with, where he carving only most of the block out of end grain. Wow. Yeah, they're wonderful prints. And he was also doing a lot of, he writes books too. So he had wood engraving books and then also now he has these mokahanga books that are just really wonderful. So what kind of registration we're using for mokahanga do you still use Kento marks? Oh, okay. I was always using Kento marks when I was doing the mokahanga. And, yeah, I, I don't know that I've ever done one where I didn't have the block, the Kento marks carved into the block. I don't know, maybe those first ones I did I'm not sure I think I did though. And it's just not a reason to go away from it, even though it's kind of annoying sometimes to have the space sometimes. It's just hard to keep it clean and have a nice border. At least I have trouble with that when I'm doing the mokahanga. And then I don't use Kento marks when I do my other ones, then I have a whole different approach to registration. I've mostly been using pin registration lately. Do you ever think of crossing over and trying different things? I know some people, I know some mokahanga artists use pin registration as well. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's good. They showed it. The one person showed it to me and I was like, oh, this is very cool. Yeah, it would make sense. The pin registration works wonderfully. Yeah. I like the mokahanga. I like, you know, I don't tell them. Yeah. Because even though my students are doing Western printmaking, I'm still telling them how to set down their paper as if they're doing a mokahanga friend. Well, I mean, you love it so. So I mean, it's obviously that somehow connects with you. Yeah. Yeah. And. It is a wonderful way to work. And I do like with mokahanga. It's so nice. I love using my press, but I really love not using the press when you're printing and that it is something really nice about the feeling when you're. You know, printing mokahanga very intimate. Yeah. Yeah. Get right close to it. You know, yeah, I think the whole, the whole process of carving wood carving. I tell people that it's kind of like art making mixed with whittling. You know, there's just something about being in what being one with the wood and the grain and the traction of it and just the way you carve and. Very fulfilling way to make work. It's just. I had a different pace than I think our current culture. Well, it definitely does that. It focuses you definitely. Yeah. As a curiosity, what is the future of art students these days as a teacher? What are you seeing out there? Well, you know, it is kind of scary that it seems like universities are heading towards job training, you know, thinking of with university as a place where you're being taught to go into a specific field, which is just seems completely silly to me because what we know now is that people change what they do throughout their lives. And that's so common. So to teach, we really should be trying to teach people to be great creative problem solvers. And art does that. Art teaches people to think for themselves to look at very complex things that are layered. And, you know, you have to think functionally, and you have to also learn to work in a group. That we have learning animation and filmmaking, you know, they're always working in teams and they're, I think, very prepared to do a whole bunch of things in life. And people think tech is like the way to go. But now all these people are losing their tech jobs and you think that that was so the way to go. And I don't know. I think if it'd be nice if people would go back to the idea of being educated in a more broad, you know, more broadly educated and preparing yourself for anything in life instead of the idea that it's better to prepare yourself for one thing in life. Yeah, I think it's definitely a braver choice to go into art. Yeah, it just is. I mean, you gotta have, you gotta be brave. You gotta just really want it at any age, really. You have to accept that you will design your own life. Yeah, and that, and I think that that's more common now though, especially going to COVID and the whole idea of employment has changed and I think many more people are thinking about designing their life and trying to think about what they want to get out of life. And what they will and won't do and so hopefully something good comes out of COVID and maybe people will have more interesting lives I hope. I don't know. Yeah, I hope so. Yeah. When you're teaching Morgana, what do you like the most when you're teaching it? Well, I, you know, I demonstrate it, but I don't have that many students who are doing it. And even the students who have done it, they're in a stacked class. So everybody else in the class, there's one student maybe who's doing mocha hanga and then, you know, five other students who are doing litho and five other students who are doing screen printing. And I teach them but it's not like I get, like I'm teaching a whole mocha hanga class. And that would be wonderful. That would be a lot of fun but it's so specific. And then whether to teach a whole class mocha hanga, I feel like I wanted to teach a student who's drawn to it. But then I don't know if I should be teaching a whole class. Okay, we're going to do mocha hanga. It would be fun to do that for a print one class. You know, all we're going to learn this semester is mocha hanga. I think you have a lot of converts to the cause. Yeah, definitely could. And there would be a lot to be learned from that. And especially for you to teach it traditional and the idea that of building a skill. And when they're learning onus and apprentice and they're carving for five years. But before they get to carve a hand or whatever in one. It's a very different sense. When I went there for the, when we first had our, you know, around 2006 when we had this symposium and we're learning. Ken she did have someone who is learning to carve and was an apprentice carver. And I think she gave up on it. But I don't know if that's still a thing in Japan. I don't know if it is. Yeah. Because that is such a different thing. And we, I don't know. It seems like there's a little bit more interest in apprenticeships in the trades again right now, or people are trying to make that and I think that is a. It's a wonderful thing. It's a good thing. And I hope that comes back. Yeah, I should never be lost. I mean, there's something to be said about learning something for years and. I don't know getting good at it and passing that on that passing on that tradition. Yeah, it's valid. Yeah. Yeah, and I hope that people come to appreciate how wonderful handmade things are. It seems like a whole bunch of Americans don't have a whole lot of appreciation for how wonderful it is to have something that's handmade. And I feel like the more the world goes digital, the more people should want that and appreciate and need that. That if you're going to sit at a computer all day, sure would be nice to at least have a handmade cup in your hands instead of. You threw the difference immediately. Yeah, and I don't know. I feel like we as artists should be trying to convert everybody all the time so that they have richer lives and that we also have richer lives because then they'll buy our work. Speaking of which do you does that is that a big deal to you selling work. I have never made an effort to try to sell work was just because I've never been good at being a professor and then also being a full time artist. I feel like each one is a full time job and I've always felt like if I have a gallery that I should be committed to the gallery. And if that gallery does really well at selling my work and comes back to me and says, okay, we need five more additions. You know, I'd be like, oh, I can't do that. Not if I'm a professor. The place I teach is a teaching institution, you know you have the division one schools that are research institutions, and they do less teaching, and they're given more time to do their work and given more resources. And so being at a teaching institution, teaching is always supposed to come first, and still my colleagues are all making work and they're all active artists. But I think it is a little bit different than if you were at big 10 school. The paper used for mochanga was all handmade paper. Yeah. I got some good paper when I was over there it she's then, you know, some it she's in Cozo. And it was funny that when I went there to print my print, because I auditioned the second time I went back to work with Kenji. I auditioned here no evil. So I went that and I printed that print when I was there. And I brought some paper that I bought through a supplier here in the States, that it was Japanese it she's in Cozo. And I took it along to print on, and they are looking at it and they're holding it up in the green. Whoa, look at all of the stuff in here. And it seemed like for them it was very obvious that this was not the best paper, and it made me wonder if maybe in Japan when they don't get good paper they ship it to the United States. To me I looked at the I thought there was beautiful wonderful paper, and you know I still feel that way. And all of them were looking at it and they were like, wow, you know this is not good like they're seeing all kinds of flex in the paper, different things that shouldn't be in there. So I don't know if it was like the end of the day, what's left in the, I don't know why you always hear about like different batches being done different, you know, the timing it's almost becomes like wine. I mean you hear the like what year it was made, who made it, what was the month, etc, things like that I find that changes the paper. It makes perfect sense that when it comes to the United States and we see it and go wow that's beautiful Japan the same piece of paper they're looking at and saying, ah, that's not very good. Yeah, I also have used some paper from the Morgan Conservatory of printmaking in Cleveland, the paper I used for them. I used for intaglio printing actually, but they're making some Thai coso, and they're growing it. I don't know if you've heard of them. I've heard of them. Yeah. They're growing, growing it in the backyard of behind this factory that's turned into the papermaking studio. And then they, you can go and help them harvest and beat it into pulp and, and they're making paper out of it. And when I, I use their paper for intaglio and at the time I had an Italian print that was really difficult to print that had really deeply etched lines. And the only paper I could find that would really work well was their handmade coso, Thai coso. What was so good about it? Well, it just needed to be soft and strong to get pushed down deep enough into the lines to pull out and get a really rich black line, where some other the other papers I was trying weren't getting rich thick black lines. It just wouldn't, I don't know if it wouldn't get stretched down into that into the line deep enough to pull the ink back out. Finally, my last question is, what, why is Mocha Honga important? Just generally to anything that comes to mind. Why is Mocha Honga important to you think? I think every form of print is part of a history of making and the sharing of ideas. So many ideas, they only exist because printmaking existed to make them happen. So many things that have been shared. And I think it's important to keep that history that we shouldn't forget that. And the more people that make prints, even if they're just stopping in a print studio and they make a couple of prints in their life. It's nice to be in touch with where what print has been in the past and that there's so much so much richer than just pushing your finger on the computer and spitting something out, where, and for working on wood. What is life and, and we should keep our close ties to materials and as artists, those things have meaning and I think they should have meaning for everybody. For me, it's, I can't imagine not having art and prints in my life, joy that you have and the closeness and just seems like you're more alive or in touch with, with life and being part of this history of human life. So I, I think that it should become more important because as things go digital, I just think people need this more in their lives. The idea that you would have a group of prints just in the box in a table and take them out and show them to people and I'd like more people to, to get into that. That's what I feel like with the print one students that I have now that these students that maybe they'll only take one print class. But then for the rest of their life they're going to love friends. And when they see it print, they're going to understand and appreciate all the work that it went into making it. And the whole idea of having a limited edition print and I just feel like these students are going to have friends in their lives forever. And they always, I always encourage them to swap prints with each other. And it's such a wonderful thing to remember somebody else with a piece of their artwork. And it's so easy to do that with prints when you have additions. I think when you come back to mocha hanga when you don't need a press and anybody can do it in any space. You don't need ventilation using just really simple materials, even though we refine them and get them, you know, they're still kind of simple. And that that's something very wonderful. So I, I feel like like I said that I'm planning to retire soon. And, and then I like the idea that seems even more desirable is working on something that you can take time and just appreciate the making. And I also, now that I will be retired from teaching that I'm excited to try to sell my work because now then I can commit to doing something working with a gallery or where I can put in tons of hours, making art, and not have to put it second to teaching. So I'm quite excited about the next few years and art making and I'm sure you have plans, certain ideas that are germinating. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, and I definitely would like to get back into mocha hanga and make some, make some prints, because mocha hanga'd be a nice way to share prints too. And I think it's easy to print them pretty quickly when you've got the blocks made. And it would be fun just to make prints and just give them a few just just hand them out. Just hoping to plant seeds with people about, Hey, here's a print and isn't it wonderful and, and once you like to have more of these in your life. You get into business card. Yeah. Thank you, Bill. Well, thank you. I am really honored that you took the time to talk with me about mocha hanga a little bit. Absolutely. My pleasure. My finished print is a popular reproduction written, produced and edited by Andres Edirasne. If you're able to please support the podcast by giving her view and reading. You can also support the unfinished print and my own mocha hanga through my Instagram page at Andres Edirasne prints. Any questions or concerns, you can reach me through email at the unfinished print at gmail.com. Also, I'd like to thank all of my guests past and present for taking the time for their busy lives to have a conversation about mocha hanga. Without you, there wouldn't be the unfinished print. So thank you. [MUSIC] [BLANK_AUDIO]
