[music] What you are about to listen to is a podcast produced by Philiplea Ministries. Philiplea Ministries is offered to all free of charge. However, there are real and immediate needs associated with it. If you are a regular listener or enjoy any of the content produced by Philiplea Ministries, we humbly ask that you consider becoming a contributor. You can learn more about our funding needs at www.philicaleaministries.org. Please note that Philiplea Ministries is not a 401(c)(3) nonprofit organization, and that contributions are not tax deductible. Supporting Philiplea Ministries is just like supporting your other favorite podcasters and content creators, and all proceeds pay the production bills, make it possible for us to pay our content manager, and provide a living stipend for Father David. God bless you and enjoy the podcast. [music] Lord, did Jesus Christ? Welcome back to our study of the Evercatenas. We're picking up with a new hypothesis this evening, number 18 on page 138. This is a magnificent hypothesis, especially after what we've been reading. The fathers have been stressing over and over again the importance of fasting and abstinence for the cultivation of the heart, and the cultivation of virtue and stillness of humbling the mind and the body. The hypotheses have been filled, have been replete with examples of their fasting and the stressing of its necessity, but also some of the examples that have been very extreme. And then there's the shift in this hypothesis to how it is to be practiced. What was gained through the experience in the desert in terms of the understanding of this particular ascetical practices? Not only that it is essential, but it must be embraced with restraint and wisdom, avoiding extremes. And so it's just beautifully done. And so why don't we dive in tonight? We're given a little section, again on page 138, from the life of St. Anthony to start. And Anthony, the great, when he thought about eating or sleeping, as well as the other bodily necessities, experienced an uneasiness for his thoughts were centered on the spiritual nature of the soul. So it was that many times when he happened to be eating with a group of other monks, he would at beginning, at bringing to mind spiritual food, take his leave and distance himself from them, thinking he might be embarrassed if they were to see him eating. Of course in private he ate what his body demanded, though he also ate with the brothers. And while he was made uneasy thereby, he nonetheless unconstrainedly addressed to them the words of spiritual benefit. Among other things he told them that one must give all of his care to the soul rather than to the body. Let us set aside a little time for the body so as to satisfy its natural needs, but dedicate the bulk of our time to the soul and to seeking what is beneficial to it, so that we will not be distracted by the enjoyment of the body, and so that the soul might use the body as it is serving. For this is the meaning of the words of the Savior, therefore take no thought saying what shall we eat or what shall we drink, for after all these things do all the Gentiles seek, for your heavenly Father knoweth that he have need of all these things, but seek first the kingdom of God, and all these things shall be added unto you. So as we gradually enter into this, Anthony says that the emphasis is on the soul, and even seeing the body as aiding the soul in the pursuit of sanctity, that we make use of what so often has betrayed us through our natural desires and our appetites. We make use of it by disciplining it in order to strengthen the soul. And so we humble the body through humbling ourselves in regards to satisfying the appetites, so that we give ourself and our body what is needed to sustain us, and so that we can engage in the spiritual life, but not to the point of satiation, and not to the point of becoming overly focused upon the kinds of food that we eat, or storing up food for other times, that we're most focused upon pursuing what is nourishing to the soul. This will be fleshed out certainly in the coming paragraphs, but already we see a moderation entering into the thought of the father's very early on. Number two, St. Euthymias, the great said that perfect restraint is that which keeps a man from reaching satiation, even if we feel the need to eat, and there is still food before us. This means that we should eat less than that which we feel we need. And I think in general we would all be healthier if that were the case, but certainly I think we would have an easier time in the spiritual life in the practice of fasting, of beginning by training ourselves to stop before we feel full, that often it doesn't register with the mind, that our stomach that we've had enough, and that indeed we are full, and so often we will keep eating so long as there's something before us. And then afterwards we typically feel very uncomfortable and certainly praying during those times becomes very difficult as well. And so they learn, stop while you're a little bit hungry, step away from the table before you polish off everything. And growing up, this was sort of challenging because you know a lot of my family grew up during the Depression and food wasn't easy to come by, and all of my uncles, they had this thing, clean your plate, and it should be so clean that you can just put it right back in the cover without having to wash it. And so it sort of cultivates this sense of not wasting food. And I understand that looking back now, but there wasn't that added part of just taking what you what you need, these guys all had pretty good appetites too. So what becomes clear though, I think when we move on to the life of St. St. Cletica is not only restrained, but wisdom in the practice of it, and it's beautifully written, and we don't hear enough about her and her life. And I think it's just striking, and I'm glad to see that she's interspersed in the writings of the everytinos. The Blessed St. Cletica said that not every act of asceticism is genuine, for there is asceticism, which the enemy of our souls intensifies, as indeed his disciples also do. How then do we distinguish divine and kingly asceticism from that which is tyrannical and diabolical, assuredly by its measure? Let the standard of your fasting be for all times, do not simply fast for three or four days, and then destroy the power of fasting by eating a great deal on the other days. Do not use all of your weapons at once. So as not to chance finding yourself naked in battle and easily captured by the enemy. Our weapons are the body and the soul and our soul, the soldier. One must attend to both in meeting his needs. So that there can be a tyrannical and diabolical form of asceticism, and how important that is to understand, especially in light of how the practices of asceticism has been taught in different times and ages, without this kind of wisdom and balance. Another writer to read would be St. John Cassian, I think, of those who learn from the desert fathers, and who was also a western father, he teaches with great clarity about this. But nonetheless, we're already seeing here not to fast for a prolonged periods of time, because if we weaken ourselves, we fall into that position of then gorging ourselves because of feeling starved, or of weakening ourselves to the point that we have no strength to engage the enemy when he approaches. So if you fast for three or four days, the demons can wait until you come off the fast, you stuff yourself, and then you're attacked with thoughts of all different kinds of nature. But at that point, we can do ourselves so much for fasting for so long that it's not that regular part of your day-to-day life. So what we're seeing here is avoidance of extremes, but also regularity. I thought it was interesting, let your standard for your fasting be for all times. So what she's putting forward here is that our practice of fasting should be consistent and constant for all times. There should not be this up and down practice of fasting that is so episodic that it can't take root in us and also it leaves us more vulnerable. She goes on to say, "When you are young and healthy, fast for old age and illness will come to the extent that you can put away staples that you can use when you are unable to find them. Fast with discretion and exactness, take care lest the enemy of your soul should enter in secretly by way of your spiritual work of fasting." So the enemy is, again, relentless that he will seek ways in our spiritual practices to undermine us. So we might reach a certain level where we're not falling into great sins and we've achieved a certain regularity in our spiritual disciplines and even embrace them in a very deep way. And yet he will enter into those in order to undermine us, to make us push things further, thinking, "Well, okay, if I fasted this amount, fasting for a few days longer would probably be better and we can be driven by pride to do so as well, thinking that, "Oh, if I can restrain myself for that long period of time, then I've achieved this level of sanctity and discipline and that's where he will undermine us." So discretion and exactness, she says, "Become a skilled money changer," as the Lord says, "and become well acquainted with the image of the king. For there are forged coins, and while the substance of the gold in various gold coins is the same, they differ from one another in value by virtue of the image engraved on them. Now fasting, restraint, and almsgiving are the gold, but the children of the Greeks that is philosophers and idolaters also engrave their seals on gold coins and the heretics also take pride in such things. However, you should avoid these coins as forgeries and continually watch that you are not harmed by this and do not, without giving sufficient thought, become involved in their work." So isn't it interesting, pagan philosophers, as well as other religious individuals, including heretics, will engage in the practice of fasting. It's a common religious practice, but is it genuine and is it something that comes from God? And we remember, even in the gospel, Jesus being questioned about it, because John the Baptist disciples fasted the Pharisees and the scribes disciples fasted. They wanted to know why Jesus' apostles weren't at that point. And this is where it becomes important for us to keep this passage in mind, which we've often talked about, that they have the bridegroom with them. And so this was not a time for fasting. There will come a time when the bridegroom is taken away and then they will fast. This is the new coin that is struck with the image of our king, Christ. And our fasting is to take on the shape of that form, that Christ is the heavenly bridegroom and our hunger is tied, as well as fulfillment, is tied to him. And our fasting should take on a unique form that is rooted in that reality, in our relationship with the heavenly bridegroom. Anything else, the saints who tell us, is a forgery. We might be fasting and fasting rigorously, but a big part of that could simply be, again, to satisfy our own egos, a sense of religiosity, a sense of being disciplined, or even to gain control of our bodily appetites, but not necessarily driven by the desire and the hunger for Christ. And throughout the history of the church, this has been a big struggle. And even among the desert fathers, that it becomes very easy to lose sight of why we are fasting. What is it? What is the gold coin for us? What is the reason that we are engaging in this kind of discipline? And what does it bring about for us? And it should create within us a hunger for the Lord, that we begin to make this association between our bodily hunger and our hunger for him and what he alone can provide, especially through prayer and through the sacramental life, in particular, the Holy Eucharist. So fasting becomes altered radically in its meaning for us as Christians. And I think the images that St. Clodica offers us were just wonderful. This image of a coin, and it was very well known at the time that the first thing that a king did when coming into power would be to strike his own coins with his own image. And even imposters to the throne would do the very same thing in order to justify their claims. So they would strike their own coinage with their own image on it and seek to push it into circulation. And this is why Jesus, you know, when asked, you know, one, "Pay tax the Caesar." And the answer for him is clear. You know, the coin bears his image to God. Give it to him. It belongs to him anyways, but give to God who it belongs to God. And we are the ones who bear the image and likeness of God. And so give the Caesar what belongs to him, this gold coin, but give to God what God deserves, which is yourself in your entirety because you've been struck in his image and likeness. So it's wonderful that she makes use of this and also draws our attention to the fact that there are forgeries, there are false kinds of fasting that we have to be aware of so that we don't fall into them. Because even sometimes the greatest of monks and ascetics did. Okay, any thoughts on that section before we move on to the next? Okay. Letter seat from the drawn to con. Abba Joseph asked Abba, "Pointing how one should fast." And the latter replied, "I prefer a monk to eat daily, but to eat a little so that he does not feel satiated." So again, to eat daily, but to eat little so that one does not come satiated. And eventually this becomes the practice. To fast daily, but to break the fast daily as well. And so typically they would do that late afternoon, you know, before living or right before sundown, but then they wouldn't need again until the same time. And again, trying to link in their practice the practice of prayer to the fasting, again so that it becomes relational for us, or hunger for the Lord. Abba Joseph asked him further, "Abba, when you were young, did you not eat one day and then fast for two days?" In fact, the Albert answered, "I even fasted for three and four days, if not a whole week. But all of these things, the Father's found to be severe, coming to the conclusion that it was better to eat every day, but just a little. They thus bequeathed to us the royal path of moderate fasting. For light burdens are also profitable." This is magnificent. It took me so many years even to hear about this. And I mentioned to you before, the first time I heard about it was from this Benedict in Adelbert Devogues, since passed away, but he wrote this book to love fasting. It's the first time that I ever heard about the regular fast. But here we go back to the earliest Christian spiritual tradition, and we find that through and within the laboratory, if you will, of the desert, that this is the wisdom that the Father's discovered, that to fast in extremes is dangerous and leads to pride and exhaustion, and to avoid fasting is not to cultivate the good soil of the heart. And so it has to be a regular, constant part of the spiritual life, but not to the point of weakening ourselves or making ourselves sit. So once a day, enough to satiate us so that we can do our work and so that we can pray. So it's this delicate balance of seeing the body, both as enemy, but also as necessary and necessary helper in the battle that we see that we are often weakened by it because of our appetites and desires, but it's necessary to make use of the body because of who we are to engage in the spiritual battle, that it provides us with the weapons that are needed to strengthen the soul. This was a hard lesson to learn. Again, we find stories in the Desert Fathers that constantly capture the extremes. And I think this has followed us in the life of the Church for ages, partly because we aren't often rooted in the wisdom of the fathers as we should be. Can I question? Is it kind of like almost like repetition, like, you know, like when people almost like you do the rosary processing, those come off that you're training the body and then in a way, like you don't miss it, like if you don't eat ice cream every day, you don't have one, like I can live without it, you know what I mean? So it's thinking of repetition almost, that body, like habit, you know, sins become habitual for us and they become passions when they become habitual, that we do them almost automatically. And so our response then is to practice with a regularity, the pursuit of virtue, but also the practices that allow virtue to grow within us or strengthen the soul. So the habit, the constancy, the regularity of it is more important than it being extreme. My mom has pretty good argument though for ice cream every day, you got to get, it cleanses the palate, you got to get that taste out of your mouth from dinner, so have a little bit of ice cream. Think everybody likes that, yeah, everybody likes that idea, yeah, yeah, yeah, the wisdom of the elders. All right, let's see where I leave off, okay. So even moderate fasting, light burdens are also profitable. We often think that things have to be extreme or that we have to punish ourselves in order for it to be fruitful. And I think what the fathers learned was no. It's the constancy, the regularity that allows us to have that focus that we need. And as long as we aren't pampering the body, then we all will go well and we're able to cultivate in the soul the things that are important for us without weakening ourselves too much. Okay, number two, the same ABBA said that all in moderation is from the demons. Somebody asked what page we're on page 139. So all in moderation is from the demons. So what an extraordinary statement after the hypotheses that we've looked at, that when we are tempted to extend the fast, we should see it exactly as that as a temptation. Because we can get to a point over time where we're able to do that. And this is what Attabar Devogway said. You start off moderately, you begin with one day, letting go of a meal, you let the body adjust you deep in your prayer, and then eventually you let go of the second. And we can get to a point where we reach that regularity and then the temptation towards becoming a moderate comes in. It's almost like it is with everything else, that we take what is good and we take it to extremes. And that can be true of religious things as well. And so we have to see that as a demonic provocation. Number three on page 140. There was in the desert a certain hunter of wild animals who saw St. Anthony bantering with the brothers. The elder wishing to show this man that we must from time to time show leniency to the brothers. Said to him, put an arrow on your bow and draw it taught. The hunter did just this, drawing his bow taught. And draw it further, Abba Anthony told him. The hunter drew it more tightly than the elder told him a third time, draw it tighter. But if I draw it any tighter than it should be, the hunter objected, the bow will break. Later upon the elder said to him, ending the exchange and so it is with the work of God. If I should work, I'm sorry, if I should ask of the brothers austerity beyond good measure, they would shortly lose heart. One must then, when the circumstances demands show leniency to the brothers. I always thought this came from St. Bruno, the founder of the Carthutions, and it turns out that it's far earlier, the same image. Una writes, I grew up in Ireland at the time when doctors were doctors and not pill pushers. Our doctor, O'Dolan's best health advice was to always leave the table a little hungry. Eat two. He was a good Irish Catholic too. I've found following this advice more difficult than doing a rogue fast, often 10 days or so. Yes, it can be difficult, I think, to be consistent in that, not when presented with food that, and this they were worn against, when we were presented with food that seems utterly delicious to us, not eating beyond the point of satiation, it can be very difficult. When I first moved into the oratory as a young man, we had a cook, I think I mentioned her name before Sophie, and she prior to working for the priest, she was a dessert chef at the Harvard Yell Princeton Club in Pittsburgh, and so she would make this banana cream pie and all this stuff for dessert, and but she was of that mindset, all the priests give up so much, at least they should have a good meal, and there was love behind it, but there was no sense of this, that oh my gosh, if you're feeding your priest, they're not only going to die when they're 40 from an enlarged heart by eating banana cream pie, but they're not going to be able to enter into the spiritual life with this sitting out on the counter, and so, but this image, I think, is a very powerful one, and I've used it often, and now we know it comes from as early as St. Anthony, that you have to show a kind of leniency, and especially for those who are early in the spiritual life, that if you keep pushing them harder and harder, they will break, and the best habits that I've seen pretty much on a daily basis are very careful to ask their men, does anybody need to be, to ask permission to be released from the night prayer, or something like the fast, if they're ill, or if they had been, you know, doing some sort of work because of the season that kept them in the sun for long hours, they're always very attentive to how their monks are feeling, what the monks are doing throughout the course of the day, and their particular needs, and sometimes when people get into positions of authority, they can be harsh, you know, thinking that that's their role, you know, to get people to obey by breaking their will, and there's something that's not only problematic with that, but sick about that too, because it can become something that's sadistic, whereas an habit should be the wisest of individuals, and be able to discern the needs of his men because he loves them, and because his heart is humbled, and he knows how difficult it can be to cultivate these disciplines, and so is willing to be lenient at times, understands that it's a marathon, that it's not a sprint, and if you treat it like a sprint, you're going to break your men. All right, number four. Abba Isaac once visited Abba Pulliman, when he saw him washing his feet in a little water, since he was bold before him, he said, "How is it, Elder, that so many are so severely hard on their bodies?" And Abba Pulliman replied to him, "We have not been instructed to put the body to death, but to put the passions to death. What a great line, if you underline something here, that this would be a good one, that we're not trying to kill ourselves. The discipline that we engage in and the discipline, the disciplining of the body is meant to help us overcome the passions that emerge from a lack of discipline, a lack of restraint, a lack of measure in giving the body too much." And so we discipline it, but our objective is not self-torture, not to make ourselves skeletons. Fastening can often be taken up just because summer is on the way, and you know, got to lose a few pounds, Elbeats, to fit into those summer clothes. Number five, a brother consulted Abba, I'm sorry, Samakas. My thoughts tell me, "Do not work, but eat, drink, and sleep." The elder answered him, "When you're hungry, eat, when you're thirsty, drink water, when you are sleepy, sleep." The brother departed. By coincidence, another elder happened to encounter this brother, so the brother related to the latter what Abba Samakas had told him. Upon hearing this, the elder said to the brother, "The things that Abba Samakas told you have the following meaning. When you are so very hungry, and are so thirsty that you cannot stand it anymore, then you should eat and drink. And when you have gone for some time without sleep and are tired, then you should sleep. And however you do not feel great need, you should do none of this. So when there's a need, you respond to the need. But when the need is lacking, again, not to pamper the body beyond measure. And suddenly, I think when we begin to think about this practice of fasting, the idea of fasting like the fathers becomes something that is a possibility. Even with the beginning of the practice of not eating to the point of satiation, of being able, of developing this discipline first, of taking one step in that direction, of stepping away from the table without stuffing oneself and taking portions that are human portions, rather than filling a plate to the point that it's overflowing. And I've made a little trip I mentioned once with my father to Rome. And we were sort of surprised the portions of meat is this little piece. And we were walking all day long. My dad lost 15 pounds during that trip just from all the walking. But when you sit on a meal, they give you these really modest portions. And then you begin to understand, okay, that's why most of the people over there are thin and don't have the same problem that we do. Because they're more measured, I think here, the media and the restaurants sell it. All you can eat buffets and these huge portions of meals to draw people in. And so the culture itself fosters this kind of extreme eating that's really then very difficult to back away from. Number five, I'm sorry, number six. An elder said, "There are some men who eat a lot and are still hungry. There are others who eat a little and are satisfied. The man who eats a lot and restrains himself, remaining hungry still, will have a greater reward from God than the man who eats little and is satisfied." So interesting, isn't it, that there are some that because of their size, their constitution, maybe the work that they do, that when they eat more than some others, but they still push themselves away from the table before filling themselves, whereas for others, because of their constitution, might need very little. And so the elders telling us here, the person we can't judge simply by what a person eats because the constitution might be so different that the person who is stronger is the one who's restraining himself on, again, on a daily basis. So we have to be careful when we are practicing these disciplines not to look at the other and not to question their eating habits or how much they're eating because for each person, it can be very different. Number seven, another time, the same elder said, "If your body is given to illness and accordance there with, satisfy your needs so that you do not, by chance, become ill and have to be fed by the person looking after you, thus inconveniencing him." So what good are you doing if you fast to the point of making yourself sick and then have to be attended to by another? So again, the object here is not to kill the body and nor is the object to weaken ourselves to the point that we become sick, that if we are to live, again, the monastic life or the spiritual life, then we're seeking to live it throughout the course of our life. We have to lighten that bow when it's necessary, especially when we are ill. Some monks have to be ordered by their abbot in obedience to take food at times like this. Number eight, of Abba Neteros, the disciple of Abba Siloan, it is said that he sat in his cell the top Mount Sinai and lived moderately without access as regards to spotterly needs. When he became the Bishop of Farran, however, he practiced great austerity in his daily living. His disciples said to him, "Alvar, when we were in the desert, you did not engage in such severe asceticism." The elder replied, "There I had the desert, silence, and poverty, and I wanted to look after my body in such a way that I would not become ill and have the need for that which I did not have. This, however, is an inhabited place, and there are opportunities for sinful thoughts, and moreover, if I should fall ill here, there are those who will help me so that I will not have to give up my monastic practices." So again, practicing with the kind of wisdom that it's interesting that he practices a more severe asceticism in the city, because he knows that he's going to be confronted with far more than he was in the desert. And that's sort of eye-opening for us, because it tells us living in the city and not living in the desert or living in the monastery is not reason to not practice asceticism. In fact, we might think that we should be practicing it even with a greater discipline given the things that we are exposed to, and with also the realization that, okay, we might not have to be as worried as somebody living in a cave at the top of Mount Sinai that we are going to have enough if we do get sick to be able to nourish ourselves back to health or to be able to continue to practice our disciplines. So living among others gives us some added protection on a physical level, but on a spiritual level, we have to be very careful. I think St. Francis de Sales said, you know, on a daily basis, if you're, you know, you should pray an hour a day a day, and if it's a particularly busy day for you, then you should pray two hours that there is this danger that we can fall into where we get caught up again in the things of this world in an imbalanced fashion. And so to be able to do things with discernment, to be able to see clearly not to be swallowed up by, again, the things of the world in the sense that we lose sight of God. And that's counterintuitive. I mean, I think all the years of working with students, it was so hard to try to cultivate that because there was this, you know, neurotic kind of fear and anxiety about the amount of work that they were given, and being able to fulfill it. And it often would become the excuse not to have a prayer life or a reason for not having any prayer life. And so for St. Francis's words often were very important in that regard that they need to be praying, even with greater rigor, knowing that they could be absorbed in this to the point that that anxiety and the fear often surrounding that work could absorb them. And it often does, you know, that everything falls by the wayside, including things like friendships and all that makes life normal, relationship with family, you know, the capacity to appreciate that, which is beautiful, to breathe, take, you know, breaks for oneself. They will drive themselves again to the point of being overcome by anxiety or depression. I mean, some of these schools experience suicide, you know, students killing themselves because they are failing a class and you think about, you know, when you step back and you think about, oh my gosh, you know, killing yourself because you're failing a class or would have to take it over. But that's often what it becomes. And for years, you know, I worked with multiple universities and a place like Carnegie Mellon was often the worst in that regard because they drove their students very hard. And by the end of the semester, they all look like zombies, you know, that they haven't left their room or bathed, it seemed, you know, in weeks. And because they're so absorbed and pushing, you know, through to the end. And there's something that's not healthy about that. And so I think what we can learn from the fathers in regards to this avoidance of extremes, I think it's important on multiple levels anonymous center road, I thought that it was Mother Teresa who said this about praying for two hours when one is busy. She may have said it, but I think St. Francis sales was the first I heard who said it. Saints steal from saints all the time. There's, you know, we don't foot note, you know, that's you find, you know, I've stolen from so many fathers in my homilies over the course of the years. I think it's serving expected, you know, they got it from somebody else to typically. Number nine, Abba Megathios, the younger who lived on sign was visited by one of the elders who asked him, how are you doing my brother in this desert? I fast two days, the former applied and on the third day I eat a little bread. The elder then told him, if you care to heed me, eat half that amount of bread, but daily. The brother did so and found rest. So interesting little example, it wasn't even that he was so extreme, but he was still extending it beyond that one day. So take half as much but eat every single day. Number 10, a brother asked an elder, to what extent should I fast? An elder answered him, do not attempt to go beyond what is appointed. For many individuals wishing to fulfill more than what is appointed have failed at fulfilling even the least. So, you know, those who go to extreme, those who go beyond what is appointed can hurt themselves to such an extent that they become incapable of fasting at all. Or they become some impediment to them spiritually, damage done because of the pride that they had, that they come incapable by grace of even fasting in this regular way that's been described. So we've talked before that in the West in particular, whenever a new religious community emerges and some karism comes forth that is powerful, that sort of revitalizes the life of the church. Often the founders, you know, having this karism, you know, embrace it, but it cannot necessarily be followed by all. And eventually the church has these communities develop a role to be followed. And that role has to be approved by Rome. And there is a kind of wisdom behind this because eventually, you know, that karismatically will die. And what is going to sustain that karism that is so beautiful for the life of the church beyond the life of that single individual, if there is not a kind of balance to it that is livable, you know, sometimes these founders are given these extraordinary graces and are able to, you know, live this life and bring something forward that perhaps the church is lacking. Francis, I often use as an example of the embrace of this radical poverty. But those who followed some weren't able to embrace it so strictly without some moderation to it. And, you know, there were great fights and battles over this at the time and it created great strife. And so I think the church understands, it's come to understand over the course of time that there is this necessity for moderation in order for what is beautiful to be sustained and for it to be something that really does bear fruit. Any thoughts so far on what we've read? Marine writes moderation and everything, even in moderation, right? Okay, letter D from Antiochus who we've heard from before throughout every tense. Fasting is not simply to eat only between long intervals, but to eat sparsely. The sadism is not for one to eat every two or three days, but to avoid eating different kinds of foods. That is a meal with only one kind of poor food constitutes sadism. Moreover fasting is foolish if, though one observes the appointed fasting period, when the time for meals comes around, he unrestrainedly rushes to the table and focuses his mind on the pleasure of the food found on the table. So an added little point here that the kind of food that is eaten should be modest and nourishing, but not gourmet food, that monks are not to be gourmandines, they aren't to be those who know where every best restaurant is in town. And sadly that's often the case for priests, they seem to know the best restaurants in town, probably because they don't cook often enough for themselves, but nonetheless that's often seems to be the case. But here Antiochus is telling us the fasting goes beyond not eating and eating sparsely, but making sure that we are not overly focused upon the quality of it. And there was something humbling that I was a young student, and we'd go to the soup kitchen in Pittsburgh, and we were making soup actually, and there was meat that had been donated. And it was kind of like a lunch meat kind of meat, and it was on the edge. How do I put it? Of being edible. And we asked the woman who ran the soup kitchen, is this, should we be using this? And her response simply was this is not the ritz. If it's not spoiled, we use it. And there was something humbling about that, because this was food that we were preparing and then serving for the poor in the city of Pittsburgh. And at first we were sort of struck by what she said, it seemed sort of harsh, but she knew that that's what they had to use. And they didn't have better to give it, but they give it the best that they could. And but it's humbling, then when you leave working at a place like that, a soup kitchen, and then go and get pizza together with your friends, you know, and after having worked there throughout the morning, there's a kind of inconsistency that your face with there, you know, that we never have to struggle with that. And if anything has a whiff or a scent of, you know, you know, that is starting to go bad or the meat is a little slimy in the garbage, it goes. And so it's eye-waking, eye-opening, and I think we have to look at what the fathers are saying here, not that we have to eat slimy, lunch meat, but that we don't get overly focused upon, yeah, the quality of it, the fact that we are running, like there's something unseemly about a monk running to the refractory, and like looking out over the table, you know, there can be sort of a lust of the eyes there, looking out over the table at what's there to eat, and so, you know, and groaning with the light over the muffins that were made or the bread that was made, you know, there's something that is off-focus there, and that one would have to be careful with in the monastic life, but I think also in our day-to-day life that we don't become overly focused on it as well. Any thoughts on tonight? So it's been a big shift in our approach to things, not just talking about fasting, and it's important, but else to be done. Any thoughts, concerns, comments, anybody that might have? I was just thinking maybe it's like the willingness, you know, it's maybe a lot of people do because they're like, it's like a competition, but maybe it's just in the heart, the willingness to bring these changes, and as you're willing to do it, God will meet you there. Right. I think, you know, our willingness to do it, and to embrace the grace to do it, even in the smallest measure, and showing gratitude for that grace, then it allows God to bestow upon us even more, and the only order that discipline might grow and develop within us. It's a life leap, but it's a long life. Right. And you know, certain ages were pushed into it and learned it out of necessity, and it's just not us now. We have to learn from experience and through practicing it. Like Lectio Divina, you know, the slow reading that we even do here, monks did that out of necessity, as we've talked about. They didn't have an abundance of books to go around. So if you were lucky enough to get ahold of a book from the library, you would savor it, you would memorize parts of it. You would not read through it. You would not skim it because of its preciousness, and now, you know, we can look up something on the internet in an instant, and we have no sense of really thinking something through interiorizing it, and allowing it to shape our view of ourselves, or the world. And similarly, I think with these practices of eating, because we have so much an abundance, it never enters into our minds, you know, not only that we should fast or fast regularly, but that we should be modest in what we eat. There won't be close there, as always, you know, there are a follow-up pick-up with John Clement some Wednesday. And then with Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, amen. Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us, and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil, amen. The Lord be with you, and may Almighty God bless you, the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, amen. Go on peace, thank you all, have a wonderful night, great week.
