What The Ale?
46. Moab Murders
ghosts, cryptids, murder, conspiracies, beer, what, the ale. Hello, friends. Hello, hello. Welcome back to What the Ale. I'm Alana Ray. And I'm Mama J. And I know we've been on summer break, Mama. So what have you been up to? What any what the ale moments? What are you drinking? What's going on? Well, I was able to visit Beijing, China, and see the great wall, which is on my bucket list. So that was amazing. It is definitely a climb. If anybody goes, it's not easy. But it was beautiful and awesome to see. And then I spent a few weeks in Japan, and I went to juju island, South Korea. So I have seen so many beautiful things. And I'm so grateful to be able to do this kind of trip with my 18 year old before they run off to college. So yeah, my wet the L is probably just a whole lot of gratitude for all the beautiful things I saw. Nice. A lot's exciting. Yeah, how about you? Let's see. I think a good but the ale for me right now is that my work has gone from like, my job is very chill anyway, like I recognize I'm not a person but again, like 15 hours a day and I'm very grateful for that. But my job has been very busy recently because we are conducting interviews for residents and fellows. And so a lot of my life has just been a lot of like very repetitive and tedious like admin tasks and things that are not as fun as like getting to hang out with patients and like doing that type of stuff. So I know I started the job, but I'm like, oh, I want to do fun stuff. Yeah. Yeah, but you know, I'm in New York right now. My kids doing a theater workshop and you get to come join us on Thursday. So we're going to have some fun in New York. Oh yeah, my first official day off since starting this job. Yay! Take off Friday. Yeah, so since I'm in New York, I'm having a border, a black type border from Torch and Crown Brewing here in New York City. And it's delicious and I'm happy to be here and trying something new. Yeah, that's awesome. I actually am also having a New York beer finally in us because I always like to get the Stonewall IPA during the summer from Brooklyn Brewing. So I had a six pack of that so I'm drinking that right now. Yeah. Well, and you and I had done a trip to Acadia and we tried a new brewery in Maine and so that was a lot of fun too. We had to post it and get it up. Yeah, yeah, definitely a lot of fun. We got, we got flights. They had over 100 taps or something, right? The beer menu was multiple pages. So very cool. Yeah, but yeah, that was in Portland, Maine. Oh, and we went to the Cryptozoology Museum, so we got to post a couple pictures of that. Oh yeah, that was awesome. You know, we had close encounters with Bigfoot with mock man. All the cute things they had there. Yeah, yeah, cool. Well, I'm excited to hear your story in a sec. Yeah, so, um, I wanted to cover, um, you know, because we were going to Acadia and everything I wanted to cover a different park that we, not even the park, but just an area that we've been to. Um, so I was going to talk about, um, some murders that happen in Moab. And yeah, and I was wondering if you had heard of Kyle and Cholte or Crystal Turner and what happened to them? I totally have. I know, I feel like this is a pretty, I've definitely, I can't remember details, but like, I know exactly what you're talking about in the sense of I remember it. That's why we drink and morbid covering them. So, oh, really? Okay. Well, and this sad thing for me, which I'm going to bring up later, but you know, there was another, um, incident, you know, where police were called for a different reason. And that got way more national, probably even international coverage and all of that. And this one did not. And so I'll bring that up later. But yeah, I feel like a lot of people don't know about this. And, um, they should because these were two beautiful women and they were a newlywed couple. Um, and what happened to them was just not okay. So, um, uh, so in August, 2021, um, this lovely newlywed couple set off for a camping trip and, um, they never made it back home. They were married just four months before they took this trip. And, um, you know, they had been together for about two years prior to getting married. And when they met, they bonded over their love for nature and the outdoors. They just like loved everything outdoors. They were camping all the time. Um, and I thought this was a cute detail, but they had a rabbit, a pet rabbit named Ruth. And the rabbit would go camping with them and they would set up a little pin for her. And she would just like hang out while they were camping. Um, I love that. I, a pet rabbit. It's not as precious. Yeah. And then, um, the other detail that I thought was very sweet was, and this shows how outdoorsy they were, you know, but they got married in a treehouse in Arkansas. And I'm like, it just seems like that's the perfect place for this couple because of their love for the outdoors. I thought that was very sweet. That's so cute. You know, actually I have been, you know, scrolling through the like OMG section of Airbnb, which is like where you can stay in like a UFO or a hot hole or whatever. And I will say like a good 80% are in the south. Like they're in like the middle of nowhere, Tennessee or in the middle of nowhere, Arkansas. So that doesn't shock me that there's a treehouse you can't get married in. Yeah, no, but I think that'd be fun to stay in a treehouse like as a little getaway. Uh, yeah. No, I, I've definitely been looking. There's this place in, um, a New Hampshire where it's like, and it's like a year that they built or like in a tree. It's in a tree. Oh my gosh, that's very cool. Yeah, it looks pretty cool. I wanna, I wanna maybe stay there. Yeah. So anyways, but I thought that was really cool, you know, because they love the outdoors, the idea of getting married in a treehouse seems very fitting. Um, and then we'll just describe them as being very much in love and, um, and Kylan's dad would even call Crystal his other daughter, you know, so they had like family support and they were both just very loved. Um, now they went missing. Um, the first report was when co-workers were surprised that Crystal was a no show for work on August 15th and 16th for her shift. Um, and she was working at a local McDonald's in Moab. And her co-workers were worried enough that they went ahead and called the Moab city police because that just wasn't like her and they all knew that they were going out on this little camping trip. But, you know, normally they were really good about letting people know where they were. And, you know, I mean, they were responsible people so they wouldn't miss work. Um, so the police did go out to a camping spot that they were known to frequent in the La Salle mountain range. And that's about like two hours from arches. Um, but this is like a huge mountain range that has like tons of hiking trails and, um, campsites. So, you know, they went out and looked, but they didn't see them. They didn't see their cars. Um, so other than that, like initial search, the police really didn't do much, you know, right then. And then there were some locals that arranged small search parties. Um, but they also found nothing. Um, and they started realizing that no one had heard from them. It seems like either the 13th or 14th, but most reports say it was the evening of the 13th that people heard from them last. So they had been missing for a couple of days. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. So that's I mean, I was going to say maybe they'd make any excuse like they're adults and like, they haven't had that like missing person mark, but now it's been a few days. That's, that's good at least. Yeah. So, um, that we're going to get to the other report that was made. So Kyle and family also reported her missing after she missed a day of work. And they spoke to the Grand County Sheriff's office, which is a different department than where Crystal's report was made. And they did what you just said. They told the family that adults are allowed to go missing and they didn't do anything to look into it. Um, they realized that the women had left there, Harvey, Harley Davidson motorcycle parked in town. And the families were sure that even if they did skip town, they wouldn't leave their bike. And, um, of course, they weren't likely to skip town without telling anybody they have good relationships with family and friends. And they were really good about letting people know where they were going to be, just because of safety. Um, right. And, you know, because a lot of that places they would go were kind of off the beaten path. They would always make sure people knew like, you know, in general where they were going to be. And then the other part was these, you know, women, they didn't have a lot of money. You know, one of them worked at a grocery store, one of them worked at McDonald's. So, you know, it's not like they could afford to skip town or take a big trip or something like that. So the families were like, that is not something that they could do or would do. Um, and they even lived in campgrounds because housing was really expensive in Moab. So they had like a converted ban that they set up to be like a camper that they could live in. Um, so, you know, the family was just frustrated because clearly they were not people that were just going to run off. And, um, they decided since they weren't getting help from the police that they would turn to social media for help. And the locals in Moab really stepped up and answered the call. So, I mean, it just seemed like everybody knew them and really loved them. And, um, so Bridget, who was Kylan's aunt, she became like the face of the efforts and she organized the Facebook page and search parties. Um, but, you know, everybody stepped up. People were out searching. Um, and then, you know, but they just weren't having any luck. And then there was the other big story that I mentioned earlier that was happening at the same time that this story was unfolding. Um, and that's because two days before they were reported missing, Brian Laundry and Gabby Petito were stopped by officers at the Moab Police Department. And, you know, so there was some speculation that there could be a connection between the two cases, but of course that was later determined that there was no connection. Um, but yeah, my question was, have you heard of Kylan and Crystal versus have you heard of Brian Laundry and Gabby Petito? And I mean, I've obviously heard of both because I listened to a lot of podcasts. So I actually do remember when this came out because it was like deep in my like COVID world, COVID bubble, I feel like. So I was like very like the Gabby Petito, like, I was like, this is interesting, but then I remember someone posted like, but we're not talking about this one over here. Yeah. I don't remember who it was or where I saw it, but then I was like, what? And so I do remember that people were like, we're not paying attention to that, but we're paying attention to this. And I'm like, again, like, we're not comparing like importance or anything. I just, yeah, it does frustrating the way that some stories get a lot of coverage and others just don't. So, um, but yeah, so Gabby and Brian were like everywhere in the media. And then people actually suspected Brian Laundry might be connected to these murders because on August 12th, the day before Crystal and Kylan went missing. That was where, you know, Brian Laundry was confronted by police for slapping Gabby Petito. And it was in front of Moonflower Community Cooperative in Moab. And that's where Kylan worked. I didn't see anything whether she was there or not, but, but yeah, it was just they were saying that because she worked there and it happened outside the store that maybe there was a connection. But clearly we know how that that's not a thing. I mean, I feel like that definitely shows like how like small the world is though, right? Like, I don't know. It's interesting. But it makes sense like when you were in a small town like Moab, like, I don't know. It's, it's interesting. Yeah. So anyways, um, Kylan and Crystal were last in the night of August 13th at a bar called Woody's Tavern. And that was at about 930. And they were described as like being deeply in love. They were mostly focused on each other and just enjoying the evening. And witnesses said they didn't see anybody like follow them out of the bar or anything. But the women reportedly did tell multiple people that there was a creepy guy near their campsite. And, um, and you know, they were saying that they felt so uncomfortable that they were planning to move campsites the next day. Oh, wow. And it seems like they told some friends about this man and also told Kylan's dad. And it, it was reported that they even kind of jokingly that if people didn't hear from them, they were probably dead. And obviously knowing what happened, that's not a funny joke to make. But they were probably, you know, just trying to make light of the uncomfortable situation with the creepy guy. Yeah. I mean, but I also think that's a normal thing to do. Yeah. We stick those kind of things all the time. Yeah. Like, I always think about people who, you know, they're like, well, they were asking for it because they like spoke that in the universe. I'm like, people like, we don't know. We're not fortune tellers. We can't see. Yeah. But I think people say stuff like that, you know, to joke and like make light of it so that, you know, it just doesn't feel so scary or whatever. You know, but anyways, Cindy Sue Hunter, who is the owner of the grocery store that Kylan worked at, she ended up going out to look for them. Now some accounts say that she reached out to Bridget, Kylan's aunt, and then decided to go search for the women. And other accounts say that Kylan's dad reached out to her and asked her to go look. But either way, she started searching and thought she might have spotted their two cars or one of their two cars, which was a silver kia. Okay. And it was about 15 minutes outside of the Lissal Mountains. So, you know, when she spotted the car, she was either she called the dad or she was already on call with the dad. But, you know, she checked in to see if that was the right car. And he confirmed that it was. And then while she was on the phone with Sean Paul, the dad, she noticed that there was a body near the car. And it sounds like she was like shocked and like hesitated a minute. You know, she's probably processing what she's seeing and figuring out how to say this to the dad. But, you know, she did go ahead and tell him that, you know, she believes that she's looking at Kylan's body. And, you know, I can't even remember, you know, imagine like what Sean Paul was like feeling or thinking at the time. But, you know, he was able to tell Cindy just to get back to her car and call the police and get somewhere safe, you know. And I just think, you know, when you're processing initial shock and grief, and then you're still like, you need to make sure you're safe. I mean, it just sounds like he is a nice person. Yeah, I mean, it sounds like I don't like I can't even imagine, right? Like, yeah, because I totally, you know, I want to know, like, I would want to know when I would want to be involved, but I can't imagine like just being on the phone. Yeah, and like feeling powerless and then, you know, getting that news, I just, yeah, it's so sad. Yeah, and she, you know, she saw Kylan, but she didn't stick around to look for a crystal, but it turns out crystal was close by. And so, you know, she called the police, the police came out and, you know, both women were pretty close to each other. They were discovered undressed from the waist down in a creek really close to their campsite, and they had multiple gunshot wounds to their back sides and chest. No, I will say that I heard some reports that Cindy was in person of interest for a minute. And that's because of how she came across these, you know, the scene, because, you know, it said that as she was driving, she just kind of had like a premonition or a knowing of like where to turn or where to look. And I've heard some reports say that she's it was like her mother that she felt was guiding her other people to say she just kind of had like a sixth sense and a knowing. But you know, because when the police asked her how did you find them, she was like, you know, there was just like this thing telling me I needed to make this turn and look over here. So obviously, they thought that was suspicious, but you know, she was cleared and there was no reason to suspect her. But I think that's a really interesting element that she had, you know, maybe there was some guardian angel guiding her over there so that these women would be found. I mean, I've definitely heard that in a few different cases where they were discovered because someone was like, you know, I know I looked over here, but I didn't check over there, or I, you know, didn't know that, you know, like people are like, they have weird, like not weird, but they have like vibes and they're like, I should go look this way. And I feel like I have that sometimes where I'm like, you know, I'll be walking or something. And I'm like, you know, I'm going to walk this way rather than that way, or I'm going to take this street rather than that street. And sometimes, I mean, I don't know what's lurking down the streets, but like, I don't know, I definitely am a firm believer and trust your gut. Yeah, no, I am too, for sure. So yeah, so I don't know if she just had a gut feeling or if there was something guiding her, but I think that's an interesting element. But it did make her a person of interest. And she is cleared. Glad she's been cleared. Yeah. So the first news released by the Grand County Sheriff's Office. And that was issued on August 19 of 2021. You know, they made it made a big thing about there is no current danger to the public. And you know, the friends and family were like, you know, what the hell, because you know, they were murdered for no reason that we can think of. And you're saying that this is like, you know, nobody else is at risk, but you don't know that you don't know who did this. Nobody's in custody. So the families and friends, they were just like, frustrated because they felt like the statement was just made to protect the tourism industry, because that's like a huge industry in that area. So anyways, they were just frustrated, but and then they feel like they probably thought they were doing what was right to like not cause a mass panic. But I don't think that, you know, is actually helpful when it's yeah, like you said, like they were killed for seemingly no reason. Yeah, it'd be different if it was like, it was a lover's quarrel. And like the husband went off and he didn't know where he was or something. Yeah, but yeah. Yeah, so the murders happened in August, but the families were just frustrated that there wasn't much movement in the case. So in March of 2022, they hired a private investigator. And he just volunteered. So they didn't even hire me volunteered to help with Kylan's case and help the dad, you know, because he was just wanting to know I happened to his daughter. Um, and so the private investigator found that law enforcement had an audio recording from near the crime scene on which gunshots could be heard and screams could be heard. Um, and so, you know, they had that information and it was apparently recorded around 11 35 a.m. on August 14th. So that was the day after they were last seen at the bar. Okay, do you know where or like what like who recorded it? I, you know, it didn't say I think it was just like, um, you know, surveillance cameras that were, um, near enough that they could hear that. Okay, I was gonna say as someone. I mean, I mean, that would be terrible if it was like a family, like taking videos or something or, you know, yeah, you know, it didn't say. I mean, it could have been, but, um, yeah, I'm not sure. Um, but anyways, there were about 20 different persons in the interest that the police were looking at, but one name just kept coming up over and over again. And that's Adam Pinkus Switz. I don't know. I'm just gonna call him Adam. Um, but he was somebody who worked at McDonald's during the time that Crystal was there and some argued that he couldn't be the creepy guy that the two women had told, you know, people about because that Crystal would have recognized him and would have identified him by name. But we have to remember the dates here. They were murdered in August of 21, which was like a pandemic world still. So everybody at McDonald's had to wear masks and they also worked different shifts. So she didn't really know him that well. And, you know, they would like see each other, change of shifts and stuff like that. And so she knew who he was, but always saw him in a mask. Um, so, you know, I mean, it is possible that she wouldn't recognize him or maybe he was just far enough away that she couldn't recognize him. Um, but yeah, I think you asked probably had a lot to do with that. I was gonna say also if someone's being creepy, you're not always thinking about how do I know that person? Like you might be like, oh, I don't like your vibe dude. Like, I'm gonna stay over here. So, um, so the co-worker, you know, some of the co-workers had mentioned to Sean Paul, uh, Kylan's dad that Adam was suspicious and that within days of the murders, um, like he quit his job and he didn't pick up the last paycheck and all of that. Um, but in November, Adam really became a suspect. All thanks to TikTok because a co-worker posted a video where they were called an incident where he would argue with other employees saying he didn't like Crystal. And, um, and I, there were things that said he didn't like Crystal and this other manager because they were both lesbians. And so he would often complain about them being lesbians and make comments about that. And then he also complained that Crystal came in one day, um, on her day off and the manager gave her a free meal. And so he said that was special treatment and again saying it was because they were both lesbians. But I just want to normalize that most of us that have worked in the food service industry, like that's kind of a normal thing that you walk in and you can just get a meal. I mean, every place I ever work drive, anybody I've known that's worked in a place could go in and get a free meal. It's kind of normal. Yeah. I mean, when I worked at the brewery, like a lot of times if I went in on my day off or I stayed after, they'd let me have a free beer, like, well, you got like the shifty beer, but sometimes they'd be like, oh, can I have another and they'd be like, oh, on the house, like, you know, whatever, like, it's not totally normal, you know. Yeah. So I don't think that necessarily shows favoritism or any of that. But even if it did, that's not a reason to kill somebody. So no. And also, if you have a problem with someone being a lesbian, it is 2020. Well, then it was 2021. It is now 2024. Um, lesbians are great. Lesbians could literally, like, fix the world if we let them have power. Um, let's just remember that. Well, and we're going to get to a twist about that in a minute, too. Um, but when the Grand County investigators tried to interview Adam, he had already left Utah, like I said, because, you know, he quit the job in skip town. So they had a hard time tracking him down. Um, and, you know, when they did eventually find where he was, um, you know, I'm going to get to that, but they, they did find somebody in connection with him, you know, when they look through, um, like phone records and all of that stuff. So they found this other person who shall remain nameless, but he confessed that, um, Adam had shared details about the murder with him. Oh, wow. And, you know, so he was able to say, yeah, Adam confessed to me that he did this, and he was able to confirm details that had not been released to the public. So only the investigators or the killer would know. And yeah. So it turns out this man had a romantic relationship with Adam that, you know, so this is, this is internalized homophobia. This is, ma'am, yes ma'am. So, so again, interesting. He had a lot to say about lesbian co-workers, but he was involved in this relationship with this man. Um, he had met that he was queer of any sort of persuasion. I don't think he was out in any way. It doesn't sound like he was, you know, so when this man was found, you know, I just, yeah, I think people were a little bit surprised because he was so homophobic against the lesbian couple. Um, now, you know, at the time of the murders, you know, this man was not involved with Adam and he wasn't even living in Utah at that time. Um, they had broken things off months earlier, but Adam did reach out to him after the murders and gave his confession. And the confession was in person. And so the X was like trying to like look on his phone or whatever. And Adam would like not allow him to do that and take the phone away. Um, and then he, Adam told the X that he shot them because Crystal had been bossy when they worked together at McDonald's. But again, most people say they didn't really work the same shifts and that the main things he would complain about were her being lesbian. So, um, I don't know if she was actually bossy to him or not. But again, not a reason to kill somebody. Yeah, I was going to say, I've definitely had bosses that I didn't get along with. And I never thought, Oh, I'm going to murder you. I thought I'm going to find a new job and leave. Yeah. Well, and then this, this ex-partner said that he didn't become, he didn't come forward because he was afraid of Adam and was like afraid of what he would do to him. That's fair. Yeah, even before the murders, Adam had sent some concerning texts to this partner. So like in March of 2021, this was five months before the murders, he texted, I'm, I'm afraid I'm going, or I'm afraid I have an ongoing impulse me to kill the right people, which I don't know what the right people means. Um, and so, but he would send other things. He sent another one that says, um, I'm afraid I'm going to have an ongoing, ongoing impulse to kill people or rape people. I overworked myself and that's caused me to feel bad and think negative evil thoughts. And this doesn't define me or say who I am. And I can say in another way, redundantly, if I wish I am a free person. So he would like, have these kind of rants where, you know, it's hard to make sense of, but like clearly was having, you know, impulse harm people and, you know, feeling like he was right or that that would free him in some way. Um, yeah, a lot of that, though, we only know because when the police finally figured out where Adam was, um, it turns out that he had taken his own life in a motel in September or on September 24th, 2021. So that was about, you know, a little more than a month after the murders. And so, you know, the, the, you know, that's how they tracked down this ex-lover because, you know, they found all his info in the phone. And when they tracked him down, he didn't realize that Adam had committed suicide. Oh, wow. Okay. So, um, yeah, but he, you know, there was just all kinds of notes that were like threatening and racist remarks and paranoid thoughts. Um, like he would track people's license plates for no reason. And like, you know, just to be like the look of somebody, he would like try to track down the license plates and where they were going and how they were spending the time. And before his death, he had deleted most of the content, content of him living in Moab at all. Um, and he like downloaded an encryption app like within, um, like, you know, a couple of weeks of the murders. So investigators said that a lot of the deleted photographs of him, um, camping and things like that were missing, but they were able to recover some through like memos and screenshots. And then he had also deleted his whole Google history and Facebook account. And his email was encrypted. And, you know, some of it wasn't able to be recovered just because, you know, this was like months later in time had passed. But his notes did mention the area where the homicide have heard that, you know, that he was there. Okay. Um, so again, you know, he had killed himself in September, the police didn't find out until March of the next year. Um, but the Grand County investigators did say there was a suicide note left behind in which he wrote about his firing describing management as lefty liberal bosses. And that they fired him for not working fast enough. But everybody says he just left the job and didn't collect his checks. So he's saying he was fired, but it doesn't seem like he was. Yeah. So and, you know, I want to stress like the ex, you know, I don't blame the ex really, you know, because if you're afraid and he does seem like he was really caught in distortions and kind of scary behavior. Um, you know, and he didn't know that Adam had committed suicide. So he probably thought Adam could come back and, you know, punish him or, you know, retaliate if he went to the police. So I don't blame him for not coming to the police initially. I think that would be scary, but I'm really glad that he was forthcoming when they finally came to him. Um, so, you know, the police do say that if Adam was still alive, they would have enough evidence to secure a conviction. And, um, you know, so I think that gives the family some peace of mind. And at least, you know, at least he's dead. And they know that he can't harm anybody else and all of that. Um, but it's just so sad because it's really just seemed pointless. Like there was no, and I know a lot of these cases, there's no real good reason why these things happen. But, you know, you're clearly a queer person. I don't know gay or bisexual or something, but you're clearly a queer person. And then wanting to, you know, with internalized homophobia, wanting to kill women who are happily just enjoying their life together. It's just so sad. Um, yeah. So, I don't know. I'm just glad that he can't, you know, he's not in a place of being able to hurt anybody else. And yeah, I mean, and it sounds like, you know, I don't know, there was definitely some undiagnosed something, whether it was schizophrenia or, you know, whatever, there was clearly something going on. And it's sad that this, you know, this happened, of course, like, this is tragic. But it's also sad that like, he didn't get help that he could have benefited from and like, you know, before anything happened or even after, like it's, it's all just really sad. Yeah, well, I agree. I mean, this sounds like there is probably a little bit of paranoid schizophrenia or something. And you know, but, you know, don't get me started in our mental health care system because we do not do enough for people that have severe mental illness. But it's just really sad all around. And then, yeah, when you think about the internalized homophobia, I mean, it's just so sad because a lot of people deal with that, you know, in smaller ways, you know, but you can see how, I don't know how much that impacts your psyche. And I don't know. But yeah, this one, it sounds like there was probably some, some undiagnosed things going on. And yeah, it's just so sad that like, wrong place at the wrong time, they just happened to be in the same area that he was. And he targeted them because they were easy targets right at that moment. Yeah, I mean, it, yeah, it's really sad. I, yeah, I don't know. A whole case was so sad. And like you said, it, it was very overshadowed by the Gabby Petito, Petito, however you say it situation, which is also very tragic. Like, I'm not at all trying to minimize her, her case either. Yeah, I'm not at all. The whole thing is just really, really sad, should not have happened. Yeah, so anyways, that's the case. And yeah, I'm just glad he can't hurt anybody else. You know, I mean, whether he's in custody or he's dead, I'm just glad that people are safe. And yeah, for this ex, you know, I'm glad the ex was able to get more details that would clearly connect Adam to the case so that the family, you know, the families could have some peace that yes, this is in fact the person like for sure, because he wouldn't have known those details if Adam hadn't shared it. You know, so I am glad that he was forthcoming with the police when they when they tracked him down. Totally. I mean, it just is. Yeah, but yeah, I don't I don't blame the ex-partner at all. Yeah, it's very scary situation. And if you feel like somebody is unstable or threatening, I mean, I mean, yeah, I think a lot of people don't go to the police out of fear. So, yeah, I mean, I'd be scared to. So, that's understandable. Yeah. Well, anyway, thanks for the story, mom. Yeah. Well, friends, if you like this episode, you could like it and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can follow us on Instagram at @whatheelpod. You could either DM us there, or you could send us an email at @whatheelpod@gmail.com with any sort of story ideas or your own personal stories or anything like that. I think we definitely like engaging with you all, even if it's, you know, something you don't want us to share on the podcast, but you know, something you want to tell us about. That's totally fine. And we also have a Patreon. So, I apologize. My voice is not happy today. We also have a Patreon you could go and follow if you'd like. We do little bonus episodes and things. And outside of that, I just want to say I appreciate you, mama. Appreciate it, too, baby. And we appreciate you, friends. Bye. Bye. Bye. [ Silence ]