Welcome to the speaker for blue podcast session 140 Welcome everybody. It is Friday. That means it's ocean talk Friday. So I got on blab on Wednesday When we actually recorded this episode with Nathan Johnson and we talked about a bunch of things a couple stories four stories to be exact One of them was where I'll have all the adult whale sharks gone The other ones were marine protected areas in localized areas in New Zealand to protect snapper and crayfish We talked to end up the implications of that. We talked also About it's been such a long time. I don't know what we talked about. We talked about. Oh, yeah We talked about a bizarre creature called the kite and and what it has on its back You'll be very surprised of what it has. It's an armored something something that we have that's not armored It's very interesting so stay tuned for that and the last but not least There was a research vessel named Bodie McBoatface. We talked about why that's important for ocean conservation why it's important to engage Non-scientific people and we had a great conversation about that So that's all on this episode of Ocean Talk Friday on the speaker for blue podcast stay tuned Welcome to the speak up for blue podcast helping you get involved in ocean conservation and now here's your host He just discovered periscope and might be slightly addicted and drew Lewin Hey everybody welcome back to another exciting episode of the speak up for blue podcast your voice for the ocean I am your host angel Lewin founder speak up for blue.com marine ecologist and self-proclaimed ocean printer That's right. I'm an entrepreneur and everything I do is to protect the ocean. Isn't that great? Anyway today is Ocean Talk Friday one of my favorite days of the week with this new structure of two to three podcasts a week mostly three just I took Monday off it's really nice to kind of get back into to podcasting and Talking to Nathan who is my co-host on the show today. We got on Blab, which is a live streaming site Unfortunately, we didn't have anybody show up. I've been trying to get people to show up so that they can take part in Ocean Talk Friday So that we can engage the community the speaker of blue community. It's what we want to do. It's what we love to do So if you next Wednesday at 9 p.m. Eastern if you want to chat or just listen to us talk about these These articles that we talk about please feel free to join in You can have your say We're not going to chastise you. We're not going to make fun of you. We will have a good time I guarantee it it'll be a lot of fun And it's just good to hear other people's opinions except, you know other than just mine and Nathan's I think it's I think it's very important. That's the whole point of the speak up for blue community so with that said please think about joining us all you have to do is just use your Twitter account to log in or you can use your email to Register and you just have to follow at speak up for blue. That's all you have to do. It's really easy So what next Wednesday at 9 p.m. Eastern also everyone some of all Tuesdays I will be doing an interview and you can get in on that as well through Blap So it's it's a really good way of doing things anyway, so today we talked about four articles like we do every day the first article we talk about how marine scientists are educating youth and The local community on using marine reserves to control the decline of snapper and crafus populations They have a very important role in these habitats. You're gonna find out all about it It's very similar to the west coast of the of the US of the US not US of the US where You know you have sea otters and kelp and how they are Interlinked so it's a very similar that way just a couple different species we also talk about the naming of a boat of a research vessel recently that was named by the internet and It voted in as Bodie Mick boatface and we talk about Andrew David Taylor over at Southern Fried Science He wrote an article about this and how it's good for engagement science and science engagement ocean conservation engagement And we kind of agree with him we talk about different things kind of come up with some other names For animals and stuff like that that have been put on the internet is it was a lot of fun to talk about Third article we talk about our Titans are they're a mollusk. They're very They're sessile very tough to get off rocks But they have a very cool feature and I want to tell you what that feature is now all I can tell you it's protected We have the same feature and it's not very protected. So we're gonna talk about that. It's nothing sexual Don't worry about it But we're gonna talk about that because that's very interesting and the last one is kind of what I like to title Where have all the adult whale sharks gone? And this is an article where there was a study done a preliminary study done at Ningaloo in Ningaloo reef In Australia and they noticed that they only saw juvenile At most juvenile whale sharks and they want to find out where the adult whale sharks are Have they been killed have they like have they been hunted so much they've been killed off? Are they going somewhere else where are they and how do they find them and we had a very interesting talk Nathan and I about that and maybe a potential to Get some interest in assistance a worldwide citizen science project. So I thought that was pretty kind of interesting. So Enjoy the talk. I love we know I love doing ocean talk Friday and and think about joining in on blab. I am I think it'll be a lot of fun every Wednesday 9 p.m. Eastern I have to do is just log in and go to blob. I am and log in either using a registry they're using your Twitter account or an email and Then you can have access work to all the different conversations on blab You just look up speak up for blue and you'll find us and then you just subscribe to that show and it'll send you an email reminding you of where we are so That's all you have to do. It's really simple and I hope you enjoy this This talk as I hope you enjoy every talk that we have and please comment on our show notes speak up for blue dot com forward slash session 140. We're already at 140 episodes. This is amazing So I really appreciate you guys listening and sharing and commenting and whatnot and interacting I'd like more engagement on social media. I'm trying to you know speak out and speak up for people and speak out to people and say Hey, what do you think of this article and whatnot? I think it's really important that we engage in a community. So Thank you very much for listening. I really appreciate it. So here is Nathan and I talking on ocean talk Friday about the articles Hey, Nathan. Welcome back to another ocean talk. How you doing buddy? I'm doing great. How about you? I am awesome I've noticed I of course we've chatted a couple times. You got a haircut this this week. So this is a little different Getting getting camera ready. Is that it getting camera ready? It's warming up Shedding my my outer layer of fur. I love how you say it's warming up and you live in Texas. I mean come on It was it was 16 degrees. It was the warmest day. We've had this in 2016 so far and you're talking about shaving your head It was about 65 degrees today. I don't like you. I don't like you at all. Anyway Anyway, today we got a jam-packed some jam-packed stories We're here on blab again. So if people kind of come in and they want to chat they can do so If you go to blab.im and you follow speak up for blue, you can just come in and join in the chat I've also put it on a Twitter feed So if people want to join in through that link you can all you need to do to log in I think is a Twitter is a Twitter account so or you can just use your email to register. So let's get started Why don't you talk about the first story we have? This first one is sort of a local MPA issue out in New Zealand in what's I think it's pronounced the Heraki Gulf. Yeah But it's it's an area that is popular for good-sized snapper and crayfish, so kind of economically important things that we see them a lot around here down in Texas, too and they're very heavy heavily fished a couple species so The snapper and the crayfish in this gulf area are sort of keystone predators or keystone species And that they have a disproportionate effect on the rest of it. So if you remove one or both of those You tend to get a negative impact on the ecosystem and that it shifts to something. It's that's not normally characteristic of that area so In this instance a lot of the especially the snapper eat up the kelp in the area or eat up the urchin Sorry the area the urchins in turn are what prey on the kelp So the more snapper you have the less urchins you have the more kelp you have Tenses to be a more productive system So with the snapper being heavily fished in these areas you're seeing a lot more urchins The urchins tend to over graze a lot of this kelp But then the urchins themselves are also affected because as they over graze the ecosystem itself shifts They said the urchins tend to get more sick in these areas and die off I would imagine so they're they're not only Increasing originally in population, but then as they over graze the kelp. They're also decreasing themselves as well. So This local area Mostly headed up by a couple researchers are trying to establish an MPa our marine protected area so that these Snapper and crayfish species can rebound they the article that I'm looking at talks about how Other group called save our beaches The quote is don't want them established them being the MPa's off these beaches because they say will increase tourism and affect residents So again, it's just kind of an interesting case study of you have one group saying we need to protect this ecosystem first and foremost and it'll also increase the Fisheries for snapper and crayfish in the area by protecting them then you have another group says well if you protect them You're more likely to see a lot of tourists a lot of divers Come to these areas and we really don't want to have heavy tourism here So we'd rather not see an MPa because that's going to increase also the foot traffic and yeah The footprint of this group So it's it's kind of an interesting scenario that we've talked about a lot But I think it's good to sort of bring up these these local problems because although to talk a lot about large MPa's and international discussions to establish these areas I think it's also good to remember that sometimes these can be very small scale and that doesn't make them any less important Yeah, I agree. I mean I just find interesting a couple things I find interesting the first is The example they give how snappers eat urchins because urgency and urchins graze on on kelp is almost one of the classic Ecology examples, you know food web examples that are given I think we've mentioned this before as we go through school except on here in north america It's uh, you know, you got the um the otters the california sea otters that eat the urchins And when the sea otters went down because of hunting the sea otter population The urchin population increased and the kelp population went down And then so that habitat degraded and then everything that the habitat supports the diversity Um the fish community the stability everything Went went away. So when they brought the sea otters back they ate more of the urchins The urchins ate less of the kelp the kelp came back and then the habitats came back, which was fantastic So I find that you know an interesting like this is something that is still of practice, you know Except it's just a different sort of top predator species with the snapper You know the snapper graze on the urchins the urchins don't grid not as many urchins graze on the kelp But it's still enough to control the habitat of the kelp Um, so I find that interesting the second thing I find interesting is the group that's opposing this or or you know Challenging it to a certain degree is called save our beaches I find that interesting and I understand their point You know if you make it a protected area, you make it almost a bit of a tourist attraction and then You know, you're getting a lot of the residents will get an influx of tourism And usually a lot of people think oh increase in tourism. That's better, especially from a government perspective You're bringing in money bring in tourism, but it sounds like the and I don't know the area at all But it sounds like this area might be a quiet residential neighborhood and you you know, so if it's zoned properly You know, if it's zoned as a resident residential neighborhood, then they have nothing to worry about Right zone is a commercial area then, you know, you're gonna see a lot more shops You're gonna see a lot more development going on and maybe they don't want that but that's the whole point of part of the marine reserves when you get stakeholders involved at the beginning you listen to their concerns and you Focus in on those concerns and you try and address each and every one of those concerns as best as possible And I find a lot of people don't understand that when they see it when I read the article at first I was like, oh, you know, this group at first I found it funny that this group was was protesting it because you think would be better for the beach However, I understand where they were coming from after I read it a bit But you can see I can see a lot of people who don't know the process of how marine reserves are established You know can say oh wait a minute. This isn't there This isn't going through because there's somebody who's challenging this There are a lot of ways that we could step around these marine reserves Or or switch the management within the marine reserves if you put a marine reserve right close to the beach you can You can you can exclude anything you want on it that includes swimming So that wouldn't that wouldn't increase tourism, you know what I mean? So there are different ways of actually excluding specific areas specific of of recreational swimming recreational diving recreational You know kayaking or canoeing or whatever it is You can exclude that to appease that local group to save the safe the beach group The important part is here is you're trying to you know save some habitats and that's the main goal of these marine resources Make sure that these habitats stay intact and and I think that's important I think I think they need to be I like how they're going the marine reserve routes It sounds like it's a council I don't know how the government's set up there, but it sounds like it's a council. It sounds very local Right localized and I'm sure it has the the support of of the federal government But I just I don't know enough about the that the polity the political system there to say Whether you know this council is a big to do or not But it sounds like they're more localized or regionalized And you know they I love how they went right for the marine reserve That's going to protect their fisheries for sure. I mean that's it's known to protect fisheries It's known to protect habitats. That's the whole point Uh, so I think uh, I think that'll be interesting because I'm assuming it's the crayfish in the snapper They're getting fished out because of the commodities. Well, you now they'll just have to wait until they there's a spillover effect And uh, the fishermen are just gonna have to wait now But they're gonna have to work the government's gonna have to work with the fishermen to make sure That there are peas and that they can still make a living and be sustainable because they're not going to like this right off the bat Right What are your thoughts on this? Um Yeah, I I agree. I mean there's there's not an easy answer for this type of thing just because like you said, it's it's a very local Uh question, you know, the people who are advocating to not have the mpa To reduce tourism is is a valid argument if you live there and you know, you're you're not in favor of opening this area up to the public but I think you could also make the argument that the decline of snapper and crayfish Is going to hurt this community in more ways than just an ecological shift So I think I don't know. I mean, I would imagine that argument's been made but I think that's kind of the thing you're looking at is that the urchin population and the Shift away from a kelp based ecosystem is probably just the beginning of what could really change this area and quite honestly Uh, you know tourists are going to come if tourists want to come. Yep having an mpa Yes, it might allow for greater tourism activity in the area, but that's not necessarily a bad thing if it can be controlled properly um Because it can provide revenue for that neighborhood in reform of eco tourism. So I think You know, I would advocate for the mpa there just because um To me the increase in tourism seems like a small price to pay for Yeah, I mean if you would even call it a price for The protection of this what sounds like a very critical coastal ecosystem. Yeah Definitely well, especially for not only for for An ecosystem point of view or habitat point of view, but it definitely is important to the social economics of that local area There are obviously a lot of fishermen that are involved in this and I think they're gonna have to be um, they're gonna have to be As they're gonna have to be you know, any part of the process of these of these marine reserves and hopefully they'll understand And maybe a lot of them already do understand the importance of putting in these marine reserves However, there might have to be a little bit of subsidies to put in to make sure that these these fishermen can still make a living Yeah, oh, yeah for food on the table right while this process happens Um, but you know, I just the reason I mentioned it is just because I want to make sure that people knew That that's how a lot of the marine project area processes are done is you really have to look at Stakeholders and see yeah how they are working, right? So But yeah, I think it's a great process. I think it's good. I love how they were going Right towards marine reserves. I think that's that's going to be important in the future where people are like, no We need to put in marine reserves and not only one they want to put in a few You know, it sounds like many things and and I think that's that's uh, that's good because it's gonna be small There're gonna be many they're gonna pick important areas They're probably gonna pick areas that are you know hot spots for feeding on urchins or hot spots for Spawning or hot spots for nursing who knows, right? But they're gonna have to probably some more research in the area and I think it'll be I think it'll be beneficial in the end Especially because it's localized. I think that'll be important, right? So so yeah, so let's go on to the next story. I'll take care of the next story Um, this is a story coming out. I love this story I I saw this over the weekend. I think right before the weekend now this story It was written by of course one of our favorites, uh, Andrew David Taylor I believe on uh southern fried science and he wrote a story on naming of boats And the reason why he he wrote this story is because there's a recent boat that was that was named by the internet I I believe it was named by the internet. It doesn't really say in the story, but I think from what I know This this vessel company that made the boat said, okay, we're gonna name this this ship And we're going to name it a specific name, but we don't know what that name is We'll let you guys pick the internet that is and you guys can actually You know vote on the name and then vote which name you like best somehow Someone came up with boaty McBoatface Probably the best name I've ever heard for a vessel And I guess I'm assuming this was a research vessel That they wanted that they wanted to name because that's what the whole point of the article was and Andrew was saying that Having a boat named like this for a research vessel an oceanographic research vessel Is probably the best idea you'd come up with because it's engaging this story went viral It went viral so viral that people started to rename animals. Did you see this? Did you hear about this? Yeah, I've got the rattlesnake picture printed out and posted at my desk at work Isn't that awesome? So for the audience members people would made these memes of Of animals and they'd put the names that they thought would be great Like a trend there was a picture of a tarantula and there was a renamed nope Like they don't want anything to do with it. There was a bear like a grizzly bear and that was called furry nope There was a cobra snake That was called danger noodle And one of my favorites a camel was called hot moose. I like that one brings a little Canadian flavor to that. I like that one a lot and then the My girls loved the skunk Because that was called. Do you see the skunk one now? It was called fart squirrel Fart squirrel. I love it So it was just fun names of people how they describe how they think of the animals and and and and how they They decide this is what I would rename it if I had the choice that are that's kind of comical and humorous And there's like a list of 30 of them. It's it's kind of fun fun to watch But the thing is it makes people like that that That episode like you know, you look at this research vessel boating McBoatface and if you put anything else like any research on in the future And you say hey the vessel name that they went on was hey This was their first excursion with boating McBoatface and this is what they found People are going to listen people are going to read it or they're going to listen to a video or whatever they're going to do They can do a tour boating McBoatface and have a whole thing they can brand it whatever they want to do But this is engaging and it's funny because the people who Are listening to this on the podcast on their phone Nathan's got the biggest smile every time I say boating McBoatface. You can't stop laughing That's how good this name is you can't know it smile when you say boating McBoatface After reading like a manuscript and it gets to the methods and they're like Researchers spent two months collecting data aboard boating McBoatface It was just making it so much more enjoyable the methods are the worst part of the paper Oh, I agree and and and so it's enjoyable for scientists who reading like you know These tend to be dry journal articles and you have this get thrown in the middle And then for people who aren't scientists and who are reading about this research it may not be You know the research could be on who knows genetics or something like that But because it's on a vessel called boating McBoatface. It's going to get it's going to get airtime It's going to get it's going to get published on on websites and say hey first excursion of boating McBoatface was a success Here are the scientists and here's a tour and you can make a whole thing out of it And you can make it really engaging for people who are not really Scientists and who don't really know a lot about science. It can get them encouraging for the people who renamed the animals They had to look up the animals There are people who are actually going online looking up images of animals and coming up with different names It's engaging they actually like that animal more because they renamed it. You know what I mean? Like it's it's just it makes sense. It makes people involved And it's kind of what I was talking about on Wednesdays episode with citizen science where But one of the major points of citizen science is to get people actively involved and increase their scientific literature uh, or sorry, um Not yeah literature What is it literacy literacy? Thank you. Thank you. I should I need to learn my vocabulary Um, but yeah, so it increases their scientific literacy and and that's the same thing What this does is this has a has an engaging method that can really increase people's scientific literacy Just by naming a boat a funny name and not some dry name You know, there are there are boats that are named after people usually deceased and and Andrew makes the argument how he doesn't like the names of people who are deceased because You know of research vessels about the future. It's about change And, you know, if you name somebody who's passed away who even though they were important That name may not, you know signify what this research vessel is all about It's just more of you know providing respect for for someone who's deceased who who may have made a contribution um, but you want something that is You know something catchy something understandable even I think he names off a couple of names that are not Sort of things like the challenger. Um, what was the other couple? There's a couple of other one Who's voyager was thrown up there boyager endurance curiosity challenger endeavor Those are names that people like because they're engaging Um instead of him saying like he I think he used like oh, what if you name after a deceased president like the ronald reagan It just doesn't have the same ring to it people like oh, yeah, that makes sense ronald reagan But boating mcboe face people are gonna be like, huh? I I like I want to hear more about boating mcboe face like why would you name a boat boating mcboe face? You know these scientists actually have some fun, right? And I think more ships because should be named that or say it should be named a name like that because That makes people be like, you know get their curiosity going and really get into it. What do you think? I think it's the best idea. Yeah for naming Anything science related. I mean one Also to be fair the internet could have come up with a lot worse. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm sure they did they just didn't publish I mean, I'm I'm kind of surprised that this is the top Not something just completely inappropriate. Yeah, I was expecting something vulgar. Yeah, and I'm sure there was I'm sure they took it down I'm sure the science really dodged a bullet with this But it's it gets people talking about it which The majority of science is funded by public money So the more the public know about it and the more the public want to learn more about it The more money there will be for research funded in the future um We don't necessarily You know, there's at least in the states. There's also a big push to Include science in the policy and in the politics involved But that also comes from the public at a certain level, you know if the people are going to vote for folks who put science into politics then you're going to elect people who put science into politics so Body McBoatface in addition to being a name that makes me smile every time I say it Is a way to get people to at least say, huh, that's an unusual name Oh, yeah, why you know, is this real should I do some more research on this or Why did these scientists name a boat body McBoatface for professional purposes? and then in my knowledge the only way someone can come to an explanation for that is They were tricked into it Or they have a sense of humor about it and it's probably in this like it's a combination of both because yeah I don't I can't imagine what boss said. Yes, you can let the internet name this yeah plus million dollar Boat but in retrospect, it was a great idea that person should get a promotion. Oh, yeah So that could have gone either way that was 50/50 promotion versus your fire. Yeah, but now promotion. Yep now promotion So that now you get this public opinion that might shift more towards like scientists are kind of funny Yeah, which is certainly in desperate need because If there's one thing people didn't need scientists to be any more of it's serious and dry and boring So, I mean, that's why we like folks like Andrew David Thaler and Craig McLean and their their blogs and everything because It's good science. Yes. It's very good science. It's intelligent. It's very well written, but it's funny too and it's light and if you 95% of the folks you meet in science even though they might have weird senses of humor They have a sense of humor because they're just normal people So I think this will go a long way towards doing that plus all the reasons that you said like maybe it's not Great to name it after a person, especially not a politician You know, it should be forward thinking it should capture the true nature of being on a boat which is exploration and Research in this instance and Bodhi McBoatface is kind of A name that expresses like hey, we're gonna go out and we're gonna have fun and we're gonna see what happens And a lot of times that's what you do on a boat So I I think it's great. I think it's fantastic and then it sounds like it's they're going to name it that Hopefully they actually follow through. Yeah, it seems like that now the only thing we have to figure out is how we can get on that boat and do some research that we can actually put a paper together and put acknowledgments as Bodhi McBoatface or or do we need to change speak up for blue to like Ocean talks with two men or Something Something similar Ocean talks with two men. I like that. Yeah. Hey anything. They'll make us laugh. I think I think that'll be good Maybe we should change it for this show But yeah, no man like I mean, it's fun Like you said it's fun. It's light. It gets people interested and I think Andrew kind of hit the the nail in the head Just it's perfect. It gets people involved. It gets people who aren't necessarily scientists involved, you know, and I think It it it piques everybody's curiosity and what what we're looking for. So I think that's I think that's awesome Okay, so the next Uh The next next story is something of that's really cool Uh, and did you want to take care of this one? Sure Uh, this story focuses on what are called chitons. They're invertebrate. I think they're mollusks They are mollus. Yeah, okay. They're they're mollus. Do you see them a lot? At least in the states in the north pacific. Um, they're they're kind of intertidal shallow Species, um, they have a hard outer shell made of aragonite Um, and similar to a lot of other gastropods. They they pretty much are sessile. They stay attached to rocks Substrate And they use these really long teeth to sort of drill in certain areas and feed But the bottom line is they don't look like much. I mean they have a really cool outer shell But they're they're not the most charismatic of species um New research on them shows that they are Stranger than you'd think because on their outer shell, it's not just a single layer of hard aragonite Uh, that's used for protection. They also mix in there a few different functional eyes Essentially, so these are lenses that are mixed in with the aragonite shell that can detect it seemed Uh, like the study said, it can detect very basic, uh, either movement or changes in light So they're not very advanced eyes, uh, but they do the job to protect them from predators And the fascinating thing is that these eyes aren't made of protein Like the majority of eyes in the animal kingdom including our eyes They're made from the same material they're made from aragonite, which means that they can be placed on a shell without Leaving these eyes exposed to predation So the the article that we're looking at goes on to say, you know, this could potentially inspire uh similar sort of Structures to create visual receptors or something like that on Body armor or on some other sort of non protein structure 3d printers could use them So it you know, it's it's another sort of biomechanical inspiration for Human-made structures, but in my mind, it's just seems very fascinating because to the best my knowledge There's no other sort of organism that I know of that has an eye or some similar visual receptor That's made of a material that's so stiff and that's so small and Usually you think of eyes as obviously a very sensitive part of the body So if you can negate that trade-off where you don't have to make the decision between Protection and vision or sight Then you really open up a whole lot of opportunities and it would be interesting to see now that researchers know That these eyes are made of aragonite What other sorts of organisms that they might not have previously looked into may have similar sort of visual structures that aren't made of protein Yeah, I mean, I'm as you're talking as you're talking i'm staring at this chitin who which is a very colorful Species right then when i'm staring at Um, it's it's it's got around the the edges. It's got this red Uh deep red with a light red with like maybe even some pink in it It's got a deep red circle around in that are these bands of yellow All around it will put this picture up and on the uh as the feature image And then in the middle of that there are these plates just kind of as you said that are very rigid And it looks like you can't crack it like this is this thing is protected. They're very stiff. Yeah Yeah, and it almost it looks like it's for this species anyway, it looks like there's like teeth on the top But they're not but they look like the teeth probably sharp at the tip Um, but uh, it's it's very interesting and like you said you find them on rocks and stuff and they're as a mollus They're probably I would say they're in between like a snail and a muscle Would you agree for like just sort of what like if you were to describe it? Oh the Kind of between a snail and a muscle It's it's hard to describe imagine it was a snail, but instead of a large round shell You flattened it out and made it an oval so it has some sort of incline, but not much right Yeah, so it's just um, it's bizarre It's it's really cool But the fact that it has like you look at this thing and it looks like a disc and the fact that now I know it has eyes And you just got like where you know you're looking for it. You're like where are the eyes? I want to see these eyes and it's probably very primitive like you said they probably can't see very well But it does protect them from predators It allows them to really stick on when they want to stick on if there's if somebody's trying to get And now the predator's trying to get at them and I think it's just a very interesting looking species and this discovery is kind of a cool thing because You know Some mollus do have eyes But not the not the like the Cecil ones You know, you don't usually see them having eyes and you know, is this something in an evolutionary Sort of process that how mollus got eyes. I don't know like what's the next step after this Um, but it's it's kind of interesting because they're not they're sessile and they can still see and I just think that's uh That's an amazing feature for an animal. I don't only have that much else to say but I just think it's this is one of those Stories where it's like this is just a cool Species and the fact that now it has eyes and it's even like protected the eyes are protected Right considering us we're you know, we have our eyelids to protect it But by any means they're not rigid and if somebody tries to like poke our eye even if it your eyes closed It's gonna hurt. You know as I almost did it to myself Uh, you know, it's it's just one of those things where you just kind of like oh wow Like this is this is kind of a cool feature for an animal who's sessile and and wants to to You know, I guess check out what's happening forever itself, right? I just think it's uh, it's fantastic and the colorings are just beautiful Um, you never would have think and I bet you as divers we kind of we I know there's people who who will actually um You know try and take these off off rocks and stuff You know, but a lot of divers. I bet you we just pass over them We probably don't even see them because a lot of them I bet you're a camouflage They're really tough to take off rocks to like even even if you were to try they hunker down so well to them That uh, we we now is up in friday arbor for our invertebrate class that I took up there Uh, we did some collecting for kiteons up there right the trick is you either got to Goop them off the rock on your first try because once they feel something touched them They're gonna get down and you really need like a paint scraper or something else to yeah Yeah, you guys have to be really thin to get underneath there. They're really interesting low critters Yeah, yeah, I think it's cool. I I I I like having this on the show because we're both invertebrate people And it's nice to get some invertebrates, especially something when you when you discover something new about an invertebrate I think it's kind of a an interesting aspect. So um, so yeah, I mean That's just a cool thing that we have about about kiteons and about invertebrate another another mollusk So I think that's uh, that's kind of cool. Um, okay. So the last story is about whale sharks And I like this story in a certain way Because it kind of has a bit of mystery to it. However, it could be very disappointing Um, I'm trying to refer I want to refresh this the story because the the the website kind of went off on me But I kept getting ads on it. So I don't really want to show it But so can you just describe this story for the people and then The this comes from a study that was published on march 23rd and the royal society of open science um, and basically the study was looking at How accurate are size estimates of whale sharks because when you do whale shark monitoring uh pretty much the majority of Estimates of maturity or immaturity and population composition are made from length So you estimate about how long a whale shark is and based on studies that say Whale sharks reach maturity typically at this length Then you can say this population is mostly juveniles or this population is a good mix of adults in juveniles um So The this study specifically looked at um ningalo ningalo reef in australia Uh, what they found was that people tend to underestimate um Actual length. So when you look at a shark a whale shark you tend to think it's smaller than actually is But then what they did was they took this new approach to measuring the length of whale sharks and compared it to uh Samples of lengths from whale sharks worldwide between 1995 and 2013 so they applied this method to a larger data set and they found that recently um Pretty much after 2006 most of the sightings were of juvenile's based on the length of the whale shark And so in some areas, uh like ningalo reef It wasn't a surprise they knew that there was evidence suggesting that this area is mostly juvenile where whale sharks But it kind of begs the question what's happening to all the adults Yeah, um, and you know the the two options For this are first off. This is sort of the first study that hinted at this Right while there might have been a lot of anecdotal folks from researchers and observers saying we're not seeing a lot of adults There probably need to be a sort of more rigorous Uh observation initiative to figure out if adults are actually being spotted less frequently But if they are could be either adults are inhabiting areas that we're not able to monitor as well So, you know, maybe they dive in deeper waters when they're adults. Maybe they go to more remote areas or Maybe we've overfished them or maybe they've just died off because whale sharks are long lived species A lot of the damage that we might have done in previous generations might just be catching up to us now. Yeah Yeah, I mean it definitely could definitely be that which would be sad And i'm sure it's I think it's a little bit of column A a little bit of column B I think these species my hypothesis would be that and it kind of indicates it a little bit in the article Um from what I remember reading about it It it says okay You know, you have a species that's so big that it can travel thousands of kilometers You know hundreds of thousands of kilometers in in you know a few months Just like a whale right because they're about 60 feet 65 feet average so It could be that the adults hang out in the in the in ocean And then maybe ningaloo reef is a good spot for juvenile that could be the same population now So so you're basically saying like, you know how humpback whales will summer in the arctic and winter in in very high your story, right? And that's their big spawning ground. That's where they they reproduce is in hawaii uh, the same thing could be for ningaloo reef or You know somewhere in the indian ocean, you know by india pakistan trilanka those areas Uh, and then so that that could be one of the explanations We just don't know enough about these species that we don't know their migration path I mean think about it. It wasn't until about 20 years ago that we knew that sea turtles can travel from California beaches all the way to japan and back You know in less than a year. We had no idea that could happen until we started tracking them So with with tracking increasing in um in whale sharks We might know a little bit more about them now one thing that was interesting and again going back to wednesday's episode uh about citizen science is that um michael bayer who actually inspired me To you know you and me to to research this uh, you know about citizen science and talk about it Um, he's in charge of one of the whale shark projects And one thing that they're doing through citizen science is they're taking pictures of some of these whales underwater And or yeah of these whale sharks are sharks underwater And they're noticing that there is each individual whale shark has a specific pattern of dots on its head And by identifying those individual patterns, they can actually put it through software There's actually software created so that people can recognize when an individual is spotted more than once This could be important for looking at you know, uh, you know looking at juvenile sharks in ningaloo reef and then adult sharks in in the in ocean Over time if you put in a citizen science project over time You might be able to figure out that some of those individuals they grow up and they go to see the in the in oceanist Times, right and I think that's probably the best way to do it because so many people dive with With whale sharks. That's a big ecotourism thing. I mean, they're on my bucket list And I think um, they're probably worth more alive than they are than they are dead However, on the other the column b part that I mentioned earlier is the fact that they're still hunted You know and that's a big thing I believe it was Those are man arrays, but there was a protected area for man arrays and they were worried about man arrays being hunted as Um, they found that one of the protect when I think we talked about this in ocean in ocean talk Yeah, they would travel through an unprotected area to get to the Which is a big hunting ground. They got to get there to get to the spawning area, right? and um You know that was a big problem. I'm sure the same problem with whale sharks You know, you've got a big species is very difficult to protect because it travels so much Um, you got to figure out where it stops where it frequently stops for its most important areas whether it be spawning whether it be Nursing whether it be feeding areas. It's just like whales. You got to figure out where they go And turtles as well and then protect those areas Once you protect those areas, you're good. Um, well, you're better off. Anyway Um, but I think what happens is you see a lot of people. I've seen a lot of pictures from Uh from the that the like southeast Asia or south Asia I guess it's south south Asia where india pakistan tree lichen Where they actually hunt whales, you know, you actually find them cut up and and things like that So, you know, you got to you got to look at that and say okay Well, maybe you know, these things are long lived It takes a really long time for them to reach sexual maturity if you keep You know hunting a lot of them Then they will go down and then you'll only see juveniles and they'll take a while before they reach adulthood Right. And then once they reach adulthood people are going to try and hunt them again So we got to be very careful And I think this is one of those cases where you need more research to figure out where they are Where they go you need to figure out what their life cycle is and where their life cycles the life cycle stages Are and then you need to protect the hell out of those stages Right to make sure that you maintain that reef now ningle the reef it could just be they go north or they go south Right, right, you know, and you know may not be the end in ocean. I don't know but that's just my that would be my First guess would be that's where they would go because you know, that's a big that's a big hot spot for them as well So, um, it's it's very it's very similar to the population of great white sharks in New Zealand and south africa Apparently there's a bit of a connection. There's a bit of a migration route that connects those two populations You know, so that makes sense, right? Those are 18 footers. Yeah travel from New Zealand to south africa and back There would be no reason to think that these whale sharks would would travel The same distance if not further. Well, and I I think there was a study That came out maybe a couple years ago that looked at as best they could the worldwide Genetic distribution of whale sharks like how many genetically distinct groups there actually were Yep, and I vaguely remember that they only thought there were two populations globally And I don't remember the exact groupings of them But if there's only two genetically distinct populations, that means you've got a lot of migration going on You know, but that it might very well be seasonal You also have to factor in depth But you know, it's it's a good example of how much Greater mon because greater monitoring never sounds like a really fantastic research project But it's so important for especially mammals like whale sharks that are so highly migratory But are also very threatened or at least very susceptible to or um And that plays such a huge role in the ecosystem and the economy because that's like you said It's it's on everyone's bucket list to see a whale shark If I can't think of many other marine animals that are Probably better for ecotourism groups than whale sharks So they're really important and if we don't know anything about them, then we can't take any measures to protect them or manage them No, I completely agree. I completely agree and I and whale sharks are just one of those things that are you know, very cool animals And it's uh, I think it's I think you have a good opportunity to Establish a good citizen science project all over the world. Oh, yeah, right because there's there's so highly sought after for diving with them Well, and if you can identify individuals like you said, yeah, that's that's perfect for Scientists Yeah, like so far according to that project so far They've been actually not only using it for whale sharks. They've been using it for seven gill sharks as well Right and they've identified they've been able to identify 42 individuals in the San Diego area Just in the San Diego area and that is interesting to me So yeah, so you know, there's there's the ability to do this and they do it with with large marine mammals like whales You know, they do it using identification of you know based on the dorsal fin or some kind of specific features With the amount of dots that whale sharks have the fact that they're unique You know in their pattern is very interesting as well and it allows us to identify Individuals to see how they're doing the fact that they're long lived you can actually track These whale sharks for quite a long time, you know, and almost do like a bit of an ocean arch thing But for citizen scientists, right? It's like find this individual, you know, the where you find this I think that you know, it would be kind of cool Okay, brainstorming here Set up a project like this and you say okay There's an individual we called Sharky McChark face who knows right and and or we call him pimples or whatever because he's got a lot of dots and He you know, you say okay. We've seen him three times in this area The next person to see him and log him and take a photograph You know, we'll be we'll get a certain amount of points or we'll get something You know what I mean? Like they're incentivized we'll get a t-shirt or something like that Because now you got divers who are like looking for these individuals You know what I mean? The fact like it'd be kind of cool if you could like if research has actually tagged them, but without tagging them you can just say hey, you know Here's the science project here citizens are actually tracking pimples And we can find them wherever we want and here It's a picture of them because these are all based on the pictures that we've received You know, you can put it up on an app just like ocean arch didn't put a whole profile on it the behavior the size, you know the estimated size the estimated weight all that kind of stuff and Just and just track them, you know and track them using citizen science. I think that would be an amazing kind of thing Yeah, I think that's a great idea. I mean um Yeah, you might run into some issues with like really middle of nowhere waters But maybe you get some adrenaline junkies who want to go out and find pimples and and we'll do it Yeah, or it doesn't happen for like three months. Yeah, and then the price goes up. Yeah Yeah, absolutely. And I guess the only thing you worry about is people getting a little too aggressive Yeah, but you know if they just take video and and pictures and then they send it in and when they say, I think this is it And then you know, we validate it using that software. You're like, yeah, you're right This is this is pimples and then boom You know, you've got them you've got them tracked and you can follow them on a map and All that kind of stuff on google earth or whatever you want to use, right? I like it Yeah, it'd be kind of fun. We'll talk to michael about that. So But uh, but yeah, anyway, that's do you have any last last uh Comments on on this story Uh, no, not on this story. We need more boating McBoatface though. Yes, we do Yes, we do. That's why I thought pimples pimples was good. I was thinking big shark. No whale But I think i've already learned that i'm just awful and coming up with no, I love it I love a big shark. No whale. I love it. I love it. Maybe he's like more aggressive and less friendly So you call him big shark and more whale. Yeah, you know, yeah, I like that I like that a lot or just you call one of them tiny tiny. Yeah, that's that's that's kind of like the I'm not very good at these names either, but that's kind of like the the given That's the ironic one where it's like yeah, you long. Yeah, he's just really big and he's like, yeah, it's tiny You know, I think that'd be kind of fun Um if one has no to pay we can call him trump But we have more it's it's it's too serious down here. It's not up here though. We're we're entertained We're entertained. No, we're glad That's okay. We have a we have a prime minister who has Apparently really good core strength. I'm not sure if you've seen a video of it, but he's like He's like on a table doing some kind of yoga pose and his feet are in the air And he's just leaning on his hand on his hands and his his heads off the off the desk And he's actually going up like this and you're just kind of like Wow That's pretty cool, but okay, you know, and people love it people are loving a man. They love it Core strength is important. Core strength is important. It's especially if you're going up against trump. You're going to need it Core strength is good for building walls Playing out here zoned in into talking about the ocean and now i'm back to reality of the political system Sorry, sorry to get rid of your distraction. What do you make both face? It's all you Boating with both face and pimples and tiny and all those things that are that are that are fun about about ocean science But um, no, thanks a lot for tuning in guys. Uh, we didn't get anybody to tune in to come in on blab Come on join us. We uh Definitely have you come on and you can make comments and and and You know contribute to the discussion and we'll have some fun But uh, we'll do it every wednesday at nine at p.m. Eastern So come on in and over and and uh and join us but um until then Thanks for joining us. Nathan. Thank you very much for co-hosting us again Appreciate it and uh, we'll chat with you later stay on and i'll just pause the recording All right, everybody. Thank you very much for listening. I really appreciate it That is all for us this week, um, what did you think about the proposal of a citizen science project with some incentives of trying to find? Um a specific individual Uh, I think that's kind of interesting thing. Do you think it's a good idea bad idea? Let me know in the in the show notes, you know, it could be good for the animal could be bad for the animal a little bit people Maybe being too aggressive. I don't know Um, but let me know in the comments on the show notes speak up for blue.com forward slash session 40 and you can get that there's a link in the show notes like on the pot on your podcasting app So you can always look for it there. Um, if not, just go speak up for blue.com forward slash blog And you'll be able to see all the podcasts there and just pick 100 session 140 Um, so there's lots of ways to get in contact with us. Uh, you can also speak you can also reach out to us at speak up for blue on twitter Uh, that's my handle at speak up for blue on twitter and you can just you know hit us up. Say hello Say what's up. Give us your opinions on the show. Let us know what you think um, and i'm always willing to interact. So, uh, that is uh, that'll be a lot of fun We're coming out with an instagram account. I'm trying to figure something out on instagram The last update for instagram. I have my own account my personal account I don't have a speak up for blue account, which i'm trying to put together Uh, so we'll be on we'll be on instagram shortly Hopefully they'll come up with an update where it allows me to switch accounts on my phone As you know instagram is can only be updated through mobile So i'm gonna be trying to do that. So keep an eye out for that I'll let you know in the podcast and you can see all of our updates and all of our workings and whatnot So anyway, thank you very much for listening. You've been listening to speak up for blue podcast I am your host angel luen happy friday happy weekend and happy conservation [Music]
