FiredUp Network
Thursday, August 15: Don Cherry's Grapevine Podcast
(upbeat music) - Thanks everybody and this week's Grapevine Show will be listening to a 1984 interview that Dad had with heavyweight champ Smokin' Joe Frazier. Now some of you might not know that Dad is a huge boxing fan and went to see Canadian heavyweight George Fafalo fight every chance he got. I remember him taking me to a bunch of closed circuit. We used to go follow Marvelous Marvin Hagler when he was in Boston. We remember going to see the Sugar Ray Leonard, Roberto Duran, some closed circuits. So Dad and I have seen a lot of boxing matches and we're big boxing fans. So Smokin' Joe Frazier coming to the show was a really big deal. Now for those who don't know who Smokin' Joe is, he was in the golden age of heavyweights in the early 70s and he became the undisputed heavyweight champ in 1970 when he beat Jimmy Ellis in Madison Square Garden. And you'll learn more about Smokin' Joe during the interview. But he's probably best known for his three fights with Muhammad Ali. And his first fight was in 1971 at Madison Square Garden and it was called Fight of the Century because both fighters were undefeated. And this was the first time that two undefeated heavyweights fought for the World Championship. The other thing interesting on that fight, I think that was the first fight that trash talking became a thing. And what happened was both fighters were doing an interview with Coward Cosell for ABC, Wild World of Sports I think the day before the match. And Ali called Joe ignorant and Joe got upset and they almost threw down right on the set. And Joe talks about that a bit more in the interview. So Joe won that fight and they met again in 1974 at Madison Square Gardens and Ali won that fight. And the third fight was one of the greatest and probably one of the most brutal heavyweight fights of all time. It was called the Thrilla and Manila. And they fought in the oppressive heat of the Philippines. And in the 14th round, I mean it was just an absolutely brutal fight. And in the end of the 13th round, just before the 14th round, 'cause they were 15 rounds back then, Ali went to the corner and told his trainer, Agile Dundee, to take his gloves off. That was it, he couldn't go any further. And Dundee said no, just ignored him. And at the same time across the ring, Joe's manager stopped the fight. And after the fight, Ali said it was the closest to dying that I know of. The other thing I always found interesting with the smoke of Joe Frazier was he was the original Rocky. So Sylvester Stallone kind of took his life and made the movie Rocky. Because if you remember, Sly Stallone's carry, Rocky Balboa, worked in a meat packing factory in Philly and used to hit the sides of the beef. Well, he kind of stole or borrowed that idea from the real life of Joe Frazier. And Joe talks about that in his interview, which is kind of cool. And coming up after the movie, I'm gonna tell you a really funny story about that night. So without further ado, here's Dad, Don Cherry, talking with smoking Joe Frazier. You know blue, smoking Joe Frazier on the grapevine tonight. I think Muhammad Aldi described Joe the best. He had the heart of a lion and he never quit. It's an honor for us to have smoking Joe, the champ himself on the grapevine. So let's come out swinging, let's do it right blue, roll the credits. ♪ Bet you wondered how I do ♪ ♪ Asboarding heroes and old blues ♪ ♪ Grapes will tell the two you stray ♪ ♪ He will tell you two with a grapevine ♪ (audience applauding) - Hello everybody and welcome to the grapevine. (audience applauding) I'm John Allen Cameron and tonight we have a great show. Over at the bar are a couple of people who want you to meet, our regulars. In one corner, Irish Jimmy Loft just weighing in at 165 and Bill the Hammerland at 195. All right. And tonight's special guest, one of the grapes from rural Bay, South Carolina at six foot one and weighing 220 smoked and Joe Frazier. (audience applauding) And now another pretty tough customer, Mr. Don Cherry. (audience applauding) (audience applauding) - Hey, I'm in awe. Hey, hey, hey, hey. (audience applauding) That's good for you. - Great. (audience applauding) - That's good. (audience applauding) (audience applauding) - We got a hook to team again, I put that right on right down his shoulder. How'd he get ready for somebody? You were ready for that? - That's good. - Well, welcome back to the grapevine. Here he is, I'll tell ya. - Smoke and Joe, I'll tell ya. (audience applauding) - You'll have to forgive me if I'm a little nervous. Here, he's my hero, but I understand on the way down, you even smoke up the limousines coming down. (audience laughing) - Yeah, we had low engine trouble, I think that it probably heated up, you know. - Yeah. - We're trying to get it so fast, that's probably what he did. - Oh, I know you're anxious, I'll tell you, was Foster's the best left hook we saw there earlier? - No, I think that in the early part of the years, like in the 70s, when I took on, let's say, Ellis, that was a better left hook then, than Foster's ever, 'cause I didn't get missed one, I caught him from the back of it, he probably saw the back, but if you have him in front, I caught him in the middle of the hook, I went under, and then he fell over. - Nice, take it easy, no, I'll tell ya. You know what, he gets you bad here. All right, let's start at the very beginning, was sort of like a playoff, your life rocky, little in the slaughterhouse, that's where you build up your strength, knock 'em, little things around. - I used to work at a slaughterhouse, I worked at the slaughterhouse from '62 to about '64. I ran in the streets of Philadelphia, I was in the gymnasium, it's crazy, I used to go to gym so late, at night, the whole man gave me a key for the gym, everybody were gone. - Is that right? - Nobody had to go home, because my house at the time, at the gymnasium was like seven o'clock, eight o'clock in the gym clothes, my house at work was like four a.m. in the morning, and I would go from four a.m. to about six, and when I had six o'clock, then I'd go to the gym, and from the gymnasium, I'd go to the park. - Well, that's dedication, I'll tell ya, you worked at a slaughterhouse and you slaughtered a lot of guys, I'll tell ya that. Now, I understand that you tried out, now correct me if I'm wrong, for a Rocky movie, for Mr. T, and you give Stallone a little shot, and they didn't take you, is that true? - Well, that's not really the reason, you know, when I was looking at the pictures, and looking at the films, or whatever, you know, Rocky movie is like, let's say, build around the former champion myself. - Yeah. - I worked the slaughterhouse. - For sure, that's what I mean. - For slaughterhouse, Stallone couldn't cut a beef, if you didn't even know me. (audience applauds) You can put me in the slaughterhouse, and I could take that animal apart, I worked that. - Just like you did, Muhammad, that one fight. - That's right, that's right, that's right. - And I get, my job is my job, whatever it may be, I learned to do well. And during the time, my work got slaughtered, I was a good job, it was a good living for my family. - Honest job, good. - Yeah, I had to make a living for my family, so at the time, when I couldn't really fight my way around, like I shit, because I was growing up as a young man, and I had a young family to take care of them. - Well, my wife says you're too good looking for Mr. T, anyhow, for sure. Now, when I grew up, I listened to Foster Hewitt, and I always wanted to be a hockey player, as I grew up, did you, you were growing up, did you want to be a fighter right from when you were about 12 or 13? - Well, it's really crazy, I did try to play baseball. I lived well. - You're a catcher, weren't you? - Yes, I can't, no. - No? - You're not putting me behind that ball. - Oh, all right, go ahead. - I don't like any position in the world, I would try with the besides behind that bat. I can't see that ball coming, guys. - So you want to be a ball player? - Yeah, I played baseball when I was young, and then when I left the South, let's say, then I decided I would, but it's crazy, you know? You have to look at one thing, a man, a person, will bone to be. I mean, regardless of what it is, to be, to be, you understand? Now, when I was young, I was a kid. My daddy and my uncle, they'd say, you know that little boy right there, gonna beat your voice. So, you know, I keep hitting my head, you know? Like, when I was a kid in the South, they didn't have the facilities and stuff there for what I want to do. So, you know what I think about a crocus bag or a sack? - Nope. - Okay, let me tell you. I used to stuff with a cloth, some damn irons, and bricks, and I was hanging on the street, and I punched one. - That was your punching bag? - That's my punching bag, right? - Well, my dad said that I looked like I was gonna be great on television, and here I am. (laughing) - You know, you're always like that. (laughing) You know, tell us about the responsibility of a heavyweight champion. I mean, if the heavyweights are going good, boxing's going good, so the whole thing rests on your shoulders. - Well, the responsibility, not to be a heavyweight champion, or responsibility to be an athlete like yourself. - Oh, thanks very much, Joe. - Well, you have to take pride in it. Nobody have to tell you what to do when not to do it in the right time. Most of my sons, and my nephews, that is in the gym today, I don't have no problem with all these guys are getting up and going to the park in the morning, show up in the gym at the right time. No shortage of cut on the work. Now, these guys, not trying to follow that image, they just want to be a good, be good at whatever their job may be. So that's relate to a good athlete, a good man, anything that you want to do, or a lady, the only lady's out, okay? And the ladies, same man. - Well, that's great, fine. You can leave them. - Okay, listen, I want to ask you a bit. You know, I always want tooth questions. You know when Ali and you were going out at the way ends, and was that staged? You know, all that trying to get at each other? - No. - I remember one time you get up and walked off, the cell. - Right, it's a lot of things that, let's say, before this man got his boxing license back, you know, a lot of things were staged like Philadelphia. I think we had like a workout in a little small pal gym in Philadelphia, and what we did, we blocked up traffic like 10 to 12 miles each way, four ways, east, north, and south and west. We just blocked it up. Now, those things were staged, but when it got to the point, as time go by, and he got his driver's license, or his boxing license, and his mouth license. - Yeah, I'll go along with that. - All of it, you know, everything. - Yeah, it was to the basis where that he changed. So therefore, when he changed, and I saw the difference in the man that I used to know as being an okay guy, after he got his license back, then hot changed. - I remember a couple of times, I knew you could tell for a while there, you were going along with it, then when that good self thing, hey, you're not gonna make a fool of me. Now, the comeback, I'd like to talk about the comeback. You made a comeback, and you know, it's a funny thing. Soccer player, or hockey player, baseball player, come back, they're all farmed. Soon as the heavyweight champion, you know, they just take out the worst films, there's something on those three fights. - Well, well, Don, it's like this, if a fighter, a hockey player, any individual, let's say a man, a lady, feels to himself or herself that he can do the job, I mean, why not? Now, sometimes, in our business, we like get away from it so long that it make it a little difficult to come back and do the things that we used to do. Now, you take myself, I'm gonna gym every day with the boys. - I know, you've lied. - You can say, yeah, you're in shape. - You know, I'm gonna gym every day with the boys, and I had an old saying, my daddy had an old saying, he would say, if you wouldn't go, don't send me. - There you are. - So, the main thing about that, if I tell these boys how to hit the speed bag, come off of the shot, that means I can do it twice as better because I want them to be able to do that also. - Well, I'll tell you, there's one last question I'd like to ask you, I said, I watched you the time and I said, I gotta ask you, if I ever get a chance, I'm gonna ask you, I didn't hurt you the time. Why did you wear those long trunks, that one fight? - No, well, let's say, as I grow, I probably design a lot of stuff that I like, I just wanna be a little more, you know. - In the style, is that it? - Yeah, actually, I remember actually had long trunks way down here. - We didn't make you feel any better, right? - No, it's just out here at the looks of it, then you have one room. - Yeah. - If the trunk is too tight, you can't scratch with the punches you need, you know what I mean? It holds you down. - Well. - It's like you really have that stick. - You better believe it. Of course, I was down all the time, so I didn't make any difference. I'll tell ya. We got, we're gonna come back. - Yeah. (clapping) - You're all in it, give me a hug over there. - Nice to meet you. - We got a couple of questions for you, I didn't ask. - I understand you're bringing up another world champion to following your footsteps. - We have like, probably, let's say three sons and three, four nephews in a gym. - This teaching you was right in the boxing game. - That's a money in it, right? - That's the name of the business. - You better believe it, is that all? Jimmy, go ahead. - Joe, I'd like to ask you this, and I know you'll be honest in your answer. The toughest punch you ever tuck in your entire career. Who was that from? - I took Joe's phone. - Oh, you know what I mean? (laughing) - Seven times I've been down. I gotta, I think George points very good, but he doesn't have the technique, you know. I really heard a guy, you know. - How come George, you know, he was a good fighter. He wasn't bad, and then he got against Ali. Was he, did he have a bad manager? What, didn't that fight? - Well, from get go, jump-screen. - Is that right? - The guys have to be toward right. And once, like, you're in your game by being toward right, you know what I mean? Then you can get real, and that's where these guys didn't learn nothing. Did that happen by teaching them? - How's your singing career coming? - Right now I'm back to the gym. - Back to the gym, right now we're gonna go to John Allen. Take it away, John Allen. - All right, here's your song, everybody. (applause) ♪ Look from the top of the city ♪ ♪ Waiting for the man every night and day ♪ ♪ And I never lost a man in obsolete ♪ ♪ Wearing 'bout the way it thinks that might happen ♪ ♪ Big wheels keep on turning ♪ ♪ Proud every keep on burning ♪ ♪ Come on up, champ, come on up here and sing ♪ ♪ Rolling, rolling, rolling on the river ♪ ♪ Rolling, rolling, rolling on the river ♪ - Take it away, champ. ♪ Got a lot of pain in Memphis ♪ ♪ A job, a lot of wind, I didn't see ♪ ♪ Burn every loss when men are sleeping ♪ ♪ Wearing 'bout the way it thinks that might happen ♪ ♪ Big wheels keep on turning ♪ ♪ Oh, yeah, find every keep on burning ♪ ♪ Rolling, rolling, rolling on the river ♪ ♪ Rolling, rolling, rolling on the river ♪ ♪ If you come down to the river ♪ ♪ Baby, you're gonna find some people who live ♪ ♪ You don't have to worry if you've got no money ♪ ♪ People on the river happy to get ♪ - At the end there, that was Joe Singh with John Allen Cameron rolling on the river. And a funny story about boxing that with Dad and I shared was when I was about 12 years old, Dad took me down to the Boston Gardens to watch some matches. And that's actually, that's why the Boston Garden was built was originally built to watch boxing. So we went and we sat kind of in the press box. And it was kind of like a semi amateur night. And so the first five or six fights were amateur fights. And then the last fight was like two pretty good fighters that were like working their way up the ranks. So the last fight before the main event was these two heavyweights. And there were two fat Irish guys went in and it was five rounds and they just beat the living hell out of each other for the five rounds. It was just, it was unbelievable. So now the main event comes on and that was these two middleweights. And again, they were pretty good boxers. But for the first round, they kind of felt each other out. Not a lot of punches were thrown, a lot of kind of dancing. And the second round, same thing, few punches thrown, but a lot of dancing. So between the second and third round, it was all quiet. And somebody from the dark recess of the Boston Garden Yell, bring back the fat guys. So I'm gonna tell you something that happened that night. So we were shooting the shows in Hamilton, Ontario, which is about half hour outside of Toronto, Ontario, where the Pearson International Airport is. So we sent a limo down to pick up Joe and we sent a large limo down because we didn't know how many people Joe was gonna bring with him. And we expected the limousine to be back around 6.30, quarter to seven and we're gonna shoot the show at eight o'clock. So again, this is, you know, 84, there was no cell phone. So it's 6.30, we're kind of looking out the door, you know, waiting to see that for the limo to come quarter to seven, it's not there. 7 o'clock hasn't shown up, quarter after seven, he hasn't shown up, 7.30 hasn't shown up. So there's no cell phone. We don't know if Joe missed his flight, if the car limo broke down, we don't know what happened. So eight o'clock, the time we're supposed to be shooting, the limo finally pulls up and Joe gets out of the limo and his shirt is all kind of dirty and he's sweating. And what happened was that the limo started to overheat and the guy, a limo driver had to pull over and he opened up the hood, the limo driver, he didn't know what was going on. And smoking Joe owned a bunch of limos. So he says, well, let me take a look. And he kind of fixed the engine, cooled it down and they made their way back to Hamilton about, you know, almost an hour and a half late. And luckily enough for us, right across the street was a men's clothing store and they were just about to close and we ran across the street and got Joe a new shirt. So he would look good for the show. So that was an exciting night. And dad was quite exciting meeting Joe Frazier. And as you can see, he didn't have a lot of kind words from Muhammad Ali. I think they made up later in life. But I think Joe was a little hurt about some of the things that Ali said about him. And even Ali said after his retirement that he didn't treat Joe Frazier the way he should have. But it was good to see a read after all these years before Joe passed that they had kind of buried the hatchet. Thanks everybody for watching. And thanks for everybody's thoughts and prayers. And Lord willing, we'll see you next week. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music)