Welcome to the speaker for Blue Podcast session 128. Welcome everybody. Interview Wednesdays are back. I was able to get James Pribram, who I've been trying to get on the show for a while. We've had some technical difficulty a couple of times. I want to thank James for trying about three or four times to do an interview. Excuse me. One time we got about a quarter of the way through and just the technology just broke down and it sucked. But anyway, we got together on Blab, which has been a great platform that we've been able to record and stuff. So here today we're going to talk about how he is an eco warrior and all the interesting things that he's taken a part of. You will not want to miss this on today. Speak up for Blue podcast. Stay tuned. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another exciting episode of the Speak up for Blue podcast, your voice. Your voice for the ocean. I am your host, Angela and founder, Speak up for Blue dot com or any colleges and self proclaimed ocean printer. That's right. I am an entrepreneur and everything I do is to protect the ocean. Today on the episode, we have an interview. Interview Wednesdays are back. It's James Pribram, who is a pro surfer, I guess retired now and has turned his sights on eco warrior, becoming an eco warrior. And living up to that name. And when I mean eco warrior, I mean eco warrior. This man is a warrior, not necessarily in the violence way, but in the determination and living up to his passion. What I love about this, this man, is that he grew up on the beach grew up in Laguna Beach. He wanted to, you know, he grew up in Laguna Beach, became a surfer. And when he was a teenager became a pro surfer in his adult life. And then wanted to come back to Laguna Beach and give back to his beach, the beach that really made his career take off. And he did so in epic, epic ways. And he's continuing to do so in epic ways and really getting the community involved in beach cleanups. The way I actually found him, his name and the eco warrior foundation was on a, on a, on an article through the Huffington Post by Lisa cast Boyle, who I have Facebook friends with. She is one of the co founders of plastic pollution coalition. She wrote an article in Huffington Post about James, his cleanup methods in terms of beach cleanups, but getting the beach, getting them debris and plastics cleaned up upstream of the beach before it actually hits the beach and the ocean. You know, it's, it's, it's genius in a way. It's, it's almost like, oh, well, yeah, that makes sense why wait till it hits the beach, but it's, you know, it's not done often. And I think the way James does this stuff and gets the community involved in these beach cleanups and the events really takes the stuff that he learned when he was a kid on the beach with sort of the older surfer saying that look, if you pass a piece of trash, you never just pass it, you pick it up and you put it in the garbage where you put in the recycling. He's instilling that same kind of mentality in, you know, his in the new community in the community that he wants to build, right in the community that he wants to be a part of and I think that's really admirable. And we're going to hear all about his stuff, including how he part or how he part take how he part took. He participated in the paddle out to the cove that was the paddle out right before he has a really interesting story how he should have been in that paddle out that was covered in the head and penitentiary and other surfers, but he didn't for a particular reason, and you're going to want to listen to this entire story. It is really interesting, kind of creepy in a way and what he had to go through while he was in Japan. However, it was really it's a really interesting story and you're going to want to hear it very, very scary, very entertaining. Just goes to show with a lot of these, not only just eco warriors, but a lot of advocates do and have to go through when they're in a foreign country or when they're trying to speak out against something that other people don't want to get the message out on. So really interesting in that respect. But before we get to the interview, I just want to thank our Patreon contributors that is Claire and Chris Jeffers, Ron and Judy and Dr. Judith Weiss. Thank you very much for your continued support of this podcast of Speak Up For Blue and our ocean message that we're trying to get out to not only the podcasting platform, but other platforms as well. There's going to be in a couple weeks, there's going to be a series of podcasts that I'm going to create that's really going to tell you the direction of where Speak Up For Blue wants to go. I've had a real epiphany this past couple weeks and really digging deep into what I want Speak Up For Blue to become and how I want to live my life and how I want to really change the game and we're really going to do that with Speak Up For Blue. So stay tuned for those podcasts in a couple weeks once I get really an idea of how I want to finalize my ideas. So stay tuned for that. But thank you for the for the continued support on Patreon. I really appreciate it. And if you want to support our cause and our ocean conservation message out there and our action that we want to do, you can do so at Speak Up For Blue.com/patreon, P-A-T-R-E-O-N. So thank you very much for your support. And here is the interview with James Prabram and I will talk to you right after. Hey James, how you doing? Welcome to the Speak Up For Blue podcast here on BLAB, which is a live streaming platform which we've never really done before. This is your first time. So welcome to BLAB. How's it going, bud? I am good. I'm excited because we've tried to do this interview a few times. Obviously the audience doesn't know that, but we've tried to do this about three or four times now. We've had technical difficulty and it seems like this is going to work for us. So, you know, knock on wood, of course. I was going to say, you're brave. I like that. But anyway, the reason why I wanted to have you on the podcast was there, we covered actually you and eco warriors, your organization in a, oh, we got some falling, falling iPads. I haven't been drinking, I promise. It's just a mic or just a phone. No worries, no worries. But what happens, we wanted to have you on the podcast because we covered a story about you and your organization, eco warriors, and how you're cleaning up beaches and how you're organizing a number of people to help you clean up beaches before the trash actually hits the beach. So we're going to talk all about that. We're going to talk about you as a professional surfer and what made you decide to really get into cleaning the oceans and we're going to do all that in this podcast in this interview. But first, before we do, why don't you tell us who you are and what you do. James Froobrum, we're going to be in California and I am a glorified trash fan. A glorified trash man. I love it. I love it. I love that. I know. That's my new title. I'm a, yeah, I keep, I've gone from pro surfer to eco warrior to just trash man now. Now, now it's funny because a lot of people would, you know, have some objections about calling themselves a trash man, but you, you seem to be alright with that. You seem to be like, Hey, man, this is my calling and this is what I'm going to be doing. Like the shirt here. Blue shirt here. I'm blue collar all the way. I got no problem with being a trash man. I love it. Especially when it comes to picking up trash and litter off our beaches and, you know, keeping it out of our oceans and waterways. Right. Right. Now, being being by the beach, being by the coast, do you see a lot of trash along the beach? I mean, you live in a pretty nice area. Laguna Beach is a pretty nice area. Do you still see trash along the beach and along the rivers? Oh, yeah. Not a lot of rivers around here, but on the beach is, I see immense amount of litter. It's unbelievable, actually. And, you know, what's even worse, like styrofoam, it's been stormy down here. It's been raining. Wave's been big, but what you actually see is, if you walk the tide line, you'll see little pieces of styrofoam. And there's just white pieces all scattered through the title line on the beach. And that's really a bad thing, obviously, because it's difficult to clean up. And that's what the fish eat, the bird's eat. And same goes for plastic as well. You know, it's a small, tiny little particles that get broken down and they don't ever really break down into nothingness. Right. But just to the point of where it's so hard to find it and pick it up before it gets in the water. And that's one of the reasons why we have started an upstream initiative to try and get some of those things. And try and get some of that debris before it makes its way down onto our beaches and into our oceans as well. No, that's amazing. I mean, you know, when I first heard about, being up here in Canada, we hear about the trash problem. We're hearing it more and more nowadays. But, you know, 10, 20 years ago, we never really knew a lot about, you know, garbage and debris and plastic in the ocean. Although it's been a pretty prominent issue that's been covered in the States quite a bit. When did you first start seeing this kind of trash and stuff being around the beaches and in the ocean? Gosh, I would hate to say, but since my earliest recollection of being on the beach and being in the ocean and there's really one pivotal point in my life early on in my surfing career in 1993. I was in Tahiti filming a episode of hot summer nights for ESPN. And we were sailing through the Tahitian Islands and on our way back, we were on the windward side of one of the islands. And obviously, because of the direction of the wind and the currents, much like you see in the middle of the ocean were ocean currents and wave directions come together and they create gyres. And other people, unfortunately, refer to them as floating trash islands, but the correct vernacular for that is gyre. But back to your, your question. So it was on the windward side of a Tahitian island and there was just, I mean, overabundance of litter, just floating into Haiti and, you know, I was 22 years old at the time. And I remember, I remember thinking, you know, I'm in Tahiti, middle of the ocean, beautiful, it's paradise. What's all this trash doing here? And it really left the indelible impression on me, something to this day. I've actually done a couple interviews already today. And it's fun that I was asked a similar question today a couple times. And that's really like the, I mean, you know, grown up on the beach, you see trash every day, unfortunately, I basically grew up on the beach in Laguna. But aside from, you know, the daily litter on our beaches, that was the one, the first moment when I really realized how bad of a pollution problem we have in our world. And that was back in 1993. And I'm not talking just a couple pieces of trash. It was really bad. It was, and I remember scratching my head. I was so confused and, you know, obviously heartbroken to see something like that at, you know, back in 1993, 22 years old and thinking I was in Heaven and Heaven was littered. Yeah. Yeah. No, for sure. And, and I mean, did you wonder like, did you wonder what like, how did it get there? Because I mean, you're really in a remote part of the world. If you think about it, you know, and you're probably wondering like, you know, where is this, where is this going from here? You know what I mean? Yeah, I just, I really, you know, it was, it was on our way back and for some reason we had been delayed and we're about a day and a half late going on two days getting back. And we had basically run out of food and water. Oh, wow. Yeah. And I remember we were trying to, we were trying to make pancakes out of, oh, gosh, forget like cornmeal, I think it was. Wow. Yeah, we're trying to make pancakes out of cornmeal and we're all starving. We didn't have anything to eat, but there was cornmeal. It's so pure like trying to figure out how to make food with cornmeal. I mean, that's the great thing about traveling. You learn how to, you know, cook with, with basically nothing, especially when you're a kid and you don't really have a lot of money and you're surviving. And, you know, that was part of the appeal and the experience of being a young pro surfer in the 90s. You know, unlike today, you know, guys are making great livings. Right. Professional surfing. We were, you know, we were just stoked to get a plane ticket and be able to travel. You know, we, we had later on in our careers, we're doing, doing okay, but the kids today, man, they're lucky and tell you they're spoiled. It's more. Yeah, there's a lot more money involved nowadays than there is back then, I guess, in terms of the actual sport, right? It's a lot more. Is it just because it's a lot more popular or is it just because, you know, it's just, it's just money's more involved in every sport now. I would have to go with that money's just more involved in every sport and, you know, this sort of surfing was really young. The first so-called world champion was crowned in 1976, if you asked Peter Town, but as far as a real world tour, Sean Thompson would have been the first crowned world champion in 1977. So, you know, going back, 1977, the first IPS world champion at the time, and I term pro 13 years later in 1990. I mean, that's 13 years of professional surfing. So, it was pretty brand new. And, you know, but, you know, I watched the sport grow, I watched them become more in line with actual professional athletes training and being conscious of eating healthy and doing everything that happens in other professional sports as well. I mean, I remember I was one, you know, of very few at the time that actually trained outside of surfing, you know, I always had like professional athletes kind of mindset. I mean, I was always running and swimming and the gym and all that kind of stuff. And, yeah, a lot of the guys back then they didn't do a whole lot, but go surfing. But yeah, you know, I mean, that was my first, first experience that put in perspective, how big of a pollution problem our world was seeing at that time and our oceans. Did you, after that, after that moment, did you notice a lot more when you came home or you traveled to other places? Did you guys notice it more now that that's because you said you, you kind of grew up with it. You know, always around, but you never really paid too much attention to until you saw more probably more dense area when you went to Haiti. Did you find when you came back, it was more prominent now you, it was, it was more stuck in your head. Well, I would say grown up in Laguna Beach. The beach I grew up on was heavily localized. So, number one, if you weren't from there, and you're just respectful, you probably got beat up in your tires flattened. So, I was taught at a very young age, you know, not only to respect the older surfers in the water, but respect the beach, the ocean, everything that came with that. And, you know, you had, even if it was not your trash, you were taught at a young age, you don't ever walk past a piece of trash on our beach. And so, there wasn't a lot of trash, but, you know, every once in a while, someone might come down and have some beers and have fun at night and leave their trash behind. Yeah. And that was a big deal. That was a big deal. And, you know, when I came back from my trip into Haiti in 93, I came back straight to the tour. Remember, we had a contest in Huntington Beach, and then we had the Oprah, Opie Pro, or I'd after that. And, student, a lot of sort of press from my Tahiti trip and promos for ESPN. And so when I got home, it was that trip kind of changed my life. I went from like, you know, like a well-known regional surfer to kind of like, you know, household names sort of overnight once that show aired on ESPN, because they were just promoting that kind of it. I mean, the commercials were, they were doing, and it was just nonstop hot summer nights, James Riverman, blah, blah, blah, and so on, so on this and that it was just, and it was sort of at the time. I mean, we were myself, Joe McNulty and Gavin Best, and we also forgot to sportswear. And, I mean, they sentenced to Tahiti, and we were on this 52 foot brand new catamaran that was just unbelievable. And, you know, we had a chef on board that doubled as the captain and cooking all these fancy meals. I mean, it was like, yeah, back then we were, I mean, you know, guys like Tom Kern were scratching their head like, how the heck we don't even get treated that way, you know. For sure. Now, when you guys were out there, I mean, you noticed the trash, did like the people that were that were recording, like the ESPN, did they notice it too. And was anything mentioned during during the no, it was, you know, at that time, for the most part, I think the cameras were put away. And, you know, it was ESPN hot summer nights. So, you know, back then we didn't have a socially as socially conscious world as we do today. Yeah. So, you know, there was no way they were going to highlight pollution and Tahiti when they were just kicking off their brand new series hot summer nights. And they wanted to promote something that was exotic and, you know, paradise, paradise. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You can't get any better more entertaining than that. Right. Yeah. Pretty entertaining. That's for sure. You know, it's like 16, 17 days at sea. It was awesome. You dream about those things now. You know, when you got so you had your how long was your was your pro and was your surfing career. I was. I surf competitively up until 2002. Okay. And then I became, you know, sort of what they call a free surfer where you get paid to. You're kind of like an ambassador for different companies and they send you around the world. You know shooting for magazines and TV shows and, you know, endorsements and things of that nature and then I kind of curtailed that into sort of becoming. Probably the first environmentally conscious pro surfer. So, by 2005, you know, I was, I was traveling around the world to regions of coastline that were being threatened by either pollution or over development. And in those areas, there are surfing breaks and regions of coastline there were being threatened. So I would go down there and, and report on what was happening while surfing and filming at the same time. It's interesting. Because I mean, you know, you've gone to all these places. You see these places firsthand and how they're developed. They've probably, if you've been back to a number of places, you know, or to a place is a number of times over your career. You've probably seen a lot of times the changes that they undergo along the beaches, like you said development or pollution and things like that. Why did you choose to sort of to report on them and to speak out about them. I got really lucky. Yeah, I was hand-picked OP sportswear at the time. Sort of sought me out to, to more or less become the eco warrior really they had this, this vision of having environmentally conscious professional surfer, and they had a media partner and surfer in the surfer's path. I had a background in journalism and I was professional surfer and I was already doing a lot of environmental work. So I sort of was hand-picked for to lead this project. And, you know, the first trip I was on was to the south of Chile, and there was a protest march. At the time the Riaata, which is the second largest river in Chile, was being polluted by a pulp mill that was dumping chlorinated water into that river. You're familiar chlorinated water basically kills everything in its path. So, I went there and reported on that and while I was there, there was a protest march. And so someone had given me a white cross with an olive branch that was looped around it for luck. And so someone had taken a photograph of me, you know, like leading this march with this cross and you can see like thousands of Chileans behind me. And that was really the photo that just, I mean, once that photo was seen and made it into mainstream media. And that's when I became the eco warrior. And it was a really powerful image. Yeah. And, you know, that was 2005. So, it'll be 11 years this May. And that was, that's when, you know, people really took notice of what I was doing. And I think a lot of people sort of thought, what's this guy from Laguna Beach doing like marching in these protests in the south of Chile. And so that was really the beginning of becoming the eco warrior. Now, did you erase that aspect? The eco warrior aspect? Did you say when you put it up that white cross with the olive branch, did you say this is this is what I need to do? This is my next calling, like this is where I, you know, I'm best served. Um, I did, but I didn't have anything to do with the white cross. Well, of course, yeah, no, symbolically, you know, when you're in the protest march, you know, I mean, I, I, um, yeah, I felt right at home. I felt, I felt like that, that, or is who I am. And I am willing to cross that line. You know, I, I've crossed some pretty scary lines in my life. Um, that was one of the first ones in the protest march and there's, you know, you have riot police and all their gear and they have, they had fire engines and, and you have riot police with hoses ready to go. Yeah, because you're in a foreign country, you know, where you don't really know, you know, how they treat protesters, you know, because in the States and, and in Canada, you know, the protesters are allowed to protest as long as it doesn't really get out of hand. Whereas foreign countries deal with things very differently. You know, and it can turn quite nasty very easily. Right. So you didn't, you probably didn't know where that was, which way that was going to turn. Did you, you know, I've been extremely lucky in my life. Right. I like how you put that basically being like, yeah, no, I could have gone completely wrong, but I got lucky that that that didn't go wrong. Is that what I'm hearing? Yeah, maybe I was just, you know, um, what, you know, beautifully dumb. Or, you know, I mean, yeah, it's a, you know, maybe I, I didn't clearly think about some of the consequences that could have gone wrong. Right. It's just more of like, let's do this, you know, yeah, absolutely. That makes sense. Yeah, I mean, I felt empowered. I felt like I was doing it for bright reasons. I had met people that lived on the, on the, on beachfront property and riverfront property and this. The, the major polluter at the time who owned the pulp mill was silco CEO silco. Okay. Yeah. And they're a huge company. Huge. And they were, I met this man, and I still have a picture of them to this day. And I met with them and he told me he had lived in this house for, you know, 57 or more years, it was, and basically some representative from silco, knocked on his door and he had a beautiful home on the beach and, and I mean, he was just, you know, he, he was nothing less than a gentleman. And basically, some representative from silco came knocked on the door, basically said, we'll give you like a couple hundred dollars for your house, either take that get out now, or we'll remove you basically. And, you know, when I met with him and he told me his story and I saw the look of fear in his eyes. Yeah, if that doesn't inspire you to speak up, or power you, then, you know, you know, you're in the, you're doing the wrong thing, because when I spoke to him, I never thought about consequences. And the same thing when I was in Tashi Japan and paddled out into the notorious killing cove to protest, the killing of tens of thousands of whale or excuse me dolphins and small whales. I mean, that was another protest. Even though it was fun that we were. Remembering the lives of dolphins. I don't know. Right. Right. Well, you were one of the surfers that paddled out with the, the actress. Hate and planetary. Yeah. Right. Okay. And you guys paddled out and they actually, now that's in the cove movie, you know, they show clips of that. The voters really tried to get you guys off the surfboards and get you out of the cove and you guys were huddled around a couple of dolphins, I believe, that were that they were trying to get and you guys were trying to get them out of the net. Is that right? Yeah, I mean that that was that trip was crazy. I can imagine the fact that we got out of there without going to prison. I mean, yeah. You know, I, that was 2000 October of 2007. Right. And that, that's when I understood that I had become the equal war, because when I got off the plane in Osaka, Japan. Yeah, they pulled, they came and they pulled me out of the customs line about eight customs agents and they came and they grabbed me and they called me like a word, and they knew who exactly who I was. And this is like they knew this is like the authorities. Oh yeah. I was in line, there must have been hundreds of people and they came right to me and pulled me out. And they put me smack dab in the middle of everyone going through customs and made a spectacle out of me. I put all my stuff out of my duffel bag, my boards out. I mean, it was unbelievable. And they were referring to me as the equal order, and asked me why I was in Osaka, Japan, you know, what are you doing here and it was, it was crazy. I had me go and I kid you not, I was followed that whole time, you know, I had a, I had a photographer that was with me Vince there. And, you know, the things that were happening behind the scenes on that trip and being followed and, and, you know, if it wasn't for him. I honestly would have thought I was going crazy because, because you weren't sure if you were being followed or not. But I said, hey Vince, you see those guys, I'm pretty sure that there are so many instances where the craziest things were happening. Vince and I, we like sat in a stairwell talking about it and he was, and we came to a conclusion that we felt that someone had set me up going there. And that's the interesting part about the paddle out. There was two paddle outs. The second one is the one that's captured in the, in the documentary The Cove. That paddle out was Peter Heller, Isabel Lucas, Hayden Panitary, Dave Rostovich. Now, I was in the first paddle out, but that didn't make it to the documentary. And so, the night before the, the paddle out in the movies that was shown, I was waiting for a phone call from Dave Rostovich, and he was going to call and think that was, that was when we were going to leave to go do that paddle out. And so, the strange thing that, that morning at about 4am, I was, I was sound asleep. And they were, and I had even walked into my room and on my quilt, because they do a really nice job of making your bed. Yeah. You know, so it's the sheet is like so tight. Yeah. There are footprints on my bed. And I grabbed Vince and I said, look, there's footprints on my bed. And we, we thought someone had bugged, we thought someone had bugged my room. And, and so the morning of the second paddle out, I was sound asleep. And all of a sudden, I woke to this high pitch sound that was so high pitch. And I was so freaked out. It was like super dark. And I was like, sound asleep. And then I, I figured out, I flipped the lights and the sound was coming from the telephone in my room. And I believe it was bugged. Wow. Yeah. And so what happened, they never came and got me. They left me behind. And our theory was that I was just a decoy, and I was set up the whole time to take their attention away from the actual group. And so that morning, if this is really what happened, I believe it is. And you could ask Vince do her about this. But we think that whoever was watching me had called my room because they had Intel suggest him we were going back. And so, and so, oh, that's what, so that loud pitching sound started, and then the phone rang. So it was like this, this gnarly like high pitch sound, you know, and then also in the phone rang and ring again. And I picked it up. I thought it was Dave. But then nobody was there. So our theory was, I was set up as decoy. And so they were checking to make sure that I was still in the hotel room. And at the same time, everyone else took off. Yeah. And I got left behind. And then I came back to America and lost my sponsors. Because of that. Well, because at the time I was sponsored by Ocean Minded, and they were just recently, they had been recently bought by Crocs and they did a lot of work, or did major sales of Crocs in Japan and someone called and said your guys here and blah, blah, blah, and I got a phone call from the president of Ocean Minded at the time. They clipped me. They cut me. And I was, I mean, I was like in the man's journal, and I mean, CNN. What did you say to that when you found out that, like, because basically, you know, you went to do the protest, they knew you're going to do the protest. Well, yeah, the company's name is Ocean Minded and they cut me. I mean, it's what I refer to as marketing, you know, it's not marketing, it's marketing because it's fake. Yeah. And so I came home and I got cut. And I remember I got cut. And at the time, I think I counted, I was like in 13 different magazines on the newsstand, you know, right. And, and in some circles, we were being held as heroes for taking a stance and paddling out and then, you know, then I got clipped and that's my, my dad always teases me and says, yeah. Hayden Pan Terry's career took off after that and here's kind of down the drain. Well, you know, like, do you regret it? Do you regret going to regret doing what you did? I don't. I don't because I believe in it. What I regret is someone who was supposed to be a leader on that trip left us behind to fend for ourselves and I would never leave anyone behind on my team. And, you know, we were all scared. Yeah, we were all scared, but we were there with one guy guiding us, Dave Ross the bitch and he took off without us, and he dispelled in the middle of the night. And, you know, it was basically myself, Peter Heller and Vince Dure to fend for ourselves. And all three, I mean, you know, gosh, if I wasn't with Vince Dure and Peter Heller. And, and I didn't have those two guys and we weren't together trying to get out of Japan. Yeah. I mean, we were like hiding in stairwells and running through underground parking lots to lose tales and figure out if we were being chased and followed in the evening. And so, you know, I, you know, Dave Rossovich, he left us behind, didn't say anything. I have, I've never, I don't think I've ever spoken to him since. Really? And, you know, I mean, was he the, was he the one, like, how did you guys organize to go over there? I was in, I was in Europe at the time, and I got an email from Dave Rossovich, and he got me to Japan under false pretenses saying, "Hey, we're doing this expression session, Kelly Slater's coming, Aussie Bright, blah, blah, blah." I showed up to a sock in Japan. I thought I was surfing in an expression session. I didn't think I was piling out into the notorious killing cove. Right, right. Did you know about the cove by that point? Before you went over there? I did not. No. No. Did not know. And then when I got there, they sort of gave us some reading material and, and sort of catchy phrases to use with the media or in case we got in trouble. I mean, you know, we honestly, like, we all risked our lives piling out in that cove. I mean, literally. And, you know, some of the people actually got paid to paddle out in the cove. And it was, you know, it was, it was intense. It was scary. And we were lucky. We got out of there. I mean, there are rumors that the cozy. Is that it? Yakuza Yakuza Yakuza. Yeah, basically the Japanese. Yeah. Yeah. So there's rumors that they were after us and. And all sorts of crazy stuff. I remember, you know, we were driving back from it and we went the. We were like. So off course. In the middle of nowhere. And, and out of nowhere also like 20 cop cars surrounded us. Like how the hell they would know that we were there at that time at that exact moment in the middle nowhere and pull us all out. I mean, it was unbelievable. I mean, obviously. Someone either was. You know, giving our information away or we're being followed or I don't know. It was crazy. It was like the Twilight Zone. I'm just glad that. It's so bizarre. Because like when in your life, do you think, first of all, that you'll be doing that kind of thing. And then second of all that you become almost so paranoid that you're trying to. Think about like, you know, is this am I going crazy because I'm being so paranoid or am I being followed or am I going to get arrested or can I even leave the country safely. You know, like that. I mean, it's just it boggles my mind to go do a protest, you know, to go paddle out and try and try and bring attention to these dolphins, which, you know, after a while, if you think about that protest. That fed into the co of the movie, that really brought to light. That was one of the first documentaries that really brought to light that problem. So it did do a good job. However, you know, what are you willing to pay to get that, right? Yeah, let me tell you too. I mean, the guys who did that movie. The guys from OPS, I forget about it. It was oceanic something something. There was a situation society. Yeah, I think that was it. Yeah. And one of the gentlemen's name was Louis Louis, Pissosis. And then the former singer of the samples. Charlie him or something. Right. Yeah. Those, those two guys, they risked their life. They absolutely risked their life filming that movie and finding ways to get in over like barbed wire fences to set up cameras to get that footage. Those guys, I mean, those guys are the real heroes. They risked their life and they went above and beyond. Yeah. I mean, even watching the movie when they go, you know, like you said, past those, like into the actual cove part to really get a good shot of it. And obviously an area that they were not allowed to go into. You really during the movie, you really like, it's been a while since I watched it, but I remember now, like watching that and you're just like your heart speeding. You're like, Oh my gosh, like, are they going to get caught? Like, and this is you're like, no, wait, this is not just a movie. This is for real. No, that wasn't real. That wasn't, you know, everything you saw in that movie was as real as it gets. It wasn't like MTV was in a beach. You know, everyone risked their lives. Absolutely. And the difference between us paddling out and the people making the documentary, we were a group of pretty well known people. Right. And so, if one of us ended up dead or in prison, you know, you'd know about it. Yeah, America, our country would know about it. There, it would not be swept under the rug. There's, there's no way. And so, but then you had these, you hear that a reverb or. No, no, it's a good, no, I don't hear anything. Oh, sweet idea. No, but so the filmmakers, they're the ones who were like. Going to even a step further because no one really knew who they were. They were like underground. They were like, special ops behind the scenes and had those guys got caught. Who knows what could have happened to them? I mean, they could have been killed. They could have been in prison or both. Wow. That's amazing. This is, I had no idea you were a part of that. When I interviewed, I'm glad you mentioned it because I mean, it's, it's interesting to hear all the events that happened before, during and after. And then, you know, how dangerous it actually was and how serious Japan takes the cove and even they're wailing. You know, they take it very, very seriously and you always think, oh, no, no, it's just, you know, it's a conspiracy theory. You know, the government really doesn't care that much and they're not, you know, putting these guys in that much harm's way. But, you know, hearing it from you, you're just kind of like, wow, like they're following people. They're, you know, they're, they're pulling them out of customs lines. They're intimidating them. They're, you know, surrounding them with cop cars and, and especially when you're in a country where you may not know much about, you know, obviously the, there's a language barrier and everything like that. It becomes very scary. It was scary. You know, I mean, I was, I don't know. See, I think I'm kind of like sick because I love that stuff. Well, it's an adrenaline rush. I mean, I will say I do get scared and I was scared. I was really scared. I mean, that was probably just about the most scared I've ever been in my life. Right. But again, I felt like I was doing the right thing. And I believed in what I was doing. And, you know, Vince was with me and Vince is a good friend of mine. And so, you're right, though. I felt like I was going crazy because, you know, there are just these weird coincidences that kept occurring and kept happening in, in like the phone and the footprints on my bed and people following us. And, you know, we kept seeing this car and two guys and then it was almost like there's three different tales on us because we kept seeing these same three cars in Osaka, Japan, and that's almost impossible. Yeah. You know, and so, but Vince, I, you know, Vince was right there with me and, you know, he's a great travel partner. I mean, he's awesome. And he was like, oh, man, you're right. It was crazy. I mean, we still talk about this day. Like, when I see him, he comes out and visits, you know, once a year or so. And, you know, we'll have some, some beverages and, you know, hash it out and chop it up and talk about it. And, man, it was like, it was pretty intense. Yeah. That's something you'll never forget. That's something that's an event you'll never forget about. That's for sure. No. Yeah. And a lot of people, you know, it's, it's, you know, interesting because a lot of people don't know that I was involved in that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, now they do. Yeah. Now they do. It wasn't just hate and penitentiary. Yeah. Well, in industry, like she gets a lot of, you know, a lot of the credit for that because she was sort of the celebrity of that, of that protest. But we don't, like, I didn't know a lot about the other surfers that were there, you know, and who, who decided to do the paddle. I didn't know the whole circumstance. You just hear that they did it. And, of course, she comes out crying, you know, and that makes, you know, a huge deal and sort of in the press and everything like that. She is a good actress. She is. Yeah. No, there's no doubt about that. But I mean, it's also, she also gained a lot of respect out of that. And she's helped bring more light to the cove and dolphin captivity and whatnot, which is, you know, which is great. I mean, that's, that's what you want, no matter what the circumstances are. And it's unfortunate that you were kind of the pawn in that, you know, in that scenario. But, I mean, you know, you did it for a good cause, you know what I mean? I mean, yeah, I was, you know, I think I was the decoy. At some point, I don't know when it started, how it happened, but, you know, I don't really believe in coincidences. You know, I am in Osaka, Japan. I got an email a couple of days before that when I was in either Spain or Portugal and I fly home for a couple of days and I jump on a flight to Osaka. And then I get pulled out of customs. And then he, all the, you know, the phone and being followed. And, you know, I mean, what are the chances of all that happening? No, no, for sure. For sure. But, you know, I wouldn't change any of it. It was, you know, I even, you know, even losing my sponsor and getting cut by ocean minded and, you know, a lot of people don't even know that happened. But, yeah, it's amazing. I mean, I don't think what a lot of people don't realize in this industry, in this field of ocean conservation, however big it is, whether you're on the science aspect, the practitioners were actually doing stuff, advocacy, protesting, all that kind of. There are a lot of sacrifices that we take, you know, and it, and you just spoke of one of them, you know, or a couple of them and, but we do it because we have a passion. And we believe that what we're protesting against or what we're doing science for whatever we're doing, that's what we do it for. We're doing it because we have a passion for it and we believe in it. And that's, you know, and that's reflected in what you do there. But between, you know, Chile and Osaka, Japan, how long were those the two protests there? How long years was between that? Was it like four years, five years? No, no, two years at the most. So between that, like, you know, they kind of knew you as the eco warrior when you got to Osaka, Japan, had you been doing other protests or other advocacy programs in between those, those two, like Chile and Osaka? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was traveling a lot in a lot of different environmental actions around the world. And, you know, at the time, like, I took a lot of heat being the eco warrior. Like, even in my hometown, people were like calling the eco warrior and stuff like that. And it was kind of like, I don't know why, but at the time, 10 years ago, everyone thought eco warrior was this big scary, like self-proclaimed moniker. Like, as if I came up with it on my own accord, you know, and, and it was, yeah, it was, you know, it was like, people thought I had become, like, radicalized more or less. They thought I was, like, some radical, like, I don't even know why, because it's warrior like that bolt of a name. Well, I think it's all. I don't think so. I think, I think what it is, is when people start speaking out against environmental events or destruction, other people get annoyed. I find this a lot where, if I say something, like, if I go over to somebody's house and be like, I see like a plastic fork or a plastic spoon and I ask for, you know, like a metal utensil because I don't want to use a plastic utensil, they're all like, oh, what, you know, is this one little thing in a runy environment. You're so full of it and this and that. And you just kind of like, it pisses me off because you're just like, no, like, I'm trying to, I'm trying to live my life the way I want to do it. I want to live an environmentally conscious life, but people think that, you know, I get an ego because of it and I think I'm better than them because they're using that. And because I'm like, I'm always looking out for the environment or I'm always speaking up for the environment. People are like, you keep doing that. It gets annoying. But it's like, no, this is me. This is what I am. And if you don't like it, that's fine. You know, you don't have to be part of my life, but this is me. Right. Just like you have a comedian who's always making jokes, that's them. You know what I mean? And, and, and if you, if your friends with actors or actresses or people in the theater, they're going to overdramatize everything. That's them. You know, it's just, you just have to deal with it. If you don't, you just, you just don't deal. But I find a lot of people get abrasive and defensive, you know, when they're around people who are environmentally conscious. Yeah, I think anytime someone's stepping outside, doing a little bit more than somebody else, people, you know, you're doing something out of the bubble out of the comfort zone. Yeah. Maybe you bring out something in that person and they're thinking, maybe I should be doing more. Yeah. And, you know, I've never understood the correlation between speaking up because you believe in something and ego. Like, I don't see, you know, where ego comes into that. Like, listen, I grew up on the beach. My first love has always been the ocean. You look at the arc of my life. Yeah. It's, there's not even an arc. It's just a straight line. It's just a straight line. Yeah. And I, you know, at the time when I became the equal war and it was like, you know, I was in a lot of magazines, fuel TV, did a documentary about me and people just, they were like, you know, oh, this guy, blah, blah, blah. And I just, I just, I never understood it. I really didn't. And luckily today. Like, you know, luckily today, all that kind of stuff is kind of, you know, washed away and it's not, it's not what it once was but, you know, it's, I don't know, I guess it's part of being an equal warrior. Earning your stride. Yeah. But I think you're right. I think nowadays people are, are more on your side because you're sort of speaking up for the environment. And, and I find the same thing with me as well is when I start speaking about things, people are listening more and they're like, Oh, right, right, right, right. Okay. I understand now. And they're less defensive and more on your side to be like, Oh, okay. So this is what we need to do. Or, Oh, so if I do this and they ask more questions and they, they try and figure things out, right. And I find now it's easier, easier to do that. But I have to ask the equal warrior, when did you really like use that, you know, in terms of as an organization? When did it become a foundation? Yeah. Yeah. We got our nonprofit status. I believe the post date on the letter was April 19, 2014. Okay. Yeah. So it's more recent now and that you're really starting to use the, you know, become the foundation and really start to solidify things. Yeah, absolutely working on the infrastructure and, you know, it's more or less. I've been a event promoter organizer. But now now we're building more infrastructure and, you know, looking to start raising money to expand the foundation because it's kind of outgrown itself already and we don't, we don't. We haven't actively been fundraising. We've just been putting on events for the community to be involved in, whether it's our adopted beach program, our upstream initiative, our essay contest and our contest with kids. So up into this point, it's all been about community based events, but now we need to begin building a real infrastructure and taking it to the next level and and start looking for funding. Right. You know, we actually do work. Yeah. It's true. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we are, you know, today's term is grassroots. Yeah, I would say we're old fashioned boots on the ground, getting our hands dirty. You know, that's what, I mean, that sounds like from your program, let's talk about some of your programs, the, the adopted beach. How does the adopted beach program work. So adopt the beach program is a partnership with, with the California coastal commission. That is really their program. Okay. And so, basically the adopted beach program. Is through the California coastal commission, and we, we in Laguna beach, we're just responsible for the adopted beach program in Laguna, and that runs through our foundation. So when I was looking at starting my own foundation, I was, I was looking around at other nonprofits. And quite frankly, there's a lot of nonprofits. I have no idea what they do. Yeah. You know, I think, you know, having fancy online campaigns. Isn't enough raising awareness. We don't need to raise awareness. I mean, we're all pretty aware of what's happening in our world. But, you know, awareness needs to be replaced by action. And we're all, we're all action. You know, we're in waterways picking up litter. We're on the beaches picking up litter. We're in the ocean picking up litter. We're at schools and we're speaking and we're working with kids and educating. And, you know, that's really the premise and the foundation of the foundation. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, it's interesting. And it's interesting how you went. You guys, you chose to like clean up trash. You know, as, as sort of your primary focus with the adopted beach, the upstream program. It's interesting because you think like there's so much garbage that goes into the ocean on a daily basis worldwide and even locally, right? Even within the laguna beach. We've talked about it. And you need almost, you know, obviously there's that the education, like in the schools to talk about to the kids about reducing the use of plastics. And this is the damage it can do. And this is how you reduce. But there's always a need to take garbage out and prevent it from getting into the ocean. And it can be like, do you find those programs where you're picking up trash can be really community based where you can get a lot of, you can rally a lot of people to come out to a beach or upstream and say, let's clean up together as a community. Absolutely. A hundred percent. You know, I don't look at it as beach cleanups. I see it as community based events. And, and, you know, going back to when I was looking at other nonprofits and what they do. You know, one, I really didn't know what a lot of them were doing and other than raising a lot of money. Yeah. Number two, I felt like I needed to find a niche, like a particular niche and focus on that and do that really well and then grow it from there. And that really was inspired by Myra Khan, who had sent me an email and I just happened to be in Thailand at the time. And she said, you know, in a nutshell, so great, all this wonderful work you're doing around the world. But what about your own town, your backyard, you know, there's so many people that want to get involved that you inspire and that want to participate. And it was like, you know, I had been thinking about the time because, you know, you can't really recruit people who go fly to Japan to. That's tough. Yeah. You know, what am I like, invite people to paddle out into the killing cove or sell from Rio to Cape Town or right. Hey, join me in a protest march in the south of Chile. So, you know, I just, I were realistic to do a beach event, like a beach cleanup event. Yeah, I mean, I want to do something that was, you know, community based empowering and maybe was the first step to somebody getting more involved, getting back to our oceans and beaches. Right. Now, how did did you find it difficult? Like, how did you go about talking to the community? Like to get them to come out? Was it just more like, you know, you put up some posters or you talk to some people at the local beach that had more of a leadership role? Since you've been traveling all this time, I'm sure you knew a lot of people in the community, but did you, did you find it difficult to rally the community to come out to these events or how did you go about it? For your first event, I guess, what my question would be about. Yeah, our first beach cleanup was in partnership with the Pacific Edge Hotel in Laguna Beach. Okay. And, you know, I mean, there's social media today, which is like unbelievable. You know, I hear these people dismissing Facebook and Twitter and Instagram. But hey, you know, if you're like, if you're somebody like me and you have zero money and you need to market and you need to get the word out and you need to put it free of charge, there's nothing better than Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, I mean, Snapchat and all that stuff. And so, I mean, we're just, we're like, you know, just build a fire and send out SOS says today, we're going to have a beach cleanup tomorrow, basically, you know, and, you know, luckily, I was, you know, basically born and raised in Laguna Beach, you know, I've lived there. I've lived there. I've lived in Laguna my whole life. I mean, Laguna is my town. And so, you know, it was pretty smooth, really. So, you know, it's people like are looking forward to our next beach cleanup, our next upstream initiative. And, you know, just baby steps. I mean, you know, our foundation is, you know, there's four of us on the board. And two of us, you know, basically myself work in 24/7 and then Natasha Darling does a great job with our marketing and social media and she helps, you know, with some planning and organizing as well. But it's, you know, it's like a one man band. Yeah, you know, but it's time to like, you know, take it to a new level and start building more infrastructure and looking for funding and really taking it to the next level. Right. Now, what do you, if you can share it, what do you plan on doing to take it to the next level? What's the plan in the future? Well, I mean, when I say the next level, I mean, like more presentable, you know, I get asked to speak at schools and I speak at schools and I share my experience of having a dream of one day becoming a pro surfer and then, you know, and then after my career giving back to what's given me so much in my life and I speak at schools and, you know, we don't even have literature. I don't have literature to leave behind with the kids. Right. Take away. You know, we don't have, you know, eco warrior literature. We don't have. I mean, I don't even have cards, not that I really want cards, but you know, just to give you an example of like, we don't have, we don't have eco warrior tents. We don't have banners. We don't have t-shirt. I mean, we don't have anything. And, you know, when I start talking about it, it kind of upsets me actually. Well, I can understand. But if you think about it, think about what you've done already without all that stuff. Yeah. And think about how much more. I mean, what you're talking about a lot of is the branding and marketing and having people remember the organization. And I think it's extremely important. And I agree. It's a necessity. And we just built our website. I mean, we finally got a website and Natasha basically built that, you know, and I helped her sort of. And, but, you know, we're like, you know, blue collar. We do it ourselves. Hey, man, that's, that's what you need to do. And then, and to be honest, let me think about who you're inspiring, who you're getting out to these events and you're cleaning up beaches, not only at the beach, but upstream before it actually reaches the beach. You're getting people out, you know, and it seems really how many, how many events do you hold per year? I think we, we did nine cleanups last year. Nine cleanups. Yeah. And I think we were just about around guesstimating 3000 pounds of litter trash recyclables. And, you know, back to your point though, you know, I also feel, you know, when you have a foundation and it's named eco warrior. Yeah. You know, it can't be fancy, fancy, you know what I mean. I agree. It's got to be a little, a little gritty. I was just going to say, got to be gritty, you know, we're boots on the ground, getting our hands dirty, you know, we're like, we're sort of like the second coming up green piece. Yeah. No, or sea shepherd really. I mean, I, you know, I've worked with, you know, I've come across both foundations and their philosophies and I identify with green pieces and sea shepherd more than I do. I don't want to throw anyone under the bus, like, like Oceana or Surfrader, but right, you know, but I mean, if you think about there's, that's what's good about this field is there's lots of different philosophies. There's lots of different ways of going about it. And that's what people do. The people will, will go about their ways and doing it. I mean, to be honest, there's one real goal. And that's to protect the ocean. Right. And, you know, I like when I first started, I used to not like what sea shepherd did. And I used to not like the aggressiveness and things like that. And then, you know, and I still don't like the violence aspect of it. It's kind of like, oh, oh, they stop, you know, they kind of slow jab Japan from, from, you know, from, from hunting whales. Okay. Great. You know what I mean? Like they protected the ocean. They did that final thing that nobody is willing else is willing to do. They did that. You know, your organization, I don't really see it as a sea shepherd. I see it as a community based organization that's really teaching people. I mean, you're taking the values that you had when you were, when you were a kid, that you were taught when you were a kid to take care of the beach, you know, make sure pollution doesn't get in the water. You know, thank the beach and the ocean for the all the stuff that they did for you. And you're coming back and you're teaching, you're instilling that in not only the kids, but the adults and the families that are around the going to be saying, we need to protect this. Just from a point of, we need to take care of this, you know, not only just to protect the ocean, the ethical part, but we just need to take care of our community. And I think that's important. I think that instills not only just a great leadership role for your organization, eco warrior, but I think it just, it teaches everybody just to like, Hey, this is a better way of teaching them to say, you know, if you see a piece of trash, pick it up. You know, even if it's not yours, pick it up, put it in the trash, you know, do your part. Do your part. And, and, you know, in, you know, when I mentioned, like, Oceana, and I mentioned Surfrider, you know, I know the director of Surfrider, and I have no, no problem with him. I have no problem with Surfrider, you know, because, and this is incredibly important to keep in mind. And this is something that that's really disappointing in the world of environmentalism is that big foundations don't work with other foundations. And that's what's bothersome and that's why I mentioned some of these by names, because listen, when it comes to our ocean, our beach, our waterways, it's not mine, it's not yours, it's collectively all of ours. And if, if you're really in this for the betterment of our environment, you should be willing to work with everybody. And you shouldn't take away from other people, other foundations, and try to just make it yours. And I've said it from the very beginning, the Eco Warrior Foundation will always have an open door policy and work with any foundation and any person. And, and when I say, I identify more with, you know, C shepherd, it's not the same values, and same a green piece. But what I mean when I say, I identify more with them, I do, because I'm a guy that's in the trenches, you know, I've been in the trenches for years, you know, I've, I've risked my life, literally, I have risked my life for what I believe in, and for the betterment of our environment and in sea life. And unfortunately, I don't agree with everything green piece does, and I don't agree with everything C shepherd does. However, I see those, those foundations are in the trenches, day in and day out, and they live it, and they get, you know, they go places where other people aren't willing, and I've been one of those people willing to do that. And some of these other fancy organizations, I mean, they, they raised millions of dollars, millions of dollars. And, you know, I went to this party, this Oceania party at Pelican Hill, it was like one of the fanciest, most fancy parties I've ever been to, probably cost them upwards of a half million dollars. Let me tell you, if someone gave me a half million dollars, I would change the world. I guarantee you, I would change the world. And I walk in this party at Pelican Hill, and it's Oceania, and they're like giving each other the silly awards, and I'm looking around and there's chocolate fountains, and I mean, Ted Danson's there and all these people, and it's like, wow, like, I've had a fraction of that money for our foundation. I would change the world. I believe that. And so, yeah. Yeah, you know what, I think, I think it's a, like I said, it's very different philosophies. And, and I think it's one of those things where it's, there are some people who are like yourself, and I agree with you that it's all about, let's get out there and let's, let's get some action done. Let's get some stuff done. Let's, you know, pound the pavement, pound the sand, pound the water. Let's get in there and let's, let's do something. You know, and you see a lot of other organizations who don't work with others as well as a lot of the smaller organizations will, you know, and I do, I think that's a travesty. I think that all the organizations should work together and, and really, and really team up because, to be honest, the funds are just not there for everybody. And I find that the way the funding system is, and I don't want to get into too much, but the way the funding system is, is it's making everybody compete against themselves. And if people had more of an open door policy where they can say, hey, look, yes, we got all this money, but we can really leverage that money by teaming up with a lot of different organizations, we can do a lot better. We can actually have more of an impact in action, whether it be through policy all the way down to actions on the ground. We can do a lot of that kind of stuff. And I think that's important. I really do. And I think it's lacking in, in the ocean conservation industry. And I'm glad you brought it up because, you know, there are some people who, like yourselves, there's Chris Bone, who's got an organization in, in New Zealand and all over the world now called Oceans Watch. And, and he's the same way. He feels the same way. If he had, you know, half a million dollars, he could change the world and, and, you know, and it's, it's amazing what people can do when they don't have a lot and they just get a little bit of money that the impact that they can have. Compared to people who think they need all the money and they need, they need more and more and more of it to make a bigger impact. It's amazing the different philosophies and the impact that they can, that they both make and the differences and impacts that they make, you know, in terms of actual action. And it's, I'm glad you brought it up. I really am because it's, it's something that needs to be, that needs to be discussed. Right. I mean, I, I've always believed that, you know, I can make a difference. Together collectively, we can all make an even bigger difference. And that's what's important here. And that's what we need to keep in mind that we need to start working together more. Yeah, these isolated foundations and these isolated environmentalists. I mean, we need to, you know, unfortunately, there's a lot of ego involved in environmentalism. And it's, we need to get rid of that. We need to work together and we need to band together and we got to stop. Raising so called awareness and we need to start taking more action and doing something about it. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think, you know what, those are great words. I just liked at the time and we've been on this for a while. And this has been fantastic. I didn't even realize at the time. But that's a great, I think that's a great way to end the interview. I think, I think it's, it's. No matter what size organization, no matter what you do, no matter what your plan is, is to be open to other organizations. Working with other people, working with communities and just really getting, getting stuff done. You know what I mean? And getting out there and, and, and, and whether it be in the courts, whether it be in the government, whether it be, you know, on the coast, on a, on a beach. Just get stuff done. Let's get some action done. And that's what we stop talking about it and getting some action done. Do your part. Take action. That's awesome. Anyway, yeah, James, I mean, that's, this is awesome. I'm glad we got together. I'm glad we recorded this. And, and I think it's, I think it's great. I'm glad that we're going to get your story out there. And I just want to thank you for what you're doing. I really do appreciate and all the stuff that you've done and all the stuff that you're going to do. And I think it's, it's really important. What I'd like to do is invite you back on the show and see how, how the organization is doing and what you've been up to in, in, in maybe six, six months a year down down the road and get you, get us talking about different subject matters and ocean conservation in general. Sounds great. I look forward to it. Thank you. That's awesome. Just stand. I'm going to, I'm going to pause it, but just stay on the line for just a second. Okay. So that was James Pribum of the Eco Warrior Foundation, Pro Surfer, and just all around. Awesome guy, somebody I look forward to hanging out within the future and, and really collaborating with an eco warrior foundation. I think speak up for blue and eco warrior have a lot of interesting ideas that we could put together and, and a lot of work that we can do and awareness that we can bring about. But it was just a really interesting conversation. Don't you think it was, you know, from the, from what he went through in Osaka, Japan to, you know, how he feels about the, the conservation industry, the ocean conservation industry and how it works. And he's right. There are a lot of organizations that won't share. And it's not just necessarily because of the people of that organization. It's because of the way the system is set up. We are all competing against one another for money. And we're all trying to be different, but a lot of us are the same. And it's becomes very difficult for organizations to survive on their own, yet not a lot of organizations tend to team up because they're still competing for that money. And they all want to go about their own way. They only want to do it their own way. And it becomes very difficult that way for collaborations to happen, which is really where the action really takes place. So it'll be interesting to see what happens in the future. But, you know, things need to change. And the way the system is set up, it needs to change as well. And it will, because it's forced to. But anyway, I just thought that was a great interview. I have to admit, the story of James and Osaka and the paddle out and all the stuff that he went through being followed and everything like that. I did not expect. I actually didn't know that about him. That was a real surprise when I found out about that. So thanks, James, for sharing. I really, you know, thanks for sharing all the stuff that you shared. I think it was a really great interview that way. But anyway, I appreciate you guys listening. Thank you very much. You've listened. You've been listening to Speaker for the new podcast on interview Wednesdays. Happy Wednesday. And happy conservation. My name is Andrew Lewin, signing up. [MUSIC PLAYING]
