The Pink Smoke podcast

1974: Fifty Years Later / Deadly Weapons

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It's time to talk tits.

We're joined by the peerless Wendy Mays to discuss softcore porn impresario Doris Wishman's breastacular Deadly Weapons, the story of Chesty Morgan hunting down a cadre of creeps and killing them with her massive 73 inch bazooms in a kind of brain-damaged, sleazy The Bride Wore Black knock-off. It. is. a. delight.

1974 was a landmark year for film, a convergence of exciting international cinema and the original voices of New Hollywood that still resonates 50 years later. In our new series we invite a different guest for each episode to choose a 1974 movie to talk about, ranging from giant blockbusters to minor cult curios and everything else in between.

The Pink Smoke site: www.thepinksmoke.com

John Cribbs on X: x.com/TheLastMachine

The Pink Smoke on X: x.com/thepinksmoke

Christopher Funderburg on X: x.com/cfunderburg

Intro music: Unleash the Bastards / “Tea for Two” Outro music: Marcus Pinn / “Vegas"

Duration:: 1h 11m
Broadcast on:: 14 Aug 2024
Audio Format:: mp3

-This is the supreme court rule that these films are neither nudie nor cutie. Scarfield in the house. -I don't know why it started with Garfield another video itself. -[ Laughs ] -Well, amaze. You have to do something about that spader. I will not be able to concentrate all episode with that, man. -Got cats and so, the cats in the corner instead. -Wendy. -Perfect. -I went to look at my phone today to text you, and your number was gone again. For some reason, your contact is not saving my phone. I pulled it up, and I was like, "I know this is Wendy, and it's gone. -Take it in, Thunderbird. -I don't know. -I mean, if you hate me, just say it. It's fine if you just, every time we see each other, immediately erase my phone number. That's fine. I get it. -No. What's weird is it like it was there when I was scrolling through like this on a phone. -You don't need to be shown. -When I got to it, it, like, blooped out of existence, and I don't understand why. Like, you're in my contact list, but it doesn't come through when I get to your phone. Now I'm looking for it, because it's not showing up here. I can't figure out which goddamn one it is. -Are you sure you're just not having, like, an old man moment, or you can't figure out how to work the phone? -A hundred percent, that's it. -That's very possible, but it was like, because when I was like, "Who is this?" and you're like, "It's Wendy." I was like, "Why would Wendy's number not be in my phone?" It makes no sense. -You're telling the story like an old man who doesn't want... It's not a story for you, John. It's this, because I'm talking to Wendy. Wendy, it's great to see you. -Good to see you, as well. -Can we tell you how lazy I am? I've had this book to send to you. Do you have this book yet? -No, I don't. I didn't even know if it was a great drama book. -All right. I had it for, like, two years, and I'm so fucking lazy. I just never have sent it to you, so I got to put it in the mail for you out to get your address. -I don't even indicate drama anymore, John. You missed your chance, and that's true. -That's a bold-faced lie. -I still don't. Any time anybody talks about American TV, I'm like, "I'm so sorry. All the TV that I watched, I'm so entitled." I only watch Japanese shows and Korean shows. I don't know anything else. -Now, the position of spaters, even creepier, it's like a half days like you're here in front of it. For one second, I feel like-- -We've definitely got to move while we're doing this. -It's definitely eerie. -Go into it. -It's definitely eerie. It's distracting somehow. -More than the Garfield and the curtain window right there? -I was just thinking about that and being like, that's like a three-minute in a baby situation where it's like, "What's creeping in looking at me?" There. -We would still talk about that if it was a Garfield with the background of that movie. -Where's the spater pillow? Is there? Is that too? -Well, that one's nice. I like young spater. I'm glad you're a spater positivist, but it bums me out what happened to him. He was so fine and sexy when he was young, and now he looks like-- -It happens to us all. What do you want? -Not to me. I'm looking the best I've ever looked. That would better in the 2020 form. -I said sexy in his own way. He still has this spater charm, where you're just like, "Okay, you still fuck." This is great. -Yeah, but it's a charm charm, absolutely. -Yeah, it's a charm charm, exactly. -I think it only works on women. I think his beauty is self-evident, even to straight men when he's young, and I think for his beauty to work now, you have to be a woman, and it's one of those like, "Why is she into that guy things now that men feel?" When he's young, it's like, "Well, I get why she's into that guy. I can't compete with spater." -Who could compete with spater in this world? -He kind of gave that bisexual energy that I'm like, "Ooh, anybody can do it." -Well, I hate to switch things up from spater and Garfield. These are obviously subjects that we would enjoy talking about, but let's flash back to 1974 and talk about a little movie called "Deadly Weapons," which I couldn't wait to say the title. I don't know why I was excited to say but I should let our special guests say, and our special guest is Wendy Mays. Wendy, welcome. -Hi. Hi, guys. -So glad to have you here. -So glad to have you here. -Indy, the best. -Indy. -Out of our time, Chris, for you guys. -Well, would you add a podcast retirement? You couldn't stay away every time we thought you were out? Will you back in? -I love you, guys. I love chatting with you guys. It's always a good time. -Have we always had you on to talk about books? Have we talked about movies with you yet? -No. Well, no. Well... -No, it's Pet Sematary and Farrell and the Highsmith book. Yeah, it's always been... -Yeah, yeah. So there's movies that go with each one of them, but it starts with books, I feel like, right? -That's true. That's true. Yeah, we'll sneak like sleepwalkers in there, but yeah. -Yeah. -First time we were focused, solely focused on a film, 50-year-old movie from 1974 about chesty morgans, deadly weapons. And let me just ask Wendy, why did you pick this one of all the films from 1974 to talk about? What was the big draw? Oh, I love this movie. So I discovered Doris Wishman in a trash cinema class that I took in college, and I feel like that class kind of veered my personality in a certain way, where I was like, "Oh, my God, these movies are so magical." Wait, you're allowed to talk about them and not be, you know, like, take them seriously in a weird way and talk about them in an educational way, and not just like sit there, you can do both. You can like have fun and laugh at these movies, but also like, they are important cinema. And like, deadly weapons was, I remember the final paper that I wrote for that class. I wish I still have it, I don't. But the final paper I wrote for that class in which the teacher let me cope. Keep her copy of the Scum Manifesto because she let me borrow it for the paper. And then she's like, "You should probably keep this." But it was all about how the larger a woman's breasts are in a film, the more evil she's prepared to be. And this was one of the films that I kind of used with that, even though I don't think she's necessarily evil. She's getting revenge. She's the hero. This movie is just a bright one with this. Right, exactly, but I don't know. There's something about, I just, I love, A, I love women killing people in films. And then B, I like it when they use like, something only females can do in killing film. You know, like, she's mothering these men to death with her breasts, with her crazy breasts that all the men in the movie are gonna oogle over. And just be like, "Yeah, do you wanna oogle them? "Well, they're gonna kill you, I'm sorry." And as somebody that has big breasts and had like, had them since very young age, it's like a dream scenario to just like, kill women with big boobs. So, I don't know, I just, this movie, I just love it. It's so much fun. It's like such a, a trashy, great exploitation movie, but it's just, it's so much fun. - It's, have you ever committed breast to side Wendy? - No, I have not. - You expect, you don't answer that question. I'm your lawyer, don't answer that question, Wendy. (laughs) - No, I was gonna, I have to admit that one of my notes, very, I'm very sad to tell you is that there is no single filmmaker, I would say, who has produced a more ludicrous set of academic writing at odds with her actual work, the Doran Squishman. And for you to immediately bring up school, and I've been learning about her in school, it's like, "Yeah, that checks out." For some reason, she is, and she's very easy to place in a context of very similar films being made to these type of movies, and what she does, that she's very much of the genre. She doesn't defy it in virtually anyway, that I can identify, but people fucking love to write about her in academic settings. And I think-- - They do. I think, you know, I think it's one of those things where like, she would hate it because of this reason, but you know, you're just like, she's kind of this oddity of like a woman working in this male-dominated genre, like even though she was just like, whatever, I took this up because like my husband died, and I needed to make money for my family. Like she wasn't a feminist in any sort of realm, even though she was when you actually taught, like hear her speak about things, the way she speak about things, you're like, "No, that's like a feminist perspective." She'd be like, "No, I'm not for female lip," like whatever, who cares? Like if you can do the job, you should be able to do the job, you should get paid this, and you're like, "That's exactly what female lip is about." But like, you know, so anything-- - So she's such a like a Bronx tough cookie lady when you hear her interviewed. She's such like a like, no bullshit Bronx born, you know, New York lady of like, whenever she's born from, she's born in like 1912 or something, she's born a very, very long time ago, but it is interesting what you say, 'cause I do get the same sense of her of like, she's sort of like notoriously outspoken anti-feminist, but then everything she says is like, "These men need to shut the fuck up and let me do my job, kind of lady," you know? - Exactly. And I think that she has like, I think because of how she started in like the distribution world, and then went into filmmaking, she has like an interesting eye when it comes to filmmaking, like the things that she would do was more of a practical sense. So, you know, you have all these like, rando shots, and it's because she was like, "No, just get a lot of shots." And then if I change the story during editing, we'll just do voiceover and cut away to like somebody using an ashtray or like him walking around. Like she made all these like decisions that were not happening at the time. You know, people were just setting up cameras and like filming the scenes where she was just like, "All right, I want this like a crazy angle this way, but also get a shot of some hands and get a shot of some feet." And just, you walk over there and I'll get a shot of you, not necessarily of your mouth. So if I need to ADR something, I can. Like there's all these kind of like interesting aspects that she does, but I don't know. - Kind of practical, but seem kind of weird. I mean, she's so fun and wonderful that even when you're watching, you're like, you see these close-ups on the ashtray and on the soap and the blood on the wall. And you're like, "That's interesting. I wonder why she cut to that." And then you'll read somebody say like, "It's because she's trying to disrupt the male gaze." And you're like, "Probably not." - No, no, that wasn't the reason at all. - Right. - Not at all. You can read that into it. I mean, it's just like Texas Chainsaw Massacre where you can just like read so many things into that film. And then you're like, "At it's essential, it's a fucking gore film." Of like, you know, like it's a slasher film flick. Like, yeah. - Exactly, exactly. - It's reading about the media industry 100%. But you know, it's a slasher film. You know, it's just, it's one of those fun things that I love kind of, I love doing those readings on movies that you're just like, "It's probably not what they like." But you know what? It's fun to think about things that way and it'll make me sound smarter if I say things like that. - So take people through the plot of this movie just real quick who haven't, who haven't heard of it. - Oh, okay. So we have Chesty Morgan for those that don't know, Chesty Morgan, much like her name, even though she's billed as Jaja in the film. It's my first question. She's already Chesty Morgan. But I hear Jaja's like her stripper name. It's like, she's already Chesty Morgan. Why does she have to be Jaja? - Yeah, I think as Jaja was like her, I don't know if it was her stage name or if it's just the name that she used in films. Like, I am not quite actually sure. - I believe it was the name that she started working under her stage name was Jaja. And then she switched at some point to Chesty Morgan. Somebody told her like, you'll sell more tickets if your name is just look at my tits, essentially. So that's what she changed it to. - I mean, they're probably wrong. That makes sense. - Yeah, a bunch of stuff. But Jaja was the name of my childhood dog growing up. Jaja, that's what I think of when I see you. - You get reminded of Jaja during this movie. - You get a little wispy eyed about Jaja. - Jaja was a beautiful like French poodle-y mutt that I love that dog, outdoor dog, didn't like come in near the house, just like living out in the yard. And that's a pinceless, free yard. - I'm realizing now the movie needed a pet. That's the one flaw that needed a pet in there too. But sorry to disrupt it. Wendy, go right in. - Oh, sorry. - No, it's okay. What was I gonna say? - Oh, so the main star, of course, is Chesty, who has a very large breast. What is it, 72 inches? Her measurements are 72, 32, 36, I believe, is what it's advertised as. So-- - AKA a dream come true for Chris Funderberg. (laughs) - They're like honestly though, it's painful. Like any time she's on screen, you're just, you feel the pain of her. - We're like, we'll get into that. We'll get into that for sure. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. (laughs) I got a lot to say about, I think I didn't the most to say about how she's portrayed in this film with her cleavage. - But the basic plot of the story is that she is a, what is it, an advertising executive who has a gangster boyfriend. - She's like Don Draper. - Yeah, exactly. And her boyfriend is a gangster, a bit of a gangster. - Named Larry. - Named a little Larry. - You're so strong, Larry. - Who looks great for pushing 40, as he says in the film. You know, the man is clearly probably in his 60s, I want to say, or it was just the 70s and everybody looked like shit. (laughs) But, so he's a bit of a gangster and steals a little black book that he shouldn't have, gets killed, and then she then ends up taking revenge for his killing by going through all the gangsters that were responsible for it, including, do we do the spoiler alert here? - Yes, that's fine, absolutely no worries. - The spoiler alert at the end, it's her father, that is the gang leader and the top notch and ends up killing him and then he kills her. - And the end. - I can't imagine anybody would be upset by that spoiler since at the end I was like, "Who is this character again?" (laughs) Why do they keep showing the thing on his hand? Is that supposed to be a scar? - Yeah, but it is, it is essentially the plot of "Bride War Black," where a woman is going around her husband gets murdered and she goes around and murders, in turn, the four or five people who did it, leading up to her own ambiguous sort of ghostly death and that, so very, very, that's a good pitch though. - "Bride War Black," which I see Morgan. - Or "Kill Bill" to the TikTok crowd, right? (laughs) - There you go, I don't remember. - He didn't see "Bride War Black," John, famously. And Doris Wishman, talk a little about Doris Wishman as well. What do you want to talk, Wendy, what do you want to talk about? - I feel like I talked a lot about Doris Wishman already. I don't know what else there is. I mean, I just think she's, she's amazing. Like, I love that like she had, like in the recent years that, what, like, Agra and Criterion Collection have all kind of like decided that you know what the world needs to see her films, 'cause I feel like for a long time, I mean, I get, you know, I went to college like 20 something years ago. So, like to me, I was just like, nobody's ever heard, and then you'd talk about these movies and like, nobody's ever heard of her. And I feel like it's great that she's kind of getting her recognition now. She's still alive, isn't she? Or did she? - She's passed away. - She's passed away. - But she has passed away, right? - She's still alive. - Chesty's still alive. That's who I looked up and I'm like, oh shit, she's still-- - Living in Tampa. - Yeah, exactly. I was like, oh shit, she's down in Tampa. Let's go find her. No, let's not, let's leave the poor lady alone. But yeah, like, I don't know. She's just, for all of her dues, like always, she didn't never made money off of these movies. So, it's great that they kind of got their, while she was still alive, got their due. - Well, it's one of those things like, thanks to John Waters, right? I mean, he's the one who was like, you know, championing these movies for years and years and years until everyone caught up and said, oh, well, John Waters says it's great, then, you know, we gotta put it on the criteria in general. - Yeah, like, I mean, this one and deadly weapons and secret double agent, what is it, double agent 73? - Double agents 73. - Are both in secret. - The sequel. - Where they close all of the loose ends left over from this movie, double agent 70. You kind of walk out of this movie thinking, wow, what's next? What's next and they close enough? - I do love the secret camera and the boobs. That's a great, that's a great gimmick. I mean, she, the Doris Wishman was like, the queen of gimmicks, right? Like all of her films like started with like the nudist camp things, great gimmick. You know, went into like nudie cutie kind of things, great gimmick. Found Chesty Morgan and was like, you know what? She's a money maker, let's gimmick gimmick it. And like, you know, went on to do other things that she was just a gimmick queen. She knew what would sell and she's trying to, especially when this one came out like, like I think Deep's throat had come out. So like, she's competing with these like art chic porn films. And she's like, how do I make money? 'Cause I don't want to make a porn. Like that's not my thing. I don't, she was kind of awesome. - Although she did, she did make a, she made a pair of hardcore pornographic films that for many years she denied making, but she did end up in that. That's one thing that I want to talk about later is like how intertwined her career is with like the history of sex exploitation cinema and how like you can see what happens with sex movies like over the course of her career in a really interesting way. Like how she sort of follows through that flow that I guess a lot of people in that industry are. Was it, did you, had you first heard of this? You said in college, John, you are the other big Doris Wishman fan that I know. Was it through John Waters that you got, that you heard about this? Is that how you came door? - Absolutely. I remember seeing the Letterman interview he did where he talked about his fan who worked at the White House and smuggled him into the White House for a tour and how he was a gigantic Doris Wishman fan. So all he did was talk about the Chesty Morgan films. So that's definitely the first time I heard about it. But what I didn't know much about Chesty Morgan though before sitting down to watch it this time herself. That's why I asked about the whole Yajah connection and everything. But what I kind of, I know we don't talk too much about like background and biographical stuff on the show, but I was kind of struck that both Doris Wishman and Chesty Morgan lost their husbands at an early age. Chesty's husband was murdered in a Brooklyn robbery when she was in her twenties, leaving behind two daughters and leaving her all by herself. And of course, Doris Wishman is, Wendy mentioned already, you know, her husband had a failed heart attack at 31. And then she had to kind of move into directing just as a way to like make ends meet. So the fact that they got together and made a movie about a woman whose boyfriend is murdered. And you know, she kind of finds her agency by going and avenging it in some way, makes it a little more profound. And you know, maybe I'm starting to sound too much like an epic guy. - No, no, no, no. - Forcing things on this movie. But that for me like was interesting to find out. It just kind of made it a little bit more poignant than I expect. - Yeah, they both have a weird reflected lives in that sort of way. Also, they both retired to Florida. Wishman was living in Florida when she passed away. They both moved down there. It just feels like they're somehow very spiritually reflective of each other. But Chesty Morgan's life was fucking tragic. She was a. - Oh, my God, close up. - Yeah, her parents were killed in the Holocaust. She was a Polish Jew who was a concentration camp survivor. And then her oldest daughter, her husband got murdered in a robbery, as you mentioned. And then her oldest daughter. - Her second husband died too in a car crash. - Yes, and she didn't know that. - Yeah, but it was after they were divorced. So is it more or less? - Yeah, I think they were still really good friends. - Yeah, you're absolutely right. And then her oldest daughter died in a car accident too. So it's just like her life sounds impossibly fucking hard. And that's before you even factor in the back pain that she must have suffered from. - Well, that's the thing that really struck me about a performance of this is the sadness. She just seemed so down, so much of the time, even before Larry gets wiped out, just that scene in the shower, which I'm having such conflicted feelings watching this. Like, do I feel enticed by this? Or do I feel really, really sad? Because she just looks so alone and despondent through so much of the film. And again, maybe that's just why I'm thinking like, well, is it what was behind this? Like, what kind of misery must Chesty Morgan have in a regular life that she brought to this set? - Well, but also-- - She just is so medicated. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - It's not just like everybody else, like you said, has such high energy in the film. And then she's just, I wanna say, it's like almost the one thing that doesn't quite work about this movie, it's just 'cause she, but it does in its own weird way. But you're just like, she just like looks so painfully stiff. And like, I'm just like-- - She looks at the camera constantly too. She's constantly looking at the camera, which I find charming. But that contributes to the stiffness. It just looks like she doesn't know what she's doing in front of the camera and is very nervous to be there. So the one scene where she does like her stripped he is in the club, you go, that's the movement where I'm like, oh, I understand her appeal finally, where she's completely in her element. And like dancing and doing her stage act, I'm like, oh, I get what this person is now. The other scenes it feels to me like, what you're saying, like stiff and uncomfortable, medicated, miserable looking person. - But even in the dance scene, it seems like she stands there and does like this, like with her arms raised, like she has to have them that way for, you know, her breasts to move in a certain way. It's not like, you know, obviously, you know, Roger, Roger. Russ Meyers, the obvious comparison to these movies. And in those films, you know, is, you know, well endowed women are just shaking it like, you know, they mean it, like they just like, they can't stop. Even when they're, you know, doing things I have nothing to do with stripping or seducing. They're just, they're out there strutting and dancing. And it seems like the exact opposite of that where it's like, she feels so isolated and trapped in a weird way. - Yeah, I was gonna say, the dancing scenes, like when I was watching them, I was thinking, I was like, okay, well, this is what she's known for. She's a burlesque dancer, she's a stripper. Like, this is where she's gonna come alive. And I was still just like, oh, honey bear. Like, but that it caught that one actually, her stiffness works because she's supposed to be this like regular Joe lady that isn't used to this lifestyle and isn't used to doing these things. So her stiffness in the moves actually works 'cause it's like, oh, it's her first time doing these things. Of course she's just gonna go, you know, I do these like weird pivots to make her boond shake and her just kind of like weirdly tugging on them. And I was like, okay, that actually kind of works in this scene, but she should be doing better because this is what she's known for. - With her like arm stretched and like gazing up, it's almost like this holy thing. It's so much like a strange thing. - Yeah, like it was almost like a manos kind of like, oh, this kind of thing. - Maybe it's because I have a lower bar. - But the other scenes like she's incapable of acting and performing in the other scenes, I would say. I would say it's not just that. She's also clearly, look, she's also clearly being terribly directed by a director who's standing off camera calling out random things for her to do and giving her no sense of what should be happening. And she has a very particular terrified actor look that's recognizable and hearing Doris Whitman's process of what you're saying and other things I've read. It was a lot of like, okay, here go and do that. And it's their almost semi-emprovised film. Some of the times they're working without scripts. A lot of the times they're working without script. She doesn't, she's sort of famous for not articulating to the people in the movies what they're gonna be doing. So they're just out there filming without even knowing what the overall plot of the movie is. And she, some of the, not that the other guys in the film are great enough, but she seems in particular like hopeless in this movie and sort of hapless, you know? And those scenes at least where she's dancing, it's like, okay, you know, I get it now. Like I understand those other scenes are like, it's hard to look at all of it. Although these sort of early, the newty cutie genres are a sort of, they have not aged well in terms of sexiness. They're definitely movies that you watch and you don't go like, oh man, you'd go like, oh gross, just the entire time while watching, you know, the nudist camp films and these sort of early soft course. - Especially when they get Larry in his speedos. - It wasn't even a speedo, it was just him and his tidy whiteies, like wandering around and you're just like, ooh, I don't need to see that. I'm sorry, my friend. - Larry rings I'll take, but like, other get Larry? No, we don't need to see that. (laughing) - But yeah, to get into, yeah, how uncomfortable she looks in the movie where it's like, does Chesty Morgan in her regular life have no clothes that fit? I mean, is she always just spilling out of everything, you know? - Okay, so I was watching the Agua release and they were talking about like, they were actually talking about that and I read an old article with Doris Wishman from this like magazine called like, incredibly strange films or whatever, from the '80s. And like, I guess her and Chesty Morgan did not really get along, like they were not, she was like, Doris Wishman was like, yeah, she was pretty tough to work with blah, blah, blah, blah, but in one of the commentaries for this, they talk about Chesty Morgan, her stipulation for the film was like, I guess she never got there on time because she was allowed to wear her own wardrobe. One of her things was, is like, I get to dress myself. So everything you see in there is her own wardrobe and I'm just like, girl, like, I get it, like you got the big boobs, it's hard to find fitting clothes but at the same time, I'm like, nothing is fitting you. Like, it's just spilling over, which, okay, but then like the other things that she's wearing were like, it's like, there's not one scene where she's wearing like this white dress, which kind of looks okay on her, but then it's shot from the back and I'm like, oh, it's not zipped up all the way, like she couldn't zip it all the way. Like, it just doesn't fit her that way, okay, you know? So it's all her own wardrobe in the movie, which is amazing to me because I'm like, while I was watching it, I was like, oh, she is dressed just terribly. - Yeah, it's amazing here was not a stylistic choice. - A red with white like polka dot shirt, that just looks like it's like a tent. It's like, is this like what her idea of like what a normal shirt is, is what I felt like watching where it's just like, yeah. That's very shocking to me. It felt like she was dressed up in clothes without any thought put into them, you know? - I'd say her was- - Like her haphazard. - Anytime she was sleeping and it showed her like, she was wearing like her night gown that was fully open. So of course, like, I mean, you have to 'cause to show her boobs or whatever. But then it would be like a full shot of the bed and there's like, no sheets on the bed. There's like, you know, the fitted sheet. But then there's like, for blanket, I think she was just using her like chiffon robe for blanket and I was like, what is this? This is the most random thing. Like, did the people whose house this was, which I think it was the editor's house, just not want her in their bed. She's like, don't dirty these sheets up, girl, with your big titties. Like, no, no, no, you gotta wear it, just wear your outfit in the bed. - Well, it is also the era of STUDs of like crabs where like there were actual physical bugs on people who had a, you know, STI problems. So maybe that's, maybe that's part of, you know, I'm not sure I would want Chesty Morgan in my bed. - Although I don't think she was necessarily like- - Sure, Chris, are you sure? Well, hold on. I don't want her in my bed without me in the bed. (laughing) But I'm glad you bring up the sleeping, Wendy, because like, again, just like a, just this culmination of like the sadness and the clothes and just the way she moves. Like she seems like sometimes she can barely walk from one like one point A to point B. And I think that might have just been like trying to hit her mark or whatever. But the fact that we see her in bed three or four times in the movie, just like sleeping on her side, she seems almost like it's debilitating to have those breasts and lying on her side like that. All I could think was the elephant man. Like the way he had to sleep, like, you know, because he has a giant head, this poor woman has to sleep in this way exactly the same way every time because of her giant breasts. - Yeah, and I also kept thinking again as somebody with big boobs. I'm like, yeah, when you lay down flat, they just slide to each side of you. And I was like, I could see her consciously trying to like cup them up so that it would be like, yeah, let's not-- - There's so much of this, yeah. - I'm gonna be flat-chested if I lay on my back because they'll just slide to either side of me. So you can kind of see her trying to like prop them up so that they would be like sexy in a weird way, kind of thing. Now it's like, oh girl, I feel you on this, it's rough. - It is so surprising to hear that like, door squishman wasn't like, we're small clothes to go with your performance. And she's like, yeah, these are just the regular things I have to wear all the time. - Yeah. - Oh, wow. - That does talking about the bed does remind me though, one of my favorite things in this movie where she's having the nightmare, right? And it does the like, you know, like the Mad Max style wake up from a dream to like the close up of his eyes. She does the waking up from the dream to a close up of her boobs, which I think is incredible. And it also like, it's only semi-emfocused. So it's like, was this even on purpose? You know, that this is like the way she's waking up from the dream sequence. But it's- - Well, she bolts up from the bed too from the nightmare and like, it just goes right into the close up of the boobs. So she's- - That's exactly, that's what I'm talking about. Yeah. - But you know, there's also from the flashback it fades right into her chest too. That's what you're talking about. - No, I'm saying when she wakes up in terror rather than seeing her sweaty, panic-stricken face, it's just she wakes up in terror and it's a close up of her boobs. - Yeah. - You see the terrorized boobs, the nipples show it all. - Well, it's just like the audience is asking, are the boobs okay? Are the boobs gonna be okay? - I mean, honestly, the boobs were like my favorite character of the movie because like anytime she was trying to show emotion, it just focused on her boobs. Like my favorite shots of the film are when she's like crying at the window sill. And it's just like, A, the best fates here going down her cheek. But then it just zooms in our boobs that have their own tears on them. And I'm just like, oh, that is such a beautiful shot. I love it. Thank you for showing the emotion of the boobs. Like the boobs always have the emotion where like her face wasn't showing it. - You know what my boobs are sad, Larry's dead. My favorite- - My boobs are sad, Larry's dead. - My favorite shot is of course, when she takes out her guns and there's the boring sound effect. Of course that's what you're waiting for. It's very, it's like fucking looney-toon style, like boring. - I like that anytime she killed somebody, she did the whole like whatever like grizzly bear stance. But then it sounded like a bowling alley kind of sound. Like it sounded like, and I was like, oh, that's rad. There's a great sound effect to go with the killing boobs. It's just of a fucking bowling ball hitting a bunch of pins and it's great. - That's definitely something like an academic would read into it. Like all these close-ups of the boobs and it's like equating this is like her face or like these are like where her emotions are coming from like the center. This is the center of her, but it's like, I'm sure Doris Wishman was like, you need to have 75% boobs in this movie. So if you do as many shots as you can. - Yeah, if you make up the movie, you have to show the boobs as much. - That reminds me, John, we were talking about this before we recorded. Wendy, did you see her on Conan O'Brien with Roger Ebert, the clip of that? - No, I was gonna look it up. I didn't have enough time. I just said heard about it through that commentary. So I was like, oh shit, she was on Conan. I need to check it out. - It's interesting because he's clearly being pressured. Like he doesn't want to be doing the interview at all. And clearly the booking person was like, you got to have like Harvey P. Carr had Crispin and Crispin Glover were on Letterman. You know, you got to do something like that. And so he's trying to end it. But the other guest is Roger Ebert and she starts talking to him at one point. And Roger Ebert says, so you made this movie with Chesty Morgan, these two movies. I have to ask you, the only reason people want to see these movies are to see her boobs. Why do you have her clothed the whole movie? And it's like, what the fuck is this guy talking about? Like, what is going on? - I mean, it kind of makes sense 'cause, I mean, Roger Ebert-- - But she's naked the whole movie. - I mean, she is naked the whole movie, but I understand why he, yeah, I don't know what he's talking about because her boobs are kind of spilling out all over the place in the entire movie. - And she has like a nude scene. (laughing) - Maybe he wanted sex. Maybe he meant like a sex scene and not just like her topless kind of thing. Maybe that's what he was like. - What's one scene in the movie where her boobs are not? It's crazy thing to say. - He's coming from the rest of, I mean, he wrote, you know. - Yeah. - He wrote with Russ Meyer. Maybe he's coming from that. He's like, why is she not excitingly like jiggling them all over the place? They're just so fierce on them and they're bad. - That's so funny to hear the man who said, "I'm so disgusted at Isabelle Rosalini being nude "in blue velvet, it's demeaning to women," said about Doris Wishman. "Show us more boobs, what the hell?" - Show us more movie in this movie that is 90% boob. - Yeah. - It's like you can't, we're pretty close to maximum capacity here, Ebert. Do you, Wendy, do you, we talked about it a little, do you, it feels like the answer is no, do you find any part of this movie like alluring in any way? If it disrupts the male gaze with Chesty Morgan, which I think John and I agree that our male gaze was very disrupted by the obvious pain and awkwardness of it, is there anything, is there any part of it? I mean, do these like collection of like mooks with ridiculous mustaches and the world's grossest kissing do anything for you? Harry Reams is Mr. Pringle, is he doing anything for us? - Honestly, Harry Reams is kind of giving it to me. Like, I kind of like Harry Reams. A, because, okay, Harry Reams in this movie is like a hair breath away from Daniel Day-Lewis and like, and they're men, they must be people on. - You hold aside my said comparison and they're like the same person. It's just Harry Reams is shorter. But like him and his speedo, I was like, there's a good chest hair, we love a chest hair. - No, that's right, you are the audience for this. - That is right, you know, like them with all the hair or none of the hair, so like, yeah. - But Larry is also Harry. - Yeah, but I don't need the shoulder. - I don't need the shoulder and back hair. I don't want that, I just want the pure chest hair and maybe some Harry legs and stuff like that. Harry arms, that's great. I don't, Larry was ewy, no, no thank you. I'll play that. - That's Harry Reams to find. - This movie is definitely more appealing to women than men than I think we've determined exactly. It's, I don't know why this just popped into my head. This is very, am I going to be able to articulate this anecdote in a way that makes sense? When I was in high school, I went and saw four rooms with my friend Evan Draper and another kid and Evan's dad took us to see it. And we went and sat with Evan's dad when we're like 14, whatever that movie comes out, 15. And there's the opening sequence where all the witches take their tops off and have their boobs out, right? And Evan's dad, who was like an elementary school teacher and like a Quaker hippie type, was incredibly uncomfortable during this, right? Incredibly uncomfortable. And after we saw the movie, he told this anecdote that, and it must have been Chesty Morgan, he was like, you know, this is, this reminded me and he was like trying to like, he was like flailing his way through it. He was like, when I, in the 70s, you know, Evan, your mother and I, we saw this ad for a woman who had 73 double F breasts. And I guess you boys don't know what that is, but that's like ludicrous. So we decided to go down to the club in Sierra and it was just, we were sitting there and it was so uncomfortable. And I haven't felt uncomfortable like that since until we saw this movie again right here. And I'm realizing that must have been, it had to have been Chesty Morgan, he's talking about that they went and saw. Maybe this will all get cut. This has just popped into my head. - Just now. - Just now. - Yeah. - You know, I love bringing up four rooms on the podcast, Chris, anytime you can. (laughing) - Well, it was also just like, that was the era in which I was like notorious for like making friends, parents uncomfortable. Like the girl I was going out with, it was also like 15 or 16. And she was, I was a junior and she was a freshman. So she was below me. Maybe I was a senior and she was a sophomore. But I took, I was like, I want to show you Gédard's Weekend. This is my favorite movie. I love this movie, right? And the opening scene of Gédard's Weekend is this woman talking about this kind of like, to pray sex she had with another guy while she's sitting in her underwear, where he like made her cracked an egg in a bowl and made her sit on it, right? Kind of stuff. It's this kind of like, you know, not super to pray, but kind of weird stuff. And so I'm like, okay, I had a VHS copy of it. And Caitlin was like, well, maybe I shouldn't say her name. But she was like, well, watch it. And we sat down to watch it. And her sister walked in the room. The older sister and was like, what are you watching? She was like, oh, Chris's favorite movie. She's like, okay, I'll sit down and watch this with you. And I was like, oh no, I don't know about this. And then her mom walked in the room. They were like, what are you guys getting ready to watch? And they were like, oh, this is Chris's favorite movie. You should sit and watch it with us, right? And then her dad walked in the room with her other sister who was even younger and developmentally disabled. And they were like, we're all just gonna sit down and watch Chris's favorite movie. And at this point, I had no fucking way out of it and had to sit and watch weekend with this family who were not like adventurous cinema goers and sit through that opening scene. And the more weekend at Bernie family, you would say. No, they were like, they were like woods hippies. They were also part of this. They were also Quakers, I believe, who knew the Draper family as well. This is all in high school, it's interrelated people. So yeah, but where am I going with any of this? Guys, what am I doing? Somebody throw me a lifeline here. Though I had suddenly in my head. - We're working up to when you followed it up by bringing over deadly weapons for everybody to watch. - Exactly, exactly. - Then you're like, here's my other favorite film, right. - I had not seen this until earlier today when I watched it to do the recording. - That was your first time watching it? - This is my first time watching it. - Wow, that's impressive. - It's something, it's, it's, no, it's about what I expected it to be. You know, this genre, I just happen to know a lot of the history and I've seen a lot of the films and this sort of era of it. That's something I wanted to talk about if it's not too much me lecturing, but to place this film in context, you know, I was curious about 'cause I was thinking about, you know, how all this plays out. In 1957, right, this is, this is just to go through a history of like pornography in the United States and where Doris Wishman fits into it and where this movie being in '74, I think is kind of fascinating because it is, it's like an outlier from where things are and it sort of shows what you're saying where Doris Wishman didn't want to be involved with hardcore pornography and had a weird relationship to the genre she was in because the way the sort of thumbnail history of legalized pornography in the United States goes, that you have a pair of these famous cases in 57 Roth versus United States and Alberts versus California, which you have two guys who are essentially dirty booksellers, right, who get arrested on obscenity charges and the Supreme Court issues these rulings that say that nudity alone isn't cause for obscenity, right, that you can't throw these guys in prison just 'cause they're giving out nude material, right? That it has to meet a threshold for a sanity and they come up with a certain community standard that's basically like if the material only appeals to the puri and interest kind of thing, then it can be ruled obscene and then they go on to rule. So they give this ruling that's like, nudity itself isn't necessarily obscene or pornographic, but these guys were distributing obscene material. So they get admonished for it, they whatever their punishment is. In that same year, like a few months later, there's the Excelsior Film Corporation versus Regent, which is like the New York censorship board, right? And they had made a movie in 1954 called Garden of Eden and Garden of Eden was a nudist movie. It's a movie about, there's like a family who sort of finds themselves on a nudist colony and realize this is a really cool lifestyle and we're gonna donate a gymnasium to the nudist colony is how the film all wraps up. And this movie was ruled to not be pornography or obscene, right? Because it was, and the phrasing that they use is that it's of an educational interest. And if you see Garden of Eden, it's an interesting ruling. One Garden of Eden's really queasy now 'cause it's full of naked kids because it has this like hippie-ish like, hey, bodies are just beautiful, man. Like what are we putting on clothes on everybody for? And it seems to be, it's like made by true believers is what it seems like, right? But it's like also insistently wholesome. It's like this completely artless version of Sally Mann. Like kids are sometimes naked around the house. Who cares? We can show that and it's not obscene, right? It sort of has that attitude. But the movie is like fucking insane. It's like leave it to beaver but at a nudist colony. It's just so relentlessly like wholesome and good-natured that I feel like Regents had no choice but to rule like, this isn't pornography. When they do that ruling, you have a bunch of filmmakers like Doris Wishman go, oh, we can make nudist camp films. We can make movies set at nudist colonies and have people prancing around in the nude and we won't get charged on obscenities. So it starts the nudist camp phase of it, right? And Doris Wishman is actually interesting 'cause she was, she set one in space, right? Like nude on the moon. And that was ruled to be obscene, to have violated the obscenity clauses because placing it in a sci-fi context made the nudity no longer meet the standard or threshold for like educational purposes. - It was specifically set on a nudist colony on the moon. - Exactly. That was the idea. - They thought they covered themselves but nope, if it's on the moon, it's on clearly a fictional nudist colony. You guys are in fantasy. - Yeah, this is no longer educational. This is somehow violating that. But at the same time as this is happening because the nudist films are sort of running out of steam at this point, people aren't necessarily interested in seeing nudist flound around. At the same time, you have the switch to the ruffies. The ruffies in the mid '60s have far less nudity. Russ Meyer is obviously like the king of the ruffies but like Herschel Gordon Lewis and lots of people are making movies like this with like, you know, scum of the earth and moral Mr. T's and faster Pussycat kill kill, right? These movies have less nudity the ruffies but they are much more sexually charged. They're full of like rape and murder and sort of like on screen molestation and like sexualized talk and things that like just scared along the line. To me, the nudie cuties are like sort of insistently de-sexualized movies in a lot of cases and the ruffies are very sexual without nudity. And so the Supreme Court is trying to figure out what the fuck to do with all of these movies. And in 1964, there's actually a big case where Louis Miles the Lovers which had been made in '58 is shown at a theater in Cleveland and gets brought in on obscenity charges and this is ruled to not be obscene and this is where it has the famous, "I know it when I see it" line about pornography. Like, I don't know how to know what pornography is, the judge says in this case, but I know it when I see it. And that comes from the the Louis-Mall 1964 case. That sort of goes hand in hand with the I am curious stuff which happens in '69 where now you sort of have the floodgates open to show sexual material on screen, sex scenes on screen with the Lovers. And then I am curious, you can show naked penises and sort of the pre-sage of the hardcore stuff with I am curious which sort of rides on the back of the, both the idea that it has to be educational and that it has to be artistic like the Lovers. And that is really what opens the floodgates by the early '70s and then sort of opens the doors for hardcore pornography to come through. There's a ruling in 1973 which is Miller versus California which basically comes up with an entirely new standard for what pornography is. Are you guys super bored with listening in all of this? Is this too, is this too educational? Board out of your minds. But that's, but when that happens in '73, hardcore pornography basically comes possible. Essentially, this '57 rulings on what obscenity are, replace standards that have been in place since the 1800s, right? And then just like 16 years later, '73 they're like, what we said doesn't necessarily make sense in just producing these weird results. Like, do we have to put the Lovers on trial but let these nudie cuties, like these nudist films through, we need a new standard. And that standard basically boils down to consenting adults can exchange whatever kind of pornographic materials they want. You gotta keep them away from kids and that's about it. And so the pornographic mainstream pornographic boom happens in this time. And Dorsch Wishman is trying to figure out what to do in that era 'cause she does not wanna make hardcore pornographic movies. And these movies are existing in the wake of that context where this is a movie that is not in any way educational, that is, I think, attempting to appeal to the Peruvian interest in a pretty basic way. It's pretty art-less, but it's also not hardcore pornography. So it exists in an interesting space for that. You can sort of see, to me, you can see her trying to figure out what to do with the changes that have happened. It's like you can either make hardcore, which she did a couple times and didn't like, or you can try and figure out, is there still a space to make, quote unquote, real movies with real plots now, but that still feature Chesty Morgan and the Naked Boobs, like, is there something there for that? And I think placing that film in that context is what makes it interesting to me. Sort of thinking about this film and the context of what was happening then, if that makes sense. Are you guys taking notes, students? Glazed over eyes? Well, what you're thinking about was also interesting because Harry Reams is in this movie, and Harry Reams, very few people who be arrested for starring in a movie, 'cause he got it, so he's also part of the history of pornography and court cases and stuff like that, because he was arrested for deep, was it deep throat? I think there was a screening of Deep Throat, and he got arrested for it. He's one of the very few performers who actually had to go and fight against obscenity laws and stuff like that. He got arrested because of his signature mustache. Way too recognizable. Exactly. No, I loved it. And to be pointed out that Deep Throat is 72, so it's right before the 73 decision that completely upends the idea of what is, when there's a new obscenity standard. I love this period for Doris Wishman. It's my favorite period for her, where she really seems to come into her own at this point. I mean, I love the new to cuties, Blay Star goes nudists where she took the famous burlesque performers, kind of her original stunt casting, that would be, of course, she would do again with Chesty Morgan, but when she gets into her roughy period, I love it. I love love toy. I love the keyholes are for peeping. Bad girls go to hell. Keyholes for peeping is not really a roughy. Keyholes for-- It's from the same period. It's from the same period. Yeah, but she's trying to, but that belongs to, at the sort of tail end, the new to cutie period is very brief. A lot of people in Russ Meyer included, try and make sex comedies in like the mid '60s era, and keyholes are for peeping belongs to that. Have you ever seen any of that guy? And it seriously failed. Like, she lost a lot of money. She almost kind of quit filmmaking because of that. That moved. Yeah. She had to take a few years off to collect some more and borrow money from friends and neighbors and stuff like that to be able to film again because that movie was such a flop. She's like, I don't know. I thought it was funny, but nobody else did. I think it's funny. And you know what else is-- Any time I hear that who song on the radio? Loving for keeping in my head, I hear. Keyholes for peeping is what I hear every time. Have you guys seen other stuff with the star of that movie, though? He's like-- he's a Jerry Lewis impersonator. And it's like the most cut rate budget shit you have ever seen. It's incredible. He's worth seeking out. Forget what that guy's name is. He has a super Italian name. His name is Sammy Patrillo. I guess that's not the most Italian. But he's like-- he was a Jerry Lewis impersonator at any rate. That's funny. Yeah, but I think the '70s are where she comes into her own. As you already mentioned, did the two straight hardcore porn films, which she doesn't like to own up to. But she also makes the semi-documentary on transgender individuals. She buys the Greek films, kind of does the corpsman thing, where she overdubs these completed Greek films. And then she has her slasher film, A Night to Dismember, which is a great title, even though I dismember mom had already done that basic joke. So yeah, I think at this point, she's like, at her most, she's firing on all cylinders creatively. And yeah, so I think that it worked out for her to kind of evolve with the kind of changing climate of sex-ploitation. I absolutely think that she gets more-- this is the era of her total creativity-ness, too. I remember reading so that old article that I was talking about earlier that talked about where she was just like me and Chesty didn't get along, it's whatever. She was like, oh, what's your creative process? And the whole time, she's just like, I don't know why you guys like these movies. Which I love a filmmaker that just totally doesn't get why they have fans. Love it when a filmmaker is just like, why do people care? It's garbage, I get it. But there's not really anything to these films, but she just would own up to be like, well, I usually came up with the title for the movie first, and then would just write something around it. And I'm like, yes, just come up with the title first. And then you're like, all right, how about deadly weapons? We got to find a big titty girl. Or something like that, like these crazy ass titles. And then she's like, okay, so that can be about this instead. I just, I love that kind of just like, just off the wind till making. It's so hilarious to me. And I love that it somehow works. - It's another favorite filmmaker of John Waters, Margarita Ross, you know, she used to say in interviews, or I don't care if people see my movies. - Yeah, I love that. - I love that attitude. - I love that attitude. It's so great. Just the whole, like, whatever. You guys like it, I'm still not making money from it. So go ahead and enjoy it. - Needs nothing to me. - Yeah, I sold those right away a long time ago. So, you know. - What are your guys' favorite door-swishman titles, then? If you have to pick one or two titles, what are your favorites, John? - I'll have to go through them all. Like, I can't even say, I mean. - I love the title of the semi-documentary on transgender's, which is "Let Me Die a Woman" is a good title. - Yeah, I was just thinking that too. I was like, "Let Me Die a Woman" is a fucking fantastic title. - Yeah. - I love "Bad Girls Go to Hell" and "The Haunted Pussy" are two of my favorites. - Yeah, that's great. - "Bad Girls Go to Hell." - I mean, "Bad Girls Go to Hell." - "Bad Girls Go to Hell." - I mean, "Bad Girls Go to Hell." - Yeah. - I mean, "Bad Girls Go to Hell." - Yeah. - I mean, "Bad Girls Go to Hell." - Yeah. - I mean, "Bad Girls Go to Hell." - Yeah. - As well, I have to say. We do like it. - Because it's true. - That's true. - She does kill them with it. - Honestly, yeah. I wanted the boob killing to start way earlier in the film. Like, get it going right away. - The movie "75 Minutes Long" and the first boob killings at like 55 minutes, you're like-- - I hope that's what I'm saying. Like, there was too much Larry. Larry should have been killed off way right there. Like, then just let her go to town with the boobs. - Or even if it like really tapped into that exploitation vein properly, that sleazy strip club guy, manager, he's the first victim, right? - Yeah. - He tries to assault her and she gives it back to him. And you know, having to like, drug each one as well is like, "Come on, does she need to drug them?" Like, just go for it. - Just go for it. - Yeah. - They don't need to be, they don't need to be sneezing. - I've forgotten that she does the druging. - A lot of backseat driving here. Come on, come on, let's win this movie. - I forgot that she drugs them all too. I was like, kind of disappointed with watching that this time, I was like, "Oh yeah, I forgot." She kind of drugs them and then she kills them. I thought she just kind of seduces them all. And then it's like, "A surprise, Brock." You know, that. - Right. - That is a kind of sound effect that could be in this movie. - It is a little more methodical though when she drugs them. - Yeah. - She's not getting out of that one. She's not gonna say, "Hey." It was just things got a little intense, a little compassionate, you know? - Yeah, maybe she knows her strength. She's like, "If he tries to struggle against me, "I'm not gonna win that fight." So let me drug him first. If the fences are down, then I can smother him. - Yeah, I understand the motivation behind it, but it is tragic to see her at the end with the bull hole right between her breasts, you know? It's this tragic shot, it's very sad. - She should have killed her father with her boobs. That's how it should have been. - You want the cherry falls ending on every movie, John? - You can't kill Dad with the boobs. That'd be the little disgrace. - It doesn't have to be in the conventional way. Maybe she's using them to knock him out a window or something like that. - There's a really famous stripper. Oh, wait, no. Well, there is a lot of very famous strippers in my town, but that wasn't what I was thinking. So the shop that I work with, you don't have to put this in the show, but the shop that I work with, the next crews that they're working on is all with this comedian who I guess is famous for killing cockroaches with her boobs. - Yipes. - Yeah. - There's some positive and negatives there. - Yeah, so that's the full line, I guess, of where boobs can do. - That seems very niche to me. - It seems very niche. What can I do with these things? You know what? I'm gonna kill some cockroaches. That's about all I can do with these things. - I think if I was watching that live, I'd think, who is this for? (both laughing) - We're a bunch of rednecks apparently 'cause it's a trailer trash crews, apparently. - She's really popular, or act as popular? - I'd never heard of her before I'd know it. Then they're like, who's going on the Tammy crews? And I was like, what the fuck is Tammy? I don't know. - Wow. - Yeah, she's comedian who crushes things with her boobs, I guess. - I'm sold, I'm in. - Sure, huh. (both laughing) - Like I said, I'm all for this film, and recently I watched this Japanese movie that was all about a woman that, every time she has her period, she kills somebody because somebody killed her boyfriend. It's another, my boyfriend got killed, so I'm going to kill everybody that's involved with this. And her superpower is that every time she eats on her period, she can seduce the men and fucking kill them. And I'm like, yes. - What movies are like, the superpower? It's your period, this is great, I love it. - What movie is that, what's it called? - It's called Orgazamoriko, I believe it's called, what it's called, Orgazamoriko. It was, I loved it, I thought it was great. - Sounds like a great double feature. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it would be a good double feature actually, it's great. It's another like, you know, total sexploitation kind of thing from the 85 Japanese, so it gets weird. - That's what you would want theoretically. - Yeah. - There's something else going on though to motivate her to these murders, 'cause Larry was not worth killing for. He's not a slappener around, he's being a jerk. - But John, he's so strong. - He gave her that ring, that is extraordinary. - I forgot about the ring, you're right. - That fucking awful ring. - He wasn't even like a good boyfriend, it didn't come off cross, 'cause if the inner action between the two of them is him coming home from work and wanting to fuck her, and she's like, man, I'm tired, I don't want to. And then he just harasses her, and that's where she's like, okay, you win. - Yeah, no, it's, it's a man all right. It seems like very clearly like he, you know, spousal rape turned ambiguous consent, and so they're very unpleasant. You win, that's when she says, you're so strong, I give up. You know, and it's like, yeah, that's not the words you ever want to hear from the women. I give up. - I give up. - I give up, I give up, you win. - That's fascinating about her fingernails in those scenes. I love fingernails, like women's fingernails in movies, like Todd Haynes, like his fingernails on like in Carol, I'm just like obsessed with them. So her fingernails, I kept staring at through it to make me. I was like, oh my God, they're so good. I love fingernails. - But is this, is this Doris Wishman's masterpiece? Is this the one people should say? - I would say it's probably up there, you know? It's, it's weird 'cause she's gone through so many phases that it's hard to pick one, you know? I think bad girls go to hell, it's such a classic for what it is, that I feel like that's always the introduction movie that people get with Doris Wishman, I wanna say. Or at least that was for me. And I feel like it was one of her most famous ones. But I feel like this one definitely is finally getting it to do and I think it's one that people need to see. And then you can go on to, to see, you know, a night to dismember and stuff like that, like the other kind of, and her work is so, such a variety pack that you could literally like, just like, whatever you're in the mood for, you can kind of pick one from there. - Yeah, I would second that bad girls go to hell, feels like the masterpiece to me. - Yeah. - Love toys, my favorite. Where's it? But there's plenty to enjoy. - Yeah. - The solid filmography. - And I wish, I wish she and Chesty Morgan to finish the trilogy, Wendy, before Chris and I were texting earlier before we started the show like, oh, I hope we have enough stuff to talk about Chris, Chris texted me, I mean, we're talking tits. And I responded, talking tits? That's the third movie they should've made. That would have been perfect. What a great gimmick. - Well, I mean, later on, well, I think like, what was the movie that she made after these two? It was, was it the morals of, I forget what it was called. - The a moral three and singing three. - Yeah, but is it like the beginning of that have like a Chesty Morgan's coffin in it? - Wow. - Oh, really? It's the end of the Chesty Morgan merit. But then you're talking about talking tits. Have you ever seen chatter boxes due to all about the top of the vagina? - Oh, yeah. We've talked about that on this podcast, actually. - Oh, happy, okay, good. I love everything. That's what I was just thinking. Like something like Prevenge, if it was, you know, starting Chesty Morgan only, it's her boobs. - Yes. - Compelling her to kill people. - I somehow feel like I'm saying something fucked up and cancelable to say, I would much rather talk to tits than a box. Like I feel like, I strongly believe that. And also somehow saying something controversial. - More conveniently eye level, I think is all you're thinking, right? - I just think they'd be more interesting to me. - Or is it the scary thought that they'll have the teeth inside because they're talking and not off the computer? Yeah. - I'm scared of nine, they're a young lady. - Neither. - Well again, Wendy, thank you so much for joining us to talk about this film. Tell us where Wendy Mays is in 2024. You got anything on the horizon? It's a big project. It's amazing that anyone should know about what's going on. - Not necessarily. If you like movie trivia and you live in Atlanta, I do a once-in-month trivia and trash. So there's a couple rounds of movie trivia and then a trash movie that we go along with it. And we've started doing the bingo, a bingo with the trashy movie. So there's that, if you're in Atlanta, look at-- - Can you go to the dog movie? - No, no, I'm going to go to the dog movie. But if you're in Atlanta, go to 97 Astoria and you can catch me there once a month. Also, we still do the online movie trivia once a month as well. So if you go to movie trivia night on Instagram, I believe has always the dates. But that's kind of mainly what I do nowadays, besides just hang out and do not much. But I have my two movie nights or two trivia nights every month, so that's kind of what I do. - You're still doing the online trivia with Kevin? - Yeah, I still do the online trivia with Kevin. So that's once a month. - Cool, yeah, anyone hasn't checked that out, definitely do so. It's a lot of fun. - It's a lot harder than the in-person one. - In person one, I have to get dumbed down a lot. - I was going to say, did you recalibrate it for Atlanta? Did you have to? - Yeah, well, also Atlanta, but also just, I mean, the New York crowd were such cinnophiles that you're just like, they know more than I do. So you just have to deep dive and you're just like, I don't even know the answer to this question, but I'll ask it. And then like everybody knows it. And I'm like, how do people know this stupid question? And then like, you know, in Atlanta, A, the crowd is a lot younger. So I have to remember, oh, these people are like 20 to 30 years younger than me, I gotta start talking only about movies that were made in the 2000s because they don't know movies prior to 2000. - They're like, what's Rocky? - Yeah, 100% like I had to apologize for asking about Elizabeth Taylor the other week. And I was like, what? - I was just like, I was like, listen, I know I'm talking about an old person right now, but like, this is film history, please know it. - This is the star of the National Velvet that they're just finishing. - I named three movies, National Velvet was one of them and like giant and like another movie. And I was like, please not talking about it. (laughing) And you know, half the teams knew who she was and half the teams did. - That's crazy to me. - Yeah, like I did in my lesson when I heard John. - John, let's go down to Atlanta and dominate this shit. (laughing) Just wipe the floor with these fuckos. - Wipe the floor with us, buddy. It'll be great. - The road trip, look forward. Road trip specifically to ruin your trivia night, the way I ruined it in New York. No, I'm just kidding. (laughing) Is that anything else you wanted to say about the film, about 1974 in movies. I was John the 1974 connection. We just talked about Blood of Dracula. With Let Me Die a Woman, it was interesting. We just talked about the other guy who's most associated with early transsexuals on film with Paul Morrissey who had the first transgender stars actors on film according to most people. Although obviously, you know, Jack Smith's Flaming Creatures predates all of this, but beyond that. Anything about 74 you think of? Wendy with this to tie it into our very loosely ill-defined series? - Not necessarily except that it scares me that 74 is 50 years ago because I was born in '76 and this is just a new, another reminder that I'm one step closer to the grave. So thank you for that. (laughing) - That's the whole reason we did this. Everyone has a clear view of their own mortality. Taste your mortality in this series. - I was getting used to like, so '94 was such a big year for movies. And like, so this year is like the 30th anniversary of so many big movies, you know, that people think about. And I'm just like, yeah, that was the year I graduated high school. And now I know that I graduated high school 30 years ago. Thank you, life. One step closer in the grave. (laughing) - That's the thing. I forgot a lot more about recent movies where I'm like, "Iron Man is 15 years old" or whatever, you know, it's like it freaks me the hell out. - Yeah, it's really, it's wild. - Yeah, that was 10 years ago for some movie that like to me came out today. You know? - I mean, my job is looking at everybody's idea to make sure that we can get a tattoo. So every year I'm just like, oh, okay. So you were born in 2006, so you're 18. And then I'm like, why? That was only two years ago, right? (laughing) That was somebody born in 2006, 18 years old. I don't understand this concept. (laughing) - People for whom 9/11 was a historical event that they were about to go? - Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Like, well, yeah, no, it's weird. But other than that, yeah, 1974, you know, I wasn't born yet, so I don't have much to say, but happy 50th anniversary, deadly weapons. (laughing) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music)