(upbeat music) - Good morning, Joe, of course I'm 5'9" of the fan, man, ass, brain gunning. I think I'm on this show for the duration. You know what I think? I haven't looked at the most recent schedule I want to think. Somebody would have told me if I was taking another break from there, saying no, yeah. - I was like, you sure, you sure? - You sure? - No, no, no, no, that's good, you'll bud. - Who knows? - Yeah, I still have never laughed harder than you taking a day of vacation and then texting us the whole night before, like, hey, here's what I'm thinking. And then seeing your face in here, only to realize that you then had to drive home is like one of my favorite things. I'm sure you enjoyed it as well, of like coming home. - Yeah, like I said in the moment, it's like, sucks to have woken up early when you don't have to, but then the relief of not having to work when you think you do is like, it's almost worth it. It's like losing your keys. It's horrible, but almost worth it when you find them. Almost worth it. Anyways, I'm back. - I'm bad for that with like, you know what? I'm actually terrible with this for it. Now, you're like a member at a place of golf, so I don't think this is much of an issue for you. - Real high classes, that was it. - Well, okay, but this still holds is, I don't think I have ever been handed the paper receipt by the person in the pro shop and ever not almost lost it on my way to the starter. Like every time, every time they're like, you have the piece of paper, I'm like, buddy, I put it in a pocket and it went to Narnia. I don't know what happened, okay? So yeah, exactly, I feel. - It must be tough to shop at Costco for you, where you gotta show it on your way out. - Oh, no, no, here's the thing though. It's like the Costco account is in my wife's name. I am a passenger princess at Costco. I roll, I like, we walk in, I tell her to get started. I go grab a slice, and then I meet her there. - You see, I actually wanted to talk to you about this. Costco etiquette, your guy who can obviously help me out here. - I go to Costco literally multiple times a week. - It's a miracle we've not run into each other at the Costco we both frequent. - It's so close, I've never lived this close to a Costco before I changed my life. - Not to brag, I'm close. - Yeah, you are, you're literally on the road, I think. - No, no, I don't think so. I think technically it's not on anyways. But what I was gonna say is, I didn't think anything about this until I did it. So I get the slice of pizza, 'cause I'm a grease monkey, I needed my slice. And most people, I feel like get food on the way out or they like sit there. I was like, I'm gonna go find my wife. And I was just walking around Costco with my pizza, like my slice of pizza. And I didn't think anything of it. I'm like, surely this isn't weird. And then I looked around not one person eating anything that was not free samples. - Yeah. - So is that like a, is that just weird? Is that like a serial killer move? - No, it's close to serial killer move because it's the place where you get the food is after the cash, right? - Yeah, so we walk in, I like walk through the cash and I walk right back. Watch out. - No, I understand how it's possible. I'm just, logistics makes sense. You're just wondering why your brain, yeah, most people's brains are like, I'll shop and it'll be a reward at the conclusion of the shop. - Well, okay, if we're gonna be perfectly honest, I am not beyond getting the slice when we walk in. And then when we walk out, getting another one Sunday. (laughing) - You know what they started, not cookies. - Cookies. - Yeah, yeah, I know. - The cookies is just a joke. - I gotta be honest. - It's a joke. - They better be good considering that it's like-- - You haven't had one? - Well, it's like, it's like, what is it like three times as expensive as-- - Oh! - I gotta be, also this is like, God, I've given you a lot of hot takes and our brief time together here. I'm not the biggest like warm cookie guy. - Okay, I don't know what you're talking about. That's crazy to go. - It's too gooey. - Oh my God! Oh my God, that's crazy. All right, we need to change topics before you embarrass yourself further. - Andy, your friend killed his wife. - Okay, there's a little segment I'd like to debut here. - I can't wait, I'm excited. - And we don't have imaging or anything for it, 'cause I don't know, it might not work, but okay. (laughing) - This is a segment called, yeah, we're just talking here. - Okay, okay. - Say, we're just talking, okay? Some guys, we're just talking about their stuff. What was imaging? I think it would be like a general diner clatter, like maybe a fork on a plane. - Yeah, I don't, yeah, yeah. Maybe, I don't know if that really drives home the point. The point is, it's just like, hey, we're just talking. Can some guys say some things? - Of course. - We're just talking here. - I'm both excited and terrified. - Should John Tavares have been so willing to hand over the sea? Like, we're just talking here. Should he have just been, and I'm sure it was like back and forth in a long discussion, and obviously the best player, that's not the rule. There's no rule that says the best player, the Hall of Fame player, the greatest player in franchise history has to be the captain. That's not in the rules. Lots of times it is not that person, right? You're a leader of men, nobody questions that. You were a captain on Long Island. You took the money, you could have gotten more money in San Jose, you took less money to come to Toronto. You performed, okay? And the performance has dropped off in subsequent years, but what an incredible debut season you had playing with Mitch Marner. You scored the goal that put this team into the second round of the postseason. You've also been the guy that the head coach has been willing to throw under the Vasa times. You and William Nieland are a part of it, might be because you're wearing the sea, but you eat it. You eat it when you maybe shouldn't. And the numbers this year were down. A lot of that coming on the power play, so the top power plays, your final five numbers were not dissimilar in 23, 24 to other years. And this is embarrassing for you. Now I get it, you got the media on your side who's everybody's written the story about how this is the greatest thing you've ever done as a Leaf player is hand over the sea. It's embarrassing for you. You're still a performer at this stage of your career, and you're looking for a contract extension. This is an embarrassing moment. Should John Tavares have been so willing to not just hand over the sea be the guy at the dais and saying, oh yeah, no, listen, I've been the captain, it was my great honor, this guy is so much better than me, like I just think. He's actually made explicitly-- That I do not stink. He made a point of saying, this isn't because of my failure. Yeah, it kind of is though, like if the Leafs had rattled off a bunch of postseason victories, it wouldn't be happening. Do you think this would be happening? Should John Tavares have just fallen on the sword? It's just, again, it's just guys talking. No, I'm talking. We're just talking, we're just talking. I think the problem is that I just disagree with the premise a little bit. I don't think he was that willing. I think this was like, hey, do you want to jump or would you like to be pushed? All, think about the way John Tavares is viewed right now. Today, I'm not talking overall. I'm talking about it in this moment right now, like you said, of everybody writing the story and being on his side, and imagine if it went the other way. And we get a freege comment in like a 32 thoughts pod or something, and he's saying, you know, the Leafs actually strongly wanted to make Matthews the captain this season, but there was some friction between Tavares giving that up, and then he doesn't have a bounce back season where he has 75 points or 80 points. How would Tavares then be viewed in this market? I don't think this was a, I'm happy to do it. Also, reading between the lines a little, but the timeline of it, this was broached in exit meetings, and then they had a conversation in late July with Austin Matthews. So that feels like a guy who needed some time to sit on it and percolate. I don't think there was much willing about this. I think it was, hey, there's an easy way and there's a hard way. What would you like? - So a couple of guys talk and would it not have been, would you not have had a little bit more respect for John Tavares if he took the hard one? He was like, hey man, like I'm not gonna fight you on this, I'm not gonna be a problem, but I'm not gonna be up there. - Did the Blake Wheeler of like, no, I think I should still be the captain of this team and good luck to him. - I think that from his perspective, does that make him look different? Yeah, but I just don't see the light in which it makes him look better. There would have to be, there'd have to be a constituency for that, right? Like even outside of the market, where you would think the people would say good on him, he's gonna stick, it's Austin Matthews that he's giving it up to. - I'll tell you the defense for it. It's like this robot, hockey robot is not-- - Well, I'm sure has like some emotion to his game and you know, he did, when playoffs come around, he, you know, drums up that extra little bit of whatever it takes, sorta. But I mean, this would stamp at home that there's something more to John Tavares than the hockey robot, right? - Yeah, no, they're not wrong. - That he's, man, I'm passionate about this thing that I earned. Wasn't just handed it. Well, I had to earn it. - That's also part of the problem with the damage. - And you're gonna put the last half decade on me? Forget you, I'm not going down, lying down like a dog. And I'm not gonna fight back because I'm still under contract, but guess what? Yeah, like let's open up the trade discussions. Like if you can find something for me to get the hell out of here, 'cause screw you. - Yeah. - Just a couple guys talking. Like is that not, like I can get behind that line of thinking it's different and it's not seamless and you're right, like from a PR perspective for John Tavares, maybe hurt some. - Yeah, have fun being a pred if that's the stance you wanna take. - Okay. - No, no, like I think that that's exactly the scenario you're looking at here. And I think that John Tavares. - We've all had moments in professional life where like we feel disrespected by our bosses and they're like, "Oh yeah, how would it look like if I went over here?" And maybe that's not as glamorous a spot, but yeah, putting your bosses in that type of situation. Couldn't you see it making some sense for John Tavares? - I can see it from a personal, it would feel good perspective. I just, again, it's like, and maybe this goes to exactly what you're saying, that we think of them as just the world's most pragmatic man. It's like you show them all the doors. He could have walked through in this scenario. I could walk through this door and fight it. I could walk through this door and be gracious. I could walk through this door and say, "You know what, if you're gonna take it from me, just trade me that I'll wave the whole thing." I don't think there's a world where any of those scenarios are rosier than the one he's in. - No, no, it's definitely so rosy and he's coming out smelling like a roast, right? - Yeah. - Way to go. - Well, the other kind of warring and it's like-- - I don't disagree. - It plays right into it. - But then you also have two fan bases that, and it wouldn't be the island, but then you have two fan bases that loathe you and you truly are a man with no constituency. - And what are you talking about loathe? - Because if it comes out, if it comes out, let's just worst case scenario, or like most defiant case scenario of this, right, where Trelliven goes to Tavares and says, "Hey, this is Matthew's team. We need to make a change of the captaincy." He says, "No, I don't want to do that. I am not gonna willingly capitulate it. You want to take it from me? Say you're taking it from me and go about that." That pretty much salts away any chance of him returning at the end of that season. So then you might as well say, "Trade me." - Yeah, exactly. Listen, he doesn't become what he is in Long Island, but he wants to make his home here. He wants to make his life. You think he's gonna be seen as some, anything other than a loathe, some figure, if he was seen as to be like clutching on to the captaincy when it's Matthew's they're trying to give it to? - I just defended John Tavares in 23, 24, and I think he's still a valuable player, but wouldn't you rather redistribute his $11 million in 24, 24, 25? - Well, you're not just giving the, you're not just giving the $11 million away. You're eating a part of that money. - Maybe on one year though, right? Like that's the thing. There's lots, there's teams. - There's not a lot of teams looking in the middle. - Not a lot, not a lot, but you're getting something back and it all depends on how much you're getting back in return. - Well, and if you're not, this is the whole thing about eating money. It's like, yeah, if you turned John Tavares into a $5 million player, then yeah, that's a very different thing, but then you have the $5 million on your books that you can't use and then you're probably trading him for an asset of a $6 million player or whatever. And then are we sure the $6 million center that you're gonna get is better than what you're getting for Tavares? - I would say that there's a non-zero possibility of whatever trade you could have made with John Tavares willing to accept a move to some other place, makes you a better team in 24, 25. - I'm not ruling out the possibility of that, but I'm as far as I'm certain. - Especially if you have the whole off season, right? This conversation happened immediately following? - More or less, yeah, it seems that way, yeah. - The seven game series lost the Boston Bruins. He says, screw you, trade me? Oh, that changes my off season quite a bit. If it's like before free agency, I'm Brad for 11. - Yeah, it does, I just, I also think from Tavares' perspective, like if you're digging your heels in that way, you're probably not saying, send me anywhere. You're probably saying, yeah, I'll wave, tell me what you got. And that is probably the exact same situation they found themselves in with the other guy. - Yeah, it's totally fictional. - No, no, hey. - Because that's not his, I could see it from the other guy, right? I could see Mitch Marner saying, screw you. - Oh, I thought you were gonna say if Matthews was in town and they tried to take it a month. He would just go, he'd just leave. He'd just be like, we're avoiding the contract. - No, this is obviously the way it was gonna play out with John Tavares' sweetheart that he is. And there's a lot to be respected in the way he handled it. - No, I like that. That was a good debut topic on some guys talking. - There's some guys talking. No, we're just talking here. - Sorry, sorry. We didn't have him changing, so I forgot. We're just talking here. - All right, we're done just talking here. - Okay. - Now we're just gonna continue talking on those sports races. - Just regular talking as opposed to just talking. - Mentioned earlier in the T's that we didn't pay off last segment that according to ESPN's Jesse Rogers, majorly baseball considering a rule that would force the starting pitcher to go at least six innings. - Unless, like there's some different caveats for the couple that have been discussed, pitcher throws a hundred pitches, gives up four or more earned runs or he gets injured and requirement being that if he gets removed from a start because he's injured, he has to go on the injured list to avoid manipulation of this thing. So, this would obviously not be, they're not gonna do it like right now. Or next season or like the season after that, this is a, 'cause this would be a process you'd have to get everybody ready for. And you would, I don't know, you'd have to give it like a half decade lag time. It feels like all your prospects would have to be with this mentality that this is, when you're drafted as a starting pitcher, this is what this means is you gotta build up your innings and be able to go six innings and a hundred pitches. And sorry, if that means you can't go max velocity for a hundred, so much the better. - Yeah. - So it's supposed to accomplish multiple things. One of them is actually less in pitcher injuries because starting pitchers in theory wouldn't be going max velocity. - I would counter that with like they're probably gonna try. - Yeah. (laughing) - And it's not gonna work out so well. And secondarily to this, I think this one is obviously true that offense and action in the game would be improved. 'Cause you just do not see starters three times in a game and oh God forbid four. Like that's not so cuckoo bananas. And honestly, you wanna do some digging around when Vlad was on his incredible hit streak. And like Joe DiMaggio's numbers when he was on his 56 gamer and Joe DiMaggio routinely would face a starter for the fourth time in a baseball game. - Not. - It just, it does not happen. - Easily you go. - Well and granted pitchers weren't throwing as hard back then too, like so much is different. But that's the number one thing is the number of times you face a starting pitcher because any baseball player will tell you that it and the numbers bear this out to like an insane degree. It's why we have what we have. It's why we have Jose Barrios. And you say cuckoochie in a start against the Minnesota Twins, right? - Yep. - Makes sense to you. Six innings, forcing a starter. I mean the other thing was like, "Hey, you lose your DH, the double hook rule." But this is, first time I've ever seen this. Gotta go six innings as a starter. - I was a little surprised. One of the caveats wasn't a pitch limit within an inning. Like if you reach a threshold of something, I guess you're at the four runs probably then by that point. Like they assume the two things will kind of take care of themselves there. I like the idea of there being a thought of a way to change this. You know, it harkens me back to the days of like those NHL development camps where none of the ideas were good. They were all terrible. Like we had the like the nets that were all belong shaped and not straight. But I like the idea of trying things. The pitch clock was a radical idea when it first came in. And it dare I say is the greatest change ever made since like the forward pass in football to any sport from a watchability kind of standpoint. So I think it does make sense. I do think the thing that we will ultimately bump up against it, which we don't like is, and you know, what's a manager in 2024 really. But this takes away the feel of the game when there are these ardent rules and rigidity to it. I don't, I'm not saying that means that we shouldn't look into this or this isn't a good idea. But generally speaking, when you take away a team's ability to manage the game or play the way they want, I just, I don't like those types of rules. But I do like the idea of baseball trying to find a way to just have more action in the game, quite frankly, and keep some of these pitchers healthy. - No, that's a good point that like, as long as, again, the starter allows fewer than four runs that there's no decision to be made. Like we, I think we can all agree that the most valuable decision-making skill that a manager has is when to go to his bullpen. - 100%. - How to use the bullpen. - Who comes in, yeah. - Who comes in and you take that away in the first six innings. But yeah, I think, - It'd be tough for old guys. It's like they lost the National League and everything with the double switching and everything. - And it's, yeah, it would have to be a rule that continues with the postseason. You obviously can't have like different rules and the playoffs and different rules in the regular season. - But I still think it's, I find it hard to find the downside to this thing. I was watching, I was watching Red Sox Orioles yesterday and Nick Pavetta was getting banged up a little bit, but like not too bad. He gave up a couple of home runs. He went five, he threw 90 pitches over five innings against the Orioles, giving up only three earned runs. And I was like, oh, he would have had to come back for the sixth inning under these circumstances. The Orioles would have had another opportunity just one more and he could have been knocked out of the game. But even that, like adding a little intrigue, oh, in 10 pitches, does he use that up in a couple of batters? And I don't know, do we start to care about pitcher wins again because it's actually something meaningful? Anything that gets us back to the era, like I don't begrudge anybody making the decisions that make in baseball right now because the numbers just bear it out. It's just, it's too obvious. What you do, you have to force people back into their old thinking or take away their numbers, or force them not to make the smart move. Because the smart move is always, don't let your starter-faced guy from the thorough fryer. - Got a guy that was a hundred? Are you insane? - I just, I had to chuckle because I had a thought that there's a non-zero-percent chance we got like reverse softball rules there where Alex Coris says to Pavetta, like, okay, this sounds insane. You got a groove in one here. We need to get you into this game. It's like you're not protecting the homers. In fact, you're like pitching to them. It's like, we got to get this guy out of here. We got it. We have a three-run lead. It's worth it to give up the run now, get him out. It is like fascinating to see that 'cause that's the thing. Like we do this in all sports at all times. We implement a rule. We think it's going to play out. More times than not, it plays out in mostly the fashion we expect, but there's always little kind of wrinkles that come out of this thing. - Yeah, Major League Baseball has been very open to change. There's a clock which is nuts. I can't, my younger self, believing what Major League Baseball is now and how successful it's been. Honestly, the pitch clock, nobody's had a bad word to say about the pitch clock now. Maybe the pitcher is who believed that it's resulting in the injuries, but I don't think there's enough evidence to suggest that's the case. Change the size of the bases, no shift. - Yeah, a lot of world. - The gloves are off when it comes to changing things in Major League Baseball. This would be a fundamental one because like I said, it would go well below the surface and you'd have to change the way you do business. - What does it do to the careers of somebody like you say Kakuchi, right, who like even his best outings are six and get out of it. - Yeah, no. - He's the great, great case study in this thing because you know what he is? - A long man. - Yeah, well, he would have to continue chugging along and complete six innings or throw 100 pitches. Now, sometimes the command is such that he does throw 100 pitches, but yeah, no, he's a great case study in this. - Like a million other guys that fit that mold, but it's like he just comes top of mind for sure. - Ray gun. - Oh, God. - So does the Australian breakdancer, of course? - Dr. Ray gun, she has PhD in breakdancing. - It's like modern movement, basically what they would call it. Yeah, no, it's great. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - She's been meme to death. - Mm-hmm. - She got zero points in her performance. - By the way, too many to be perfectly honest. They can't do negatives. - Did you watch the breakdancing competition? Like did you see Phil Wizard who was un-freaking believable? - I didn't watch it, but I've seen like the highlights of it and yeah, he's been around on his head and it was crazy. - It was before, I want to say the gold medal game of the basketball, they showed it like, so we missed the first couple of minutes of the first quarter USA and France, which I was fine with because Canada won a gold medal. - And breaking. - And it was unbelievable. So there was, yes, it's not coming back in four years. We can make fun of breakdancing and maybe it should, maybe it shouldn't be an Olympic sport who cares. Like there was an incredible, there were incredible performances in that event. - For sure. - Ray gun, not one of them. - Well, no, I disagree, incredible in its own way. - Yeah, she got zero points. - Yeah, she seems like too many. - She looked like, I don't know, your child. You're like, "Hey, what does breakdancing look like?" - The hottest memes in the show. I did see a great one of her basically doing like it's the, like she looks like she's doing the thriller dance and it's me trying to sneak upstairs after a few too many garage beers. Like, yeah. - Ellie's, she's been meme to death and I'm sure there's been like some hurtful comments. I think generally everything I've seen has been in jest and like, this is ridiculous, but nobody, I mean, I guess there was a petition, a change.org petition saying like she's embarrassed us and like, did she go through the proper channels here and did she qualify earnestly through Oceania? Anyways, Ray guns had enough of that. She finally is speaking forward and yesterday I said, I didn't realize that that would also open the door to so much hate, which has frankly been pretty devastating. But I went out there and I had fun. I did take it very seriously. I worked my butt off preparing for the Olympics and I gave my all truly. All right, should we stop being so mean to Ray gun? - Absolutely not. Like anybody who's sitting here like death to Ray gun, like earnestly, yeah, settle down, but who's doing that? We're all saying this is an embarrassment, this is a joke. I will, like my take on it is the greatest thing that ever happened to breaking in Olympic history. I know it's done now, but sorry. Like we've seen guys spin around on their heads before. Yeah, like no disrespect, but it's like, yeah, okay, I got it. That's what good break dancing looks like. - I haven't seen what Phil Wizard. - What Phil was unbelievable. - I have some recollection of like break dancing being more of a thing in like movies I watched as a child. I feel like I was gonna like encounter it more in the wild. There's like the quicksand of dancing. I'm like, why isn't it just out there everywhere? But I look at it and like, yeah, anybody who's like, of course like, oh, you know, death or whatever. Any of course, but those people are idiots. Just don't listen to them. The all of the memes and everything. Like if she doesn't turn this into hosting like whatever Australia's version of the view is or, you know, breakfast, television or whatever. Like in what world? There, I understand people, maybe Australians are like embarrassed by this. Okay, grow up. She should be on the public broadcaster. Like if this was a Canadian, I need Ray Gunn on my summer games coverage next year. She's not a Canadian. If they don't want her in Australia, bring her over. I'd love to hear what Ray Gunn has to say about this stuff. I think it's hilarious. This is the beauty of the Olympics. Grand scheme of things showed out to the wizard. Who cares who wins breaking gold? Who cares who wins just about any of these medals unless it's somebody from your country that you care about? It's great for them, but for all of us, it's just fodder. It's just fun. And nothing can be more fun than that. And, and most importantly, you dance like an idiot. We got to make fun of your story. You never watched Seinfeld, still doing Elaine jokes. Like, if you, yeah, if you don't want people to, to criticize or analyze or dancing, literally it's a judge sport. Like, just go dance in your base. Well, and also this is like a all sports thing. You don't like it. Dance better. Yeah, well, you got zero points. Zero. It's not, it's not like, well, you guys didn't understand breaking. Okay. She actually did some things and the breaking community respects her. It's like zero points. What are we talking about? Anybody, the internet's been all over this. Did anybody do the Sam Mitchell over top of her video? Zero, zero, zero, zero, zero. Yeah. Yeah, you're right to add the caveat. There's obviously some crazy nuts, especially when you're this famous and you have this viral a moment. It's not what we're talking about. I think generally, like the coverage has been like, yeah, in, in, in good fun. Yeah. And I think anybody, if they had Ray Gunn on the line, like on a radio show would be treated as such. I don't think the first question would be, how could you to the people of Australia? I don't think so. Maybe, maybe she's a national embarrassment. Question, would you feel differently? Like, let's pretend Ray Gunn was Canadian. And it was like Beavertale was the name or something. I don't know, whatever the Canadian name would be. But would you feel like I wouldn't be sitting here talking about what an embarrassment to the country is? I'd be a little confused how she ended up in that spot. I would have questions about all that, sure. But I wouldn't be a little confused. I wouldn't be embarrassed for my country. I got some things that make me feel that way. I don't know. You know, now that you say it, I don't know, we are very, we're very sensitive as a nation, right? Because it's like, yeah, we're cool. And actually, you know what, the more I think about it, we're still trying to run away from the drone scandal. So you're like, this is the worst thing in the game. How could they? It is. I do. I would like to know exactly how she did qualify. Well, this is a good thing. If she, that was the best she could do. She got zero points. But you would have think that you was required to get a point during qualification. I'm so upset I even know this. But like, there has been the misinformation, I guess, of her, like basically rigging the panel. Not true. Not true, but I don't know. Like, panel, step forward, explain yourself. Yep. Anyways, yeah, Reagan, sorry. You enter a dance competition. People can criticize your dancing. How is no Australian, like, woman break dancer thrown down the gauntlet like this, what we got? Yeah. Maybe that is out there in the breaking community that I'm just showing yourselves. Show. Yeah. Show yourselves. Maybe that's the best you've got, Australia. Maybe. Eat it. I gotta be honest, I don't think of this. Maybe this is totally... I don't think of them as a great dancing nation. I don't know. Think of, like, you know, Spain, and places like that, and like South American. Get a little... You're doing something grossy as your shoulders. I don't know. You don't like that a little shimmy shake? Please stop. I'm gonna keep doing it. All right. You're gonna somehow make that end. All right, when we come back, we'll talk to our Lisa story and Damon Cox as the fan morning show continues. Ben and his spread gunning sports F5 night of the fan. Unrivaled insight, analysis, and opinions on all things Blue Jays. Blair and Barker. Be sure to subscribe and download the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. (upbeat music) - Fan morning show, four step five, nine of the fan bananas, and Brent gunning. - Blair. Gonna be talking about Blue Jays stuff. - Mm-hmm. - Later on, we'll talk to Adnan Burke after eight o'clock, Blue Jays returning to action. They were at Riggly to play the Cubs this afternoon. Three afternoon games at Riggly still yet to go to Riggly. I've got a really good list of Major League ballparks that I've attended. Riggly is at the tippy top of the ones that I have not attended. - And we'll talk about Blue Jays and Vlad and Will Wagner. How exciting that is, not really. But like, we'll do our best. But what was amazing was when the Maple Leafs dropped a nugget. It was more than a nugget. Austin Matthews being named the next captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs to discuss this matter is our Leafs historian Damien Cox and Toronto star contributor. How's it going? - Hey, I was at Riggly the other day. - Are you serious? - I am serious. - Ah, man, I'm so jealous. Who did you see? Who are they playing? - Oh, God, yeah. - Wow, oh, were you a lead turn? My goodness, Wigglyville. - Yeah, you were making the beer cup snake. - Oh, no, no, they were playing the Minnesota's. I'm not sure, I'm not sure. 'Cause, I mean, I'm like a lot of the Toronto Baseball fans. If the Blue Jays stayed out, I kind of fade out. So it wasn't like I was really clued in. - Okay. - I know the Cubs are not, I know the Cubs are not good, but not as bad as the White Sox. - Yeah. - It was a great experience. I took the, I was with my daughter. We were doing a cross-continental trip. She was moving to Vancouver, so we saw all kinds of stuff through South Dakota and Montana and all that. But we went to Chicago way and we took the subway up to Wiggly and had the whole full Wiggly experience. So it was fun. - That's great. Yeah, no, I, my kid is very much at the like, traveling to baseball, parks, age, and he wants to do that. And I would, Wiggly's at the, to be top of my list, like I said, this is the summer of Damien. - That sounds awesome. (laughing) - You got a pocket dial from me. - Yeah. - You got to take a cross-country trip. Like honestly, what else could you have possibly wanted? - I thought we weren't, I thought we weren't going to talk about that anymore. - Yeah. - We're going to let that, no, you know what? A tip though, when you go, which I didn't realize. So first of all, I like Fenway better. Fenway to me is a little more. - Interesting. - Yeah, a little more authentic. Like Wiggly's really been dulled up. - And what was the last time you were at Wiggly? Because Wiggly has been renovated as well, right? - Yeah, well, no, I'd never been at Wiggly. - I'm sorry, sorry, Fenway. - Sorry, when was the last time you were at Fenway? - I was at Fenway actually for a tour during the winter. - Oh. - When I was down there, when I was down in Boston. And they still have original seats in there. I mean, it's really quite something. And, but the amazing they at Wiggly, of course, is like they have, they have those seats across the street on buildings, across the street that they sell. And this was a nothing game and it was packed. And I just think, I think Fenway as a ballpark has a few more nooks and crannies that I was able to see and a few more interesting bits and teases. And definitely has some pillars to make sure when you buy your tickets, you know, where you're sitting exactly, but that was great. - Yeah, that's cool. - Yeah, I went to Fenway in 18. And I remember it had that still vary, just like old, but it wasn't just the ballpark that felt old. The neighborhood around it. It didn't feel like it was super spruced up. So, yeah. - Well, I have to tell you guys, I know this is what we're-- - Who cares? - It's August. - It's August. - It's great. - I was sitting there in Wiggly and I was thinking, you know, I wonder what would have happened if they'd never torn down, or if they'd never moved out of Maple Leaf Gardens. And, or if they'd never torn down the old Chicago stadium, or if they'd kept the farm going, would they now be viewed in, and could they have done things to those arenas that would have made them hockey's Wrigley and hockey's Fenway? And they could have charged, look, if they'd kept playing, well, they still are playing at Maple Leaf Gardens. It's just under another name and done in a different way. And they could have charged whatever they want for a unique fan experience in a stadium in Arena that would have been unlike any other in the NHL. Instead, we have an NHL where all the arenas are all exactly the same. - No, they are exactly the same. And what would the NHL have been if they'd kept a couple of ranks? - But that wave of madness that went through it that it's got to be bigger, better, more expensive, more boxes, more everything, just completely obliterated an entire generation of wonderful, old ranks. - That's a great point, right? Why don't we do it? We have MSG, but MSG, to your point, has been renovated, like, hugely, right? - Oh, yeah. - Yeah, you could have kept the facade, you could have kept the just, even if it's just the address of Maple Leaf Gardens, and you just build, build, build. And I guess the capacity is the big thing, right, Damien? That there's just, there's so many thousands and millions of dollars to be made off fans by increasing capacity. 'Cause what was Maple Leaf Gardens? It was less than 20,000, right? I got it. - Oh, absolutely, it was about, it was somewhere between somewhere south of 17,000. But what do they get down to the new place now, 18, 19, or whatever they get in there? But the point is like, you could have charged people whatever you want. - God, you're so good at this, Damien. 16, 307 was the capacity. And you said just under 17, you really are a leaf story. - Yeah, I only spent a lot of nights there. I mean, I spent a lot of time to say it. - Oh, I hope you didn't spend the nights counting the seeds. I hope you're gonna do something else. (laughing) - There were nights, there were nights I spent counting the seeds, believe me. I saw some badly teams, probably saw some good news. Anyway, so that's it, being as, yeah, maybe thinking even now when, you know, my kids were playing minor hockey, they're great old rinks and Stratford Ontario and different places where you go in and go, wow, this is amazing, this is so cool. It's so different than a lot of things. And, but that's all been lost now. It's gone. And I don't know how long Wrigley stays, but there's no, there's nobody talking about replacing it. I don't know how long Fenway stays. I mean, that place is really held together with like twine and band-aids. But they, every, I don't know, I don't hear anybody calling for a new ballpark in Boston. - No, there would be a revolt, I think, if they decided to build a new one, it feels like, although they did it with the ballpark that Babe Ruth built, right? And old Yankee Stadium and built one across the street. So I guess anything's possible. - Well, and everybody loves that ballpark compared to the old one. - No, they don't. - Yeah, that's probably right. - And you know, you could have done things, look, even with this new wave of NHL arenas, they could have done different and interesting things. They just chose not to. The focus was on size, and particularly number of luxury suites, you can jam in this thing. That's all they were interested in. And I just think it would be wonderful to be able to go back to the old Maple Leaf Gardens or the old St. Louis arena. I mean, I was lucky I was in a mall, you know, and see how much closer he works to the ethics than you are now. - Well, and you'd even hear stories or, well, I mean, I feel like it was like your stories I read hearing about these things. But like, oh, the dead spot in the boards and the home team knows where to, and I get it. Like we want everything as fair as can be now, or you know, you'll hear the stories of, oh, the visitors bench was lower, so the lactic acid would build up more. And I love those stories. I don't know that we could do it. Like, I don't know how accepting we'd be of that in 2024, where you want everything kind of by the book. But even those little like kind of magic things of arenas of yesteryear, we just kind of lost it all. - My favorite story was always from an NHL player, but NHL rinks was always Wendell Clark, who was one of my favorite guys always to deal with. And because he was, well, he just had his own point of view, and it was a distinctly Western Canadian point of view a lot of the time. And he believes that at one point, you could have put him blindfolded at center ice and in any NHL arena. And Mike Smell, he could have told you what arena he was in. And I think that's cool. And now, you know, I guess they all smell, they all smell like money, so that's the way it is. - I feel like Rico or whatever they're calling it, where the Marley's play now has to smell Coca-Cola. - Yeah, sorry. - No, no, no, you can't smell the horses anymore, like you can't even. (laughing) - Well, and you know what, there's another, a great example, and we'll see what's gonna happen with the women's play, with the PWHL, but they can play in arenas that are still out there that are a little bit different. But you know, even in that last winter, I was in the arena at Northeastern University in Boston. And this is the oldest, longest public arena in North America, in the world, and they're tearing it down. Because they wanna build a new arena. This was the original home of the Boston Bruins. - Wow. - And they are, and if you go in there, you go, oh my, this is amazing, they're tearing it down, because Northeastern needs a new facility to compete with other schools in that area to draw the hockey players they want. - Well, you can't compete with the inexorable March of Progress, Damien. - I guess that's true. That's what they call it. - I've heard that, I've heard that. (laughing) - All right, you mentioned what-- - Which is why I'm here. What's that? (laughing) - All right, as you mentioned, Wendell Clark, he, of course, famously wore the sea. Now Austin Matthews does the same. How much does this matter, Damien? - Uh, not. - At all? - Not, doesn't not matter. No, no, no. - No, really? - Does it not matter? Wait, it doesn't matter? You double negative. - Yeah. (laughing) - It doesn't matter. My favorite, I saw some conversation yesterday saying, "Well, is this gonna cost, is this mean Matthews won't score as many goals?" With this weight of leadership now upon him, you know, he'll play whatever he plays, or he'll have a good season or a bad season. And, you know, once he got 368 goals in his career, look that one up. See if I've got that one, right? - Good job. - Aaron, his career. He's gonna be a great player. And the captain's he isn't gonna make a difference to how he plays, and it's not gonna make a difference how the team wins. Now, I can see the discussion of what does this do to team chemistry, I get that. You know, I get that. But I don't think John Tavares, he's one of the classiest NHL players I've dealt with over the years, he's not gonna change what he does, one Iota. And in fact, I really believe, and I don't have any inside knowledge on this one, that if you could end up next year with John Tavares on a three or four year contract, three and a half or four million dollars, wearing the A, being your second or third line center, as he, you know, what do you do 33 now? You know, as he gets past his 35th and becoming like, what a great deal that is for the least to have a guy like Tavares playing at that amount. It's gonna completely flip the conversation. Now, he may decide I wanna, I can get more money elsewhere, but given that he's made just made 77 million dollars over the last 11 years, and maybe not. But anyways, over the last seven years, but I think this could really put him in a much better position. I don't think it changes Matthew's position, I don't think it does anything different. You know, NHL teams are like that now, you got a few guys making a whack of money and a bunch of guys not making as much, and they gotta sort all that out. The problems that face the make leads have nothing to do with who's wearing your seat. - Having said that, let's dwell on who's wearing the seat. Oh, well, how are we gonna look at back on Tavares' tenure as Leafs captain? Because, you know, the guy who well, not immediately preceded him, but last held the letter before him, Deon Fanuff, it was certainly a tumultuous tenure. I think he was a decent captain for the Leafs, but I also think a lot went wrong, kinda on his watch, salute gate, all the likes of that. How do you think we remember Tavares' captain seat? 'Cause I think in a dream world, the Matthews one feels much like the Matt Sundine one did, where it's a long run, and hopefully maybe a little more team success, but certainly some deep-ish runs in the playoffs. And Tavares run, I don't think it's fair to compare it to Fanuff, but it certainly feels closer to that than it does the kind of Sundine tenure that he had. - Yeah, yeah, look, I think if you look at the best captain of the post '67 era, then you're looking at Sittler, Sundine, Gilmore, and Clark. And then if you're looking at the least effective, you're probably looking at Deon, Rob Ramage, although he did his best Rick Vibe 'cause the teams were just bad when he was in those sort of stuff. And probably the day T on one at the early part of the '70s was so-so because the teams weren't very good, and then he was treated bad, and we know that whole story. - So I would say Tavares comes in the middle of those and closer to the Sundine and then the Ramage ended it because the team was really good during the regular season. He scored the one goal that got them out of the first round. I think he's been a really reliable, effective guy. He just hasn't met up to $11 million a season, which is what happens to almost all pre-agents. They never met because they got overpay to get them. And the team hasn't done well in the post, or well enough in the post season. And if you're the captain, that's part of how the world will measure you, whether that is fair or not. It goes, it's like, was Dan Marino not as good a quarterback because the dolphins didn't win a Super Bowl. If you believe in that, then you believe that John Tavares wasn't a good captain because the Leafs only got out of the first round once. I think he was a really solid guy. I mean, I remember, do you want to know this? Wendell Clark story? I remember watching Wendell Clark. They'd been knocked out in Vancouver. Maybe this was '94. This could be a completely made up story in my mind, by the way. They all kind of fall together. But I, and they'd been knocked out, and it was a rainy night, and they'd been to the leading semi-finals year before, and they were so disappointed and loose because, like, two of the Canucks in '94. And they had a team gathering at a Vancouver restaurant, I think afterwards. And who's outside standing in the rain? It's Wendell Clark because he's making sure everybody gets in before he goes in. All his teammates, every single guy. And that was the kind of leader he was. And Matt Sundine was the same. They took care of their teammates, and I think that's what captains do. You take care of your teammates, and you lead by how you play. I imagine Austin Matthews probably already does a lot of those things for the Leafs, and I'm certain John Tavares did. Well, but isn't Brad's reliving telling us he thinks there's a tangible impact that it could have on the ice, because it was apparently one of the first things he did at the conclusion of that 7-7 game series against the Boston Bruins. Could've waited a year, right? John Tavares might still be at Toronto Maple Leafs next season, but his contract expires at the conclusion of this year. That would've been an easy point of demarcation to hand it over to Austin Matthews. He wanted to do it today, right now for this season, because, I guess, he thinks that there's a hockey component to this. Yeah, I think you're right. I mean, you asked me what I think. I'm sure there's a lot of people in hockey who think it's super, super important, right? But traditionalists who believe, the same guys who believe a lot of stuff go hockey that I don't believe. They believe that they really believe it matters who wears a seat. I think it does ensure some continuity, you know, and the changeover. And I think it does open up opportunities. 'Cause, you know what? We've seen this before with captains, right? We saw the Mets and Dean. It gets awkward when all of a sudden he got a captain, and he can't play quite the way he used to. And what do we do with this guy? And, you know, we've seen this happen a number of times in a lot of cities, including Toronto. I mean, in Toronto, and ended up with Matt Sundeen, they just sort of let him go, you know, I mean, you know, and it becomes awkward. It's not gonna be awkward with John Tavares now. And so I think, I wonder if this had more to do with that than actually crowning Austin Matthews and believing that putting him at the top, you know, the hierarchy is really gonna make the Leafs result in more wins or all that stuff. Austin Matthews already knew he was the most important player on the team. He now really knows it, I guess, you know. And, you know, again, I really believe guys, this has more to do in a lot of ways with John Tavares. And I could be wrong, but, you know, that he may now, this really sets him up to stay in Toronto longer at a lower contract, at a different role on the team, and it won't be awkward for anybody. - Yeah, and I really wonder if that's what true living was seriously considering as opposed to the other. - And potentially your boy Keith Bell is like, let's sell some more jerseys. How about some new ones with a C on a 34, a C on a live? - That's a real problem with the Leafs. - That's one of the big off-season-out-of-a-we-so. Oh, yeah, no, I think it's also fun, right? You know, it's one of those, it's like the All-Star game. It's kind of an anachronism, right, the C. I mean, if I could quiz you guys right now, and if you didn't have the information right in front of you, which you probably do, because you guys are always super prepared, I could ask you a bunch of teams and you would be able to name their captains. Me too. I had to look up again when I wrote something about this. Who was the captain of Florida? You know, oh, yeah, Barkov. Well, do we look at Florida and say, oh, my God, it's not for Barkov wearing the C, they never win it. You know, it's no, 'cause he's a great player. And, you know, I think there's 16s now, is that right, but don't have a captain? - Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm looking at it right now. - God, you're all over it, didn't I? - I know, 'cause, you know, I, 'cause I woke up like half an hour, bro, so I was really prepared for this. Well, it's the clarity of mind when you're driving through the Black Hills of South Dakota. I went to, I also went to Mount Rushmore, by the way. - That's in North Dakota. - And that was cool. - No, it's in South Dakota. - I thought it was in North. - It's still in South Dakota. - I believe Ben could argue about where a place was with a guy who was just there. - Oh, okay. - Only you, Ben. - No, it's in North Dakota. You're lying, why would I lie? You know, I will tell you one thing about that, by the way, and this is just a lot of people are hockey fans. There's a lot of people who are hockey fans or motorcycle fans, the Sturgis motorcycle rally was going on or finishing up when we were in South Dakota. But I've never seen so many motorcycles in my life. - Wow. - And I remember when Doug Gilmore was made captain, didn't they have a big famous pose of him with on a motorcycle? So there you go. - There's the cow legs. - Eyes and the cow legs, yeah. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We're in the cow legs. - That was a different thing. - That was a different thing. (laughing) - Damien, it's been too long. - Good to chat, buddy. - Yeah, it was good to chat. I was glad to share you with my memories of Wrigley. If you asked me about it next week, I'll probably say no, never been there. (laughing) I won't be doing the future. So you got to all expression in my mind. And maybe they'll open up, make these cards. Wouldn't that be amazing? That would be the greater story of it. Least, moving back to make these cards. - That would be cool. That would be cool. All right. - I don't think it's gonna happen. - I think so. - See you, boys. Have a good one. - You too. Damien Cox. Our Leafs historian. - Toronto star contributor. - Firey this morning. - Oh, yeah, yeah. - A lot on its mind. It's been long between now appearances. - Appearances makes the heart fonder something. - That's correct. Time now for the Wake and Rake, presented by Sports Interaction, your homegrown Sportsbook 19+ bet responsibly. Well, how do the betting markets feel about the Toronto Maple Leafs after their newly minted captain? No surprise Maple Leafs, one of the betting favorites to win a Stanley Cup, despite only having one post-season victory during the Austin Matthews tenure. But now he's a captain. Everything's gonna change. They're plus 300. That's second favorite behind the Panthers who are, as you may recall, the defending Stanley Cup champions. - I don't know where. - Plus 220. How do you like the Leafs to plus 300? - Honestly, I don't hate it, to be perfectly honest. That doesn't much less to do with the Leafs than it does the Atlantic at large, cop hangover, lightning. - Oh, this is sorry, Atlantic division odds. Lightning, no-stam-coast, weird year for them. Boston, I don't know, maybe one day, they'll finally take a step back and then all the other teams in the division, we've been waiting for them to show up for the last, I don't know, decade, basically. Yeah, I guess Montreal made a Cup final in there, so I should probably mention that. But yeah, give me the Leafs plus 300. Like, I know it's a homer pick, but I actually think as far as value goes, you're looking at that or you're looking at Tampa. - Yeah, and Blue Jay is starting up a series in Chicago against the Cubs. It is Yariel Rodriguez against Kyle Hendricks and the Cubs slightly favored at minus 115, Blue Jay's minus 105 with Yariel Rodriguez on the mound. - Yeah, Jay's are hot, let's go. - Jay's on the Money Line, minus 105. - I just told you, they killed these sub 500 teams, so yes, take the Blue Jay's who are running red hot after sweeping away the Angels. That was the Waken Reich presented by Sports Interaction, your homegrown Sportsbook 19 plus bet, Ruth's sponsoredly. When we come back, Adnan Verke of MLB Network as the fan morning show continues, and a sprint gunning sports net 590 the fan.
