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The Unfinished Print : A Mokuhanga Podcast

Jacqueline Gribbin : Printmaker - Adaptation

Duration:
1h 27m
Broadcast on:
28 Jun 2024
Audio Format:
mp3

Mokuhanga has the ability to take the artist or craftsperson anywhere they would like to be. From the subject matter in their studio to physical movement around the world, teaching, exploring, and discovering. Wonder and beauty is what makes mokuhanga so special.   In this episode of The Unfinished Print, I speak with printmaker Jacqueline Gribbin, who has spent years honing her craft in mokuhanga and other printmaking techniques across Japan, Southeast Asia, and Australia. We discuss her deep connection with Indigenous communities, collaborating with the late Ralph Kiggell, and exploring the nuances of water-based and oil-based mokuhanga. Jaqueline explains her experiences traveling to isolated communities, conducting workshops, and sharing her passion for printmaking. We'll explore her teaching methods, the importance of community in her work, and how she balances creating and selling her prints.  

Please follow The Unfinished Print and my own mokuhanga work on Instagram @andrezadoroznyprints or email me at theunfinishedprint@gmail.com 

Notes: may contain a hyperlink. Simply click on the highlighted word or phrase.

Artists works follow after the note if available. Pieces are mokuhanga unless otherwise noted. Dimensions are given if known. Print publishers are given if known.

Jacqueline Gribbin - website 

Shifting Tides (2022)

Nagasawa Art Park (MI Lab) Awaji City - Nagasawa Art Park was an artist-in-residence program located in Awaji City, Hyōgo Prefecture, Japan. It was open for 12 years before evolving into MI Lab in 2012. More info, here.    Keiko Kadota (1942-2017) - was the director of Nagasawa Art Park at Awaji City from 1997-2011, and then of MI Lab at Lake Kawaguchi from 2011 until her passing.   Toru Ueba - was a print instructor at Nagasawa Art Park, and was one of Yoonmi's instructors in 2004.   Ralph Kiggell (1960-2022) -  was one of the most important mokuhanga practitioners. Originally from England, Ralph lived and worked in Thailand. Ralph pushed the boundaries of mokuhanga with extremely large pieces, jigsaw carving, and by using fantastic colour. He also worked with the International Mokuhanga Conference to promote mokuhanga around the world. He will be greatly missed. Ralph's work can be found, here. His obituary in The Guardian can be found, here. His interview with The Unfinished Print can be found, here.     Orange Flower On Blue    Hiroki Satake - is a mokuhanga printmaker, and instructor based in Japan. He has taught at MI Lab, as well as given demonstrations regarding tool sharpening, around the world. Instagram   赤絵(アンドレ・マルティ「狼よ!」より) (2022) 34.7cm×28.4cm   registration - there are several registration methods in mokuhanga. The traditional method is called the kentō registration, where you carve two notches, straight another an "L." There is also a "floating kentō," which is where the notches are cut in a piece of "L" shaped wood and not on the wood where you are cutting your image, hence "floating." Lastly, there are removable "pins," such as ones made by Ternes Burton.    bokashi - is a mokuhanga technique, where the pigment fades from a heavy colour to a softer, broad colour. Made famous by prints designed by Hokusai and Hiroshige, this technique is, for me, the most popular technique utilized by  mokuhanga printmakers. There are various types: Ichimoji-bokashi or straight line graduation, used in the above mentioned Hiroshige and Hokusai prints. Ichimoji-mura-bokashi or straight line gradation with uneven edge. Ō-bokashi or wide gradation, Ate-nashi-bokashi or gradation without definition. Futa-iro-bokashi or two tone gradation, and ita-bokashi or softer-edge gradation, where the block is cut in a specific way to achieve this style of gradation. All of these styles of bokashi technique take practice and skill but are very much doable. Below is a fine example of bokashi by Paul Binnie:     The Torii Gate at Miyajima (2009) 37.5 x 26cm

sizing paper - at times mokuhanga printmakers will size their paper. Size is made from water, animal glue (rabbit, horse), and alum. What the size does is keep the pigments the artist uses from “bleeding” into the outer edges of the paper. There are many recipes of size, here is one that artist Walter J. Phillips used.

  intaglio printing - is a printing method, also called etching, using metal plates such as zinc, and copper, creating “recessed” areas which are printed with ink on the surface of these "recesses.” More info, here. The MET has info, here.     serigraphy - is another word for the art of silk screen printing. Silk screen printing can be in on various materials, silk, canvas, paper.    lithography: A printing process where images are transferred onto a surface using a flat plate or stone.   Yoshitaka Amano (b. 1952) - is a character designer for the Final Fantasy video game series. He uses ukiyo-e and Japanese woodblock prints as insirpation for some of his work.   

Takashi Murakami (b. 1962) is a contemporary artist best known for his fine art works and contributions to the commercial market. His works are heavily influenced by manga and anime, characterized by their bright colors and distinctive style.

Multicolour Superflat Flowers - archival pigment print, silkscreen, 45 cm x 17.7cm

  Margaret Thatcher 1925-2013) -  was the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom from 1979 to 1990. She was the first woman to hold the office and remains one of the most influential figures in British political history. Leading the Conservative Party, Thatcher implemented a series of economic policies known as "Thatcherism," which emphasized deregulation, privatization of state-owned industries, and reducing the power and influence of trade unions. Her tenure was marked by significant economic transformation, as well as controversial measures that sparked widespread debate and protest.    Tamarind Institute - was originally founded in Los Angeles in 1960 by June Wayne, and is a world renowned center for fine art lithography. Established to revive and sustain the art of lithography, which was in decline in the United States, Tamarind quickly became a leader in the education and promotion of lithographic techniques. In 1970, the institute moved to the University of New Mexico in Albuquerque, where it continues to thrive as a key institution in the printmaking world. Dedicated to advancing the lithographic arts through rigorous education, collaborative projects, and the production of high-quality prints, the Tamarind Institute's influence extends globally, contributing significantly to the development and appreciation of lithography as a vibrant art form. More info, here.    STPI Creative Workshop & Gallery - which stands for Singapore Thailand Print Institute is an educational gallery and workshop, based in Singapore. More info, here.    International Mokuhanga Conference, 2011 - was the first international conference on mokuhanga which was separated in two parts, Kyoto and the Awaji Islands in Japan.    MI Lab - is a mokuhanga artists residency located in Kawaguchi-ko, near Mount Fuji. More info can be found, here.    Hiroki Morinoue - is a mokuhanga printmaker and artist living in Holualoa, Big Island, Hawai’i. He is a co-founding member of the Holualoa Foundation For Arts & Culture, the establishment of the Donkey Mill Art Center and Studio 7 Fine Arts. Hiroki's interview with The Unfinished Print can be found, here.    Incoming Tide 30.5 x 30.5cm   Keiko Hara - is an artist and Professor of Art Emerita at Whitman College in Walla Walla, Washington. She is a painter, and printmaker in various relief mediums, such as mokuhanga. Keiko also leads the Mokuhanga Project Space based in Walla Walla, Washington. More info on Keiko's work can be found, here. More info regarding the Mokuhanga Project Space, here.   Verse Space M-1, lithography and stencil, 55.8 cm x 76.2 cm   Yamanashi Prefecture - (山梨県, Yamanashi-ken) is located in the Chūbu region of Honshu, Japan, and borders Saitama Prefecture to the northeast, Nagano Prefecture to the northwest, Shizuoka Prefecture to the southwest, Kanagawa Prefecture to the southeast, and Tokyo to the east. The capital and largest city is Kōfu. Yamanashi is one of only eight landlocked prefectures in Japan, with most of the population residing in the central Kōfu Basin, surrounded by the Akaishi Mountains. 27% of its land area is designated as Natural Parks, and it is home to many of Japan's highest mountains, including Mount Fuji, the country's tallest peak and a significant cultural icon, which is partially located on the border with Shizuoka Prefecture.   Tiwi Islands - which means "two islands," are part of the Northern Territory, Australia, located 80 km (50 mi) north of Darwin. They comprise Melville Island, Bathurst Island, and nine smaller uninhabited islands, with a combined area of 8,320 square kilometers (3,212 sq mi). The islands have been inhabited by the Tiwi, an Aboriginal Australian people, since before European settlement, with a population of 2,348 recorded in the 2021 census. The Tiwi Land Council, one of four land councils in the Northern Territory, serves as a representative body with statutory authority under the Aboriginal Land Rights (Northern Territory) Act 1976 and holds responsibilities under the Native Title Act 1993 and the Pastoral Land Act 1992.   Charles Darwin University - was established in 2003 in the Northern Territory of Australia, and resulted from the merger of Northern Territory University, Centralian College, and the Menzies School of Health Research. Named after naturalist Charles Darwin, CDU focuses on research and education tailored to the unique challenges of the region, with strong emphasis on Indigenous education and partnerships. The university offers a broad range of programs across disciplines like health, education, engineering, business, and environmental science, and is recognized for its research in desert knowledge, Indigenous systems, tropical health, and sustainable development. With campuses in Darwin, Alice Springs, Katherine, and Nhulunbuy, CDU plays a crucial role in the educational, economic, and social development of the Northern Territory. The More Than Human World: North Australian Ecologies was the exhibit which Jacqueline speaks on in her episode. The exhibit catalogue can be found, here.    Balgo - also known as Wirrimanu, is a remote Aboriginal community in the Kimberley region of Western Australia. Home to the Kukatja people and other desert groups like the Ngarti and Warlpiri, Balgo is renowned for its vibrant art scene, particularly through the Warlayirti Artists art center, which produces art reflecting the rich cultural heritage of the local people. The community, accessible mainly via local roads and air, provides essential services such as a health clinic, school and plays a vital role in preserving and promoting Indigenous culture and traditions. A description of Wirrimaru can be found, here via Deutscher and Hackett.    Printmaking Today - is a magazine published by Cello Press in England, and is published quarterly. The magazine focuses on printmaking themes and artists. More info, here.   Arnhem Land - is located in the northeastern Northern Territory of Australia, and is a vast and culturally rich region covering approximately 97,000 square kilometers. Bordered by the Arafura Sea, the Gulf of Carpentaria, and Kakadu National Park, it is one of the largest Aboriginal reserves in Australia, home to around 16,000 Indigenous people, primarily the Yolngu. Known for its stunning natural landscapes, including rugged coastlines, rainforests, and wetlands, Arnhem Land is also a cultural treasure, famous for Indigenous art, music, and traditions. Access is restricted to protect its heritage, and the region plays a crucial role in Indigenous land rights movements and the preservation of Aboriginal culture.   Foundry Vineyards - based in Walla Walla, Washington is a vineyard and art space. It has been hosting artists from all types of media such as painting and printmaking since 2010. It has exhibited The Mokuhanga Project Space, printmaker Mike Lyon,  and the International Mokuhanga Print Exhibit. More info about this space and the good it does for the art community at large can be found, here.    Ozu Washi - is a paper store located in the Nihonbashi district of Tokyo. websiteInstagram   Wood Like Matsumura - is an online and brick and mortar store, for woodblock printmaking, located in Nerima City, Tōkyō.   uwa senka long - is a Thai kozo machine made paper which can be used for mokuhanga.    The Japanese Paper Place- is a Toronto based Japanese paper store servicing the Mokuhanga community for many years.  Interview with the Nancy Jacobi of the JPP can be found, here.   gouache: is a water-based paint known for its opaque and vibrant colours. Made from pigment, water, and gum arabic as a binder, it offers artists versatility in creating both translucent washes and opaque layers. Gouache can be reactivated with water and comes in a range of colors, making it a popular choice for various painting techniques.   The Adelaide River - is a significant waterway in the Northern Territory of Australia, extending approximately 180 km from its source in the Litchfield National Park to its mouth at the Timor Sea. The river flows through  lush wetlands, dense mangroves, and open floodplains, providing a rich habitat for diverse wildlife. It is particularly renowned for its large population of saltwater crocodiles.    © Popular Wheat Productions

opening and closing credit - Stardust by Lester Young, Oscar Peterson Trio. (1956) © UMG Recordings

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Popular wheat. Popular wheat. This is The Unfinished Print. I'm Andruzadirozny. Mochahanga has the ability to take the artist or crafts person anywhere they would like to be, from the subject matter in their studio to physical movement around the world, teaching, exploring, and discovering. Wondering beauty is what makes Mochahanga so special. In this episode of The Unfinished Print, I speak with printmaker Jacqueline Riven, who has spent years honing her craft in Mochahanga and other printmaking techniques across Japan, Southeast Asia, and Australia. We discuss her deep connection with indigenous communities, collaborating with the late Ralph Kijo and exploring the nuances of water-based and oil-based Mochahanga. Jacqueline explains her experiences traveling to isolated communities, conducting workshops, and sharing her passion for printmaking. We'll explore her teaching methods, the importance of community in her work, and how she balances creating and selling her prints. I hope you enjoy my interview with printmaker Jacqueline Riven, and I hope you enjoy this episode of The Unfinished Print. While I'd originally gone out to Japan, I was teaching English for quite a few years, and at the weekends I would hang out, I guess, hang out is the right word, at a printmaking workshop in Tokyo, and that's eventually where I did quite a long apprenticeship, I guess you would call it, and then became a full-time printer. So I became part-time printer, part-time teaching English, and then eventually full-time printer at the workshop. That workshop was originally a lithography workshop, and then it became etching as well, and screen printing. We did a little bit of woodblock, but after a while I felt like I really, you know, I'm in Japan, I want to learn a bit more about Mochahanga, about Japanese woodblock. And there wasn't really much of an opportunity at the workshop where I was working. It didn't seem to be that much interest in kind of the networks that I had. So I can't remember now, but somehow I found out about Keiko Kedota, who was running the Nagasawa Residences. So I went to meet her in Tokyo and said I was just interested in learning more about Mochahanga. And she said, well, we're just heading down to Nagasawa soon. We've chosen our artists for this year's program, but why don't you come down and do some interpretation? Because by that time I was speaking Japanese. So that was really, I guess, a first in-depth introduction. I was able to go down there for, I don't know how long, maybe a few days or a week and help with the interpretation. Yeah, and just had a wonderful time learning a little bit there over that short period. They had Weber Sensei, who was giving the instruction for the artists in residence. Really, really lovely teacher. Yeah, very generous with his time, very approachable. So I guess that was my first introduction to that. And then I came back to Tokyo, carried on working in the printmaking workshop. And then I made contact with Hiraki Satake, who was working at that time in Mochahanga. He was actually working out of his house, I think, not far from where I lived and worked in West Tokyo. And he was working with someone else. He had a very long-term project working on temple doors. So creating Mochahanga for temples. So there were the huge wood blocks in his house that they would carve away at the whole day. And in between that, he would let me go up and I had a little space in there where I'd come in with my wood blocks and I'd practice printing. And he would come over and help me. And just basically gives me some tips, showed me how to do the brushes on the shark skin, preparing the brushes like that, and various other things. And then again, I just went away to my own apartment and just started practicing, basically. So that was my first little forays into Mochahanga. So from meeting Keiko Kodota and then to getting to your apartment and starting to make prints, what were you picking up? You're thrust into this translation job and then you're trying to pick things up and understanding, were you making stuff in between those periods or when did you first officially say, "Okay, this is the time. This is where I'm going to start." I was making stuff. I look at it now and see, I guess it was quite basic in a way. It was really me trying to get to grips with the technique. So I was really doing, really concentrating on my carving, concentrating on registration. I wanted to get the registration really spot on, so to speak, really concentrating on my bokashi. Just going through all those steps, I'd get paper in my apartment and I'd practice all the sizing of the paper. So all the little things, all the details, I just went my way through that. Probably, I guess, because at that stage I was working as a printing. I was going through an apprenticeship, I was working full-time predominantly in etching, really, helping with screen printing. So I guess I was still at that stage very much in the printer mindset rather than the artist's mindset because that's really what I wanted to do at that stage. I was happy with pursuing that career as a printer. I'm very thankful, actually, that I did have that quite intense apprenticeship and introduction to these different techniques because that helped me in good stead later down the line when I switched a little bit more to becoming an artist, if you like, moving away from working full-time as a printer. How long was the apprenticeship? Oh, I had to say really, because what I would do, I'd work full-time teaching English. And then at the weekends, I would go into the workshop and they actually had a Korean master lithographer who would come over for periods of time to do very complex, they were like 14, 15 colour lithographies. And so basically, I would come in at the weekends and work as a sponger for him. I'd be just sponging the plates. Interesting. That for quite a while. And then, gradually, it's, you know, preparing paper, how to cut and tear paper, how to mix inks. But of course, you know, this is in Japan. It's not just, you know, a quick cut here and there and a quick mix of ink. It had to be done absolutely, you know, to perfection pretty much. So, yeah, how long it was, I lose track now, it seems so long ago. So I did that weekend, gradually cut back on the English teaching. So I'd be teaching English a couple of days a week in the workshop a couple of days a week. And maybe I don't know, maybe did that for 12 months and then gradually became full-time in the workshop and I could cut away the English teaching. So there was multiple types of printing in the workshop. Yes, yes. I was predominantly in etching. So initially, I guess, my apprenticeship was more in terms of assisting with anything. So, like I say, the lithography, screen printing, curating prints. You know, the workshop had to survive by doing, I guess, more kind of commercial type stuff. And also then doing the projects that it really loved that maybe didn't make a great deal of money. We did a lot of work for Amano at that time. Who did the final fantasy? He was at his peak then, so we had hundreds of prints coming through there. And then also then we moved on to doing Murakami's screen prints. So, you know, I've probably curated hundreds of Murakami's prints over my time. But, yeah, predominantly, I was working as an etching printer way before, you know, I kind of shifted so that Moko Hangal also became part of my practice. How do you make that decision to say this is going to be my career? I guess it's a daunting decision because it's a difficult profession to try and succeed at. Yes, and I guess, you know, I did art school in England. It was never even mentioned as a possible profession. You were basically, you know, checked out of art school, so to speak, and that's it. You know, go and make your way in the world as an artist. It wasn't even mentioned as a career option. But I think I've always been a bit of a dreamer, so I knew that I wanted to travel somewhere. Also, at the time, you know, as I grew up through all my schooling, I grew up in the northwest of England, through Art College, we really felt the brunt of, you know, the Margaret Thatcher, it's had a devastating impact on the area that I grew up. So, there wasn't a lot of work available, particularly someone who'd come out, you know, with an arts degree. Like I say, I just wanted to travel and thought about where I could go. I thought very strongly about Canada. I had kind of a dream about going to Canada, but then I also looked at Japan. And basically, English teaching was my way to get out and get to Japan, so that's how it started. And then I guess I was kind of lucky. Again, it was before the age of the internet, really. It was just not quite getting there with emails, but I was just writing letters to any printmaking workshop I could in Japan. And then after a couple of weeks, the letters started coming back to me, returned to Santa, because those workshops had closed down. But I did get one successful letter back, which was ultimately the workshop they ended up working for. And luckily for me, the boss of that workshop, he'd spent quite a long time in America, and he was a tamarind trained printer. And so he had very good English, and so he was happy for me to go and visit. And yeah, eventually, I was able to get work there. So I'm very grateful that he gave me that little in, that opportunity to start that career path, I guess. So how long were you in Japan for? 11 years in the end. So 11 years is a good chunk of a person's life. And so from the beginning of the workshop, and then how is your work evolving at this time? You decide to make a career, I'm going to do it. And then from day one to the time you leave Japan, I know it's a long period, but how you evolved and developed. Well, like I say, I think I was very much on the trajectory of becoming a professional printer. So I didn't really have a strong feeling at that time that I wanted to pursue a career as an artist. And maybe again, it was a financial thing. I thought, well, at least if I'm working as a printer, you know, I can earn money, I can get that skill. And looking back now, I think that was a good decision, because then ultimately I was able to, when I left Japan, I was able to get work as a printer in Singapore, and then get work as a printer in Australia. So I feel very grateful that I've learned that skill and had that kind of career that could also enable me to travel to these different countries and cultures, which, as I say, I've always wanted to travel. I love traveling. So in terms of working as an artist and creating my own work, it wasn't really at the forefront, I guess, for a lot of the time that I was in Japan. It was only later that, you know, I started to think about that a little bit more, and that became more important, I guess, than continuing to work full-time as a printer. So there was a bit of a shift, probably not until I came to Australia that shift happened. So in Japan, you're basically working for other people, right? You're making workshops and then contracted to make certain things. Yes, exactly. Working as a collaborating printer. So we would have artists come into the workshop and they may spend, you know, whatever it was, a couple of weeks or a couple of months working with my boss, the master printer, and me as the assisting printer, whatever it was to make etchings or wood blocks or lithographies. And then after that, "additioning", so, you know, I spent a good amount of my training and work-life "additioning" prints as well. Yeah, in that space. How much of your mokongos was being developed, personally, in Japan? I kind of feel like it was just percolating while I was in Japan, which is, I guess, kind of a bit backwards, because you think if I was in Japan, I would be doing a lot more mok-o-hanga, but it was just percolating. Like I say, you know, I was, obviously, I'd make keiko kodata and had some interactions with her and a little bit of practice there. But then I left Japan to go and work at, in Singapore, the Singapore Tyler Print Institute. And I did a little bit, that was also that workshop. Basically, it was a full-time job as a printer, and we would be collaborating with artists almost continuously, and in between those times we'd be "additioning" as well. But also, we were obligated to do weekend workshops, like public workshops, and I decided I would do some Japanese wood block workshops. Which was, again, good practice for me. And two of my colleagues, actually, the man who ran the workshop and his wife, they were Japanese, and so I was able to do some of those workshops with Tamai, who was a Japanese printer there. So that was, again, kind of just a nice little continuation. And then I did a project where I traveled out to Cambodia, just for a weekend, and I took a colleague came with me to assist me. And I went out and did a special workshop there with some students at a small arts institute. So, again, not really doing my own work, but just keeping my hand in, I guess, with that technique and still having an interest in the technique, but more in terms of working as a printer with people. So, when do you start focusing on making your own mokahanga on a regular basis? Well, again, I spent a year in Singapore, then I moved to Australia, but I spent, I don't know, probably six or seven years, again, working as a collaborating printer. So, this was the start of me traveling out to Aboriginal communities and doing workshops in Indigenous communities with artists. And, again, additioning those works. So it's only really, I guess, maybe in the last 10 to 12 years, I've really started, I'm just trying to think of the timelines. Yeah, probably something like that, 10 to 12 years where I've really focused in on the mokahanga. Perhaps the start of that was, you know, I went to the first international mokahanga conference in Kyoto in 2011, and then I was invited to the first Me Lab residency in 2012. So that was my first opportunity, really, to focus on my own work quite intensively. Yeah, Me Lab, those who I've interviewed tend to say Me Lab is very condensed and concentrated way of kind of understanding yourself, understanding your own mokahanga. Was that happening with you as well? Tell me about that experience. Yes, well, I was very lucky to be invited for the first one, it was a six-week period. And I was invited to do that residency alongside Hiroki Morinoue, Ralph Kidjal, and K Kohara, which was pretty perfect because all of them were fantastic, and we all got on amazingly well. So it was a really wonderful residency. And as I was still working full-time as a printer in Darwin, Australia, so for me to have that opportunity to take time out was wonderful, but also it took me a bit of adjusting it because you can't suddenly start producing artwork. After you've been working full-time, basically helping other artists to produce their artworks. So I felt very lucky that it was Keiko Ralph in Hiroki because they were very experienced, long-term artists, and so I could observe the way they worked. I got some very gentle mentorship from them really, and so it was a good environment for me to be in, I didn't feel kind of pressured. I felt like I was, I guess, in a safe space, you know, a very supportive space. And also, we were pretty much left to our own devices. We had an initial week or so, I think, in Tokyo, where we received some instruction and demonstrations on printing and sharpening our tools. And then after that, we moved to Yaminashi, and apart from a paper-mounting workshop, which was wonderful, we pretty much left to our own devices to create our works. Yeah, so it was a fantastic opportunity, really. Coming back to Japan at that point and then working on printing, it must have been a different experience altogether to having to return, and then you're in this new space, and things have changed and evolved for you. What was that like? I always love going back to Japan. In a way, it's like coming home. I feel very comfortable. I can slip back into Japan and feel very comfortable in the culture and the environment. But having said that, there's always something else that you can discover, something else that you can learn, because it's just so rich in so many different areas. So, yeah, I love it. Yeah, you brought up the late Ralph Kijol. You worked in Thailand with Ralph. What was that like? Yes, I worked with him a couple of times, actually. One time he was actually after I'd been in Australia, he'd seen the work that I was doing with Indigenous artists. He was quite keen to do a similar type of workshop in Thailand with some ethnic groups, actually in the northwest of Thailand. So, yeah, we did that. I travelled. We organised as I would for an Indigenous workshop because you're travelling to very remote places. You have to think way in advance of the logistics of getting your materials, your tools, either taking them out there or getting them there ahead of your arrival. So, it's quite heavy logistics and planning ahead for something like that. Yeah, Ralph contacted an NGO that was operating on the border there. They were running some schools for young children who had come over the border from Myanmar and they were different groups. So, we organised, got all the materials, all the tools together, I think we had all that centrehead so that when we arrived, it was all there. And, yeah, we delivered some wonderful little workshops there, both in Mokkohanga and also in line-oprinting. Fantastic experience because these children, they're pretty much in limbo where they are. So, they're not accepted into Thai society, so they can't go to Thai schools, which is why the NGO operates there for providing basic lessons, but they don't get any art lessons. So, it was wonderful for us to be able, just in a very short period there to provide some art instruction, particularly in the Mokkohanga, which Ralph took it even further by then contacting a gallery in Bangkok, but he also had a gallery in Chiang Mai, and the gallery owner offered the gallery for an exhibition of the Mokkohanga by these children. And also, eventually, he also offered a bus, so the children were able to travel down by bus for the opening of their exhibition. So, yeah, really lovely projects. Oh, how does Mokkohanga bring people together? Because it seems to be, right? You take these concepts and ideas that start from one country in the world, and then you go by bus or plane or car and you bring it to people who may never have heard of it. What is that like? What's the ultimate goal with that? Quite often people, when I've talked about these projects, like I said, I did a similar one in Cambodia, which was working with young teenagers, and they were part of a kind of art institute, which they would attend, because at that stage, there weren't enough places in regular school for all the Cambodian children. So, Cambodian children were only able to attend school part-time. And so, for the remaining days, this art institute did a very good job of, I guess, keeping the kids out of trouble and off the streets by having them have arts and craft lessons. But people quite often say, "Well, yeah, what's the point of that? Is it sustainable?" Quite often I get that question, "Is it sustainable to go out to these places and teach them? Are they going to carry on doing it?" And I'd say, "Well, probably not, probably not in a lot of cases, but I feel like, especially with these kids in Thailand and Cambodia, that's okay, even if they just have a couple of hours or one day experience of Mokohanga, or it may be something else, but what I can offer in terms of my technique and my knowledge is Mokohanga. And if I can bring that to a group of kids or a group of adults, it doesn't matter, even for one day, then I think that's enough. It doesn't have to be sustainable. If that can be part of their experience, that they remember as children or that they remember as adults as a special artistic experience, then that's enough, I think. And it shouldn't be a reason for us not to go to less developed countries or countries that don't have access as we do to doing Mokohanga full-time. I don't think that should stop us from doing that. What do they mean by sustainable? I think they mean, "Are they going to keep doing it after I've left? Are they going to have the tools and the ability and the facilities to carry on doing Mokohanga later on?" And that's something it may have also come up when I've been doing collaborations with artists in Indigenous communities as well. Probably most of them will not do Mokohanga again, but I can look back at some of the prints that have come out of these workshops in Indigenous communities. The work is fantastic, and some of these prints now are actually in interstate galleries in Australia. So to me, it doesn't matter that they're not going to carry on doing this technique again, in terms of that sustainability. Sure. I mean, it's a positive thing, so that's everything. Yes, yes. You like to go to remote places. I mean, you like to travel and kind of experience – you see the one experience everywhere that you live. You've been doing remote printmaking workshops in Australia. Tell me why you decided to do that and what is it brought to you. Well, where I live, I live in Darwin in the northern territory in the north of Australia, which in itself is considered fairly remote anyway. So as soon as you leave Darwin to travel in the northern territory, it is considered remote. We don't have a lot of choices. Darwin's now becoming a larger city, but the northern territory still is very remote. So pretty much anyway, you're going to travel to offer workshops or printmaking is going to be remote. So maybe it's not necessarily that I'm purposely, purposefully going to these remote places. It's just I happen to live in a place where the communities are remote. Yeah. You've gone there in what? In 2007, and then you were working these collaborations with the Tiwi? Is that right? So tell me the same, is it the same idea as Thailand and Cambodia? You go there, you set up, you connect with people and then you make prints. Is that right? Yes, I guess with Thailand and Cambodia with me working with children and teenagers, I guess I'd consider it more like teaching. With Australia, I'd be working with adults and the adults were artists. Some of them nationally recognised artists in their own right, painters and sculptors. So in that way, I'd consider it collaborating as a printer. And yes, I was operating out of a printmaking workshop at Charles Darwin University. And so we would kind of contact many of these communities, the indigenous communities, they would have an art centre. And we would contact an art centre with a view to maybe doing a project and going out to do a workshop. And the same deal again, I'd have to work out the logistics and the planning, send out the materials in advance. TV islands is north of Darwin, so you fly, so just a short flight out to a couple of the main islands there. So I ended up doing four separate workshops with three different communities there over a period of time. Can't remember how many artists in the end, it was probably about 30 artists, I think. And working on quite small scale wood blocks, I think they're about 45 by 30 centimetre sized wood blocks. And I was able to do the proofing on site, they did all the carving, we did proofing on site, and then I brought all the blocks back to Darwin for editioning then. So that's kind of the formula, I guess, I've done similar things with other communities in the Northern Territory and also in Western Australia. And then with a view to having an exhibition of those prints, the TV island prints actually were part of the 2011 Mokohanga conference on our G Island, which was, you know, fantastic for the artists there. And also on TV islands, traditionally with their own painting, they source their own ochres and they mix the ochres. So that was my first time, I think, to have a go at working with the natural ochres and mixing those up to make the Mokohanga prints. Oh wow, in 2014 you did an international Mokohanga conference, you did a lecture on it, is that true? Oh yes, that was, yes, that's right, with another printer, again, another workshop that was out did a incredibly remote community community called Balgo, or Guidi Manu, it's the Aboriginal name, which is out in Western Australia, very remote desert region. That was actually working with a group of men, so again it was an art centre in which the women were quite, the women artists were quite prolific, but the men were a little bit, I guess disenfranchised, not really coming to the art centre, so they asked us to come and work there. So I worked with a male printer because the men were a little bit reluctant to work with a female printer, quite often in the art centres, they would keep the women and the men separate, and this was one of those art centres. The male printer I was working with would work with the men very closely in terms of their carving and their design, and then I would basically be at a little bit of a distance, kind of coordinating, and then I came in to do the proofing. Once I started the proofing, I think the men felt more relaxed with my presence, and we were able to work quite nicely together, but very, very, yes, testing conditions, very hot, very windy, very dusty, definitely not the control mocha hanga studia, you should be used to. This was published in printmaking today as well, and what's the reaction to your work with remote communities by the outside world, by others? I think generally interest, I had to say really, I think people are generally very interested, I think Keiko Kagota was particularly interested in the fact that I was using the natural ochas, so there was some discussion around that. I can't really think now, try to think what other possible reactions there would have been. Sure, the fact of going to these places, there's something inside of you that decides to do this, you want to do this, you need to go and expose the ideas of mocha hanga and also other printmaking methods, but mocha hanga specifically. Is there something about mocha hanga that makes you want to share it to other people, and then the idea of remoteness, the idea of being alone somewhere, or remote from our society, or your society, wherever you may be, that means something. Right, that must mean something, to bring that to somebody who didn't know what existed at one point. Yes, yes, I don't know, maybe sometimes I feel like I'm a bit of a masochist, but I probably say it's for remote places to do projects. But yeah, I guess maybe my thinking at that time as well was, you know, the thing that we say about mocha hanga, the beauty of it is that you don't need a printing press, you don't need assets. You know, I've done etching workshops in remote places as well, and it's a lot, lot more intense than a mocha hanga workshop, you know, there's a lot more processing with the chemicals with the plates. It's a lot more toxic, so again, that was another attraction, I guess, for the artists, not to be working with toxic materials, and also because it was something that they could see the results of whilst I was there. So if I was doing an etching workshop, a lot of the time, we would work with the artists, the artists would work on the plates, we were processing etch the plates, but a lot of the time we'd have to bring those plates back to Darwin for proofing. So there was a bit of a disconnect there, whereas if I did the mocha hanga, the artists could work on their design, they could carve the blocks, and then I could proof it in front of them. And then when I did the proofing with the ochas, that added an extra connection for the artists, I think they really liked the fact that their ochas were being used for printing, and the fact that they could see the print there right in front. Yeah, there wasn't that disconnect you have with etching. Tell me about the artists that were involved in remote Australia workshop, you said you were working with other artists, but what kind of work are they doing? Yes, most of the time I would travel to the artists, so the one at the 2014 conference that I spoke about, yeah, we traveled to their community and we spent a week with them. And that is most of the cases, the same with the TV islands, I would travel there and work so that they work and live there. I think there was only maybe one group of artists where we had them come into Darwin, but in most cases, yeah, it's much easier for me to travel there rather than a whole group. I would work with maybe 10 artists for workshops, so if a 10 artist to travel from their remote communities to Darwin is a big ask really. What's their work like? What's the other art? What are their mediums? What do they work like? It can be a variety, it can be painting, it can be sculpture, some of the communities that will work paintings on canvas, some of them will draw, they can use their ochre paints for drawing on paper, some will do wood carvings. The first workshop I ever did in Australia was out in a place called Arnhem Land where they paint, but they only paint on bark, so they don't do any works on canvas, so do bark painting and sculptures. They also did some fantastic mocha hunger works. That's the only community as well where I've been where I had a couple of artists who were using razor blades, so rather than using the Japanese tools for the fine lines, they pulled out a razor blade and started carving like that. Not something I could do, but they made it look easy. Yeah, it's all shena work. That's easily carriable and easy to carve too. With some of the artists that you had met during these travels, what are you gleaming from them? It's osmotic, you're sharing your work and then you're discussing and through conversation and all these wonderful things. What are you learning out of these experiences? I learn about their culture and learn about what they are painting about or what they are carving, whatever they're printing. Each of the communities I travel to are different cultural groups, they're different language groups, so they have very different stories to tell. So yeah, for me, it's very new. It's very quick because I'm only there for a week, so it's a very limited exposure for me to their culture, but yeah, like I say, each one is very different. The Tiwi Islands also, I felt, was very special because I was working predominantly with women. For some reason, the men were slightly less inclined to enjoy the carving process of mocha hunger. I think they just enjoy getting a chainsaw and doing their sculpture more than carving away of woodblock. So what I get out of that is sitting with a group of women while they carve and where they have a way of just sitting around and quietly plugging away at this woodblock while they're chatting and they've got the kids coming around and the dogs wander through. It's a real community thing at the art centre, so I enjoy that atmosphere. The workshop at Balgo in the desert was, I say, very different because that was a group of men, so I had it was very much on the periphery and they were quite protective of what they were carving and what the images were about. But what I got from that at the end of it, I did have a couple of those artists come to me and explain what their images were about and I felt quite honoured actually that they felt that they could trust me enough at the end of the week to come and tell me what they had done as part of their imagery. Yeah, many different experiences. Protective how? Well, a lot of these stories are very cultural, so if you go to further in the central desert where they'll do the dot painting, a lot of these paintings were actually that they're covered by other dots, so they don't want to reveal the whole story because this is part of their culture, so they don't want to just put this on a canvas or on a print for the whole world to see. This can be quite sacred and very special to them as part of their culture. Yeah, the idea of sharing but not sharing at the same time, keeping something behind the curtain, I like that idea. Yes, yes, yes. And to do it on canvas or to do it through prints is, that's interesting, that's difficult to do. Let's talk a bit about you and your work, your mocha-hanga, and you've experienced all these different things. It looks like to me, your themes tend to be, correct me if I'm wrong, the local environment and the land and ideas of geography. This is something you gravitated towards or this is a conscious choice. I think it just comes to me naturally, I think, much more than industrial environments or people. I think it's always just been more of the natural landscape, not necessarily a traditional way all the time, but the natural landscape that I'm in at that stage. Do you sketch a lot, do you go out and have or does it come to your head and you do it right there? Immediately, I'm going to make this print. I don't sketch a huge amount, it can be quite rough, quite basic. I spend a lot of time, I guess my husband will call it procrastinating. Staring, thinking, I like to go walking. I'll take a lot of photographs, which I will reference later. Just a lot of time just looking and thinking, if I'm looking at the landscape, I'm looking at it in terms of colors and in terms of mocha-hanga and shapes and working through the processes in my head. You live in Darwin? Yes, Darwin. Well, just outside of Darwin, actually, about 45 minutes out, so it's what they would call a semi-rural area. What's that like for you and your work? Yes, we have what the Australian is called, bush, so there's bush around where I live, and yes, it's quite rural. It can be, well, it's a tropical environment, so it's different from the seasons that we get down south in say Melbourne and Sydney. So we have a tropical in terms of a dry season and then a wet season. We also have a season that they call the build-up when it gets very, very hot, very humid, and we're basically waiting for the rain to come, but it doesn't come for a few months. They call it the build-up because everyone starts to get really quite aggravated and impatient because we're just absolutely sweating our guts out. What is your printmaking output when you're, you know, and I know you're a very busy person, especially over there, and you're in Scotland currently as we speak. So, I mean, you always seem to be on the move and you seem to be always doing something. How does it, how do you sit down and take the time to make work? Because you show in a lot of places and you work a lot in Australia, like with the Australian Government's Regional Arts Fund, and there's all these things that are happening. How do you make it happen when you live in your environment? Usually under intense pressure and at the last meeting, it's your reason. I tend to also, I guess, when I decide to do a project, I like to do a lot of research, so as well as the procrastination and the staring into space and that kind of thing. I do a lot of research and that can, you know, take me into a lot of reading, going to the library, you know, various things like that. So, I like to, I guess I like to learn something from what I'm doing. So, I'm just thinking of, you know, projects that I've done research, so one of the ones that I did in 2022, I guess, was my most recent one, was shifting tides, which was all about Darwin Harbour. And I spent a lot of time, because that was the exhibition, was at the Northern Territory Library. I spent a lot of the time at the library. I spent time going around various areas in the harbour, talking to people, taking photographs, going out on the harbour. So, there's all this background research that, I guess, takes up a lot of time, but I feel like at the end of it, at the end of actually having made my prints and have my exhibition, that I've actually learned something more about the environment that I've been creating in my prints, that makes sense. Yeah, you've been in shows, you've been around the world, your work has been around the world. At the Foundry Vineyards, the Mokahanga Project Space Invitational that happened in Walla Walla. In 2023, like, you're part of these groups of people that are making Mokahanga. How are the themes shared with people? Do you find that people are attracted to landscape and attracted to these types of themes, more so than other themes, especially in a group setting, when people are lots of different people from around the world who are looking at your work? Is that something you think about, or is that something that you just do? That's a really good question, and interesting that you mentioned Walla Walla, and recently I've had my work. It's part of the Kentler Gallery in New York, and even though the basis of my work in recent years is from the Australian landscape, I feel like a lot of the people who buy my work are actually coming from the States, which is really curious and interesting for me that the customers are from the United States, even though I'm producing landscapes that originate from Australia, particularly Walla Walla, that my works were very well received there, and I had good sales of the works there, so actually probably more so than in Australia, which is interesting. That's interesting. I guess with the idea of locals don't know what they've got until it's gone, you know what I mean? You live in a city like, "Oh yeah, that's that, that's that." It's always the outside, the other people that see you for who you try to be, I guess. Yes, yes. It's curious, isn't it? Particularly the prints, the hot burn prints that were in Walla Walla, I've had people from different countries purchase those works. Recently I had someone from Glasgow who purchased one of my works of Darwin Harbour, so even though it originates in Darwin Harbour, I guess the image of the harbour, of the storm, that can be relevant all around the world. Even though it starts with Darwin, there's many, many harbors around the world who are going to have similar looks and similar feels about them. But that could also be your representation of it, right? Like how you, yeah, you're right, anybody can do a rock or a tree or a place in the city. But how about resonates with people beyond me, right? I don't know how someone looks at your work go, "Wow, bingo, that's it, that's what I want." That's right. I mean, obviously when I create the work I have something in my mind's eye, but what the viewer will think is it can be entirely different and that's fine by me, and if they can't start to fit, something resonates with them, then great. It's just the beauty of it, right? That's just like you're trying to... And also I think it helps you be confident in, or artists be confident in, that they're doing the right thing. Yes, yeah, that's true. Yeah, that's true. Good point. Now, sales, for instance, when it comes to monetary and the capitalistic idea of what people are trying to do or what we're trying to do, or a mokong artist, or any artist is trying to do. How do you resonate with that? How does that work for you? Do you enjoy selling work? Obviously you must. I mean, who doesn't like selling their own work, but does that legitimate what you're doing, or should it? I guess you always have... I mean, trying as a struggling artist to make things happen. Yeah, I guess you have to keep that in your head somewhere. To what extent it would affect what I produce or not. Sometimes I feel like I'm going to make a work that I think probably won't sell or might not sell, but I feel like I still want to make that work. I feel the need to make that work. I don't know if that answers your question. No, that does. I mean, let's try to think about that one. That's the question, right? I mean, I know one artist who they're a mokong artist, and they decided that they were going to make a lot of the same print over and over again, or different variations of it, because it sold a lot. I wonder sometimes people become aware, more aware of what they're making based, or predicated on how much it sells, or if it's more popular or whatnot. I think what you're saying is that that doesn't necessarily come into play. You want to make what makes you happy and where it could possibly make other people happy, but as long as you enjoy making the work, if it sells or sells, if it doesn't, it doesn't. Yes. I think that's pretty spot on, actually. I'm just thinking as well, back when I was working at the university as a printer, and directly next door to the workshop, we had a gallery. So we could see how sales of the prints that we were working on, that we were auditioning every day were going. It's amazing how you could get it so wrong, because as printers, we go, "This print's going to be fantastic. It's going to be a seller. We love it. We love printing it." Yet, it could sit in the gallery for months on end with barely any interest. It could be another one that we maybe not like so much. It would fly out the window. It would fly out the door. People would love it and come and vlog and purchase it. You can never really always tell what's going to be a seller or not. I think that's just art, whether it's music or film or prints. You just do what you can and hope for the best. Maybe that's a way of looking at it that's helpless in some ways. I don't know. I think people pick up on the confidence, but there's some good stuff out there that nobody cares about. There's not great stuff out there that people love. I don't know. You're trying to understand how people think and think that's difficult to do. Yes. You just got to do it, I guess. At the end of the day, I don't want to be just producing something that I know is just going to run out the door. Of course, I love the money, but I think I would feel quite depressed just producing something for the sake of solely for sales. I want to enjoy what I'm creating and feel happy about it. Definitely. I can see what I'm looking through on your website, your gallery and other prints itself. I can see where the etching comes from. When you're mochaonga, I feel like, correct me if I'm wrong, but I was looking at the more than human world. I'm really fascinated by those two prints, like Harbor Squall. It's interesting. I go, "Wow, I can see where you're coming from in terms of your experience as an artist and experience as a printmaker in several different types of medium printmaking, but making mochaonga." I see that more so with your work. What do you think? Do you think I'm off my head? No, I'm very interested to hear what you're saying. Does that come into play? When you're planning your etching mochaonga specifically? I think recently, I've been working predominantly in mochaonga. I do have a long-term etching project, which has been a hold for way too long, but it does come into it. Obviously, my first love, if you like, was etching. I love drawing, so that's why I love going back to etching, so I can feel like I can go back to drawing. Sometimes it was like, "Well, am I going to do an etching project, or am I going to do a woodblock project?" I have to think about what I want to get out of that image, and is it going to work through mochaonga better, or is it going to work through etching better? With the mangroves and the harbour squall, I don't know. I don't know about that one. How do you mean? Just in terms of what you were thinking, that you were looking at the prints in terms of possibly etching qualities coming into play there? For me, what it is, is the lines. It's also the rain, and then the colour. Also, the mangroves ones especially for me, because when I think of etching, and I've never done etching, I'm coming from just an observational way. But when I see etching the metal, and I see the browns, and I see the very thin lines, that's what's clicking for me. The way the colour is, and how it's balanced in the print, I'm like, if someone has said to me that was an etching, I may have been inclined to agree. That's how I'm seeing it, right? No, having these discussions with me is really interesting, so I'm thinking that the nature of the mangroves would actually work really well with etching, because what I was trying to convey in a way with that woodblock is the complexity and the messiness of the mangroves and the mangroves roots. It's not a beautiful landscape or seascape where the mangroves are concerned. It can be quite complex and messy, and when you're in it, it can be a bit unpleasant as well, with the mosquitoes and the heat and the water. I could create something of that effect within etching as well, but I guess that's scratchiness that you see in the woodblock. That's what I was really trying to do, because when I first started doing that, I felt that the mangroves were looking to clean, to clear cut, and it's not that kind of environment. Were those based off photos? Yes, I generally take a lot of photographs, and I may take bits from different photographs, and once I start carving, then I may do a bit of free-floating, so the carving may change as I go along. You did a show in 2023 called Australian Mokahanga, was it in press print makers? Australian Mokahanga. I always ask the question, but I'm a big fan of the environment, which is why I love your work, because I love where we are and who we are, or essentially who we are in a lot of ways. Like I said, you're in Scotland right now, but that's affecting you. Whatever's going on in Scotland is affecting you. It's going to affect your work period, whatever you do in life. I'm fascinated by that, so I've asked people from around the world that, "Is there a so-and-so mokahanga?" So I ask you, "Is there an Australian Mokahanga?" Because it's not an isolated Japanese technique, it's now become something else. Yes, it's hard for me to say, because Darwin and the Northern Territory, like I say, is very remote, so I don't want to say lonely, but I'm very alone in the Northern Territory doing mokahanga. And it was fantastic that it was invited to be in that exhibition, because it was nice to see what other people around Australia were doing in terms of the mokahanga. But yeah, I think I'm pretty much the only one, if I think I am the only one doing mokahanga up in the Northern Territory. So it can feel quite isolating. So it's hard for me to say what is Australia mokahanga, because it's a huge country, a huge continent, and we're very widely spread, I think. Yeah, it's a big country. Which is the beauty of coming together during the conferences, because finally you can get to meet your colleagues and your peers, and you can discuss the finer intricacies of mokahanga, what mokahanga is, and what people are materials they're doing, or techniques that they're using. So I kind of miss that a little bit from where I am. It's interesting that the subtitle for the Australian mokahanga show was Japanese woodblock. Now, names are important, and so it is Japanese woodblock, and it's the technique of Japanese woodblock, and yet it's juxtaposed by Australian mokahanga, or Canadian mokahanga, whatnot. Is that conflict, do you think it's a conflict, or is it, because mokahanga has changed and adapted so many times. I mean, what you're doing is rooted in Japanese technique and tradition, but I would argue that it's not Japanese, right? Yeah, I'd never noticed that about the title, actually, you've picked up on that. (laughs) But yeah, I mean, it opens a whole raft of questions, is there, about what is Japanese mokahanga. When I was still in Japan, you know, probably before, really the International Mokahanga Conference was getting popular. But, you know, me as a printer in Japan, I would say, "Suisse mokahanga," or "You say mokahanga." Yeah. And then as I got into this community of mokahanga artists, they weren't using the "Suisse" just got drops, and I kept saying "Suisse mokahanga," because I felt like that's where I'd come from. I knew that there was a distinction between "You say and Suisse." But now, you know, internationally, we take mokahanga as just, we assume it is "Suisse mokahanga." Whereas, really, mokahanga just means woodblock prints. So, but it's become part of the English vernacular, hasn't it, that we just say mokahanga, and we know that we're talking about, well, is it Japanese mokahanga, or is it what space mokahanga? Yeah, that's the eternal question. I think you want to know. It is tricky. When you say "You say mokahanga," do you define that for me? I was using that as the writer. Yeah, the oil-based. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Ralph Kijl, when I interviewed him, we were talking about the same thing, and we were talking about, he said he would prefer "Suisse," and I remember this, I still have it. I like that idea. I like the idea of delineating between the two. I don't think it's delineated enough in some ways, because it kind of, there's so many, I mean, look, it's the shows you've been in, and some of these artists are doing collage, or doing different types of mokahanga that is not just water-based, and some of the most famous mokahanga artists in the last 50, 60, 70 years sometimes would use oil-based. So, it's a way to connect with people thinking, because the non-toxic and its water-based, people like that. That's something that is liked. But I wonder if oil tends to get a bad rap, because it's not, I mean, what's non-toxic, really? I was looking at something today, and they said low-toxic. I think I was looking at something through you when I was researching some stuff today, but it was low-toxic. I like that idea. Nothing's truly non-toxic, right? That's true, yes, yeah, yeah. And I was just a train of thought there, talking at what you just pointed out there about Japanese mokahanga, or Japanese woodcut, because when I first started working with indigenous artists, I think I was using the term Japanese woodblock. But gradually, I felt like I wanted to move away from that, because I felt like maybe, for the Australian audience, they were confusing, and they think Japanese woodblock, maybe its traditional images from Japan. So I felt maybe it would be better to say water-based woodcut. And these days, I guess now, since IFAS started in Australia, even in this less 10 or 15 years, the use of mokahanga has become a lot more popular and accepted and known. Yeah, so it's interesting about that. The use of Japanese woodblock, which I don't think I use that these days. Yeah, because I think, yeah, there's a connotation of it that has, it's directly something representing Japan, which... Yeah, it's like okay away, and I think it's going to be okay away, but... Sure, right. Yeah, any of the words from the... There's so many words to describe in many things. You know, you've studied living in Japan, so you've made Japan as many different ways of describing things. Yes. Yes. Yes. What's mokahanga? I mean, then we're dealing in more existential territory here, but it's also about how to present that to people. How do you sell your work? How do you use these tools, these word tools, to kind of expand or tell people... Because that's the hardest part, at least for me, describing why I make... What am I making? What's Japanese woodblock prints? What does that mean? Oh, okay, well, that says... Because it's so deeply rooted in Japan. Yes, yes. But then at the same time, you describe it as that. It becomes literal. Well, okay, well, where's the Japanese imagery? Where's... You know, what makes a Japanese? Oh, actually, it's the technique. Oh, and that becomes more... I don't know, hard to grasp, I think. Well, it's how you carve, and then the type of wood you use, and the different tools, and... I don't know. Yes. Yeah. I'm just going on a tangent, but that's kind of... And it could also go the other way. You could be underselling, because if you're saying water-based woodblock, you know, to your average person in the street, you'll be going, "Well, what's water-based woodblock?" Sure. Really, it's still quite technical term to use water-based woodblock. You know, for someone who works within the realms of prints and printmaking, they'll go, "Oh, okay." But not to your average person who's just looking to buy an artwork. So sometimes I feel it's quite handy to have the word "mokohanga" to be able to explain, you know, why water-based woodcut is good, or why it creates the image. It helps to create the images that I make. On your website, it says artist and printmaker, and then as you go deeper into your website, you see mokohanga, you see these words, and it's well-described. So, yeah, I mean, it depends on how people... I mean, you're doing you, right? You play ultimately, and you're trying to show yourself to the world and what you do, and I guess it all depends on the person trying to explain it, because not everything has to be an academic thesis, right? That right has to be... Doesn't that be this complicated, but, you know, how do you promote your song? Yeah. The marketing aspect of it. I'd like to talk about what materials you use these days, what type of paper are you using? Paper is eternally tricky, in terms of supply. For quite a while, I was using Coso from Ozawashi, especially Ralph, again, who recommended a couple of papers there, and I had those sent out to me, one, a thicker one, one a thinner one, and I was using those for a number of years. I just absolutely loved printing on them that I just could have kept going with those. Then, of course, COVID hit, and there was nothing coming from Japan to Australia, and even now, it's still... The supply chain is still not fully recovered, and Ozawashi doesn't produce that paper, right? It produces it in a smaller size, which I really like to get the full sheet, the 60 by 90 sheets. So, I've tried a variety of different papers, and it will vary depending on if I've been doing workshops with artists in the past. I've used machine-made papers for classes and for workshops in the communities, because I know that they're very reliable in very tough conditions. I don't want to be messing around, if you like, with something that's going to be expensive and handmade in those kind of conditions. So, I need something that's pretty sturdy and reliable, but within terms of my own work, generally, yeah, I would like to use a handmade paper, but a lighter quality. In the last couple of years, I've just been trying different ones through Matsumura Woodlight, but I'd say at the moment, I'm in between papers. I'm still on a search for getting that beautiful lightweight one that I used to get from Ozawashi, and if I can get one that I'm happy with, then I will stick with it. Having said that, I do also use a machine-made one from time to time. Of course, it doesn't have the same length, the same nice feeling that you get from a handmade one, but sometimes it can just work nicely with my prints. The mangrove prints and the harbor one that you were just talking about, they were both on a machine-made paper, and they just work well for that. What is it of a paper that you like in a handmade paper? What is it that you enjoy? Just the feel of it, and the feel of when you're printing as well, you don't really get that back from a heavy quality or slightly heavier quality machine-made one. It feels more machine-like. I don't know the way to describe that, but it's just a beautiful softness and subtlety about using the handmade, high-quality washi. Not close to London, but being in a country or a part of the world that is... You can get a lot of things in that part of the world. Any suppliers or anything down there that would help you with that? Yeah, well, funnily enough, just a couple of days ago, I'm just trying to start a project now, and here in Scotland, I don't have any of my supplies of paper or anything, so I was looking at the suppliers down in London. There are a few options there, so I've actually just put an order in, but with these things, it's a bit like a lottery. You can look it on the website and it looks very nice, but you don't really know until it arrives if it's exactly what you're after, and of course, until you actually print it, whether you like it. So the moment, yeah, I feel like I'm just back at Square One trying to source the right papers to get me started here. Is that liberating or is that daunting? It can be a bit costly. It's a bit of both. I'll let you know in a couple of weeks' time. Yeah, you're just a trillion dollar is similar to the Canadian dollar. I think our dollar's a little stronger, but when you're dealing with pounds, man, it's the worst. Yes, yeah, well, I did put an order online yesterday and then I looked at the final amount. I was like, "Oh, I might have to cut that one back a little bit." Yeah, I know exactly how you feel. I ordered stuff from Jackson's in London. I don't know if you know them. Oh, okay. We've got Jackson's in Darwin. It might be a different way. Oh, maybe. They have a Canadian's online store, so they charge me in Canadian, but they're in London. Yeah, okay. So that's something to look at. I don't know, maybe not people you're looking for, because I'm more free. In terms of paper, I go to the Japanese paper place in Etobicoke, which is the suburb of Toronto. And I just was sent a paper that I love, slightly sized, thick. So that's the only place I know how to get it. But when it comes to Jackson's, I usually get blocks. The discounted sheena, that's kind of crap, but I still get it anyway. You know, things like that. And my point is I find that when you find a place that you like, you tend to want to stick with it, you know? Yes. But it must be different when you're on the move and then staying and rooting in a place for a while to have to kind of reshuffle everything. Yes, that's true. And yes, the last couple of years I've, you know, for personal reasons, I've had to come back and forth here a lot. And it's only on this last trip where I've been here for a number of months now that I've just tried to set myself up so I can do even, you know, some small size makuhanga. But yeah, you suddenly realize how much you, you know, what a luxury you have with your studio. And then suddenly you don't have that studio. So you've got to, you know, get back to basics really. So it does take a bit of time and energy to do that. Yeah. You say luxury. You say luxury. It's interesting because, you know, mokimokanga is a luxury in a lot of ways, right? Just a simple act of being able to make. It's so powerful. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. What kind of what are you making or using these days? I use Chinat. Or did these recent years for Matsumura would like. So, yeah, we did have, again, with the COVID and with the shutdown of Matsumura's website. There was an issue there, again, with supply, which I'm not sure has still really been resolved. I'm not quite sure. But I, you know, I had some stock to keep going. There are other sources of wood in Australia. Not quite the quality. It's shinner on the top, but the inside wood is not as great. But, you know, it's entirely usable. It's just not as luxurious again. The wood from Matsumura would like. I haven't actually purchased any wood so far here in the UK. I've just brought a few sheets over with me. So, that was ready to go. Matsumura is open now internationally. It's the shipping that kills me, so I can't order. Yes, absolutely. The shipping is an absolute killer. You're right. It's impossible. I guess I'm not going to spend $30 on Chinat and $90 for shipping. That's absurd to do to me. Yes. It was the same for the paper ordering the paper. Then basically, whatever I was spending on paper, then I would have to double it for the shipping. Definitely a supply issue there. Previously, we did have a supplier for wood in Australia, which are used in the early workshops. But the inside of that wood wasn't Chinat. I think it was Cowry Pine. And then on the inside, though, it was the MDF. Oh, yeah, no good. So, yeah, then I got wind that that was incredibly unhealthy. I think it's actually banned in the States. So, yeah, that was a no-goer. That's also the thing. You got to kind of keep an eye out on what you're carving and how you're carving it and what's in it. We lived in an age where everything's bad for you. Now even in my wood I'm cutting. Anyway, it's unfair. But, yeah, have you used harder woods before? No, I haven't. I've only ever used Chinat. Even in Japan? Yes, even in Japan. I've never used cherry wood. So, yeah, I mean, I'd love to have a crack at cherry wood sometime if that's the right terminology. But, yeah, obviously, yeah, no, I just use the Chinat. I have used some cheaper woods just from the DIY shops here in Darwin just as a different kind of background block. Or if I want to varnish on the block, I would use that kind of cheaper wood. But it's not good wood for carving. Right. Yeah, I can understand that. Yeah, you got to use what you can, right? That's the most important thing. You talked about the ochres and you talked about learning these different pigments. Is that where are you now with your pigments? Are you making your own pigments? Are you buying pigments? On my last trip to Japan, I bought a supply of pigments. And they're pretty special. So, I kind of use them for certain projects. I use them recently for my Darwin Harbour project because there was a lot of blues and greens and I bought a lot of those kind of pigments. So, I still have some of those in stock, which I'll pick and choose. I won't use them all the time. But most, yeah, most of my printing at the moment is with gouache, a brand that we can get in Australia. And I've used that for many years. I'm quite happy with the results and the use that I get with those. Yeah. Do you buy them on anything or are you using them straight out of the bottle? No, just use them straight. Yeah, I don't add any binder. Yeah. How has that evolved your colour palette over time? Well, with the pigments, I guess I can get some, yeah, different hues, which is why I was using it with Darwin Harbour, because I wanted to use a lot of, obviously, dealing with water, a lot of blues and greens. So, I felt that would give me what I was after. It would give me a lot more variety than just sticking with the gouache, which would have its limited palette. So, in that respect, yeah, it was good to have the pigments on hand as well. Your time in Scotland, you said you want to make some small works. Anything thematic that you're interested in right now, any themes? Well, it's a bit of a funny one because I was actually supposed to be involved in, well, I am organising a group showing Darwin in April, which is with other long-term local artists who I have various connections with. There's an area near to where I live called the Adelaide River, and my husband runs crocodile tours along that river. So, he offered to take me a group of artists out for however many trips we liked, with a view to just responding to the river, whether it's the crocodiles, the bird life, the plants. And we went out with a couple of local scientists, a bit of local botanist, a local entomologist along the river as well. So, there's quite a nice crossover in exchange of ideas and knowledge for that. But, yeah, then I had to come to Scotland. So, it's a little bit of a weird one because I'm kind of looking at images of rivers and crocodiles, but I'm sitting in Scotland trying to... A crocodiles of Scotland. Yeah, well, I head around that one. But apart from, yeah, that one, because I have been coming back and forth, and again, where I am in Scotland is a very rural area, and I've been looking at this lot of farmland around here. We just down the road from a farm. So, I've been looking a lot at the landscape. I've been looking at the sheep. And also, because I'm coming back and forth so often, I feel like I'm experiencing a lot of different seasons in a weird kind of way. You know, getting to the point where I don't, whether it's summer or spring, and then I'm bouncing back to winter. And, you know, suddenly I'm in the wet season in Darwin, but then I have to come back to, you know, the different season in Scotland. So, that's been kind of swimming around my head, thinking about these different landscapes, the different seasons, the northern hemisphere, the southern hemisphere. You know, we have the opposite of winter and summer in Australia to the UK. So, I have a range of ideas, like, say, swimming around my head at the moment with a view to doing some works around that theme. Whether, you know, kind of having a sense of disconnect, I guess, of not really knowing where I am right now in terms of those seasons and living in two different places, traveling, you know, huge distances on a regular basis. So, whether that will come through in the next lot of artworks, I'm not sure. But definitely something seasonal, shall we say. Because you have to make work somewhere. Or your studio, I mean, you were taught waxing, poetically earlier, about your studio in Darwin, and how, you know, where you are now. How does it, how do you, have you kind of carved a little studio for yourself or some place to work as mokangas? So, you know, one of its perks is that it can be kind of made quote unquote anywhere, which is true in many cases. How are you adapting to that? Yes, I have kind of taken over a little room down here in the cottage, which is basically a room for storing tools and the washing machine and the freezer. And so, that we said that it's got quite a lovely outlook across the field. So, it feels fairly quiet, but then I can be also on hand for the daily realities of life, which call me at the moment. So, so I'm getting that. It's just quite a process. But, you know, I've got my table, I've got my woods, my papers arriving next week. Yeah, nice. So, yeah. I live in an apartment. And so, when I put my laundry, I like to print during the laundry time because it gets humid in here. So, I closed the doors in the windows and it gets, I took the door off for the laundry areas. So, it just gives off heat. Oh, right. So, it gets a little bit more humid, especially when it gets cold outside. So, I don't know. I don't know. I just get the adaptation of it, right? I don't know how much it does, but it's something. I don't know. But it's like... The natural humidity. Exactly. Well, they do have my laundry. But I guess the adapting, you always constantly have to adapt. Yes. And I haven't got to this stage yet where I'm printing, but it will be very interesting to see how the printing goes here, because now I'm used to printing in a tropical environment where we have to make all sorts of adaptions to that environment, to the humidity, to the dryness, to the moldiness, to the heat, none of which I'm going to have here. So, yeah, it's going to be quite interesting to start printing here. Yeah. Well, I hope everything works out. I'm sure it will. Thank you. My final question for you is, one I've been asking guests lately, is why is Mokahanga important? This is an open-ended question, because there's no wrong answer. Well, I don't know if it's specific to Mokahanga, but I think art is important at the end of the day. Art is important for all of our culture, and if Mokahanga can contribute to that, then all the better. And I think what I love in recent years is the way that Mokahanga is just taken off across the globe, really. I mean, I know it's still small in the scheme of things, and printmaking, I guess, is small in the scheme of things, but even in this digital age, printmaking continues, you know, and Mokahanga continues, and I'm confident that it will, because despite the digital age, people still want to enjoy tactile things. They want to enjoy creating things. They don't want to be, you know, in front of a screen the whole time. They actually want to enjoy using the hands. And I think that's also what gives me pleasure the last few years. I've just been doing, rather than collaborating with professional artists, I've just been teaching community classes to adults who just want to do something at the weekends or in the evenings. And I get immense pleasure from that, because they get immense pleasure from it. You know, I've taken that time out and doing something that is essentially a very classical technique that has been adapted, has spread across the world, but is accessible still to people. Yeah. So. Why do you like teaching? What is it about teaching that you enjoy? Because you do workshops, you do also teach Mokahanga. The teaching that I do now, I enjoy, because there's no pressure, I guess, to produce something that's quite a lot of pressure when you're working as a collaborating printer with a professional artist. You know, you have to be really working to produce some top quality work, and you have to work well with the artist that you're working with. You have to establish a connection very quickly, and you have to understand what's going on in their head and what they want to achieve, and you have to help them achieve that. Which is wonderful work, and I enjoyed it very much, but now I just enjoy teaching people who, like say, they just want to come in for the weekend, and if at the end of that weekend they're walking away with a Mokahanga Prince, or a couple of Mokahanga Prince, that they can take home and show their family, or, you know, stick it up on the wall, a picture of their little doggy, whatever it may be, giving that pleasure to them, that's what makes it pleasurable for me. And also being able to introduce a little bit of Japanese culture, you know, because Japan was part of my life for so long, and I love Japan, I love the culture, and so being able to share a little bit of that culture of Mokahanga, Vukioe, and brings me a lot of pleasure. Thank you, Jacqueline. Thank you so much. Thank you, Andre. Thank you very much. That was great. I appreciate your time. I know that you're busy, and thank you. Thank you for agreeing to do this. The unfinished print is a popular reproduction, written, produced, and edited by Andrews Erosni. If you're able to, please support the podcast by giving a review and rating. You can also support the unfinished print and my own Mokahanga through my Instagram page at Andres Erosni Prints. Any questions or concerns, you can reach me through email at theunfinishedprint@gmail.com. Also, I'd like to thank all of my guests, past and present, for taking the time from their busy lives to have a conversation about Mokahanga. Without you, there wouldn't be the unfinished print, so thank you. Thank you very much. (gentle music)