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Two presidents and a vice president take their message to the people. But is it personal attacks that the voters want? Plus, five people are charged over the death of Matthew Perry, including someone referred to as the ketamine queen. We're going to look at the rise and the dangers of the drug that killed him. And is an NFL return for Colin Kaepernick in the works. This former coach says it's possible, but it may not be in the position you'd expect. Welcome to Laura Coates Live. I'm Audie Cornish in for Laura tonight. And we're going to talk about this inflection point for the two presidential campaigns. Kamala Harris shares the stage with the person she replaced at the top of the Democratic ticket. GOP nominee Donald Trump breaks out the binders as he tries to talk policy, while behind the scenes, tries to shake up his campaign. His Republican allies have been all but begging him to ditch the insults and go after Harris on the issues. And at first glance, it looked like he may have gotten the message. There he was with his like table full of grocery props and eggs and Cheerios and forget a teleprompter, he had a binder and actually looked down to read it. Pitching to voters has planned to double down on tariffs and eliminate taxes on social security benefits. You know, where it felt like vintage Trump was when he veered into false claims, exaggerations and insult or two for good measure. Here's how he responded when CNN's Elena Treen asked him about allies urging him to stop personally attacking Harris. I think I'm entitled to personal attacks. I don't have a lot of respect for her. I don't have a lot of respect for her intelligence. And I think she'll be a terrible president. I mean, she certainly attacks me personally. She actually called me weird. He's weird. It was just a sound bite. And she called JD and I weird. What's the last name of Kamala? Nobody knew. It's Harris. Nobody knew the last name. I don't even use it because nobody knows who I'm talking about. None of that surprised the Harris team. Even before Trump's remarks, her campaign put out a statement before he stepped on the stage, preemptively slamming it as, quote, "another public meltdown." Now, the vice president has her own tightrope to walk, appearing with President Biden for the first time since he dropped out of the race. And it's a crucial moment for her, right before she delivers a speech outlining her own economic vision. And that's happening tomorrow. But this may have been a taste of how she plans to campaign with Biden and his record. There's a lot of love in this room for our president. And I think it's for many, many reasons, including few leaders in our nation have done more on so many issues, including to expand access to affordable health care, like, than Joe Biden. Folks, I'm an incredible partner in the progress we've made. She can make one hell of a president. So, President Biden showed he doesn't have much to lose on the campaign trail anyway, freely taking a few dates at Trump. With the guy we're running against, what's his name? Donald Dump, or Donald, whatever. Let me tell you what our Project 2025 is. Beat the hell out of them. Joining me now, senior political correspondent for the Wall Street Journal, Molly Ball, former senior communications advisor to Senator Tim Scott's presidential campaign, Matt Gorman, and CNN contributor and New York Times reporter and podcaster, Lulu Garcia Navarro. Welcome to all of you. So, a binder that would make Mitt Romney proud, I think. Yeah, he hasn't proud for that. Yeah, yeah. I know it's silly to poke fun of it, but, you know, it is remarkable because he is a person who believes himself to be great off the cuff, right? Can give these, like, long, stem-winding speeches. And he made this crack this week about being asked to give intellectual speeches by his campaign. So, what did you think of that attempt today? I mean, look, it's probably as good as you're going to get when it comes to kind of sticking to pure policy from Trump. I mean, that's just a fact. It was the first... It was the first... Do you like pure policy? Well, the first eight to ten minutes were pretty on the ball and then he asked questions here and there, but that's probably as good as you're going to get if you're a Republican, whether it's Kevin McCarthy, if you're on a swami, Nikki Haley recently, who've been the ones really pushing a lot of this advice on Trump, if you will. At the end of the day, he's 78 years old. He's not going to change especially now, you know, with some of these changes in his campaign, especially folks from past campaigns who are more likely, I think, to probably enable that Trumpy Trump side of him. Yeah, Lulu. I was about to say that I think they should let Trumpy Trump. I mean, the fact is that this is a man who is of a certain age and he is able to connect with people. We just saw a recent poll that saw him actually his favorability ratings going up to 42% in the Pew poll from 38%. People like Trump who like Trump. People who don't like Trump don't like Trump. Trying to make him sit there and read a binder, it sounded like the worst sort of high school presentation that you could get. It wasn't the kind of Trump that people buy into. So I think the advice is misplaced. But you can't win an election with 42%. And so in order to win the election, he has to, in some way, get the votes of people who don't like him. And so I think the purpose of this advice, I, you know, I understand that Trump doesn't necessarily believe in, you know, the professional political advice. He's always disregarded that in his career. And he thinks he wins when he fights. But the reason for this strategic advice is that he can't win unless he gets some of the votes of people who don't already like him, some people beyond his base. And the thought is that the way he's most likely to get them, particularly considering how unpopular this administration and its policies are, is by making the case on the laws. Let me jump in. Because I think it's interesting that you're making this point as the Trump camp expands with some new hires, bringing back some folks from 2016, like Corey Lewandowski, for example, who was like the original campaign manager. Can you just briefly talk about if that is a significant moment? And people have also talked about Kellyanne Conway may be coming back. What does, is this a sign of panic? Is it just a perennial Trump firing and shake up? Like, what are we looking at? Well, I don't think we know yet exactly what, what else he might do in terms of shaking up the campaign. If this is a preliminary round, or if this is all he plans to do. But Corey Lewandowski literally wrote a book called Let Trump be Trump, to Matt's point. So, and so this is definitely, you know, him going back to the type of advisors who are going to indulge his sort of basis, basis instincts, if you will, and not try to rein him in, not try to get him to be more disciplined. Especially since he thinks he's entitled to it. I think that doesn't help. You know, there was a moment where that stuck out to me, where he's like trying to attack the Democrats' clean energy policies. And in the process, it kind of goes in a very Trumpian direction. You got windmills all over the place and you have birds. You want to see a bird cemetery just go under a windmill. You see thousands of birds dead, the boiled eagle. If you kill an eagle, they put you in jail for years. And yet these windmills knock them out like nothing. And nothing happens to the people. I don't know what to do with that. Like, help me out on a policy aspect. It's also a lengthy diatribe against electric vehicles. You got to think Elon Musk is one great one. We're talking about Elon Musk. Is this a really difficult action? Can I jump in? It's actually a reflection of this tricky walk of being economic populist, right? Like that JD Vance was supposed to bring this kind of like ideology and policy together. But Trump has really never been the policy guy. I think it's a couple things. Number one, the simplest explanation is he needs a crowd. He's better with a crowd that's reacting to his, his riffs and laughing. We were laughing right here talking about bird cemeteries. He needs a crowd to kind of play off. It's like when you hear a comedian in silence a little bit. I think that's number one. Number two, I wouldn't go that deep on it. I think he needs a little bit of a crowd. And you're right. He, when he came on the scene in '16, Erry, when he was kind of safer rather than a run in '12, he has certain themes. China and trade especially are ones that he really can care about taxes or he gets in the weeds on. Some of these other things he'll know just enough to be dangerous and be fluent enough on it. But he won't want to go in the weeds. Yeah, but it means he's vulnerable to the Harris-Walls campaign who can pluck out the lines like this or a thing about, you know, the Hannibal Lecter joke or something about sharks. It made you vulnerable in this scenario in a very edit, clippable internet election. Vulnerable. What I would push back on is vulnerable. How? I want to meet the person who's going to, who's thinking about Trump and not going to vote for him because of the Hannibal Lecter reference or a birth sanitary reference. I think it's a little deeper. Okay, I want to turn to Harris because people have been saying when are they going to roll out her economic vision, will it look different from the Biden campaign? And we have heard some things, right? She's bringing up a federal ban on price gouging, a four-year plan to lower housing costs. First-time home buyers would actually get a tax credit under Harris proposal and pushing for the construction of 3 million new homes. Is this as detailed as people wanted? Does this kind of answer the concern that she was not putting out enough? I think it depends where you're coming from, right? I think from the point of view, I think especially of a lot of economic experts, this is all kind of gimmicky and likely to be counterproductive actually, rather than bringing down inflation, things like price controls and home buying incentives are only likely to push prices further up or make the problem worse. On the other hand, she is offering details. She is offering actual plans, which for all that the Trump campaign has been pushing this theme of what is she actually offering? Where are the specifics? He hasn't been giving a lot of detailed plans either. Right. She is putting me on the box. At least there's the Reduction Act. These are Biden's plans. I mean, these are very progressive plans, the idea of greedflation. This is the idea that what she's trying to propose here is that it was all these companies that were during the pandemic really driving up prices when there were all these problems and taking advantage of the consumer. That is a very common progressive idea that has been championed by a lot of people. And so these aren't new ideas that she's pushing out here. These are ideas that are pretty common on the left. Now, whether you agree with them or you're not, that's a subject of a lot of debates or actually economists who might agree with her. So I don't know that it's exactly that. The problem that she has is the more specific she gives, the more people can come out and say, "No, we don't like it. No, it's wrong. That's the point." I mean, just because it's a truncated campaign doesn't mean you're not going to be... No, I agree that she has to do it. But the bigger problem for her now is that she's been riding this wave, and I think we're about to see that wave crest and coming down to her. Yeah, I think you're exactly right, that as long as she doesn't give specifics, people can sort of see whatever they want and her campaign can say, "Oh, she's going to pivot to the center." But when the rubber hits the road, we see that actually she's proposing these quite progressive ideas, and she really is positioning herself on the left side of the party. One more thing. I love talking policy, but it's hard to ignore the fact that everything is personal with this group of people. You had Trump kind of seeming a little bit upset about being called weird. Like, he keeps coming back to it. And in the meantime, you had President Biden come out and actually sort of take a crack at this, so to speak, using the term "Donald Dump." We're long from the era of Michelle Obama's "When They Go, Low." But where are we? Uh, we're looking for dead silence. Dead silence. Is this a good trajectory? This is modern politics, right? I mean, Biden also, when he did manage to string a sentence together in that debate, Biden spent the whole time calling Trump a sucker and a loser. So it's not exactly new for him to be doing a name calling each. And I remember when I worked for Mitt Romney, he was going to -- Mitt Romney's going to put people back in chains, according to Joe Biden, too. So, like, again, this predates, I think, to Trump era, too. I think history didn't start in 2015, for a much -- Or engine on -- Joe Biden started. Yeah, no, no, I'm singing general. You can see Trump. It bothers him. I mean, you saw with him talking about the weird thing. It bugs him, and you know that when things bug the opponent, you're going to lean in. I'm still shocked that there's not a real nickname for Kamala Harris. There's this constant talking point of butchering the pronunciation of her name. There is still a way of trying to take her name away from her. But does it say something that Trump's old playbook that he used on, like, his Republican challengers or whoever? Like, he just doesn't have the juice for that here? I don't know, I don't think about it that in depth, I'll be completely honest with you. But look, I think it's one of those things where it's less about a nickname and more about a brand. I think Republicans need to figure out how we brand her. I think as we saw it from Joe Biden's research and books that were written about 2020 campaign, the flip flapper is probably the most productive one, but we'll see what they come up with. All right, stay with us because we're going to talk more. Thank you, everybody, because President Biden is actually beginning a farewell tour of sorts, like the crowds are chanting his name during his appearance with Kamala Harris. So we want to talk about what his role could be with her campaign going forward. We're going to do that with Joe Biden's biographer. That's next. Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co-founder of Angie. And one thing I've learned is that you buy a house, but you make it a home. Because with every fix, update, and renovation, it becomes a little more your own. So you need all your jobs done well. For nearly 30 years, Angie has helped millions of homeowners hire skilled pros for the projects that matter. From plumbing to electrical, roof repair to deck upgrades. So leave it to the pros who will get your jobs done well. Hire high quality certified pros at Angie.com. They say opposites attract. That's why the sleep number smart bed is the best bed for couples. You can each choose what's right for you whenever you like. You like a bed that feels firm, but they want soft, sleep number does that. You want to sleep cooler while they like to feel warm, sleep number does that too. You have to feel it to believe it. Find the bed that's for both of you, only at a sleep number store. Sleep better together. JD Power ranks sleep number number one in customer satisfaction with mattresses purchased in store. And now sleep number smart beds starting at $999. Prices higher in Alaska and Hawaii. For JD Power 2023 award information, visit jdpower.com/awards only at a sleep number store or sleepnumber.com. And today we take the next step. Thank you, Joe. Forward in our fight. Thank you, Joe. Thank you, Joe. Thank you, Joe. Thank you, Joe. Thank you, Joe. Those cheers mark the start of the long goodbye from voters to President Biden. For the first time since dropping his bid for reelection, the president was side by side with Vice President Kamala Harris at a campaign rally. Harris hugged her boss, then Biden took the mic and spoke for some 20 minutes doing exactly what he had been doing before his VP vaulted to the top of the ticket, vowing to do everything he could to beat Donald Trump. You may have heard about the Maggie Republican Project 2025 plan. Let me tell you what our Project 2025 is. Beat the hell out of him. So we are watching, in real time, the burnishing of Biden's legacy, a 50-year political career with this chapter, at least, ending in a single term presidency. Here to discuss biographer Chris Whipple, he's the author of a great book. It's called The Fight of His Life Inside Joe Biden's White House. Chris, that is an evergreen title. Good to be with you. Good to be with you. You had no idea how apt it would be. Yeah, yeah, you know, I was just talking about burnishing the legacy, and we'll get to that in a moment. Can I just get your reaction to what it was like seeing Biden out there being, as you called it, kind of the wingman to Kamala Harris? Yeah, I thought they were really effective today. I mean, where was that Joe Biden three weeks ago? You know, they weren't, it wasn't Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers, but they sure did not put a false foot forward. And to just think about how far Joe Biden has come in the last few weeks. I mean, here's a guy who stepped away reluctantly from a second term as president, or at least the possibility of it, practically at gunpoint. And here he is, a short time later, acting as the gracious wingman for Kamala Harris, cracking jokes like Rodney Dangerfield. I mean, they were pretty bad jokes, but the whole thing was, I thought, effective and charming, particularly in contrast to what somebody called the, you know, the tired Nickelodeon rerun of Donald Trump. So I thought that was a good performance today. He's set to speak at the Democratic National Convention. We heard those chants of thank you, et cetera. Sources tell CNN that he's actually not planning to take part in any other events. So what do you think the mindset is going into this week? Well, his legacy really begins with his speech on Monday, and I have little doubt that he will rise to the occasion. You know, I think that barring some really unexpectedly disruptive protest against Gaza, which could happen. I think this is nothing but upside for Joe Biden. I think he goes in there. And he, first of all, he basks in the adoration of his party, which is something Lyndon Johnson never had, by the way, in 1968. He couldn't go anywhere near Chicago during the Vietnam War. And then he can, he can celebrate his accomplishments, which are considerable tee up Kamala Harris's presidency. And I think he, you know, then has to basically underline the, what he calls the existential threat that's on the ballot in 2024, represented by Donald Trump in autocracy. And if he can do all that with a sense of humor, without getting too dark, I think he wants to, you know, maintain the spirit of joy that Kamala Harris is running on. I don't want to undermine what you're saying here, but there, of course, there's been so much reporting about the rifts between him and, for instance, the former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi. And fundamentally, he didn't leave because he wanted to, right? He left because he was being told he couldn't win. Are there still hurt feelings there? Is that something you're encountering as you're still doing reporting? Well, look, undoubtedly there's real, there's a really fraught dynamic going on between Biden and Pelosi. She's talked about it. She said that she prays that their friendship will somehow survive this. I think it will. He'll get over it. I don't think that's going to be a problem for Joe Biden in Chicago next week. Nancy Pelosi, I think, will not be the issue. And I think that one thing is really clear. This Joe Biden made this difficult decision on his own in the end. I mean, his inner circle was willing to go out and die on that hill with him. He made this courageous decision. And it's clear that he really has nothing but goodwill toward Kamala Harris. He doesn't blame her for anything. Well, the situation may be unusual in terms of how she came to be at the top of the ticket. It's not unusual for a vice president who is running to be president to have to, like, bob and weave around the record, right? Like, how do you deal with the shadow of the guy next to you? How do you look at this and compare to some of kind of comparative experiences? Well, it was disastrous for youbert Humphrey, the Democratic nominee in 1968 after a horrible Chicago convention when blood ran on the streets. I'm old enough to remember that. I was a kid watching it in shock. For Kamala Harris, I think it's a much easier proposition, which is not to say that it's simple. But I -- But I'm even thinking of an Al Gore, right? Or, like, it just feels like there are other kind of moments we can look back to and say, "Yeah, how do you make this person an effective messenger?" Well, I think she started to do that already. And she certainly did it on the subject of Gaza when, right after Benjamin Netanyahu was here, she went out, not Joe Biden, but she went out in front of the cameras and she said quite forcefully, "I will not be silent." So she's already started to strike out on her own in that respect. And I think she's also going to be talking a lot about bringing prices down, something Joe Biden was reluctant to acknowledge the fact that, you know, prices are high. So I think we're already starting to see that. And I think she's going to be able to take distance herself enough so that she will be her own person. Chris Whipple, thank you so much for your insights. We appreciate your time. My pleasure. Now, Donald Trump has repeatedly tried to say that Project 2025 has nothing to do with him, but news secretly recorded video shows that one of its key authors was talking about preparing for a second Trump term. We have that footage next. I expect you to hear ten more times from the rally, the president, you know, distancing himself from the left, booking you in a Project 2025. I don't know why you got that. No, really. You have the radical left, didn't you have the radical right? And they come up with this, I don't know what the hell it is. It's Project 25. He's involved in Project, and then they read some of the things that they are extreme. I mean, they're seriously extreme, but I don't know anything about it. Donald Trump has always denied being part of Project 2025, but tonight, secret video captured on hidden camera shows a co-author of Project 2025 linking Trump to it. The new video obtained by CNN shows Russell Vote speaking about this controversial blueprint for a second Trump term, and saying Trump's disavowal of it, well, that will be just politics. CNN's Kyung Law has more. Our father, who art in heaven, would be my name. You are looking at secretly recorded video of Russell Vote, a former cabinet member in the Trump administration. This year has been predominantly now getting ready for a year five of a Trump administration. We have 350 different documents that are regulations and things of that nature. Vote, the platform policy director for the Republican National Committee, says he is building the plan for Trump's second term. I don't know what the hell it is, it's Project 25. Trump publicly disavowed Project 2025, a conservative blueprint for his administration if he gets reelected. But in private, Vote said that's just politics. The details of the real plans are secret and based on Trump's own beliefs. Notwithstanding, I expected to hear ten more times from the rally, the president, you know, distancing himself from the left, booging me at Project 2025. And you don't worry about that. And so I see what he's doing is just a very, very conscious distancing himself from a brand. He's very supportive of what we do and know that we have an all manner of things that we do that's, you know, even unrelated to Project 2025. Sure. Vote has been a mastermind behind expanding the powers of the presidency. Some of those policy proposals Trump has supported two sources tell CNN. Trump even hosted a Mar-a-Lago fundraiser two years ago for the group Vote Founded, the right-wing Center for Renewing America. He's been our organization, he's raised money for our organization, he's blessed it. In this hotel suite, Vote thinks he's talking to family members of a wealthy donor. But one is a journalist, the other an actor working undercover for the UK-based Center for Climate Reporting. The center provided the video to CNN on the condition we blur their faces so they can continue their undercover work. The conversation covers a host of issues, like abortion and how his position differs from Trump. He talks about rape, incest, life and mother. I don't actually believe in those exceptions. I want to get to abolition, but I also, we've got to win elections. And so I want to get as far as we possibly can. His view of who should be an American. So I want to make sure that we can say we're a Christian nation. And my viewpoint is mostly that I would probably be Christian nationism. That's pretty close to Christian nationalism. If we're going to have legal immigration, can we get people that actually believe in Christianity? Is that something or do we have to have, you know, we're now allowed to have questions about Sharia law. What can we see America looking like, I guess? I mean, an ideal world. I mean, I think we could save the country in a sense of the largest deportation in history. And even pornography. We'd have a national ban on pornography, if we could, right? But the most striking of vote statements has to do with presidential power. George Floyd obviously was not about race. It was about destabilizing the Trump administration. It's the left belief that structures in society are the problem. Pulling society down for purposes of revolution is exactly what they want. And what you're seeing at college campuses is a part of that as well. The president has, you know, the ability both along the border and elsewhere to maintain law and order with the military. A major part of vote's plan is turning thousands of career federal jobs into political appointments. Meaning workers could be fired if they're not sufficiently loyal to Trump. 80% of my time is working on the plans of what's necessary to take control of these bureaucracies. I want to be the person who crushes the deep state. I think there's a lot of different ways to do that. It is defunding it, its impoundment, the ability to not spend money, it's getting rid of their independence. Even as vote talks about the so-called deep state, he claims his group is forming its own to take over on day one. We are trying to create a shadow office of management budget, a shadow national security council, and a shadow office of legal council. These are the main organs in government that you need outside to create the battle plan. And you're not going to publish those? No. They're going to strike them. Yeah, they're very, very close old. We are hearing from both the Trump campaign and Russell votes organization in response to the video. A spokesperson for a votes group is downplaying the video saying vote has spoken about these same topics publicly, telling CNN quote, "Thank you for airing our perfect conversation emphasizing our policy work is totally separate from the Trump campaign." And the Trump campaign says only President Trump and the campaign represent policies for the second term. Adi? Thank you so much. Now, a head charges against five people in connection with the death of Matthew Perry, doctors, dealers, and an assistant. Prosecutors say they all took advantage of the actor's addiction issues. We'll have more on that next. They say opposites attract. That's why the sleep number smart bed is the best bed for couples. You can each choose what's right for you whenever you like. You like a bed that feels firm, but they want soft. Sleep number does that. You want to sleep cooler while they like to feel warm. Sleep number does that too. You have to feel it to believe it. Find the bed that's for both of you, only at a sleep number store. Nine out of ten couples say that they sleep better on a sleep number smart bed. Only sleep number smart bed lets you choose your ideal comfort and support, your sleep number setting. Sleep number smart beds automatically respond and adjust to your movements so that you sleep comfortably all night long. Beat the summer heat. Temperature balancing, bedding, like true temp bedding, is designed to move heat and humidity away. So you sleep just right. Can't agree on temperature? The sleep number climate 360 smart bed lets you adjust up to 30 degrees cooler or warmer on either side. So you can be polar opposites in the same bed. Sleep better together. JD Power ranks sleep number number one in customer satisfaction with mattresses purchased in store. And now sleep number smart bed starting at $999. Prices higher in Alaska and Hawaii. For JD Power 2023 award information, visit jdpower.com/awards only at a sleep number store or sleepnumber.com. On a Monday morning in May, 1992, a 20-year-old woman is murdered in her home. Her husband of just nine days comes home from work and finds his high school sweetheart stabbed to death. Her name is Jennifer Judd. Who killed Jennifer Judd? In this new series, we'll attempt to solve a 32-year-old cold case. Listen to who killed Jennifer Judd on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, the iHeartRadio app, or wherever you get your podcasts. Nearly ten months after the death of actor Matthew Perry, five people are now charged in connection with the overdose that took his life. These defendants took advantage of Mr. Perry's addiction issues to enrich themselves. They knew what they were doing was wrong. They knew what they were doing was risking great danger to Mr. Perry, but they did it anyways. In today's announcement, investigators revealed that they uncovered an underground network of drug sellers and also suppliers. That they allege are ultimately responsible for distributing the ketamine that killed the friend star. The defendants include two doctors, Perry's live-in personal assistant and a person referred to by authorities as the ketamine queen. Three of the five have reached a plea agreement. Perry was found floating face-down in a jacuzzi at his LA home. This was last October. And an autopsy showed that he died of "acute effects of ketamine" and subsequent drowning. So joining me now for some context, Dr. Ben Coley-Johnson, he's a biomedical sciences professor at Larkin University in Miami. And New York Times national correspondent Ernesto Londonio is the author of Trippy, the peril and promise of medicinal psychedelics. So first I want to start with you Ernesto because when we talk about psychedelics and ketamine, where is ketamine on that spectrum of sort of considerations? Sure, there's been a lot of really interesting research into the therapeutic use of ketamine as a psychiatric drug. What researchers have found is that for many patients who have not responded to conventional treatments such as antidepressants, one dose of ketamine or a handful of doses of ketamine can really be transformative in a really short period of time. These can be really fact-acting drugs. However, this whole field has been a little bit of a wild west because this drug is not approved by the FDA as a psychiatric intervention. So right now physicians are prescribing it off-label and the cost remains high. And what this means is that some patients who get a taste of ketamine therapy in a clinical setting then go on to self-edicate acquiring it on the black market where things can go wrong. Dr. Johnson, I want to come to you but just for a little bit of context connected to what Ernesto said, you know at one point Matthew Perry actually kind of denounced ketamine in his memoir saying that it wasn't for him. And that in the end, you know, he described it as being hit in the head with a giant happy shovel. Do people understand the risks of addiction? Or do you think that there's a world of doctors who are not truly forthcoming about them? Thank you for having me on your show. I think the first thing I'd like to make a slight correction to is that ketamine is approved for treatment or depression. And also individuals get ketamine for the treatment of anxiety, for pain and for other disorders. In fact, it's been used experimentally to even help people withdraw from even more powerful drugs. I think that the concern about ketamine has been the unregulated use of ketamine. And in that way, I believe, Ernesto is right and that there hasn't been enough steps to be able to regulate the licensing of clinics to be able to use ketamine properly. And I think that the death of Matthew Perry was obviously a terrible tragedy for us all. But I think that there are important lessons to be learned. I want to talk about those lessons because what's interesting about this case is, as far as I can see from the reporting, he was going to a clinic at a certain point. They stopped or refused him having more of the drug. And then he went and pursued access to more. So what is this gray area of doctors, I guess, who are prescribing in this way? Dr. Benholi? I think that the most important lesson is that ketamine has to be provided in a medically supervised environment. And in clinics that usually give ketamine, they're very careful, almost the ones that are licensed are very careful. And if a patient then starts to use ketamine surreptitiously, that means they start to order ketamine or go to get ketamine outside of the clinical practice. And the doctors are aware of it. They really need to stop the ketamine administration and take it seriously as a deepening addiction. The problem that occurs is that sometimes the doctors are not supervising the patients carefully enough, or they're not paying attention, or they're rather a little bit blase because, you know, ketamine is a schedule three drug. And it's generally, and that lack of attention to patient care is one of the important lessons to be learned from the Matthew Perry case. Ernesto, you know, in your book, you chronicled your personal journey with psychedelic therapy. But what was really fascinating about it is how you kind of got into the world of middling oversight. What's significant about this particular investigation by authorities? Well, I think the FDA has been sending some pretty consistent signals in the past couple of years that they're concerned about the shape of this emerging ketamine medical field. So I think they're trying to pump the brakes on the hype that we've seen around, not just ketamine, but the broader landscape of mind altering drugs in the context of mental health treatment. I think the biggest takeaway for people may be interested in this is, you know, if you're seeing advertising and if you're seeing claims that sound too good to be true, they probably are. And although these compounds and these interventions can be very effective for people who are suffering, I think the crucial piece is what kind of support and what kind of therapy comes alongside these trips. And that I think is where many people, you know, take a shortcut in thinking that the experience in and of itself is going to land them in a better place when in fact healing takes a lot of work and a lot of attention. Well, I want to thank both of you for giving us this context for sharing your expertise, Ben Coley-Johnson, and Ernesto Le Donneo. Thanks so much. Next, Colin Kaepernick hasn't been on the NFL field in eight years, but his former coach has opened the door for him to return, although not in the way you might imagine. We'll explain that next. Could Colin Kaepernick be making a comeback to the NFL? Well, his former 49ers coach, Jim Harbaugh, hope so. In a new interview with USA Today's Jared Bell, he reveals that he offered the quarterback a coaching gig earlier this year. ESPN's Stephen A. Smith had some colorful commentary on whether the proposal has any legs. Take a listen. I think Colin Kaepernick would be a good coach. I think that Colin Kaepernick, if he wants the opportunity, should be the coach. What I would say, however, is I don't want to hear shit about him being a quarterback no more. That ship should have sailed. Not only has it sailed, it should have sailed. I know some people don't want to say it. I will. Okay, so what does Kaepernick think? We're going to ask a reporter who got the scoop. NFL columnist for USA Today, Jared Bell. Jared, this is a great scoop, so just props to you for that. Can you just give us a little context? How did this conversation even come about? Well, you think back to Jim Harbaugh being a big supporter of Colin Kaepernick. Obviously, they're connecting with the 49ers back in 2011, 2012. Jim Harbaugh still has a lot of love for Colin Kaepernick. I was out at Chargers training camp last week and just thought I'd ask him to check his pulse in terms of whether or not he'd been in touch with Kaepernick, whether or not he wanted to do anything in terms of bringing him in in some capacity. When Harbaugh took the job with the Chargers earlier this year, there was rumblings back at that point that hey, maybe Colin Kaepernick would be a guy he'd try to bring in. So basically, I was just trying to find out what Harbaugh was thinking and then he told me he says, hey, we talked about it. And I told him that the door is open and if he wants to go into coaching, then there's a spot here for him to proceed with that. I don't want to create unnecessary suspense. This is spoiler alert. He hasn't gotten a call back yet. That was the thing that Harbaugh also told me. He says, hey, they talked months ago, Kaepernick was going to think about it and that they never reconnected since then. The way I left the conversation with Harbaugh was thinking that it is still a possibility. If not now, maybe in the future, and the thing that Jim Harbaugh was adamant about was saying, hey, I know this is a big decision for him. If this is the path that he wants to take, then I'm here for him. Also, think about this too, Audie. When Kaepernick, who was, let's face it, Blackball from the NFL and was in the process of still trying to play, and as he said recently to Sky Sports, the London-based TV network, he still wants to play. So there's that bridge that's a little bit separate from this, and that was the thing that Stephen A are so eloquently addressed. But the point being that when Kaepernick was out in the wilderness, if you will, Jim Harbaugh had him at the University of Michigan. He had an open workout for him. He just showed nothing but support and love for Kaepernick. I would say Harbaugh actually has a couple other ex-players who are coaching staff as well. He's very loyal in that way. Kaepernick, as we know, has not played since the 2016 season when he began this very high-profile protest against police brutality and racial inequality famously, bending his knee during the national anthem. And I tend to think of his story as this kind of unfinished business, not just the athletics, but of like the NFL's disinterest in talking about those issues. How do you see it? No, no, I think that's a good point, especially when you think about the issue that Colin Kaepernick lost his career over really kind of manifested itself on a larger scale, not long after that with the murder of George Floyd. And the NFL, after the George Floyd situation really kind of came out and said, "Hey, we need to listen more to our players and really embrace them and some of the efforts that they have and some of their concerns." And the NFL actually took steps to try to bridge some of those gaps with its players, except for Colin Kaepernick. Colin Kaepernick had a collusion case against the NFL. It was settled at an undisclosed amount, but it did not result in him getting another opportunity, although there were several teams that thought about it, several teams that kicked the tires on it, it never happened, it never materialized. And I think that's the thing that has to be so frustrating to Colin Kaepernick, especially when he looks to see some of the mediocre quarterbacks out there in the NFL, especially in your backup positions. I think that's the one thing. Yeah, but let me jump in here because I think for those of us who don't follow it as closely, we also see players who are a little bit older, who are getting more time out on the field. It's not so far fetched, but is it basically kind of fantasy at this point, just because sports guys always are very strident in their opinions about these things, but has the ship "sailed". Yeah, I guess the thing that I would love to see as a longtime observer and journalist, I'd love to see him just get a shot. Now, that's not saying that some team, the Chargers, or the team that we're talking about right now would say, "Okay, you're going to come in and be our quarterback." No, we're not talking about that, but we've seen quarterbacks come off the couch and help a team in an emergency situation. The NFL last season had more backup quarterbacks start games because of injuries than at any point in NFL history. So we're talking about the most important position. We're talking about a position that definitely has a high injury rate. So why not take a look at Colin Kaepernick if you think that he can help you in a certain situation? On the other side of the coin, Kaepernick would have to be willing to go into that type of situation just to get back on the field. But this whole idea about maybe joining the coaching staff of the Chargers, I think, if Kaepernick, and I don't know, because we haven't heard from Kaepernick on this particular issue, whether or not he'd even be interested in it, because it's tough to go from being a player to a coach, the long hours coaching. You really have to have dedication for that, so don't know where Colin Kaepernick stands. We'll see if the phone rings for the coach. Jared Bell, thank you so much for your time. Great scoop. And I want to thank all of you for watching. Stay with us. Anderson Cooper 360 is next. They say opposites attract. That's why the Sleep Number Smartbed is the best bed for couples. You can each choose what's right for you whenever you like. You like a bed that feels firm, but they want soft, Sleep Number does that. You want to sleep cooler. While they like to feel warm, Sleep Number does that too. You have to feel it to believe it. 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