In Bed With Alexa

Trans Journeys: Sexuality, Safety, and Expression (ft. Maybe Burke)

In this episode, sexologist Alexa Andre (@sexwithalexa) is joined by Maybe Burke, a trans woman, artist and educator for an open and heartfelt conversation. We discuss her sexuality, orientation, identity, and expression journeys, and delve into her dating stories. Maybe shares how she stays safe as a trans woman and the unique challenges she faces. We also talk about the fact that she has never been in love, her thoughts on relationships, and some of her personal kinks. Trigger warning: This episode includes discussions about sexual assault and consent violations.

Duration:: 55m
Broadcast on:: 03 Jul 2024
Audio Format:: mp3

(upbeat music) - Maybe, are you ready to get in bed with me? - I, yeah, we're here. - We are in bed, when are you excited? - Yeah, I am. - Awesome. Everyone, I have maybe Burke, Artist and Educator. And we mostly, where I wanna talk about your daily experiences, 'cause that's mostly what you share online. And I am obsessed. (laughing) - Yeah, yeah, it's a fun little, it's an interesting thing to share so publicly, but it's a thing that I've been doing my whole career. I have a whole solo show that I did years ago about my love and sex life, and like the stories are unfortunately so relatable for some people. - Which is sad. - Yeah, yeah, how common some of the awful things that happen are for other folks, but I found there's great healing in the sharing of things. - Comfort, yeah. - Like the knowing that you're not the only person experiencing something is helpful usually, so. - Okay, so walk me through your journey, your sexuality journey. Like as you were a teenager, a horny teenager, full of hormones, and your experiences, was there a lot of shame in the way you grew up? What was the sex I'd like? Tell me everything. - Oh, how was the sex ad? Do you mean STD day in health class? - Yeah, so I actually, health was like an elective in my high school that you had to take, but at any point. - Okay. - And so I didn't take it until my senior year, but most people took it freshman year. So I was 17 taking this class with a bunch of like 14 year olds, which is a huge doubt, not in like number, but like in experience, 'cause I was already sexually active by the time I took that health class. And this was like years and years before marriage equality, before I knew I was, I knew I was queer, I was out as a gay man. That's like one of the two years that I thought I would be gay now. - Were you when you came out as gay? - It was my junior year of high school. So I was 16 when I thought I was gay. And so yeah, the entire year I was taking that health class, I was, and we had like a relationships unit, okay? Where we talked, there was like a project that I failed, where I had to, we had to like build a timeline of our life that included like getting married and having kids. And I didn't use all of the component. - Yeah, you're like, they went that. - I legally couldn't at the time. Like I was like, marriage equality is not a thing. And I failed the assignment 'cause I didn't call it, I know. And I was like, okay, well, I know where the components would go. I just don't, I won't be using them. And yeah, I don't want them, but also I legally couldn't access them at the time. - Yeah, it was a very interesting class. We had one day of a slideshow of STDs that I didn't participate in 'cause I had already passed out in the class once. And so they sent me to the library for STD day. So I didn't have to sit through it. But that's all I had. It was like the fear-based. - Yeah. - I also have a history of sexual assault and that started when I was like 14. And so I already had learned a lot about my body without learning anything about consent or communication around those things. And so yeah, there's an interesting couple of years there of like, my memory is not great of what was going on because I was trying to suppress so much. I also was figuring out identity on top of sexuality and all of those things. And then it wasn't until maybe even after a call it, that I like actually knew what consent was and what that meant and felt it for the first time and was able to give it. - The first time someone asked your consent was after college? - I don't know, I don't, maybe. I think that might be true. Because so much of what we're taught through the media and everything is like, you don't talk about it and you're just supposed to feel it and energy and-- - Right, and it ruins the mood if you talk about it. - Yeah, which I've learned is so not true. - It's so hard, ask for consent, yeah. - Literally, I remember when I was dating girls and I thought I was a straight boy, TBT. I remember I asked a girl if I could kiss her and her friends made fun of me for it. Being like a child is so hard. - I know, and like I was trying consent. - Yeah. - And then that did kind of like shape my understanding of that for so many years. Because I was like, oh, it's not cool to ask people before you put your lips on them, it is. It's very cool. - It's high though, yeah. - Yeah, and that's like, there's so many ways that just like being blunt and just naming what you want. - It's actually so much hotter. - Advocating for better. - Just being like, maybe I'll touch your hand and then maybe you'll think about touching my arm. And like, I hate that. - Yeah, so was there space as you were growing up for you to explore your orientation, identity and expression? (laughing) - Oh my gosh. - I'm sorry, I'm a farm. - I'm a farm. (laughing) - Yes, and no, I talk about it. Like, I had enough wiggle room as a kid that I wasn't like sitting there being like, why does everybody think that I'm a boy? Like, I had enough wiggle room where I was able to kind of be fluid and be very femme and my friend group growing up, we kind of all were pretty gender non-conforming or at least like broke like the standards of the binary. In terms of like sexuality and like orientation, no. Like, it took me a while to understand that what I was experiencing was attraction to men, partially through like media and stuff. Like whoever was named as like the Hawkeye on like TV shows, I was never like personally attracted to, not ever, but like usually not really like into. So I was like, so I'm not attracted to men, but I wasn't attracted to mat leblanc. That doesn't mean I wasn't attracted to men. And so like there wasn't necessarily, I didn't really feel like welcome to explore my orientation. Although nobody really questioned it when I told them I was gay. But also nobody questioned whether or not they should stop calling me a boy. And like that stuff, the gender side of everything did, very much take a little more pushing and like a little more, I don't wanna say convincing 'cause I'm not trying to convince people, but like a little more work to get people to come around to understanding for a myriad of reasons. I mean, this was also over a decade ago and like these conversations weren't as present as they are these days. But I mean, I have two gay brothers. There's three of us and we're all queer, two older brothers who are gay, I'm trans. And so like it wasn't like celebrated when we first like discovered it. - Wait, it wasn't not accepted. - Yeah, and I wasn't existing in a vacuum, you know? Like I wasn't isolated with it. Like so many queer youth are. And that even when we didn't know who we were. - If you look back at our childhood, it's like, oh. - Now it makes sense. Those three queers, yeah. It's like very blatantly there. - So yeah, there's like, I'm very lucky in that I've always had a supportive family. Like I've had problems with my family and I'm queer. And those are two different things. - Yeah. - And I'm lucky that I haven't had as bad of a go as some other folks have had, but I wasn't necessarily like welcome with open arms by everyone around me. - Yeah, and what about your community now? Well, what does that look like? Like the people around you. - Yeah, I mean, my family is still my family. And that's a privilege to say as a trans woman in America. We went on three vacations last year. - Okay. - Like with my family. - That's cute. - Which I, if you told me that at like 18, I'd be like, what? You didn't leave? 'Cause I was like-- - You spent time with them? - Yeah, I was like getting ready to cut ties with them when I was a teenager because I didn't see a future where they embraced me. And so yeah, I have them. I have a wonderful community of trans and non-binary artists who have chosen family. Our colleagues and friends, yeah. And a beautiful network of support and love and honestly like on social media, like I have a community of folks who, I recently made a poll where I was like, why do you follow me? 'Cause I was just like thinking about how I, I always try to be intentional with my content and everything. And one of the options was, I just like you. And I was actually shocked that that caught the most hits. And I was like, oh. - Is it cackle? (laughing) - I was like, let me. But I was like, oh, I actually have a community of people who just like like me and will listen to whatever I wanna say. And that's an amazing thing to have. - That's incredible. - Yeah, I'm very happy. - Most of the content that you share is about dating and I love talking about dating. So what is it like if, well, when you came out as trans, non-binary trans woman, how long was it until you started dating? - Oh, starting was not, we were going through the whole time. - It's interesting because, so my like arc of discovering my identity is also very slow. And so like I said, I thought I was a gay man at 16. By like 19, I was like, oh no, gender's part of the conversation too. And so for most of my early 20s, I was just calling myself non-binary and like other words within that umbrella and mostly dating gay men and having conversations or sleeping with gay men who didn't understand that I wasn't one. And kind of just living a weird like double life when it came to gender. And it wasn't until recent years that I started identifying as and being perceived as a woman. - And that's a different ball field. - 'Cause like, do gay men still reach out to you? - No. - Okay, I mean, so that's the thing. I transitioned into being the problematic white girl who's in love with gay men who will never find me attractive 'cause I still very much find them attractive. And I've like been on like grinder for too long. And I'm not, I actually am not on it right now. It's not on my phone, you can check. But like, I literally would like message men and be like, hi, just checking in case you're not gay. And they'd be like, no, you seem great, sorry, but I'm very gay. And I'd be like, okay, I love you. Like, let me know if you want. - Well, okay, so it's mostly, well, no, it's straight men. And then you get, 'cause I, the things you share, I'm not so obsessed. - So it's, you get a lot of double standard conservative men. They're like publicly fucking trash trans people. And at the same time, literally would do anything to fuck you. - Which any trans girl listening knows exactly that experience, it's not uncommon. - I will say it's not only a straight man that I'm talking to. - I really wanna date a bisexual man because that just, for a lot of reasons, it would be nice to date a queer person like all of this. - Bison are my favorite person. - I know. - And the planet. - And yet, here I am single. - Bison sliding through maybe Birx DMs right now. - They are open. - Like right now. But yeah, it's, there's a very interesting thing that happens when somebody is, and it really, the conversation is usually about men in particular across the board have a hard time respecting people they're attracted to. - Yes. - And that we see especially with cishet men who are attracted to trans women. The public persona of conservatism and transphobia and every other thing that they can be. I won't go on that round. Then also DMing me trying to fuck. - Yeah. - And I'm like, first of all, that's dangerous for me to try, you know? And that is my standards have really shifted now that I'm perceived as a woman. Dating in casual sex is off the table for me, honestly, right now, for a myriad of reasons, not just for how I'm perceived, but especially as a trans woman, there's a literal safety element of not knowing who you're getting intimate with. - Well, you have to worry even more than a cis woman because you're trans, because cis women also give you further safety, but you have to be especially careful. - Yeah, I've had the phrase of post-nut clarity. I've seen it where they regret sleeping with a trans girl immediately, and then that turns violent or just angry or like whatever it is. And that does, it puts me in an unsafe situation, sometimes physically, sometimes emotionally, or both. A man has made a prey with him after once. - No. - And I was like, I, no, I'm busy that day. But I have so much fun. And like, praying is fine, but like, I don't. And like, don't-- - But someone has to pray after fucking you. - Well, you're asking me to, yeah, like where, no. - Wait, so you're dating for a serious relationship at the moment, like that's why you want? - At the moment, I'm dating myself. - Yeah, you just said you're taking a break, actually. - Well, did it last, I took a month off at least. - I'm, I don't want to say lonely, but no, I am a person who's always wanted a someone in my life. And right now, I'm actually not necessarily pursuing something serious, but I am pursuing some ongoing thing. - Something, something. - Yeah, something with substance. I also don't know if I actually want a long-term partner at this point, or at all, I'm starting to think I'm not actually going to find like my person. So I'm like, am I just all fine of a person? - A person, is this a monogamous, what you are trying to find or not really? - I am, I'm monogamish, I say, because I can see a way in which like an open relationship makes sense. But for me, I have tons of friends who are non-monogamous. It just doesn't work in my brain, like for me. - Which is fine. - Right, I'm always just like, if I have tickets to a show, how do I decide who to bring? You know, like whoever's available. - Right, so for me, it's usually like, if I, like I've had situations where we are closed romantically, but open physically, like I can see that kind of a thing working for me. But yeah, when I think about what I actually want, it's a steady monogamous situation. - Which is also, I've noticed, and I don't know if this is necessarily true across the board, but it's like a theory that I have. One of the reasons I don't get to date bisexual men as often, because usually, bi and pan people are also non-monogamous. - That's true. - There is like a lot of overlap, not exclusively, but like there is a lot of overlap between those communities. And I'm like, can one of you just come over here? - Yeah, most of the people I have on our buy and non-monogamous, it's hard to find either or. - Yeah, yeah, I'm like, I'm a very specific person with very specific wants and needs and things that I'm like, compatibility is near impossible in general, and then I have like so many pieces, not even of my identity, just of like my personality and everything that like don't jive with everyone. So yeah, I'm currently in like a, I rotate how many apps are on my phone and everything, and they're currently. - There is off the roster. - Right, you can check, it's not there. It's just, it is, oh, that's my Instagram. Field in Bumble right now, and then my game. - Yeah, usually they see you post a Bumble. - Bumble, yeah, Bumble, Bumble. Because like, the funny thing is when I, and maybe this might be over time or across identities, when I was, 'cause Bumble and like Tinder and those types of apps, you have to put in like your gender and it determines who you see and who they're looking for. And when I would tell those apps, I was a man. Tinder is more geared for dating, or at least at the time was for like gay men, because they have grinder for hookups, and then the straight side of Tinder is hookup. And I was like, whoa. And so Bumble is like, - More dating, geared towards maybe. - Yeah, and so like that. And that is like my whole adulthood, even though, I mean, I was a slut in my twenties proudly. We love sluts here. - I did some shit. - I'm sorry, you're not in your twenties? - Oh no, yeah. - And we'll do that, I look. But I got around a lot, but really I always wanted a relationship and like was kind of pursuing both and all, at all times, you know? I had like a fuck buddy when I used to live uptown who I literally remembered being like, maybe he'll ask me to have dinner afterwards this time. Like I kept being like, and we would like sit in total after, and I'd be like, what if we fell in love? - Okay, so it sounds like you were saying yes to whatever you could get, right? - Yep, that's my twenties. - So now you have more boundaries, you're not allowing for the same kind of treatment? - Yeah, 'cause now, no, I mean, now we talked about like the safety factor is huge, but also what I enjoy is different, and like part of that is maturity, part of that is my transition has shifted a lot about my emotional life and my physical pleasure. And yeah, things that were exciting to me in my twenties just aren't exciting to me anymore, and I'm fine with that. - Talk to me more about your physical pleasure, what do you mean? - Like just being on hormones has shifted how pleasure feels and looks and all of those things, and like what I want out of pleasure. - Wait, so the same thing can feel completely different? - Yeah, like different parts of my body are differently sensitive, and like that has shifted across the board, but also like sex is so much more emotional for me now than it was, and like it always could have that element, but I am realizing like I've never had an anniversary, I've never had like a long-term relationship, my longest relationship was like eight months with a straight man. - No, this was with a gay man while I was out as non-binary, and he was out of town for three of those months, so like we were not, it was not a long relationship. But like I did like have the realization through like discovering new pieces of pleasure and all of that, that like, I don't think I've ever actually made love with somebody, like I don't think I've ever actually like, I think there's pieces of my sexuality I haven't discovered yet, which on one side is so fun. - I mean, yeah, like, and it's like a brand of virginity even though virginity is a really problematic concept, but like something new, a new frontier to explore, the other side of it is your face was like, oh, that's sad. - But like this is heartbreaking. - Yeah, and it's like so many women who like have never achieved an orgasm, but like have had like really passionate moments or whatever, and I'm like, I've had my orgasm, so I'm good. (laughing) - They're great. Literally wrote a book called I Love Orgasms, but I don't have, I haven't had necessarily like, the emotional experience. - Yeah, making love with alcohol. - And that is something that also I think would be so much more rewarding for me now on hormones and in this body and everything. - Yeah, it's very interesting. - Okay, so you are, if you're using Bumble, you're matching how many dates are you going on or when you are actually dating? - I haven't been on a date, months. I can't remember the last date I went on. - Really? - It's really few and far between since I've been perceived as a woman and also I moved during that like shift so like I moved to Philadelphia from New York in the same year that I started being perceived differently and kind of started dating, straight men instead of gay men, and bye. - Well, yeah, I guess the amount of people, the openness of the people in Philly is different than here and here. - Yeah, so part of it, I do like open apps when I'm in New York now because I'm always like, is it straight guys or is it Philly guys? Like, I'm like, what is the difference that I'm feeling? It's straight guys, but there is a smaller pool in Philly. It's also interesting 'cause when I first moved to Philly, 'cause in New York, if you're 10 miles away, you're four hours away, you know, like that's like, yeah. And then I moved to Philly and people were messaging me from like double digits miles away. And I was like, well, no, thank you. And they were like, where the fuck are you from? - It's like the biggest way, yeah. - Right. And like, it is very, it's interesting because Philly, like my dating pool includes like the suburbs and Jersey and other pieces now. - It's like, do I wanna date a guy from Jersey? Probably not, but. - Poor people, poor Jersey-nans. - No, I'm teasing. I'm from Long Island, I have to make fun of Jersey. - Yeah, I get it. But yeah, it's an interesting like, what is the difference? Like, what is the switch? And I don't, I probably could count on both hands the amount of dates I've been on since I moved to Philly, which was three years ago. - And have they been mostly just first dates or have they been sick? - I think I've had one second date. - Okay, and I were the 10 first dates, for example, how many were actually a hookup? Or did you, where you treat your abomination? We're like, no, no, fine. - No, I did. - No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. - Well, when you're not getting a lot of things. - We don't, that's not a lot of options. - You're a horny person, it's fine. - That's, well, that's also, so there's this mentality that I have, and I've been unpacking this a lot for myself that like, I've been conditioned to assume I'm never gonna see this person again because of how frequently I don't, and so I'm like, well, I might as well have sex with you. - Yeah, we're gonna see you again. - Yeah, we're not gonna get to the third date rule, so I might as well just see what your dick looks like. - But would you like to be able to do the third date rule high-cave that option? - I like it in theory, but I also, I'm never having sex when I don't want to anymore. I'm always a willing participant. - But I do like the idea of like, like how many of these people would you have wanted to see longer- - There's one guy who ghosted me. - Who we did see each other multiple times. I gave him COVID, and then we saw each other. - That's lovely. - Because we were the only people we could see. - And then he just like disappeared, but like, he was one that I was just like, did we have sex with him? We made out the first time. - Okay, that's cute. - And I have a good make out. I love sex with him. (laughing) - He asked me to. - Okay, okay, okay. - I unlocked something for that man, but this is where like sometimes like that experience, he, I did unlock something he had never really experienced before, including being with a trans woman for the first time. - And sometimes it is a situation where yes, I do want the third date rule to be something for me. - To be on the table, even if you don't use it. - Because so many, so many guys that I'm seeing are using me as an experiment. And I feel like when I sleep with them on the first date. - They can just check it off their office. - Yeah, and I'm more disposable because they don't actually know me where if I did wait for that third date, it might be a thing that they're experiencing for the first time, but hopefully there would be enough of a like bond and connection that they would stick around. - Yeah, maybe I do need to get stronger on that third date rule or like arbitrary third date, but like until there is like a secure, more secure conversation. - I don't know. - Okay, so can you feel when someone's like fetishizing you? Like, it's that obvious. Like people don't even try to fucking hide it. - 400%. - Yeah, well, the fun thing is words being different things to different people. And I've been noticing that a lot recently. I was talking to this guy whose profile said he was demisexual. And then he was like literally sexting me very quickly. And I was like, "What does demisexual mean to you?" And it was not what it means to me. And I was like, "You should stop using that word." Because I was like, "Oh, great." Like I actually would loft it a demisexual person because it would make me do like at least the three-day rule, you know, where I was like, "Oh, it's kind of like how men have learned therapy speak to like be able to kind of manipulate women." They've also learned like queer terminology and things and don't use it right. - And sometimes it is like with terminology and things. I'll be hooking up with somebody or on a date even and I'll be like, "Oh, you think I'm a man. Oh, that's fun." Just like in how they're talking about things or like whatever it is. And I'm like, "Hmm, check please." Or like trying to like get myself out of that situation. And it's a very startling thing for me because again, safety becomes a part of that. But also just like at this point in my transition, when people may stand to me, I'm like, honestly, I'm like, "That's fascinating to me." Like, okay. But yeah, like the ways that I've seen, luckily I haven't had this experience in person, but I have it in conversation on the apps constantly. I see men who want to be dumbed by me because it is humiliating for a trans woman to take control of you. And I'm like, you would have to pay me so much money for that to line up with my ethics because like just wanting to be dumbed? Sure, like that's a, who doesn't, a lot of people. But like the fact that just because you're a trans makes a humiliating, it's a fucking problem. Exactly, it's like, and sometimes it's not even to dumb you. It's just to be with me is the humiliation tactic. And that's why you probably have seen screenshots on my stories. I have like plenty of filter questions that I have to ask men on apps to learn their politics. And sometimes it's just to see, I do ask men how they describe their sexuality just so I can see if they know terminology. And sometimes they'll be like gender fluid. And I'm like, that's not a sexual orientation. What do you mean? And like figuring out, and that's not to say I can't pursue something with somebody who doesn't have all the terminology down, but how they talk about things tells me a lot and helps me kind of navigate that layer of safety and that layer of like compatibility. So if I think a lot of people are interested or are open in dating trans people, but I think they don't know how to go about it, what is your preferred, or how do you wish people just within difference? Just like, just do it? Like just do it. I'm proud, okay, yeah. You know, just like I squared, okay, you scared. I want to grab my vibrator. Okay, grab your vibrator. Sure, yeah. In difference. Yeah, that's, I do have like a pretty, I have certain, not boundaries, but like I have hesitations around being like the first trans woman you've been with. And that's where like, depending on how you use terminology determines my comfort there. But like, at the end of the day, having sex with me is not hard. (laughs) I'm very easy. But like, you know, the like, again, communicating. The communication and like consent parts are actually really thrilling and fun. And like, I mean, I've also been involved with like other trans people. And like, I remember my first time having sex with a trans guy, I was nervous. I had no idea what was going on. And he took my hand, put it down his pants, and said, I call that my dick. What do you call yours? And I was like, like that was the hottest thing ever. And I'm like, you can make that fun. You can make the exploration. Like, I felt like a teenager again, you know? Like that like. - Giggly, it's you, it's you. - Yeah, I was like, I didn't know that was an option. Like all of the different ways. And it is, it's so funny. Especially with straight guys, like, the amount of like simple shit I can do that they're like, whoa, I've never felt that before. And I'm like, I'm touching your thigh. What the fuck? Like. I'm like, that's not it. Okay, cool. I'm so sorry that nobody has ever touched you before. - But yeah, like the novelty doesn't have to be a scary thing. - No. - And that is, I mean, to going back to like you were saying, like, can I tell when people are fetishizing me? I can also tell based on the way a man touches me in particular, I'm saying a man because it's true. I can tell if they're misdendering me through their hands. - How? - I don't know if I could explain it to you, but like, there are ways that I was touched when people thought I was a man. And there are ways that I'm touched now. And they are different. - That is fascinating. - And like, sometimes it's like where on my body they're going to touch and things, but like there are certain things there are guys that I've been with now that I'm like, oh, that touch doesn't feel safe. Like that doesn't feel, it's not an affirming touch. And yeah, I don't know if I can, it's like a weird superpower that I've built. Similar to how like, when people stare at me in public, I have to like very quickly be like, do you wanna fuck me? Do you wanna kill me? Do you wanna yell at me? Do you wanna do all those things? Like, you know, like that is like a lot of trans people have that like very quick, a lot of marginalized people in general have like a very quick filter system there. And I think maybe I'm wrong sometimes, but like I get a sense from physical touch sometimes. - What do you do? Do you just like leave? Do you try to cut it short? - It depends on the situation. - I'm not very good at leaving. - So 10 minutes ago, I'm so good at enforcing my boundaries. (laughing) - No, well, I'm good at being left, but I'm not good at leaving. (laughing) - The peaks in the audio are, my audio guy's gonna freaking hate me. Sorry. - It's okay. Like, it's hard to leave. It's all hard to be unsafe. - That's what I was saying. Like sometimes leaving is worse. - Makes it worse. - And like the defensiveness and everything. - Yes. - And that's like when I was in my slutty 20s, I would never or almost never have people over because it's a lot easier to run when it's not your apartment. - If you're over, as someone else's, you just leave. - Yeah, you can't run out of your own apartment. - Take someone else, yeah. - 'Cause that's a huge component of it as well. And so yeah, like sometimes it's just a matter of like, okay, let's wrap this up at my clinic or whatever and like finish quickly and get out of the situation. Luckily, I don't have that like regularly in the middle of like actual like deep sex and things. Usually it's like while we're kissing and then I'm like, okay, so we're not gonna do more than kissing, you know, like or something like that. That I'm just like, yeah, I don't know how to verbalize it, but it is. There are, it was like a sixth sense, yeah. - Yeah, and it seems sort of safety too, which is like so sad, you know. - Right, and so like sometimes maybe it is that I'm just like in my head about it, but also if I'm in my head like intuition's a thing and like mine has been not great to me, but like sometimes it's good. - And like there are situations where I'm like, oh, I was proud of myself for not going through with that. So like I do trust that my intuition is working for me. I hope. - Okay, so what are some things you wish everyone kneel? Just like if you had a megaphone and you could speak to everyone for two or five minutes, what would you tell everyone? - About anything? - About anything. - Oh gosh. So Kelly Clarkson, no. (laughing) - In 2002. I mean, you like, what's your message? What should everyone fucking know? - That's such a good question, it's a broad question. So one of my ice breakers on these apps has been having the conversation, I used to do what's your most controversial opinion and I'm currently trying out if you could give a 15 minute presentation on any topic, what would you choose and why? And when I'm asked back, it's also a lot of them don't ask back and I'm like, cool, that tells me enough. - Yeah. But when I'm asked back, I've been saying how the gender binary hurts all of us and is a system of power that is intended to cause harm and that is, I think, relevant to this conversation we're having, it's relevant to so many conversations that like, the ways that we're talking about, how men deal with me based on what gender they're perceiving me as in the moment and all of those things is a system of harm, like it's harming them and their ability to latch on to pleasure with a person that they might not be conditioned to think that they'd find pleasure with or whatever layer of shame comes with all of that. There's so much shame built into the gender binary and the conversations of like who can or should do what or where what or be what and all of those things that I'm just like, what if you just let yourself be? - Yeah, I recently had a guest and I asked her why do you wish people did bless? And she said, man-hating because, and it was, it was powerful 'cause I love to say I hate men, but- - Yeah, I do. - Yeah, but I, she made a point, she's like, they, that's how they're made, you know, like, we should be attacking- - It's the system. - Right, we should be attacking some, or we shouldn't be excluding men from these conversations 'cause like, they need to fucking learn. - And that is like, there are, yeah, we're, I don't. - I'm about to say I don't hate men. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I know. - I was like, I mean, like I quit, but I don't hate men, I hate patriarchy. - Yeah. - And I like men who have investigated their position in that power and I like, I like fucking men. - Do you wish you were a lesbian? - Oh my God, my least favorite thing about me is my attraction to men, are you kidding me? - Okay, so that is, so some trans girls when they medically transition, like being on estrogen actually develops an attraction to women. - Really? - And I was promised that, not promised, like no medical professional promised me, but like my friends were like, you're gonna be gay in six months, and I was waiting for it, and it didn't happen, and I was like, that is transphobic. - Okay. - But yeah, like I, I've tried, and I'm, - You have tried. - I've been with non-binary folks. I like, I'm not exclusively attracted to men. - It's not the same, you love dick. - Usually, not, it's not even dick. - 'Cause it was men? - It was, it was, it was. (laughing) 'Cause if it was dick, I could do the trans girl. I know, yeah. - Yeah, it's, I'm attracted, dare I say, I'm attracted to masculinity. - Yeah, which is funny. - But not latoxically, you know, like the, 'cause like, I date trans guys, I've dated, like it's all men. - I am, it's, it's a brutal thing to, I was like, oh my gosh, I'm I the man. Like, not them, but like the guys I was talking about before that like, don't respect the thing they're attracted to, and here I am, but that's a different conversation, but yeah, like I, and that's the conversation of like, when somebody's attracted to gender or genitals or a combination, and like all of that is an interesting thing, and for me, - It's masculine, yeah. - I'm attracted to men. I don't like men, but I'm attracted to them. - Yeah, that is literally like you were saying what men are like, I didn't know if they're attracted to them. - I know, I know, but like, I'm not killing them. - Yes. (laughing) - Big difference. - He asked me to hit him. (laughing) - Okay, let's talk about kinks. - Oh, let's. - Let's. - So, are you, sounds like you're more submissive. - Yeah. - I, the dom part is out, but no. - What may be sweet? - Yeah. - Depends on the person. - I pursue submission. - Okay. - Do you want to be submissive? - Yes. - My dom side rears its head without warning sometimes. Like, I literally remember a time that like, I didn't like black out, but like, I was like hooking up with somebody, and the next thing I knew, I like, had my thumb in his mouth, and he was like on his knees, and I was like, I don't like it here. (laughing) And I was like, calling him slurs, and I was like, hmm, how am I in this moment? - Okay, great. So, this is so interesting, because you said, well, not the men that find your, you being trans, humiliating, right? But like, how many men, straight men, do you find them like, are obsessed with like, degradation, you're calling them names? - How many aren't? - Yeah. - It's a shorter list. Like, are you kidding? - Hey, no, I'm, I'm not kidding. - I, straight men love to be humiliated. - Okay, so how, what are, let's talk about dirty talk. What are you? - Oh, I'm so bad at dirty talk. - You are? - But, you are on your, on having some of the learnies. - So, my dating profile does say, like most of my profiles right now do you say, some version of like, I've been told that my love language is being mean to people, and guys eat that up. Guys want a girlfriend who's mean to him. Like, that's a thing that also shows up in the bedroom. Like, sometimes not, obviously. But like, I don't know. There's something about making fun of a guy while he's naked that works for him usually. - What are you saying? What are you telling them? - I like, not like making, don't make fun of his genitals. - Right, I was like, are you making energy? - I mean, some, some, some like that. - And like, you can have a conversation about like, if, if they are interested in exploring humiliation, but like, I don't know, I like, made fun of a guy's tattoos, and like, I like said something, and I like, realized he was like, get it, get it, get it, and turned off, and I was like, is that working for you? And he was like, shut up. And I was like, no, you should not be a little idiot. Like, it's. (laughing) - Wait, so in your experience, most of the men you've been with are into you calling them names or making fun of them. - I mean, like, little jabs, yes. Not like, your dad never loved you, which I did say once, and I was like, oh, that's, I'm bad at dirty talking. (laughing) It's like zero to 100 with me. But yeah, like, and that's where like, my politics are kind of like, torn in that, because I never know how much of my identity is in, how good it is for him, you know? But yeah, a lot of guys like being put in their place. - Wow, I feel like most of my experiences in people wanting to hear praise from me, not the remaining. - I've had that. I think most guys think they want that, and are surprised to find how much they enjoy humiliation. And that's, yeah, like I've definitely had it be discovered with me more than I've had it asked for with me. - Right, right, right, right. Yeah, yeah. - I did have a guy asked to be called God once, and I was like, you're not home enough for that. (laughing) - That costs my meat. - Yeah, I was like, get a sex pack and we'll talk. I'm not, I don't believe that a sex pack makes you God, or attractive, even, but I was just like, there's other ways to play out this ego of yours. Click go to Equinox, you'll be fine. You'll be called a God in the showers, I'm sure. But yeah, it's an interesting, and I mean, that's like submission and domination are like, usually a response to somebody's like daily life and like professional life and things, like CEOs love to hire doms. Like that's a well-known thing. That like men who are career-driven and like are in positions of leadership, power, like all of those things like to lose it in the bedroom. - Yes, 100%. - And I like to take it. - Maybe like CEOs. (laughing) So what'd you say? - What's your 401K look like? - What'd you rather get your gay men of your dreams and to be like obsessed with you, you know, do all the things, be your boyfriend, or? - I'm already crying. - I'm fine, you're masculine, straight men, man, that will let you tell him all the nasty little things and take you on cute dates, which for me to prefer. - I want the cute dates. I mean, I respect. - Would being with a gay man also be not affirming for you? - Right, that's what I'm saying. - I respect gay men not being attracted to me. Like that actually makes sense. - Okay, okay, wait. A by man, that is more feminine than masculine. - Oh, I don't mind femme, guys. - But you like masculine, maybe. - Okay, wait, wait. - Look at this. - Yeah, I'm sorry. A by man that, okay, is feminine. He'll fulfill all your fantasies, but he's not monogamous. - Oh. - Or. - Curveball. - Book boyfriend, straight boyfriend, that, you know, will treat you like a princess and spoil you and all the things. - I'm getting spoiled. - You're getting spoiled. (laughing) - The straight guy's monogamous? - Yes. - The straight guy? - Yeah. - Oh, yeah. - Okay, what do you like by guy? What's monogamous? - That's gonna be safer. - Yes. - In general, like, a by, (laughing) how sad is this gonna sound? A by guy's less likely to leave me. - Well, your book boyfriend, your straight book boyfriend wouldn't leave you. Like, he's a friend. - You're like, "There's no trauma here." - Yeah, this is hypothetical. - I mean, given those two situations that if they're both monogamous, I would need to know them. - They're whatever you imagine. But your book boyfriend is more like, you know, this charming, gentle man. And your bi boyfriend is more like pinky and sexual fantasies, you know, all the things. Also a nice person obviously, believe it. - Right, like still, like we can still have the cute dates. No? - Yeah, you can have cute dates, but it's not the same. - So it's a conversation of whether I focus on sex or focus on romance? - Yeah, this is basically a more sex-focused or an emotion. - 'Cause I was getting hung up on their sexualities and not like our sexuality. - Yeah. It's the straight guy. - The straight guy, the book boyfriend. - I would rather, I've also said like, I mentioned before, like I would be interested in dating a demisexual person. I could date an asexual person at this point, definitely. - Yeah. - I just want someone. - The safety, yeah. - Yeah. - So I wanted to be your safe space for the first time. - Oh, God, y'all. - Yeah, I just, I, as like anti-feminist as it sounds, I've always wanted to be known as somebody's partner. Like, I want-- - Because you've never had it. - Yeah, and like, I've always wanted a group of friends where like, I'm the plus one. - Okay, yeah. - Like, I want to be brought into-- - You wanna be shown up. - Yeah, like that's a dynamic that has always been really appealing to me. And I've always like, wanted to be like, oh, who's that? That's maybe Burke, no, oh, who's that? Oh, that's Josh's girlfriend, you know? Like that's-- - Yeah. - That's always been like, just out of reach for me. - Manifesting for you. - If you sing for me, manifesting for me. - Oh, I think he said, "Mind if I sing for you?" - I don't sing him. - I was like, "Go for it, girl." - Yeah, I mean, that is all I've wanted since I was a teenager. And I got close to it in my imagination while hooking up with me. - No, it's just-- - No, I would lie thereafter and be like, wouldn't it be nice if we were out of rest around right now? - Maybe he loves me. - Yeah. - 'Cause just like-- - So when you said come on my chest, what you meant was, never leave me. - Okay, I'm wishing this for you 'cause you wanted so bad. And I think if you are strong enough and you wait for it and you demand it, you'll get it. - And that's what I'm currently, like I'm not pursuing sex outside of romance and I'm not pursuing, I am pursuing potentially a more casual approach to dating, not having every date have to be a marriage material. Like I don't have to be like, "Will my mom like him every time I meet a guy?" But I am not letting myself... I'm not throwing myself around the way that I used to because I'm hooking up randomly and like random casual sex is fine and great, but it's not actually what I wanted and that's when it wasn't great for me that like I was doing it for the wrong reasons and it was like a stopgap too when I actually wanted. And so it's not worth my time at this point if it's not what I actually want. - Yeah, okay, it sounds like you have come to know a few things about yourself today. It was like, "You know what I'm saying, right?" - Yeah, thanks for that. I should pay you after that. - We're in bed together, okay. - Yeah, I haven't done that in years, but... - Okay, where can people find you? - Oh, not on a date. - Not in their relationship. - You can find me at the single aisle. You can find me crying a kudoba over some nachos. My website is maybe perk.com. I'm at believe in maybe a cross social media. I'm on stages sometimes, you know, and I'm places you can find me. - Okay. - And if you listen to all of this and for some reason, I'm dateable, my DMs are open. - They're open. Okay, are you ready to turn up the lights? - Oh, goodness, let's do it. - That's it?