In Bed With Alexa

Navigating Consent in Complex Situations (ft. Sarah Casper)

In this episode, sexologist Alexa Andre (@sexwithalexa) is joined by Sarah Casper from @comprehensiveconsent, author of The Kids and Consent Curriculum, and consent educator. We dive deep into the concept of consent, exploring its different types and how to ask for it. Sarah explains why consent doesn't necessarily have to be sexy but should always be asked for anyway. We also tackle some gray area situations, such as both people being equally drunk, whether you should ask for consent every single time in a long-term relationship, and how power dynamics like a big age gap can affect consent. This episode is a must-listen for anyone looking to understand and practice consent more effectively.

Duration:: 50m
Broadcast on:: 19 Jul 2024
Audio Format:: mp3

[upbeat music] - Sarah, are you ready to get in bed with me? - Yes, enthusiastic, yes. - Good, that's on brand with what we're talking about today. Everyone, I have Sarah Casper, consent educator. - Yep. - And the only guest that has ever actually worn pajamas on my podcast and I'm obsessed. I love when everyone draws this up, but this is more on brand with me. Thank you so much for coming. - I'm very glad to be here. - Yay. - Okay, I'm being in bed with you. I love when she's blind but with me. Okay, let's get right to it. What is consent and what are the different types of consent? - So often when people ask me this question, I'm like, well, I know I'm a consent educator. I know my brand has comprehensive consent, but I actually really struggle with the word consent because it is so many things. There's like the legal consent, which is gonna be different from state to state. If you're in the US, from country to country, then there's like policy consent, like every university or, business will have a code of conduct and have there somewhat of a definition of consent so that that's like a policy definition. And then there's the word that's become pretty popular in the last little bit that people will talk about as either permission or like wantedness. Like they didn't get my consent to take my picture. - Right. - Where they're not even talking about like a legal setting, it's not like they need legal consent. More is just like a, they didn't ask me if that was okay. And sometimes also people will use it to be like, "Oh, I didn't want that. Like that wasn't consensual." Because well, usually because also they didn't ask them, but they mean it more in a, I didn't want that sense than an, I didn't agree to that sense. - Yeah. Okay. So in the more interpersonal realm of consent, what are the different kinds that we know about? - What do you mean about it? - Like opt out. - Yeah. - The enthusiastic. - Oh, there is a big sigh. So I think there's like a lot of markers of like what is like valid consent more than like, it feels like more like, what are different ways we can think about consent? Like either explicit, verbal, indirect, enthusiastic. - Oh god. Sorry. - There's opt out consent. Opt out consent, opt in consent. Yeah. So there, I mean, that's the thing is like, anyone can put a word in front of it. I can go like and decide like, this is the kind of consent that I think is valid or that I need or that you need to do. Yeah, it feels like it's an infinite list. - But because there are so many ways of practicing consent, should we be telling people the way we want them to ask for our consent? - Yeah. So that is, I think that is exactly it. Like meta communication, like talking about how we talk and how we want to interact. So less, like there is some level of prescriptive consent of like, of like prescribing like, this is what you need to do, right? Like the basics of like, you need to know that if you're going to do something with someone that they wanted it. But then there's also the like, how to know if they want it, needs to be a conversation with them of like, do you want me to check in every time? Do you prefer that, you know, since we know each other really well, that I kind of just do and you let me know if you want me to stop? - Correct. 'Cause like, a lot of people like ask me everything you're going to do to me before you do it. And for example, at the gynecologist, it doesn't necessarily have to be sexual. I want them to just let me know what they're doing. I don't want anyone to just put a speculum in my vagina without my knowledge, right? Like that is too much. But with a partner, I might be like, you don't have to fucking ask me. I'll tell you if you need to stop. And then I just had Cory Bush, and they were like, I'm neurodivergent. And if you keep asking me, it takes me out of subspace. And so they prefer opt-out consent, right? So I think the most important thing is that we have to figure out what we want and we need to tell the other person, ask me, don't ask me, I'll tell you blah, blah, blah. - Yeah. Or like, don't ask me about like check in, or we're going to have non-verbal signals for like, that's too much. - Yeah. If you can't speak, squeeze me. - Squeeze me. - Squeeze something, tap something, drop something, yeah. And also that that's going to change from person to person and from time to time. Like, it might be that when Cory's playing with someone where there's a chance that they're going to be in subspace. I'm not speaking for them. But like, that is their preferred method, but maybe the first time they're with someone. - It has to be enthusiastic. - It might need to be more direct, where you're still building that. - Yes, exactly. So if there is no conversation, what should be the default? Like, 'cause a lot of people are not having these conversation. So what do you think should be like our default? - Got air on the side of caution. If you're not talking about it, I think you have to air on the side of caution and ask more questions and be more vigilant and do more check-ins until you know that that's okay. And also my usual like tip is that it's not for the person who's doing something to someone to say, are you okay with me doing until you say no, but for the person to have stuff being done to them, like offering that because, again, it depends on the relationship, but definitely if it's a new relationship, you don't wanna pressure someone to saying like. - I think that let's clarify this example. So if we were playing together for the first time and you are doing things to me, I should be the one to tell you, hey, just check in from every once in a while, I will tell you if you need to stop. - Exactly. - You have my go ahead. But if you are the one that brings it up, then that might pressure me into being like, oh, okay. - Right, like can you just tell me if you don't like it, I don't wanna ask. Like that wouldn't be, that puts you in a really hard spot. - Yeah, only if I'm like, hey, I feel comfy with you, feel free to do X, Y, and Z. But today, I really, my nipples are sensitive. Like, please don't touch him, or you know, whatever it is. And then. - Right, or I can say like, hey, like, how do you like to communicate during sex? And that as like someone who's about to do something to you, that's totally fine, it's like an open-ended question. - That's encouraged. - That's encouraged, fair, fair. That's encouraged as opposed to like, that leading like, this is my preference. - Right. - Can I have, can you do this? - But it's just not speed. - Yeah, exactly. - Okay. Yeah, I think in a lot of spaces, if you're at a play party, if you are at the club, whatever it is you do, if there is an a lot of communication, I think the best route, the default route should be, like verbal, enthusiastic consent. Can I kiss you? Can I hug you? Can I, do you wanna go dance? You know, not just like grabbing them by the hip, it keeps grinding on them straight away, right? - Yeah, and even I think not, like, I actually am not a proponent of enthusiastic and then I kind of laughed at myself, but I said, like, yes and enthusiastic, yes in the beginning, but then check in on it. So like, if someone's not enthusiastic, if someone's like, yeah, I'll dance, then to be like, you seemed a little hesitant, what's that about? Like, just wanna check in, and that doesn't mean that their yes is like, invalid, it just means there's probably another layer to it, so they might be like, right, they might be shy, they might be like, well, yes, but only if it's a fast song, I don't wanna slow dance with you. - What does that mean, right? - Yeah, what is dancing for you? - I have to leave in six minutes. - I don't want you to grind up at whatever it is, but like, if they're not enthusiastic, it's not, I think people are like, if it's not a hell yes, it's a hell no, and I get that, like, it's, it's, don't continue, like, pause. It's not a, if it's not a hell yes, it's a pause. It's a pause not, it's a no, now you can't do this. It's a pause, figure out why that yes wasn't a hell yes, and then proceed. - With curiosity, not with, like, tried to convince. - 100%, 100%. - Yeah, like, I wanna make sure, I wanna make sure this is a fun experience for you. - Exactly. - There was some, I felt some hesitation, is that, am I right, am I, and like, checking in on what you notice and why you're doing that, I'm sure. - Yeah, not a lot of that, if it's not a fuck yes, it's a pause, it's a fun music game. - All right, sometimes they like, sometimes, I think there's like a, it's a yes, so then you're good, or it's a no, so then you're not good, and it's like, no, actually, if it's a yes, continue asking questions. - Yeah. - Like, even if it's a yes, also, like, even if it's a hell yes, like, yes, I totally love to dance, and I'll be like, cool, what kind of dance do you like to do? How much time do you have? - Yeah, I think-- - Do you wanna lead? - Get all the yeses, not just one yes. - Not just one yes, yeah. - Yeah, and also sometimes a no can be no right now. Like, hey, I actually, my friends puking in the bathroom, I have to go check on them, but if they're doing great, then sure, like, let me just give me five minutes, right? So, find me, and then you can be like, okay, come find me if you're able to, or if you want to. - Yeah, a lot of the time I'll talk about the difference between pressure, encouragement, and clarification. So, let's say someone says no. Pressureing would be like, come on, please, please, please, I really want-- - Don't be such a fighting poor. - Yeah, you're ruining the fun. Yeah, that would be like, pressuring. - We don't do that. - We don't do pressuring. Encouragement would be in a moment where they're like, wanting to do something, but they're a little bit hesitant. So, it's, you can kind of think of the difference as like, I know that's avoiding, and I know that's approaching. I sometimes use like, like, zip lining as an example, actually, of like, there's your family vacation, there's the kid who's like, I don't want to do this, it's like so scary, I'm not interested. And then there's a kid who's like, oh my God, I'm so scared, but it looks so funny. Okay, wait, it's totally safe, right? I really want to do it. - And like, they're hesitant. - They just need to feel more comfortable. - They just want to feel more comfortable, and that can happen also, especially in kink space, in like, kink and in kink spaces, where someone's like, this looks like a really cool thing to try, but I get that there is risk, and so I am hesitant, so I'm not a hell yes, let's do it, let's jump right in. Like, okay, I think so, but like, I need to ask some questions. - Or I'm scared, I'm not gonna be taken care of, can we talk about it so more? - 100%, and that would be like, and they might even be like, can you kind of, it's almost like, can you talk me into doing this? - Yes. - Or like, like, you're... - All right, yeah, oh, something you just need more information, and reassurance. - Right, and sometimes you need more information, and encouragement and clarification can sometimes like, border on each other, more clarification is like, you might be, I, as someone who asks you to do something, I recognize that you might be thinking, I'm saying X, but I'm actually saying Y. So let me clarify for you. So it's not pressuring, it's not like, come on, please, please, they're giving new information. - Right, so if you ask me, do you wanna play? I'd be like, what does play mean for you? Do you wanna make out? Do you want to, like, do double penetration? Wait, wait, wait, what the fuck does that mean for you? - Exactly, so I'm clarifying, or like, right, can we, can we do nipple play, right? And then you're like, no, and I'm like, oh, I meant like, you doing it to me or whatever. - Right. - No, my nipples are sensitive. I don't know, it would be you doing it to me. - Right. - And then it's like, oh, oh, that's a clarification that's not a pressure 'cause you had clearly assumed that I was talking about doing it to you, and now I'm clarifying, and so that is not the same thing as pressuring, but I also usually will say, for clarification, like, be careful with it 'cause it can, again, bleed into that pressure territory. - It's the fine lines between them all, but I like the differential. - The different, yeah, of like, where, 'cause of course, like, no, the conversation's not over just 'cause someone said, the conversation isn't necessarily over because someone said no. - Oh, yes. - Or yes, yeah. It's just be careful of what kind of questions you're asking after. - Yeah, I think the pressure we really like, 'cause that's, and that's what how, you know, peer pressure exists, it's a thing. So we need to be mindful of not doing it and being firm on our boundaries, which is what I wanna talk about next, so 'cause consent and boundaries go hand in hand. I feel like if we don't know our boundaries, it's hard to give or take consent because if you don't know what you want, then how are you agreeing or disagreeing to something, right? - And how do you know what questions to ask as well? - Yeah. - Like, how do you know if you don't know what your limits are and usually goes hand in hand with what your wants are? - Yeah, how are you supposed to ask for things you want or say no or yes to the things that are offered? - So boundaries come first, then consent, basically. - What do you mean? - Like, I think if you're asking someone for the consent, they should have their boundaries clear. If you're getting asked, you should know what you wanna get out of it before you like agree or disagree if you don't really know yourself. - Yeah, I actually don't think boundaries come first. I actually think wants come first. - Okay. - Because before there's any movement towards something, someone has to want something. - Yes. - So that's the first step, actually. And like, that's, I kind of think of that's when the like consent interaction begins. Isn't with someone saying no, but is with someone first getting in tune with what they want. And so they can honestly ask, hey, I want this thing, are you willing to do this? And then that person's first step is boundaries, but the first, or like, what are my limits? And am I willing to give this to you? Or am I willing to do this with you? But the whole interaction is actually starts with a desire. - Yeah, I agree. And I mean, in more in a way, that is like, if you go into a play party or a space, set an intention, know what you are willing or not willing to do, where it ends, where your boundaries will be pushed. And then if you are clear in that, if you know today you don't wanna have anal, you just wanna make out. Then someone asks you. And then you're like, you already thought about it. It's also easier. - Yeah, yeah, I think, I think, especially like in a given moment, helpful to do that. And also knowing how to notice in yourself at the moment, so less of like an intellectual, like what do I want to do? What do I not want to do tonight? But what are my skills in like recognizing when something does not sound good to me or when something does not feel good to me and my ability to like value that, believe that and speak up? - Yeah, well, we all need to advocate for ourselves 'cause that's the big thing we really talk about this. Okay, what about the people that keep saying that asking for consent ruins the mood? And it's not necessary and it's geeky and, I don't fucking know what they say, like it's just ridiculous. - So, yeah, I actually say maybe it might be awkward. - It might be awkward, but that's not a reason not to do it. - Yeah, I mean, always like if they don't want, if you asking ruins it, why do you want it? Like if they don't want it, you shouldn't want it either. - Yeah, or like you can still want it, but like you can still like-- - You can proceed. - Right, don't proceed. - You can't go through with it. - Right, right, don't go through with it. I'm like, yeah, it might be awkward and it might ruin the mood, but like try to get the mood back. - Yeah. - Like it's not, I think there's like this push right now for like consent is sexy. And so like therefore, that's why you should do it. And it's like, no, no, no, no, no, no. The reason to do it is not because it's sexy and I think that setting up false like expectations, it might be uncomfortable. And in fact, the person that you're with might actually be the one who says, why are you asking me, that's so weird. Like, I've seen people do that. - I think, okay, yes, but we as people should reframe our feelings and thoughts about consent. If I think it's weird for someone to ask me, then why is it weird, right? So I ask a person should be like, hey, actually this means they respect me and want to do things that I want to do. So like I need to reframe. If you feel like it's awkward and weird and it still might be, but like, think about why you think that. - Totally. - Why isn't it sexy yet? Why can't I think it's hot when someone wants to know how I feel about them doing things to me? - And also that's the chance to be like, I get that you're asking because you're trying to respect whatever, I'm very okay with you just doing things to me and I'll tell you know if you don't want. And then it goes back to that what we were talking about before. - And then the one's back, yeah. - And then we're talking about before, which is like, okay, if that's your preference of communicating, I think that is way riskier, but also okay, if that is what you're like agreeing to and that's what you're signing up for. Okay, yeah, and then you get the move back on, but I think that like A, I think that like yes, more often than not, it doesn't ruin the mood, but B, even if it does or even if it's awkward, like okay, so you still have to do it. That's like, I don't know, like not getting like vaccinated because it hurts, but it hurts and it's like, okay, so? - Yeah. - Like you still need to do this for safety purposes. - Yeah. - Like, what, this is not a, it doesn't have to be like, we don't have to try to convince people that's gonna be amazing all the time. - Right. - For it to be something worth doing. - The moment I asked you to be on the podcast was the moment you posted this really cool thread of questions that are just not as simple as what we've been saying. You know, it's a great area. Sometimes consent is blurry and it's messy and it's, it's not, should not be non-negotiable, but sometimes you just don't fucking know, right? So let's start with substances or alcohol. If both people, two people are the same level of high or drunk, can they use consent? - Yeah, so I wanna also clarify because I work, I work with kids, teens and adults, how I talk about this with kids and teens is going to be different. - We're talking about adults. - Is that how I talk about this with adults? - Yeah. - So this is not like, okay, so now go take this and talk to your kids about this in this exact way. It's, I don't know, we're talking about people with fully developed brains and practice, presumably practice in drinking and sexual play versus a child. - A chill, a child. - Yes. - Yes. - So now that we got mad out of the way. - I like the UK of Pakistan. - Yeah. - This podcast for adults, it's like a race. - I'm like, but people who have kids might see this and be like, okay, right now I know what to do. And I'm like, no, no, no, please don't. - Yeah, so if people are like the same, I'm gonna tell a story. - Yes. - I was in a space once where I was a guardian for a play party, so kind of making sure everyone's following the rules, staying safe. And these two people were wanting to start playing. They went to a bed and I went over and I was like, hey, what are y'all doing? Because one of them was wobbly when she was walking. Talked to me for a little bit was not making sense. People had come over and been like, is she okay? - Yeah. - And I came over and I asked the person who was presumably sober, looked so barely. And I was like, you know, what's going on here? What are you doing? Like, oh, we're just like having fun or whatever. And I'm like, she is visibly drunk. And the other person, she was like, no, like, she's okay, like, she wants to do this. She's been saying yes. And I was like, she is clearly intoxicated. I don't know with what. This is a play space. You cannot do this here. There is a policy here where if someone is too intoxicated, we do not allow for a play to happen with them. I don't get to control what you do outside of this space. Now, do I think it's a good idea? Do I think it's a moral idea? I don't like do I think it's a legal idea? That is beyond the scope of like, kind of what I am in this role. But I can tell you this cannot happen here. And so of the question of like, can two people who are like equal amounts of drunk, like consent, the answer is like, it depends what you mean when you say consent. - Yeah. - Legally, I don't know. Check with your country's laws that like, like, and also even with that, it's like, a story is gonna be constructed of what happened or what didn't happen in terms of legal. In terms of like, is it a safe thing to do? It's a lot less safe. So there are things you can do that I think of it kind of as like harm reduction, where like, have you had conversation? Did you have a conversation about getting drunk and then hooking up, right? That increases the chances that things are not gonna go bad. Have you hooked up with this person before? - Yeah, doing all this things. - And doing the things, like, especially if you're like playing in kink more than like, sacks. Like, have you done spanking with them before and you know what their tolerance generally is? That's gonna be harm reduction. - Those are inhibitions are lower. So they might take more pain, for example, but you know, they might not be rich. So I think it's just very complicated, right? If you know them and like, you went for dinner, had a few drinks and then you wanted to go home and fuck. Go home and fuck, right? But like, if you are like, oh my God, I really wanna go on the cross and like, do this for the first time, because I'm drunk and you know, now I have the courage. Then it's like, okay, maybe, maybe you shouldn't. - And especially if both people are drunk. - Oh yeah. - Because that increases the risk by like a ton. - No, but even if, even if you're the only drunk one and you wanna receive, it's like, you cannot set limits here. - Yeah, it's gonna be, yeah, it's very, it's super dangerous and I would, and I'll, I would say that it is, it is also like the responsibility more of the like, sober person, yeah. To be like, and it's, but I, and I wanna be, I think the framing of that is really important. It's not that like, you are too drunk to do this, which might be true, but not necessarily like you are too drunk to do this, but I'm not comfortable. - Doing this to you, it makes it, it makes it, it's not like a statement about that person, which can be easier for them to receive, it's an I statement. It's a self-focused statement. And then I think on top of all of it, like a big harm reduction thing, when you're dealing with like substances and play, is that you know how to be accountable, is that you know how the next morning, if you, you know, you both got drunk on a date, you know them well, you maybe even live with them, they say to you, hey, I was way too drunk to like feel like that was okay. And like, I wish you hadn't done that, I wish we hadn't done that to not be like, but you said yes, and like, we agreed to this, but to be like, that must suck that you're feeling this way now, I'm so sorry. - Let's try to know. - What do you need, yeah. - Let's try, how can we prevent this from happening? - How can we prevent this from happening? What do you need now? That's also like a big part of, yeah. - For sure. - Yeah. - Yes, I agree, like hold space for them. And also, I meant like to drink, it's not like a good batch of drink. - Right, right. - Yeah, and that's right. Like, to be about equal amounts of drunk, it's like, yeah. Well, right, how drunk is drunk? - Yeah, I think anything after tip C, and this is just maybe my personal preference, anything after tip C is too drunk. Maybe even tip C might be even too much. - And also like, what is tip C? - None of that's defined by law. Like, it's really hard to define, and to say, I think to put on like, that's not consensual, it's like, well, then there is like, a lot of wanted non-consensual stuff going on. - Yeah. - Which gets a really tricky area, again, about like, what does consent mean? - Yeah. - If two people get at your drunk and have sex and enjoy it, was that illegal? Was that non-consensual? - Mm-hmm, yeah, no, it's definitely a gray area. - Yeah. - And I love having these conversations 'cause there's no clear answer. - There's no clear answer. - You all have to just challenge everything and figure out what works for you. We're just trying to guide you through that. I also wanted to say that we love guardians, and I feel like people are intimidated by guardians. And sometimes you only say something if you, if it's clear that this person's violating the rules, it's like, okay, this person needs to get kicked out, but if it's not clear, don't be afraid of speaking up and being like, hey, have you noticed that this person is tumbling or, hey, this person has been following me, like, can you keep an eye on them? But, you know, whatever it is, they're here to make you feel safe and comfortable. So I wanted to note that because I feel like even I have felt intimidated by guardians, so, but they're there for a fucking reason, so. - Yeah, I always tell people, like, if someone's like, oh, yeah, feel free to tell a guardian, I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, it's not feel free. It's, please tell a guardian, like you being in this space we're part of a community, is like, please take that upon yourself. And if you, you know, are not sure about something we want to hear from you. - Even if it's nothing. - Even if it's nothing, it helps us, like, because if we get a lot of, it wasn't a big deal. - Yeah. - Seven times about the same person. It's like, you know, those add up. - And they might not get kicked out, they just might need to have a conversation. Like, hey, this one specific behavior, it's making people uncomfortable. Can you dial it back on that? Done, 100%. - Yeah, you might be new to the space and so you don't know what the norms are, you're used to the norms in the real world, which is me. And so you just, and then like as soon as you say it you're like, oh yeah, it makes so much sense. Yeah, thanks for telling me. - Yeah, period. Yeah, it doesn't mean they're getting kicked out just because you said something. - Yeah. - Yeah, I just wanted to clarify that. Okay. And I guess this one is pretty straightforward. Now that we've talked about it, but like, if you're in an established relationship, if you've been with your partner for a while, should they always be asking for your consent? - Talk about it. - Yeah. So I literally talk about it and then yeah, like the opt in opt out model is great. Of like, here are the things that like, I don't need you to ask first because, and I will tell you, use your knowledge of me and I will, to figure out if it's a good idea to do it. And then I will let you know in case it's not. Or, hey, for this specific thing, I need you to ask me every time. Like you said with the speculum at the gynecologist. - But even if you've been together for however much time, and you haven't been asking, have the conversation. Maybe there's some things you don't know. Maybe there are some things that make them uncomfortable. And you should be, you know, curious about this. You know, it's your partner. You want to make them feel safe and comfy. So do have the conversation. Even if you've literally never talked about consent in your relationship, while you're having a meal, I think it'll bring you closer together. - Yeah, I'd be like, I was listening to this podcast and Alexa said, explain me. Oh, wait, I've told you, you can blame me for literally everything I say to Alexa said to talk about. - Oh, like to talk about, yeah. And you don't have to use the word consent to talk about. You can just like, I want to make sure that we're having as much fun and met as possible. - Yes, that frame it as however, if you know them, you frame it however you want. - Yeah, it doesn't have to, it's like, consent can feel like a very heavy thing and like someone's in trouble. And so I think that's why a lot of people shy away from it. And it's like, no, no, no, no, it's not, it's not our people in trouble. It's, are we having fun? 'Cause we could be having more fun. - Yeah, and I like more fun. - I like fun too. - And then you talk about it. Okay, what if you're in a relationship and then the morning after your partner says, "Hey, I actually wasn't okay with that." And you apologize, like, are you in trouble? Can that be used against you? - Yeah, this is a really complicated question. Got the like consent, sexual assault, like binary, or the like, it was enjoyable, or it was sexual assault, or it was, like, if I didn't say yes to every single thing, even though you asked some questions, it's sexual assault. Like, whoa, that makes it really challenging. - It's not black and white. - It's not, yeah, and you're not on, presumably in a relationship, you're not on different sides, you're on the same side. So if, so-- - Wait, wait, wait, wait, I do want, your partner can assault you, that it can happen. - Absolutely, absolutely. - You mean in like, very confusing cases, one, something happened and they're not comfortable in this, okay, it's us against this thing that happened, how can we prevent it and never let it happen again? - I so appreciate that clarification. Yeah, this isn't like a, this thing was forced upon me and like, this is like a, like, maybe like there was, impact play. - It's been too hard, like, you went above what we have gone to before and it made me, I don't want to, I don't want you to get made that hard. - Right, or like I said yes to giving head, but then you like, held my head down there. - Don't fucking do that. - Don't fucking do that. And once the person says that they like that, don't wanna do that. - Unless they ask you to push their head down. - Right, don't. - Don't do that, I hate it so much. - I hate it, I hate it. - Like, that is, and like, again, assuming you're in a, and but they do good aftercare. - Yeah, there is, they have the intention to be doing good and like, you feel and you feel like this was something that if they knew it, they would never have done it. - They would never have done it and they would want to change it and you're also not interested in taking legal action against them. You want a conversation which is what a lot of survivors like want is just for it to not happen again to them or other people. If you are receiving that from, if you are receiving that information from someone, if they are telling you, like, I didn't like this, most likely they are telling you this because they want to continue to be in relationship with you because otherwise they wouldn't waste their time. They would go straight to the cops. - It's because they care. - It's because they care. And so you apologizing, like, yes, I guess technically, again, I'm not a lawyer, but sure, technically they can say, like, well, if my partner, I told this to my partner and they said, oh, you're right, I did do that. I'm so sorry, right? Like, you could, if you decide to bring that up in a court of law, could bring that up in a court of law. But also, if that's how you respond, most likely, your partner won't want to do that because they're going to see that you care about them and you made a bad decision and you need to be accountable for that decision and you need to give care and you need to care, right? And reassure and you need to look at yourself and be like, what got in the way with me that like, I thought this was okay without asking and like, what, like, you know, maybe like, there's some porn scenes in my head that I'm like, haven't deconstructed like the difference between fantasy and reality and whatever work you need to do also on your own. But yeah, be accountable. And if we think about this consent as like, who was right and who was wrong, of course your defenses are going to go up and you're going to be like, I didn't do anything wrong though. - Yeah, you're going to go a defense offense and yeah. - Yeah, but if it is in the context of, you know, you genuinely made a mistake and you genuinely want to do better then my hard recommendation is to apologize and not think about it as like admitting guilt. Yeah, you're admitting responsibility for your choices. - It doesn't mean that you're necessarily in trouble. - Yeah. - It hit home when you did the head push example 'cause last time I was in New York, I was on a date and it went great. It was all great. Then we were hooking up and he did that to me and I felt so uncomfortable afterwards. I, and this maybe I should have stopped it there. I didn't, but then I was like, I'm going by and then I did, I knew I was never going to see him again but I did let him know so that he never does it to someone. I was like, hey, that's not okay. - Yeah. - And he was like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. Everyone else likes it. I'm like, no they don't. I'm like, I'm freaking something. They just haven't said anything and I'm happy. I said something because he really had no fucking clue that you cannot do that. So just ask. It's fine. - Yep. Yeah. Oh God. And like also that's the weird thing about like this idea of like consent and saying yes and sex and whatever. It's like you said yes to sex but you didn't say yes to that. - Yeah. - And like I don't, the court system doesn't tend to favor survivors. So like the chances that you bring that up as like therefore that's assault. And like when that case is like feels again, not a lawyer feels real low to me. And like it's not. And that's again, like if you think in this consent sexual assault binary, like it's gonna reflect poorly on the survivor every time. It's like, no, don't think about that. Like think about being accountable for your actions. And like if you harmed someone, if you made someone feel uncomfortable, apologize. - Yeah. And wherever, like if however you harmed him, not just in the sexual context. Like if you lied, if you hurt someone's feelings and not just your partner, but like a family, a friend, a co-worker, right? Holding yourself responsible and apologizing even if it wasn't on purpose. 'Cause they are hurt. So you should be sorry for hurting them. Even if you didn't, and don't just be like, I'm sorry but I didn't mean to. Like it wasn't my fault. Like be like, I am so sorry and just see how you can not repeat it. You know, but don't, you can't just say sorry and then take your blame off of it. You know, you have to really be like, I did do that. And I am sorry. - Yeah, I recommend people look at me and Mingus's for parts of accountability. For like getting deeper into like, I don't know how to be accountable for this. Yeah. - Awesome. - There's two, well, there's probably more types of desire, but two big ones, right? There's spontaneous desire where you like see a titty and you know, you are all suddenly horny. And there's responsive desire where you need things to be a certain way or maybe you need to start sexual activity, for example, and then you desire it. And then you end up having sex and you're like, oh my God, that was great. Even, I didn't want it at first. Like I was tired and then why don't we do this more often? Like I had such a good time. So this is complicated because a lot of people need that. They need to start it without fully wanting it. If not, they're never going to do it 'cause that's how their desire works. So it's like, how much do people have to want something to say yes to it, right? It's a complicated one. - It's complicated. Yeah, it's very similar to that like avoiding approaching and like encouraging or like pressuring and not clarifying if they are interested in seeing where something goes, then yeah. Like it's okay to say yes and be like, yeah, I'm gonna start this and then see. It's like, I don't know. It's like, 'cause you can stop at any point. - It's like if you are at someone's house and they offer you a dessert and it's a kind of food that you've never tried before. And you're like, oh, I'm not sure if I'm in the mood, right? You say like, yeah, I'll accept it in front of me. And then you take a bite out and or you take a spoonful and you smell it and you're like, okay, I'm still like this. This could be yummy. All right, like I'm gonna now take a bite. Ooh, you know what? This is really good. I actually would like the whole piece of cake pie, whatever. And that's totally okay. You don't have to be like, hell yeah, I want that dessert I've never had before. Or that dessert, even that I've had before, but like I'm not sure like if my stomach's up for it tonight or her and that's totally, it can be really invalidating to like insist that someone knows that they want it, that they want like the whole piece of cake. You might smell it and not want it. Yeah, actually not. Right, you might smell it and you might be like, you know what? I'm good, yeah, I'm good. Or like, or you might just have a bite and be like, I'm full of this bite, right? And it doesn't have to continue to the whole piece of cake. Right, so I think knowing that even if they're your partner or someone new, you can be in the middle of doing anything and be like, you know what, I am not comfortable. I would like to stop and they have to respect it. Now, if they don't, now that's illegal. Yeah. Right. So honor yourself if you want to stop 'cause I feel like a lot of people, we, a lot of times, we suck it up and we're like, oh, let's just wait until they come and you know, then it'll be over with. Like, now if you want to stop, advocate for yourself and stop. Like they don't know, they don't know if you want to stop if you don't fucking say anything, right. That is a little off subject, but like, know that you can stop and consent this ongoing, right? It's not just a one-time thing. Right, and like, if you know that like, you have responsive desire, you can also, if you want, tell the person like, hey, I'd like to get started, you know, doing some touchy, sexy things, but, you know, just as a heads up, I'm not sure if I'm gonna want the whole thing, does that, you know, does that sound good to you or are you still okay with that? And if they're not, okay with that, okay, that person's up for you, bye. - Yeah, bye, but I do think, 'cause also in a lot of long-term relationships, we stop doing the little sexy things and sometimes any touch, if I, if we're together for three years and I touch you, you kind of be like, oh, she wants to have sex, right? And so, also, if you want to help your relationship, touch just for touch, make out just to make out. If that's where it ends, you had a steam move, make out session as when you were a teenager, awesome. If it leads to something else, amazing. But like, touch just to touch, you know, show affection just to show affection, nod with the intention or the goal for that to lead somewhere else, 'cause your partner can feel it. And if you only touch them when you want sex, they're gonna start rejecting your touch and then you're gonna have a whole lot of new set of problems. - Yup. - No edits, yup, no, yup, yup, yup. - Sounds about right, sounds about right. - Yeah. - If the age is consent to 17, well, even if it's 18 and your partner is 30 plus, the 18-year-old might be like, I really want this. I'm in love with them. Like, I want to do whatever they want me to do. I love it. We're less power dynamics. Like, how does that impact consent as well? 'Cause that's the same thing with like a teacher and a student and if there's a power dynamic involved, then that adds another layer. - Yeah, I think it can be similar to like teacher student, but teacher student also, the teacher has like an authority power more than just like knowledge, experience, whatever. So it is a little bit different. - Okay. - Yeah, that's a question that I posted on that post and that was mostly those questions were like, if you're a consent educator, if you teach consent, how are you gonna answer this in your classroom? - So the answer that I would give in a classroom is more around like, listen, if it's legal, there's no one to call, there's no one to whatever, you just want to make sure that you like, keep their trust and be like, you know, what does that relationship give you? And you know, it can be really, and like validate that, like it can be really alerting to be with someone who's older and more mature and gives you attention. And also like, you're, you know, you might at some point then talk about, and they open up to you about like, maybe how you feel like they're not involved in your life, they're like, they don't hang out with your friends. Like, yeah, you're really different stages. I'm like, you might slowly try to support them in figuring out that that might not be the healthiest relationship, but in terms of like, you are just an 18 year old or a 33 year old or whatever listening to this podcast now, that's what I would say is, you know, like how, what are you getting out of this relationship? And are, have you talked about the power dynamic? What is the point? What is the purpose of the relationship? Have you talked about the power dynamic? And all, and you just kinda, you gotta monitor it. Like there isn't, there isn't a hard like right or wrong. I think it's about being genuinely honest with yourself. And I don't think that the word consent and non-consensual is actually the, not society early, the appropriate word. I think it's more like, what is it that you are 18 and you're looking and you're getting your, you know, you're trying to attach with someone who's so much older than you and not within your like stage of life and also like as a 33 year old like. - Is it love for, do they just say yes or everything you want? - Right, right. - Yeah, yeah, I think that's, yeah, that's actually another great point, which is like, I say a lot of the time, like I trust your yes once I hear your no. Which is like, yeah, if someone's always saying yes to you, it doesn't matter if it's a 33 and 18 or like a 16 and 17 or a 32 and 31, it doesn't matter. If they are never saying no to you, be suspicious of their yeses because no one is into everything. No one has no modifications when you ask them if they wanna do something. If they're just like, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And they're not like, yes, but only this way or like, no, not tonight, like then I don't trust their yeses. - Yeah, 100%. And also I gauge people by telling them no. Like it can be the most stupid thing. Like, hey, do you want to go for a walk? I don't fucking, I don't know. I just tell them no for something that they want. Not because I don't want it, but because I might not want it. But because I want to see how they react to my no. If they get defensive, I don't want to deal with that person. If they guilt trip me for saying no, whatever it is, right? I just want them to be like, okay, what do you want to do instead, or how about this? You know, indifference and like options, but how someone reacts to your noes says a lot. - Yeah, and has someone reacts to your no and if they might react like well at the time and then do that low-level boundary violation. Like, I'm not cool with you keeping stuff at, you know, my apartment and then they like, not like they forget something at your apartment, but they clearly have left like a couple of things. That's important to note. And again, especially, I think, especially if there is a power dynamic, that is one way that like that can play out as a person with power feels like entitled. And we'll start doing things that like cross your-- - Boundary and like that's when like, and you're like noticing that like, you're kind of justifying things for them. It's probably because there's a power dynamic. Yeah. - Yeah, so just be mindful. Oh, well, there's a lot of controversy wherein sexual education should start on kids. But my answer always is it starts with consent. You can literally start teaching your kids about consent as soon as they're born, not by like explaining it, so like you can be like, or you could actually explain it, even if they like don't understand, right? And be like, hey, I'm going to that, I'm going to change your diaper. And you're obviously going to change it, but from day one, you're letting them know. And as they get older, you don't make them greet every fucking family member with the kiss of the cheek if they don't want to. You don't, oh, give me a hug. I don't want to mom, I'm your mom, give me a hug. No, they don't want to give you a hug and you respect it. So, am I right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's exactly that. You don't need the word consent. And in fact, I actually think I can be confusing 'cause there are real things that like, like in the world of like child sexual abuse, like consent means something so different. Then like if you say like, I didn't give consent for her, like you can just say, I'm not okay with the hug, you didn't ask me first. I didn't give you permission for that. You can use like language that they already know so that it incorporates really smoothly and it makes it a thing that's not like necessarily about sex or this like high stakes things. It's just about like, yeah, people should be respectful of all of your boundaries and like, why might a boundary around touch feel more violating than a, you know, they took your toy? But honestly, like don't take my toys also. So yeah, from day one, it's exactly like you said about like your doctor might not say, is it okay now if I put a speculum in you, but they're gonna say, okay, I'm gonna put a speculum, it's gonna be cold, you're gonna feel right. You're gonna feel my touch first on your skit, like whatever it is. And like you're starting to, you're starting to show them that, that they, that their body is theirs and they get, you know, they get to be informed about like. - They have rights. - Yeah, they have rights. Right. - Okay, and what about if we do want to prevent sexual assault on our kids? - It's not my area of all expertise. - No, we don't talk about it. - Nope, I don't do sexual, I don't do sexual abuse prevention, I can provide resources. - We'll have someone else on the podcast. You know, I'll have all the questions about that. Okay, just, yeah, let's see boundaries. - Yeah, very, yeah, I'm like, this is not my expertise. I know I get the question a lot, so I know exactly where to point people. There's a lot of questions I'm gonna answer. - Okay, so who should I have on the fucker? - Rosalie Rivera is wonderful. Ralph L. Beyer, she's great. I'm like, I know people on like Instagram or whatever. I'll pair up parenting safe children, Heather Burkauer, I think that's your handle, yeah. - Fun. - Yeah, a couple. - I'll talk to them. - What if I'm topic? - I love resources, no. - We do love resources. - And that is really important. - Yes. - To know that topic, that is just my topic. - Yeah, I love it. - Okay, where can people find you? - @comprehensiveconsent, on Instagram, comprehensiveconsent.com. My name is Sarah Casper. I do work with kids, teens, adults, and the adults on the kids' teams, you know? Parents, teachers, most of my work is in schools, and I have a book that will probably be out by the time that this is recorded, or it's a book, but it's all lesson plans for teachers who wanna teach consent skills and build consent skills, and they're like eight to 13 year old students. - Can you drop the name because it'll-- - I don't have the name of the book yet, I'm still working on the title. - We'll put it in the description. - The book is in, we're gonna have it in, we just don't have a title yet. - Okay, let's finish off with a would you rather, also congratulations on the book. - Thank you so much. - Would you rather only be able to educate kids and teens or adults? - Kids and teens? - It's so easy. - It's so easy because I think that if you start learning young, as I say, when their brains are mushy, when their brains aren't fully formed, you're gonna have adults who are so much better at things 'cause they don't have things to unlearn. They need to continue learning, but so many adults, it's like, oh shoot, we got a lot of stuff to unlearn, and then learn, and I'm like, yeah, if we can kind of start with young people and then those young people will grow up and teach the next generation, we can create a new cycle. - Because like adults have to heal while everything else, their past, while they're learning new things and then reframe everything, so it's harder. - Stuff. - Yeah, I like, yeah, you're trying to prevent them, everything, you're trying to get in early. That was a easy one. - My real answer is, well, kids and teens, but also the adults that work with kids and teens. - Would you rather-- - As you I'd work with. - No, would you rather only teach kids and teens or the adults that work with kids and teens? - Whoof. Probably the adults. Probably the adults because me coming in for one time to work with a group of teens and definitely with a group of kids is truly not gonna be effective. What you need is the people around them to continually reinforce in the day-to-day lives, like diaper changes, car seats, hugs, kisses, whatever. And so, if my goal is to couldn't change which it is, that's gonna be the most effective path, though I love teaching kids and would miss that 'cause they're so funny. But training, like, I'll get to more about training teachers in there. - Yeah, if you give one talk to 20 teachers, they're impacting, you know, it's like a red sound. - Yeah, yeah. - Okay, luckily you don't have to choose. - I don't have to choose. - Everyone's like, "I think I was just..." - Okay, thank you so much for coming. Are you ready to turn off the lights? - I'm ready to turn off the lights. - Yay! - Let's get to bed. (laughing) Like, no man.