Welcome to Big Blend Radio's art show, featuring Victoria Chick, a contemporary figurative artist and early 19th and 20th-century print collector. Today, you know we do this every third Saturday we talk with artist Victoria Chick, and today we're kind of doing a retrospective of articles she has written in Big Blend magazines and even pre-magazine, digital magazine I should say, about artists that are connected to our national parks. Our National Park Service celebrates its anniversary on August 25th, and so we're thinking that August 25th, 1916 is the date it actually became a National Park Service. It had different names beforehand, and what's really cool about today, we're recording just outside Hot Springs National Park, which was actually the very first National Park, but not quite called the National Park. It's a whole other story. But it is actually one of America's very first designated places. We all know Yosemite and Yellowstone became the first, but Hot Springs was there at the beginning, and there's a lot of interesting history back here. But anyway, Victoria is going to be talking about some of the artists she's written about for years, and her stories are going to be featured in a retrospective that we're doing with the National Parks Arts Foundation. As you know, we do a show with them every first Friday, where we get to interview the founder, Tanya Ortega, and also the artists that are artists in residence in parks across America. Go to nationalparksartsfoundation.org, and you will see what we mean. These residencies are incredible. Artists get to spend a month in or just outside a National Park unit, or different parks too, monuments, etc. And they get to really focus on their craft, focused on a project, and that always changes too, because that's what the world of creativity is. "Hey, I've got this idea." And then creativity says, "Oh, you know what? You need to look over here in this corner." So it's really cool. These interviews over the years have been absolutely mind-blowing, amazing eye-opening. They have taken us into archives of national monuments, historic forts. They have taken us to places like Dry Tortugas, the loggerhead key, which is an island that us normal visitors to Dry Tortugas National Park in the Florida Keys cannot go to because of our footprint. You know, there's only certain places we can all go within our national park units, and these artists get to spend time in these amazing places and bring back these stories, whether it is a photography, a painting, a video, a movie. It could be a dance routine. It could be a song. It could be poetry, pottery, ceramics, textile art. You name it. It is open to artists of all mediums, mixed art too. So it's really cool over the years to do this, but the history goes back to the artists who help actually make our national park service be here for us to enjoy. Today we have over 400 national park units. So Victoria Chick, contemporary figurative artist, also an early 19th and 20th century print collector, and the person spearheading a project to create a fine art museum in Silver City, New Mexico, which is called the Southwest Regional Museum of Art and Art Center. So check it out, Southwest-Art-Museum.org is here. And so is Tanya. So welcome back, Victoria, to your podcast here on Big Blend Radio. How are you? Wow, that was quite an introduction. I didn't even read one bit of it, right? Hey, this is cool. Welcome back. How are you? I'm okay. I'm glad to have Donnie here too. Yes, Tanya, welcome back. How are you doing? I am so glad to be here. Doing really good. We're very excited about creating this retrospective digital publication with all these interviews that we've done over eight years with artists in residence. And this is a monthly show. And, you know, Victoria, you've been on our show since we started, and that's been a number of years. And we've really had to go in the archives and actually go, I know you talked about this, right? So it's really cool to have you both on the show because it's a then and now. And Nancy, wouldn't you say between both podcasts with Victoria and Tanya, the National Parks Arts Foundation, that we have learned a whole lot about the history of art, the art of today, and then our national parks and our history, right? Wouldn't you say the art is played a role between both? Well, for sure. I always look at art as the true history because a person took time to get to it. And I look at this as the truth, because you can do what you want with words, not saying there's anything wrong with writing at all because that's what we do. But then you get editors and then things get changed. But once you paint a picture, you painted the picture and it stands for what it is right then and there. Right. I think art, you know, it started on the walls of caves, even if you think that far back, that people had this desire to portray something that they hope somebody else would see and understand. Oh, you just brought us to actually the beginning. We should actually, before we talk about the artists that started painting and proposing, we protect these public lands or make them public lands, we should say, to protect them. And also to recreate in right, let's go back to the artists who are in where the parks are now living their lives and sharing that Victoria, some of your articles over the years have focused on petroglyphs, pueblo pottery. I mean, we got all into that rock art and pictograph spectrophils. I call them newspapers. Right. And I think a lot of parks have newspaper rock where you can go in and go, wow, they were having a full on conversation on this rock, right. And leaving it for us. So we should say that is actually the beginning, wouldn't you think? Yes. Yeah, definitely, definitely. I've been through through through some national parks, like Zion. I remember the first time I saw Zion and I was so blown away with Zion. And I saw the petroglyphs there, which were quite large for most of the petroglyphs that I've seen. And that was the room of my first experience because it was my first experience in the West. And I think my attitude was a lot like the earlier artists of the 19th century who came west because they had heard about things being so fabulous and so spectacular that it brought them out to see for themselves. And so they produced a lot of things. I think of Thomas Moran as being real major, Alfred Beerschatt, oh gosh, Thomas Hill is somebody you don't hear about very much. He was really important. And there was a guy named William Key, but all these people had been born in Europe. They came, they immigrated to the United States, some of them with their families and some of them just came over. And they all went, they all went took a trip west. After they spent time on these coast painting, painting the cat skills and other areas back there. So they were blown away with their pictures, you know, some of them, but they were not playing air painters. They did a lot of sketching, a lot of drawing, a lot of color notation, and then they went back to their studios on the east coast and did their paintings. I guess when I was writing articles for you, I got more interested in their lives. And they were really instrumental in their paintings were so huge. They were trying to, because the west was huge in their minds, and the geography and the geological waterfalls and cliffs and everything, it was just too much to do at a small scale. So, they did these huge paintings, especially when he was a master showman in a way, besides doing a great painter because he put his, like one painting at a time on tour, and he would, people could come and see it for a price, and he would exhibit it in various places. And the people who saw it were instrumental in convincing Congress to form a national park. And so, and the railroads were part of the picture, because the building of the railroads made it possible for people to come west more easily than by covered wagon, or by buck board, or by sailing around the Cape of Good Hope. So, anyway, so it just brought a lot of people wanting to see the west, and wanting to preserve all the places that we really enjoy now. I also think like when you look at Yosemite, and there's a famous story of John Muir and Teddy Roosevelt, and him getting Teddy Roosevelt out, right, and camp under the stars and all of that meantime here's John Muir the vegan, and the, you know, the less of the great white hunters getting together. And at that time, they documented it through photography and art as well, that meeting was documented. And I think that was instrumental too, because it showed the American people, "Hello, here's this." I think that gets, I forget that art documented that. It wasn't just, "Oh, did you know that this happened? Well, we don't know." We don't know if, unless someone was documenting it, right? That's true. Yeah, right. And that is the beauty also. Go ahead, Tonya. Go ahead. No, go ahead, Tonya. I'm wondering if we know. Go ahead. Wait, if we know what? Yeah, you go. Tonya, you go. Yeah, it's really good that we're acknowledging the artists pre-National Park Service that led up to the artists to both the National Park Service and the artists of the National Parks. I mean, it really, because of artists. I mean, I'm sorry, can you hear me? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can go a little bit more, but you're there. So, generally, in the park system, the idea for, and again, we don't know exactly how true this is, but it isn't documented. The idea for the park system, before it was called the park system, was generally attributed to George Catlin. And he's from Pennsylvania. Before that, there was the early environmentalist with the free Niagara movement. And then, of course, there was the Hudson River Valley painters. And among those, like you were saying, from Europe, a lot of people came over to join those groups or to be with those groups, which are, you know, the artists that you mentioned, and were in those groups. And that's what led up to the National Park system. And I have the quote, actually, from Catlin here. And, of course, I'm sure he said something before and after this, so the context is out. But he said, "Some great protecting policy of government in a magnificent park, a nation's park containing man and beast, and all the wildness and freshness of their nature's beauty." So. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. And I've been calling him Catlin all this time, but maybe he's not part of the Jenner clan. So, sorry, not to be caught down. I don't know either. I don't know. But that is one of the articles Victoria wrote about. And we all, the three of us, Nancy, you know, Victoria and I got all enamored by George Catlin because Caitlin Catlin. I mean, really, it wasn't that one of the coolest stories for you to dig up, Victoria. Oh, it was fun. You know, I'm big, they were originally from Missouri and having, you know, I did live in St. Louis, but I went there often enough. So, all the, all the, and I'm barking from St. Louis and I'm in Mississippi, which I have been lucky enough to ride on downstream. I've, you know, I really related to his journey and what he did by painting all the Indian tribes up and down, up and down the Mississippi and going eventually following the Lewis and Clark route up the Missouri. So, I mean, he, at the fact that he, he was a, he was a showman too, in a way. He tried to, except he was only dealing with Indians and in paintings. So, I don't think he reached quite as many people emotionally as maybe some of the laminate painters did. But, but he, but he, what he did was really important. Well, I wanted to say too, James Weir, isn't he instrumental too of the parks in a way because of the plain air painting. And because wasn't he the person that kind of led artists into that, like to kind of understand that you could do it. So, he was kind of like the, like the in-betweener. I'm not sure of all the dates because I'm terrible on dates. But I know that we do have Weir Farm, which is now, I think, a national monument. They changed from being a historic site. And it's one of the, the National Park Service Park units that was established on Halloween, by the way, 1998. That's so cool. Sorry. But we actually did an interview with Kristen Lazard a long time ago, when Victoria did an article on, on Weir. But Victoria, he really did do a lot to help in that way, right, to get, you know, artists outside. And start to really understand the environment, instead of just looking at a picture. Well, yeah. He didn't actually call himself a plain air painter. He called himself, because he was following the impressionist, because he'd go on, he'd taken a trip to France for a little while. And came back and brought impressionism back with him. But basically what he was doing with impressionism was plain air painting. And so he popularized that type of painting. And many other artists then started, because at that time, people were still painting, like they called it realism. But they painted pictures that were regular scenes of people doing ordinary stuff. But it was, the colors tended to be dark, because they used black to mix shadows, make their color gray down. So they quit doing that, and started doing optical mixing. And so people's paintings got brighter, and were easily, more easily seen or looked at from a little bit of a distance, instead of because the colors were more physically mixed, the colors were just right next to each other. So your eye would mix them. It's kind of crazy. But it actually works. I mean, if you look at something from a distance, then you sometimes see a little bit clearer, if you think of it, if you can think of it that way, even though, I mean, it's like, if you look at a paint by number, and they have all the lines drawn out for you with the numbers, they paint this color here, paint that color there. And if you decide you're going to do exactly what you're told, then the painting is very cold and static. But when you get the blending brush out, we are big blend after all. Yeah, exactly. Blend it up. Let's cross borders. Let's do what we're told about to do for fun. And let's experiment. And then you see that the blending in a picture makes it more natural than like a paint when paint by number would look like. I think nature taught the artist, you know, how to actually be part of nature and be part of it. But this is the perfect moment to go into a then and now moment with Tanya and you, Victoria, because Tanya, when we, you know, Victoria's written about how impressionism came and plain air came to the country and, you know, here's these artists transporting art across the country, then photography came and Adam's, you've got all these people, Gaitlin, Catlin, you know, doing all these amazing things. Thomas Moran, all these people are doing things. But if you look at the then and now, this is what is so cool to me. We've started off talking about the indigenous people of our land here and how they left, you know, messages and art in the rocks in the sand and pottery and all these different amazing, beautiful ways jewelry that's found. So two things I've learned about the National Parks Arts Foundation artists, some go in parks like Chaco and rediscover their ancestral roots, or not just rediscover, but like get a deeper connection. Let me put it that way. That's probably, I think Rose Simpson was one recently, Carissa was, is one the poet. So there are people that will go to the park. Yeah, there have been quite a few. Lucky, Carissa, have gone in and their family history, their ancestral roots are opened up further because they literally were taken away. At times, let's think about that. And so then you've got that part. And then when you think about the planar painters, so there's, you know, people like Alice Lease has done that. You've got, you know, Patricia Cummins, you've got all these artists who've done that. Then you have artists coming in going, well, we're going to do something completely different. So I think what's interesting about NPAF and your artists that are part of this residency program, they take things to a different level. I think one of the ones that blew my mind was Nick Collier, when he put on his military uniform and staged his own battle in Gettysburg, he replicated himself there now. And he's been to battle and he like went through the steps and photographs. I mean, that was, do you remember that? That was insanely cool. But he did. Oh, yes. He was wonderful. And the article, the video actually is still on YouTube and stars and stripes. And every time I watch that video, I cry. So every artist has a different plan and a different proposal. And like I've said before, most artists actually go in with their proposal, what they're going to do. And it usually expands into other projects. And it's amazing. Even if they think they're going to do one thing, and especially if they have a special connection with their heritage with the park. That's many parks. That's not just chockos. So it is beautiful to hear these artists talk about and the interviews that you do to hear what happens when they are at these residencies. And then when they have an exhibition at the park or at the Interior Museum who we partner with, it's an incredible connection. In both of those ways. So like the then and now kind of thing, I think the difference with our contemporary times is that there's so many different tools to use. And when you were talking about the illusion, not illusion, the amplification of light in paintings that they used to use, even in Denmark, those old when they would get a light and a magnifying and a mirror. So it did a projection, all these different things. So what I'm saying is with the park service, the history has mostly been two dimensional paintings. But right now we are able to and the park service is very open to learning more about the contemporary tools that we have to express ourselves as artists at these parks. It is interesting. And by the way, I just wanted to throw in two things. Cave paintings we were talking about. I was just reading this morning. They have recently discovered that even in the, oh, what are the ones that Werner Herzlag did in the cave of forgotten dreams, I think it was called the LaSalle Caves in France. They're now discovering that some of those paintings have the celestial bodies in them, but just as a few stars. And they're thinking that that is a significance in what time of year it was, what season it was that the animals came. And another thing that they just discovered, you guys might already know this, is that it was a lot of women that were painting and cave paintings, which I found very interesting. I didn't even know, because I naive, how they could tell. And I guess it's finger length or something like this. But it's very interesting. And the reason I went back to that is because it's kind of like a then and now and then and now, like you can definitely see not just in the styles, but also in the symbolic and even the allusions of subjects in the painting. And with like, Beersstadt and stuff, that's, you know, head go west, you know, and so those were magnificent, you know, the sun coming through the clouds and that. And so we have to, when we're thinking about the history of all this, like we've got to kind of parse out what the popular style was. So it's not just the, you know, the impressionists or the realists or that, it's not just the schools, it's those details that are in those schools. So the details of the cave paintings reminded me, you know, with the celestial bodies of the different styles of art that we are doing today, video and different things. And how we even subconsciously interject symbolism and what's going on, you know, just in our culture. Well, one thing too, I wanted to say we talk about then and now about the women in the caves, when the last interview we did with Chelsea Bighorn, who was your first artist in residence for Saguaro National Park in Tucson. And we had a, you know, it's like we interviewed her as she got there. And then we did a follow up with her and Carissa Lucky Garcia. And she, we talked to her right before she was on her way to Chaco and Chaco is a really deep thing for her. That's in sense ancestral roots. And Carissa has been through a lot. I mean, she is a veteran of war. She's a poet and indigenous poet and just an incredible force of nature, man, seriously. She's amazing. She's amazing. And Chelsea's got Irish and I was thinking of you, Victoria, because you taught us all this history of Celtic art, which goes deep. And here she is going to Saguaro National Park, looking at her indigenous roots and her Celtic roots, right? So this is, I'm like, this is so cool. We've got to put them both on a show together, which is amazing because it's the other thing is National Parks Arts Foundation. And you'll see this in the retrospective of this digital publication coming out is that they've created an artist community. I put up a show, Hey, this artist is coming on everybody that is part of MPF like, Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, support each other. They communicate. There is like a family thing that happens, right? Stan Honda and Andy Jarema actually worked together at one point. Stan Honda is an incredible photographer. Andy is an amazing musician and they ended up working together just on a podcast. It's like, what? And so there's all these things that happened, but it was Carissa and Chelsea who spoke up on the podcast saying that National Parks Arts Foundation. And I think it was also, we had another lady who just did it too. And I don't want to say the wrong name, but they were talking about the fact that your residency program allows women because there has been biased against women because of kids, because if you have the facilities or the lodging for them, like if their kids can come or their family or you understand that women have these different roles. And that women for artists residencies of this nature have not been able to really do it over the years, which I found very interesting and did not know until like recently, and women started telling me on podcasts. So I think that's a whole other thing we need to look at about it then and now, you know, yeah, that's a huge deal. It knows you allow families there, you know, in a residency so all this can keep going with whatever they need to keep going with. That's huge. Absolutely. If we are able to do that, we do it because, I mean, it's just how it has been through history. In fact, what we have done and it's hard to do, though, is we've been able to have housing on private property in parks or outside of the park if the park itself cannot accommodate families or anything that an artist might need. So we do our best to be able to do that and we can't all of the time, but the park service has been really, really good about being really inclusive with women and families. And we know that a lot of women have been lost. They're history as artists in the park and we get emails often that say, don't forget this artist and don't forget that, you know, this artist. And there are people I have never heard of that are in women, usually, that are great artists and are being, you know, their collection is 60 years old at some small, you know, museum and who knows where. And so it's hard to gather them together, but yes, we do our best to do that and I hope we can do better in the future. Victoria doesn't, that's really interesting. I knew. Yeah, that's really interesting because when I started collecting prints or graphic work by artists that were done in the 19th century and the early 20th century, there were lots and lots of artists. But I didn't pick them out because they were who they were because I didn't know where they were, but I just responded to their images and I really liked them. And I researched them after I retired and discovered that they were really well known in their day, but they just got lost in history. So I think it's really important to maintain their, their ability to be seen and let the current people that make their make their judgement, let their effects down. Exactly, I could say it's especially important for our youth, for young girls to be able to see that you can and you can do something that you want to do. And you can make it happen. You just got to have the wherewithal, the guts to do it and the stamina and not give up. I think it's because when you do look back in history and you do see most of the paintings were done by men that are available easily for us to see. And so I think it's important that we take that step and always make sure that women are included so that young women don't feel like it's impossible. There are women who are involved in our parks, who have done things. I want to go back to Victoria on Lillian Wilham Smith and I want to personally have to give a shout out to Susan Priscilla. I bring her up every, every year during Women's History Month, but no, it's not the Sock Monkey Priscilla or Sock Monkey, but I want to say she's named after her. No, well, the Sequoia National Parks Kings Canyon were some of our first parks and I love your parks tours. We travel full time doing this. We've got over 2,000 parks that we've done at this point in this country and that's not counting Africa and all that, but Susan Priscilla through back in the day. I think this was, I think we were still at General Grant or Grant's National Park when Kings Canyon was named after Grant. And she went out on a meal on her horse on her own photographing and went out into what is the wilderness areas of Sequoia National Park and photographed as a photographer on her own back in the day. We're done jazz era style like goes off, single woman off and the, you know, she was married at a time. I think her husband didn't do what she did. She went off, photographed all of this, came back, went to Congress and that's how they expanded Sequoia National Park and General Grant's area. She also inspired Ansel Adams and it was him because she needed a man to do a little purple stamp kind of thing. So she, I'm not telling the story properly. So, by the way, people will put that link in the episode notes too. What she did was help expand these parks of what we have now. The Wilderness Act, I think, is over 50 years old now and that wilderness would not be there if it was not for her, a woman on horseback riding that area by herself. I think that is art, what she did and she rarely gets talked about. There are a lot of women in parks who just, I think the park system is working really hard right now to really document our women's history as a whole, but in the arts. It's really hard to find Victoria have done really well, but, Lillian, Lillian, she did something in our parks out of, we've been talking about so many men, I feel like we need to give her a shout out. Don't tell me Lillian's a man. Lillian, now wait a second, Lillian, Lillian wouldn't have gone there initially, except she was the sister-in-law of Zane Gray. She met Zane Gray in New York and he took her to Madison Square Garden to see the Buffalo Bill Wild West show. She got so enthusiastic that he invited her to come. She started drawing right there in Madison Square Garden, so he decided he asked her to accompany him to the Navajo reservation because he's about to write a novel about that area. She went with them, she had never been on a horse before. They got off the train, probably at Lammy, because I don't think it went any farther, and then they had to ride horseback 100 miles to the area of the Navajo reservation where they were supposed to go, she'd never been on a horse before. The guy who had the back team felt sorry for her and he did everything he could preserve her skin. But anyway, she blasted through that trip, she did very well, she went back to New York and she was so bored that she couldn't say that she eventually moved in the 1920s, she moved to the Phoenix area. I can't imagine living in Phoenix in 1920 with no air conditioning, but she was a tough lady obviously. That's cool. That's way cool. That is amazing, Victoria, when you think about a woman going through that. I think that's what people forget about what women were wearing back then and going through the elements. Now we can play my air conditionings off. She had to wear a bustle when you rode a horse. We claim about the humidity being a little high. She was an illustrator, she did that kind of work. A lot of women did. Do you think being an illustrator that a lot of times men overshadowed them in that work and I did it if they were part of the publication? As far as knowing about people, yes, I think that happened because art history was set up the way it was. The initial setting up, set the pattern for women to be ignored really initially. But it doesn't mean that everybody ignored them at the time they were done, that they were working because there were lots and lots of women that were respected artists that we never hear of anymore. I mean, their work was an art show that of course really early, there were no art museums in this country really early. So look at what you're doing. I mean, so the Fine Art Museum is not an easy task and you're a woman in art. So, I think the country is catching up with honoring people's talent no matter what the gender they are or what era. Because we're going back and we're picking up people that should be remembered. There's lots of women artists today that were encouraging art in the parks is one way and it's all important. I want to go back to the Civil War because this is the other thing about the National Park Service that we forget about, that they are keepers of history, interpreters of history. And artists that go there, Tanya, the Gettysburg run that you had, which was a long run of artists being there doing documents. I remember when you first came on a show, there was an artist who did the ghost trees moving, ghost trees of Gettysburg. Do you remember that? Oh, yes. I remember watching that. Oh, wow. Like, I'm trying to remember who that was. So what has happened with the Gettysburg program, that program got so popular right now, we are just figuring out funding for it. That program really, really was and is still important. And it brought in about the hiatus now, we'll see how it did it brought in poetry and all kinds of things. And then when we also think about the Civil War, even at Fort Union, we just got the glory at a pass was there. That was a battle. It's amazing. It's amazing if you go back to the, a lot of artists there and it's not even though Gettysburg is one of the bigger monuments that we have. It's all over the nation. Yes. And that's what I was going to say, like you've got your artist contemporary now in these sites, right? Even, you know, even Big Bend, you did a lot of Big Bend and artists that you did veteran programs too over the years. And things always change. I mean, we've also had COVID in the middle of this stuff. You know, that really changed what happened in art. Tony was like, "Holy cow, we can't have a program." I'm like, "Well, we'll just put people on shows. Let's keep going." You know, "We'll just do whatever we can." You know, "Let's just keep going." You know, it's been, well, and the world has been wonky. We've had all kinds of changes in our country and the world. And so it'll always change and the art changes with it and tells the stories. And the Civil War is one of them. And you think about the timeline of the Civil War when the Civil War happened, right? And how, like, the timing of the National Park Service wasn't that long after. You think the Civil War went from 1861 through 1865. Our National Park Service came in at 1916. All right, in between then, the artists were going to Yosemite. What Victoria, I believe it was between 1872 to 1922, I think you were telling me the history of that? 1871 all the way through. Yeah, yeah, bearish at, bearish at was the one. I mean, he made many, many trips to Yellowstone, but to other parks or other mountains and stuff. And so he traveled many times between those dates. And then at the Civil War time, here it was. On this going in and being even part of a battle, painting the battle, one of the recent conversations we had was about painters. Felipeto Felipito. Felipeto asked me to pronounce anything on this show. But they did the... You're doing okay. The cyclorama at Gettysburg, you know, so I got to think about this history part because I think that this father and son were innovators in art and changed the landscape literally, right, in what they did with these cycloramas. And that lends itself to talk about this discussion of history of art in parks because Civil War history is captured within the park site, protecting these battlefields, right? So we go there. We get to learn about battles and things that we don't want to see, but need to understand because history, you know, repeats, repeat that cycle over and over, but you go there. People paint it. So part of, you know, the park services, you know, protected this, which is a piece of art that happened back in the day. And then you've got artists like Tanya's artists going in, the National Parks Arts Foundation, Artisan residents going in there. It's like, to me, look at the shift of change. Going from plain air painters to cycloramas to poets. You've got dancers going off. If Tanya's like, remember, you know, Anthony going in there, Anthony Green going in and doing interpretive dance and poetry and all of this amazing stuff. But in the middle of all of these changes is this cyclorama, which is an insanity project. Like how did that happen? And more than two people worked on it too. So like, that's a whole, that's wild to me. I still can't get past that. And I'm mad that I didn't see it and see what we were there. We'll go back. We'll go back. No. Yeah. The history of cycloramas is pretty interesting too. There was, and this is what I mean by even though there are these schools of art, the details within those schools, which would be the cyclorama. Those are the things that, you know, we can, we can mark time with and go, oh, okay. During the Civil War, beginning of photography, that wasn't really popular yet. So painting was still happening. And then cycloramas hit the scene. And then, you know, the one at Gettysburg is just amazing. You can look at it forever. And, you know, and then other artists started doing that too. And then that kind of dropped off a little bit for photography. But it is an incredible history with the cycloramas in Victoria. You probably know all about that. Well, I find it really interesting. The two, the father and son that painted the one that I'm familiar with. And that one has been moved several times. I read, I've read. And I think, I think, most of them really interesting to do at the time because when they were doing it, it wasn't that many years passed the Civil War, the end of the Civil War. And I think that there was the feelings around deep, I'm sure, still, at that time. And so people were interested because it was such a new thing. Nobody had ever seen a cyclorama before. And besides those guys doing the layout and the painting, and they were using photography as a tool to get the joins correctly in the pictures that they were doing. It could help positions so that they would all go eventually together. And as people looked at them in a circular form. So that was really groundbreaking for them to do that. So, I mean, so in a way, I guess the Park Service didn't commission that because it wasn't there yet. The Park Service was there some sky in Illinois, I think, commissioned it. He wanted it in a silo, you know he did. He wanted it in a silo. He had agricultural roots, I guess, you know. But I think that somebody would be that innovative, you know, who wasn't even an artist. He conceived this thing in the round. And how spectacular it would be in case people would see things that way. And of course, these guys had a history of doing that. They didn't invent, they didn't exactly invent it, but they were masters at it in Europe before they came to the United States. So, and I think it's really great that the Park Service, the Park Service took it over. I think that's wonderful. Because it wasn't, I mean, there were several versions of it, actually. Because some of them would go into, into ruin. In fact, one of them, I think one of them, they're the third one they did. If I remember right, remember right, that the canvas that was involved got given to the Indians. And I think it on Iowa, I'm not sure. And we would use for make teepees. So. Yeah. I could go paint a teepee. Yeah. That is so cool. So these, these things have a history. Even recycled have a history. Right. And, but then there were also all these artists who painted the Civil War and were part of that. And, you know, you think about like these time marks and that's what the National Park Service has. And now, like this then and now of artists going there, rediscovering roots and deepening their roots with their family and ancestral connections. To hey, I see something completely new and different. And I record, you know, hermit crabs under the water. You know, then you've got people like Alice Lease, who's a cattle renter in West Texas, going all over the place. And her art is amazing. You got, you know, a veteran chip back chip back. We can't talk about. Oh, yeah. I get back. I mean, come on. He, he, he's a veteran in, in so many ways. His, he should have a book out about him. He really should have a memoir. What do you think, Tony? He should. You know, there's, I think there should be. It seems that they're already, that should already be out there. Yeah. It seems like it should already be written. Yeah, part of this character artist, you've got like, I look at all these different modes in the cycloramas. It's in the middle of it all. That's how I look at it. And then you've got people like William, William Henry Jackson, an amazing photographer. His story is incredible. You know, and so he was, he was amazing. We can't not mention him on this show. We have to. Well, you know, humans. I mean, he inspired Congress. Oh, well, yes. Okay. Wait, Victoria, you go first on William Henry Jackson. Victoria, did you hear me? Okay. Yeah. No, I'm sorry. Um, I, I didn't hear you at first. Um, yes. He was, he was inspired, um, Congress, you know, was one of the, one of the direct, uh, direct people who contacted and they used this photograph. I mean, he was an amazing photographer. He, he was doing it. He was doing it with a horse drawn wagon at first. And, um, Wow. Oh, Billy. Uh, I think he's interesting because suddenly did he do that and he, after he lived to be a ripe old age, I think he was 99. I'm not sure. But when he died, but up to that, when he was seven in his 70s, he started a new career and that was, he took up painting, which he had never done before. And he became very successful. And, um, is it such love? I think National Monument that has a wing where all his paintings have been placed. So that is cool. I mean, he, he had felt in two meetings, uh, about, and they were really, um, very different from one from the other. And he was successful at both. So. I found it interesting that he went from photography to painting and a ton. Yeah. Would you ever do that? I mean, have you learned to paint? I think I remember one show you coming on one podcast saying you're starting to learn how to paint. Oh, well, um, most recently I've been trying watercolor painting, which, uh, for me is the hardest medium that I have ever worked with. That is so cool. Oh, boy. Yeah. It's called a happy accident. Yeah. Let me just pour my water right on top of it. That would be very little control compared to like oil painting or pen and ink or charcoal or pencil drawing. The paint just runs where it wants to. Yeah. However, I've seen Nancy work a palette knife like you wouldn't believe. She's like here, I will give you cake. Here's your icing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've seen you do that. Let me just cut it up on the canvas. I mean, it's pretty. It's like it is like, yeah, I see your face up on the palette knife on the campus. Like here, here's your portrait. Oh, I mean, I don't care. No, the panel knife thing is. Yeah. I just have to throw this in before I forget the interior museum. So the Department of Interior has a museum, the interior museum who has a lot of the works. And when the interior museum, I think if memory serves, when they were opening, they went to William Henry Jackson. And I think he did four paintings of the surveys of the American West. Yes. Yes. So those are, I think they are still unless they're on tour. I think it might even be a virtual tour still in the interior museum. I know I've mentioned them twice, but, but it is. I'm pretty sure that they're there right now. Yeah. People should check it out because his work is phenomenal. And he, I mean, it is. I want to go to one thing we haven't discussed. And this is interesting because I think it showcases. When tourism illustrations became kind of an art form. Like if you think about Route 66 and neon signs, like, you know, we're doing this whole project with the Jefferson highway. I mean, there's, you know, roadside monuments and oddities and weird things to see on the side. Come on, it's fun, right? We want to go see the weird things and the interesting things like the thing between Tucson and. In New Mexico. The thing. Gotta go see the mummy. Go to the thing. Yes. Oh, God. Yes. Yeah. Everybody must go to the thing. So there's those, but I think there's this, this history of. Travel in our country that is very interesting and how illustration is part of it. How tourism guides were created and just there's something really cool about the old school way. It's like, I'm a fan of Mad Magazine because of the art. Because of the, because it's funny, you know, and it's clever. And yeah, you, Victoria, you and I are of the same cloth of all of that stuff. And I am. Well, you know, what, what you're saying reminds me that, that we did a, we did a, a article on posters. And most of them, most of them were posters that were done, earliest ones were done by. The trail, the railroads, because they were trying, you know, because of the national parks. Now they were trying to really promote travel because people had something to see. That would be spectacular. And so the early post is really good. And then the ones that were done in, I will like, like the article forces in the 1930s. I mean, those were fabulous, fabulous posters. And, well, the, um, I'm even thinking about it. I mean, we can't forget the Fred Harvey in, in this either with the railroad. So, yeah. Oh, yeah. The Harvey's gone. He's been easy to travel. Yeah. Yeah. Sure did. There's some guy now who came along later that was reproducing those posters. I think he was, he was, he was called Ranger Dan or somebody, but, but he, he, he was, he was doing later versions, which were really, really nice. And there's other companies now. I mean, now people are trying to replicate that same vibe. And it's even when you think about the signs when you go into parks, like the old lodges and the way it was the old wood signs. You guys, Tonya, you know that is, you know, write those old, large kind of looks. Yeah. Like you're here now. I think there's art in that too. About the signage. Yeah. The posters went with it. There was a vibe. It's, it's, it's really interesting because, um, when we think of the National Park Service interpretation and signage before the Italian illustrator was hired by the National Park Service. Oh gosh, I can't remember his name right now. Um, but there was a point in the park service where all of that was, was standardized because they hired a famous, I should probably Google it before I open my mouth. Oh, that sounded interesting. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm trying to keep up with you here. You mentioned that. I think that I have never heard of. So I've got the computer and I apologize. Oh, no, I thought it was someone's Alexa going off there or whatever. That's what it was. Yeah. It was. Well, back to the, the question of where is the, you know, when did the illustration become art and when, you know, I think now we can all agree since the discussion was a hundred years ago about, um, you know, illustration is an art, but for a lot of people, it still is. Where are you coming at the art from? Are you, is there a goal? Are you selling something or are you saying this is an artwork in and unto itself? Um, you know, and so a lot of these famous painters also did illustration. Even Georgia O'Keefe did illustration. Um, so you, when you think, when you, when you think of that, but especially with the park service when, and, and please, if you're on the computer, please look up who this, who this person was that they hired and it was very good. But now we're kind of in the curve with the park service going back to, um, the legacy of the look before that, um, before that was standardized. And I can't even remember if it was in the 50s or 70s right now. But, um, the, the park service with their interpretation. No, Rob Decker. We interviewed him. I can't remember. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to. Yeah. Okay. Keep going. Sorry. Um, yeah. Oh, no, I'm trying to, I'm just trying to remember this, this, um, this artist's name. But there, there is, this is real. I mean, artists and even still from Europe, especially, there is a very different. Um, yes, definitely thought process about the arts. So all of these, the artists that came out for all of those different schools of arts that, that were reflecting nature in the parks or what were to become the parks. Still, we're kind of leaning on Europe a little bit for those, those kinds of things. But it is an interesting question. When did the illustration become art? Was it art in the first place or because it had a theme and it was selling something? Um, where is that? And then with the parks, you do get Fred Harvey. And then you're into the front buildings which moved to Mary Colter. You did? Who is it? Who is it? You found it? Um, Mayor Fiorelli LaGuardia's favorite project. I don't know. That was a mayor, but, um, there, it was Ranger Doug, by the way, Victoria Ranger Doug. I got that. Um, but there was this whole program. I mean, the poster division and it, but it was started by a mayor Fiorello. So LaGuardia's like, it was a group by that name. Um, the post, there's a, there were a poster divisions. They're like, this is a whole like business kind of deal. That's a whole history. That's a whole other thing. It's all. Yeah. That's one collection, but it was Ranger Doug, but there were original WPA posters is what they, there was. Yeah, people are reproducing it now. So it's really hard. So people come up, thanks to Google and AI of people of today. So I, I'm trying to get past the today stuff. Rob Decker does a good job. Um, he was on our show with his, his, um, posters. He's, he's good, but trying to find your Italian dude is not easy. Yeah, I think I, I think I found him. I did type in Italian, Massimo Vinelli. Oh, well, that sounds nice. I like it. Not related. I think, I think, uh, Massimo Vinelli. Oh, wow. So, um, I'm just, I'm just googling right now. So I'm going to put his, you know, maybe. It seems like, well, I mean, we're just talking about when did, when did posters become harder? When did illustration become, become art? And I think it always has been, but it hasn't always been perceived as. Oh gosh, that's something you want to hang in your home. You, you see it and you like it, but you say that's a nice poster. And it's always good as advertising. Except, yeah. Well, it's communication. Like, like, it's more blatant communication than other kind of pictures. But, but I think, I think the, the National Park posters are in a special category because, because they capture the imagination of the people going to see them. And they can't, maybe they can't afford a, you know, a picture. They, they take a, they take a photograph, but, but they put an album. So they got, you know, they don't make a blow up of it. They, they want something that, that reminds them of their trip and they wind up buying a poster. And, and those, I mean, because, because it speaks to them. People collect things of their park experiences. That's why the, the, the stamping of your passport. And they collect them t-shirts, all of it. It's, it's memorabilia. Yeah. People collect the brochures when you go in. They collect them. I know people have made their brochures. Like, they've gone all 63 parks and made it into a, you know, a coffee table thing. You know, it's a big coffee table. You know, they do things. And I, I love that. I think, you know, that's your memories. And in your, you know, I mean, Nancy and I travel full time. We can't do any of that fun stuff. It's all digital now, which, it, which kind of, you know, it's great. But that's, you know, look at the progression of what is. I mean, back in the day when they were traveling, they couldn't take a bunch of stuff either. You know, it's, it's a very interesting thing. And it's interesting to see the artists now because now temporary art is part of the world now too, which is really fascinating to me about here. You see this art and it's gone the next few days gone. And that's like a hard thing for me because I want to see it again. You know, it's like really good wine. And then the wine is gone. And then you're like upset because now the wine's gone and it's a new vintage. Maybe better. It may not. But like you want to, I'm still chasing a certain mole in Mexico. I cannot get it back. And that is the power of art. Right? Because no matter what, there is a form of temporary with art. It's like, you can't look at it all day and keep having that same feeling. You know, but it is, it's powerful. And the fact that there's still art in this. Great. Yeah. It's all even, you know. Go ahead. Go ahead. I was going to say, even when you, when you're sure it said, you experience it and you look at it. And you look at it again sometime later. Now you're going to have a different experience. It's maybe not going to be quite the way you saw it the first time because you had different experiences in the meantime. And you've been, you're relating to it differently. Yes. That's exactly Nancy. Go ahead. And we can't see each other. So just so you know, sorry, we're not interacting on purpose. So even if you think before photography. Somebody sat down one day and, you know, discovered a pencil and paper. Decided to draw or they were in a cave and they found out how to make paint. They had a desire to leave something somewhere for others to see. And it's lasted for so many centuries of people that have a desire to produce something for other people to either hear or read or see. And, you know, for, for art to still be as important now as back then. You know, gaining and gaining and gaining and important. This is a form of communication that pretty much sacred doesn't take in everybody. Because some people don't see, but then they could probably hear music. When you look at art and you look at music and you look at writing. Those three things take in almost everybody. Right. I want to go back to Tanya too. She was some of Massimo Vignelli. Vignelli, he did the brochures for when he went in. He did the art on the brochures, which is different than the posters that you were buying for your home. A little bit different, but they said, I think they both have been merged at times throughout history, Tanya. I think you just sent me a link and everyone will be linked in the episode notes. But, Tanya, isn't that he did both, right? Or did he do like that? Yes, and he did both. He was hired by our government to set the standards for the National Park Service by, for lack of a better term again, marrying the illustrative side and the standards for illustration, which means measurements and those different things with the artwork itself. So, he brought those two things together for us, which I think is a really hard job, by the way. I agree. I can't even imagine. And he just passed away in 2014. So, I think he must have been hired in the late '60s or '70s. I can't remember and I'm not looking at the computer anymore about it. Yeah, and the standards for her to communicate for interpretation in the parks is important, because they have to find the common denominator. Yeah, that's the thing about their interpretation. I always said their interpretation is not biased, right? It's like this has to go to the general public, it's not biased. The fact is, this is the fact, this is this. And so, when it comes to art, that's an interesting thing to be able to do. It's not opinionated as such, right? It's not like, "Oh, I like this." So, it's really, I think what you do, Tanya, dealing with the National Park Service and artists and the park services, is what we have to do, because we represent America, right? And here comes the artist going, "I want to do this, this, this." You're like, "That's really cool, and I don't know if that's going to fly, but I'll try and do this." You know what I mean? What you do is incredible to balance it all out and make artists happy. And I think it is just, it's amazing when we've talked about this today, how art has just changed through the ages. I think that's the bigger conversation today and how our parks are connected, whether an artist is painting a civil war scene, or, you know, an artist was doing a poster to represent a park, but this is going to be, it's like creating a posted stamp. Here, this is going to represent it to all the masses, one image. Holy cow, I don't want to be tasked with that. Are you kidding me? That's insane. This is like doing the front cover of a magazine, right? Oh, this front cover has to represent everything in there. That's the worst part of being in our industry, right? Is trying to do the front cover. Don't you think? It's difficult. I have. It's a personal, your personality comes into the choices that you make. Yeah, that's hard. So, we do all have biases, and even though we're not supposed to, we probably, I mean, I can only speak for myself, but I have biases that I don't even know are there, so I would, if I was, you know, having to do a layout like that, I certainly would not even know I was doing it and have biases and need something, need the signature on the lower right-hand corner. You know, like that, that kind of thing. So, I have something pretty exciting to tell you that I just want to throw in here. So, Sean McLeod, who is with the New York, I'm sorry, New York Institute of Dance and Education, and Shiswan Yang, an artist who you have interviewed, they are putting a project together. So, I just wanted to throw that in, that even, and they're from different sides of the world, that these being inspired by the parks, and these artists coming together, and you're absolutely right, like the artists that, you know, we've been able to sponsor and host at the parks, and even people on our advisory boards, and all kinds of, they are coming together and they are creating their own magnificent works. I can't even catch up with them, I really can't, because they're making those connections among each other, the National Park Arts Foundation, and we can even catch up. On social media, I'm always saying you're like posting shows with people doing this. I mean, we did the, oh, was it the Arctic or the Antarctica group? Come on, like, and Michelle was part of it. Great! I don't remember which poll it was, but it was cold. And they're together, and I'm going, look at all these people pairing up together all through this, the NPAF, you know. And I think that's amazing, too, because it's just, just science has been part of it, and reading, you know, the ice melting and artists making music out of it. I'm like, how, what? Okay, this is cool. You know, I love that part of how big the arts have become through technology, through instruments, through, like, actual tools, like we were talking about in the beginning. You know, paint has changed. You went from oil to acrylics. Photography has changed from, you know, now we're digital. You know, all of that stuff, you know, is absolutely amazing. So I think the tools have changed, but what else has changed are the venues. And so what Victoria is doing is so important because with all of these new tools, new media is created, and by media I mean artistic media, I don't mean the press. Artistic media is created, and even tools with just two-dimensional painters. So Victoria putting this museum together gives a venue. That is another step in the process of being able to express our inspiration of nature, whatever our inspiration is. If it weren't for people like Victoria, artists would not have a place to be able to have an audience. I agree. Well, it's very important. It's very important to you. It's hard. What Victoria is doing and rallying people together and people supporting and doing. I mean, it's a team and, you know, Victoria, I mean, you've been working on this for a while. It's a big deal, and you're representing the region too, right? Yeah, because we are in an area, well, it's, I mean, I don't like to use the word wilderness because it's not that, but it is extremely rural. And southwestern Mexico is way different than the Santa Fe area. It has its own kind of beauty and lifestyle and attitudes. So, where art was started very early in the Santa Fe area because people came there, artists came there because they'd heard about it. We are starting from a place of no art. We have lots of artists and lots of galleries. We just don't have a museum. And I just think that's really important for us to know the history because there's so much to express. So our museum is not Southwest art in content. It is Southwest art because of where a museum is. And we are specializing in American art. And we chose that simply, and by American I mean any artist that worked in this continent. So it ranges from Native American art to any artist who's come here and created a vision of what they've seen. So whatever media they use and we are grateful for people giving us really good examples of visual art. In closing, you know, with Victoria, what she is doing with the Southwest Regional Museum of Art and Art Center in Silver City. Everyone check it out, Southwest-Art-Museum.org, Lincoln show notes. I wanted to go back to Tanya on this because, you know, Silver City is this wonderful art community. But it's like when you have a fine art museum open up, it is like we're getting real now as being an art destination, being an art community and art city. So Tanya, is that the same kind of thing for artists in residence with the National Park Service? Because sometimes our art also ends up being part of the archives and part of museums, right? So is that kind of that same kind of, yeah, for everybody when that happens? Yeah, I mean, it ultimately is the business side of art. And it is the, if it is the artist's intention, which we have to take into consideration when accepting, you know, artists and museums or what the intention of the artist is. If it weren't for the museums, there wouldn't be a hub to actually see the work in person. And I think that that is still very important. And if it weren't for museums like Victoria has, then artists wouldn't have anywhere to do that. And right now it is a very opportunistic time because there can be pop-up things and different things. But the standard museum is still the gem of any city, I think, really. And often, quite better than even, I won't say which googin' time, but even better than the larger museums. And I think that that has to do with the, it being a little bit less stringent on acceptance. And so what I find with various museums, like the Silver City is just, you know, it's ripe for Victoria. You're doing a wonderful thing, is that they have been these smaller towns, have been a lot more accepting to collect for ascensions of different demographics than larger museums. Which harkens back to why male artists are showing up from the past more than female artists because they were worth more monetarily to museums than women artists were. And still are, unfortunately. So on that note, that's not a very positive note. But it's getting better. And we're doing our best. Yes. Everybody on this show is doing their best. And I think what Victoria is doing is amazing. And it does still tie into the parks, right? And I think, you know, all the people we're talking about in the parks today, we wouldn't know about if it wasn't for museums. And if it wasn't for these programs, and the national parks wouldn't be here for art without art. So I'm celebrating the arts in parks. Victoria is here every third Saturday. Please keep up with her at victoria chick.com. Also here on big blend radio.com. And we do our first Friday parks in the art show with the National Parks Arts Foundation. We hear different artists who are in residency or we're chatting with Tonya about what's coming up in residency programs. And it's always fun. So keep up with us at big blend radio.com. We're talking about the national parks arts foundation.org to learn more. And as we were talking about at the beginning of the show, we're creating this digital retrospective of artists interviews that we've done over the eight years. And also we're putting together Victoria's articles and podcasts that she's done over the years regarding these artists in parks. And this is all coming out for the National Park Service anniversary on August 25th. And in that note, we better get the heck off of this show because we got work to do. Thank you all. Keep up with us at big blend radio.com and go to blend radio and TV.com or national park traveling.com to sign up for our newsletter so you can make sure you get the retrospective also national parks arts foundation.org does an awesome newsletter as well. Thank you both for joining us. Thank you for all the work you do. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Thank you everyone. Yes. Thank you for listening to Big Blend Radio. You can view Victoria Chicks artwork at victoriachick.com. Keep up with us at big blend radio.com. (gentle music)
