This episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast delves into the story of Captain Paul Watson, a prominent figure in conservation activism. The host, Andrew Lewin, discusses Watson's past actions, current arrest, and the concept of whether activism can have consequences that come back to haunt you. Exploring the question of whether karma plays a role in activism, the episode provides insights into the complexities of standing up for environmental causes.
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Activism can have significant consequences, as demonstrated by the case of Captain Paul Watson discussed in the podcast episode. Despite advocating for conservation and animal rights causes, Watson faced backlash and legal repercussions for his aggressive tactics. His involvement in organizations like Greenpeace and Sea Shepherd led to confrontations with authorities, particularly in Japan, where he interfered with whaling activities.
Watson's approach to activism, which involved direct action and sometimes confrontational methods, garnered both support and criticism. While he achieved some success in raising awareness and initiating change, his actions also alienated certain groups and countries. This polarization highlights the potential consequences of activism, where individuals may face legal challenges, arrest, or even extradition for their advocacy efforts.
The episode also touched upon the complexities of Watson's character, noting instances where he made controversial statements, such as criticizing indigenous practices related to hunting. These remarks further fueled the divide in public opinion about his methods and beliefs. Despite his dedication to conservation causes, Watson's confrontational approach and contentious statements have led to a mixed reception among supporters and detractors.
Overall, the case of Captain Paul Watson serves as a reminder that activism, while crucial for driving change, can come with repercussions. Individuals advocating for causes they believe in may encounter resistance, legal challenges, and public scrutiny. The episode underscores the importance of considering the potential consequences of activism and the need to navigate these challenges while staying true to one's values and goals.
Captain Paul Watson's aggressive conservation methods have indeed polarized opinions within the marine conservation community and the general public. On one hand, many people praise his unwavering dedication to protecting the ocean and marine life. Watson's founding of both Greenpeace and Sea Shepherd, two prominent conservation organizations, has led to significant changes in marine conservation efforts globally. These organizations have employed marine conservationists, activists, and policy makers, and have successfully advocated for marine protection and policy changes.
However, on the other hand, Watson's approach, which often involves confrontational and aggressive tactics, has drawn criticism from many quarters. His use of violence and direct action, such as ramming boats and disrupting whaling activities, has been controversial and has led to legal issues and conflicts with authorities. Additionally, Watson has made controversial statements, including criticizing indigenous communities for their involvement in activities like selling hunting quotas to wealthy hunters.
The episode highlights how Watson's actions and statements have led to a mixed reception among conservationists and the public. While some view him as a hero for his relentless efforts to protect marine life, others condemn his methods and rhetoric. The episode also discusses the recent ousting of Watson from Sea Shepherd due to disagreements over the organization's direction, indicating internal conflicts within the conservation community regarding his approach.
Overall, Captain Paul Watson's legacy is a complex one, with supporters lauding his commitment to marine conservation and detractors questioning the effectiveness and ethics of his aggressive tactics and controversial statements. The episode underscores the ongoing debate surrounding Watson's conservation methods and the diverse opinions within the conservation community regarding his contributions to ocean protection.
The arrest of Captain Paul Watson outside Greenland or Iceland has sparked a debate on the balance between activism, ethics, and the potential consequences of one's actions in the conservation field. Captain Watson, a prominent figure in marine conservation, has a long history of aggressive activism through organizations like Greenpeace and Sea Shepherd. His methods, including confrontational tactics and direct action, have garnered both support and criticism.
Captain Watson's arrest brings to light the question of whether the ends justify the means in conservation activism. While he has been successful in raising awareness and effecting change in some instances, his approach has also alienated and angered many, including governments and indigenous communities. The episode highlights how his actions, while driven by a passion for protecting the ocean, have led to legal troubles and strained relationships with various stakeholders.
The episode delves into the complexities of activism and the ethical considerations that come into play. Captain Watson's confrontational tactics, such as disrupting whaling operations and targeting illegal fishing vessels, have been effective in some cases but have also raised ethical concerns. His controversial statements and actions have polarized opinions within the conservation community, with some viewing him as a hero and others as a problematic figure.
The arrest of Captain Paul Watson serves as a reminder of the potential consequences of activism and the importance of considering the ethical implications of one's actions. It prompts reflection on the balance between passion for conservation and the methods used to achieve conservation goals. The episode encourages listeners to engage in a dialogue about the complexities of activism, ethics, and the impact of one's actions in the conservation field.
Big news out of conservation, Captain Paul Watson has been arrested outside, I believe it's Greenland or Iceland, I forget where. That's not really important, but we're gonna talk more about a follow-up to a story that I talked about on Friday, the last episode, where we talked about how activism can get you arrested, and you may not like the results from your activism, and will that stop you from doing any kind of activism? It's a really interesting question that I wanna explore again today by talking about Captain Paul Watson. If you don't know who he is, we're gonna talk about who he is, what he did in the past, and how it's haunting him in the future. And asking the question, does Karma come back to kick in the butt? We're gonna talk about that on today's episode of The How To Protect The Ocean Podcast. Let's start the show. (lively music) Hey everybody, welcome back to another exciting episode of The How To Protect The Ocean Podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Lewin. This is the podcast where you find out what's happening with The Ocean, how you can speak up for The Ocean, what you can do to live for a better ocean by taking action. Now, today's episode, we're gonna be diving more into a story that I talked about last episode, where we talked about activism and saying, "Look, is it really worth the cost?" For some people, it is. And for a guy like Dr. or Doctor, a guy like Captain Paul Watson, it has been the cost. It has been worth the cost. He is a guy who has, since the '70s, not only created two of the most notable organizations and conservation in the world internationally, but he's also been notoriously vilified in the media, in just law, in general, and in specific countries, like Japan. And Japan's been after him for a long time. This is the second time that I've known that he's been arrested and trying to be extradited to Japan to be like, "Hey, you know what?" Like, we want him. We wanna put him in trial. We wanna put him on trial. We want to make sure that he goes to jail so that he doesn't interfere with whaling, because he interfered with whaling for so many years. So we're gonna talk a little bit about Dr. I'll keep calling it Dr. Captain Paul Watson. He's kind of been a guy that, you know, people either love him or they hate him. It's a really, he's been a really interesting personality within the conservation world. It started off, I've talked about him before on this podcast, but it's been a while. So I'm gonna give you a little bit of a background on him from what I know. This is a little bit more of a, I'm gonna guess like a little bit of a rant, more of just like my opinion on Captain Paul Watson and what he's done and sort of the actions that have been taken against him. It's a little bit of like a back and forth. I'm a guy who likes to see both sides of the issue and present both sides of the issue. And of course, I wanna know your opinion. You know, this is something, you know, you look at a man like him, a guy like him just being like, hey, look, I would wanna do everything possible. Here are my values in terms of conservation. This is what I wanna see. And then I'm gonna do everything possible, including using a form of violence in a way to be able to achieve that. But over time, be a little bit successful in what he was able to do, but also offend a lot of people, ostracize a lot of people and, you know, pretty much, you know, he's on the wrong side of a lot of people, you know, the bad side of a lot of people, including countries like Japan. So we're gonna talk a little bit about that. He started Greenpeace, folks. He was part one of the founders of Greenpeace. And he started Greenpeace as an activism organization. So this is a, you know, we know Greenpeace. I grew up in the '80s and '90s. You know, I saw the big protests against oil, big protest against the fossil fuel industry in the '80s and '90s, protest against hunting, protest against like seal hunting, that it happened in Canada that I used to see on the news. I still see it. You know, you see protests happening everywhere, all over the world. It was international and it was aggressive. You know, not violent in the way that I've ever remembered, but it was also in your face. It disrupted a lot of things. And Greenpeace still does really interesting protests. You know, right now, deep sea mining is the big issue. And we have, I've covered, you know, topics where, you know, on episodes where we've seen, you know, green, Greenpeace activists and Greenpeace staff members go on deep sea mining boats, like in Normandy and stuff, not Normandy, sorry, in Norway. And just be like, hey, you know what? Like, we're gonna protest and have, so have like against anti-ET exploration, protest signs up there trying to stop people from doing deep sea mining. And they used to do it against fur, they used to do it against a lot of other things. This continues to happen. Like, they're still an activism organization, but they've changed over time. They now work with governments on policy actions. They will still do activism, but they will also go into policy. They will also look at science. They will also look at white, like white papers and do campaigns to make you aware of what's happening in the ocean and on land, but also like the major things that are happening and what they're against. And to be honest, they still kind of follow what Paul Watson and the other founders really started in terms of like, we don't want hunting, we don't want animal cruelty, we don't want, you know, the extraction of resources in deep sea, like in the deep sea as well as other places. And so we're gonna do everything we can, including protest, but also working with governments to make sure that there are policies in place to stop this stuff from happening. So they went from an activism organization to more of a, hey, we're still gonna do the activism, we still don't love what you do, but we're also gonna wanna work with you so that you can get policy in place. 'Cause they see that's how change is also made. It's not just getting the government's attention or a government's attention or somebody's attention in a private business, but it's also working with those stakeholders to say, hey, we need to do something about it. And whether you agree with it or not, that's fine. Paul Watson did not agree with the way they were changing. He saw the writing on the wall. I think he got ousted from Greenpeace, and then he started, in which he helped found, and then he started Sea Shepherd. Sea Shepherd was more of his organization. He founded it, it's based on him. His name's all over it. When you think of Sea Shepherd, you think of Captain Paul Watson. He's been on TV shows, he's been on the news. He is Sea Shepherd. He started Whale Wars, there was a TV show, and essentially Sea Shepherd will go out. They will have their own boats. They will go out for a while. They were going out to the Southern Ocean in New York, Antarctica, and they would stop the Japanese whaling fleet from whaling. Now, to go back on it, the International Whaling Commission, they put a moratorium on whale hunting back in the '80s. Japan was like, no way, a couple of other countries, like Norway and Denmark. They said, no way, we're not doing it. We're going to continue to hunt, and they continue to hunt. So, Sea Shepherd's like, we're not going to allow you to do that. So, we're going to take our boats, we're going to get in your way. We might bump you a little bit, and we're going to get in your way, and we're going to make your life a living hell. So, they would battle. They literally had whale wars, and that was a TV show. It was almost like a reality show, a news reality show, documenting what the Sea Shepherd would do. They'd have boats of volunteers, not necessarily marine biologists. Some of them might have been marine biologists. I don't know. There were a lot of stories that came out of those ships. There were a lot of good stories. There were a lot of bad stories as well. I'm not going to go into it because they're all allegations. I don't know exactly what happened, but I have heard some bad things that happen on those ships. Regardless, they put themselves in harm's way. They use some violence to bump boats, to get in the way of-- I think what they would try and do is if a whaling ship was after a whale, they would try and harpoon it. What the Sea Shepherd ships would do is they would get in the way, and if they had to cut close into terms of actually bump the boat, they would actually bump the boat, and then that's what would happen. The boat could be damaged. There were a couple of Sea Shepherd boats that were sunk. I don't think anybody ever passed away from it. Thank God. Or I'm sure there were some bumps and bruises and some people that were hurt, but still very dangerous, putting people's lives in danger on both sides of the issue, which you never want to see. That's something that, personally, I don't agree with. But at some point, when you see countries disobeying moratoriums, like international agreed upon moratoriums, and it's in the high seas, there's no law at the time for the high seas. There's now a high seas treaty that hopefully will be ratified by a lot of countries. And it's slowly being ratified by different countries. Canada hasn't even ratified yet, which I don't know why. But regardless, they didn't have it back then. They didn't have it in the 2000s and '90s. And so what Sea Shepherd did was go out there and make life a living hell for the Japanese whaling fleet. And year by year, they would go back out. The Japanese whaling fleet would go back out. Sea Shepherd would meet them. There'd be Sea Shepherd Australia. There'd be Sea Shepherd in the southeast and the US. And people would fly from all over the world to be on these boats to make sure that whaling didn't happen. Or they made-- just it was really bad. Eventually, the Japanese were like, we're out. We're done. This is not happening anymore. We don't want to have anything to do with it. And so they basically stopped. And at one point, you're just like, look, I may not agree with the way they did things, the Sea Shepherd did things. But they kind of did us a favor. They got so annoying and so in your face that finally the Japanese whaling fleet was like, we're not going to hunt in the southern ocean and hunt all these minky whales and other whales. We're going to hunt just within our territorial waters. And so that's what they did. That's what happened. At one point, you're just kind of like, OK, like we've been talking crap about this Sea Shepherd organization for a while because a lot of times we didn't really like what they do. And a lot of people do, and a lot of people love what they did. And to be honest, there's a lot of supporters for Sea Shepherd. We're very, I would say, aggressive towards Greenpeace. There was like a beef between them because like, oh, you're not-- I used to see arguments all the time between Greenpeace activists and Sea Shepherd supporters and activists. And be like, Sea Shepherd, before it was like, you're not aggressive enough. And you're not doing what you're supposed to be doing. And Greenpeace is like, we're working with government. We're trying to do our changes. We've been successful in a lot of places. And at the time, I remember saying, I did an episode on the beef and going back and forth. And I remember saying, look, there's room for different organizations that take a different toll. And they're all needed, whether we love it or not. But they're all needed. We need the extremes. We need sort of the people who are less extreme and working with governments and different stakeholders. And it's kind of like a balance a little bit. And it's hard to say that because if you don't want to see anybody get hurt, you don't want to see anybody ramming boats or anything like that. But this is what happens. And because of that, the Japanese have been seeking out Captain Paul Watson a number of different times. And one time, he went to Germany. He flew into Germany. He's flying somewhere. I don't know where. I think he-- I think he lives in France. But he's flying to Germany to fly somewhere else. And the German authorities arrested him and said, hey, there's some people in Japan that want to talk to you. And there was going to be an extradition, and that got fought. And eventually, he came home. But it was in several weeks where he was incarcerated. And people like the sea shepherd supports like what's going on now. At this point, sea shepherd has gotten international. They have a TV show, Whale Wars. They've been in the news a number of different times for their activism and what they've been able to accomplish and what they've been able to do. Some good, some bad. Most of the notorious stuff, nefarious stuff, were out in the public. And that's what they were known for. Whether you liked it or not, that's what they did. And they were known for it. And they were either popular in their supporters' eyes. Or people just didn't like them. A lot of people in conservation are just like, I don't want anything to do a sea shepherd. We don't appreciate-- we don't agree with what they do. But there's something that people in marine conservation could really do. They're an organization. They get funded. They have money. They have boats, all this kind of stuff. A lot of celebrities were endorsing them. A lot of celebrities were donating boats. Bob Barker was one of the boats. Bob Barker is a very popular game show personality. He was a host of the prices right for a long time. And he's very big into animal advocacy. And he was supporting sea shepherd. He was supporting Captain Paul Watson. And so a lot of the supporters came to his rescue. And eventually, he got released from Germany, never went to Japan. God knows what would happen if he ever went to Japan. And so that's what he did. And he got away. And so he continued on with sea shepherd for a number of years. And then recently, within the last few years, sea shepherd had started to take a different turn. And they saw the writing on the wall. They saw that they wanted to shift from a more aggressive approach. But sorry, before I get into that, after the whale wars sort of stopped, they started to get into-- and I don't know if they were still doing it at the same time, but they started to get more popular for tracking down-- excuse me-- tracking down other ships, like fishing vessels that were fishing illegally, either in marine protected areas, or they weren't reporting their fishing activities. So they were IOU fishing. So it's illegal, unreported, and unregulated fishing. And so that's a big no-no. But they're in the high seas. Very difficult to tell. They would come in. These illegal fishing vessels would come into port. They would unload, sell all their stuff. And then they would leave before the authorities knew it. There's a lot of new research out of ways to actually enforce and try and catch some of these illegal vessels, or some of these vessels that are doing illegal things. And a lot of times, they are up to no good, and they have fishing slaves on there, and it's awful-- fisheries slaves, and it's awful. But that will come more than in another episode. But that's what the Sea Shepherd was doing. They were following these vessels. They were tracking them. They were talking to the regular authorities. The smaller countries would actually hire them to come in. Mexico even hired them to come into the Sea of Cortez to be able to monitor fishing boats and not use gill nets so that they didn't take up the total-- or to try and catch total baoa. Total-- total baoa? I think it's called total bao. Total bao-- oh, I forget the name. It's a endangered species that's caught using gill nets, but they also catch a small marine mammal. And so not getting into that, but they would be called on to, you know, patrol those waters, eventually getting kicked out by the Mexican government. So there's never, like, a really good relationship with a lot of these. It seems to have come and go with this relationship. And but the thing is, they had boats, and they were willing to patrol. They were willing to enforce any kind of laws as long as the countries would have them. And so that's what they got popular for. And even I started, like, well, they're not doing it. They're not ramming boats. They're catching boats. They're following them. And they're reporting on them. And it's like, hey, you know, it's kind of nice that people are doing this. And we always talk about people need to step up. Governments need to step up, but they're not stepping up. And so you're like, you know, you get frustrated, and that's what happens. You get, you know, organizations like She Sheppard, who are doing this type of work, and have the money, and have the vessels, have the operators, and to be able to go and do this kind of work. And so they do, and you're like, okay, this is great. Like, this is great work. So, you know, they start doing that. And then all of a sudden, a couple of years ago, I started to read about how, like, some of the supporters that I follow on on Facebook and stuff, I start to see. I'm like, what's happened with Paul Watson? And C Sheppard. Like, Captain Paul Watson's out of the C Sheppard organization. And what happened is there was a bit of a coup, and not a bit of a coup. There was a coup in the C Sheppard organization where the board members got together, and essentially ousted Paul Watson from a lot of the organization that he was able to create and expand. And there are so many different C Sheppards. I guess they're all individually managed within the organizations, like within different countries, that the board members, like, went behind his back, and it was like, they got support from certain C Sheppard countries in different countries. And then others were very loyal to Paul Watson. And then it got very little. The people who were the organizations in different countries that were loyal to Paul Watson. And so, then Paul Watson, Allison, is ousted from the main international C Sheppard, like C Sheppard International. And he's pissed. He's not happy. You know, he's starting to write about it a number of different times. Like, all in this post, how he felt, stabbed in the back, how people he brought on, and he put together, you know, to be a C Sheppard supporters and advocates and board members and staff members. All of a sudden, they betrayed him. And I guess they thought they wanted the organization to go into a different route, just like Greenpeace, to start working more with policy and do more non-aggressive things. And of course, Kevin Paul Watson is not for that type of way. And so, he got ousted. They had a disagreement. They ousted him behind his back, it seems. And I guess that's how it goes. And so, he was looking for a new foundation. I think the new, I forget the name of the new foundation, but he did start a new foundation. Started to get some ships, bought some. It was retrofitting some of them to fit his needs. And then I think he was starting to do a campaign on overfishing and illegal fishing. And that's, I think, how he got caught. A lot of this is assumptions. I'm just kind of, you know, ranting on this. But this is what happens when you're an advocate and your, you know, your methods are more aggressive. You start to piss people off. You start to piss countries off. And countries are like, hey, you know what? We're gonna come after you. And Japan, apparently, still remembers what Paul Watson did. You know, and his organization did. So they are, they have a warrant out. If he goes to Japan, he probably will get arrested, go to trial, get convicted, and spend a long time in jail. I don't know what the charges are, but I do know that Japan wants them. And there are certain countries that have extradition agreements with Japan. And I think one of those is either Denmark or Norway. And he flew to Greenland to go somewhere else and he got arrested right there. And now he's being, you know, sort of, I think they're evaluating whether he needs to be extradited to Japan. Now, my concerns, if he does go to Japan, he will get convicted. He will go to jail for quite a long time. And he's a holder now, he's in the 70s. So any kind of long-term sentence could be the last, unfortunately, that we see. And I would wanna see anybody do that. I don't know, you know, what the charges are or, you know, whether he's guilty of that. My point of this story is, you know, is it, was it worth it? Did he, was he able to get all the stuff that he wanted done, or at least some of the stuff that he wanted done. And we're, like, you know, he created Greenpeace, he created Sea Shepherd. Those are two organizations who have done some changes, who have made some significant changes and small changes in various countries around the world in terms of advocates. They're people, they've employed a lot of marine conservationists, they've employed activists, they've employed, you know, policy makers, they've worked with governments, they've been able to hammer out agreements and they've been able to protest certain issues, especially as they come up, like seeing things like deep, deep-seam mining. And now, you know, you have the guy who founded both of those organizations who have seen some success and have gotten very popular, funded. Like, I gotta tell you, it is not easy to get funded. It is not easy for an organization to get funded. And here he is, he's also been able to, you know, get a lot of funding, you know, to get ships, multiple ships donated to buy celebrities and other organizations and companies. That is a true feat within marine conservation. Now, on the other hand, you know, not only has he pissed the people off, but he's also said some pretty abhorrent things, you know, over his lifetime, you know. And a lot of it, you know, recently I was, you know, interacting with a colleague of mine, somebody who's like sort of like an internet friend, you know, we don't really know each other offline, but you know, we respect the work that we do. Asking questions, I was like, you know, she responded, she was like, oh, you know, Captain Paul Watson is getting arrested, she's like, surprise, surprise, I hope he rots in hell for some of the things he said. And I was just like, you know, I responded being like, well, this is a lot of people think he's, I remember like, why do you think this? And she was saying he said some pretty nasty things against indigenous people. And I think, I think it has to do with in 2015, 2016, you know, there were a lot, there was a, I guess it was a bit of a controversy of indigenous people in the North, whether it be Alaska or even in the Canadian North and in the Yukon as well as Northwest Territories and none of it where they were, you know, some new violas were selling their quotas to, you know, rich hunters who were going up and, you know, killing, basically hunting for polar bears. And the indigenous people up there have quotas, certain quotas that they can hunt and they're allowed to sell those quotas and allow to be a guide for those people to get, you know, those prize hunts. I guess it's similar to people in Africa who have those quotas, they can sell it to people who come over rich, usually hunters who come over and sort of get these major tags and these major quotas and hunt lines and tigers and wherever they are, not in Africa obviously, but elephants and so forth. And they, you know, they take pictures out with it and they spend, you know, 50, like 50 thousands, like tens of thousands of dollars. And, you know, a lot of people don't like it, but, you know, it's a money maker for the indigenous people who, you know, their history within Canada and the US is very complex, very controversial, you know, as a Canadian in the past, we have treated and we continue sometimes to treat indigenous people like crap. And, you know, obviously we need to do better. Selling these quotas was a way that they wanted to make money and that's the way it was done. Captain Paul Watson did not like the way that was done and said they were being a traitor to nature and the way their culture and things like that, which was obviously not the right thing to say. And I think that's what this person that I was interacting with on threads at the time was talking about. And I get it, I totally get it. There are very different sides of Captain Paul Watson. There are some things where he has said he's very true to his word in terms of he doesn't like hunting, he doesn't like anything like any harm to any kind of animals. And so people really respect him for it, but the way he goes about it, people really hate him for it as well. And so when you start to be this polarizing and bad things happen to you, people will start to, you know, applaud it, the people who do not see eye to eye with you and the way you've treated other people, they will applaud the fact that you've been arrested. It's almost like karma coming back at you. And at some point you're gonna have some ups and downs and those downs could be being arrested and being evaluated for extradition or being prepared for extradition. You know, you've seen a lot of people make that sacrifice for what their values are. And I feel like Captain Paul Watson is one of those people. There's a petition going around to try and plead with the government that arrested him to say, hey, you know what, can you let him go? He's been such a huge advocate for the ocean and we want to make sure that he's able to stick around and do all this kind of stuff. And at some point people are like, I don't really care. Like people are like, this is what he's done. This is what he deserves. So I would love to know where you fit on the spectrum. Like, do you say, hey, you know what? He's a great hero and he should be honored for that. Canada, where he's Canadian, Canada should be helping him out. Other countries should be helping him out. Sea Shepherd should be helping him out, but he's not part of Sea Shepherd anymore. Or are you on the side of, look, this guy has done some really bad things. He's done some really bad things too. Indigenous people as well as other things. He chose violence to help conservation. I don't believe that. I would love to see him arrested or he deserves this. Love to hear your thoughts. Hit me up on Instagram. Or if you're listening to this on Spotify, you can just comment on Spotify. Does Paul Watson deserve to be arrested? Love to hear your thoughts on this. Hit me up on Instagram at how to protect the ocean if you want to DM me. Or if you're listening to this on Spotify, hit that poll and just say, hey, do you think Kevin Paul Watson should be arrested? Love to hear your thoughts on this. 'Cause that's what this is about. This is a podcast where I start the conversation. I want to hear how you feel about this. 'Cause that's why I start this podcast. That's why I do this podcast each and every time I record. So, thank you very much for listening. You have been listening too. You had to protect the ocean podcast. I'm your host, Angelouin. Have a great day. We'll talk to you next time. And happy conservation. (upbeat music) (keyboard clicking)
