Here's another show you can enjoy in the True Story FM family of entertainment podcasts. Ever wonder what bridge is the gap between your favorite film genres, subgenres, and movements? Cinema Scope is here to explore these connections, taking you on a thrilling odyssey through the ever-evolving art of cinema. I'm your host, Andy Nelson, and in each episode, we embark on a deep dive into the forces that sculpt the world of film. From the styles you know and love, like high films, or the French New Wave, to the ones you may not be as familiar with like Turkish Yeshelcham or Brazilian Nordesterns, my expert guests and I unravel the complex tapestry of storytelling, style, and innovation that defines the world of film as we impact the myriad catalysts of change that shape these diverse styles. Whether you're a student of film, a creative professional, or simply a devoted movie enthusiast, Cinema Scope is your gateway to a richer, more immersive film experience. Don't just watch movies, understand them, appreciate them, and revel in their artistry with Cinema Scope. Subscribe today. I'm Pete Wright. And I'm Andy Nelson. Welcome to the next reel, when the movie ends. Our conversation begins. The honeymoon killers is over. You sigh a lot, don't you? In nursing school, they taught us that people who sigh a lot are unstable. Is that your problem? Dear Mother, this is the first letter of this sort I have ever written. Ray was a con man who made one mistake. He fell in love and took Martha along for the run. I can arrange a meeting with a very nice woman and woman. There's no harm in writing to somebody who's so gentle and can refine, who's sister is a nurse. Ray and Martha could have been the honeymoon lovers, but Martha's insane jealousy turned them into the honeymoon killers. You're here for my life. Get my hair in. We live on a chalk and I don't care what's going on there. Jealousy let Martha and Ray down one of the darkest paths in the annals of American crime. You're the hottest bitch I've ever seen. I don't have to take that from you. My God, instead, if you've never heard of Martha and Ray, see the honeymoon killers, then try to forget them. The honeymoon killers, Andy, we are this is part of our one and done series. Correct. What does that mean? These are filmmakers who made one film and while they may have wanted to do others, never did and so this is Leonard Castle's turn to make a film and then never goes on to do anything else. Daniel Castle directed this and very interesting first film and only film. Had you seen it before? I hadn't seen this before. I had heard of it. I think only because the criterion collection ended up releasing it a few years ago. It caught my eye, but I didn't recognize the director because again only one film. I recognized some of the stars in it. Shirley Stoller and Tony Lo Bianco are certainly faces that we've seen in many other films, but I just hadn't seen this and I think I had heard of the lonely hearts killers, but I didn't really know much about them or what they actually did. So in many respects, this was kind of my first experience with a lot of this information. So it was very interesting to jump into this film in the story. For me too, I hadn't seen it and I thought it was fascinating. The performance from Shirley Stoller is amazing and just feels very grounded in and made me at some level, worry about the actress. That something might be wrong with her because I just felt very very in tune with that performance. And it moves right along. It's an interesting story. It's a true story and I felt like it was super, super gratifying watch. I had never heard of it. I didn't know anything about it. Do you want to talk a little bit about the real story of these guys? And does it align for you with what you know about the real story to the movie? Well, the lonely heart killers, there is obviously, even though it says based on a true story, there's an element of fictionalizing within it. It is a film they obviously are going to change some things. But Raymond Fernandez and Martha Beck did go on this spree. I don't know. I guess it's a killing spree, but it's not like they're just driving around killing people. They had set up this plan essentially where he and Raymond was doing this before he met Martha, where he would meet unsuspecting victims through personal ads posted in kind of like these lonely hearts columns of these these groups that they were belonged to. He would connect with them, marry them, take all their money and kill them is basically what had happened. He met Martha and they actually ended up creating a connection and a relationship blossomed from that once, even though he told her what he had done, she was still in love with him and drawn to him. But she was originally a target, right? She was a lonely heart. Yeah, she was a lonely heart. Right. Okay. But something about that connection between the two of them, it really was love and they kind of created this whole system where they would pose as a man and his sister when they would show up to one of these women, you know, they would get the money and then she would sometimes help in the killing and disposing of the body of these different people. And so they went around and did this for a while. The spree was between 47 and 49. They killed up to 20 people. They were arrested. The story in the film is a little bit fictionalized as for the reasons. Like in the film, we have Martha feeling like kind of like she says in the beginning, like I'd rather have you in jail and me too than thinking that you're with a woman, any other woman. And so that's kind of the way that the film ends is that character turned for her as she calls the police. In real life, it was actually the neighbors who caught on to something going wrong in the house. And I think they had actually gone out to a movie or something like that. And when they came back, the police were there and arrested them and they did get executed on the same day in Sing Sing in March 1951. So yeah, it's a pretty shocking movie. And we'll talk about in the later about like all the other iterations of this story, it certainly was an interesting and kind of horrifying element of all of this. Oh, and you know, the film doesn't even touch on the fact that Martha had been married and had two kids and she had been then subsequently divorced. And then in the film, they shift the abandonment to her mother. She abandons her mother in the film, but in real life, Raymond convinces her to abandon her children. And she dumps her children, assuming with her ex and goes off on the run with him. Yeah, it pushes a lot of boundaries. That was a surprising thing in the movie. Like it's really pushing against norms that I think are interesting, even to the point of the movie poster. I know you've looked at the close up of the movie poster, but it shows her sitting on a trunk with an arm out hanging out of the trunk and he's behind her, holding her. And he's even got her fingers in her brush. He's only wearing her bra and underwear and his fingers are inside her bra and he's kissing her. And it's just it's very erotic. And for the time, I imagine hyper sexualized just as the film is sort of hyper violent for the time. It's crazy. Well, and I was a little surprised watching this film from 1970 with some of the elements, the way that they depicted some of the sexuality, some of the murder. Like it was pretty blunt and raw and brutal. I was kind of like taking a back by the way that castle, Leonard Castle, our director put this film together. Where it is that Scorsese was originally hired to do to direct this film and directed two sequences that are still in the in the movie and was too slow to actually they ever thought finished the movie. So he was replaced by I think another person and then Leonard Castle. I think it was hard to get this thing directed, but I'm curious what you think specifically to the tone. If if you feel like this is a like this has a Scorsese vibe still, or if you think it was successfully revisioned by castle to be something unique. I am curious to know what sequences were Scorsese's. I felt it's interesting because Leonard Castle when you learn about who Leonard Castle is was primarily in music. He composed operas. He was a libertist and he is an opera director and wrote operas and eventually would go on to be teaching music and everything. That was largely his focus as teaching or composing operas and then teaching. And this only kind of happened by chance, really. It's it sounds so interesting because he had been a friend of the producer. A producer Warren Steibel also produced some TV and stuff, but it was his first feature film. His friend, the producer's friend suggested, hey, you should make a movie Warren said, well, it'll probably cost about $150,000. So that's how much his friend gave him to make the movie should have asked for more. Yeah, right. He decided that he wanted to make a film about the lonely hearts killers. At the time, Leonard Castle was his roommate. And so he asked him to do some research on it and then was afraid that he didn't have enough to actually hire a screenwriter. So had Castle write the script. I mean, he really dug into the research on these killers and everything. And so wrote the script and really knew the story. And so I think because I don't know, my feel watching the film is it's very operatic and knowing that Castle comes from the world of opera. And I can certainly see how that also could be attributed to the way that Scorsese might direct some things. Certainly Scorsese can be a big director. But whatever Scorsese directed, once Castle ended up being the one who Steibel said, you know, hey, why don't you just direct this thing because we keep running out of directors. It just felt like Castle naturally fell into the rhythm of telling a story. And while it also feels very realistic to a point where it's not quite neo-realism, but it certainly feels kind of raw, real, just it feels like we're there with these people. It also is very big and bombastic with the way that the characters carry things out. Certainly some of that is the music choices. We're hearing a bunch of Gustav Mahler's opera pieces as the score to the film. But I couldn't help but like I was really impressed with the way that Castle directed this thing because it just felt like this is somebody who has a sure hand and knows how to tell a story. Yeah. Well, just to close the loop on this open question, Criterion reports that the two notable sequences that are still in the movie, because Scorsese was only on the job for three weeks. The two notable sequences that are still in the movie are the opening hospital scene. The scene features long master shots without inserts, a style characteristic of Scorsese's mature work. The first shot is a receding pan that picks up Martha with a slight zoom followed by a mobile survey of the room as Martha dresses down the staff. And the second is the Lakeshore scene. Scorsese directed the Lakeshore scene where Martha nearly drowns. Shirley Stoller insists that the fear she displayed in the scene was genuine adding to the film's raw and realistic tone. You know what? Like before knowing that, I can't say that those sequences stood out as not of the fabric of the rest of the tone. I think Castle just nailed the vibe of the film just as probably Scorsese would have too. Yeah, absolutely. And it's funny because Scorsese even admitted, you know, this would have been very early in his career. And he said they were right to fire me. I was, I just was going way too slow. I didn't have a good handle on it. Yeah. Well, it's surprising to me that we haven't seen Castle do anything else that that is the big surprise. And that's what's frustrating. And I'm sure for Castle as well, like he had, aside from his operas and stuff, had written other scripts. He has three unproduced screenplays, wedding at Kana, change of heart and Shakespeare's dog. And when he was interviewed, once once Criterion ended up releasing his film, they did an interview. He said it was very frustrating because no producer actually wanted his other scripts. All they wanted from him was another honeymoon killers, which is not what he wanted to do. And this is the situation where people get stuck in these pigeonholes. And it sounds like from reading this that Hollywood just expected him to do more honeymoon killers types of stories. And he's just like, I don't want to do that. And then they just never gave him another chance. Prince Ratch Rufo says this is his favorite American film. Yeah. That's something that is something that's some acclaim, definitely, definitely. Maybe you can die happy if that happens. I mean, it's a fascinating film. I mean, in the scope of crime films, you know, there's there's the romance of this film and there's the crime of this film. Well, maybe we should start with the romance since that's really where things start for us here. You know, we meet Martha, you talked about you mentioned kind of that opening of her at the hospital when she's working as a nurse. She's not a nice person. We meet her. She's already kind of this crass, not nice nurse as she dresses down these other nurses and everything. I was really surprised and interested that Castle would script this to have such a kind of an unlikable protagonist at the heart of the film before. You know, she starts writing these letters. Yes. And this is one of the things that's so interesting about Stoller's performance of this character too, which is the idea that this person we get to experience in stark relief, the areas in her life over which she has control. And there's really one at the beginning of the movie and that's work like she gets to be that nurse ratchet kind of, you know, control freak at work. And that's her whole universe because when she goes home, she doesn't have the same kind of relationship, she's frustrated, she's, you know, she's sort of doted over by her friend, but she doesn't want to deal with her mom. She is kind of the dark side of the kind of American dream, like she's working hard, but she just doesn't have a whole life. And that exercise between love and conflict and loneliness and desperation that drives her, like we see from very early on why she is driven toward this relationship with Raymond, because that is another area over which she can exude control and she can have, she can kind of regain confidence, which she does not have in so many areas of her life. And I think that is such a complex thing to ask of a character and it feels superhuman to me that we get to see her kind of on parade like that. What do you think? Is that fair? Yeah, I think that's absolutely the case. I think that it's, and again, going to Castle's performance, the way that he wrote this, or performance as the director, the way that he wrote the script and the way that Stoller performs this role, it just, it's so naturalistic. And she's so willing to just be somebody that you don't like. And I think, you know, that can be hard for performers to do. They want to be a character that's likable, right? And she is just really hard to like. And it's, you know, once you start that correspondence where we see that, you know, kind of the montage of letters between Martha and Raymond, where they fall in love and you really get that sense. It's like, okay, maybe we're going to have a character arc and we'll shift it. I mean, we're walking into this and I'm assuming audiences at the time did as well, knowing that this was about the lonely heart killers and so they weren't necessarily expecting. We're still really relevant. Yeah, we weren't necessarily expecting a story about people that we liked perhaps, but it's quite interesting to kind of just watch and figure out why do I like this character or why am I drawn to her because they're. There is something really interesting that you're able to connect with with Shirley or with Shirley's performance of Martha. I'm really interested to know more about what you connect with Shirley's performance of Martha. What is it that drives you to obsession and madness? Well, yeah. I mean, I just think there's something interesting about and maybe not necessarily in that opening scene, but once she kind of goes back home and you've got that scene with her roommate, Doris Roberts. In an early role, which is kind of fun to see her as the roommate in their house that she's living with her mom. She is somebody who is there for her and wants to be her friend and is trying to help her and she's the one who actually put her name in to kind of get onto this lonely hearts club mailing list. And so, I don't know, there's a moment there of this person who, I don't know, the way that I was reading her characters, like somebody who is genuinely lonely and who wants to find a connection, but feels doesn't have confidence in herself because she is overweight. She's a heavy set woman. And so there is this sense of her kind of like that fear that she has of perpetually going to feel lonely. And perhaps that's why she's so bitter at the beginning because she's just, she's not going to have that same connection and she's mired down by having to care for her mother. And so there is this sense of perhaps this is going to be a respite for her or a chance to find a better life. And I think that's what I found so interesting in her in wanting to find a connection, a genuine connection with someone. Yes, and I think it's important to kind of look at her, the way she incorporates like raw human weakness into this part because that's what you're describing at home when she's at home, she's, she's weak. And that makes her really ripe for gaslighting, right, for manipulation. And that's exactly the pattern that we see as she finally builds this relationship with Raymond as she first becomes a target and then a partner. She's a partner because she's obsessed and and has has given up or doesn't have the sort of psychological stability at that time to be able to see that she's being manipulated and that she's being turned. But there's this other piece of it, which is just human nature, like what is it in her nature that makes her susceptible to this kind of violence because not everybody who is susceptible to gaslighting is going to end up being a murderer. And being okay with that. And so I think that makes her super complicated and a really interesting character to look at. Well, and that's also interesting because there's also the side of her not necessarily being gaslit, but complicit, kind of like complicit being excited by this. I mean, when he first tells her, well, it's interesting because she's obsessed with him. She doesn't want him to leave. She manipulates him to so that she can visit him, right? Like that's what was so interesting about it is like she actually has Doris call him and does this whole fake scenario where she had tried to kill herself. You know, she's so bereft. She's on the bed and she won't speak to him and then she finally comes to the phone and like this whole thing that they stage just to kind of draw him back in. I can't help but feel like there's something dark in the way that she manipulates him for all of that that he sees himself in her. And I think that is one of the things that he is drawn to with her because the next thing that happens is he talks to her about his like when she comes to visit him. He shows her all the pictures of all the women that he's been with and he has this whole setup that that he is laid out for her. This is who I am and you still love me. Oh, wow, that's so great because she's like he's like a cat that just killed a bird and drops it at your feet. Yeah, right. Like he's proud of this but he doesn't. But what he sees in her is somebody who won't judge him when he takes the opportunity to share some truth. Right. And that's I think what was so fascinating because when you watch the film, it really is like a love story between these characters. It's a dark love story but when we get to the end of the film, it's all about the love letter that he sends to her. Like that's how the film ends. We get the final letter that he sends to her about how she's the only woman that he's ever loved and he'll always be thinking of her. And like that is the core element of this film is like these are two broken people who are totally okay with manipulating and killing people in order to make ends meet. And that's kind of our dark journey that we have here. I mean, it's such a fascinating experience. It's really interesting to hear you talk about it to talk about it that way, right? Because it then becomes it's so easy for me to look at her as the exploited one. But really this is a story about mutual exploitation. Yeah, right. Like he's he is just as under her thumb as she is his. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Gross. That's pretty interesting. And I mean, obviously there are elements that, you know, she does reluctantly because of him, like we see her leave her mother at the home for it's essentially essentially a place where you put your parents to pasture as it were. Yeah, like an assisted living. It's essentially. Yeah, I don't know what they were calling it in the in the 40s at the time, but yeah, but basically she's putting her mom here and she walks away and she. Has a single tear. So obviously she has some emotion about these sorts of things, but not enough to not do it. Yeah, right. There is remorse, but it's like lowercase are right. I mean, it's such a strange thing between these this couple because they go through some pretty violent moments and obviously he had been killing people before, you know, they, but it seems like they must have. It just must have always been like sleeping pills, things like that where they didn't have to worry about violence and blood and stuff like that because it's like hard for him when she bludgens the woman to death with a hammer and there he gets blood on his outfit. He's drenched in sweat and he's panicking because of the blood and like there's a shift in the way that they're doing stuff. And I don't think he necessarily would have ever gone the lengths that Martha ended up going bludgeoning a woman with a hammer, drowning a child. Like I don't think he could have taken the steps that she ended up taking. It's a little bit of a straight version of dirty rotten scoundrels that, you know, like it's the it's the student out out shines the teacher kind of a kind of a mode. I think you're exactly right. I think that's really, I think that's probably exactly what we would see that he is his machine of extorting wealth and killing victims is much more simple because it's rote. Like he's done it a lot and that's just sort of how he lives his life, but he has a system and she has no system and she'll just do anything to be a part of that partnership. And not just a part of the partnership, but also to some extent in a panic state afraid that he's going to actually fall for one of these other women and leave and either leave her or kill her. Well, that was a really good that's a really good point because there's so much for her that is just rooted in paranoia and fear and uncertainty because of all of the stuff we talked about earlier lack of control in her main in sort of the main threads of her personal life. Like she's once she finally gets control, she is hyper fixated on it and will do anything to keep it. Yeah, yeah, that's wild, really interesting. How do you think the look of the film supports the complex sort of emotional narrative that we're talking about here? I mean, it's very realistic. You know, I've talked about kind of that almost neo realist type of production, Oliver Wood first feature film, I believe, which is pretty spectacular solo as a cinematographer and Oliver Wood is somebody we've talked about on this show a number of times, mainly because he helmed the three born films. Part of the born trilogy and so I think that's a big part of what what he does and brings a lot to the look and I think we get some kind of interesting more hallucinatory elements when like Martha's nearly drowning things like that. But largely, I think there's just this sense of creating something that feels real, but also and I don't know, I can't put my finger on it, but there's something in this film apart from the operatic score that just makes this feel bigger and a little more operatic and I don't know if it's just the relationship and what they're doing. But there is something that just feels slightly heightened with some of the elements in here and I'd have to study it a little closer to see if some of that and some of that is the cinematography and some of the ways that it was shot. But there is something to this film that I think stands out as a little more big and bombastic. Well, I wonder how much of that is the contrast we get in the lighting, the choices around lighting, it's super motivated lighting, right? It's like often, you know, we're in a scene with real lighting sources, like practical sources in the scene and it feels very gritty and grounded and mysterious and super low key lighting. It feels, it's weird, weirdly claustrophobic, which is like counter to big and operatic, but I wonder if because of what's going on in that, in the frame, like it's that contrast that makes it feel larger than life, that makes it feel like these people can't fit in their emotions, their relationship, can't fit in the constraints of the frame. I think that would be a really interesting way to look at that by taking the lighting and manipulating in ways that are subtle enough, but you can see in perhaps operatic thinking of staged lighting and the way that you can manipulate things in certain ways to just enhance things and make them feel a little bigger without going over the top, you know, and I think that might be one of the elements that makes this stand out for me. It's also, to that same point, lots of close-ups, like when they go close on a face, it's close on a face, like I am making out with these people. And I think that sort of intimate framing, it just does more to capture these intense emotions and again, makes these people feel bigger than the movie, like bigger than the box they're acting in. Nothing exemplifies that more than that final killing of the mother before they kill the child. We've already had Martha trying to kind of give her pills and eventually trying to force her to take pills, and then Raymond comes in and they're trying to figure out what to do with the gun that she has, and you end up moving in on the victim's eyes. Their teary, her eyelashes are kind of all clinging together from the tears, and it is an extreme close-up of her eyes in panic as she's looking around trying to figure out what to do, trying to find something that she could say that would make them stop. And I think that's exactly it, that sort of cinematography and direction just really pushed this film to a place of incredible discomfort that made those scenes all the more powerful because you are completely in the victim's head as they're going through these horrific moments. Oh, so good, that's such a great point, that's really it, the movie is essentially just a big game of handoff between victim to victim for me because when we capture those experiences, that's whose perspective I immediately amplify, I immediately identify with, that's great. It's just, I mean, it's such a shocking film, the way that it keeps descending as far as their crimes, you know, they just get worse and worse. Initially, it's just like giving someone sleeping pills and she dies on a bus, not even anywhere near them. And then, you know, just whether it's sleeping pills or eventually the hammer, and then finally that pair of mother and daughter, that is just like, that speaks so highly about just how far this couple will go. And how cold Martha is, and maybe she's always been that way or maybe it drove her to this, but Raymond won't have anything to do with the kid and she's just like, I'll take care of it, you know, goes into the basement. And we also know by that point, she has learned from the woman that Raymond and she have been sleeping together and she's pregnant, so we already know there's a lot more going on in Martha's head as she's kind of figuring out her next steps. But it just goes to dark places that were really quite surprising. Yeah, especially for the, you know, for the time. Yeah, right, right. Hard to see, like, I can see this as an indie film, but perhaps it's understandable why it wasn't something released by the studios, you know? Yeah, yeah, right, right. And I guess given all of this, it's easier to see why maybe Leonard Castle is the struggle to get work outside of the genre. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I will say Tony Lo Bianco as the lead in this, you know, I know him mostly from, I mean, we talked about, I don't remember who brought him up, but way back when in the French connection, when we talked about that film in our Great Car Chases series. Certainly somebody who was very busy in TV and like it's just a face that is a regular that we've seen countless countless times up until, I mean, he just passed away last month, you know, sadly. So he's just one of those faces who is always great to see it. I just loved seeing him here as the lead. I, you know, I always, he's one of those that guys and he's always like a tough guy or a cop or something. And so it was nice to see him as the lead here. Yeah, yeah. Would you know of, of Shirley? She is another face that I was like, oh, I've seen her like, I didn't recognize her, but when I looked at her list, I'm like, oh, wow. Okay, Clute was we talked about that. She was in the deer hunter, which we've talked about is she's just been so many different things all the way up into recent films. And so she's somebody who she passed away in 1999. So just a lot of bit parts for her as well. What did she passed away in '99? What is this chief Zabu film? Did you see this? It was shot in 1986 and it wasn't released until 2016. Yeah, 2016. That feels like something we need to talk about. I want to watch this movie. Yeah, I'm trying to figure out why it took so long to get a release. It was long unreleased socio-political comedy about New York real estate developer who tries to take over a Polynesian nation due to various issues. Yeah, it was unable to complete the director and producer unable to complete it until 2016. Wow. It's amazing. The cast lists only six people, Alan Garfield, Zach Norman, Alan Arbus, Ed Lauter, Ferdy Maine and Shirley Stoller. Four of the six are listed as posthumous. It's just like that seems like a story. It's like the last movie ever made eventually they got there. Yeah, that's crazy. So you're right. I mean, she's she has been in a lot of stuff. Malcolm X, I was really surprised to see the breadth of her of her credits. Three o'clock high. Yeah, she's great. Yeah. Yeah. All right. What else you got? Anything else hot? I think that's it. So should we move on? Let's move on. All right. Well, we'll be right back. The first are credits. The next reel is a production of true story FM engineering by Andy Nelson. Music by fall staff, Ziv Grinberg, Benjamin Esterles, Oriel Novella, and Eli Catlin. Andy usually finds all the stats for the awards and numbers at v-numbers.com box office mojo.com imdb.com and wikipedia.org. Find the show at truestory.fm. And if your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show. [Music] Picture this. You're on the road miles from home with nothing but the open highway stretching out before you. Maybe you're on a cross-country vacation seeking adventure and new experiences. Or perhaps you're more like the notorious couple of the honeymoon killers. Constantly on the move traveling from town to town, wooing unsuspecting victims and leaving a trail of broken hearts and empty bank accounts in your wake. In the film Ray Fernandez and Martha back and mark on a deadly crime spree posing his brother and sister while Ray seduces lonely women, marries them, and then with Martha's help murders them for their money. It's a chilling tale of love, greed and betrayal that takes the couple around the country always searching for the next target. But even the most cold-blooded killers need to break from their nefarious deeds. When the open road starts to feel a little too lonely and the weight of their crimes begins to bear down on them, Ray and Martha surely must have craved a moment of normalcy, a chance to forget their sins and lose themselves in a good movie. And that's where our watch page comes in. At the nextreel.com/watch, we've gathered a comprehensive list of all the movies we've covered on the NextReel Film Podcast along with our other shows and our family like the film board movies we like, trailer rewind and silver linings. No matter where your travels take you, as long as you have an internet connection, our watch page is your trusty companion. We've provided convenient links to rent or purchase these films through Amazon and Apple, making it easier than ever to access the movies you want to watch. It's like having a curated video store at your fingertips, ready to provide the perfect entertainment for your next pit stop. And here's the best part, when you use the links on our watch page, you're not only treating yourself to a great movie, but you're also supporting the NextReel's family of film podcasts. Those small commissions help keep our podcasts running, allowing us to continue exploring the world of cinema and sharing our discoveries with you. So, whether you're on a leisurely road trip or a crime spree across the country, make the NextReel.com/watch your go-to destination for movies. With a wealth of fantastic films to choose from and the convenience of our handy links, you'll never be without a captivating story to keep your company on those long nights on the road. And who knows, maybe one day we'll cover a movie inspired by your own daring adventures. But until then, keep on driving, keep on watching and don't forget to visit the NextReel.com/watch for all your cinematic needs. Happy Trails, and we'll see you at the NextReel. Sequels and remakes, Andy. Oh boy, people do love their murder couples, don't they? Oh, they sure do. Yeah, this is one where they didn't, this film itself hasn't been made, but the story of the Lonely Hearts killers certainly inspired a number of iterations of the story. First off, in 1960, there was on the TV show Deadline, there was an episode called Lonely Hearts killers about them. Then, of course, this film, in 1996, there was a Mexican film called Deep Crimson made about it. In 2006, another film called Lonely Hearts, and in 2014, a Belgian French film called "Alleluia" inspired by these events. Last but not least, in 2006, there was an episode on Cold Case, the TV series called Lonely Hearts, which featured a pair of killers named Martha Puck and Raymond Delgado, inspired by the story. So, yeah, there you go. All right, well, they did, I mean, they were noteworthy. If you're going to go with a legacy, maybe this is what you got. Okay, so we're going to have now a turn our attention to a very short conversation about awards. True, they didn't get any. So the numbers, how to do at the box office, do you have a data? Well, after his wealthy friend told him to make a movie, the film's producer Warren Stieble told him he could do it for $150,000. While that initially seemed like the budget, there are other sources that apparently go as high as $250,000. Based on an article in the Philadelphia Inquirer, however, which it was actually closest to the time of release, that estimate was $200,000. So that's what I'm going to go with. That actually is about $1.6 million in today's dollars. The movie opened February 4th, 1970, and it was received well, apparently going on to earn $11 million at the US box office or $89.7 million domestically. That lands the film with an adjusted profit per finished minute of $816,000 and, perhaps more importantly, means that it earned back 55 times its budget. That is a one healthy margin for a first film. I can't believe they wouldn't give Castle money to make another movie afterwards. No, that's stunning. Yeah, crazy. That's stunning. Wow, we'll give you all the money you want, but you've got to make another murder movie. Yeah, right. That's what that conversation was like, bummer. Well, I'm thrilled we saw it. I'm thrilled it was on the list and that just bumped for old Castle. Yeah, definitely a film that I'm very glad I've seen. And man, this is one I saw when I was prepping for this, that this is one of those films that gets into circulation 35 millimeter screenings at various places around the country here and there. And this is one I'd love to see on the big screen. I think it would hold up really well with an audience. For sure. I'd like to see that IMAX UPRES 4DX. I want to just swing me around in the chair and spit on me. That drowning sequence. Yeah. Yeah, I want to get wet. That's a deal. Oh, man. All right. Well, we'll be right back for a ratings. But first here's the trailer for next week's movie, Barbara Lowden's Wanda. You come home from work. She's lying around on the couch. Kids are dirty. There's diapers on the floor. Sometimes the kids is outside running around. Nobody watching them. Wanda Gorowski. Listen, Judge, if he wants a divorce, just give it to him. You know what happened to me? Somebody stole all my money. And I'm just no good. Just no good. You can do it. I can't. You can do it. I can't. You can't. [SIREN WAILING] [SIREN WAILING] [SIREN WAILING] I'm going down. Look, we're talking about a movie today that celebrates the very worst in the honeymoon agenda. Don't believe me? If you're about to get married, here's a list of terrible ideas that are all better than murder. Invite your in-laws along for the trip and share the honeymoon suite the more the merrier, am I right? Forget to pack any clothes and insist on a nudist honeymoon surprise. Book separate hotel rooms to maintain an era of mystery. Litigate your future relationships with all your dumb wedding guests who chose to wear white at your wedding. Bring along a life-size cardboard cutout of your celebrity crush so your new spouse can get used to who's at the top of your hall pass. Plan a strict itinerary filled with the visits to obscure filming locations of your favorite movies, like Point Break. Consistently compare your spouse's appearance to their dating profile pictures from five years ago. Spend your evenings teaching your spouse the intricate rules of settlers of cotan. Treat the honeymoon as a perfect opportunity to teach your spouse how to reenact your favorite scenes from Tommy Boy. Is there a niner in there? Honeymoons are hard, but we at the Next Real believe they should never lead to murder. Need a support group just to make sure? Join the club at the Next Real family of film podcasts. For just a few bucks a month, you get your own personal podcast feed with periodic bonus episodes and early access to shows. In episode bonus content, random stickers in the mail, add free versions of select episodes, access to the live stream recording session so you can jump in and listen as we're recording and screwing up that we just cut out of the main show. Access to our exclusive channels in our Discord community and the satisfaction of directly supporting the podcast you love in the Next Real family, including this show, Sitting in the Dark, the Film Board, Cinema Scope and Movies We Like. So go get married, have a peaceful honeymoon, and when you get back, visit truestory.fm/join and become a supporter today. At the Next Real, we're about two things, watching movies and saving lives. Thank you for your support on With the Show. Letterbox, Andy, we're back for Letterbox. Letterbox.com/TheNextReal, that's where you can find our HQ page and see all of our ratings. What are you going to do for this movie? This is one I really enjoyed. I'm going to give four stars in a heart for now. It's entirely possible it might bump up to four and a half on subsequent watches, but I think four stars in a heart is a great place to start with this one. As usual, I just have to ask, where does the one star fall? Yeah, and that's tricky. I don't know exactly. I feel like, I mean, it's entirely possible it could go up to five, but I don't know. There's something that just didn't feel like a five star film for me, like out of the gate. I just didn't feel like a five star film. Yeah, but you're going to say, no, no, no, it's only because I think I came into it today with it as a four star film with a heart. I really do, but our conversation legitimately improved how I feel about this movie, like the layers of complexity that they were able to capture in these real characters that felt lived in and felt like normalized to the world they were in was is really something to celebrate. So I'm going to do it. I'm going to give it five stars in a heart. What do you think about that? I love it. I love it. This is a great watch. It's a really, you know, this is a film that definitely is a surprise. Like I just, I'd heard of it. I knew loosely about the honeymoon killer, the lonely hearts killers, but I didn't really have this in mind when I added this to the, to our watch list for the season. So I'm thrilled to have been able to see it now and I'm glad to talk to talk about it so people will check it out. For sure. So don't forget, you can find me over at Letterbox at Soda Creek Film. You can find Pete at Pete Wright and you can find the show at the next reel. So what did you think about the honeymoon killers? We would love to hear your thoughts. Hop into the show, talk channel over in our Discord community where we will be talking about the movie this week. When the movie ends, our conversation begins. You got it. You got to wipe off the cobwebs. Shake off the cobwebs. What do you do? Yeah, what do you do with those cobwebs? Eat them? Is that one? Jesus. Letterbox, give it to Andrew. As Letterbox, always do it. Sometimes these old movies are, you know, you have to put some thought into how you're going to pick your review. How did you sort? I went by when reviewed and I actually ended up grabbing the earliest review. The first review? The first review? Yeah. And granted, I also liked it because it was a five star in the heart that I just really connected with, but interestingly, also the very first. All right, go ahead. What do you got? This was May 7th, 2012, when the first review is added to Letterbox by Joe, five stars in a heart who says, has to rank among the most upsetting movies I've ever seen. It reminds me of Sam Fuller a little in the way. It uses genre trappings, in this case, melodrama and exploitation, to explore very serious and universal emotions. In this case, jealousy, lust, fear of being alone, fear of getting older, fear of not doing enough to observe Abraham Lincoln's birthday. And even though it very much feels like a cheapo thriller, it's also incredibly authentic, highly recommended. Well, that was very nice. Very nice. And we didn't even talk about the fact that the whole Abraham Lincoln's birthday thing, like I was writing in my house. Wait a minute. Were people doing this for Abraham Lincoln's birthday at this point in history? And then, of course, you have Martha say, whatever her light is like, well, yeah, now celebrating Lincoln's birthday. I was like, okay, maybe it's just this character who does this, but that was a lot for Lincoln's birthday. Well, I've got one from Christina who says, Martha, the girl boss of gatekeeping and gaslighting, had big cast of Eddie's and John Waters energy, shot documentary style, one time director, Leonard Castle captures two filthy and lawless lovers in a story where they scam desperate women searching for a husband. Everything about this film was grotesque in a super slim, semi good way, L.O.L. side note, it wasn't for me, but it's one of the Isabelle who pairs criterion criterion closet pick. So maybe a lie and say it is for me. Christina ended up giving it two and a half stars. I love that reasoning. That's fantastic. I know. Me too. Thanks, Letterbox. [BLANK_AUDIO]
