Philokalia Ministries

The Evergetinos: Book Two - Hypothesis XVI, Part II

We begin to realize that we need much less than we imagine. We are often tempted to think that we need to pamper the body so as not to become sick or weak. It is the regular practice of fasting, we must keep in mind, that teaches us to see the intimate connection between eating and Christ. He is the bread of life and also he who gives us living water to drink in abundance. Therefore, we are to eat in a thoughtful and contemplative fashion, and to make an explicit connection between eating and the Eucharist. In fact fasting and the Eucharist shape the way that we eat. We must attend to the body, but we must also allow the body to serve us spiritually. We discipline ourselves not to punish the body as something evil but to allow everything to be directed toward what satisfies the deepest longing of the human heart.

We are not promised happiness in this world, but rather the invincible, peace, joy, and love of the kingdom. Fasting is one element that helped the monks learn to hunger for what endures.

Text of chat during the group:

00:07:29 Bob Cihak, AZ: P. 127, # 8 00:43:17 Bob Cihak, AZ: Is the Elder hastening his own death excessively? 00:48:25 Susanna Joy: When I was a girl, we fasted on bread and water on Fridays, but after awhile stopped bc virtue is harder to practice ...making it pointless if no charity is left 00:48:53 Nypaver Clan: Reacted to "When I was a girl, w..." with 😩 00:51:15 Susanna Joy: Right! The regular habit is important and the combination with prayer 00:51:57 Nypaver Clan: Reacted to "Right! The regular h..." with 👍🏼 00:51:59 Maureen Cunningham: Holy Spirit will help 00:52:54 Forrest Cavalier: Is there a #16 that was skipped? 00:53:21 Cameron Jackson: Despondency. I can get how one can transcend Judas like despair. God is so good He can forgive all our sin but despair of life itself is another thing. I’m old, my money is running out, I can’t protect my family from ever present evil, etc. God doesn’t guarantee quality of life. How do you think this through? Life is suffering get used to it?! 00:56:40 Susanna Joy: Emerson 00:56:56 Susanna Joy: Most men lead lives of quiet desperation 00:58:33 David Fraley: I think that was Thoreau. 00:59:15 Nypaver Clan: Reacted to "I think that was Tho..." with 👍🏼 01:01:28 Susanna Joy: Reacted to I think that was Tho... with "👍🏼" 01:08:10 Maureen Cunningham: How long did he live 01:14:54 Steve Yu: As a beginner, would one 16 hr fast a week be excessive? 01:15:00 Maureen Cunningham: Thank You , Blessing 01:15:31 Andrew Adams: Thank you, Father! 01:15:35 Rebecca Thérèse: Thank you🙂 01:15:35 Forrest Cavalier: Steve, start by skipping breakfast. 01:15:36 Lorraine Green: Thank you Father! 01:15:43 David Fraley: Thank you, Father.

Duration:: 59m
Broadcast on:: 22 Jul 2024
Audio Format:: mp3

We picked up once again with the theme of “loving fasting.” The severity of the desert father’s practice of this discipline reveals that love. They discovered not only how essential the body is in the spiritual struggle to overcome attachment and the order of one’s desires towards God, but also that fasting brings a simplicity to one’s life. We begin to realize that we need much less than we imagine. We are often tempted to think that we need to pamper the body so as not to become sick or weak. It is the regular practice of fasting, we must keep in mind, that teaches us to see the intimate connection between eating and Christ. He is the bread of life and also he who gives us living water to drink in abundance. Therefore, we are to eat in a thoughtful and contemplative fashion, and to make an explicit connection between eating and the Eucharist. In fact fasting and the Eucharist shape the way that we eat. We must attend to the body, but we must also allow the body to serve us spiritually. We discipline ourselves not to punish the body as something evil but to allow everything to be directed toward what satisfies the deepest longing of the human heart. We are not promised happiness in this world, but rather the invincible, peace, joy, and love of the kingdom. Fasting is one element that helped the monks learn to hunger for what endures. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:07:29 Bob Cihak, AZ: P. 127, # 8 00:43:17 Bob Cihak, AZ: Is the Elder hastening his own death excessively? 00:48:25 Susanna Joy: When I was a girl, we fasted on bread and water on Fridays, but after awhile stopped bc virtue is harder to practice ...making it pointless if no charity is left 00:48:53 Nypaver Clan: Reacted to "When I was a girl, w..." with 😩 00:51:15 Susanna Joy: Right! The regular habit is important and the combination with prayer 00:51:57 Nypaver Clan: Reacted to "Right! The regular h..." with 👍🏼 00:51:59 Maureen Cunningham: Holy Spirit will help 00:52:54 Forrest Cavalier: Is there a #16 that was skipped? 00:53:21 Cameron Jackson: Despondency. I can get how one can transcend Judas like despair. God is so good He can forgive all our sin but despair of life itself is another thing. I’m old, my money is running out, I can’t protect my family from ever present evil, etc. God doesn’t guarantee quality of life. How do you think this through? Life is suffering get used to it?! 00:56:40 Susanna Joy: Emerson 00:56:56 Susanna Joy: Most men lead lives of quiet desperation 00:58:33 David Fraley: I think that was Thoreau. 00:59:15 Nypaver Clan: Reacted to "I think that was Tho..." with 👍🏼 01:01:28 Susanna Joy: Reacted to I think that was Tho... with "👍🏼" 01:08:10 Maureen Cunningham: How long did he live 01:14:54 Steve Yu: As a beginner, would one 16 hr fast a week be excessive? 01:15:00 Maureen Cunningham: Thank You , Blessing 01:15:31 Andrew Adams: Thank you, Father! 01:15:35 Rebecca Thérèse: Thank you🙂 01:15:35 Forrest Cavalier: Steve, start by skipping breakfast. 01:15:36 Lorraine Green: Thank you Father! 01:15:43 David Fraley: Thank you, Father.

[music] What you are about to listen to is a podcast produced by Philiplea Ministries. Philiplea Ministries is offered to all free of charge. However, there are real and immediate needs associated with it. If you are a regular listener or enjoy any of the content produced by Philiplea Ministries, we humbly ask that you consider becoming a contributor. You can learn more about our funding needs at www.philicaleaministries.org. Please note that Philiplea Ministries is not a 401(c)(3) nonprofit organization, and that contributions are not tax deductible. Supporting Philiplea Ministries is just like supporting your other favorite podcasters and content creators, and all proceeds pay the production bills, make it possible for us to pay our content manager, and provide a living stipend for Father David. God bless you and enjoy the podcast. [music] Glory to Jesus Christ, glory forever. Welcome back to our study of the Abrogateenos. We are picking up this evening on page 127 of Volume 2 with paragraph 8 at the very bottom of the page. And if you remember, we've been talking these last weeks about the practice of fasting and abstinence among the fathers and mothers of the desert, and the love in particular of these specific forms of asceticism, that they began to see how fruitful they were, both in terms of deepening one's prayer life of humbling the mind and body of ordering the appetites. And it's an interesting progression here. I've been reading ahead, and we are talking about fasting in this hypothesis, and we're given one story after another about how it was practiced by individual monks at times in a very severe way. And then in the following hypothesis, they begin to talk about practicing it in a measured fashion, not going to extremes, that these particular hypotheses that we're looking at stress the importance of it, and how essential it is for the spiritual life. But then we move very quickly to discussing how it is to be done without falling into extremes, so eating a little bit every day, but not to the point of becoming satiated. So very long in the monastic life, a kind of regular fast begins to emerge, a daily fast, but no longer than 24 hours, that what they began to discover over time is that the body could be weakened too much if one would prolong the fast beyond that period of time, or one could be led into pride by the evil one. And so things sort of balance out of course time. We have to remember that the desert was very much like a laboratory in regards to the spiritual life. And so they learn from each other over the course of time and through experience. And so some of the stories that we hear will sound rather extreme as we move forward, but expect that things will sort of level off as we move forward. So don't become disturbed, in other words, when we hear some of these stories. So again, we're picking up with number eight on page 127. Abba Isaiah was once visited by a certain brother. Abba washed the brother's feet afterwards putting a handful of lentils into a pot and lighting a fire. When the water began to boil, Abba Isaiah took the pot off the fire. Abba said the brother, the lentils are not cooked yet. He replied, is it not enough for you that you have seen the fire? This too is a consolation. So that it is a consolation to know that the lentils got close to the fire to be warmed and softened up a little bit. But again, I think what we're shown in the desert father was this weariness of pampering the body or becoming attached to certain comforts. And again, for all of us, this seems very extreme, but for the desert fathers, their purpose of going to the desert was to engage in this kind of spiritual warfare, this deep asceticism that instructs us in terms of how the passions manifest themselves, how they can be remedied. But we're not necessarily to emulate the example or the extreme measures that especially some of the early monks embraced. I think we talked a little bit in the group last time that wherever, say, a new religious order that develops within the church or even within monasticism itself and its beginnings, it has to be guided by the spirit in the mind of the church. And so this is why you begin to see roles of life begin to develop and become more the norm. Because sometimes the carerism of the initial founders of even the monastic movement, Paul the Hermit, who lived in absolute solitude, Anthony, the great Markarius. So many of these early individuals went deep into the desert. The isolation was great, only coming to the monasteries rarely for liturgy, but they lived on very little. Whereas what we see emerged throughout the course of time is that the preference was for the common life in terms of learning the essentials of monasticism, of the spiritual life as a whole, that this is, again, where one learns the ABCs of the spiritual life is within the community. It's only the rare individuals that would embrace the life of an anchorite, of deep solitude, because it is kind of danger, if you remember, that one can precisely fall into extremes, or fall into despondency, and not have anybody to support them. And so we want to keep this in mind, even as we are reading these stories, that they're emphasizing for us the essential practice of the ascetic life. But again, it's to be tempered by an understanding of the human person and what we need on both a physical and emotional level as well as spiritual. Number nine. Abba John the Short said, "If the fathers of Skedis would eat bread and salt, they compelled themselves even to do this." That is to say, they did not even eat these things without restraint. For this reason, they had the strength to fulfill the commandments of God. So they had to force themselves, as it were, to eat bread and salt, that they lived in the desert. And so they needed sustenance to be able to carry out their daily obedience. But again, it was something that they had to hold themselves back from, not giving themselves again more than what was necessary to sustain them. So not eating to the point of satiation. Although bread and salt does not, again, does not sound like very much so to live upon. When you read casting conferences, there's a balance that comes forward within his writings. And he figured it out when reading the conferences, the amount of bread that they did eat daily was rather significant. So it did move in this direction. They may throw that they had enough to sustain themselves. Number 10, Abacassian related to how Abba John, the Abba of a large synobian, once visited Abba Paisius, who had lived for 40 years in the remotest part of the desert. He loved the elder very much and was able to speak frankly with him. And so he said to him, "What have you accomplished by living in solitude for so many years where you are not easily disturbed by people?" Abba Paisius answered, "Since I became a solitary, the sun has never seen me eating, nor has it ever seen me angry," replied Abba John. So what the solitaries, when living well, on having been formal, found that they could embrace a level of asceticism that really did push themselves, that they could not eat during daylight. And so they could maintain that daily fast. But to such an extent that it would humble the mind in the heart again, where one would be free from anger. And believe it or not, the life of a solitary is often the struggle would be with anger. You would think living a common life would be a place where that would emerge. But left in solitude, you're sort of left in this state on your own, again with no one to console or comfort. And the mind and the thoughts can begin to run. And if you remember the story from Cassian as well, that a monk tripping over a piece of wood becomes terribly angry at this inanimate object for getting in his way, that he still had within him this very strong passion. It's really the common life that softens the edges. And so if one is living in solitude, one has to be very aware of what's going on within the heart. And there becomes a need for humbling the mind and the body in this consistent way, because you don't have the typical things of the common life that are shaping the mind and the heart. And hopefully you've done that prior to entering into solitude. But what we see in him is that he had to have this deep fast and deep prayer in order then to overcome one of these fundamental passions that we struggle with, that our tendency is to direct that incense of faculty that should be directed at sin or the provocation of the evil one outward. And that anger can still arise within the heart, even though no one's around. And so he tells Cassian here that what he's experienced in this life of solitude was through the depth of the fasting, a freedom from even anger itself, which again can be one of the great passions of the solitary, as well as despondency, which is this kind of spiritual sadness. Number 11. A certain elder lived as a solitary in the synovium of St. Theodosius the synovia, and for 30 years he observed the following role, eight bread and water only once a week, and labored constantly, and he never left early from the church. So he maintained again this rigorous fast through all these years, but never left early from the church as well. Typically a sign of struggle in the spiritual life is the beginning of a distaste for religious services, and either to skip them or not participate in them at all, or to leave early. And so this is why this point is being made, that one of the signs of weakening in the spiritual life is again this distaste for the common worship. And I think we see it in ourselves. There are times where either through negligence or laziness, or because we're struggling with despondency, we don't want to go. We don't want to be around others, or participate in something, and at times, like the liturgy, and at times it can seem boring to us, or even frustrating to us, on a number of levels. We lose sight of what is taking place at the altar. And so this is what the monk is saying, that part of the evidence of the fruit of his asceticism is that he never, not only did he never miss, but he never left early. This is a big thing. This should be no surprise for us in the church, when people run for the parking lot, half the time after liturgy. And again, I think when the mind and the heart has been formed, to be nourished upon living waters, or upon the bread of life, that there should be this desire to linger in that love. And maybe it's the way that we celebrate it, or the way that we prepare or don't prepare ourselves, that we don't experience that. But one of our struggles, despondency isn't talked about often enough. I think we go through these periods of our life, where our heart feels like it's been turned to stone. And prayer feels like it's an impossibility for us. And to make our way forward through that is no like thing. Usually the deepest prayer emerges on coming out the other side of that. But there can be these times where we don't want to participate and lose that desire for prayer, even when it is the Holy Eucharist. And so what they're saying here is important for us, even though we live within the world. We're just susceptible to it. Number 12, it was said of Abba McCarias, that whenever he had the occasion to eat with the brothers, he set the following rule for himself. If there was wine, drink it for the sake of the brothers. But for every cup of wine, you will not drink water for a whole day. The brothers would give him wine for the sake of refreshment, and the elder would drink it with joy in order to go to himself. But his disciple, who knew about the matter, said to the brothers, in the name of God, did not give him wine. For otherwise, he will torture himself in his cell. When the brothers learned this, they did not offer him wine anymore. These stories, even in the severity of them, are at times funny to me, this idea that, okay, I'm going to enter into the joy of a common meal with the brothers. But having given myself something that's part of my role not to have, I'm going to take upon myself another discipline. This would be a great little story in terms of how Friday typically you don't eat meat. Often people say, well, you don't follow that, then you embrace some other discipline. There's been a lightning of the restriction on eating meat on Fridays, and sometimes limited to Lent, and sometimes people don't do it at all. But you're supposed to replace that discipline outside of Lent, certainly with some other form. But this is a good example of that, that he's forced out of his prayer role for a greater thing, for charity, and to be able to experience joy with his brothers. But he takes upon himself another discipline, and one that is perhaps even harder, both were hard for him to break it, but then not to drink water for a whole day as a way to, in a sense, keep himself moving forward, not to lighten his spiritual discipline for small reasons. Not that charity is a small reason, but he doesn't want to sacrifice spiritual gains or make himself more vulnerable by letting go of something, because one could be running over to one's brothers every night for a glass of wine, and quite easily. In fact, they had to be told, stop giving him wine for goodness sake. He's torturing himself because of it. So it's a good thing to remember. Don't let go of that regularity in the ascetic life. And it bears repeating over and over again that Christianity is an ascetical religion, that we exercise our faith. We're in this spiritual battle against principalities and powers, as well as against our own vulnerabilities that come through our attachment to sin that are disordered appetites. And so maintaining a regular practice is essential for us. It doesn't necessarily mean extreme, but strong enough that it's again not pampering the body that we are engaged in a spiritual warfare. And we are to train as one who's engaged in warfare. And, you know, again, we understand that with everybody else, a boxer trains every day. He watches his appetite is very disciplined. And so it is for those engaged in spiritual battle. Number 13. About Abba Mark, the anchorite, it was said that he performed the following spiritual feet for 63 years. He fasted for the entire week so much so that some thought that he had transcended human nature. He worked night and day and whatever he earned from his labor he gave to the poor. He never accepted anything from anyone to those who gave to him, he would say, "I have no need to accept anything. For my handiwork sustains me as do those who come to me for God's sake." So, you know, there was a level, as we've seen in so many of St. East and West, that there can be this discipline that develops over the course of time. Again, that seems extreme for us, but I think that the more important message is that we often need a lot less than we imagine, that in the human imagination we think that we are going to get sick. And so we often fall into a kind of hypochondria that unless we are eating so many times a day and get so many calories and are making sure that we're drinking a couple gallons of water a day, we are going to make ourselves sick or same thing with other appetite sleep. Unless we get eight hours of sleep that, you know, we're going to be so tired we won't be able to do our work again, we'll get sick. And so we can be very focused on the body, but in this fearful measure. And I think part of what the asceticism of the Father's teaches us is not only not to pamper the body, but not to let it become a source of anxiety for us, that or that we elevated above our spiritual well-being, that the body is essential in the spiritual battle. It's part of who we are. But in terms of who we are as human beings, the spiritual is of a higher order than the physical. And so we want to use our body to engage in the spiritual battle. And but we don't want to elevate it and it's important so that it weakens us spiritually. Any thoughts or comments so far? Anybody want to quit? Are you okay? Okay. All right, number 14. A certain disciple said concerning his abba that for 20 whole years he never lay down on a bed to sleep, the slept sitting on a seat at which he worked. In all these years, he ate only every two, every two, four, or even five days. And when he ate, he kept one hand stretched out in prayer and ate with the other. When I asked him, his disciples said, why was his disciples said, why he did this? The elder answered, I bring the judgment of God before my eyes and I cannot remain at rest. On one occasion, the disciple continued, the elder went out into the yard and found me sleeping. He then stood over me and wept, sang, and lamentation. Where on earth is his mind that he sleeps thus without a care. And so the appetite here becomes one of both eating and sleeping. So never laying down, never putting oneself in this full condition of undisturbed rest that one again has to be like a servant standing attentive to the master's call. And so to be able to hear and pick up the sound of the voice of God calling one to prayer or again to be like a watchman watching for the evil one's approach who's coming to steal what is of most value to us was most precious. So always sleeping in this position of being alert. In Egypt, there's one of the old cells has a chain hanging from the ceiling to which the monk would tie his, they would wear their hair long, tie his hair to it so at night when his head would bob if he were falling asleep, it would be enough to jar him awake. Some of us would be probably hairless after a very short very time. But in any case, it was again to keep himself alert so that he could pray throughout the hours of night. Again, vigils was a very, very important thing for them to break the night for sleep. I mean, sorry to break the night in one's sleep for prayer. Then it's often the quietest, again, the mind and the heart has been humbled at those times. So it's often the sweetest time for prayer. And so not only to be fast, but he fasted from sleeping and then in guarding his disciple, so seeing him enter into it so easily, he even weeds over it. And again, to us that might seem like a strange thing, but for a monk coming into the desert, precisely to embrace this life and this discipline, it causes him sorrow. Why come to the desert? Why come to this extreme environment if you're not going to enter into it fully? And I think that's true for any vocation that we might have. And it's a good thing to ask ourselves, am I entering into the life that God has called me to as fully as possible? From thinking about our baptismal vows to marriage vows or priestly religious, am I living in that from moment to moment to the fullest extent? Number 15. Another elder dwelt in a distant desert and a certain brother who visited him found him in poor hell. He therefore washed him and from the provisions that he was carrying cooked a small meal, which he gave to the elder to eat. The elder then said to him, "In truth, brother, I had forgotten that people had such refreshment as this." The brother also offered him a cup of wine on seeing which he wept, saying, "I did not expect to drink wine until my death." And so he's given consolation comfort by a brother in his illness. But we see in his response to it the depth, again, of his asceticism, that he had grown used to living meagrely, to say the least. And so to receive what was necessary to heal him of his illness, especially wine, thinking that, you know, I would not see this for the rest of my life. It again moves him to tears. And when we step back and think about this in terms of our own ascetical life, you know, would there be, you know, this kind of movement within the heart that we value and hold precious? Remember, the title, the subtitle of this hypothesis, is to love fasting. And so would we be moved to tears? And one way or another, either seeing ourselves not practice being, you know, indolent or lazy, negligent, or would we, you know, weep when somebody offers us, you know, something in abundance, thinking that we, you know, haven't experienced this for a long time. You know, is there within us this drive to give ourselves over fully to Christ and to overcome even the slightest attachment to sin that would pull us away from him? Bob Road is the elder hastening his own death excessively. This was a danger at times within the desert. So I think whether it was true, in this case, I don't know, I mean, his brother comes to his aid. But I think this is why we move very quickly in the text to talking about embracing things in a measured way that the idea is not to hate the body. And, you know, we don't want to foster a negative anthropology where we see the body as an enemy. In some ways, it functions like that for us at times and seems to torture us with its appetites. But we have to see it as also an ally. And this is where the balance has to be maintained in the spiritual life. We realize that because of our attachment to our own pleasures and needs and wants and emotionally, we're attached to things like food to, you know, help us make it through a difficult days. That while that's true, we also rely upon the body in helping us to engage in the spiritual battle. So we don't want to make ourselves sick in the practice of it. And we realize if we do so, then we hobble ourselves spiritually. You know, what is the use of limiting our sleep so much that we can't keep ourselves awake to pray? Or we hurt ourselves, our minds, our bodies in such a way that we aren't able to pray for a long period of time. And Cinfield and Mary said, you know, it's better to give the body a little bit too much than too little. And he was very much of the mindset of the desert fathers. But I think he also realized that, you know, the evil one can work on us and as rigorous a fashion to draw us into the extremes in the opposite direction, to fashion and asceticism that's in accord with our own judgment. And again, the hypothesis after this will emerge here. And in particular, St. Saint Clerica telling us that this is exactly what can can happen, that the evil one, you know, seeing this movement towards asceticism, then will draw us to the extreme. And so we have to avoid, we have to avoid both. So the short answer to your question is, I don't know about this particular monk, but it often, they did often fall into extremes. And they're put before it's put before us in an unvarnished fashion, so that we don't hesitate to look at it, that we're meant to see their flaws at times. And even people like, you know, St. John Viani, the cure of ours, you know, when he was an older man, he acknowledges that in his zeal that at times he went a little too far. Like, I think it was for six or seven years of his life that he ate a boiled potato a day. And he took them all at the beginning of the week. So you could imagine what day seven's boiled potato would look like. It wouldn't look very good. But you know, so he acknowledged both with his sleep. And he was constantly engaged in the spiritual battle, very much like Audrey Pio, you know, the demonic attack became very fierce because of the depth of the life of prayer and the asceticism. But even he acknowledged, you know, I went to extremes. And at times, perhaps injured myself in doing so. So one has to be humble in the practice of the ascetic life. And this is why spiritual guidance is always needed. It's best to have one's spiritual father or spiritual mother there to guide you along the way. Susanna writes, "When I was a girl, we fasted on bread and water on Fridays. But after a while stopped because virtue is harder to practice, making it pointless if no charity is left." That can be true. And, you know, I think, especially, and this is part of what the fathers learned is that the regular fast that allows a person to eat daily, but not to the point of satiation, allows one to fulfill the demands of charity and also the demands of prayer, one's ascetic life, that to extend a fast for a long period of time, for three or four days, you may make it through it. But at the end of that, feel overly weakened. Or, as you described here, fasting for one day a week, but on bread and water with a kind of severity where your body does not have the opportunity to adjust to the lower caloric intake, and as well as the need for deepening of prayer. This is why everybody on Ash Wednesday becomes mean and cranky. They become hangry, you know, because, you know, they haven't fasted in a year, and then all of a sudden they're fasting, and they're wondering why they're cranky and irritable, and they have bad breath. You know, it's because, well, they haven't eaten anything, and they have nothing in their stomach, and they can't adjust to it. And they give up. They give up the practice of fasting very quickly, which makes sense, because it's not to be practiced episodically, nor is it to be practiced in the extreme. It has to become a regular part of our spiritual life for us to be able to see the fruit of it. It's connection to Christ being the bread of life who satisfies the deepest longing of our heart. And so by implicitly then being connected to prayer, that fasting deepens prayer, we experience in our bodily hunger, our hunger for Christ. And so we don't want to do that once a week or once a month, nor do we want to weaken ourselves to the point that we're starving. And then Christ becomes altogether absent to us to it, because we're blinded by our physical weakness, as well as becoming blind to the other right before our eyes and the needs of others, because overly fasting can make us self-focused when we become so aware of, oh, my gosh, I'm starving to death here. So again, getting back to Philip Neary, I think that's why he said, sometimes it's best to give oneself a little bit more than is necessary. One can always scale back. This is right. The regular habit is important and the combination with prayer, right? And this is where, you know, in the hypotheses pulled together is why we have to stick with them, because this is what becomes evident as we go through them. The absolute need for the fasting, but the need to do it in the right way. Let's see, number 17. An elder said, "I have seen elders in the desert who have lived here for 70 years and have not eaten anything other than plants and dates." So many of them living very long life and within religion as monks, but not taking any meat. So living, you know, basically a vegetarian diet and very skimpy one at that. And again, this is called mind, I think, for us. What is needed for good health? Now, we probably need more than a few plants and dates for good health. But again, what is needed on a daily basis? Do we need Oreos? Do we need Chips Ahoy? Chips Ahoy were my favorite as a kid. I could eat an entire sleeve of Chips Ahoy. They're so addictive and people are like that with potato chips. I think I bought my mom a bag of what they called Fritos or Cheetos. And they have to put an addictive substance in them because you could sit, if a person wasn't cautious, you could sit there and pop one after another and eat a whole bag. And so again, the extremes that we're shown here is meant to make us question what does eating mean to me? And how does the gift of the Eucharist change how I understand eating? And what Christ says about fasting in the gospel? How does that change the way that I understand eating as a part of being a human being now? It's more because it's more than a discipline. And it's certainly not punishing the body. It's about love. And it's about experiencing hunger and desire for Christ and his love. Cameron Jackson writes despondency. I can get how one can transcend Judas like despair. God is good. He can forgive all our sin. But despair of life itself is another thing. I'm old. My money is running out. I can't protect my family from every present evil, etc. God doesn't guarantee quality of life. How do you think this through? Life is suffering, get used to it. Well, actually, there's a little bit of truth to that, a lot of truth to that last question. I think the norm that our world puts forward to us is though it should happen, is happiness. That's the norm. And it's not that we shouldn't give thanks to God and be grateful for the joys that we have in life. Relationships, friendships, the spiritual gifts as well as material gifts at times that we would thank God for them. But life in this world isn't necessarily going to be happy. And it's not happy for a lot of individuals. What we are seeking in Christ is an invincible joy. But it's not the joy that the world promises. And we're looking for an invincible peace. But it's not the peace that the world offers. If the world offers it to us and to our family members, that's wonderful. We do everything to protect those that we love and provide for them. But the reality of living in a fallen world means that we are going to experience aging, illness, diseases, failure, losing our job. Any of these things can happen. And the mind and the heart has to be prepared for that reality. Because often I think when the norm that society presents to us, you should be happy all the time. Then, of course, that does not last very long. Then I think it sets people up for a kind of despair. And even if they're not showing it on the surface, who's the author who writes about the quiet desperation? I can't remember that famous line. Does anybody have that at the tip of their tongue? In any case, often that's the reality for many people within this world. And sometimes it can lead individuals to think that God has abandoned them. Where is the love of God in the midst of this? And one has to look at the cross and point there. There is the love which conquers death and tells us that what takes place within this world does not determine our identity, dignity, or destiny, that there's something far greater that is offered to us. Emerson, most men lead lives of quiet desperation. Thank you. Susanna, you guys are great, very quick to the punch here. But there's some truth in that. You know, I think a lot of times, especially when there's a lack of faith, there can be, and even among those who do have faith, there can be this experience of quiet desperation, applauding along and life. You know, either resentful of what has not taken place, or, you know, just having given up on pursuing anything whatsoever, because one has no faith that anything deeper can be found. And, you know, often I've talked about some of the contemplatives that I've met in my life that have been the most joyful of individuals, but it's a different kind of joy. You know, they've been through sorrow and chaos and affliction, but it's a joy that at times is very clearly otherworldly. I skipped one. You say, Bob, number 16? Okay, thank you. A certain brother recounted the following. I knew an elder who lived on a high mountain and refused to accept anything from anyone. He had a little water and he tended his small vegetable garden from which he lived for 50 years without ever leaving the enclosure of his cell. The elder became renowned for many healings, which he continually performed for those who visited him. Thus did he repose in peace, leaving five disciples in that place. So, you know, part of the epistemiousness and the fasting is also to be generous towards others, to give alms to others, or not to be a burden to others. That one does a certain amount of work in order to feed oneself. So here he has his own vegetable garden. He's able to live off of that through his life, lives this very simple life, but also then heals others, is able to give himself to others out of the fruit, spiritual fruit that is gained through his ascetic life. But I think in general, fasting and abstaining is again, you remember John or St. Peter Chrysolic talks about the three legs of the spiritual soul, if you will, fasting, prayer, and almsgiving. And the fasting is really meant to make almsgiving a possibility that you eat less in order that you might be able to provide for those in need. And I've mentioned here before, you know, my mom's story about her mom providing for those during the depression, you know, the bread and jams and things like that. The times just kept people going. And so often it is those who have the least that seem to be the most generous or attentive to providing for the basic physical needs of others. And so act with a greater charity. I think in some ways are the abundance that we have as almost dulled those sensibilities within us that we become blind to the need of others, or we see the needs of others as a kind of scam, you know, and often it is that, but better to err on the side of charity. Or one would think that if one is more spiritually astute, that one would be able to discern that and be able to engage a person in the way that they need to be engaged. But nonetheless, I think, you know, having this simple lifestyle can make us more discerning of the needs of others around us. Thanks for picking that up, Bob. Okay. Number 18. Concerning a great elder who lived in the lavra of Abba Peter, it is said that he remained in his cave for 50 years, neither drinking wine nor eating bread, except for bran and that three times a week. Well, at least he stayed regular if he ate bran three times a week. And so no bread or wine. And so the monks learned to be sustained upon what they had available to them. And again, you know, the simplicity of lifestyle often leads people to be able to do that. It seemed like in a certain age, everybody had a garden. You know, my grandparents had a garden and everybody, you know, canned and did things in order to be able to provide for them for their families. It was a kind of forced simplicity, but it taught them how to live and to be able to provide for themselves and others. And again, I think in our abundance, we throw away a lot more food than, you know, people had at times like that. And so when I read these and again, it's so striking to hear the how many, you know, how limited their diet was and what they did survive on. It's like a bucket of cold water being thrown on you. You know, what do I really need? And does all that I have really produced within the mind in the heart, the kind of joy and the piece of the kingdom? Or do I experience a kind of lingering anxiety that is rooted on my being more focused upon the things of this world and protecting my security? And you know, certainly it's preached, I've talked to a lot of people over the course of time. And that is one of the great anxieties. You know, am I going to have enough? Am I going to find myself wanting if I serve the Lord? Am I going to be put in a position where I'm impoverished? And so even where there is abundance, there's often this deeper anxiety and depression, because in the end, those things can't provide what they seem to promise. And I think even really at the heart of the church, you know, has permeated the very fabric of the church that especially in the West, that there is to be this abundance, that you have to have this enormous amount of security and communities feeling that they need to raise an enormous amount of money to have that security because of the pressures of paying for health care and all these different things. And it often puts communities in this position of having that become the center of their life. I won't mention any names or anything, but I know of monasteries that they've had their external work become so successful, that is like what they are making, whether it's jams or whatever it was, become so successful that their life becomes so busy in order to fulfill all the orders that it alters their common life and the depth of their prayer life. They're overwhelmed by it. And yet there can be this drive to, you know, to make as much as possible, to provide for the uncertain future and to, you know, not to again want to find the community being diminished or having to deal with hardship. And again, I think that's this mindset, which seems very much contrary again to the gospel in its unvarnished fashion, you know, consider the lilies of the field or the birds of the air, you know, don't be anxious for tomorrow because today's evil is enough and itself to deal with. You know, it's not going to help you to be anxious about tomorrow or 10 years down the line. And yet we are, we're terrified about it rather than living today and embracing what it is that God has provided for us. And so living moment to moment, you know, certainly these, again, these stories are jarring in that, but they did. That's how they lived, you know, by the grace of God. Okay, number hypothesis number 17. So moving from this, they want to move very quickly to say, okay, be patient, that the hyperbole of some of these stories can throw a person into a kind of despair and not being able to do that. So do not fear, we're told, but rather embrace the exercise with patience, that it's no small thing to develop the capacity to fast regularly, or to pray with the regularity that we would desire as well. So from Palladius, there's known really for providing us with the little bits of the life and biography of all these early characters within the early church in the desert. So if you have a chance, there's a wonderful little volume by him, where all these stories, some of them only a paragraph or too long about so many of the different individuals that come forward in these stories in the evergatinos. Saint Markarius of Alexandria did not practice just one form of asceticism, but different kinds. That is, if he heard that a certain struggler had performed one kind of asceticism, he was eager not only to succeed in it, but also to surpass that individual. When he learned from someone that the taban nestonians, that's close enough, ate uncooked food throughout the great fast, he forbade himself to use fire and preparing food for seven years. He would eat only raw vegetables, and if he could find any moistened legumes. So if there was a competitiveness, it was in the ascetic life, that if he would hear of a certain ascetical practice, that it revealed to him that he was clinging to something that he would embrace it, and even go further than that. Again, there would be a certain danger with this, I think, in the sense of becoming prideful in the practice of it. There's a better story later on where we're told that a person each year would embrace a different form of asceticism that was focused on a particular passion. And to me, that makes more sense that one learns through experience, and there are certain practices in the spiritual life that strengthen us in overcoming the passions. And so to learn from others, and perhaps take up things that we haven't thought about embracing in our own life, for the spiritual benefit of it. Subsequently, he heard from someone else that a certain elder ate only one leetra of bread. I did look that up, it's 27 grams, which again doesn't sound like very, very much. He thus broke up the ration of hard bread that he had placed the bread in a jar, and decided to eat every day only as much as his hand could extract from it. He used to relate to us jokingly, "I got hold of quite a few morsels, but I could not remove them all since the neck of the jar was too narrow." This tax collector, that is the weakness of the flesh, does not permit me to forgo food completely. So putting food in a jar that is difficult to remove would slow you down. And again, one night say, "All right, this is extreme." But I know in my own life, one of the challenges is eating too quickly, and slowing oneself down, it can be a very important thing, to eat in a contemplative fashion. And so monks, when they would make their movement to the refractory, it's typically after a prayer, and one makes this movement in silence to the refractory. And then there's a period of waiting until the bells are run, indicating that the meal is ready. And then prayers are said, and then usually a reading, a part of a reading is done, and then the meal begins, and then reading is done throughout the meal's whole. But all this, what I'm getting to is that fosters a contemplative approach to eating, you know, and slows a person down. That often when we eat, and we eat quickly, we're eating because of our nervousness, or if we're hungry, we eat too quickly. And our mind doesn't catch up to the body until we've over eaten, and feel sick, or we've gone beyond what we need, again, to sustain ourselves. So if we learn from anything from this, you know, funny story, you know, trying to pick bread out of a little, sounds like a coke bottle, you know, trying to get, you know, a little more soul bread out with your fingertips, slowing ourselves down is a good thing. I think we all know in the West here that our portions are huge in restaurants, but also we've gotten used to that. And it's interesting, the first time I went abroad, you know, my dad and I went on a pilgrimage together, and to Rome and Florence, and I was supposed to come back and give a talk. And so I studied the catacombs, but in any case, long story made short, we went to dinner the first night we got there, and it was like 5.30. And they said, come back later, our dinner is at like seven starts at 7.30. And so that threw us off right away, because we were, you know, used to the old folks timing there. But in any case, if you order meat, it's like this little portion, and it's surprising when you first encounter it, because here in the United States, people have these huge takes, and really thick. And when you go to a meal, in someplace like Rome, I suppose you could eat excessively there as well. But the portions typically are much smaller, and it's an eye opener. And same thing with like grocery stores, you know, going to Egypt and things like that, you think goodness sake, you know, what we have here would probably throw people into shock, you know, if they were to see it. And so again, these stories, I think, are meant to slow us down, you know, literally, you know, how fast, how quickly we eat. But, you know, the time that we give ourselves to consider how much do I really need? Or is this good for me spiritually as well as physically? And remember, we've talked about eating those rich and heavy meals, how difficult it can make it to pray following them. Because your body is digesting, and the heavier your meal that you have, the longer that takes. And again, Philip Neary used to say, you should be able to go into the chapel and pray after you've eaten a meal. If you're, you know, eating in the correct way, you shouldn't immediately fall into a food coma, you know, after you've had, after you've had supper. Okay, that actually brings us to 830. But does anybody have any comments or questions or concerns about anything that we talked about here tonight? Okay, so be very patient with us here. We're moving in this direction, you know, again, to the teaching on moderation and avoiding the extremes. Okay, so it's great to be with you again, and to be in the house, have a little stability. Again, so looking forward to Wednesday as well, for the latter. So won't be closed as always with our Father, the name of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. Amen. Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us to stay our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us, and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. Amen. The Lord be with you. May I want to God bless you, the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. Amen. Go in peace. God bless everybody.