A conversation with Francois Audouze
Adventures Of A Black Belt Sommelier
A conversation with one of the world's great wine lovers
Well, that's why I would do is welcome to Adventures of a Black Belt Someday. We're thrilled to chat with you this morning about your amazing, amazing life in wine. Yes. Tell me about this. Well, you and I first connected on Robert Parker's website when you used to, we used to chat about wine on Robert Parker's website back when that was the thing you did. Yes. You know, I created a robot pack for home when he decided to make it paying for home, if you remember. Yes. Well, it's not the same since he's not really involved anymore and the people who write the reviews are not as knowledgeable or reliable as he was. Yes. So, you know, now I use Instagram, which allows me to publish nice pictures and nice stories about my life of wine lover. So, tell me about your famous for the method of do's. Tell me about that. Tell us about that. I will tell you, so, you know, when I was young, I, for a Christmas dinner, I opened a chamber of 1929 and I left half of the bottle for the day after and on the day after I smelled the wine and the wine was 10 times better than when I opened the day before. And so I said, how is it possible that it is, there is such an improvement in the smell and the taste of the wine. And I studied that and what appeared to me is that if you want to drink an old wine, you must open the bottle, let's say four hours before drinking and you open the bottle and then you do nothing in order that by the small surface in the bottom, there is a contact between air and wine, which is very soft and in four hours, it makes shine the wine and you drink a wine, which is largely better than if you had opened the wine four hours before at the moment of drinking. And what is important is the no move, no move. You do nothing, you let the bottle and you don't pour a glass just to check, no, no. You let the bottle quiet, completely quiet and it makes miracles. To give you an idea, a wine which stinks when opening, it stinks and you think it is dead. So many people have thrown away wines, we were very good wines because the first smell was bad, you see what I mean. And I have made many miracles, for example, making a dinner with a homatic on T56. When I opened it, it was sure it was dead. So I told my friends when they arrive four hours later, sorry, but the Romani Konti is dead and they were a little not satisfied, but I had opened other wines like Latash and so. And when it was the time to serve the Romani Konti, my friends asked me, so you said it is dead. But let us try it. And they tried the wine and they told me what is the problem, this wine is good and the chef of the restaurant was there when I opened and he was sure that the wine was dead. I let him drink and he said to all of them, it is impossible that you can imagine that this is the same wine as the wine at the opening. So there are miracles when you let time for a wine to come back to life. And to have an idea, I have made in my official dinners, I have made two more than 280 dinners, which represents, let's say 3,200 wines opened average age 51 years and the number of bottoms that I have put away among 3,200 wines is less than 50. So no winemaker would believe that it is possible, because many winemakers, when they open an old wine, they open it at the last moment, the wine is a call, because it comes from the cellar and when they open the wine, the wine is probably 10% of what it could be. You understand me? 10% of what it could be. And so this method, a call or do's method, makes miracles and then makes that the wine that you would put away would recover. You know, about 10 years ago, I opened a 1923 Romany County. Yes. And when I first opened it, there was just tremendous volatility on the nose. It appeared to be a bad bottle. Fortunately, I had read Alan Meadows notes on the 23 Romany County, where he says that if it's an authentic bottle, it will have this characteristic of really what appears to be a problematic volatile acidity, but if you just give it about an hour, that goes away and it becomes something very special. So we trusted Alan's advice and if the wine eventually was just absolutely magnificent. But when I first opened it, as you said, the first reaction would be to just pour it down the drain. Yeah, exactly. And it happens very open with old wines. In 1994, I opened a magnum of 1870 Chateau Lafitte or she, that was, so it was a 124-year-old magnum of Bordeaux. From the Glamis Castle collection, do you know the Glamis Castle Lafitte? You know that about that? I'm sure you do. And you know, the conventional wisdom with a 124-year-old bottle of wine would be open it and pour it because it's going to fade quickly, right? That's what most people would tell you, open it, pour it, drink it because it's not going to last very long. You know, it was a rainy day. Yeah. I poured myself a glass, I poured it, I decanted it. You would tell me not to decant it, but I did decant it. And then I poured everyone a glass and I kept going back and smelling my glass because I didn't want to waste it because it was potentially such a magnificent wine. So I kept going back and smelling it to wait to what seemed like to be the perfect moment to drink it. Yeah. And it was over an hour. It was still opening up, still becoming more special, still becoming more profound over an hour later. And finally, I just couldn't control myself and I had the first sip. But it was, if I had drunk it immediately after I decanted it, it would have been a terrible mistake. Yeah, exactly. And you know, what is interesting is if you do this method, so you don't pour a wine when you open, you let it stand, quiet. And so when you serve it at the dinner, the wine will stay stable for all the dinner. It can stay two hours without having a single change, which is a contrary of what people say, you serve quickly because you will have the wine which dies. You are well known for having these events where you open very old, very special wines. How did you become this guy who does that? What was your path to becoming on this? I will tell you, until I was 27, I did not drink wine or if I drank wine, I did not know what I drank. You see what I mean? So I have no special interest. And when I was 27, I bought the house and in the house there was a cellar. So as the nature hates the void, I decided that the house, excuse me, was the house in Paris? Near Paris, near Paris. And so I decided to put wine in the cellar and I did not know anything. So what I did, I tasted wines and I followed the direction that I like. So I made many testings for myself, not reading books for myself. And then I entered in the cellar what I liked. And at one moment I had a shock. So I bought from a company named Nicola, which was the best, the best possible cellar in France. And as I were the big customer, they had a catalog for Christmas. And in the catalog for Christmas, they put old wines, so I could buy a brand come back 1928, Obrion 21 and so on. I could buy those wines. And I saw that there was something in the old wines. And one day I had a shock, a man made a blind tasting. And there was a wine, a served blind. I nearly fell from my share, my share, because it was a Clemens 23, 1923, and it was so complex, so different from when I drank that I decided my future is in old wines. And what I did, I decided to buy everything not to have that, but to try those wines. So I wanted to explore everyone in all ages, to give you an idea, to now have drank more than 100 years of a Clemens. And for example, for Romaniconty, for the domain, I have drank 93 different vintages. And for the Romaniconty itself, I have drank 63 different vintages of the Romaniconty. And this is not because I wanted to have a performance. It was because I wanted to explore old wines. And I am in love with old wines, because they tell me so many things. And they have so much to say that I am completely in love with them. And I adore old wines. Have you drank the 1945 Romaniconty? Yes. That's the only wine that Alan, I have a friend here in the United States named Alan Meadows. Yeah. As a website called Berghalm.com and I knew he's really the authority on burgundy champagne. And the 45 Romaniconty is the only wine he's ever given a 100 point score to. Yeah. Yeah. But you know, if I want to be sincere, I am sincere when I drank the 45, I had not the knowledge that I have today. So I probably missed, I can accept that I missed a part of what it was, because I was too beginner in the Romaniconty domain. Are you at your dinners? Is it always French wines or do you ever have Italian wines or American wines? You know, what happens is that the sellers in France have millions and millions of old wines. So I bought from sellers, from in auction, French wines. Because I say always, imagine if you give me a return of French wine of 1923, for example, I know everything. If you give me an Italian one of 1923, I will be lost. You see what I mean? So I prefer to buy from France, because I have the knowledge of all vintage in France. But there is an exception for sweet wine. There are so many great sweet wine everywhere in Europe, that Europe, and for example, South Africa. So that I buy everywhere in Hungary, in Sicily, in South Spain, I buy every sweet wine. For red and white, I prefer to concentrate on French wine. Of course I love some, I love Barolo, I love. But in my dinners, as I have the knowledge of all the wines in France, I prefer to put all the wine in France. If you had to only drink Burgundy or Bordeaux for the rest of your life, would you want to drink Burgundy or Bordeaux? I will not answer this question, because at the level of my trip in the world of wine, I must love every region, because I want to explore everything in every region. Of course there are wines that I prefer. And for example, whole wines were small in my cinema at the beginning, but I began to know better and they are a fantastic wine there. So I am open-minded, every access requires my love, lua requires my love. So I love every region, you see what I mean? Yes, I agree. Do you prefer Romanic country or domain lua, Burgundis? Here I have a facility to buy from Romanic country, it is much more difficult to buy from lua. So now and then I drink wines of lua, but it is not so, for example, for the last 2020, so since 2000, I have drink 650 bottles of Romanic country domain. So it is enormous, I could not do that with lua, but in the United States it is impossible to buy her wines, there is no availability of any domain lua. Yes, it is very difficult. Have you drunk much, Arijaje? I have drinks, as you know, I did not know Arijaje because I do not read books. You know, I buy when something is under my grip, you see, if not so, but I did not know any friend of mine said, you do not know Arijaje, he opened for me, Arijaje, and wow! So I decided, as I know, Link, I decided to drink all the Arijaje which were in restaurants. So I went in the restaurant, he has Arijaje, okay, I ordered Arijaje. So I have drank a lot of Arijaje, I love really. One day I made the dinner in which there were the three co-parenting, and by far the Arijaje were all fantastic, such an intelligent, fantastic wine. I think the greatest wine, I mean, it does not really exist anymore, but when Arijaje, co-parento existed, it was, a premier career was better than any grown for it. Exactly. In my opinion, and I have a drunk as many as you. I've drunk probably fewer than 10, but I had a bottle of the 89 co-parento at dinner at per se restaurant in New York a few years ago, and it was maybe one of the greatest wines I've ever tasted. I had the chance that a friend of Arijaje called me and said, "You know, I live with my wife," and it would be a crime to open Arijaje because what I received from retirement is nothing. So he sold me a collection of all the Copa Hautou for 25 years or something like that, and I drank many of them, and I love them. I love Arijaje. Do you still have some? Yes, yes, yes. If I come to Paris, will you open one? I don't. I'll buy lunch at Patrick Pinaulte again, if you'll agree with your pro-parento. Yeah. You know, that day that we had lunch, did you bring a 1929 Chateau Shalom to lunch that day? Do you remember? Yes. Yes. Yes, I love Chateau. They are so fantastic. The best year of Chateau Shalom is 1865, and it is, well, Copa Hautau, I wonder. How many bottles are in your cellar? A little less than 40,000 wines, but you know, it is a cellar of old wines, so to give you an idea, I did not buy any bottles after 2,000. Who can imagine that? So despite that, I have nearly 40,000 bottles in my cellar. Do you mean that you haven't bought any wine since 2000, or you haven't bought any wine younger than 2000? Oh, I stopped buying a bottle after 2000, because you know, they had an attitude at that time. They forgot all their customers to go to China. And so before I was always invited in, in Bordeaux after 2000, never invited. So I thought the attitude is not fair, and I decided I stopped buying Bordeaux. But it was not against the wine of Bordeaux. It was against the attitude that they had at that time. I understand. How many bottles of the 40,000 are from the 19th century? 19th century. So I would say some hundreds, some hundreds, but exactly it's difficult to say, because I have, for example, about bottles which have no indication, you know, nobody wants them. I took them. And you know that it is 19th century, because you see the glass is blown. And so I have, yes, some hundreds of the 19th century. Any from the 18th century? A few, if you have, let's say, if it is 10 or not, probably I would say 30th of the 18th century. Are those Madeira or? Mainly, sweet wine, yes, Madeira, Constancia. I think I have also from Angayat, Tokai. So it's from there. I don't know exactly because, but to give you an ID, before, you know, I have only data after 2000. Before that, I have drank for 30 years, between 70 and 2000, I have no data. But on my data, since so after, before 1901, I have the 430 bottles before 1901. So it is a certain experience on all the wines. What would a bottle of Tokai, okay, Asencia, from the 18th century be worth, if you put it up for auction? I don't know, I don't know. So you know, you must know that I have never sold any bottle of wine. I sell them through dinners, but what is important is if I sell them, they are drunk. So I never feed speculation, never, never. So it was my philosophy. I never sell a bottle. I sell it through dinners. When you have these dinners with these amazing old wines, do people pay to, do they pay to come to those dinners or? Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, I have created a company which sells dinners and I give a program of wines and a chef works with me on the menu because I want that every dish is devoted to a wine and with a recipe which must feel, go with the wine. And of course, if I open a hippet with 61, so an unknown person, I don't see why I should do it for free. What's your favorite, what restaurant does the best job of hosting your dinners? And now, for nowadays, it is a restaurant, a plenitude for Cheval Blanc Paris, with a new Don Quelier, who has six styles, three in Paris and three in Saint Robert. And we have a really fusional attitude towards wine and food. I work with him and he's fantastic dinners because we work together and we make it create something fantastic because it is important. I was going to ask you if you'd ever had a dinner at plenitude. Yeah, I've met five dinners in Plenitude and I've made the first dinner before the opening of plenitude because I have a friendship with an unknown killer. And you know, if there is a book one day about the story of plenitude, my dinner will be the first in the book due to my friendship with the chef. There's a YouTube channel called Alexander the Guest. Have you seen that on YouTube, Alexander the Guest? No. It's a fellow, obviously his name is Alexander. He's from Hungary. He owns a Michelin one-star restaurant in Budapest. Yeah. And he goes, he eats in Michelin three-star restaurants all over the world and makes videos of his dinners or lunches or dinners. Really, I don't know how he gets these restaurants to let him make these videos of his meals, but somehow he does and he posts them on YouTube and they're really, really well-done but they're really excellent. His review of plenitude was, I mean, he drank the shovel block with the tasting menu included a glass of shovel block. I think 2000 shovel block was with one of the lines on the tasting menu. Can you imagine pouring shovel block by the glass in a restaurant? Yeah. But you know, I met with Arnold and Keller in plenitude. It was a lunch and I had brought eight Romane Contee including Romane Contee 1899 Romane Contee. Romane does not have, and it was a fantastic, fantastic lunch and Arnold and Keller made recipes which were absolutely fantastic. What is your approach to matching food with your wines? How do you, how do you, how do you deduce that? What's the process? So, an old wine needs a dish which is absolutely readable, readable. It means that it should not be complicated. It should have directions which are clear because the old wine needs that. Do you understand that? It is very, very, very important and I work with the chef. You know, sometimes the sommelier thinks that he knows. But if he knows a O'Brien 2000, he probably does not know what he is O'Brien in 1918. You see what I mean? So, I am there to say this taste must be so. And I work with the chef, and for example, with Arnold and Keller, we try the dishes. I try the dishes, I come in, prepare the dish, and I say no, no, change that, so, so and so. So, the dishes must be completely clear and understandable for and I love to make new combinations, combinations that not many, not many people would dare. For example, whenever I open a petrice, I ask the chef to cook a red millet, who would put the red millet for a petrice? I did it. And for example, for Romani Conti, what I like today is to make poached foie gras. Because poached foie gras are the taste, which is smooth, which is very quiet, and the complexity of Romani Conti is better shown with such a dish. So, I work on that to make recipes, which work for the wine and for the pleasure of the wine. Did you know, Michelle Garard? I knew him, he did not know me, so I've been there, but he was not supposed to know me. He was a very, very great chef, and he has brought many ideas to all the chefs. Did you ever eat at Rustant Dela Thera Meade? Yes, I mean, but it is long ago. Yes. They have a wonderful cellar, yeah. Does it still exist? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And do you know, O'Barradavoy? Of course, I can say that we are really great friends, because you know, he's a very restricted person. But for example, when I open a bottle and when the smell is amazing, I call him, and if you want a story about that, one day I open a Rijbo 39, and the smell is so great, and I know that 39 is the year of O'Barradavoy, so this smell is so great that I call O'Barradavoy and I tell O'Barrad, this smell is so fantastic, because 39 is not a great year. How is it possible? And O'Barrad says to me, "You should look at the label. If you see on the label, pre-filoxaric vines, you have a fortune." And I said, "For the fortune it is too late, because I opened the bottle and I call you for the smell." And I said, "Yes, there is a mansion, J.A.V. in France, and it told me this is a pre-filoxaric Rijbo, and it was a wine absolutely fantastic." So if I can talk with, I have drunk with him my best ever Romani Cotei wine. It is lego di shoe 29, and we have drunk it together. It is my best ever wine of DRC, the lego di shoe 29, which belongs now to La Tarsh, but it was a special person, special plot. And I wasn't aware there was that wine, but it is the best that I have. And I drank it with O'Barrad, and he said it is absolutely fantastic. Have you drunk much Chateau Rios? Yes, yes, many. It is one of my, I don't know, if I had to pick one winery in the world, Chateau Rios would be one of them, it might be the one. Yes, but I am not sure, because the relation with the wine maker is not so easy. Do you know Bertrand, who is taking over for O'Barrad, do you know him? Yes, yes, yes. With the daughter of Le Luebiz Lór. Do you think Le Lue will get involved at DRC now that O'Barrad has retired? For my opinion, it will be completely different. Bertrand is not a man for communication, for, you know, he respects the demand and he wants to keep the demand for centuries, you see what I mean. But concerning, testing with him, it is not more the strategy. He is the defender of the demand, that is his view on the demand. So it will be different, because with O'Barrad, drunk so many wine and with an obelé, I have drunk so many wines. So it is a new world with the new ones, hmm? What was your career, what did you do professionally? So I had a group of companies selling steel for every usage of steel, so I had locations to store the steel, and deliver to every customer, I had 120 places where I had steel, so it was a big company of 4,000 people that I put in the stock market. And that was my main, my main, I was very, working a lot. And so wine was only to relax, only to be with friends, to share impressions on wine. And I was working a lot, and I had lasted, and I began to sell dinners only when I was retired from the activity in the steel industry, hmm? You have children and grandchildren? Yes, three children, six grandchildren, and my son has exactly the same taste as I have. My daughters, they love wine, but they are not concerned. If I say a regier, they will not know what is a regier, but if they drink a great wine, they know that they drink a great wine, hmm? And they are some wine that I drink only with my son because nobody would understand, you know, when we have a bottle of 19th century, we don't know what it is. We guess, the two of us, we guess, by pleasure, but I would never open it to other people, you know. You know what, a man named Elaine Bouquet, Elaine Bouquet, he's a Frenchman. He posts pictures on Facebook of really old, mostly bordeaux, that he opens, B-O-Q-U-E-T. Yes, yes, he's a friend of mine, yes, yes, and he begins to make dinners like I do, and I am very positive on that because we must be several to do the same, and he has a good taste, and he's a nice chap. Have you ever tasted 62 Lorois La Romanate? No, no, but for me, as you mentioned, 62, the greatest latage is 62. And Robert, the villain says the same as I do, the 62 is the greatest latage. And La Romanate, I drink many in La Romanate, made by different producers, Bushah and so on. And I've drank probably 60 different vintages, and it is a great wine, of course. And Louis Michel, Légé Belin, makes a great, great, great work. The 62 Lorois La Romanate is as a wine that I will never forget. Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. You know that the greatest rejebur of L'Orois, made by the Louis 55, the 55 is the greatest. Do you think 1971 is a great vintage in Burgundy? Yes. But may I make a joke, much too young for me. No, it's a great, great vintage, of course. I talked to Jeremy Seis at Domingue Jockar recently. He told me he doesn't think it's a very good vintage. '71, it depends on the demand. I don't know. What I've tasted, I opened a '71 Latage 15 years ago, it was very special. Yeah. So, Petrus, how much Petrus do you own? Own, I don't know. I've drank many, many vintage since the oldest 1915. And one of my favorite is '26. '26 was fantastic, absolutely. And in recent wines, what I prefer is '89, '90 and 2000, fantastic wines. You've mentioned 1923 a couple of times as wines that were really special, but I don't think 1923 is not really regarded as a great Fordot vintage. A red wine, yes, not so much, not so much. But you know, there are years which were not, let's talk about '62 in Bordeaux. It was a year which was forgotten. But if you buy '62, today, you drink marvellous. Over here in '62, it's fantastic, for example. So you know, there is a difference between the knowledge at the moment and the knowledge when you have spent 50 years, huh? You don't pay attention to what critics say, you form your own opinion. I don't take, sorry. You don't pay attention to what wine writers say, you form your own opinion. Absolutely, absolutely. I don't listen to anyone. I enjoy my wines by myself and, you know, I must tell you, I love wine, I respect wine. And I will tell you what I say to people who come to my dinners. Some of them, I have not drank a lot of old wine. I say, please, if you think that you know something on wine, forget all what you know. And if you think that you don't know anything on wine, forget that you don't know anything on wine. You must have an open mind, and I say, do not judge a wine, try to understand it. And if you try to understand it, it means that you're humble. The more humble you will be, the more you will understand the wine. And it is absolutely necessary, open-minded and open to the wine. And I am always open to the wine. Would you tell us one last question. Would you tell us an amazing moment for you in your life loving wine? Yes, I was telling you a moment which was very interesting. I was very friend with the director of Bouchard. And Bouchard Perifice. And Bouchard, they have a cellar of old wines, which is unique in the world. And the director of Bouchard told me, oh, one day you should come to drink our whites off the years 1860 because they are fantastic. And even if I love old wines, a white wine of 1860 something should be not so great. So I said, okay, why not? And I went there and I drank a Mohrache Bouchard 1864 and 1865. And when I drank the 1865, it was as if I had nothing around me. I was alone on the planet, you know, and I had nothing. And it is my best ever white wine. So I would have said, no, it is an impossibility. It is good. And when I drank it, it is my best ever white wine Mohrache 1865 of Bouchard, incredible. So I talked to Christian Moreau recently, the great Chablis winemaker, and he said almost the same thing. He said, when he tastes a really special wine, the world disappears. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It has happened also to me with a amateur Chappell 61. It was as if I was alone in the world. You know, I some friends, my business partner and I and it was six or six of us. We were at a really wonderful restaurant in New York City called Lespinas. Yes. And this was in the, I think 1995. And they had a Magnum of 61, and Mita Chappell on the wine list for $900. And they also had a Magnum of 61, Gaia Barbersco and Elgaya's first vintage on the list for $900. Wow. And my business partner, he had all the money. He desperately wanted to have the Gaia. And I, you know, was just adamant that we had to have the Hermitage last at Bell because it's, as you know, is one of the greatest wines ever. Yeah. And we argued about it for about 10 minutes. And finally, we just said, well, we'll just have both. So we had the Gaia Barbersco with the main course and it was marvelous, magical, incredible wine. And then we had the Hermitage last at Bell with the cheese. And it was, it was perfection. I mean, it was just, it's almost kind of impossible for wine to be better than that bottle was. Yeah, I agree with that. You know, it was a very formal restaurant. So the wines weren't on the table. They were on a sideboard and it was the Soleilier's first night on the job. And he got confused and he poured Saintsbury, California peanut and wire into our glasses of Hermitage last at Bell. And he'd done it before I realized what he was doing. He had poured this marginal California peanut and wire into our glasses of Hermitage last at Bell. And the tragedy is that how many magnums of Hermitage last at Bell, 61 existed in the world at that point, not very many. And he'd just ruined one of them. Yeah. Well, yeah, but they gave us a, they gave us a bottle of 90, 60, 90, 67, shattered to come. Yeah. No charge to make it up to us. Yeah. But it was such God, it was what a heart, what a heartbreaking thing, because they didn't have another magnum of, of 61 every times I'll show up, I couldn't replace it. But it's funny that you mentioned that wine, because it's another one of my absolutely most memorable wines of my long career wine. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for your time today. This has been, you know, you told me you didn't think that my viewers would be interested in anything you have to say, and I had to kind of force you to do this with me today. I guarantee you, my viewers are going to be very, very thrilled that you did this with me today, because this has been absolutely fantastic. Thank you very much, and the next time in Paris, I want to have lunch again, and you don't have to bring the 20 thing. Thank you. But I have to tell you that bottle of Chateau Shalom with the fettuccine with white truffles that day, there's nobody's ever had a better course of food than that. That was, you know, I mean, the thing is if somebody said, what wine would you like to have with fettuccine with white truffles? You wouldn't say Chateau Shalom, but it was like, there was a perfect wine. It was the perfect wine that day for you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much, Roswell. Bye. Bye. Bye