In Bed With Alexa

Sex-Positive Cartoons, MFM Fantasies, and Getting Through Dry Spells (ft. Jessica Stahl)

Kicking off Season 3! Sexologist Alexa Andre (@sexwithalexa) is joined by Jessica Stahl (@vanillacooldance), a sex-positive cartoonist and creative director. We dive into Jessica's mfm fantasy, her experience growing up in an open household, and how her mom gifting her her first vibrator shaped her advocacy for pleasure. Jessica shares her journey from anger at men to a place of curiosity, her experiences with toys and partners, overcoming dry spells, and the culture shocks she’s faced since moving to Amsterdam. Plus, we get into the highs and lows of sex parties!

Duration:: 52m
Broadcast on:: 15 Aug 2024
Audio Format:: mp3

(upbeat music) - Jess? - Hello. - Hi. - Are you ready to get in bed with me? - I'm happily already in bed with you. - Are you so excited that we could finally do this? - I know we've known each other so long digitally. - It's been long and in our first call up was like last year, right? It's long overdue. - And now we're in Barcelona. - Yes. - So, well, hi everyone. I have Jessica Stahl, the owner, founder, CEO of a military dance. She's a cartoonist and draws six positive cartoons. And you've probably seen them all over. - Yes, especially 'cause we've teamed up so much for Masturbation May and a lot of times. - Yeah, and how to suck dick, which did really well. - Always. - What else would you say you are? I didn't even ask on you at all. - Oh, no, that's fine. So, I'm a creative director as well, and cartoonist and the creator of Vanilla Quotence, which is, yeah, a cartoon all about sexuality relationships and the body, basically anything taboo or something that they're surrounding shame. I try to create a safe space for shameless conversation. - Yeah, I think we talk a lot. Like, we overlap so much more than what we talk about. - Yeah, yeah, absolutely. - Okay, so let's start with your upbringing. - Yes. - You grew up in the States. - I did. - So, what was that like? - I grew up in a very open household. So, very sex positive household. But of course, I also grew up in the '90s and the representation of women was mostly objectified. And yeah, so I think I had a very skewed sense of what sexuality was and a lot of it centered around the man and a lot of it shamed women and yeah, just made women into objects. - Yeah, so, but my family was super sex positive in what way? - And my mom got me my very first vibrator. - How old were you? - I was not like that young. I was, I think, 17 or, yeah, so. - Good age. - She found out I was having sex and then she told me that you can't always rely on your partner to get the job done. So she gave me money for her vibrator. - Wow. - Yeah. - Did you, were you like, okay, mom? Or were you like, oh my God, mom, don't. - I think I loved it. I think I was old enough. Like where the, yeah, maybe if she'd done it a few years late earlier, I would have been so embarrassed. But I thought, oh, what a badass. This is very cool. Yeah. - That is so badass. - Wow. So you bought it and did you, were you having orgases with your partner? - Before the vibrator. - Oh my God, my first partner. It's so funny 'cause I'm like, I can't remember. I don't think that was the point. Like I don't think that was the purpose. I'm sure I did, if that makes sense. Like I can't really remember yes or no, but I'm sure the relationship wasn't centered around female pleasure. - What do you mean, you're sure you did orgasm? - I think so. I think we did have oral sex. I think he did go down on me, but I can't remember, I mean, it was so long ago. - I definitely did not come with your first partner. Or like I barely come. - I mean, definitely not during sex. Like definitely not during intercourse. - Right. - But he would like take care of you in different ways. - I think so, but it was never. - Let's assume so. - Let's assume so. Let's say, let's give him the benefit of the doubt. - Okay, and then you started incorporating the toy with him. Or did you just use it on your own? - No, I think back then it was really like, toys were for you a lot. - A lot of them. - Yeah, yeah. - Okay. - Would you remember the first time you used the toy with someone or have you? - Yes, I love using toys with somebody. Let's think the very first time. It probably would have been another X of mine. And I think what we did was we went, yeah, we went to the sex store together, which for those who haven't done it is a very hot experience to do it. - It's just so fun. - It's so fun. And this was still like over 10 years ago, or maybe 10 years ago. So the options were also different, but we got this thing where it was a vibrating thing that you put on your finger. - Yes. - And it was also kind of battery operated. I remember I had an on/off switch that you hooked here. And it was just funny 'cause like he couldn't feel anything. Like he had no idea if he was like on the right spot 'cause it's this thing that's vibrating on here. So we tried, but I wouldn't say it was like, I think the experience of shopping for it was more exciting than using it. But I've since had really nice, I love using toys with a partner. I think you do too, or do you adopt it? - No, yeah, I'm like, I mean, I just always have them. - Yeah. - You know, the options. - I mean, choose your weapon. - Yeah, choose your weapon. - I mean, I don't always, I'll switch it up. - Yes, yes. - But like they are an option, and they're available at all times. - Yeah, I love it as a bonus, a little add-on. - Yeah, yeah. Whether they are charged or not, it's-- - Oh my God. - They are always dead. - Okay, so you have had like, you cared about your pleasure from early on, basically. - I cared about my pleasure, but I didn't know that I should care about it within the context of a relationship or within two people. I think I always thought of pleasure as something I did for myself, and then when you're having sex with somebody, then it's really about their orgasm. And it wasn't until later that I realized, wait, my pleasure is valid in each of these relationships. Yeah. - So how did you realize that and how long ago, did you start centering your pleasure? - I do remember I dated somebody, I think it's interesting because in college, I definitely had experiences where my pleasure was centered, but I don't think I knew that that was an important thing. I thought, oh, with this person, they like to do this, that's really nice. It wasn't something that I then copy pasted onto, like as an expectation for the next thing. - It was up to the other person. - Yeah, it was always up to the person. So I do remember having a partner in college who loved to go down on me, and obviously, I loved that. But then I've had partners in between that it wasn't, yeah, so important. I had a one experience that really, I think it was the moment that changed the way I think about it. And I was with a guy, he was a bit old, or he was like 12 years older than me, or 13, I don't know, something like that. Not that it really matters, but we were, yeah, he had just gone down on me and he didn't stop. Like I had just had an orgasm and he kept going. And I said to him, oh, I came already. And he goes, oh, no, I know. And then he just kept going. And then I was like, wait a minute. There's people out here that like it so much or like me enjoying it so much that they keep going. And then that's changed it for me. Then I'm like, okay, why would I ever be with somebody who wasn't into that? - Yeah, yeah. - Did you come again? - Yeah, which is always like a heart of more like deeper, yeah. - For me as well. Okay, so how did you make the switch? 'Cause what if you find someone that, like how did you stop making it up to them? - What did it start being up to you? And what do you do if someone's like not as interested in your relationship? What do you do to still advocate for your pleasure? - Such a good question. So in the beginning, I was angry. I think I had the realization that, wait a minute, my pleasure is valid. What the fuck have I been doing? And so in the first year or two, I was also drawing at the time, like starting my account. I-- - How long has my middle school dance existed? - Around seven years, I think. So it was also when I started kind of learning more about my sexual empowerment. And I remember being really angry. So if a guy didn't show any interest, I would be like attacking them. - Sounds like me. - So I'd be like, "Sorry, are you not planning to go down on me?" Or, "Oh, I didn't have an orgasm." And just like let it sit in silence. - Yeah, that is badass. It is badass, but I think where I've now gotten to, I feel like it is the evolution with anything. I think anger is a stage where you feel like you didn't get something for so long, and then you go this way, and then you kind of come back. So what I have since realized is there are also a lot of partners that maybe they're insecure, maybe they don't have that much experience going down on somebody, maybe their ex-girlfriend really hated it, and so now they don't really, or like always push them away, so now they don't really try. Maybe they grew up with the same porn that we grew up with and don't know better. So I try to then approach it more with curiosity. - I mean, obviously if you get angry and you attack them-- - Yeah, that's not gonna help. - And they'll receive it a lot better if you're like, "Hey, how about we do this?" - I will, it will be so hard if you use this to weigh on me. - I wasn't doing that for a long time. - I think the anger is valid 'cause we're taught that our pleasure is fucking indifferent. - Yeah. - It doesn't matter. So I understand, but other people will always receive your approaches better if you come from places-- - Yeah, how might we? - Right, like I would love like eye statements. Like you're a dick 'cause you don't care about my feet. It'd be like, "Hey, it'll be so fun." Oh, don't you think it'd be so fun if we use this wearable toy to the movies today and like, you know, - Or why don't we have a knight that's no penetration and all about teasing each other? - Right, yeah. - Yeah, if you send each other veals or our posts or whatever, I mean, those bring better results. - Totally. - But like the anger is also, I think it is valid 'cause like be angry and advocate for yourself as well. - Yeah, and I mean, obviously if after being open and welcoming and approaching it from the right way and they still don't care, then I think they're just a fucking asshole. - Goodbye. - Yeah. - Bye. - Okay, and you are queer. - I'm not queer. - You're not queer, okay. - No, like I thought you once said that you, what are your fantasies was to be approached by a woman at a bar or flirted with or am I wrong as to someone else who? - I think that may be somebody else, but I do like flirting with women and I do like kissing. So I mean, we're on the queer spectrum, am I? - That's how I started. - Yes, but I have gone out with, like I've tried going on a date with women and for me, I wasn't interested in taking it further than that. So I find women very attractive and I do like the chemistry and the dynamic that you can have and also with kissing. I also enjoy kissing women and men and people of all genders, but I think the kind of relationship or what I'm looking for. And also sexually, I, for instance, if my fantasy for a threesome would be with two men. - Okay. - It's the fantasy I have. 'Cause sometimes dating and sex with one gender is different. Like, 'cause for me, it's also different to fuck women than to go on dates with them. I'll do both, but it's completely different. So I would understand why someone would like to have sex with a gender and not date them. - Yeah, yeah. - So, yeah, I would leave you there. - It was funny 'cause I was telling my friend who is queer herself. I said, oh, I wonder what it would have been like if I grew up in the time with, you know, all the representation now in the TV shows and with people kind of experimenting more. And she just looks at me and she goes, nah, I think you'd still have enough to say. And then I went on these a few dates and I was like, nope, I think she's right. But nice to try. - Well, yeah, you gave it a shot. - Yeah, exactly. - That's more than most people will do. - Yeah, okay. And okay, so fantasies involve threesome with two men. - Yes, new fantasy. - You haven't done it. - No, it almost happened once. I didn't even know it was a fantasy until it almost happened. And then I'm, and now it's like, I have a hyper fixation on achieving this fantasy. - Would you rather they be straight or bi, like they play with each other or not really, or you're like the main thing? - I think I should definitely be the main thing, but they can, I don't have a preference whether they're bi or straight. - Mm-hmm. - I think it would be nice if they were not like sitting on separate sides of the room. - Right. - And if they were engaging with each other, I would be into that too. - I think it's hot. - Yeah, I think it would be really hot. - The main way with do by men is one of the most things. - Yeah, yeah. - So I definitely, if there's any bi or straight men listening. - I can literally set that up for you. - Amazing. Where do I have to go? - It's just come from New York. - I'll be there. - Yeah. (laughing) We'll make it happen. (laughing) - Yeah, we're in Europe, so it's none. I mean, we can probably... - I'm sure we could set anything up. - But we only have tonight, so it's not that easy. - Yeah. - Okay. - One night only. - Well, you never know, maybe tonight. Maybe with some prefer... Okay, so we're celebrating Erica Lust's 20th anniversary. And I think we don't know anything about this event, but I think there will be performers there. And one of my fantasies has been to fuck, like one or more performers. So, well, I think Alexa, that your fantasy is achievable this evening. I did just give my period and I'm in pain. So let's see, maybe we can fool around. - I just think I would feel so special if they want to fuck just to fuck, even though it's their job. I'd be like, "I'm dying to fuck you." I'd be like, "I understand. "I'm gonna keep an eye out for each night." - Yeah, we'll see. - Okay, so, your account is seven years old. - Mm-hmm. - And it has the content changed. From when you first started to what you're posting right now, the message has it changed. Have you changed with it? - Yeah, definitely. So I think the cartoon had all those elements that I was also talking about with the anger. And so if you look back at my older work, well, first of all, it started as my diary in doodles. So it was about kind of everything, not just relationships and sexuality. And so I would draw about awkward work situations as well and just kind of general things in life. And I think along the way, I just started learning more about my own dating styles and relationship psychology and getting more interested in that and also more interested in sexuality. And so it's kind of naturally progressed. And I've definitely changed. There was like a few years in the middle part where my character, Vanilla Quotience, was like showing up more empowered than I was. And I was going into this kind of like, who the fuck am I? Like, am I not my character? I'm so confused. Like I'm leaving a date and crying, but Vanilla Quotience wouldn't cry. So I was having this like dissonance about it. And I think I've since worked through that to realize like, okay, she's, we're all multifaceted people. She's like one part. - She's like your alter ego. - Yeah, and she's like one part of all of us that we all have, but there's also other parts of us that we have to. - I mean, I don't always take my own advice. - Yeah, exactly. - It's just impossible to come in, so. - Yeah, and, but I, it started with a lot of self-deprecating humor, which I also love. It started with a lot of kind of man-hating energy, but with like a funny twist. It wasn't like super negative and a lot of men also laughed at it. But I think now it comes from a more understanding and curious place. - Yeah. Okay, and while you changed your account change or has also having your account change you in some way? - Oh, definitely both. - Okay. - I mean, how has the account changed you? - How has the account changed me? I think just like the thousands of women that comment and share their stories has made me feel so much less alone going through different phases of my life. So being able to build that community and meet people through it, I mean, just even meeting you is amazing. It's become my whole world, like the sexual space that I didn't know that I existed. So meeting other creators and just getting to know the people that are in my community is incredible. So that's definitely changed me. I think how, what was the other version? How I changed the... - Well, I think as you've changed your content change. - Yeah, yeah. Okay. What about, 'cause you said you came from an open family, but what do they think about when you look cool dance? - Oh, they're like number one fans. - Oh, I like that. Granny Annie is a big fan. - Love. - So she, I think one time she told me that she was discussing the pullout method with her coffee group because of one of my cartoons. - Yeah. - So it's so funny. - Oh my gosh. - She's incredible. She also said, one Thanksgiving, she said, "Oh, you may know about masturbation, "but we've known about the One Finger Express "for quite some time, my ourselves." - What's the One Finger Express? - Like the Two Finger Express. It was like masturbating. - Huh? - Two Finger Express. I love that my grandma's also like a big fan of my work. - Oh, that's so special. - I love you, grandma. - Yeah. - I mean, sometimes now I will be, I think the cartoon has a layer of, I think same with like maybe you putting your written workout, has a bit of a layer of separateness in a way. So I have been doing more like speaking in stage time and sometimes I'll be like, "Okay, maybe dad doesn't need to watch it." You know? - Right. Yeah. Sometimes I'm like, I do share a lot. Like some of it might be considered TMI, even though for me now. - Totally. - Yeah. But I'm like, I'm the same. Parents, you watch all my fucking stories and my reels and like, I appreciate it, but maybe you shouldn't. - Really? (laughing) - Like, no, but I, it's fine. - But nice, I mean, it's also really lucky - I'd rather have that than the opposite, so it's fine. - Okay, what about your relationships? Like, besides your pleasure, for example, what were you allowing before? Like, before and after when the cool things? - I think that, well, probably the thing that kind of catapulted my interest into relationship psychology was reading the book attached. So learning about attachment styles, and it was just like a huge light bulb went off in my mind. Less on the, okay, I really need to watch out for these types and more on how I'm showing up and what is actually normal. Like, it's normal to vocalize disappointment. It's normal to communicate your needs. It's normal to ask for something within a relationship. These are things that I never realized inside. I was always making myself so small in different relationships and not showing up, yeah, as my amazing self. And so that's something that has definitely changed. So now, you know, I'm very aware of how am I showing up? Am I activated in, is it because of something that they're doing or is it because I'm processing something that has nothing to do with them? So I think having that awareness and then in terms of what I don't tolerate anymore, I think that was the question is the second, I noticed that there's a misalignment with expectations or with like what we want for the future. Instead of abandoning myself by staying in that situation, I do leave it, which is so hard, but so important if you want to find what is ultimately right for you. - It's so hard. - So fucking hard. And it's like, yeah, it's like the most painful thing you can do to walk away from somebody that you wanted a future with. - And specifically someone who's still an awesome person, but you're just not compatible with it. - Exactly, yeah. - So I guess you've also had an experience. - Oh yeah, no, it's bad. - Yeah, yeah. - Yeah, I recently had to end something 'cause it just wasn't for me, even though it's crazy about this person, I was like, this is so fucking, like it was so shitty. - It was heartbreaking. Yeah, it was like, fuck this shit. But you know, it's what's best for me at the end of it, all of us, so this is your reminder too, that it's okay to leave an awesome person if they're not for you. - Yeah, and it's okay to feel really shitty about it. - Yes, grief and time, just give it time. - Okay, so it sounds like you can be more authentic now. Like you're allowing yourself to be yourself when you're with other people instead of just letting them, you know, decide everything and like, you just taking it or not taking it. - Yeah, I think that's actually really interesting 'cause I didn't think about that until you had mentioned it. But I think you're right, both in the bedroom and outside the bedroom, being a bit more of the chooser or the vocalizing what I'd like. - Yeah, it's okay to have needs. - Yeah, shocker. - Yeah, you're fine. - Okay, and now, what era are you in? - Okay, let's see. I feel like last year at the beginning of the year is in my sexual exploration era. - So the beginning of 2023. - The beginning of 2023 was like sleep with everyone and explore my sexuality era. Go to all the sex parties, go to any time that it was like a, could I? It was a yes. - Okay, yes. - Yeah, then I was in a small relationship era, which is still nice 'cause it was sexually explorative as well. - In what way? - Like going to sex parties. - Together. - Yeah. - But you were monogamous or kind of monogamish or anything? - No, monogamous, yeah. - Okay, so you just like watch and then fuck each other. - Well, the sex party we went to was, it was my, it was, yeah. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, so. - Okay. - But it was, it was a funny story anyway. - Yeah, it's cool. - If you were free to share. - More to go, yeah. - I love sex party story. - Oh, yeah, I can share it, yeah. - This was in Amsterdam. - So I, yeah, this is an Amsterdam. It was my first one. - Did you get vetted or was it like open to the public? - You just walked into it. - Well, there we go, so yeah. - That makes the difference. - The first problem. - So I had heard of all these parties, I think like big little secrets or in Amsterdam, but the ones I had found were couples and single women only. And then I thought, that's rude. - Yeah, that's pretty fun. - Okay, turns out this point. - Yeah. - But my interpretation was like, that's not equal. - Yeah. - And then it was also men in suits and women in lingerie. And then I thought, okay, it's giving-- - It was one of the fancy ones. - Yeah, but also in my head, it was giving like, in college, I had office hose and CEOs parties and you know, where the girl was always dressed slutty and the guy was dressed. - The objects. - Yeah, the objects. - The objects. - So I was like, no, I don't wanna do that. I wanna go to one where everyone has to be creative and dress whatever. - Whatever. - So these are my two moral high grounds, which now have since gone away. - So anyone who gets tickets to this party, already a red flag, but I did love, I think they communicated really well about a consent and boundaries. And so I think they did a really great job of that. - Once you got there or like-- - They sent you an email or-- - So the emails and all their content online was about safety. - Okay. - So I looked amazing, I had a fire like leather, handmade leather-- - I saw that. - Yeah, I had that. - And then you'd dress for like a little bit. - Yeah, exactly. - And my partner also looked great. And it was really funny, 'cause I think even beforehand we were talking and I said, okay, like if there's a woman, 'cause he wasn't necessarily interested in men, if there's a woman and we're vibing with her, let's do it. So it was just funny, like we had a lot of, and this is why I can recommend to anyone to go to sex party because it does, if you do it right, you have really interesting conversations with your partner, like what are your goals, what do you hope to get out of it? Anyways, it was just funny 'cause we had all this and there was not gonna be a woman that we were hooking up with. So we go into the party and it's like 90% men, or 80% men, single women, 80% single men. So much latex, which I'm not necessarily into, like so much latex. So that was also not my thing. So everything that I thought I wanted, I was like, this was not it. But the party itself was really fun and in the Netherlands, nobody really talks to each other when you go out. So it was also nice 'cause it was just, even my partner was saying like, it feels like just a more social party 'cause people actually want to chat with you and get involved. - So you stayed even though it wasn't your thing? - Oh yeah, because like in the beginning, okay, maybe it was like 70, 30, I don't know. But in the downstairs area where it was just a party, we were like, okay, cool, this is fine. And then we went to the dark room and then it was like, so many men, it was so gross up there. - Is that where you played? - Well, that was where we like attempted to play. - Yeah. - But were other people playing or just men like-- - Yeah, there was like some people playing and then a lot of men watching. And then we like, we tried to make out for a little and then this guy who was not, no, no thank you, sir, asked to join. And then we were like, maybe we should go have our own sex party at home. - Yeah. - So I've since been to way better sex parties, like with very good vetting process where it's like, where it's felt like a rave. Everyone's dressed amazing, like in great leather outfits and it's super queer, like environment, queer-friendly. So that's more my vibe. So I've found better ones now, but it was just funny. Like, okay, everything I really had in my head, morally, I was like, nope, maybe I will go to the one with like men and suits and women in lingerie 'cause women in lingerie are hot. - True. - Yeah, no, the rules are there for a reason. But yeah, okay, so you went from slutty Jess to relationship Jess and then to break up Jess, which last me like, I can take a while to get out. And now, now she's back, now she's back in business. - Is this, since yesterday? - Since yesterday. (laughing) - Yes, I'm reawakened, I'm awakened. - Okay, so what woke you up, please? - No, I just had a little fling, but I needed, I needed, and nothing even happened. There was no sex, but-- - Because? (laughing) - 'Cause yeah, oh my God. - I have been a local audience who make condoms, also, make condoms, didn't have any. Yeah, so. - But good for you, good for you for, you know, putting up a boundary so that it'd be like, oh, just pull out-- - No, no, no, no, no, I'm not the pull out girl. - Yeah. - Nah, nah, not for me. But yeah, so now she's like a little bit, she's remembered how to get turned on, so that's good. - Yeah, so yeah, breakup was hard. - Yeah, the breakup was hard. - Took a little break, I took a break. - Took a break, and now you're ready, so what would you call this era? - Ooh, that started yesterday. - Oh God, what am I gonna call it? Oh yeah, like, hot vagina summer, I'm gonna try a summer era. I don't know, what is with this new season in my life? I think, what I noticed is from yesterday, now I'm just getting leading up to this, is what I'm looking for now is definitely being open to a partner, but also going into experiences without expectations, so trying to really get to know the person for who they are instead of trying to change them or get frustrated when they're not the person I want them to be, so coming at things with more openness and instead of projecting, and also being kinder to myself, I think in the past years, I've been in a little bit of a bad place with self-improvement, so I've wanted to be perfect and be the best as opposed to just saying, okay, I also have my shit and I'm gonna bring it and just kind of throwing it on the table, so that's kind of how I want to show up now. - Instead of like hiding it? - Yeah, instead of spending hours trying to work through things before bringing the other person in, like no, I'm just gonna try and put it out on the table to communicate a lot, and then yeah, with the new vagina open again for business, I want to go to more sex parties, I want to check out a Tantra festival, I wanted to do a Shabari, oh, I don't know, they have them also in Amsterdam. - Yeah, Amsterdam has it all, Amsterdam has it all, yeah. - Okay, but we'll do a little retreat to New York to fulfill some pain. - Yeah, I'm gonna be in the States in November. - Yeah, you said Thanksgiving. - Or like November, December-ish, maybe, yeah, so we'll see. - Yeah, maybe that threesome. - Let's do a talk about, not, 'cause if you don't have sex for a while, you know, 'cause we were talking about the whole morning. - By the way, I haven't communicated that yet. - Yeah, no, I'm just asking if you haven't, do you get really hornier or do you get used to it and you're like, you know, I'm kind of fine without sex. - Yeah, I feel like, and you guys will have to weigh in on your thoughts, we're curious, but I feel like I go through a massive withdrawal and then at a certain point, you're like, oh, okay, I'm fine. Like, you, I'm like, I'm doing great at work, I have great girlfriends, you're like energized again, but then it's not necessarily with that drive for sex until you have a moment where you get turned on and you're like, oh, that feels nice, so. - You remember that? - Yeah, I remember that. She's awake, yeah. - Yeah, I think for a lot of people that happens, like you don't have sex, you just forget about it. Some people just don't forget about it, I do think that's true, but for a lot of people and this has been studied, if you're having a lot of sex, you want more sex, like it's like, it keeps adding up. - Yeah, why is that? - It's almost like your body is addicted to it. - Well, look, as you remember that you're a sexual being and you're remembering how good it feels and that you wanted, so. - Yeah, which I think is good, but it made me think also in long-term relationships where people talk about not having sex for long periods. I'm like, yeah, I guess it would be the same. If I was in a relationship, ideally you wouldn't ever stop, so then you wouldn't get to the withdrawal phase, but I can imagine if you do get in this rut then being like, oh, okay, yeah, the person you see every day doing the same thing every day is not going to then get her going. You need then to spice it up or feel the intimacy. - Well, that's why so many couples get in a dry spell or whatever they stop having sex, and then getting out of that is so hard, especially 'cause they don't have the communication skills to be like, hey, babe, what's going on? Like, how can we reconnect? Or like, once always initiating and the other ones like, don't fucking touch me, so that's why they're in therapy with me. (laughing) - No, but it does take a lot of work. You're not alone, and this is very common. - Yeah, luckily my dry spell's over. - Hopefully. - Hopefully, yeah. - Okay, so let's talk about condom use because I do think it's very interesting. You are very strict about it. Have you always been strict about it or just like now? - Yeah, I think no. Have I always been very strict about it? - Please. - No. - I think especially like, as she is, what? I don't know, I feel like I used to say, oh, I'm on the pill, so it's fine. Like, as if-- - Like, it's fine. Just come in me and-- - Yeah, just come in me. We're good. So definitely when I was younger, I did that. I think the moment for me where it changed was I went off birth control. I'm now on, I have an IUD, but before I went off for a few years, and so then I was really aware of it, and then thinking, and then I realized, oh, there's a lot of times I just like would be like, let's just do it anyways. So I think that made me more conscious, and I mean, I think people should do whatever they want. So if they want to have unprotected sex and have the guy pull out, no problem. If they wanna have unprotected sex and not have the guy pull out, not like, you know, go off, do you. For me, I think if I'm seeing somebody, and it's just one person, then I won't be, then I won't, you know, ask them, like, shall we stop, or shall we just commit and see each other? But otherwise, then yeah, I probably will use a condom. Yeah, and I think it's also nice to vet out people that are just assholes, you know, if they try to not let you, yeah. - Yeah, yeah, well, what are your thoughts on that? - Well, for me, any sexual decision, it's like, if you have all the information and you know the risks, you decide which ones you're willing to take. - Oh my God, wait, actually, what? That's true, I, okay, fine, fine, sue me. I was in a few months ago, I was in El Salvador, and had, yeah, I mean, it was the past story. It was like, I was on a road trip with this guy, and we went, there was this hot spring waterfall, and so it was like, yeah, waterfall, and then pools that were all hot tub temperature, which is my preferred temperature. It went cliff jumping, and then we were the only ones there, and then we started getting intimate in the pool, the hot pool, and I did have the moment, I was like, okay, in my head, I was like, okay, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yeast infection, unprotected sex, could get an STD, could get a UTI in this water, and I was like, okay, let's go, we're doing it, yeah, yeah, exactly. No, no, sue me, I think you knew the risk. Yeah, I knew the risk, and I was like, okay, we're doing it, yeah, so totally, totally. Totally, like, you were aware, and that's when you decided, and I have friends that will have unprotected sex a lot, and because they want to, like, they know what can happen or not happen, and I'm like, go do you-- Yeah, totally fine. I have never used protection for oral sex in my fucking life. Oh, yeah, I know, I also think, and then I won't, and I know the risk, I know them, and I just refuse, like, hmm, I don't like it, so. Well, that's good that you know, the risk is, I don't even think I thought about protection for oral sex until I was, like, 30. Right, yeah. 'Cause people don't, they're like, talk about it, and you don't know, people don't know that they can get a throat, chlamydia, and gonorrhea, and I have friends that have had that, and like, it's, I can leave, I haven't gone mid, honestly, I will not use a barrier for oral sex. Yeah, I've never, and if I do at some point get it, it's like, I took the risk, like, this is the consequence, and I am okay with that. If you're not, then you're welcome to use your barriers, and can't do that. It is interesting, though, because I wonder what it would be like if we had grown up in a society where the norm was barriers. Right. 'Cause like, I wouldn't even thought of using, like, any type of barrier, one, to like, while I'm giving them head, but also, while they're going down on me, it was just like, not in my repertoire at all. So I wonder how it would look if it were. I mean, I still would probably just prefer. Right. Yeah, but I've never used it. Right, like, I have dental dams, which is most commonly used for vulva on vulva, oral, or oral on a vulva. I have dental dams, asking how many times I've used it. Zero, yeah. Zero, and I'm like, oh, maybe I should just like, make content with these to educate, but like, me, go down on someone with a barrier. It's not that big of you. Maybe if they're on their period, or something. Yeah, sure, but like, I, no. Then you're probably doing other things. Yeah, yeah. It's a toy on you, like, it's fun, you know? So no. You know, it's just risks. Okay, I want to talk about, 'cause how long ago did you move to Amsterdam soon? Eight years ago, I think. Okay. Yeah, long time. Okay, no, it's been a while. Yeah. But have you had any culture shocks? Oh, just in general? Yeah, well, dating wise. Dating wise, yes. I think that the Dutch can be very direct. So that has been something I found. I think I, and it's also a language barrier thing. So I do remember, like, going on three dates to somebody. This is years ago, and then I'm saying, I'm just not in love with you. And then I was like, yeah, me, me neither. I don't even really know you yet, but that was like, I think a language barrier, and also very direct. But, okay, clear, clear no. They split checks more, I think, so. But what I don't like is it's not really splitting the check. It's sending a ticky, or sending like a Venmo request, or PayPal request after the date. So that drives me insane. So it's like they offer to pay, or they put their card down, and then they send you a request for a conversation. No, they can mention it, but I still feel like, then I'd rather just split it there, then get the way I feel as though I get an invoice after the date or something. I really hate that. Yeah, so that I notice one thing I love is holding hands on the bicycle, or yeah, it's very cute. Have you ever ridden on the bicycle? Or like getting driven to the date on the back of your bike? Yeah. That's hot if you do it right, if you fail, and yeah, fall or something. Yeah, I love the guy to bike me. Or I'll also bike a guy, I can bike a guy. So that I really like, and what are other cultural... Oh, well, uncircumcised penises. That was a culture shock. Oh, no. In the US, in the US, so many people do, yeah. Or circumcised, so for me. I've always been an international girly, so it's never been an issue. Yeah, so I remember my first one. I really remember it was in this student flat, and I remember going down and be like, oh my God! I think I fangirled his uncircumcised pen. Okay, but you weren't turned off or confused about what to do. No, I will say that's probably because I knew what was going to happen being in Europe, so I was ready for it. But yeah, but it is different. I think I had one partner who was telling me about how it feels, where his skin is a little bit tight, so I think it was interesting that we also want men to... Yeah, that people are not copy-paced. I think that was a very good realization. I'm like, oh, I give a great blowjob. I love sucking dick, and I've always been really proud of my blowjob skills, but I think I've treated every penis quite equally. When they're all different, little, or big, they're all different penises and deserve separate attention and care and getting to know them. I'm always... I just ask. I'm like... Like how they like it. I do a little bit of everything and I want to prefer this or this, or if I'm doing a hand job, I will show me first how you like it. Yeah, that's so good. It's like endless ways of doing this. You're gonna have to tell me. I've seen people just do the tip, or just do the base, or do everything, or do like really, really small strip, or do long... You know, like, I'm like, that's so smart. I'm not gonna figure this out. Like, you don't have that much thing. Yeah. So I just like ask. Yeah. I think that's a really... Intention. Really good tip. Yeah. Yeah, so now I know that they're all different. Yeah. Well, I think we do talk a lot about vulva diversity. Exactly. Which is very important, but no penis is the same. Yeah. Like they're the same. Just like vulva is the same, but they're not the same. Yeah, or somebody who likes it really... I mean, just very simple. Somebody really likes sloppy, and somebody likes it neat. No, no, but like, I mean shapes. Oh, sorry. Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, they're just... There's a wide variety. Definitely. And I've been really tall people with an average stick, and I've been with short people with huge sticks. So like, really, height doesn't... No, I feel like short kings can really rock a girthy dick. Oh my god. Yes. No, even... Like, they can pack. Yeah. Yeah, they're blessed in other ways. So any other culture shocks to mention, or not really? Any other culture shocks to mention? No, I think one thing I don't love is that it's just not the most open. So you can meet people by going to a house party via via Yumi people, but in bars and stuff, it's not the most people go out with their friends to be with their friends. There's not like a culture. Not necessarily to like, yeah, exactly pick up culture. Okay. But I want to go back to splitting the charcoal quig. Yeah. Well, that is like their culture, right? Do you still feel more attracted or like, do you like it more when they take care of it? Yes. I mean, I definitely like it more when they take care of it. And then I still like, I don't, for me, I don't necessarily feel good about it every time. I'm interested by drinks or like the next round of drinks or something, but definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, I know I can't afford this, but like, if you take care of it, I'm just like. Yeah. And I think, yeah, my ex also would be like, I would also say, shall we split it? And he would be like, are you crazy? Like, yeah. And I do like it. So I'll offer, I always offer, but if you refuse me, I'm like, yes, we like that. Yeah. Yeah. I do. Yeah. And I remember one time texting this guy like, Oh, thanks for dinner. I'd love to see you again. And then he's like, Oh, I think it's not for me. And then I got the tiki after too. And I'm like, Oh, burn. That is? No, that's weird. Yeah. Actually, I think it opens up to them changing their minds. It's weird. If that's the culture is like, Oh, no, let me get it. And then if they don't want to see you again, it's like, Oh, actually, yeah, that happened actually that happened once to where I told the guy, like, Oh, okay, I think I had a really nice, I'm getting to know you. But I think we should leave it here. And he sent the tiki. Right. Yeah. And then I'm like, okay, you weren't going to send the tiki if we were going to continue to see each other. But now that we're not. Yeah. That's fucked up. It's got splitting it beforehand. Yeah. Then I think it's really fucked up. It's like you're taking away a good, a nice gesture even if we're not exactly again. Also, do you? Yeah. And it totally turned me off. I was like, I would never, if I changed my mind, I would never like, that's so, it's deep. It's better. Yeah. And, and do you ever, though, if the dates, like really bad, I'll do this and I'm like, why the fuck am I doing it? Just say, I'll get it. Yeah. I'll be like, I got it. I don't even offer to split. I'm like, I'll get, and then I'm like, I'll come out of my mouth and I'm like, why? I guess it's because you so badly don't want to owe anything is why I'm saying it, but. But it's so sad that we feel like we owe shit. Yeah. It's such a weird, subconscious thing. I had an era where I would insist on getting the whole bill every fucking time. And I think also, because I was raised, and I still fight with this with my parents. They raised me to be like, you offered to pay. If they buy you something, you have to buy them something back. Like, it has to be like so 50, 50, and I was like, why did you raise me? Like, for me now, it's so hard to receive things, but now I'm in my era, like, treat me. Yeah. I'm in my receiving era. I'm like, it's really good. I'm like, yes, boil me. Yes, you plan the date. Yes, you pick me up. Yes. You do everything. And I'll just like, I'm just a girl, you know, perfect, I'm just a girl. But if it's a woman, I'm talking about men. If it's a woman or a non-binary person, I will do everything. I will pay for everything. I will worship you. I will treat you like a princess. And that's what I want in men. Interesting. When I started seeing women and I saw how I treated them, how I cared about their pleasure, how many orgasms I would give them without caring about mine, I was like, if I do this, no one told me to do this. Yeah. I did it out of the goodness of my heart. That's the only treatment I'm going to get from men. That's what I want. Yeah, it's so interesting that it's interesting that you show up differently to both dynamic. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it makes sense. Yeah. No, I worship women. Yeah. But with men, I'm like, I'm worshiping worship. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I like it. You're in the receiving era. I'm in my receiving era. It's a very good era to be in. Yeah. We'll see. I'm very comfortable here. So, we'll see. Okay. So, let's quickly mention King say, before we finish it off, so you dabbled in street art. Yes. This year was your last one. In Amsterdam. Yeah. In Amsterdam. Yeah. So, you were, you would print huge posters of comics and you would go around the sit hosting them. Yeah. Posting them. Big social media movement. This year, you did condoms with royal, which I love. Yeah. So, what was that like? Yeah, it's amazing. It's like a huge community thing in Amsterdam, which is great. So, I've been doing street art for three years now and this was my like sixth, I don't know, fourth. No. Ah, doesn't matter. Fifth, a campaign. And the first year it was a true King knows who comes first with a mission to close the orgasm gap. Then it was a true King knows, toys are friends, not foes. And it was all about sex toys. And then this year was a true King always has a royal guard. And then I made royal guards with a royal intimacy, royal condoms. And it was just, I love street art because it's really getting that live reaction with people and everyone is engaging with it. And I think it's so cool because the number of women who have sent me messages that say, like, I've never had this much oral sex in one night, like your stickers are magic. Like I gave it to my boyfriend and he showed me what it means to be a King. And I was like, great. You can do this every night now. Yeah. So that's really nice. That is the goal. Yeah, that's the goal. So it's also like, if it's different from seeing a post on Instagram and seeing art on the street and reposting it and then word of mouth and I've seen, I told you, I saw your art on people's field profiles. Some guy was like, oh my God, you know, Jess? And I'm like, yeah. They were from Amsterdam. They're like, I love her. I love that. I know. So nice. So it's just like a different also kind of, not art, but like way to get yourself out there. Yeah. Different than, you know, Instagram and what we don't. It's fun to get that live interaction. Yeah. Just like workshops. Yeah. It's different to have a live audience. Totally. The feedback. The feedback. Not just like a DM. Yeah. Yeah. It's different. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um, I want to finish off with the, would you rather? Ooh. Okay. I'm ready. Would you rather get, spend the night with someone, let's say, now that your, the J is open for business, spend the night just someone's like, let me take care of you. Don't even fucking touch me. And then they go down on you for however long has many rounds, maybe even toys. Open a tration. Okay. Just like, just you. Mm hmm. Receiving era. But like, the favorite technique, like amazing or like, what would you choose tonight, bad or your threesome with two men? Oh my God. Threesome with two men. Taffina. Well, but you don't come doing the threesome. Oh, wait. You can't just switch it. Yeah. No, I'll will. So. No, then the first one. I am having a threesome with two men. I am going to have an orgasm, like that is insane. There's two of them and they couldn't figure it out. No, thank you. No, thank you. I didn't think I've ever had an orgasm during it, during any group play. No. It's just so busy. Interesting. I mean, it's a little hard for me. I haven't done it. Yeah. I think I could. I think I could. I would, I would argue that if it's just three of us and I'm the receiving queen. No, well, actually you're because there's two penises to take care of. You're always busy, like you're busy doing things, either you're getting fucked and you're sucking dick or you're hands busy, like, right. So your mind is like, my mind is like, I need to be doing these two things instead of like, Oh, let me feel pleasure and like enjoying myself. That's really interesting. So, okay. Well, anyways, for tonight and on my principle of my fantasy for what my threesome involve, I'm going to go with the first of the receiving. Okay. And then after I have a threesome, you can ask me again, okay, and then I can, maybe I might answer you. Wait, but like your, my first threesome suck compared to my other threesome, like because one, one is not enough something. Yeah, true. Well, and if it's really good, maybe the second one won't be in it. It's really bad. Like my first one's terrible and the second one was fucking insane. So just to find out, you'll have to have more than one. Yeah. All right. I've worked to do. Okay. Awesome. We're still recording. Okay, good. Jess, thank you so much for coming. I'm so happy. We finally did this. Yeah. Me too. It's so nice to meet you. I know. Working people find you. Vanilla Quotence on Instagram. vanillaquotence.com and yeah, I'm Jessica. You have a sub stack as well. Oh, yeah. I'm going to start writing more. You have a sub stack, Vanilla Quotence on sub stack. Please subscribe. Alexa helping me out here. Yes. It's the promo. Yeah. Okay. You ready to turn off the lights? Yeah. All right. We did it. Great. Yeah.