- Hey everybody, welcome to the show. This is the Other People Podcast, a weekly program featuring in-depth interviews with today's leading writers. I'm Brad Listi, it's good to be with you. I am here in Los Angeles, and I have a great episode for you today. Don't forget to hit the subscribe button wherever you listen. You can also subscribe on YouTube. Follow me on social media, TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, and Blue Sky. So my guest today is Kazaya Weir, author of the debut novel, The Myth Makers. - So, him as a figure sort of was looming large over the book, and then I did become interested in all of these literary men, and the women who sort of existed in their wake. I was also like, I love Nabokov, and his relationship with Vera was something that I thought about a lot in college in the years afterwards. And just the relationships between writers and their partners, I think is really interesting, especially when both are writers. - Okay, that was Kazaya Weir, author of the debut novel, The Myth Makers, available now in trade paperback from Mary Sue Ruchi books. The Myth Makers tells the story of a young journalist named Sal Cannon, who discovers a short story that seems to be about her own life. It's a bit of a mystery, and it leads to an entanglement with the authors, widow, daughter, and former best friend. The Myth Makers is a novel about perspective and memory, creativity and self discovery. It's a very promising debut, and I had a great time talking with Kazaya Weir. Our conversation is coming up in just a couple of minutes. A reminder that I do a weekly email newsletter. I would love it if you would subscribe over at Substack, and if you would be so kind. I hope you will join. The other people, Patreon community, especially if you are a regular listener of this program, support the show and the work that I do over at patreon.com/otherpplpod. Today's episode is brought to you by Tin House, publisher of a new story collection called Mystery Lights by Lena Valencia. Set primarily in the American Southwest, the stories and mystery lights follow women and girls who are grappling with dangers both familiar and fantastic. From the all too real horror of a sexual predator on a college campus to a lost sister transformed by cave dwelling creatures, Lena Valencia's debut story collection announces an electrifying new voice in contemporary fiction. Once again, the book is called Mystery Lights, the debut story collection by Lena Valencia, available from Tin House. (upbeat music) So my guest, once again, is Kazaya Weir. Her debut novel, The Mythmakers, is now available in trade paperback from Mary Sue Ruchi books. Kazaya Weir is a senior editor at Vanity Fair magazine. Her writing has appeared in a variety of publications, including The New York Times, Elle Esquire, and The Los Angeles Review of Books. She grew up in California and British Columbia and currently lives in Maine. I really enjoyed meeting Kazaya Weir and talking with her about her debut novel and I'm excited to share our conversation with you right now. So here we go. This is Kazaya Weir and her debut novel, One More Time, is called The Mythmakers. So I am in Maine, about a 10 minute walk from the water and I'm in a room that is sort of, it's a mix of different things, but it gets used as an office and as a sort of pathway to the outside, but it's also the repository for all of the books. So we did need to have a structural engineer come and just make sure that this room could support the number of bookshelves that are here. And thus far it has. - Wow, you had a structural engineer come out and like evaluate? - My husband did a lot of DIY renovations, sort of gutting to the house when we moved in and so that was part of the thinking that had to go into this. But so it wasn't, he wasn't specifically for the books, but he did advise on the books. - The fact that your husband can DIY gut a house is just thoroughly emasculated me, like at the outset. - He's, yeah, he's kind of amazing in that way, but yeah, a lot of practice and having things go not quite as planned and then figuring it out, so. - And you moved to Maine during the pandemic, is that a pandemic move? - It is a pandemic move. We were in New York. I had gone back to San Francisco. My parents were moving out of San Francisco and we went and moved in with them for like five months and then figured out what the next thing was and it turned out to be Maine. - And you like it? - I do, yeah, it's an adjustment and it's, you know, I think having been in New York for so long, nothing's ever going to be New York, but Maine is incredible and it's just slower and it's quiet and I walk the dog on the beach most days and that's all really, really lovely. So it's been, it has been really nice, but it was lonely in the beginning. Didn't know anybody, so. - I feel like there's, you're in Portland, where are you, like that area? - Yeah, just outside of Portland. - I feel like there's a lot of writers up there at this member. - There are tons, there are tons of writers, yeah. And once you start to meet them, then they are really everywhere, but for the first, you know, 2021, people were still kind of not out so much and so it took a little bit of time. But now I feel like I have a bunch of people and that's great, it just takes time. - Yeah, it does. I don't think you can judge a place until you've lived there for a year. Like that's the earliest point, that's my theory of it anyway. Like you can't have an opinion that's worth a shit about a place until you spent like at least a year there. - Yeah, yeah, I think that's right. And just meeting new people as an adult and as someone who doesn't have a workplace here, you know, it's just a, you have to sort of make an effort to make friends, which is not something that I had experienced as an adult before, so it's a whole new set of skills that you have to work on. And as a shy person, it can be a little, it was daunting, but everyone has been very nice. - So what do you do? You set up play dates for yourself with people? - I mean, basically it was really like, it started with walking on the beach and having my dog go up to other people's dogs and if they seemed at all somebody who you wanted to talk to just being like, "Should we hang out sometime?" - Will you play with me? - Truly, I know, I know. And just, yeah, I think just having to be more okay with seeming like you need people than maybe I had felt in the past. There's something so vulnerable about saying to somebody who you've met. Like, I think you're really nice and I would like to see you more. You know, it's like dating but much more open-ended. And so that's tough, but it was fun. And then now there are all these cool people who I've reeled in. - Good for you. Yeah, it is kind of like interesting and pitiful and just notable how hard it is to make and maintain friends and friendships as an adult. - Yeah, yeah, when you can't fall back on just like, here are all the people who we mutually know, let's talk about them or, you know, this is the workplace that we go to every day. Let's talk about that. There's just, you have to dig a little deeper and work harder and, but there's, I think that can, I'm a couple of people, it feels like I have known them for decades at this point and I have known them for a year. So I think there is something to be said for the people who you choose when you have sort of become more of the human who you are going to be, not that I don't have great childhood friends too, but it's all just different. - Yeah, well, let's talk about your trajectory, like creative trajectory. You work as a journalist, the myth makers is your debut. - Yes. - Now available in paperback. And I just like to hear you talk about how it happened and where you got started and how far back this goes. I feel like I hear one of two things. Like either like I've wanted to be a writer since I was four when I like wrote it in my journal and told my entire family that I was going to be a famous novelist or it's somebody who's like, I didn't really even read until after college and like, where do you fall on that spectrum? - Yeah, I'm the first one. I just loved reading as soon as I learned how, and you know, my mom is always joking about how she would have to tell me to stop reading when I was crossing the street as a kid. Like I just always wanted to be reading. We'd go on road trips as a family in the summer and I would just be reading the entire time and my parents would be like, can you look out the window at the scenery and take that in? I just wanted to be reading. And then I was always writing. I had a typewriter that they had had from long ago, and I would, you know, dick around on that and write really funny stories as a eight, nine, 10 year old. And then it was sort of all that I ever thought that I was going to do. I don't think that I was very strategic about any decisions. Looking back, it is actually kind of funny because I don't, I really don't remember making any decisions about how I was going to make this happen. Both of my parents are classical musicians. And so I think I saw two people who had been creative their whole life and had made it work as a career. And so I don't know if I was ever really aware of the challenges that I'd go into making up. - What challenges, what are you talking about? - Yeah, I know, I know. You're another lucky one, I guess, who has none. - That's just seamless, seamless. - Yeah, so I just didn't ever think of doing anything else. And I guess I just assumed that I would just cobble it together kind of no matter what. Like I always had jobs growing up. Like I worked in coffee shops and like as a receptionist at a hair salon. So I feel like I just always felt like there would be things that I could do just as long as I could keep writing also. But then when I graduated from college, I was moving to New York. I think I had like $1,100 that would get me through a month's rent, but I needed a job after, like, you know, that was what I was going to New York with. And so I just applied to literally every literary adjacent job that there was. I got a job as a receptionist at a literary agency that blasted, it was short-lived. And sort of while I was working at the agency, then I was also applying for other jobs elsewhere. And I got a job at Elle magazine as an editorial assistant and was there for five years and then worked then switched jobs to Vanity Fair, which is where I am now. - Wow, so there's a lot to unpack. First of all, your parents are both classical musicians. And I want to say I read that you don't have any kind of musical gift. - Yes, I don't, unfortunately. Yeah, I played violin for a decade and it just wasn't there. - See, are you bitter? - No, I don't, I think it just sort of was something I did in the same way that a lot of kids, you know, play soccer and don't become wonderful athletes, which was another gift that I did not have. And it just, I'm grateful that I did it and I would love it if I was a musical virtuoso, but it's not my path. - It's not your path. But I mean, like, yeah, most kids play soccer and don't go on to be like Olympians, but most kids don't have parents who are both professional soccer players. Like your parents are like, must be really, really gifted musicians. - They are, they really are. And I think, I mean, I think it's just probably a testament to their parenting that I didn't ever feel like there were expectations that I become a musician. There were expectations that I practice and I failed at those. I think that my parents realized I would not become a musician when they found that I had been propping up my book on the music stand while I was running my scales. And that was not, you know, they didn't love that, but it wasn't ever like, you're not, you know, if you do that, you're not going to get to Carnegie Hall. It was like, you've committed to this thing. So you should be practicing properly. And yeah, I am really lucky that I got to have these models of creativity who were also, they just are really supportive. They read everything that I've ever written. They're definitely going to listen to this podcast. They're just, I'm really lucky with them. - Do you have any siblings? - I do, I have a little brother. - Is he, is he younger? - Is he musical? - He played drums growing up, but he's not a musician. He's a really beautiful eye. He's a really wonderful photographer. But yeah, neither of us got the music gene. - That's why. - Maybe it skips the generation. - Well, you know what, my great grandfather was a musician. - Yeah. - I never met him, but he was like a pianist. And I want to say he played guitar too. Just like one of these people who could just play. - Yeah. - And we have this photo of him sitting at the piano, this old like black and white. It's like the only image that I really have of him. And I never, I didn't grow up with any instruments in the house. - Okay. - My parents didn't even have a stereo. My parents had no Beatles records, none of that. I didn't grow up with any of it. So I have no idea. Like my whole joke is that I have no idea if I had. I could pick up an instrument and be, it could be your thing. - That's right. Maybe that's the thing that I've been missing my whole life, but I'm almost too scared to learn 'cause now I'm old. And it's like, what happens? What do I do with it? You know, so. I don't know. - So it is, that's something that I think about all the time is like, I mean not, I'm not sitting here constantly thinking about it, but that idea of, you know, some people do find their thing and that's amazing. And then they are, you know, artistic geniuses, but the number of people who maybe just didn't have the right thing put in front of them, like does, do all of us have a thing and it's just about finding it or, yeah, I don't know. - Yeah, I think about that too. Like maybe what if you're a person who has a thing but you don't know what it is? - Yeah. - And you never find it or you find it, but it's too late to really do anything with it. And it's just like this tragedy. - I think it's never too late. I think that's the thing you have to keep is that it just isn't ever too late. And if you find a thing and you're still alive, it's not too late. - Unless it's like the day before you die, then it's probably too late. - It is, but then you're dead the next day. So there's like not enough time to feel tragic about it. - All right, well, you grew up in the Bay Area. - Yeah, I grew up right in San Francisco, in Cole Valley, and then my parents moved out to sort of out by Ocean Beach. I don't know, have you spent much time in San Francisco? - I bet, yeah. - Yeah, yeah. So they were in that Outer Richmond, which is like my favorite place in all the world. And I always thought that I would move back there, but I don't know if you've heard, it's become very expensive. And so they moved out of the city and that was part of the calculus in ending up in Maine. - Wait, so your parents moved to Maine too? - They moved to Canada. They are on the east coast of Canada. And so we're pretty close to them, which is great. And we're sort of right between them and my husband's parents. - Wow, they moved to the east coast of Canada. I mean, I mean, I don't mean to get into your family's real estate situation. - No, yeah, so my dad's Canadian. And we actually, for high school, they moved to the west coast of Canada to a little island. We all moved there. And so I went to high school on this tiny island in British Columbia, and then they moved back to San Francisco. So the joke is like, maybe this is just a thing that they do every couple decades, but I think they're settled and I think we're settled. And yeah, so we're in Maine. - But mostly a Bay Area childhood. - Yeah, yeah, up through high school and then during college summers, I would go back to San Francisco. - Where'd you go to college? - Bard in upstate New York. - And did you study writing? - Yes, yeah. I did like the literature creative writing. It's like semi, it's not a real double major, but I did like a literature senior thesis and then a creative senior thesis. And it was wonderful. I loved college. I liked, I loved the academic part of college. The social part of college, I got like a little maybe two into it. (laughs) But the academics, I would go back literally any day. Like if someone told me that I could go back and go to class all day again, I 100% would. - So you're a nerd? - Yeah, I guess. It's just great to just only be learning things. Like that's such a fun, lucky thing. And of course, you don't realize it when you're in it, but I think I also did. I think I did realize it a little bit, but you always value it more when you can't have it anymore, so. - So you did, when you were there and you were thinking of becoming a writer, which I imagine you were in college, if that was your track, were you thinking journalism? Or were you already thinking, like I'm gonna be a novelist? Was it some combination? - It was always fiction. I took fiction workshops. And then towards the end of college, I took one journalism workshop that was structured just around writing different, you know, creative journalism. Like we wrote a profile and we wrote a journey piece and we really-- - Wait, wait, wait, wait, what's a journey piece? - When you're in search of your subject. So all of these were, this was also, it was barred and they were all sort of tailored for people who couldn't be doing a lot of like reporting on the ground. So it was a journey piece about Jesus. And so it was like a semi-fictional, but reported out as if it was non-fiction. It was a lot of fun, but that was the first time that I started, I had always read magazines. Like my parents had, my mom got Vanity Fair, they had the New Yorker around. So I would read magazines, but that class was when I first started to sort of take apart what a magazine article is. And that was when it occurred to me that that was a career that one could pursue. I really do, I don't know, when you were growing up, were you thinking like strategically about careers that you could? Yeah, okay. So it didn't ever sort of occur to me that you could do these jobs that were the things that I was consuming. So I mean, I was totally baffled when I got the editorial assistant position, which was a total combination of like having to go through many, many edit tests and having to interview with a ton of different people. And then also knowing people, my professor from the journalism class was a journalist and set me up with an informational interview with one of, it was either his editor or an editor who he knew. And at the time there wasn't a job open, but over the three months that I was working at the literary agency, this job opened up. And so it was one of those combinations of just really pushing for something. And then also like the nepotism that comes through going to a college where there were people who were working in the industry that I wanted to be working in. Yeah, it always takes a little bit of that or a little bit of luck somehow. It's usually a bit of who you know, combined with what you've done, or went to a good school that always helps. And a school that's New York adjacent, I'm imagining that probably helps too. So you got your foot in the door and you have since built a successful career. I think what you're a senior editor at Vanity Fair, is that right? Yeah. So you write features for them. Yeah, I write features. Journey pieces. Journey pieces, I know, I haven't done, I haven't done a true journey piece. I think that they're harder to assign these days because a certain amount of money goes into them not knowing the outcome. So it's harder to sort of send a writer off into the abyss and just let them poke around a foreign country for three weeks while they try to find whoever it is that they're trying to find. You're like, I really need to go to Greece and trust. I know. I need to do a journey piece to find a story. There's not even something in my mind. I just think, if I spend a month, two months max, I think I'll find something. Yeah, yeah, it'd be great. And I should say, I'm a Vanity Fair subscriber. My wife is. I have like a love/hate relationship with the magazine. I always read it. And I think the features writing is really excellent. I think that's what keeps me going back. It's just like, there's always like that article towards the end of the magazine, especially in the grading card era where it was like the rich people of the Hamptons and somebody got murdered. I'm just like, oh God. Don't you love reading those pieces? Kind of, kind of. At a certain point, I'm like, okay, I don't need to hear about somebody's trust fund and like the, you know, the intern assigned warfare of the family and, you know, but it's part of the allure. It's like the lifestyle of the rich and famous kind of thing. But a lot of the political writing, some of this, even some of the celebrity profile stuff, that's where I, that's where I really go. - Yeah, yeah. I just have been so lucky with both these jobs. L was so great because I knew nothing and I had bosses who were willing to teach me and to sort of see where my interests went and then they made spaces for that. So that was really wonderful. And then at VF, you know, it's just being able to work on a piece for like six months at a time. Of course, while doing other things, but that is such a, such a lucky thing to be able to do. - Hey you guys, it is summertime. It's beautiful, it's hot, it's sunny. There's a lot going on. And before you head outside, be sure to fuel up with factors, no prep, no mess meals. These are chef crafted meals, fresh, never frozen, dietitian approved, and ready to eat in just two minutes. So what are you waiting for? Make today the day you kickstart a healthy new routine. These are easy, nutritious options made with ingredients you can trust. And it helps keep kitchen time to a minimum. No shopping, prepping, cooking, or cleaning up. So get to it. Head on over to factormeals.com/otherppl50 and use the code otherppl50 to get 50% off your first box plus 20% off your next month. Again, that's code otherppl50@factormeals.com/otherppl50 get 50% off your first box plus 20% off your next month while your subscription is active. One more time, it's called factor. Check it out and eat good food. (upbeat music) You know, as like a fan of magazines myself, I have to know that there really aren't that many magazines out there that are worth a shit. Like, I'm not sad to say, but it's like New York Magazine, the New Yorker, Vanity Fair, Esquire, maybe a little bit of GQ. - Yeah, yeah, I mean, what I will say is I feel like there are always smaller magazines popping up that are really great. I mean, like Astra existed for a moment and then unfortunately, I think it closed, but people are trying. I think it's just, you know, it's tough for all, like all creative pursuits because there are so many, there's so much that's pulling our attention right now. I think it's sort of similar with books. There are just so many things that people can look at and read and watch often for free. And so, yeah, I don't know. But maybe I'm just totally naive or I'm just like willfully, you know, have my head in the sand about this. But I do think that people have been telling me that magazines were dying since I started in the industry in the same way that people told me that, you know, I mean, people have been saying that the novel is dying for decades. They're both still kicking around. So I'll be, I would be very sad to be in a world where there weren't magazines. I think that they do something that nothing else really does, just having, like even as you're talking about it, the fact that there's this package that arrives to you that has so many different things in it that's created by so many different brains. Like the number of people who touch each story in the magazine and who can tribute to the wide range of it, there just isn't a lot like that. And it is sort of like walking into a bookstore curated by, you know, by a really great bookseller who has like a point of view and who has really wonderful taste that the ability to discover new things is just so high. And there are so many things that I've read in a magazine that I would never, you know, like if I'm clicking around on the internet, I would never gravitate to that. But just because it happens to be the next thing on the next page and you just start reading and then it's incredible. That's, it's such a like expanding process in a way that I think that the internet can seem very expansive and it is very expansive. But I often feel like I'm being fed sort of just like a, I'm being fed in an echo chamber and that I'm, the more that you read about one thing, the more you're fed that one thing. And it's sort of like an inward process instead of an outward process. But maybe I'm just not doing the internet, right? But yeah, I love, I love the feeling of a magazine and just the variety that comes from it. - Yeah, it's interesting. We talk about how magazines are dying and the novel is dying and yet when I walk past a newsstand, there are like hundreds, it seems like, magazines on those shelves. So people are trying, it's just how like you say, and the same thing too. There's how many books are published every year. It's like, I think we're setting records there too. So the question becomes how do you get people's attention in an economy like this where there's so many different things like you could say the same thing about podcasts and there's a trillion podcasts now. So how do you cut through and get people to lock in on what you're doing? And it's happening with TV and movie. It feels like it's happening to every different-- - I think it is, yeah, it doesn't like it is. When you started, so you started this podcast 15 years ago? - Roughly, I think it's gonna be 14 in September. - And was it as consistent, right, from the get-go? Like, did you feel like podcasts were going to be a thing? Or like, how did you, you know, why did you start doing it? - Well, I mean, I think it was a little bit of that. I think part of it was just, oh, this will just be an experiment. - Yeah. - I put very little thought into the name of the show. It was like a joke, like other people with bread lists. Like, it was literally that. And then it just grew, or as I like to say, metastasized. And I, you know, here I am still doing it, but I feel like these conversations give something to me. And there was also like immediate, when I started it, there was an immediate response from people saying this is good. And I think it was mainly because at the time, there wasn't a ton of this sort of stuff in the literary space. Now there's, you know, now it's flooded. So it's a different, you know, different era. But I don't know, it's like a continuing education, and it's hard to give up. It's like I have, I get to have like really substantive conversations with really smart people who do cool, creative work. I mean, that's, that's what I feel about journalism too. Like it's just what a lucky thing to be either, you know, I do interviews with authors and with other people. And I love doing those. And then when you're working on a feature, you're just like sinking into this world for a certain amount of time and learning about things that sometimes I know a certain amount about, but sometimes I don't know really anything about when I'm, when I'm starting them and just, yeah, getting, and again, like I don't know, do you feel like you're an introvert or an extrovert or somewhere in between? - Somewhere in between. - Okay. - But I mean, I, I say that and like, I spend like in an ordinate amount of time alone that what I think drive most people to the brink of sanity and it's fine. - Yeah, I can't remember it. Somebody said something about like being an introverted extrovert and it means something. But I, I feel very similar in that like, I love to be alone for extended periods of time when I am social, it's great, but I feel really sort of like depleted afterwards and I feel like I need to recharge with alone time, which I think not everybody, I think people who are extroverted like, you know, are like the, what is it, the gremlins who like get stronger when they're, you know, fed with water or whatever it was. - That's weird. - But I, but I feel that way that it's, it's really hard for me to just start up a conversation with somebody at a party. But when you're interviewing people, there's these parameters that are set. Like we both agreed to sit down and talk to each other today. There's sort of no question as to whether, you know, I mean, you could be totally bored by what I'm saying and you have to sort of put up, you know, make a good front and pretend not to be. But, but there's not, it like takes away some kind of the anxiety of talking to other people 'cause there's like a job and there's a mission. And so I think that has been such a draw for me with reporting and that, you know, like I couldn't imagine just calling up random people and I mean, it would be very intrusive to just call people and ask them random questions. But I do that for my job and it is intrusive and it is sometimes uncomfortable. But there has been something liberating over the years of just getting to ask people questions and learn about them. It feels like a very lucky thing. - Well, and there's that pretext, you know, like you say, it's not just like random stranger calling you. It's a journalist who's doing an interview and you have a kind of agreed upon framework and it's undivided attention usually. - Right, right. - Like there's something very undivided about an interview that is like so uncommon nowadays, even with like intimates and friends and stuff, like everybody's on their phones and it's usually you're at a party and it's loud and I just find it like annoying. You can't have like a meaningful conversation with people in too many instances. - Yeah, yeah, I think that's probably a huge part of it. And I think, I mean, I think it's why people like listening to podcast interviews is because it is this rare occurrence of hearing a sustained conversation, which is I think just such a satisfying thing and probably just a really human thing is just two people talking to each other. Like that's, there's just something very compelling about that. - So you did not get your MFA? - No, I didn't. - But you have worked this journalism job and you have profiled over the years a number of notable authors, including like Zadysmith, Nicole Krauss, Rebecca Solmet. And I think in that manner, you got a kind of education, like a kind of like self-directed graduate level degree. Like what did you learn, especially since you've pivoted to writing fiction of your own and publishing a novel of your own, what did the journalism work? And in particular, these author interviews give you like the access that you had to these women. I guess maybe there's some men too, but what did that process give you in terms of you kind of formulating your own approach to writing fiction? - Yeah, well, I say that I was not a strategic thinker, but I was, I mean, it was entirely self-serving, you know, pitching those profiles all those years because I did just want to talk to people who were doing the thing that I wanted to do. I think I learned a lot. I mean, just the preparation for doing a profile is so much reading of one person's work, which is something that you do, you know, if you love a writer, I think you might just do that naturally, but it is a different kind of reading or it like taught me how to do a different kind of reading of just reading, you know, six books by the same person in a couple months and really thinking about them as a person and as a writer, which, you know, some people don't like to do with like some people think that that's very impure, you know, to think about the person behind the words, but I find that really interesting. So just-- - Wait, what is it? Who are these people who are like, it's impure to-- - I don't know, you know, it's the whole like death of the author thing that you should take the work on its own, which I think, you know, increasingly, like there are, you know, recent events or have reminded us that it's difficult to do that. But I always care about people's biographies and I just can't help it. So I guess I've just needed to it. - I think it's weird to not care about the best. If you read a book that you love, like it's a work of fiction, you're gonna naturally be curious about the person who made it and if you're not curious about who made this thing that you really enjoyed or loved, that's strange to me. - I think so too, but, you know, takes all kinds. But yeah, so I learned that just from, just from sort of diving into like reading all of Nicole Krauss's books a couple times and then getting to talk to her about them and to talk to her about how she thought about, you know, writing fiction, how she thinks about life and fiction is just a like incredibly valuable thing to get to do. And then of course, you know, I don't know if you do this, but whenever I'm feeling particularly stuck, then I start doing a lot of googling for like people's writing routines as if that's going to like, if I can mimic Tony Morrison's routine that I could ever even come close to being able to write like her, which is like-- - What was her routine? - Now I'm not remembering it, but I think that there was something about like, I think that she used to get up really early, maybe like 4.30 in the morning. And if I'm remembering correctly, I think that she sometimes would take herself away. And like, this could be, this could be totally incorrect, so we'll have to fact check me. But I think that she sometimes would go to a hotel, but regardless of who this is that I'm remembering, like, you know, I don't even end up emulating them because I do think you sort of can only write the way that you can write, but something about reading other people's processes, it's like, I think that I can get better through osmosis or something. So I'd, you know, I would spend some of the interview being like, but what exactly are you doing? And the author's like, I'm sitting in front of my computer and typing out words, like, that is all it comes down to. But-- - Well, if you ever, if you ever want to profile me before the interview-- - That was your process. - We could do a huge photo shoot in my garage. I'll be sitting here in like shorts and a t-shirt. I'm sure the Vanity Fair audience would be thrilled. - You write, you write, like, are you a morning writer or a night writer or what are you? - Yeah, whenever I can fit it in. - Yeah. - Like, that's the stage of my life and the chaos of my life. Like, I don't have, like, many days I don't write, not because I don't want to, but because I'm just too busy like trying to like survive, you know? But I think the time that I could do it every day is first thing in the morning, but I exercise first thing in the morning. - Right. - And I gotta be honest, exercise is more important to me than writing. It's just, if I don't do the exercise, I can't write anyway. Like, I'm wired that way. Like, I have to move or I feel like a crazy person. - Do you run? - I hike. - Okay, yeah. - Like, I gotta go for that. I gotta get outside and like, touch grass. - Yeah. - And like, have a moment. And like, if I get up and then the day gets going, I can't do that. So, I don't know. I feel like I would have to sacrifice my health to be like an everyday writer and I don't want to sacrifice my health. - Yeah, and it does, I mean, it does always feel like there's just, you sort of always have to let something go. Like, when I'm doing my best writing and my most amount of writing, the house is just like, you know, total mess. Like, there's, you know, there are so many things that have, it has become total chaos around me. And my inbox is like overflowing and there's just, you know, there's really only so many hours in the day. So, it's something's got to give when there are limited hours. - So, the myth makers feels like, at least like, it's got like a veil of autobiography to it. It's about a young journalist named Sal, Salalay. What is the origin of the name Salalay? - It's sort of one of those names that has a ton of different possible origins. I think that I reverse engineered it. So, I started writing this book when I was 22. And Sal has been Sal the entire time. And I think that she was Salal and then I found a longer name for her. And so, I'm sure that it has a real origin, but it has totally, it has totally disappeared for me. But I remember there being various, you know, it's not a very common name. - So, so Sal is a journalist. She's living in New York, sort of like fits your own bio. And at age 22, I believe goes to a reading at the New York Public Library and meets an older author, man in his 70s, named Martin Keller. And they have an exchange at this reading where he basically tells her all the things that a young, ambitious, impressionable 22-year-old want to be writer and journalist would want to hear. He's like, you're a writer, you've got it, that kind of thing. - Yeah. - And then she subsequently goes on to realize that I think after he died, she reads something he had written near the end of his life and it is like a kind of references. She thinks it might be about her. - Yeah. - Do I have that right? - Yes, yeah, completely. And this, I've, you know, from digging around a little bit, this has some, this particular scene has some roots in your own lived experience. I think you went to a reading at the New York Public Library and had a somewhat similar exchange with someone. - Yeah, so I was working as an editorial assistant, another one of my really wonderful professors, Paula Farge, who was very sadly not with us anymore, was doing, either he had just finished or he was going to be starting a Coleman Fellowship and there was a reading series of former Coleman Fellowship, Coleman Fellows, who were doing readings. And so he had invited me to one of these. And then at the after party, he was talking to his friends and I didn't know anybody. And so I was doing, you know, the thing that you do of just sort of standing awkwardly near the food. And this older man came up and started chatting and I had no idea who he was, but we had a really nice conversation for maybe 30 minutes or an hour. And he was sort of similarly making these wonderful grand pronouncements about all kinds of things. But one of the things that he said was, your life is only going to become more beautiful than it is now. And my life did not feel beautiful to me at the time. And this felt, but that felt like a really cool thing to be told by somebody. And then afterwards, my professor came up and said, like, do you know who that was? That was Hampton Fancher, who was the Blade Runner screenwriter. And like I had maybe seen Blade Runner once, but I wasn't, you know, it didn't mean a huge amount to me except that he was a famous guy who had sort of like, I don't know. - It's sort of funny, it's sort of funny that the screenwriter of Blade Runner is telling you that you're going to have nothing but a beautiful future. - I know, I know. I mean, everything about it was just sort of one of those like surreal New York nights that was made more sort of surreal and dreamy by the amount of cheap wine that I was drinking. And I had been trying to write a book since I had graduated and was not really getting anywhere because I was doing a lot of socializing as you do when you're 21 and 22, anywhere, but definitely in New York. And that interaction just somehow gave me like, a concrete thing to sort of tether this book that had felt very amorphous to this interaction. And then I started thinking like, well, what if it had been, you know, what if he had been some incredible novelist or a novelist at all and what if, yeah. So it just sort of spiraled from there. - Okay, and so like without spoiling anything, Sal, the heroine of your novel, learns that this older author whom she'd had this exchange with has died. He has written a story that she thinks might possibly be about her. She's kind of going through a rocky period in her young life with her relationship. Not sure if she wants it to continue. Her journalism career takes a hit when she does a profile of somebody who I think what lies to her or there's something about this guy that she misses. And it's sort of like a black mark on her resume kind of thing. And so she then has kind of a falling out with her boyfriend and decides to take off in pursuit of I guess this would be a journey piece. This is a novel about a journey piece. - It would be a granny piece. - She's trying to find out at least first, you know, at the beginning she's trying to find out like, did this guy write about me? - Right. - Was I his muse and you know, he's kind of like, we should give people maybe a better idea of who this fictional writer is, Martin Keller. He's kind of a cult author. Is that what you would call him? He's got this novel called Evergreen that he published is kind of his thing. It's like his best book and it's the one that people responded most strongly to and it's what he's known for if he's known at all. But he's not like a, he's not like a titan of literature or anything like that. And then he's also, also had a career in academia. So he's influenced and mentored a lot of younger writers. - Yeah, yeah. And it's one of those things where when I don't know, when I was younger, I thought sort of that every, there were only so many authors in the world and all of them were famous. And you know, anybody who had any success was somebody who you would know their name. But if you go back through and you look up major prizes and bestsellers from various years, so many people just sort of fall into the, I don't know, into a similar space that Martin occupied. And so I found that really interesting, especially as I was embarking on, you know, trying to be a part of the literary world. - So Sal goes in pursuit of Martin's widow. Her name is Moira. They have a daughter named Caroline. And she's doing this kind of delicate work that journalists have to do, especially when they're like basically profiling somebody posthumously, especially if they've died recently, you know, where you have to sort of make contact and see if they're open to an interview and do they wanna talk about this person who has departed? And we kind of follow her into this new phase of her life where she is kind of winging it, living upstate. She does get access to Moira, who is a theoretical physicist. - And then it is discovered in the course of things that Martin had a previous relationship. - Yeah. - And was married, and I'm blanking on the name. It's not Lydia, it's Lillian, there we go. So, you know, there are twists basically. And again, we don't wanna like, I feel like so much of the joy of the novel is kind of getting to experience these. But he had, I'll take it this far. He had a previous relationship with Lillian. She herself had literary ambitions. Their relationship was happy until it kind of wasn't, Martin sort of fell into an affair with Moira, and then after Martin and Lillian broke up, she died soon after, in a car accident, or due to injuries sustained in a car accident. I hope that's not too much to tell, but the reason I want to at least get to that point is because I read in prep that part of the inspiration for this particular plot twist was Philip Roth. And his marriage to, I believe, Margaret Matinson, one of his, it was either his first wife or one of his first wives, I forget. But this happened to him, where he was in a relationship with a woman, they break up, and then she dies in a car accident pretty soon after, right? - Yeah, and I'm trying to remember when various things, like when various plot points occurred in my writing, but if I'm remembering correctly, I think that I only found out about that relationship after this had been, after this was written, which I don't know, when you're writing, do you have that thing of sort of like everything in the world seems to be about your book? And like, it's a, so I was in sort of one of those, so if anything, and maybe I had heard about it at some way, but I hadn't sort of, it hadn't stuck, but Philip Roth and his writing, you know, like he was one of my just total favorite authors for many years, and so him as a figure sort of was looming large over the book, and then I did become interested in all of these literary men, and the women who sort of existed in their wake, I was also like, I love Nabokov, and his relationship with Vera was something that I thought about a lot in college in the years afterwards, and just the relationships between writers and their partners, I think is really interesting, especially when both are writers, which is not something that I experience personally, and maybe that was part of it too, was just sort of sinking into an experience that I haven't ever had. - Yeah, your husband's too busy like gutting the house, and he's doing carpentry and like building shelves and all this manly stuff. He doesn't have time to write novels. - No, I know, although Hemingway was hunting when he wasn't, but yeah, maybe he'll write a novel at some point, but I think probably I can safely say that I will be the only novelist in this relationship going forward. - Well, and it's like this particular era, I feel like the mid to late 20th century male writer of a certain stature, like the Norman Mailers, Philip Roths, Saul Bello, John Cheever. 'Cause I went through a Philip Roth phase, and you get really into a wonderful, super gifted writer. I mean, problematic in all these ways that are pretty well documented at this point, particularly with respect to his treatment of women, and that stuff has been aired, that dirty laundry, I feel like has been aired pretty thoroughly, but super gifted and like an important writer in the American literary canon. And yet when I read about him, and especially when I read about Saul Bello, or read Saul Bello, like A, it feels really dated. - Right. - Like I read Herzog during the pandemic, and was just like, oh my God, like this one, like the National Book Award, or maybe the Pulitzer or something, I'm like, this couldn't even get published today. This would get you canceled, you know? - Yeah. - But it's like, I don't know, it feels like a different planet that these guys lived on, and like the entitlement, and like the sort of, the privilege enjoyed by men was really pronounced. That's my read of it anyway. Do you have the same read similarly? - Totally, yeah, I think so. And I think, so in early drafts of the book, the Martin's character was extremely successful. He was more of a Roth guy. But then I just started getting more interested in the idea of failure, and in what it means, because Martin doesn't feel like he succeeded in becoming the kind of author that he wanted to be. He didn't get the recognition that he wanted. And that ended up feeling more interesting for me to sort of look at like what if you are given everything? Like what if you have, you know, the so many of the components of, you know, what someone needs to be successful and you still can't be for whatever reason. And also that success can look really different to different people, and that's the metrics for success can change. Martin has written, I think it's three books by the time he dies, and written and published them. And, you know, to me having not published any books when I started writing this novel, like that seems like an incredible accomplishment, but I have talked to people, I've talked to authors who I think of as incredibly successful and incredibly well read, and so often it doesn't feel like enough to them. And I can see that with myself, you know, like when I started writing this book, just getting it published was such a, it seemed so impossible, and to have that should be like the end all be all, but it's not, you know, like you still want, you want more people to be reading it or at least I want more people to be reading it. I want, you know, there's always, there's always something more. And so I think sort of pursuing that feeling with Martin then in the context of like the literary man of the 20th century was fun. So one of the aspects of Sal's personal trajectory over the course of this novel is her reckoning with alcohol. Like there are scenes in the book where she, you know, has too much to drink as one does, you know, at that age and says and does stupid things. It's part of the reason why her relationship blows up because like her inhibitions are lowered and she sort of just says what's actually on her mind. By the way, never a good idea, never a good idea. But I read, I want to say I read some sort of wellness article or journal that you had written where you talk about stopping drinking yourself. - Yeah. - And I'm curious to know about that. And in particular about how that has impacted you creatively because I'm at an age, like I've never had a, I mean, I drank a ton, like way too much in college, but was never like, I don't know, I could always put it down. And I, not one of those people who I have, like if I have one, I have to have 20. I'm not that way. But as I've gotten older, I just can't do it because if I have like two drinks, I feel like shit. And so I rarely drink at all. - Yeah. - And I feel like it's better for me across the board health-wise, creatively, productively and everything. But as somebody who maybe had like a more pronounced struggle with it, I'm curious to know what that has been like and how it's impacted you creatively. - Yeah, it's interesting because I also wasn't, I was somebody who once I started drinking then I just wanted to keep drinking 'cause it was so much fun. And then, you know, then it always tips into not fun. But I wasn't like I didn't drink alone. I didn't, it was always a social lubricant for me. And I was a lightweight and I didn't feel like one. And so it just, like it almost always tipped into a bad thing and I was drinking so often. And when I decided to stop, like it, I've tried to talk, figure out what exactly it was that did it, but it really was just sort of like, you know, I've heard people talk about growing up religious and losing the faith. And that is sort of the closest thing that this feels like to me where for so many years, because I started drinking in high school, I needed it all the time, like, you know, for any party and for, to talk to strangers. And I couldn't imagine not drinking, you know, like I would get like an ear infection or something and then be like, well, I guess I can't see anybody for three weeks 'cause I'm on steroids and you can't drink on them or like antibiotics or whatever. So like, I guess I'll just be a hermit. And then one day it just stopped. Like I just didn't want to drink anymore, which is really lucky. I know that a lot of people have a much more pronounced struggle trying to not drink. - Did you have like a moment of clarity or was it literally just like, I don't, I'm done with this? Did you have like a really bad hangover or something? - I did have a really bad hangover, but I'd had so many, really bad hangovers. So I don't know, I don't know what it was. I had like one, it wasn't even a particularly messy night, you know, like I had, it just, I don't, I don't, maybe it was just like, I'd hit enough times or I'd hit an age. I was like 25, maybe some part of my brain developed in a way that it hadn't previously, but it's how I could write this book. There's no way that I would have been able to write the book if I had been drinking the way, you know, the way I had been because so many of my hours were dedicated to either drinking or recovering from drinking. So it eats up a lot of time as it turns out. - Yeah, and I think there was just so, I had so little self-reflection for all of those years because whenever I was uncomfortable, I had this thing that could take me out of myself. And then, and I think it also, you know, there's like so much shame around drinking and the embarrassing things, or at least there was for me, the embarrassing things that I would say to people or do or whatever, and just feeling anxiety, you know, about losing chunks of like your existence, like that there were these memories and there were conversations that I had that were just lost to me. And so then over the years after I stopped, I think discomfort can be a really useful thing and sitting in discomfort and having uncomfortable interactions with other people that aren't either exacerbated by or muffled by a substance really helped me learn about who I am and learn about other people. And I think all of that is so helpful when you're writing. I think, you know, having a kind of clear critical lens just helped me a ton with writing. And then of course, there are incredible writers who, you know, literally die because of alcoholism and they're, they manage to be, you know, really, really, really in thinkers at the same time, but I definitely was not one of those. I was, you know, I have found things that I wrote while I was drunk and it's just like the most mortifying thing you could possibly imagine. - But I feel like even the writers who are like functional alcoholics throughout their lifetime, when you read the biographies, they typically would write sober. - Right. - It is very rare. Like Bukowski, I want to say, I would have like a couple of glasses of wine while he was working, but he wasn't like smashed. - Right. - It's like, I don't think it's, I mean, it's really hard to write while you're under the influence. - Yeah, we're very easy, like dangerously easy. And then... - Well, yeah, hard to write well. Hard to write well. - Yeah, right. - And like, I think too, like I want to say, I remember, I want to say I read an interview with the Cohen brothers and they were talking about cannabis and how it's influenced their creative process and how, I think one of them, they were kind of like, it was like tongue-in-cheek. I'm totally working for memory here. So I have to asterisk it. - Yeah. - But I want to say they said like, yeah, you could probably write like one good screenplay while you're high, but it's like diminishing returns. - Right. - So it just, at a certain point, it just becomes impossible. Like you might get lucky once and like write like a really good novel while you're like, you know, 24 and drinking wine or something. But that's rare. (laughs) - Yeah, and it just, yeah, I think I also just maybe have like, my brain is a little fragile. Like I was pretty prone to like full blackouts, which not everybody is. And I, you know, from not a huge amount of alcohol. And I feel really affected by caffeine and just kind of like all substances feel like they just hit me pretty hard. And I, like the first thing that goes is my capacity for conversation or any kind of intelligent thought. And so it does feel like maybe certain brains, you know, can handle substances in different ways. But mine is not, I've got a wimpy brain maybe. - And the writing of the myth makers coincided with stopping drinking. - Yeah, so I mean, I had started it when I was, I started it when I was 22 and it was published when I was 31. So I had been trying to write it, but I think it only really kind of came together as a book in the years after stopping. - Yeah, that makes sense. - Yeah. - And good for you. - I mean, it's good to be healthy, right? You'll write more books this way. - Yeah, yeah, hopefully that's the hope. It just, it feels like, I can't remember who said this, but it's that idea of like not taking, there are so many ways to shortcut experiences and to shortcut intimacy and connection. And it felt like, you know, the relationships that I was having while drinking weren't, you know, they were not lasting ones. And it felt like getting rid of that shortcut was beneficial in all ways. And yeah. - You're like, oh shit, now I have to feel things. - I know, well, yeah. And then, and there's like a lot of, you know, a lot, even having not, you know, had to sort of like struggle through the stopping alcohol and, you know, like not being in a program or like I haven't done AA, but a lot of the like mourning and like, you know, sadness and all of that kind of comes at you pretty hard just because it's been like deferred for a long time. So when it shows, it's, you know, it's like an intense thing just being a human. So. - Sure is, it sure is. So what are you working on now as this book is like, you know, in its life cycle, it's in year two. So you're out in paperback now. Are you, I know you're working for VF and you're probably doing some sort of journey piece or profile for them. And then are you working on any other book projects? - I am, I'm working on another novel and I started it sort of in the in-between moments when the myth makers was out on submission, you know, when it was out to agents and then when it was out to editors and then when my editors were making edits, I started this other thing that takes place in San Francisco and I have really been enjoying working. I feel like I have to knock on wood because it felt like the myth makers didn't feel, sometimes I really enjoyed working on it but it didn't ever feel easy and I always had sort of like a good amount of angst around it. And this thing that I'm working on right now, I just feel good about. So I don't know if that's a good or bad sign but I've been saying that to my husband who's like the recipient of most of my writing angst and I've been saying I just feel good about it and then I had a day recently where I didn't feel so good which sort of like maybe put me a little bit more at ease about the good feelings. Like it was a little anxiety provoking when it just felt good all the time. - Yeah, like this is bad. I'm feeling good, this is terrible. - Yeah, yeah, truly, truly. So yeah, so I had a hard day and now I'm feeling good about it again. And I do feel like maybe that is something that's like a good thing to learn is to just, if you feel good, just let yourself feel good but that's hard too. - Yeah, it is. And then magazine wise, you got anything cooking? - I do. I can't really talk about things that I'm working on in progress but I have been spending a lot of time looking at property records which is just so fascinating. You can learn so much about a person from their publicly available property records. And so I've been in the Hamptons, not in the Hamptons but somewhere else fun. - All right, well it is a pleasure to meet you and to talk with you and I congratulate you on your debut novel. It's paperback release and I wish you well in your magazine work and with this next book. - Oh, thank you so much. And this has been such a nice conversation so thank you for having me on. - All right, there we go folks. That was my conversation with Kazaya Weir, author of the debut novel, The Myth Makers, available from Mary Sue Ruchi Books. Now out in trade paperback. For more on Kazaya, check out her website, kazayaweir.com. Follow her on Twitter and Instagram, read her work in Vanity Fair and other magazines. One more time, her debut novel is called The Myth Makers, available in trade paperback wherever you get books. Go get your copy right now. Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast wherever you listen, hit the subscribe button. Follow me on social media, TikTok, Instagram, Twitter and blue sky. Sign up if you would please for my weekly email newsletter over at substack, bradlisty.substack.com. Join the other people Patreon community over at patreon.com/otherpplpot, help keep this show going into the future. If you have two minutes, please, pretty please, rate and review this show, give it a rating, write a review wherever you listen, Spotify, Apple podcasts, what have you. It helps the show find new listeners. If you would like to get another people t-shirt or join my book club, you can do that at otherppl.com. And if you wanna read my latest book, it is a novel called Be Brief and tell them everything. It is available in trade paperback, ebook and audiobook editions. I narrate the audiobook, so check that out. If you wanna check that out, it's a book. I wrote it, it's a novel and it is called Be Brief and tell them everything. Okay, so on Thursday, I will be back with Mira Gonzalez for a new episode of Brad and Mira for the Culture, where we talk about what's happening in pop culture. I don't know much, Mira knows everything, she explains it to me and so on and so forth. So, stay tuned. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) [ Silence ]
