Only Murders in my Mind
Episode 30 Cyber Crime and Cozy Mystery: Suzy Bussell’s Writing Journey
Hello. This is John Bissett, producer and editor of the podcast. Unfortunately we ran into some technical problems during the recording of this episode, so the audio isn't as clear as previous episodes. This has been fixed for the future, so I apologise and hope you still enjoy today's episode. Thanks again for tuning in. Welcome to Only Murders in My Mind. A random thought production. Hi, I'm Carol Bissett, a crime writer, and I invite you with my co-presenters, Liz Hedgecock and Mike Jackson, each week to our conversations on All Things Murderers. Hello everyone, and welcome to this episode of Only Murders in My Mind. As usual, I have the Magnificent Liz Hedgecock. Oh, thank you. Hello. Mike, it's sat in the corner, Mike Jackson. Do you know, since it's just Mike? Not the Magnificent, Mike, Dave, nor the wonderful Mike Jackson. Kim was sat in the corner. Oh, we all know you're wonderful. And today we're very lucky. We've got a guest, a writer and a business lady, generally, Susie Bustle. Hi, Susie. Hello, everybody. It's lovely to speak to you, and I know Liz knows your work. I do indeed, yes. Yes. I've got to be honest, I Googled you. I did Google you to get some information. However, you've now got converted fan. I downloaded a sample of your book and I've bought it. Thank you very much. And I would buy the others if this is anything to go by. So, you've got better sales just for coming on our podcast. Excellent. There you go. I'll go super fan. While you're winning, Susie. No, no, I really like, I like the two characters, Angus and Charlotte. And stupid me, I'm going, why is it called EXE? It's Exeter, isn't it? Because it's in Exeter. Could you tell us a bit about your series? Yeah, sure. Yeah. So, I write mysteries and they're set in and around Exeter and other parts of Devon as well. And so, yeah, the titles of the books always have ex EXE, which is the river that flows through Exeter and obviously out to Exmouth. And so, yeah, so it's a private detective series, contemporary. And they're basically two characters, one in a female who is in her sort of mid forties, approaching perimenopause. And she's a cybersecurity expert. And then the other character is Angus Darrow and he is an ex police officer who is a private investigator in Exeter. And Charlotte sort of attaches herself to him. I think that's a fair assessment. Yeah. And yeah, it's about each book is kind of a bit like a TV show. Each book is a bit like a sort of an hour episode of a series, I would say. So, they're not the longest books you're ever going to read, but there are certainly lots of escapades and they flow quite fast. And yeah, it's been really good to write about where I know as well. I think that's why I talked to your boot because I looked at it and I thought these are about the same length of my detective boots. And yeah, a lot going on. I should turn your pages, lots of action and information. So brilliant. Yeah, they are proper fast paced. And I like because I know Exeter reasonably well, even though I live up here. And I like that there's places I can think I know that place I've been there. So, do your readers talk about that? Do you have lots of kind of Devon Bay streeters? I do. And that wasn't my aim. My aim wasn't to sort of get everybody in Devon reading my book. But interestingly, I was a pretty good day, I think. I mean, it is, I do get a lot of people commenting saying they know the places and they're really happy that there's a series that is set where they know. So that I do get a lot of readers in the local area. But yeah, I get lots of other people who have visited Exeter and Devon. And they read it as well because they sort of want to revisit that. And obviously, Exeter has a university which has a lot of graduates who some have read it as well. So, excellent. Yeah, that's the mystery. And it's a lovely part of the world as well. So, yes, it's like death in paradise, only not like death in paradise. Yeah, it isn't beyond paradise since somewhere in the west country. It is. Yeah, yeah, it's down. I mean, people always, well, people that don't live there obviously associate where you live as holiday destinations, don't they, that area? Yeah. And the number of people, it's like the late district where we live in Cheshire. You know, I'd love to live in the late district and people that go holiday in your area. God, I'd love to live down there. It looks, it's beautiful. So, yeah, I can understand that. So, with your two main characters, are they both computer specialists or? No, so only one is a computer specialist, because that would be a bit of a boring story if you had put two computer experts talking to each other. One's a technophobe, and the other one's a cybersecurity expert. So, yeah. I like the kind of the odd couple dynamic in that you have Charlotte who's always like, that's Hackett. And I was just like, you know, how do I do this on my phone again? Yeah. Yeah, well, I've only just met Charlotte, but I do like a lot. And the, the, the, the lady that came in and made them tea and croissants. You know, she said, oh, she, she's, she's my cleaner. Did you say hello? Yeah. Oh, yeah. But yes, but looking after her, you know, shouldn't have these men in your room. Exactly. I think she sees herself as an unofficial chaperone. He does. I get that feeling, but all, all, yes, I've read about five or six chapters, and all ready connecting with these characters. And can I just say, um, the, the bit about the young man that's gone missing who's on the spectrum. Real insight there. So that was absolutely brilliant nail that. I don't know where you got your research from. And, um, the other one was, um, I'm just trying to think now there was another bit in it and I thought, it'll come to me. There was a little bit and I thought, oh, that, oh, yes, I know what it was. The students, when he went to talk to the students, their reaction to him. Now, I, I train people for a living and I went to a college somewhere in the Northwest. Can't remember it was last year, the year before, that's exactly the reaction I got. They were all like looking at the phones and who is this person? Why don't they just go away? So I empathized with with Angus there. Absolutely. But you see, you deal with students, don't you, by the sounds of it? Yeah, my day job is teaching. So, um, yeah, I know how young people react to old people. And I have teenage children as well. So that always helps too. And, um, yeah, so it's, uh, it's quite helpful to, uh, to use some of the sort of ways they are with people to put in the books. And actually there's, uh, one of the later books, I've got, um, a teenager who's on a video game. And, uh, I wanted to sort of write some texts about him on that video game. And I wasn't quite sure what to write. And I just listened in on my son. Literally like I said, as he sort of spoke to it, to a friend that he was gaming with online. And, and so I haven't told him that yet, but, uh, I'm like, for that, you know, that's a good hint, actually. You did that, don't you, John, play games online, not, you know? Yeah, yeah. So the other one that I think it's just come up for pre-order of the Jane Austen Tea Room mystery, is it a new thing for you? Yeah. So I've just, uh, actually came out on the first of August. So, uh, we can bag it on your release. You can buy it now. Yes. Um, it's, uh, totally different. So my extra books are all, uh, lots of cybersecurity and, uh, very fast pays private investigator. My new series is a paranormal cozy crime set also in Devon in Sidmer in Devon. And, it's, yeah, it's very different. It's basically set around a Jane Austen Regency theme tea room, because Jane Austen visited Sidmer in 1801 as part of her sort of holiday. She also went on the same holiday to Lyme Regis and to Dorelish. Uh, and obviously Lyme Regis is quite famous if there's any, uh, fans of Jane Austen listening. Um, she, part of Persuasion, her, her last novel was set in Lyme Regis. And it's the same trip, uh, that, uh, she went on, um, when she, she just moved to Bath and then went on holiday. And, uh, yeah, and she apparently met and fell in love with someone in Sidmerth who unfortunately he died. Uh, he had to go away and, uh, he died. So, uh, apparently she was quite heartbroken, but there's not much about it. Um, because all the letters around that time were destroyed by her sister, Cassandra. So we don't know too much about it. Oh, right. So you got free license there. Why, why did, why did it change soon? So you see a real contrast from the, it does. Yes. Well, I do have, it is very different. Yeah, I, I started writing that book. Uh, the, the T-room, uh, one is Sidmerth. Um, just as something completely different. Um, and you get to the point where you kind of have to think, well, I'm either going to need to carry on. I'm going to try and publish this. So, um, I just thought I'm just going to try and publish it. And yes, it's very different. But, um, so far the, the, the small amount of feedback I've had is the readers who like my extra books, like the T-room books as well. So, um, but yeah, I am going for very different markets for those. Cause I'm, you know, the, I'm sort of going for the US market with the, the Jane Austen theme. Whereas the extra books are really very much aimed at the UK market. Cause you've done the same thing. You, you, you went from, um, writing, Liz went from writing historical, um, sort of murder mysteries. And you did some cozy murder mysteries and you've, you've done some with ghost sing as well. Haven't you? I mean, I love them. Um, I think one of the nice things about being an independent author and you're, you're an independent author as well, Susie, aren't you? Yeah. One of the nice things is that you, you can basically write what you like. If you don't have a contract saying, you have to write this book and only this type of book and, you know, that sort of thing. If you're doing, I mean, this is to Liz and to Susie, really, if that's what you're doing, have you, do you have to be careful not to alienate one audience compared to another? For example, with Susie, with all your, uh, your, your computer, modern books, are you looking for a different audience for your Jane Austen ones? Or do you think there'll some be, some crossover? I think there'll be always be a little bit of crossover because there's people who, just like the style of my writing and I don't like my books, but I think, yeah, I am, I am going for very different markets. I'm definitely aimed at the US market. Yeah, but I think readers are more resilient and they will read a wider range of stuff than people give them credit for. I mean, yes, there are people who will say, I only read serial killer thrillers. And you think, wow, that's so many interesting choices, but yeah, I mean, I found that, you know, I didn't expect that people who read my historical would also read, for example, my cosy or my ghost suspense or, you know, read the stuff with a magical bookshop in it, but a surprising amount of them do. So I think if they like you, they will try what you write. I'm going to say that it's, it's on the back of what you've, your fan base that, that, that, that like you and like what you write to start with. You think that's the case, Suzy? Yeah, definitely. Yeah, definitely. And I do intend to carry on with the extra books. And I do have other story ideas for more sort of technology based sort of suspense books. So yeah, it's, it's not something that I'm just disregarding. I just, after sort of four or five years of writing the extra series, I wanted to try and just do something a little bit different. So yeah. Now I'm going to ask you what every writer gets asked. What got you into writing in the first place? Well, I've got, I'm quite unusual. I feel like I'm quite unusual because lots of people always, lots of writers always say, Oh, I, you know, from the age of three, when I could pick up a pen, I knew I was going to be a writer. And it wasn't like that for me at all, actually. I, I didn't start writing until I was 30. And I'm in just in my early 50s now. So it wasn't something, and it wasn't something where I thought, Oh, I really want to be an author. I, although the signs were there, because I actually remember being primary school, looking out the window being bored and hating school, but making up stories to try and pass the time in my head. And I would just constantly do that. And I can even remember when I was 14, thinking there's something wrong with me that I'm just making up these stories in my head. I've got to try and stop doing this, you know, not realizing that that's what writers do. You know, I went to university and, you know, got a proper job and everything. And then it was, it was JK Rowling, actually, it's her fault. She got old JK. It was her inability to get the Harry Potter books out really quickly. And I was sort of, so I got into writing Harry Potter fan fiction, actually. And that's how I started writing. Because I could use other people's characters, I didn't have to think up my own characters. And what I wrote was absolutely atrocious, but it got me into writing. And then I quickly moved on to my own characters. And I wrote a couple of books sort of after that. And then I had a very long break, but I started writing again in 2018. And been very successful by the looks of all your figures on the Amazon. Well done. Thank you. So what sparked the Lockwood and Darrow series? What was the energy? Have a German for an idea? Or did it kind of come to you fully formed? No, no, it was very piecemeal. So that the extra series, yeah, it's called Lockwood and Darrow. The extra series, I really, because I teach computer science in my day job, I really wanted to try and teach, mainly women, but maybe that's just because I'm a woman, I just wanted to teach adults, some cybersecurity and some computing. And writing a sort of a factual book wasn't really something that I wanted to do. I wanted to try and incorporate into fiction, because that's what I love writing. So that's what I did. So the initial idea was to try and have a female cybersecurity expert who could put little bits of information in real life, information in to a fictional story so that people could learn along the way. And all the technology in my books is real. So I don't make any sort of techno bubble up like science fiction. I might sort of speed things up, but yeah, everything is real in it. And that was my main aim. And obviously I needed more than one character. And I had a private investigator because a close family member was a private investigator after being a policeman. And that gave me the initial spark of the idea of having a private investigator. Yeah, I like I like this. I was having an IT. I'm sorry, I shouldn't use the word geeks. But I don't mind my old family. So you know, I say it lovingly. But yeah, I've got one in my detective books. We've he's he's an IT, you know, sort of specialist that can get information from where he shouldn't and that sort of thing. I don't know. I am IT naive. So I just say the basic stuff and anything else I have to ask my son about if there's any ever go any deeper. And I could tell from reading what I've read already that yours is coming from a knowledge-based background. So you've you've done that. So are you a plotter or a pantser? Oh, coming in with a difficult questions here. I'm predominantly a pantser. Yeah, I try to plot and I have tried to plot, but I always just change it so completely. And I lose motivation, actually, if I if I plan too much, I'm just kind of like, well, I've I've planned it now. You know, what's the point in writing it? I've got the plan. So the two books, I've in Sydney, they have a little bit more planning, but I'm still panting most of it. You're going to say something. Well, in some ways, I think Liz and Carol ought to be waiting for me to ask now's this question. I'm fascinated with the whole AI set up. So how much of that comes into your books? Not much, because it was they're all written before the generative AI that we all know now was released. So yeah, it was yeah, I don't use it a lot. And I yeah, it's not something that I've put in them. I don't really intend to do too much about AI in it. Although I I listen to Joanna Penn's podcast a lot and she's the creative pen and she's always talking about it. And so I know what it's capable of. But we've all been using AI for a very long time. Oh, yes. You know, it's just that the chat dbt style that's new. So yeah, Mike is very passionate about it. I think I think the whole area of AI is fascinating. And I think there's there's an whole area there for us to discuss, not today, and maybe not even on the podcast, because I just upset people about the role of AI and writing. Yeah, something I talk about star writers groups sometimes, only because of a nice, safe, friendly bunch or they won't beat me up. That's what they want you to think, Mike. From my perspective as a techie, I know and I write in the programming language that, for example, chat GPC and a lot of the generative AI is written in. And I studied it even, you know, sort of 30 years ago at university. Yeah. So I know and it has so has been around that long, if not longer. But I think what frustrates me is a lot of people don't understand how it works. They just think it's copying and pasting. And it really isn't. And, you know, I mean, you're so right because I hear so many people say to me, well, it's plagiarism. And I say, no, no, it can't be. It's not scraping words from it's just using words and putting them or tokens as they're called and just putting them together with some very sophisticated algorithms. Yeah. I think the biggest threat from AI is that we're just going to end up with everything being very mediocre. I think, you know, and because they're running out of data to feed into the AI engines and it's, yeah, everything just tends to be a bit average. So I think writers shouldn't be worried in the fact that we're going to be able to come up with more ideas as humans than an AI might be able to write quicker than us. But we're going to be able to come up with those really good ideas. And that's what we need to concentrate on. And the older you get, the more ideas you have, isn't that right? I've ever been in the room now. I do find something like, because I think I think you've used this, Susie, if I'm not mistaken, that's 11 labs to do some of the voiceovers, some sophisticated stuff that's happening there. And I've been taking some short stories and using 11 labs to have those narrated. Yes. Yeah. I've used AI voice to do, to put some free, a short story on my YouTube channel and chapter of one of my books, because humans are so expensive. So yeah, so it's, yeah, the audio AI is absolutely amazing now. And it's only going to get, it's only going to get more and more sophisticated. It's an area that we're going to have to keep coming back and discussing, and not necessarily ask for. But I mean, generally, people have come back and discuss this, because video is coming along, picture generation is very good, audio is very good. It's just going to get much, much better. And we'll open up all sorts of opportunities and fears for some people as well. I think so. I've got to mention the Snowshoe Cats. Yes. I thought I was a cat lady. I'm like, I'm the mad cat woman. But I've never heard of it. They're quite a rare breed, aren't they? I don't know. Yeah. I've got two Snowshoe Cats, which we were told when we got them as kittens that they were sort of Siamese. Yeah. Right. They call from Siamese breeding. Yeah. Yeah. They've only been around for about 30 years, I think, particularly breed. But yeah, they are. Everyone's going to have to Google it now. He's listening. Yeah. Because me and Elizabeth got cats, but my cat hates me. I say this on a regular basis on the podcast. I've never even seen your cat. Exactly. Yeah. That's because she hates me. I know I was going to ask you, are you a Jane Austen fan, given that you have a Jane Austen T-room mystery series? Oh, yes. Yes. I definitely am a Jane Austen fan. Yes. I became a Jane Austen fan at the age of 15. When I was at school studying for my GCSE literature and we were studying books, I won't mention the books because lots of people love these books and I hate them. And it's going to make me very unpopular. But we were forced to study these books, which I hated, and it's put me off book clubs for life as well. But we had the one chance to write an essay for our GCSE that had to be submitted for our coursework on any sort of literary author. And I didn't know, I didn't really read much. I'd sort of given up reading for pleasure because of what we were forced to read. And my mum suggested I read Pride and Prejudice. And that would be a really good book to do for an essay for your English literature at GCSE. And that was it. I moved straight on to sensibility and I wrote my essay and I got an A. It's the only A I got. It was meant to be. And after I've done the essay, I moved on to all her other books as well. So, yeah, massive fan. I've always been a massive fan of hers. And in fact, so I was on holiday and bath a couple of weeks ago and I was outside one of the places that she lived. In fact, the place that she lived when she first came to sit with. And straight outside there and, you know, dragging in my family along to all the places that Jane Austen went in bar. So, it's got to be done. Which one is your favourite? Now, well, it alternates between persuasion and Pride and Prejudice. Sometimes it's persuasion because it's just a little bit mature. And the theme of the second chance between the couple in that one is really endearing. And then I just, I love Pride and Prejudice as well, because it was set in heart picture. And most of it set in heart picture, which is where I was living at the time when I was 15. I first read it. So, that was amazing. So, yeah, it's both, really. Obviously. Oh, sorry. Can I hear you say you were a fan of JK Rowling or just a JK Rowling? Yeah. Oh, great. I loved all those Harry Potter books. And the thing, when they were being published, I was a head teacher of Big Primary School. And I used to love seeing the children sitting on the playground reading Harry Potter. She did more for reading in primary schools than anybody's done for a long, long time. Yeah, I'm a great fan of Harry Potter and JK Rowling. Yes. Yes. I wanted to see what all the fuss was about, you know, oh, it can't be that good. I do know what it was. So, thinking about the, you were saying about one of the things you like about persuasion is the more mature characters. Was that a conscious decision with making Charlotte and Angus, you know, perhaps slightly older than your average protagonist? It, that wasn't. It was my, my characters tend to be a little bit older just because I'm that little bit older now. And I forget, I can kind of forget what it's like to be young. So, oh, you're still a baby. There's no hope for some of us, Carol, isn't it? I think with older characters, you get, you can have more of a backstory as well. Yes. So, younger characters, obviously, they have real life concerns, et cetera, absolutely. But with older people, there's ex-husband on ex-wives and bad jobs and problems that they've had and kids. And so, yeah, there's a lot more material if you've got an older character. Yeah, there's more baggages than that when you think about it. Yeah. When you describe Angus, some of the people have listened to the Sun regular basis, I was in a murder mystery room a few weeks ago, and it was run by two ex-detectives from down south. And Angus is one of them. You described him to a, to a taser. Every time I read your books now and visualize Angus, this policeman's going to come into my mind. So, thank you for that. It was very nice. Take it. You see, that's a good thing. I think that's, I think that's an accident. Yes, but your happy place. I see about the bit about Virginia's glasses up his nose. Yes. So, what's, what's next? So, Izzy, do you think? So, I'm currently writing the second T-room book, Sense of Myth, and, which is very helpful at the moment because it's Sigma Folk Festival this week, and the second book is set during the Folk Festival, actually. So, I've been doing lots of research watching Morris Dancers and such, which I love. I love, I love watching Morris Dancers, and I'm also writing the seventh book in the Exeter series as well. So, that is, yeah, I know I shouldn't be writing them both at the same time, but I kind of am. How many books do you, do you get through a year? I mean, right, not read? Only about two, which I know some people say, wow, that's amazing, but my books are fairly short. There's 40,000 words. So, yeah, I don't, I probably write the equivalent of what other people write one book if they're writing 80 to 100,000. Yeah, yeah, I try as I may, I can't seem to write longer books. Your new series of similar-sized books, similar length books. Slightly more, 50,000 books for that one, yeah. I think the thing is that sometimes you find the length, and that's your kind of your sweet spot, if you know what I mean. Yeah, so my books are usually between 45 and 55 hours, some books, some words. So, yeah, I know where you're coming from. Mine finish when they come to an end. Yeah, yeah. You know, I don't try and pat them out. They come to a natural conclusion. So, I finished them. I suspect it's the same for you. Yeah, I mean, I find, I have had sort of, you know, reviews and comments saying that they're not long enough. I mean, usually it's in a good way, saying it wasn't long enough. Yeah, yeah. And, but, and I have thought about, you know, but sort of trying to make them longer. But I think it would just completely change my style and that- Burmater, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Maybe the thing, I will write books that are longer, but yeah. But your parts are very fast-paced and you have a lot going on. So, and if you, if you kind of, you know, added more other stuff, that would kind of slow the pace down, which, you know, would make a different book, I think. Yes. I think if you've got, you know, a good following and people love your books, you just do what comes naturally. Yeah. You know, that's, that's the thing. What do you family think of your writing? Are they, are they dead proud of you? Yeah, my, my husband's absolutely fantastic and supportive and I couldn't ask for, honestly, he's so helpful. And he does, he does read my books and he's very good at sort of not commenting too much and just making sure that there's nothing glaringly wrong, but he, he tends to sort of leave it all up to me. You know, rather than sort of say, you should do this or you should do that. Well, I'd have the opposite reactions to my husband doesn't go anywhere near mine. Horses for courses, that's what I say. Oh, well, he's been absolutely brilliant talking to Susie and maybe we can all get together again and talk about your new series. When you've got two or three under your belt, that'd be good. Yeah. If you, you know, if you want to come back on, that would be lovely. I would love to. Yeah. So thank you so much. I really enjoyed talking to you. Thank you. You have been listening to Only Murders in My Mind, a random thought production produced by John Bissett. The music in peril was composed and recorded by OM Studio Strings.