Stage Whisper
Whisper in the Wings Episode 557
(upbeat music) - Welcome back in everyone to a fabulous new whisper in the wings from stage whisper. We are so excited to be welcoming back one of our dear dear friends who also has an incredibly successful and important and powerful podcast. Of course, I'm talking about the creator and host Sean Hayden. He has joined us to talk about season three of his show, Stage Combat, which is premiering on July 23rd. You can listen to Stage Combat anywhere you stream podcasts. You can also get more information about the show by visiting their Instagram at Stage Combat, the podcast IG. We have had the amazing, amazing honor of covering the show from the beginning. And if you haven't listened to Sean's story, you need to go back to season one and listen because not only is this an incredible journey that Sean's gone on but the topics and the ideas and the people who chime in about them makes it even better. This is a really, really important thing to be speaking about today. But I'm not the one who should be describing it 'cause I'm doing a terrible job. I think the perfect person for this, of course, is our guest. So let us welcome back on Sean. Welcome back to Whisper and the Wing, some Stage Whisper. - Hey, Andrew, it's our third time together on your podcast. This is so amazing. Hi, everyone. - This is amazing. I'm so happy you're back and with season three of your show, which I'm more about to find out where we're going. - Yeah. - We start by having you remind our listeners a little bit about what your show, Stage Combat, is about. - Well, Stage Combat is about fighting back against harmful practices, particularly in workplaces in the theater industry and protecting our mental health. And in seasons one and two, I told my own personal story of a workplace nightmare to be kind about it and my own mental health journey. And we took the listener in seasons one and two on a three and a half year journey. And I just laid it all out there about what happened, what happened behind the scenes with my employer, how it affected me with a panic disorder, going in to see a psychiatrist, going in to see a therapist to really take people on that journey. And so now in season three, we're telling the stories of listeners who responded to my podcast story. So it's this incredible thing that's happening. There was never going to be a season three, but we just received so many stories and messages from listeners that we printed them all up in a notebook and looked at them and said, "We have to find a way to tell these stories." And that's what season three is all about. - That is incredible. So you mentioned that your base in season three on the response you got from your listeners. What was it that made you land on that idea that season three would be sculpted all around the response to your story and your show? - Well, look, what happened, what I hoped would happen, but you don't know when you put your story out there, was that we would develop community. And I think so many people are just dying for community when it comes to wanting a better workplace or being able to say, hey, I was traumatized under these circumstances in this workplace. My mental health was compromised. You know, we want to feel like we're not alone, you know, and that's sort of what happened with telling my story. And also on our Instagram stage come back to podcast IG, it's become a place for people to come and share, you know, how they feel about their workplaces, how they feel about their mental health. So our Instagram sort of became this community that was bigger than me, you know, was bigger than Sean's story. And so season three was a natural progression from that, but like I said, we just compiled all these messages. Any time anyone sent in a story or a message, we printed it up old school and we put it in a notebook. And we started, we started tabbing them according to categories, you know, here's bullying stories, here's stage manager stories, here's, you know, stage combat stories. And then from that, we looked at it and said, can we tell these stories in an immersive storytelling format with me as the narrator who went through something and for me to be emotionally invested in telling these stories and then figure out a way, how do we present those stories? - That is amazing. I love the amount of response that you received and how you've taken this on. So I'm really curious to know with the amount of feedback you've gotten, how is it that you selected the particular stories and people that you're featured in season three? - Well, it was basically, look, we had enough stories on a whiteboard for three seasons, to be honest. You know, if the podcast can continue, we have plenty of topics and stories to tell in a season four or season five. So what we did was we basically selected about 11 stories to tell in a season. And, you know, it became when people wanted to tell their stories, we would interview them and kind of see where that interview would go. Could we connect it with other stories? Could we pair them with somebody else? It's sort of an organic process. And, you know, and then from there, so many of these stories they happened because someone wrote in and said, "Hey, Sean, I also was in a dangerous stage combat situation like you were in your job." Or, "Hey, Sean, I was the subject of a botched workplace investigation like you were." So we shared that commonality and that's sort of how a lot of these episodes were formed. People wrote in with a commonality to my story and we share, we express that commonality within the episode. Yeah, and then we came up, you know, at the end of the day, we had a third season. - Amazing, amazing. So we are barreling into season three premiering. I mean, we are just at the time of this recording, I think about three weeks away from season three premiering. What has it been like developing this currency? - It was a, it's been a lot harder than I thought. I'll be honest with you. Well, look, seasons one and two was basically, I thought was the hardest format you could do 'cause it was serialized nonfiction, right? So, you know, that's, we had a lot of production, we had voice actors, we had sound effects, we had music. That's really, really hard. This idea of sort of like, you know, I compare it, look, we're not as good as these podcasts, but, you know, my favorite NPR podcast or "This American Life" and "The Ted Talks" and they do a really good job of how they connect the stories together, how it's edited, you know, and how they present the stories. That's tough to do, you know? And you're also trying to do it that you're respecting the person who's telling their story, you know? These, the people who are in this season, it's a big step for them. It's a big step to step out in the spotlight and share everything. I know that firsthand. You know, I was terrified before I told my story. I didn't know what the reaction would be. So, you know, it's, it was tough to make sure that we were telling these stories in the right way, but we were telling it in an immersive way that, you know, it's not just having an interview. It's, can we style these stories in a way that makes you think about things in a different way? But then at the end of the episode, are we maybe suggesting there's a better way to do things? You know, the stories aren't just about exposing harmful practices. It's about at the end of the day, how can we make life in the workplace better for everyone? - I love, love that idea. I love that idea. I wanna ask you, what exactly can audiences expect from season three? I mean, the previous seasons, obviously we heard your story, we heard me enactments of the situations you were exposed to, as well as like a Q and A afterwards with several different people. What exactly are we in store for for season three? - Well, every story starts with me as the narrator. And, you know, we started with a landing point as to what the topic is going to be about in these stories. And then we interweave into the stories. So we're gonna be covering a lot of things. We're gonna be looking closely at bullying and harassment in the industry. We're going to be looking at the problems with figure programs and abusive practices and abusive practices. You wouldn't believe, Andrew, how many stories, emails, messages we get about trauma that people have suffered in theater programs. We heard a lot about, despite all the great stage managers out there, we heard a lot about toxic stage managers. So we're looking at three Broadway actors whose lives were totally changed. They were traumatized by how they were treated by their stage manager. We're looking at botched workplace investigations. You might remember that in my story, Andrew. We're looking at actual stage combat. People who have been put in unsafe stage combat situations, like I was in my story. We're looking at the unsafe portrayal of sexual explicit content in the workplace. This is why, thank God, now we have intimacy directors, but not everywhere, you know? We also are looking at some stories of young adults at the start of the careers and sort of what are they thinking about? How are they viewing the workplace and what are they concerned about? And then an episode I'm really proud of is we're looking at the 2018 tragic death of Chicago, the musical actor, Jeff Luffelholz, if you remember that. And I think a lot of people have forgotten about that story. And so we worked on this episode for about six months and we wanted to show what Jeff was personally going through. And we were given access to his own private notes and messages. And so from the standpoint of just saying, this is what this particular person was going through. This is how perhaps we can better understand the public crisis that is suicide, right? You know, it's important to talk about it and not be afraid to talk about it. And so if you take all of that together, it's a really compelling season that I think the listener will find, you know, really satisfying. - That is incredible. I'm so, so amazed with what you are diving into and the stories you are bringing to the forefront. - And I'm so grateful, Andrew, for the people who are stepping out in the spotlight to tell their stories. I mean, I just cannot underestimate that and thank them for what they are doing. It is, it is a scary thing to do. And like I said before, I know that firsthand. And I just hope when people hear these stories that they will offer up their support and their love for the people who are in these episodes who are telling their stories. - Yes. - 'Cause we all really need to support each other. That's what community is about. - Yes. Well, with these wonderful, wonderful people and artists coming forward and sharing their stories, I am curious to know, I mean, looking back, looking in the rear view mirror, what have you learned from seasons one and two going into this third season? - Well, that, there is tremendous power in storytelling. You know, our catchphrase at stage combat is claim your story. And the power of storytelling is something that we hear over and over. That if telling your story can move someone to tears, can move their heart because they want change or they've been in a similar position. That's been the most significant thing I've learned from telling the podcast. You know, it was kind of like, I'm going to tell my story, but I had no expectations of what would happen. You know, I've also learned that change is slow. Just like we were saying that the power structure is imbalanced, that look, for all the community we've created, there's plenty of people that don't like what I did. You know, how dare you come out and tell the truth about what happened. You know, so that's always going to be there. There's always going to be resistance. But I just keep saying we can't give up. We have to keep, we have to keep kicking and screaming. And I do believe that eventually change will come. Eventually, they will recognize there are more of us than they are of them. There are more of us in the talent pool than there are of the people at the top. - Yes, absolutely. And just like you said, it will take all of us, either standing up together or a huge public pressure to enact this change. And it looks like the former is something you've started and more and more people are joining in. - Yeah, and look, the best thing you can do, come join us on Instagram at stage. Come back the podcast IG, you know. We would love to hear what you think or, you know, we would like to feature your thoughts on our social media. It's like, you know, just come be part of the community. And yeah. - Well, actually that public engagement leads to the next thing I want to talk to you about because you have another premiere besides the Instagram that's 23rd. - We do, 'cause it wasn't crazy enough to try to do season three, you know. That wasn't enough Andrew. - More to it. - But you've got a Patreon coming. Can you tell us about your new Patreon? - We do, and it's some really cool stuff. You know, Patreon is a great way to support your podcast. You know, stage combat is presented at free. And there's a lot of work that goes into it. So it's a great way for our listeners to support the podcast. But we are really giving a lot of great content to our listeners. And, you know, Patreon is a great 'cause you usually get, here's a bonus content of an interview that we didn't include in the mainstream podcast. We're doing all that. But we did something kind of crazy. We created all new podcast series for our community because that's what we heard. We heard they want a community. So we thought, what if there's something in Patreon that you can go and get something every week? So stage combat is in your life every week. So we created an acting podcast. It's called Just Acting. And we're partnering with Christopher Webb. He's a professor of acting at Boston Conservatory at Berkeley who we connect it because he listened to the podcast. You know, it's this great idea of this community. And so that's really cool. Someone said just like getting an acting lesson while you're on the subway in your earpods. We created a mental health podcast where we have conversations with mental health people, other actors just to talk about mental health. It's called the mental health pod. We have a series called stage combat directors commentary. So my husband Ian who a lot of people on the podcast know, we replay the original Goodspeed story and we interrupted it and we give you the juicy tidbits of what we couldn't include the first time around. So that's something everyone's really enjoying. We did a preview of it already. And then we created a social media podcast. It's called Watch You Posten. We have a stage combat listener join me as a co-host. And we talk about our favorites. We talk about our favorite social media posts when it comes to theater, entertainment and lifestyles. So as you can see, there's a lot you can get from our Patreon that's just more than something we didn't include in the mainstream podcast episode. So that is, that's opening on July 9th, Tuesday, July 9th. - That is incredible. Oh my gosh, I love seeing how much your show is expanding. All that bonus content and the extras that you're including, this is wonderful. The voices that we're gonna get to hear, this is amazing. - Yeah, it's cool. Patreon is like our chat podcast and then stage combat will still have that very produced, almost investigative feel, even as we're telling the stories of other listeners. So it's a great balance that the listener gets to experience, you know, the mainstream podcast and all the new chat podcast on Patreon. - That is wonderful. Now we've kind of talked about the answer to this next question a little bit. And I just kind of want to hone in, you know, on a singular idea of what is the message or thought you hope audiences are gonna take away from season three? - Well, again, I think they're going to get a sense of community. This is my hope, Andrew. If we built a sense of community just from me being this guy who told his story, this nightmare job story, right? And my mental health journey, I'm so excited to see what happens while we start telling all these other stories. I think that is so powerful, right? And there's not really a podcast that's doing that in this collective way. So that's what I'm really excited about. And also, like I said, not just to say, here's the harmful things that are happening to our listeners. But let's talk about how do we make things better? You know, let's not just do, you know, we're not a got you podcast. It's like, these are voices that need to be validated, but then how can we make things better for everyone in the workplace? But, you know, if you're telling me what, I guess the theme that comes through in most of these episodes, there's something that really was a big realization for me. And it came through listening to the storytellers. There is this idea in our industry that I think is very dangerous and that we've gotta protect ourselves from. And it is the danger of fusing our identities into our work. Do you know what I mean? Because our work is so personal, right? And so what happens is when our work gets invalidated, such as what happened to me in my job, our identities become invalidated. And that's something that we heard over and over in the stories and it really can lead to really severe, you know, mental health issues, really harms our wellbeing. And so the thing that I've learned in doing this new season, and I think that people will come away with is, how do we protect ourselves against that? How do we expand our sense of self? That is beyond the job that I get. That is beyond how do I do in auditions? - I think you're nailing it spot on. Well, rounding us out to this first part, I'm curious to know who all do you hope have access, not only to season three or stage combat, but also to this bonus content you're releasing on Patreon? - Everyone, Andrew, everyone. Well, our stories are based in the theater, but we have a lot of listeners who are either just fascinated because they wanna know what, we have so many people who don't work in theater and so I'm fascinated by what actors go through, theater workers, I had no idea. And now we had a listener named Anna, she was on our social media. She says, I always thought I was, I've always gone to the theater, but now when I go, I look at the actors in a different way. If I see something go wrong with a prop, or if I see a fight sequence or choreography, I'm thinking about their safety mail. If I see a really emotional scene, I'm thinking, do they have some sort of mental health person on the production staff to help them with that? That's what we really need to do. We really need to expand the way audiences look at it. And then maybe audiences will start demanding changes in the industry as well. They're paying for these productions, right? So I think that's what's really exciting. But for instance, Ian's mom, Carol, which some people know from the podcast, she's not an actor, but she's fascinated with the creative process. She's fascinated to hear what theater workers go through. And so, yeah, I think the podcast has a much broader appeal than just the theater community, but obviously we are there for the theater community as well. (upbeat music) - Well, for the second part of our interview, we love giving our listeners a chance to get to know our guests a little bit better. Pick your brain, if you will. I mean, we've had you on a few times already, but I am curious outside of the obvious answer to this next one, you know, what changes would you like to see made in theater, either now or coming in the near future? - How long do we have, Andrew? (both laughing) - Okay, I'll try to condense this. We need big changes in the theater. We need big, big changes. And I would submit to you that initiation needs to come from our union and that our union has a long way to go when it comes to mental health. I think the biggest thing, you'll hear this in several episodes, that we propose as a solution. We really need a mental health professional on the production team. Okay, sports teams have it. Sports teams have physical therapists. Okay, we have physical therapists on certain shows. Sports teams have a mental health component to that. Why is it that in a profession when we're required to use our emotions, is there no mental health component on the production staff? So we have an interview with Bridget McCarthy, she was with an organization in Atlanta. They're on an mission to help put, they're called mental health coordinators. And it's just part of the production team, sort of like we kind of know intimacy directors now, which we never had five years ago. So we know change is possible, right? Because there was a crisis with the MeToo movement. So we know it's cut, we're capable of doing it. So it would be someone that could not only help the actors navigate, let's just say I'm doing next to normal. We know that show is brutal, I've done that show. There's someone there that could help me, hey Sean, do you need somehow enrolling into that role and de-rolling out of that role? How do you safely get in and out of the scene so you're not causing damage to yourself? But also crisis management. We had a mental health coordinator say that almost every reduction that she works on, that someone comes forward expressing suicidal ideations. And I was in shock. I was in shock. If there was someone on the team, there's an extra avenue for care, right? And she also said, we know by the statistics that our population is incredibly vulnerable when it comes to mental health. When it comes to the rates of depression, anxiety disorders. And if we know that, why don't we have this mental health component? It's additional avenue of care. Like we have an ethical responsibility in our industry to provide that and it's not being done. And I hope that these new episodes in season three shed a light and it makes people go, okay, the crisis is here. We need to do something. So that's the biggest thing I would like to see. You know, the other thing Andrew, I think we've got to get a dialogue going with our workplaces. And I think active equity can play a key role in this. I, we have been recommending that, look, they did this with me too. They can get a study with their workplaces and ask them, what are you doing to protect the mental health of your actors? And actually have a list of recommendations and make them reply to that. And you know what happens? Now your artistic staff has got to sit down and have a conversation about it. But right now, no one is forcing them to have a conversation. Why isn't the union surveying us as the members? What do we want to see in the workplace? There's been no survey like that. You know, it's all about, how do we raise the profile of the conversation? And right now, that profile is not high enough. That is amazing. Now, in fairness, what I do know, I do know there have been attempts by our union to negotiate emotional safety into contracts. I think that's something we need to hear about publicly. Like even if you're not getting it, why aren't we hearing about that publicly? I heard that, you know, from an insider. But, you know, look, I know our new president, Brooke Shields, has been very vocal about mental health. I know she's been, you know, very open about her all mental health. And hopefully with that leadership, maybe we'll see some of these changes. But I think our listeners need to be proactive. Don't you think, Andrew, like right to your counselor? Like say, listen, I listen to stage combat and they're really concerned about mental health and what the union is doing. Can you tell me what the union is doing about mental health? Right? And you don't have to be a member of the union to ask what the union's doing. You can definitely be a member of the public and be like, I heard on stage combat or stage whisper that this is going on. What are you doing to make sure that da, da, da, da, da. Believe me, your words might have more weight than an average member. If you were just an audience member, like, like if you went to the Goodspeed Opera House, write them and say, can you itemize what you're doing to protect the mental health of your performers? Pick any theater that's your favorite. Maybe you go to the paper mill. You know, wherever you go. But you need to make your voice known. That's what they will respond to. Because you are the bottom line. You are the one making sure this happens. So the minute that you start to raise questions or concerns, they're going to want to make sure that you're at E. So you continue to patron them. Yeah, so let's just extend that. I think that's a doable challenge for anyone who's listening right now, Andrew. Right through a council member at Actors' Equity, you can find those addresses on the website and pick one theater that you've gone to. What's the one regional theater you go to? Yes. And then we would love to know the answer. Andrew would like to know if you hear back. Yes. Let Andrew know. Send us a DM at Stage Combat, the podcast IG. And let's get this conversation going. But that's something doable that everyone listening right now can do. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I love that. Well, as we wrap things up, I would love to know, are there any other productions, projects, or anything else you're working on that's coming on the pipeline? We might be able to plug in. Oh, good Lord, Andrew. Don't I have enough going on with Patreon and four chat series and Stage Combat, the podcast season three? Did you see how I got that all in one sentence? I think you need more, though. I think you're going to have just a little more. That's, look, that's what we're focused on. You know, we're going to see, look, it's like, you know, I hope if you build it, they will come and we'll see what happens. And if people want more. And a lot of this is dependent on because these podcasts are expensive to produce. So I hope people will come to Patreon and look at it. Like, I want to support this. And then that will help us see if we can get to a season four, 'cause like I said, Andrew, there's some topics you and I have talked about that I would love to look at. But, look, we've got enough whiteboard topics, like I said, for two more seasons and beyond. So right now, let's just really, you know, land the Patreon and season three. And I hope people up the new content. - It's so wonderful. And that leads to my final question, which we've already kind of touched on. And that, of course, is if our listeners want to get more information about Stage Combat, what about you? Maybe like to reach out to you? How can they do so? - Yes, the best way is on our Instagram at Stage Combat, the podcast IG. If you send a DM, I will personally get that. So that is the best way to reach out to me. And I promise I will respond. And then the podcast, you can get whatever you listen to your podcast. So just do a search for Stage Combat, the podcast. And then Patreon, just look up Patreon, Stage Combat, the podcast. And you'll see us right there. - Wonderful. Well, Sean, it has been an absolute joy as always speaking with you. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me and sharing all this amazing work you're doing. - My absolute pleasure. And I want to congratulate you 'cause didn't you recently celebrate your 500th anniversary, I mean, episode? Your 500th, not your anniversary. Your 500th episode. - Yes, yeah, we've stayed. - Yeah. - That's amazing, congratulations. - Thank you so much. It's amazing to look back at all the amazing artists you've gotten the chance to speak to, including yourself. So thank you for that, it's amazing. - Well, and I want to thank you for being a big supporter of the podcast. I think we were like the first podcast when, you were the first podcast when season one came out, you had a spec for season two, and you're actually the first podcast interview for season three. So it's so fitting to come back and see Andrew again. - That is amazing. Well, we are honored. Thank you for that. My guest today has been the amazing creator and host of the powerful and gripping show Stage Combat. And of course, we are speaking about Sean Aiden. Sean joined us to talk about season three of Stage Combat, which is premiering on July 23rd. And you can stream the current two seasons as well as the upcoming season. Anywhere you listen to podcasts, you can also reach out to them with your stories or to get more information by visiting their Instagram page, which is Stage Combat, the podcast, IG. Also, head over to Patreon because coming on July 9th, they've got some wonderful content and whatnot. That'll be on their Patreon. Just go to patreon.com, search Stage Combat. There's some wonderful extra tidbits for Patreon members. So head over that way. But for right now, circle July 23rd on your calendar. That's when season three comes out. You've got about three weeks at the time of this recording to get caught up on seasons one and two. This is a wonderful, wonderful show. Please make sure you support it. Please make sure you interact with it. Take these requests from our guests, reach out to those theater companies to find out what they're doing further the conversation and be proactive with it. Again, the show that we've been talking about, of course, is Stage Combat. So until next time, I'm Andrew Cortez reminding you to turn off your cell phones, unwrap your candies, and keep talking about the theater in a Stage Whisperer. Thank you. (upbeat music) - If you like what you hear, please leave a five star review, like and subscribe. - You can also find us on Facebook and Instagram at Stage Whisperer Pod. - And feel free to reach out to us with your comments and personal stories at Stage Whisperer Pod at gmail.com. And be sure to check out our website for all things Stage Whisperer and theater. You'll be able to find merchandise, tours, tickets, and more. Simply visit stagewhispererpod.com. Our theme song is Maniac by Jazzar. Other music on this episode provided by Jazzar and Billy Murray. You can also become a patron of our show by logging on to patreon.com/stagewhispererpod. There you will find all the information about our backstage pass as well as our tip jar. Thank you so much for your generosity. We could not do this show without you. (upbeat music) ♪ Take care anywhere near your town ♪ ♪ Break me down ♪