The Cārvāka Podcast

Vinesh Phogat Weight Cut

In this podcast, Kushal speaks with Varun Sanyal about weight cutting in combat sports. They discuss the entire process of weight cutting and what exactly went wrong with the weight cut of Vinesh Phogat. They also talk about the recently concluded UFC 305 PPV.

Follow Varun: Twitter: @varunsanyal Instagram: @varunsanyal

#UFC305 #vineshphogat #MMA

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Duration:: 1h 5m
Broadcast on:: 19 Aug 2024
Audio Format:: mp3

Now, as everyone, welcome to the Charvok Podcast. This is Kushal Meera. Okay. So, the Olympics are done, whatever was there for the Indian contingent at least and congratulations to everyone who won a medal. I know we don't win a lot of medals and fortunately Indians don't tend to win a lot of medals and there are multiple reasons for that, but that is not the discussion today. So, for those who don't know, today's podcast is going to focus on a very specific subset that was triggered because of the entire saga around what went down in Vinesh Fogurt's case. Today, we're not even going to talk about what happened with Vinesh and why it happened with Vinesh. Today, we're going to first talk about what weight cutting is all about. And I'll explain why I thought that we should do this is because the amount of rubbish that got pedaled, whether people were, you know, because this thing is politicized now, whether people like it or not. Haryana elections are around the corner and the ones who want to use Vinesh Fogurt's name to make sure the win-in election are going to create stories around that. The ones who want the BJP to win are going to spin stories around that. I could care less about both. I only care about what weight cutting is and I feel bad for Vinesh as a wrestler. Obviously, she's very much party to the whole political thing. And that's the least of my business. I still think she's a great wrestler. That doesn't change. Today, we're going to focus on weight cutting. And it's funny when the last time I was in Delhi and I met Varun, Varun was actually in the process of a weight cut. So, good times, good times, good times, right? So now, first of all, tell everyone, what do you do in a weight cut? How much time does it take? What precautions do you take? And what kind of tortures do you go through? Well, the right word that you use there is torture because I beat all my goodness. You saw me, when you saw me, you should have seen, I was like a zombie at this day. And oh my god, he was trying to talk and I was like giving him mumbling words. It was really tough. It was really tough. But no, you're absolutely right. In terms of all the media surrounding this, the types of things people have been saying, it's blown my mind. I remember you texted me, you're like, man, we need to do a podcast around this because the misconceptions that people have is just nuts, right? I've seen people like, you know, oh, she's so disciplined. How can she eat a lot of food? She's getting fat on the day. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. It doesn't take just one day to get fat like that. So, yeah, no, I'll definitely clear it up. So, there's two types of weight cutting, the MMA weight cutting, and then the multiple day tournaments weight cutting. So, obviously, in wrestling, it'll be multiple days. So, last year, I did the world championships for the IMAF. So, that was multiple days. So, essentially, every single day before you compete, you win in the morning, and then, obviously, you go on and compete. So, last year, before day one, so let's say, you know, the competition starts on a Friday, I weigh in on the Friday. So, the Thursday before, it's very simple. You simply cut out salts, carbs, and you restrict your water intake. Why salt in carbs? Because these are what stores water, right? So, I think it's, I mean, someone can correct me if I remember, but I believe for every gram of carb, you store about three grams of water. I think something like that. So, you want to restrict it as much as possible. So, the first day is fine. And, you know, you just cut it out, whatever excess weight. So, let's say I'm weighing in at 70 kilos, I'm walking around at about 72, 72 and a half kilos on day zero. I sweat it out, limit everything, and on day one of the competition, I'm at 70 kilos. I weigh in them. Now, people have to remember, I've depleted myself of nutrients and water, and I'm about to compete. So, it's very important that before competition, I not only eat properly, I drink properly. So, when I actually go up on stage to fight, I'm walking it around, you know, maybe 73 and a half to 74, because you're just taking it back, right? And then, yes, you lose nutrients, and you lose sweat through the process of the fight. But ultimately, what ends up happening is, after you win the next day, when you have to compete, you're heavier than you were on day zero. So, I said that I started at 72, 72 and a half on day zero. On day one of the competition, I've now gone up, because I have carbs, I have water in the system, right? Now, you also have to remember, I've just competed. So, after competing, I can't even properly rehydrate, refuel. You're basically exhausted, right? Immediately. From the venue, I remember last year, I went straight to the event, I was the last part of the day. So, I went from the venue immediately to anywhere that had a sauna. Now, last year was unique, because I was the last part of the day. All the saunas were shut, so I had to do it all school. When I was on the treadmill, I literally took all the layers I could wear. I mean, a winter jacket, thermals, you know, sweat suit, everything. And I was just running on the treadmill, sweating it all out. And again, I've not refueled, I've not rehydrated post-fight, because I'm heavier than I was on day zero. Now, I go into day two, I weigh in, you know, after basically killing myself on the scale, and I have to compete again. And remember, again, I've depleted myself, so I have to refuel all over again. Now, by the time my second fight ends on day two, again, I have to repeat this whole process, but my weight has gone even more, it's gone up even more. So, now I'm walking at about 74, 74 and a half. And this continues to be the case as the tournament goes on. I mean, fortunately, or unfortunately for me on day three, I didn't win my fight. But yeah, you know, had I gone on to the finals, I would have had to cut like this every single day, and it would have gotten progressively harder as we went on. So, when people say that, you know, oh, she was in discipline, how can she, you know, drop the ball on this, I'm just like, man, I dare you to try just one weight cut, let alone multiple, right? And the one thing that I do have to mention is that for females, especially weight cutting is a lot harder, right? Now, I'm not going to pretend and sit here and say I'm a scientist and I understand all the medical reasons as to why, but I've had several female teammates, and every single one of them, they have difficulty when compared to me and I'm cutting weight. So these are, this is a basic explanation of how weight cutting works on a multiple day tournament. And yeah, we can dig deeper into it. So two three points that I wanted to add, as far as weight cutting is concerned, the biggest problem with weight cutting, as you rightfully pointed out, was men and women cut weight differently. And the horrifying thing is that for women, if they're menstruating, it's even harder, it's even harder. And then there are now scientific reports and scientific data that backs these things up. And what, okay, let me explain. I think this was Dili. I was at Varun's house, meeting his parents and Varun, all of us were sitting together. And I have to say, I'll never forget this. So everything is done. We're going back. And then, then I tell Varun, okay, I'm going to leave you be and I'll talk to you after a few days. And I remember Sanjeev telling me, why a few days? I'm like, he's a fighter. I know he's going to go and he's going to be slightly bruised. So I understand what they go through because I love this sport and I follow the sport. I've actually tried a weight cut once in my life. Yeah, I was that psychotic. I actually wanted to know what MMA fighters go through. And I was like, oh, Margya, man. Yeah, it's just torture. And people don't understand. So everybody who's mocking Vinh Shfogar for missing weight, shame on all of you. Shame on all of you. You don't know what it happens. I have physically personally gone through it. It is torture. But why do why do some fighters, you know, lose weight better? And they cut weight better? And they, I mean, I don't know. Even I think the amount of water inside the body, I was reading somewhere, comparison of men, comparison of men and women was done. And it's different. And so I want to read an excerpt. So women typically have lower muscle mass than men, which means lower glycogen, carbohydrate stores and less glycogen associated water stores. This is Sims 2015. So depleting glycogen is going to result in weight loss in women more broadly to women typically have about 5% less total body water than the equivalent size male, thereby reducing the amount of weight that can be lost from water loss techniques. Women also tend to sweat less than males, meaning more extreme temperatures and techniques may be required to induce significant sweat losses. Again, this is Sims 2014. And this carries with it increased risk of heat stress and related complications. Lower average sweat traits may be linked to the fact women have lower total body water. On top of this, cutting water is likely to be more challenging when a female athlete is in the high hormone phase of the menstrual cycle. I wanted to share this too. I just before menstruation, the cumulative impact of high estrogen and progesterone means women retain more water in their tissue and find it harder to sweat as blood volume drops again since 2015. In addition, core temperature is higher and this may increase the risk of heat stress from sweat loss techniques that involve raising the body temperature. For example, sweatsuits and saunas. So please try and understand different body styles respond differently, especially women have it toughest when it comes to weight cutting. I'm not saying men have a cakewalk. Men also get tortured, but women have it worse than men. So have some empathy. I'm just trying to back what Varun said because Varun goes through it himself. He's like, "Hello, my name is Varun, my name is Varun. I'm very proud of you. I'm very proud of you." No, it really drove me nuts. I'll be honest, when I'm reading all these things, I'm like, the majority of you don't even know how tough it is to go into the Olympics or represent your country in any stage. The stress of that alone is enough. Then you're adding on the weight cut and whatnot. There were all the politics. I'm like, come on, give this woman a break. She wrestled her ass off. She was incredible. Honestly, it was really sad to see that people were kind of mocking her, you know, online. And yeah, like you said, like the study said, I've had teammates who are more muscular and people who carry on more fat. And I'm talking about males. You can see the people who have less muscle mass on them. Yeah, they find it a lot harder to cut weight through sweating than the muscle mass for the reasons that that study stated. And it is very important that we have these discussions is because, obviously Varun is an active fighter. I am an active fan of mixed martial arts and I care about this sport a lot. I care about the safety of fighters a lot. I've had discussions in the past surrounding CTE2 around fighter safety, around health benefits to fighters. If you go watch my discussions with Sham Sharma, I even use the example of BCCI stating that BCCI is as private a body as it gets. And I wish the UFC actually, you know, in the future thinks about fighter safety in multiple ways and health, health benefits for fighters who fight for the UFC for X number of years. But that's not the point. But I have one more question surrounding weight cutting. Varun, in your experience, why, why not like Jordan Barrows made this point Varun? And do you think that is going to be the solution? Now, one championship has a different weight cutting method, right? They do not allow this, they do not allow this hydration technique, right? So, so what is it that one championship is doing different and and like Luke Thomas is not a fan of one championship and it's weight cutting method. Luke says, and it takes no difference. In fact, Luke just mocked it. Do you remember five fighters recently missed weight in the one championship? Yeah, and Luke was like, yeah, so much for your weight cutting technique and Luke was like going hard on them. But but don't you think what one championship does at least on paper? Well, like, would you prefer that what one championship is doing? I suppose it's like, it's a right step forward in terms of, you know, having that height. So you're talking about the hydration testing, right? To make sure that people aren't doing extreme weight cuts. It is the right step forward. But yeah, like you mentioned, you know, there were fighters still missing weight for one, who I believe there was not too long ago an entire documentary series on YouTube exposing, you know, whether the water testing and the hydration testing actually works and and its effectiveness. So yeah, in theory, I do think that it's a good practice, but I don't know if we're there yet in terms of the technology or the, you know, sort of oversight, because again, we're talking about one championship here, you know, they aren't exactly known for having the most strict guidelines, let's just say. So who knows who knows how much they're actually following through with it now. But now I want to ask your personal views on this. Right. So before I ask you for your personal views, let me explain why weight cutting is done to people who are like, yeah, you have to, you have to, I mean, Jan, a lot of this way. Now the reason ladies and gentlemen is in combat sports, clearly, if you are from a higher weight category, when you go to a lower weight category, you have an advantage, because let me explain it this way. Let's say a heavy weight punches you. Right. So the impact of that punch when you hit someone is going to be way higher. Then let's say a middle weight punching you or a straw weight punching you it's basically simple physics and many other factors involved in it. It's a lot of fighters try to, you know, go into a weight category that might be slightly lesser than their actual weight. So they push themselves through this brutal weight cutting process and wrestling allows that, mixed martial arts allows that and boxing allows that. But what boxing does, in my opinion, it's my opinion, one might disagree with me. But boxing does better than all the three, like there are three major combat sports in terms of what I follow is wrestling boxing in mixed martial arts. What boxing does better than the other do is boxing has more weight categories. So when you have more weight categories, unlike like, look at the UFC, right, they have barely got any weight, you have what you start from 125, then 135, 145, 155, then you go straight to 170, 170, you go to 180, 185, whatever, I forgot it's either 180 or 185, then you go straight to 205, and then you go to 235 plus, which is the heavy weight category. Now, there are so many gaps here, unlike boxing and ladies and gentlemen, I want you to go and look at boxing. They have weight categories after every two, three kilos. And they keep on creating these weight categories because boxing is more sensitive. I guess there are more boxers available. It could be a supply demand issue that there are not enough, you know, fighters in the mixed martial arts, but in wrestling, I don't believe that's the case. And what Jordan Barrows had said was the problem with the world wrestling federations and the Olympic Committee is that they just don't create enough weight categories. Now, Vinesh clearly was not supposed to fight 53 kgs. She's not, maybe she's not that competitive at 53. Yes, obviously, when she gets the weight advantage and ladies and gentlemen again, Vinesh being 53 and going down to 50 and fighting is not cheating. Everybody does it. So, dumb, dumb, it's not cheating. That's what fighting is all about. Why don't we explain? God, they were please. Oh, yeah. So, you know, that one drove me nuts as well. Like people say, it's cheating. It's cheating. Like, anyone who says it's cheating has never followed combat sports. Okay, and that's fine. That's fine. Not everyone has to follow it. But then to just outright say, it's cheating without understanding the sport, it's also not to me. But yeah, no, you kind of, you hit it on the head there in terms of advantages, because when you talk about wrestling or MMA, right, not only is there an advantage in punching, but you're having to carry extra weight, you know, for the duration of the entire bow. And that weighs on you over time that really weighs on you. And it makes it even tougher. And, you know, I remember, you know, I think it's two, yeah, two years ago now, the Asian Championships for IMAF. I was walking around at 77. That's my natural body weight. And I remember, I was like, okay, this is well to weight. So I'll fight at this weight, you know, little did I know that the other countries, they were all cutting weight. So by the time I get to the competition, I weigh in no problem, you know, not have to cut anything, no depletion, nothing. But by the time I get to the competition, I step in the cage, I look at my opponent, the guy is huge. He is massive. He is big, the jig dude. And I remember shooting on him. And I'm like, this feels different. This doesn't feel as, you know, he doesn't feel like the guys I'm just shooting on. So yeah, those little few kilos makes a huge difference in the long run. By the time I get to run to, I'm dead. I'm just gassed is the effort required to take him down, which is significantly higher. So that's one. But then when we talk about adding extra weight classes, I actually agree. I think there has to be a 165 division. You know, I think fighters have been very vocal about it in the past, I think, especially Dustin Poier, Connor Chandler, more recent times. I definitely think 165 should be there. Because I think if you look at the average weight that a human being walks at, it's in that range of from like the 145 division to well to weight. And this is just such an odd way to be walking around that. And then, yeah, you know, you're looking at middleweight to light heavyweight. Again, not a really random jump. So yeah, I personally do agree. I do think there needs to be more weight classes. My only concern with that is just there being a sort of dilution, if that makes sense. Having too many championships and then, you know, they're being sort of less, how do I say that's pride in winning the different titles, it gets valued. If that makes sense. I understand where you're coming from. So let me steal man your argument first. So what you're saying is if we have too many weight categories, then what we'll have is instead of having 20 fighters on a roster in one 58 category, you might have five six fighters. And then you'll have a world champion who has just barely beaten five or six fighters, right? Am I getting it right? I don't want to miss miss. Miss understand. No, no, exactly. Exactly. Like, you remember when I think Amanda Nunez, right, when she won the lightweight. Whatever was, yeah. Yeah, she didn't have anyone her size. And then you just like, okay, is there any point of having this? But in the case of obviously the 165, I do think you'll get a lot of people. So what so to give everybody the context of what Varun is talking about as far as Amanda Nunez is concerned, Amanda Nunez, arguably the greatest female fighter ever in the history of mixed martial arts, the greatest like by a country mile greatest. And what happened was Amanda was a 135 pound champion. And then UFC had to get Chris Cyborg in because they wanted Chris Cyborg and they created the 145 pound division. 145 pound division may go fighter. Chris Cyborg and Amanda Nunez. So when Amanda Nunez goes around saying, I'm a two division champion, I repeat, Amanda Nunez is the greatest fighter ever by a country mile. But that's a little bit like saying, mommy, mommy, my classmate first. I bet a classmate, Kithne looked at mommy though. So that was basically what happened in the 145 pound division. So I understand, but having said that there is a sweet spot is what I would say. Right now, what is happening even in wrestling as far as the Olympics is concerned is we should have more weight categories. Barrows has been talking about it, not just now, you know, he's been talking about it for a while. He's been, you know, shouting, screaming, and he's listen, when Jordan Barrows talks about it, that's one of the greatest of all time talking about it. He's literally the peak alpha level of wrestling when it comes to this. Like he is the alpha of the alphas and Jordan talking about it and Jordan's right. Now, what there is one more aspect of the entire Venus thing that really, you know, disappointed me was the argument. I mean, I'm reading the economic times and this is what the economic times has reported as arguments presented by Fogert's council. I don't know, I was really disappointed by the arguments. Varun, I want to read this for you also, and I want to read this verbatim from economic times. As reported by Indian Express, Fogert's legal team contends that several factors contributed to her being over the weight limit. They argue that the tight schedule between bouts and the significant distance between the Mars arena and the athletes will it played a crucial role. According to the report in the Indian Express, Fogert's council highlighted that the court distance between Mars arena and athletes village and the tight schedule between bouts not allow her sufficient time to adjust her weight which had reached 52.7 kg by the evening of day one. I don't know why this is so unique to Fogert because it applies to everyone else. The council also noted that court, the excess of 100 grams is extremely negligible and claimed it could be attributed to factors like the bloating of a human body during summer weather or muscle mass increase as the athlete completed three times on the same day. They argued that this minimal weight loss excess did not confer any competitive advantage. Why do we do this in embarrassed ourselves? Why do Indians always do this? Again, this is not vinacious thought. Why are we embarrassing ourselves on the internet? Are you serious? Are you serious? Are you serious? Are you serious? I'll tell you this. There's so many things to unpack there. The first thing is the 100 grams. The 100 grams, look, if you're overweight, you're overweight. It's in the rules. You know what you're signing up for. As much as I would have loved to see her compete for gold, if she didn't make weight, that's on her. I do think that she shouldn't have been disqualified for day one or the tournament as a whole. She should have just been given a silver medal. I don't understand how her being overweight on day two impacts or gives her an advantage on day one. However, the whole distance from the arena thing, I just don't agree with that because like he said, it applies to all the athletes. Not just that. Like I mentioned, in my own experience, last year at the IMF championships, I was the last part of the day. By the time I was done, all the other fighters, they could have gone to the sauna. They could have cut weight. By the time I was done, all the saunas were shot. So I had to do it the hard way. I had to do it with the jumpsuit. I had to do it by putting on layers. Now, no one's here saying that the other fighters had an advantage over me. No one's saying that at all. So I don't think that that's a good enough reason for Binesh Bogart. And again, she did miss weight. So to be disqualified is legitimate. I just don't think that they should have taken away the medal or the silver medal at least. Now, that is something, yes, that is something I can be empathetic to that, okay, they should not have taken the silver medal away. They should have given it. And that is something that Jordan said, listen, the rule is stupid. Okay, she could not make weight. She lost the bout, give her the silver medal, and it ends there. Now, that is something I'm empathetic to. That is something I can live with. But to say, oh, it's just 100 grams, please don't embarrass us. And I mean, don't embarrass us internationally, man. I mean, to actually hear Binesh's team make these kinds of arguments is honestly, honestly embarrassing. And I also want to spend some time. Why are they attacking Vinesh's team, like the doctors and everyone? Why are they attacking them? Like, they follow protocol, man, sometimes you just don't, you just can't cut weight, the body doesn't respond. Like, what is the fault of our team? Like, they're going after, what was his doctor, Padivala or someone that I guess that that was his name who was involved. You know, right now, I think the doctor must be going, I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. Yeah, go ahead, go ahead. No, I was just going to add like, yeah, what's the team supposed to do, right? And I've seen, I've seen people get disqualified in front of me at the World Championship for being literally, you know, I think 50 grams over. Our own Indian fighters at these World Championships have been disqualified in the past for being 100 grams over. Look, you know what you're signing up for. Okay, you know what you're signing up for. It's in the rules. And yeah, to go at the team is not done. I think, you know, again, what are they supposed to do? What are you going to squeeze her till she sweats everything out? I mean, after a certain point, your body has only so much water in expelled. I think I even read reports that she tried so hard and after a certain point, nothing was coming out. And that happens, that happens. And if you can't make weight beyond a certain point, it's actually dangerous. I mean, at what point do you say, look, we need to take care of her health. You know, what if she has a kidney failure? What if she has an overheating? We don't even think about that. We're just like, Oh, no, we want that. We wish we have that gold medal. You're talking about an athlete's life here. You're not just talking about the medals, medals in this case. So you mentioned the dangers of weight cutting. Now, I want to read something again. This was from the nutrition heartbeat.com. What are the cons of cutting weight? There are many negative aspects. I'm reading this verb barium. Again, three paragraphs people should know what athletes go through. There are many negative aspects to the practice of weight cutting that can affect combat and performance. One negative is the likelihood of remaining dehydrated as this will decrease athlete performance. As many as 34% of combat sports athletes are dehydrated when they compete. This results in less total body water, reduced blood volume, and reduced total hemoglobin volume due to combat sports requiring the athletes to be in excellent aerobic condition. A reduction in oxygenation through less hemoglobin will negatively impact their ability to perform. The reduced glycogen stores is another side effect of weight cutting. Your body uses glycogen stored in skeletal muscle for energy and weight cutting depletes. Weight cutting often depletes these stores during the RWL period. Replenish glycogen stores are important as they provide energy for the athlete and will negatively impact performance if left empty. The last con of weight cutting is that it can be dangerous if performed incorrectly as kidney damage may occur. During the RWL phase, creatinine and blood, urea, nitrogen, or bond levels are negatively impacted. Plus, if an issue incurs where the body's core temperature rises too much, heat stroke can occur and even lead to fatalities. Weight cutting is mentally and emotionally taxing and negative psychological impacts on the athlete at a time when they need to be focused on the competition instead of dangerous weight cutting practices. I urge everyone who is going to be listening to this and have suddenly become interested in weight cutting, there is something called UFC Embedded Series. So go on the UFC channel and there is something called UFC Embedded. What they do is before the fight, they go and take videos of fighters doing this or that. Go and check Kabib Nubagavadov and there are certain videos of Kabib Nubagavadov. The man has never lost a fight. Some think that he's the greatest fighter ever. Some say it is John Jones. People like me say it's George St Pierre but they don't like it. Yeah it's funny, Dana is like always about John Jones. But go and look at Kabib Nubagavadov when he was cutting weight. There are some videos available on the UFC Embedded. The torture Kabib goes through. Why I'm reading all these things is that you can say what you, I will criticize Vinesh's Council for embarrassing us for talking about her is Sogram Itohana but listen Vinesh did what she could do as far as the weight cutting process is concerned. Now whatever is happening right now in India where yes there are rallies being carried out that is just because Ariada elections are coming around. Let's get very clear. This thing is politicized and you cannot avoid it. But the point is a thing being politicized has nothing to do with Vinesh giving it her best shot when it came to weight cutting. One has got nothing to do with the other and it doesn't get more political than the Charvak podcast. I'm literally a political animal but I will stand up for Vinesh Fogut where she deserves to be defended. And that's how I do things. But now enough of the whole weight cutting saga anything else you want to add Varun before we jump into UFC 305? I mean before we jump into UFC 305 I think the best example in kind of recent times aside from Khobib is a guy I know we'll talk about Alex Pereira right? Like look at how much weight that guy cuts and I'm in the opinion that that is why he got knocked out so bad when Adisanya knocked him out because we've seen him take harder shots but you know it affects your ability to your durability and yeah your cardio the rest of it. So that's all I really add. It does impact your performance. I've been a victim of it myself so yeah that's all I really add to that. Yeah so just to back you up he fought at 185 pounds so when he weighed for that fight he weighed 185 pounds when he rehydrated Jada Vasani Walauska was either Dusso Daskyoparogia. So imagine what he has done to himself ladies and gentlemen that man has basically sucked every single fluid out of his body. I don't know how he managed to do that. Alex Pereira should never fight middleweight again in his life. He should fight light heavyweight. He's talking about it. He's talking about I mean we'll get into it when we talk about the beta bed but yeah it's not it's really not how people do it. There's all sorts of different techniques. Obviously I mentioned the sauna running on the treadmill. I'm sure the Russians have their sneaky little secrets but you know there's many ways. There's many ways it's rough. Yeah all right now let's get into UFC 305. We'll start with the main event. Drikka's Doopussi defeated Israel Audisania by submission around three minutes and 30 odd seconds in round four. Forget round four till the first three rounds. Who did you had winning? Personally I had DDP up to one. If I'm remembering correctly I think he won first two and the third and then the third was Izzy and then I had Izzy winning up until the kind of abrupt ending. So yeah I had a two on personally. How about yourself? Pretty much the same. I think it was two on DDP before round four. Now Izzy said that he made a silly error and that error cost him but do you remember that moment where he's like here here here. Do you remember that moment before he got taken down? In round four? Yeah. Yeah I think that I don't remember that but that would be sort of uncharacteristic in terms of when he keeps his composure. You know he's very disciplined as a fighter and he was finding that discipline. I think after a certain point when he was landing those body shots and finding his groove he maybe got a little overexcited. That would be my first guess because if you see the punch that lands he gets hit by a left hook with sort of bottom of guard and he gets a glancing overhand that dropped him. You know and then from there it all just fell apart and that blew my mind. I was like what just happened? Where has this come from? So what do you think has happened with Izzy? Now he's lost twice now. He's lost to Sean Strickland and now he's lost to DDP. Obviously he lost to Alex Pereira but he got that one back. He beat Alex so it's even Stephen there but Sean I think DDP did not do a number on him as much as Sean Strickland did and you have to remember Sean was going striking with him. Sean did not take him down. DDP always had to take down threat so in my opinion DDP in that sense always had an edge over him and that's what got DDP the fight. I thought DDP was going to beat him full disclosure. I thought DDP was going to beat him and I did not think because ADDP has like guard level energy and stamina. He's like a cardio machine. Did you see he was barely breathing heavy in round four? I thought he looked half dead. I mean I feel like every fight he looks half dead but then I can't tell. He's like Pete Sampras. I wrote Pete Sampras. I'm going to say he's not going to do him. He finds that second win you know what I mean? But what do you think about I want to compare this fight with the Sean Strickland fight. Sean did not take him down. Sean just struck with him like he was right there and Sean Strickland was clinical. Now what is happening with Izzy now? Has he lost the sheen? He's still very good but is he just or or basically every single fighter has figured out what city kickboxing does. You know they have that faint game right? City kickboxing is known for excessive fainting. So so for those who don't know when you faint is basically you're pretending you're going to hit and you bite it every time your opponent thinks oh it's coming and then you don't do it and then the opponent responds. So if you faint a right punch the opponent goes in a certain direction and throws an encounter in that many second and then you throw the other shot and then you get your opponent and city kickboxing style was a city kickboxing is basically the the the the the gym under which Izzy Wokenofsky and many other strain even Dan Hooker and many other strain and they had this excessive fainting style. Now do you think they've been caught out now everybody has kind of figured it out? Yes I don't know I think first of all you know Poatan when he came through when he knocked Izzy out although he did get the fight back if you remember the second fight or where they from the UFC even there prayer was damaging him and he was putting it on him. I think that in both fights you see that when he gets backed up he's not the most comfortable and he does rely a lot on his head movement and his elusiveness and when he gets backed up one of one thing he likes to do is he likes to re uh he likes to reset and take back the center you know and circle. So I think if you cut that off and then he gets a bit uncomfortable we so prepare to do that and ultimately knock him out even in the second fight you know he did get knocked out but Izzy was backed up against the fence taking hard shots you know another day maybe he gets knocked out again. I think Sean Strickland anyways has that style of marching forward so naturally that that matchup was a bit you know it just didn't favor him. I think once that blueprint has been set out it just makes it a lot harder for a champion. I don't think Adasani looked bad at all I think I think he looked great. You just add DDP's willingness to stand in the pocket fire randomly. He eats shots as well you know going in but he'll take one to land one and then you add the threat of the takedown. I don't think anyone's ever taken down Adasani like that from at least from my memory. You know those blast doubles the timing on it to take him down control is back to all of that. I don't think we've ever seen anyone do that. He was taken down a lot during the fight in the light heavyweight the title fight where he had gone up to weight category. Yeah of course against Blahovet but I'm saying in middleweight. In middleweight yeah nobody has taken him down like this. Exactly so I think that definitely added to the knockout ultimately right that threat of the takedown that's what opens up those sort of looping punches because you're focused you know on the takedown. So yeah I just think that it's a combination it could be age it could just be many people over the years. I mean you have to remember this guy's been on top for how many years now. Every single fighter that's in the middleweight division has studied this guy I mean so extensively. So I mean if you go on YouTube now if you just search up Adasani at tactics there's so many YouTubers alone that a fade striking breakdown. So can you imagine you're a UFC fighter how much you would have studied this guy. So I just think a lot of it is understanding how to beat the system. Yeah and I think it applies to every sport. I clearly remember. Do you remember that who was that mystery spinner? The first one the first three Lankan who had come. Oh man just just yeah Ajanta Mendes you remember Usnakya Dukhikya Dukhikya Amko first or me. Nobody would understand what he's doing other than Virena Seva who didn't care he would just dance down the track and you just mash him and every other Indian batsman was struggling including Sachin and it was only Viru who was hitting Ajanta Mendes but look at what Ajanta Mendes was in that tour and the first year when people were not able to figure him out and then everybody got his videotape and everybody basically figured Ajanta Mendes out and then look at Ajanta Mendes's career after that. Just back down and that's the whole idea about today's sport whether it's MMA it's any sport there's so much tape on you that eventually your fighting style is going to be figured out and and I think that's what happened to Alex Volkonowski from City Kickboxing too. Volk also basically they just figured Volk out. Eventually Volk has been exposed in that sense. Are they a good fighter still? I think they're damn good fighters they might even become champions again but the the veneer of invincibility now from City Kickboxing fighters has pretty much gone out do would you say that? Yes I know because they still have some solid fighters as we saw in the rest of the card right so they definitely have I think they just need to make some slight adjustments we've seen many gyms even the Dagestani's with that either people are now scrambling with Islam Makasha whereas earlier when a Dagestani took people down that was it right like they're staying there for the rest of the fight. Hori is the best example when Khabib took him down that was it night night Makasha takes him down he gives him a competitive fight and even cuts him open land some hard shots on him that that were deadly Volkonowski did the same to him and I think just over time the styles get found out so you have to adapt I think Islam is a good example of a person who has adapted right he has that Khabib Dagestani style and that AKA style but he's also worked tremendously hard on his striking that you know I think he can stand with anyone in that division I think it's now time for the guys in city kickboxing to do the same Dan Hooker on the card we'll talk about him later I'm sure Dan Hooker we saw an evolution in his game the way that he was scrambling out the way that he had take down defense mixed in I think that's ultimately what won him the fight against Gamrock so yeah I just think it's time that Izzy does something similar yeah fair enough so I have another question what did you make of the kai kara France fight oh solid solid fight oh excellent you know I think that I don't know how many people know of her seg or if you've watched their seg fight before the guy's the real deal the easy is really good this guy so the knock him out in that fashion was Chris it was sweet because I think it started the fight well you know you're using his range using his composed calm and then just bang out of nowhere you know you get that over hand and it was that that was that and for me I think a flyweight to hold that much power is insane yeah so but the knockart was fun I mean that that was fun oh there's a one fight I all right so what did you make of Gamrock versus Hooker and both Tui Vassar versus Rosenstrich I mean like I mentioned with the Hooker and Gamrock fight have you I mean have you seen much of Gamrock's fights yeah yeah I've seen him fight you have right see anyone who's watched Gamrock fight will tell you this guy's got world class wrestling and grappling all together right the best example being his fight with Sarukian which he actually won that's probably the highest level of grappling you'll see him and him versus Sarukian even his fight with Benil Dariyush the scrambles there so like I was mentioning when we told Marisanya the evolution of of Dan Hooker to be able to sort of defend those takedowns and then put it on Gamrock and to Gamrock's credit you know everyone criticizes him says that he's a boring fighter and whatnot and in the past he has been you know you can argue that he has been but he also he stepped up you know he was willing to trade he was landing his own shots so I thought I mean personally that was my favorite fight of the night just because of the back and forth nature of it I don't know what you thought of it um I enjoyed that fight but I actually did not understand what the hell happened in Tui Vassar versus Rosenstraik like what happened there what he's now in a five five five still yeah Tui Vassar yeah man I think enough shoeies I think that's what he needs to be done you know enough drinking beers out of shoes he needs to be a bit realistic with his match ups now you know there was a point where he climbed up to top three but now man Rosenstraik's no joke this guy is a serious tick box and if you're gonna fight at his pace a sort of slower pace um it it only favors him we saw what Inganu did to Rosenstraik just swarmed him and basically knocked him out in in what 10 seconds uh you have to you have to approach him like that you have to approach him like so the next fight was uh welterweight Lijing Yang defeated Carlos Prathis uh by Naka oh sorry or the other way around Carlos beat Lijing Yang by Laka in round two that was another fun fight I enjoyed that fight which one which which fight did you enjoy in the the prelims and the early prelims which one was the fight I I honestly I enjoyed the junior Taffa fight versus what the hell yeah I enjoyed that that was a good move submission this I want to ask you I mean what did you hear when you saw the light telecast or when you watched it back because on first glance there was a lot of controversy he screams right but the argument is that he never said tap so I'm just trying to say I don't know where I I sort of stand with that I am I'm serious where you stand no I think if he doesn't say tap and screams it doesn't matter you you keep my mind doing I mean I don't know what Big John would say to that I think we have to go with what Big John McCarthy says eventually because he's the one who made the rules yeah yeah yeah yeah no here if you see at the end of the fight he like he throws his gum shield yeah I think he even smacked uh what's his walker wasn't he uh he smacks him in the face after the fight he was not happy about it but I'm like man you're just screaming I suppose in that situation the ref's job is to protect you if he thinks your knee is about to get ripped off then you know I get it I get what the point you're making but this is that classic spirit of cricket argument right we keep talking about the so-called imaginary spirit of cricket every time I think I think it's fine either way I think both the arguments are fine it is not a big deal either way is what I'm trying to say but I think if it's rules it doesn't matter but what are the rules nobody knows the rules of MMA at least I don't know I don't know Ricardo Ramos beat Joshua Colibao by decision in three three rounds and then oh yeah Casey O'Neill good for her she she won the decision against Santos I like this KO did you see the Jenkins KO well which one is that so Jenkins versus Herbert Burns Herbert Burns yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah Herbert Burns should not he should not be fighting I don't know how else to say this he should not be fighting I mean it's just like at this point maybe not in the UFC yeah I think he's on a scale himself yeah he should not be fighting man I don't know why people just feel ashamed to say that he should not be in the UFC he should not be fighting them it's just it's just terrible to see what is happening to that guy and it's just the levels are different and we should not be encouraging anything of this sort Tom Nolan in the early prelims beat Alex Reyes by decision on Kanaan won against Rick Glenn again by decision another good this was the first one I don't know yeah he's a regular versus Stewart Nicole by submission in round one that was a good submission man oh so quick you jumped on that neck like it was he was there just squeezed that impressive but super impressive just to just to go back to one fight did you see the song Kanaan fight right I think he gets hit within like the first 20 seconds he got dropped right and then he comes back and I don't know if you remember the Hematoma and what is what does he like you forgetting his name well what was Kanaan's opponent's name I forget Kanaan's opponent's name went on Kanaan Rick Glenn yeah yeah yeah did you see the welcome his head that was disgusting actually yeah but nothing beats what happened to the boogie woman ah yeah your honor your honor you remember that that damn thing yeah mega mind god that was just nothing none of it that was a sick fight that was a really sick fight yeah but overall what do you how how many points are like out of 10 what do you give this card to your five listen three or three and three or four what a disaster I shared my views with you disaster I did not enjoy that shit show yeah no I mean especially after those get personally I enjoyed this card from start to finish I think there was I'll give this card a eight out of ten I love this card yeah I agree with the eight I think an eight is yeah eight is fair eight is fair because this was a from everyone came to fight everyone wanted to go for the finish where most people went for the finish we had some crazy moments you know even in the even in the prelims you know I'm blanking out on names today but there was the guy he ends up coming with the he ends up winning the decision but in the first round he had he was in a tight rear naked choke and he gets out let me just get his name let me get his name yeah Cooley bow Cooley bow in the first round he was getting his head squeezed off somehow manages to get out and then puts it like he really puts it on for the next two rounds and wins the decision that was for me that that kind of sums up the rest of the card everyone's they're ready to fight no one's giving up you know yeah okay love we'll have to back up the wrap up in a few minutes because I'm an Airbnb and I have to vacate this Airbnb yeah so I'll take a couple of questions so somebody has asked 165 175 190 makes the weight jumps slightly easier but reduces the issue of shallow divisions no what's your opinion which reduces the issue of shallow division no I think we need a 165 175 185 195 then go to a 5 or 210 and then go heavyweight I think that's my opinion I don't know what yours is I yeah like like you said I think I am happy with a 10 10 10 division although there is yeah a risk of you know dilution it makes it much easier for the fighters and I do think that having smaller weight cuts just increases the quality of fights overall so yeah I personally hope they do eventually change the weight classes yeah and the next question was thoughts on the 1FC approach to weight cutting can I share something yeah okay so this was Luke's tweet I think if somebody asks songs this was the best answer I think Luke Thomas gear so this was Luke's tweet a few days ago I don't know if you guys saw for those who don't know Luke Thomas is probably if not the best I think I think Luke is the best MMA journalist I think Luke is one of the best sports journalist period I think Luke Gerald Kimber in cricket these are these are some of the gems we have in sport and and this was on 4th July 24th one fight night 23 veins all over five fighters wins contracted baits are failed to pass hydration and all Luke said was when you saw weight cutting yeah you know what I mean I like I just don't know how much over sight there is in this whole process uh 1FC you know it's it's got some great fighters they put on great fights but reputation wise not exactly squeaky clean yeah I just I think 1FC makes a lot of claims that cannot be verified independently the numbers about about the quality of X the quality of Y I mean just putting it out there we cannot trust 1FC about many things but before we wrap it up I want to just spend 5 minutes on 303 on 304 what are you on my views I'm not going to share my views I want to know your views okay wait I'm gonna have to pull up the card so I mean first of all for me Bilal Muhammad is looking real juicy and the guy is uh I've never seen him look in that physique in my life he looked jacked he was absolutely jacked out of his mind but in terms of performance great performance you know that that's the way you make a statement the mixing up of striking wrestling I think he looked like a deserved well deserved world champion great performance and then of course there was Tom Aspenal and the Khomein putting credit space to sleep brilliant I thought those were brilliant but the rest of the card you know nothing man again you're fighting at what 3am in the morning yeah so why did they do it why did they do that card why did it do why can't they just do it for british audiences that's my whining the fighters didn't ruin that card you have zero in that card 100% I mean look I was so I was in the UK at the time right when this whole thing was going on I was so excited when they announced UFC Manchester in fact I was even planning on you know potentially going and watching it when I see it's at 3am not only are the fighters going to be dead but at some point you know the crowd as much as they love to party in the UK and especially often did you see the people sleeping in the audience yeah it's like who planned this what if they think was going to happen you know it was ready listen I agree with you I think Balal looked clinical that's the word yeah clinical so smooth so good Balal Muhammad I've never seen Balal fight better than this in my entire life of watching Balal Muhammad and I've almost watched all his fights now for the last seven years eight years I've watched a lot of Balal's fights Balal has never looked better he is the most improved fighter I've seen in a long long time like my goodness Balal Muhammad has improved so much it is it is unbelievable I mean look he did what he did to Leon what Usman could do twice and Colby could do these are wrestlers with loads of credentials right this guy's never competed in wrestling or not like to the level that Usman and Colby have and he bragged all beyond you remember when he just eye crotches him lifts him and dumps him on his head right I was round two or round one I forgot that was yeah I think it was round two but like come on who's doing that to Leon Edwards no one's done but even Maru didn't couldn't do it and Balal no it's the timing it's not the power it's the timing how many times you've drilled that move how exactly exactly exactly and he mixed up the the striking very well you know no one no one sustained with Leon you know it's he's known for his kill so Balal especially having fallen before and he did get touched up in the first fight and credit to him he really stepped up when it mattered do you think Leon deserves a rematch that's a good question I think that I think he should win at least a fight I think he needs to win at least one just because I think it was a shutout I think Balal showed that he was a lot better as a fighter in that in that fight there's so many fighters there are now coming up in the welch weight there they're doing right yeah exactly just give it to him yeah definitely definitely just give it to him Shofkot's there we forget about Jack Della Madelena Ian Gary is climbing up there you know as much as people want to hit on Ian Gary the guy can fight the guy can fight so on this personality that that's not up for grabs over here I care about that I don't know what the fighter does I don't care I'm just looking at the fighting right yeah and and now you know what especially with with a new champion who says Usman Khan get back in there you know tomorrow yeah he lost the Leon twice but it's it's a completely new champion new challenge who says Usman Khan get back in there and I don't think so Kobe Covington is going to be coming back soon I think his error has done pretty much yeah I think he's he's sort of past his best days yeah as much as I think I say yeah I mean he was a good fighter to watch again so what did you make of three or three before we have to pick up so I got to pull up that card let me just see oh so sorry I just to add to that three or four card Heidi Pimlet Heidi Pimlet getting that okay why did Bobby Green try to take him down like who does that why why would Bobby Green of all the people try to take down yeah I thought it was with random especially given that you know we've seen Heidi Pimlet look a bit sort of stretchy on the on the feet and King Green is amazing sorry King Green not Bobby Green he looks you know he's as slick as a striker you know in in that division why he shot no one knows but that that finish was great you know Heidi was so quick on it and now he's a legitimate top 15 fighter yeah so as far as 303 he's concerned obviously Pereira was brilliant against Prohoshka yeah what did you make of the Michael Michael Venom page versus Ian Gary fight that's what I wanted to ask you before we wrap it up oh yeah yeah since what I mean since we were talking about the welterweight division look Ian Gary he's coming up he is obviously shown he's a good striker he can put anyone out he can point fight he's is adaptable in the striking the one question that everyone wanted to wanted answered was how good is grappling right and you're coming up against the guy like MDP who's obviously incredible with the striking and yeah I think those questions were answered he was able to take down a guy like MDP keep him down and he was even able to touch him on the feet so I think he showed how well rounded he is there have been so many fighters that have tried to take down Michael Venom page out grappling and not many people have succeeded so for Ian Gary to not only be able to stand with him but to out grapple him I he's the real deal he's the real deal whether whether it makes people happy or not and any other fight in 303 of that stood out for you any other like I was disappointed by the Dalitsa and Anthony Smith fight to be very honest and I and I'm a big Anthony Smith fan I really like him as a commentator too but I was really disappointing to watch I don't know I did not enjoy that fight I kind of forgot that I forget what happens I'll have to go back and watch nothing and that's like that was the problem okay yeah well there you go I think Anthony Smith is you know it's coming towards the end I think he just needs to take fun fights now or hang it up I don't see him becoming a champion so you know he's had a good run but he's towards the end but if we were talking about 303 in the fights in the early prelims there was a guy called Ray Saruya yeah I think in the past I've talked to you a lot about the Japanese fighters and how they're coming up through the UFC and we saw in the Olympics the Japanese wrestlers how good were they they were incredible right we're seeing how good their wrestling is and now it's about time that they jump into the UFC and and take over I mean it's only a matter of time really they're so good they are so so good so with him and then you do you remember Diego Lopez and EK the four hours yeah that was a great fight that was a great fight so I was noticed yeah I was noticed yeah I imagine that honestly I hope they get paid a lot but yeah I would not recommend such fights I mean it's ridiculous but hey it is what it is anything else you wanted to talk about before we wrap it up well yeah I think that more or less covers it you know I'm looking forward to the sphere you know the sphere is coming up so I'm very curious to see what they do they've been hyping it up so much that you know it can only be exciting yeah I agree that some good fights are lined up now and if you're a mixed martial arts fan I think you can look forward to the rest of the season it's it's really going to be a lot of fun but as always Varun pleasure talking to you I know we we were not able to do a podcast in between because hey you were fighting I wanted you to rest completely yeah yeah so so everybody if we suddenly have a break always remember Varun is fighting and and even if Varun wants to do the podcast I will not let him do it so it's absolutely fine yeah yeah Varun never backs off the podcast but but I don't let him do it because I am very clear his recovery is more important than this podcast so let Varun relax and when Varun gets fine I bring him back on the podcast so everybody go follow Varun on X and Instagram his Instagram handle and X handle are there in the description of the the podcast so it doesn't matter if you're listening to this on audio or watching this on YouTube Facebook go follow him on Instagram and on X or whatever you call it Twitter as far as I'm concerned the Charvok podcast you know the drill the Charvok podcast is a member driven podcast so if you can please become a member of the Charvok podcast on YouTube or on Patreon you can also send your donations directly through UPI on Quishol Meray at ICICI you can buy the Charvok podcast merchandise on Quisholmera.com or on Cardac merch if you don't do anything of that sort any audio listener just leave a rating on your audio platform or like this video on YouTube subscribe to my YouTube channel or leave a comment in the comment section I'll see you guys next time until then notice they take care bye bye (upbeat music) (upbeat music) 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