The Nathan Crane Podcast
Bible Conversations #2 - Are we actually born in the image of God? - Jonathan Otto | Nathan Crane Podcast
Welcome back to this series of Bible Conversations with Jonathan Otto. Super excited to dive into topic number two today. Jono, thanks for coming on, man. The first conversation was really deep and very philosophical and enlightening conversation. We've gotten people emailing in about it that they absolutely loved it. And so I'm excited to dive into this next topic with you, which we'll cover what it is. We'll recap first one a little bit, but just wanted to, I know you're traveling a bit. So thanks for making the time to do this, brother. Super happy to have you back on. - Oh, welcome, man. Thank you. It's really great. And I'm glad you prioritize it. It's a reason why, for me, even if I'm super busy or something crazy is going on in my life or whatever, this is the thing to prioritize. Because what are we without our connection to ourselves, without our connection to God? Certainly it's worth making time for a man. So I think my, your commitment to this, my commitment to this is a really good kind of case in point for people listening of the importance of this kind of conversation right now. How important it is that you take in what we're talking about and consider it, make it your own, because that's where you can find in a piece and you can find a meaning and purpose and overcome perhaps any different challenge that you're facing today. And so this is like certainly a huge key to all of it. So I'm looking forward to sharing. - Yeah, absolutely. So just a little context for people. You are coming from a background of most your life, right? Really deeply studying the Bible very intimately as a Christian, as a Seventh-day Adventist Christian and really coming to some very interesting conclusions along the way that are very revelatory and been changing people's lives as you share them with people. Is that, would that be accurate way to just anything you want to add to it? - Yeah, absolutely. I mean, definitely, definitely there's a lot to what you're saying there is correct. There's like, for example, I did grow up in a Christian context. I grew up in a family that practiced within a Seventh-day Venice, which is actually like a mainstream Christian denomination. So it's not a fringe when it's part of the mainstream, which has an interesting... That may be a good thing to some people. Maybe a downside to some people. Because a lot of people in these contexts have lost a lot of connection to what those original purposes behind those denominations were really about. They did amalgamate with either some government agendas and various different things like that. And I would say that that sadly is the case for the church that I grew up in, which is why, in one sense, I would identify in many things in comparison similarity to Seventh-day Venice and in another setting. I would completely identify as being of no denomination in that sense, non-denominational, so just to kind of make that clear a bit. But in terms of the core thing of what you're talking about, I absolutely did grow up around the Bible, around discussions around that, around questions around that. But certainly it wasn't until I was around 19 years of age that I started to go really deep and start to study these things for myself and gain deeper understandings for what I actually thought about. And up until that point, I was largely skeptical of all of it. But I still, I did pray as a child independently, and I did have a conversation and dialogue with God as best as I could. And it was still filled with a lot of confusion and kind of question marks, and then, which then eventually it to a lot of skepticism in my early 10 years. And then, but then still a massive gaping hole, like a longing, a yearning for something more than what I had and feeling like if this is it, then I don't feel like life has meaning. And I think that there has to be something more, there has to be something more that what happens after you die. And especially just the current longing that I had, there's something more than I long for. And it was like what C.S. Lewis talked about where he said that if a baby cries for milk, it's there's such a thing as milk, and people have sexual desire, well, there's such a thing as sex. And if I have a craving of longing for something that nothing in this world can satisfy the only probable explanation is that I was made for another world. And so that's, I would definitely agree with him in that sentiment, so yeah. Yeah, that's a beautiful way to open up. And actually, I just, I learned more even from you just sharing that than even our other conversations just about more of kind of where your perspective is. So thank you, that's super helpful. And my, and a short version of mine is I kind of come at this from a very eclectic background of studying directly with various religious and spiritual traditions. I've spent many, many hours with Native Americans in all kinds of ceremonies. I've spent many hours with Buddhists, meditating and learning Buddhist traditions with Zen masters, with chanting with Hare Krishna's, with yogis, and more recently really diving deeply into the yogic sciences and the Vedas and all of the wisdom out of the East have studied with Christians, with Mormons. I was actually went to a very large popular Christian church last Thursday and had incredible, I'll share a little bit about that, incredible experience with Jesus. And so, and then more recently as well, really diving deeply into the Bible, reading it daily, taking notes on it, meditating on it. And I've spent quite a bit of time over the years, you know, going through the Bible and understanding, trying to understand different aspects about it. But like you, I would not claim my part of any single religion but really a child of God and a secret of God and someone who desires deeply to deeply, truly know God and know the truth of our existence. And so, I have glimpses of it, I have been pointed towards it, I have had incredible life-changing experiences that only God can explain, that only saying that was God, you know, would explain the reason for those things. So I have no doubt there is a God, a unified source, an all-creative, you know, pure life force energy that emanates all of us and that our highest purpose really is to know God, to be one with God, to have that deep experience of God and with God. And so, I see the Bible actually as an incredible ancient text that points us how to know God for ourselves, where Jesus is teaching us how to know God, where is God, where is the kingdom of God, how do we find the kingdom of God? And it's all in there, it's all there. But, before we go too deep into that, I want to briefly recap our first conversation, so for those who didn't watch it, please go watch it, it's really wonderful, we'd love to hear feedback on it. It was really about, you know, the contradiction between this vengeful God, this angry God, this jealous God in the Bible versus this loving God, this all-compassionate, this all-wise caring God in the Bible. And so, without going too much into that, I don't even really want to talk about it because then we'll probably talk about that for the entire hour. Just have people go watch that, please. And so, we'll move on from that. That was the conversation number one. Topic number two is, this question I want to ask you and then we can kind of discuss this, is are we made in the image of God, filled with the divine love of the Spirit, with the ability to become like Jesus, or are we born sinners with no hope of ever overcoming sin, and no matter how hard we try, we will always be sinners. And the only way to get into heaven is to claim Jesus as our Lord and Savior and hope that that gets us into the pearly gates of heaven. Because those two concepts are opposite of each other, and there is both of those beliefs exist very predominantly today, that on one hand, Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. Many people take that as, you know, God is incarnated as Himself. Some people take it as, you know, Jesus is the Son of God. Some people take it as Jesus is the direct incarnate of God. And yet others believe that Jesus was trained in the higher wisdom teachings of enlightenment from the east. And there's a lot of evidence that supports that as well, and learned how to embody His God given potential, just as all humans have that same potential. And His purpose on earth was to show people how to be one with God and live their highest potential, not as a natural-born sinner, but as a child of God who can overcome sin through wisdom and love. And so I'll just open up to you. Where do you stand on that? Have you heard of PEMF therapy for cancer? Well, this podcast is brought to you by Dr. Pollock, and he wants to share with you the groundbreaking research of post electromagnetic field therapy in the treatment of cancer. Studies show PMF therapy can help control the cancer process and give safe, non-toxic, and non-invasive symptom management. PMF therapy may enhance other cancer support and treatments, lower inflammation, and promote tissue healing. 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Coming from Europe, the all-natural Beljansky formulas are now available in the United States and are recommended by top doctors everywhere. A lot of the colleagues I work with, functional medicine practitioners that work with patients with all kinds of diseases, are recommending Maison Beljansky's products to their very own patients. As a special sponsor, this podcast Maison Beljansky has included a very special discount offer for all of my listeners. You can get 15% off your first order using the promo code "Nathan" and you'll always enjoy free shipping when you order four products or more. You can grab your wellness products today at Maison Beljansky.com. That's M-A-I-S-O-N-B-E-L-J-A-N-S-K-I. Maison Beljansky.com and use code "Nathan" for 15% off. Yeah, well, man, that's super interesting and it's interesting that something that was like a discussion and a debate and in charge for me maybe 20 years ago then is now entering a domain like where you're bringing it up with me. I'm like, "Well, how is this conversation happening in this context? Why is this an important point?" And I think it's when you think about someone like yourself, what do you do, Nathan? You create change in the world. You believe that people can be chronic disease. You believe people can break through addiction. And so this sentiment or the belief that people don't actually change, they just receive God and that grace and they are accepted and that is the end of the road and they just accept and welcome that acceptance they have of God as they are. But then there is no either need to change or ability to change because the condition of the human is defective inherently and so how can one get further than what they actually are? They don't have that propensity, they don't have the ability to do it. And so it's interesting and then you say, "Well, then why would this be emphasized?" And so why do a lot of Christians seem to gain a lot of hope from this? And so there's something that they're gaining from it. What is it that they're gaining? And I would say, well, it's pretty clear that they're gaining that unconditional love and acceptance that they're really hoping for and it gives them assurance. And so now if they base their eternal life based on their actions and now you have to earn your way to God and to be loved by God and that there's something about that that feels off as well. You see this interesting thing. You would think that the answer was, no, you're just saved by grace and you don't have to change either that answer or the other answer is, look, you do have to change. And if you don't, then it's unacceptable. And therefore you can't be received by God. And now that there is a part of that that feels something about that feels wrong. And so let's say, for example, for me, whether something feels right or wrong, I don't really take that as then that's what it is. If it feels wrong, then I'd say, okay, I've got an inkling here. I've got like maybe like a knock, knock, knock on the door. But it doesn't mean that I now lock in whatever I feel. I actually go then to try to explore this in the Bible to understand what does the Bible say. And whatever it says is what I believe. Even though someone would say, that's pretty mindless. Why do you just believe whatever the Bible believes or teachers? And it's just because I've gone through other groundwork that has given me so much trust in God and communicating through that. And I do think it is perfect in that sense, even though it came through God inspiring people. And so it is written, there is human elements in combined, but it is still the voice of God to my soul. And so, yeah, there's a lot there, but I would say that humans, we do have the spirit of God, and it's just like you're saying, and that we were made in the image of God. And so someone would say, well, yeah, you were, but what about now? But there is so much in the Bible that talks about the present experience of being transformed. And you quoted them last time we can bring up some of the quotes. There's many quotes in the Bible in the Old End New Testament, and especially the words of Jesus talking about people being like basically arising into the perfection of what they were made to be of there being a complete transformation. Like chapters like Romans 12, I believe, where it says, be not conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. 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And so there are very clear things like that. But people get confused because it's like, it doesn't, there is a lot, a lot of us all want to feel like we're just going to be loved no matter what. And I actually do believe that that's true that God does love us no matter what. And I really do think the biggest confusion point in this whole thing is the belief that God is the one that does the judging because now it becomes an issue because if God now judges you for your actions, then it's it. What chance do any of us have for starters? Because it's it's got to then now be a perfect standard. You can't just kind of turn the blind eye to, you know, a some dishonesty that maybe you felt like was necessary for you to get ahead in life that wasn't blatantly stealing, but it was along the lines of or whatever, I'm being a little vague, but let's just say it's pretty gray or a white lie versus it's just a blatant lie. But now it's still a lie or, okay, so let's say you didn't commit adultery, didn't sleep with somebody else, and you stay committed to your wife, but you thought about it, or you watch some things or you let your eyes linger, you kind of have these thoughts cultivating. Now does that person deserve the same punishment of being separated from God and everlasting life? These things then become really full on and you just have to start thinking, wow, what are my chances of being saved? They're pretty low because even though I don't do all these bad things, quote unquote, I just I know that there's a lot of like wrong thoughts and feelings inside of me. And so naturally, people are going to just swing the other way and go, it doesn't matter what you do. But I'm saying that it's it's not God that judges you. And so it's you that's judging you. And so if you understand that God doesn't judge you, then it it means that there is a perfect standard that he's calling you to, but he's not the one that's going to hold that against you. But you may hold it against yourself. So there is reason to flee from sin because those are the things that you'll stack against yourself when you stand before God. And he says, come and let's just imagine that image. And for every single soul as bad as you think that person is, God just has his arms open wide and just says, come, I got you, I love you, my love will solve this problem of whatever's going on in your life with the sins that you're you're you're carrying. I can I can just heal this with my love. And you see that happen with the thief on the cross that I mean, this guy has no nothing to show. He's not done a single good deed as far as we know. All he's done is bad deeds. And somehow the love of God just heals his heart. And we could imagine that if you got down from the cross, he would exhibit some changes of of qualities of change life. But but maybe not imperfection, right? Maybe it would be very imperfect still. Maybe it would be completely perfect. We don't really know. But if you look at everyone else that's gone through that journey, it's an imperfect journey. But it's but you're listening to the voice of God. And that's the key part there. But if you're holding things against yourself, then look, that's a big problem because that's where sin can really bring about self destruction. And that's the thing that I'm really concerned about with people. Yeah. So I look to the Sermon on the Mount as what is Jesus directly telling us what to do, right? I mean, it's very clear where he's saying, how to live our lives, how to lead our lives, how to think, how to behave. You know, when someone, you know, hits you, turns the other cheek, who someone sues you, give them also the rest of everything you have, right? Like a paraphrasing clearly. But there's so much in that sermon that is telling us exactly how to live in accordance with God's law. And so, you know, even then we look at 1 John 4 15 says, "Whoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him and he in God." And I think what can happen is maybe we can take that to the extreme and we take it as, I have to confess Jesus is the Son of God. And then that is, you know, the first step in getting me into heaven. But just look, we don't even have to, we don't have to try and interpret that. Just take it as it is. "Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him and he in God." Right? Then 1 John 4 16 goes on and we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God and God in him. So it's saying, number one, we see that Jesus isn't God and God is in Jesus. And then it's saying we dwell in love and we dwell in Jesus and we also then dwell in God. Well, how do we dwell in love? That's really what it's telling us. And I think the question that I've had is, okay, that's not just some parable or something that we should skip over quickly and go, yeah, that's a nice sentence. You know, that's a nice passage. That's a beautiful verse. It's literally saying that he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God and God in him. So dwelleth, right, really going into, into the love, knowing the love, becoming the love, living in love. And that's not an easy thing to do. But it's telling us that we should do, we have that capacity. We have that capacity to know God, to know Jesus, to know love by dwelling in it, right. And I'm actually very curious in the, I'll look it up on the Strong's app on the deeper meanings of dwelleth because I haven't looked that up specifically of the original definition of dwelleth. But, you know, how we would take that. And that's why I always look up these words because it's like, yeah, I can think of what that means to me today. But in the original language that it was in, what's the meaning? Well, primitive root was properly to turn aside from the road for lodging or any other purpose. That's to sojourn, also to shrink, also to gather, to abide, to assemble, to dwell, to inhabitant, to remain, to stand in awe, right. So if we think of those original meanings of that word, to stand in awe of love, of God, to inhabit love, to inhabit God, to dwell in God, to assemble in God, to assemble in love, right. This verse is so powerful by itself. I mean, we can meditate and pray on this one verse for days, weeks, months, and years. And it will guide us to, I think, such a profound understanding, right. And there are many, many more too, right. I mean, John 1412, barely, barely, I say unto you, he that believeth on me the works that I do, shall he do also. And greater works than these shall he do because I go into my father, right. And whatsoever you shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the father may be glorified in the son. If you ask anything in my name, I will do it. If you love me, keep my commandments, right. And I will pray that the father, you know, sends a comforter to you. That's the Holy Ghost and the Holy Ghost will be with you, right. And you will, so, and you know him, for he dwelleth with you and shall be in you. Let's talk about healing 951. I first learned about his revolutionary product while attending a conference on natural cancer treatments. I then later interviewed Jim at Helene Products and his cancer healing journey with this product truly inspired me. 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And that when we dwell in that love, we dwell in that Spirit of God, we inhabit it, we abide in it, right? We really focus on it. Then we too shall do these things that Jesus has done, and even greater works than these, even greater works than these. What does that mean? A lot of people just skip over that. It's like, oh yeah, that sounds great, but I don't really, because I'm a sinner, I will never be like Jesus. I can never be free from sin. That verse in the Bible, I just kind of skip over. It doesn't make sense to me. But it's very clear what he's telling us here. When we dive deeper into the Bible, if we believe that the Bible is the Word of God, inspired, as you said, inspired by God through the people who wrote it, Psalms 82, 6, I have said ye are gods, and all of you are children of the most high. We are children of God. We are sons of God. That's in John. It's repeated again and again and again and again. I and my father are one. I'm not going to read that whole one, but John 1038. But if I do thou ye believe not me, you believe the works that you may know and believe that the Father is in me and I in him, and then two Corinthians 3, 18, but we all with open face beholding as in the glass of glory of the Lord are changed into the same image from glory to glory even as by the Spirit of the Lord. Again, something you can meditate on for days and weeks and months and get the essence of that message. Beholding as in the glass of the glory of the Lord, we are changed into the same image from the glory. So it's telling us literally to look into the image of God, to look into the glory of God, to meditate on that, to reflect on that, and right here, by the Spirit of the Lord, we are changed into the same image from glory. I mean, I could go on. I mean, I have dozens and dozens and dozens of dozens. I found over the, you know, because it's like, I want to know the deeper essence of the teachings when Jesus was really telling us not what I'm told in church, not what some, you know, not what a pastor or preacher has interpreted for themselves. It's like, I want to know the deeper essence. So I will read these and then I'll meditate on it, and then, you know, and then guidance will come. And then I'll find more that show up and show up and show up and show up. And I think that's what everybody can do, should do, has the power to do, right? With the moment we sit, just like, you know, working, we know you and I working in the health space for so long, patients who are sick that give all their power over to a doctor in a white lab coat very often regret it later on, because they found out, hey, there were other alternative options I could have followed that would have been less damaging to my health and I would have been more empowered and healthy had I done these things. And they often regret handing all their power over without looking deeper for themselves into the truth, into the solutions for them. And that's what I do is I, it's like, I want to know at the deepest level, what is the deepest truth? And I think the only way we can do that for ourselves is to read and then to meditate and to pray and to really ask for that divine guidance. And for me, the guidance comes. It really does. I think it comes for everybody when we when we can quiet ourselves and open ourselves to listen. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's powerful. And and something you said about, you've been changed into the image of God, be holding us in a glass and that word is really mirror, because that's, that's how glass was referred to as so is it is actually like in, in our English language, we'd use the word mirror. So be holding us in the mirror, the glory of the Lord, which actually glory denotes character. So every time when you see this, when Moses asks God, show me your glory. And then the Lord passed before him. And then it says, and then these words would declare the Lord full of grace and full of goodness and abundant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands and the giving and equity and sin. So all these when he asks to see his glory, he doesn't seem like just beaming light or that actually does show up. But it wasn't, that really doesn't say much other than, wow, this kind of looks amazing. But it was more about the attributes. Glory was all about that. So be holding in a mirror, the glory of the Lord, the character of the Lord were changed into the same image. And just think about how that goes the opposite way when you believe the wrong thing about God and how sad that is. So you behold the wrong thing in God, then it justifies all the things that you do that are wrong of ways that you may be hurting people, your harshness, and they create these issues. Hence why, like our last discussion, we're going into detail about how we naturally believe wrong things about God by virtue of the fact we picked them up from other people. It's easy to just pick up these issues because we have our inflows of character. We've learned certain habits from our parents. And the judicial punishment based system is like a very natural system for humans. It's just, it's an ethos that is about how we write wrongs through sacrificial offerings and all these types of things. And people don't think it exists, but then just look at all the movies that are filling people's minds. It's all sacrificial in essence. It's all about like wrong being righted through death and death being like the absolute worship of media. And you really kind of escape it. You try to watch a movie at the cinema is that is kind of like maybe pretty okay. And then you realize that it's all this dark theme still that is all through the trailers that you're getting hit with. And you're getting hit with all these horror films. And then even the ones that are just like kind of hero, good guy, bad guy. It's still based on the sacrificial system. There's no redemption of the bad guys. One dimensional bad characters that have you don't really care about them. And so you're okay to just see them like getting a bullet in their head. And it's just super dark. And that's the image of God that a lot of people are seeing without realizing because it's your subconscious program. And so then that's what you see in the mirror. It comes back to you. And you just keep getting change more into that same thing. And people are stuck in these feedback loops. We can't change because we're seeing the wrong image. And why do you think when you look at all the darkness of how your religion gets pinned as being responsible for a lot of darkness and evil and violence that has happened to people in the world? And it is and it's true and false at the same time because it was if you look at the settings, we talked about this where it was people that harnessed this for their own innate power. These were cases and if you look at the militia of Islam, you see that they do have a very religious way that they're seeing these things when they are activating like honor killings or things like this. And so there are cases where people are very devout. And that's part of the issue where you program people with dark beliefs and they become very fervent to these beliefs. And then they become basically slaves of these false beliefs. And Christianity, all the different kind of world religions when you see people like give into these darker attributes, once they cherish these attributes and put them up as being like the ideal, it downgrades everyone. It just makes everyone super dark. And then it's sad because you look at why would Christianity be responsible for any of those things when you look at the life of Christ. And you see that there's just nothing to show there for that death and violence that that became then so commonly known through the dark ages. But it was really a departure from that system and of good. But yeah, I'd like to throw it back to you and see where you want to go with this. Yeah, that actually since you've brought that up, I see that you brought that up to me months ago. And it's like I see that more and more now than ever. Over the years, I've just naturally reduced watching films that are gory and killing and all of that. I think the deeper we dive into any kind of spiritual path, those things become less and less appealing. Our soul, our mind, our brain is like turned off to that. It's like I watch less and less and less. And now I've been watching the chosen lately. Have you seen the chosen? Yeah, yeah. And so I'll pop on, I think it's on prime, I'll pop on prime. And I just notice every single film that it's showing me. And now when you watch these films, I mostly watch biographies, triumphant stories, like athletic stories, people overcoming challenges, like true stories. That's mostly what I watch. But yet on my home screen, what it mostly shows me is all these action films and gory films and all these films that are about killing and all of this stuff. And I'm like, this is what majority of people are conditioned to every single day, right? Exactly what you're talking about, that there's a sacrificial aspect. And it's relieving for people. That's the scary part. It was. Yeah. I mean, I watched that my whole life growing up and even horror films. I watched when I was really young, but then I think even in my early 20s, I just couldn't watch horror films anymore. I didn't get anything out of them. I'm like, is this horror? Oh, these horror films are horrible. I just don't get anything out of it. But there are people who thrive on that, right? It's like that fear and that being scared. I mean, I think part of it is the adrenaline that you get, the sense of feeling alive and afraid. But the deeper we connect to God and the deeper we connect to our spiritual selves, the feeling we get from that is so much more fulfilling than any of these other dramatic kinds of experiences. True. And even in a horror film, think about this, Nathan, what does somebody, what reason is one of the characters oft in this horror film? Like what's, why then that there's some reason why it was them at that point of time? What did they, what did they do or not do? Or what did they do wrong? Have you noticed that? I don't, I mean, I honestly haven't seen a horror film for probably 20 something years. So I don't even know, like, yeah, whether it's a horror film or whether it's Jurassic Park. Okay. So, so somebody, yeah, so why somebody like killed or whatever, because they did something bad because they did something bad, right? They're a bad person. Yeah, correct. Yeah. And it could have been a minor thing or a major thing, typically somewhere in between or various, right? But it could even be because they were too fearful. So they deserved it. It could be because they were carrying too much weight. That's a classic Jurassic Park theme where it's, you know, why is it okay then? Why is it like there's a sacrifice there? But the guy's overweight and he's a little bit like annoying. And so you just, he's a bit lazy or, and so that's, that's called psychological projection because that's kind of all of us. And then you'd say, yeah, well, I'm like, I could actually put on a bit of weight. So I'm, I'm, I'm thin. So why, why am I saying that's me projecting? Well, that the weight that he's carrying is a sign of like maybe the laziness that I feel within myself that I know that I've, I've not been diligent in certain things, me seeing him get punished for his laziness and his slothfulness. And he is gluttony, which I wasn't gluttonous with food, but I was gluttonous with something else. And so I'm punishing myself through punishing that person. And then I feel relief now because my problem got dealt with through the death of somebody else. And this is, this is the atonement system that once you understand it, you realize that God, the only way God could save us was through it. And that's why you see the sacrificial system through the Bible. And you'd say, why would you do this God? It doesn't sound right. It doesn't sound right of why an animal should die in the, instead of a person. And then you realize that God never condoned the system. He only was speaking through the culture. And once you start understanding this, and you see all the verses, the verses clearly talk about it, I have not given you these things. I have, you know, when I led you, Jeremiah 722, when I led you, Father's Alpha Land of Egypt, I spake not over to them nor commanded them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. I can just give you one after the other after the other. But yeah, why would you do this God? And it's like, well, this is in you. And you can't escape it. You don't even realize it's going on. People think they're not religious at all. They think they're atheists. And they're watching themes that are so deeply connected to a belief of a God that punishes. And they get relief when they see this come full circle. And so then it makes sense when you see Jesus on the cross, you realize it's saving people from, from themselves. And it's, it's, so you can see the whole thing come full circle and God is paying your debt. But it's not, he didn't make it up. It's, it's your, it was your, your issue, your system. You required the death. God meets you now through it. Even though he didn't require it, God didn't require people to kill Jesus in order to forgive you. But you did. And it's hard for some people to admit that, to acknowledge it. I certainly have because I weaned myself off all those dark types of things. But there are occasions where I'm like, I've felt disconnected from God. I haven't been, you know, praying, connecting with God. And for sudden, suddenly it seems like super satisfying to me. I'm like, yeah, that's super interesting and fun and exciting seeing that happen to somebody for a second. I'm like, what is going on? Man, I'm so disconnected right now. And then, then I recalibrate. And, and I think coming back to your theme of what does the Bible say about the, the human experience? It does tell us that we do battle with the flesh through the life on earth. We never actually graduate to switching out what would be considered sinful flesh. And these are pretty kind of theological terms. And you get switched that out for holy flesh. And then you never have a single propensity to sin. So think about Adam and Eve in the garden. They had never sinned before. And so when they got tempted with the fruit, it wasn't like when we get tempted because it was, it was a different kind of concept because they didn't have anything to reference. They didn't have like their fathers and their fathers and their, you know, parents and mothers and having gone the same pathway, developing these thick neurological pathways that you develop by thinking the same thing over and over. They didn't have a propensity to this, whereas we do. And we then can strengthen ourselves against it. But it's for this reason, you never put yourself in a bad situation. I never go and like go have a sleepover with other females and think that I'm going to be fine because I'm so strong, because I know that I have what's referred to as sinful flesh. So I just don't put myself in those situations. And so having this healthy understanding of your limitations is actually part of that experience as well. But the Bible does talk about us finally trading that in for then, you know, no longer ever having any, any thought or any desire for the things that are wrong and apart from God. Does a bit of a detour a bit? No, that's really fascinating, actually. Do you know where it talks about that specifically? That's, I'd love to. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so you have a look at this immortality will, this mortality will put on immortality. This corruption will put on incorruption, mortality in corruption. I'll get you the verse. Corruption. And this you could refer to as being simply, you know, just a physical body. It's first Corinthians 1553 for this corruptible must put on incorruption. This mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall we be brought to pass the saying that it is written death is death is sorry, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written death is swallowed up in victory. Okay, so I will, I will say as well, this could be referring to people simply like no longer having a decaying body, not necessarily a decaying mind or conscience or propensity to sin. And then, but you, you, you keep stacking things here in the sense of looking to get more clarity. You look at other verses, for example, Romans 83, the carnal mind is enmity against God and cannot be subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So that's a, that's a great example. So it says the carnal mind. So then someone say, well, I don't have a carnal mind. I have a, I have a holy mind, but there's a real battle because you have to kind of go deep and admit, okay, why did it come as natural as breathing to think a thought of jealousy or a thought of, you know, violence to myself or somebody else or why? So you start realizing, you go ahead. I was just going to say, I was literally, I was just being interviewed on another podcast, and I was talking about this. I mean, look at a baby, right? What do we all love about babies, every person, even let's say somebody who has evil thoughts. I mean, I've seen the most, you know, gangster evil kind of people turn into an angel when a baby gets put in their arms. What is that? That's the purity of God, right? That's, that, that baby does not have evil thoughts. That baby does not have jealousy and vengeance. And in fact, even with my own children, and you could try and think of with yours, I think around the age when my kids even start to develop an ego, a sense of eye, a sense of identity, is somewhere between the ages of three and five, maybe where it's like, that's mine, right? Mine, maybe two, two, three, four years old, somewhere in there. My toy, my thing, you know, before then, you take something away from them, you know, you give them things. There's no attachment. There's no identity. There's no ego. That's learned. Yeah. That's learned. That's learned behavior. It's learned identity. It's learned attachment, because otherwise a baby is just pure. Like we all, you see a baby and you turn it, you melt into love. Every person does, right? Because that is the purest of pure, of, of God in your arms. It's not until that baby is conditioned by its surroundings, environment, parents, siblings, churches, schools, everything else that develops a sense of eye, this ego, this attachment to self, and then the separation from God, and then, you know, these thoughts of jealousy and fear and anger and all these things. I'm not saying any of those are bad or wrong. In fact, those are part of our human experience to recognize what's happening within us, identify the smaller self, ego with the larger self, as the, as the science of the Vedas describe. The lower self is the ego, the mind, the eye, the separation from God. The higher self is the soul, is the oneness with God. It's the connection to God. It's that, that's, that letting go of the attachment to the identity, that letting go of the ego, that letting go of the attachment to this physical world and realizing that our soul is infinite. And in fact, our highest purpose is to be one with God. And so this is ancient Vedic teachings that go back thousands of years, and yet you can find these same teachings in the Bible. This is what Jesus was also telling us, right? So Matthew 5, 8, blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God, pure in heart, and then we see God, right? We have to purify our hearts. 5, 9, blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God, for making peace in our family, in the world, in our communities, not fighting, not arguing, not bickering, not being jealous, not being angry, but making peace, then they shall be called the children of God. Matthew 5, 16, let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works and glorify your father, which is in heaven. So we open, we shine our light so bright in the work that we do in the world, that then we glorify God through our work, through that bright shiningness, right? Matthew 5, 38, ye have heard that it hath been said in I for 9, a tooth for tooth, right? But obviously is saying resist not evil, but whosoever shall smite thee on the right, she turned him the other. To do that is to have pure compassion. To have pure compassion, he's telling us how to be, how to live, right? Matthew 5, 48, be ye, therefore perfect, even as your father, which is in heaven, is perfect. He's not saying continue being a sinner. That's okay. He's not saying continue being angry and jealous and all of these things. He literally says in Ephesians 4, 26, be ye angry and sin not. Don't be angry. Don't sin. Let not the sun go down upon your wrath, meaning let go of that anger before the day ends. Forgive yourself, right? The only way to let go of anger is to forgive others that were angry towards, or to forgive ourselves if we're angry towards ourselves. Ephesians 4, 27, neither give place to the devil. Let him that stole still no more, right? Let no more corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth. And this is really powerful. 4, 31, 4, 32, Ephesians, let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and evil speaking be put away from you with all malice and be ye kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you. So yes, and I'm in many examples I found where yes, God has forgiven us no matter what. God will forgive you no matter what. But it doesn't say, but that's okay to, you know, keep sinning and being angry and being upset and judging others and doing all these things. It says, yeah, God will forgive you because God is pure love. God is love. God is the spirit that dwells within you. The love that is within you is God you and God and Jesus are one through that love. And yes, because God is love then you are forgiven because you can't forgive without love, right? Those two have to go hand in hand. You can't forgive somebody if you're angry at them. Yeah, I forgive you. You son of a, you know, it's like it doesn't work. You have to have find the love to truly forgive someone because to forgive someone means to let go, to let go of our ego attachment to what they did to us or same thing, our judgment to ourselves. We have to let go of that judgment. And then that's the only way to truly forgive is to let go. But that the, through that love, through God's love and through practicing what Jesus teaches us, He wants us to purify ourselves. That's what He's telling us. Blessed are the pure and heart for they shall see God. It is up to us to purify ourselves, to have a pure heart, a pure mind, a pure body. And that requires work, right? It requires work every day or requires deep contemplation, meditation, prayer. It requires practice. It requires healing our emotional traumas. And all these things are totally possible. And we see it every day. I've seen in my own life, you know where I came from. I came from the opposite extreme of all this. Angry hatred, violence, jealousy, depression, suicidal, robbing, stealing, cheating, drugging, the whole, as deep and far you could go down the path of the devil a human could possibly go before they were dead. That's where I was for my whole child, for my whole teenage years. And to come out the other side of that and to heal those traumas and to forgive those, forgive and forgive myself and to, you know, learn what love is and compassion is. And I'm still learning these things and getting better and improving and trying to, you know, be more loving and compassionate with my wife, with the people around me. It's like I still have, you know, things that trigger me from time to time and things where, you know, I get angry or whatever, but it's with the practice, with the connection to God, with the prayer to God, with the meditation. It's like more and more of those are falling away. My attachment to those things are falling away, the angers are falling away, you know, more and more. So I see it in my own life that you can purify yourself on the path to God. And in fact, Jesus tells us that's exactly what we should be doing every single day. It's true. Anyway, go back to you. Absolutely. No, it's powerful. It's, it's awesome. And I think that where, where you're quoting the verses and reading from them, you know, super well, like you're putting together the picture and it's, and it's powerful. It's profound. It, it's very clear that the scriptures teach this. And so, and I'm probably really good at bringing up this kind of challenge in the, you know, why is it that these scriptures are so clear and that people like me went to church kind of all my life, all my life. And people have, you know, seen that most often, again, this is, these are some broad strokes. You see, like, almost both realities, almost, you know, perfect in their perfect resolution. One is you see the Christians that are giving everything. And you know, we even saw some examples where we were at in Kenya together and we saw the people that were responding to that kind of cry for help were often Christians. And yeah, they're sure they're imperfect too. And there are some things you connected with them and other things you just, you know, didn't feel as connected with them in, in their way they engage, but nevertheless, their purity in wanting to do something and do that from out of a place of truly wanting to serve. And they, their net impact was positive and good. Now you have this other picture of why is it that, you know, people so often feel judged by Christians and feel feel so driven away from Christianity by Christians. And there's these massive scandals that are, that are out there and that it's, you know, these, these prolific Christian leaders that were leading the world and now the ones that are, you know, found to be having these affairs and be doing all kinds of things that are way beyond even that and, you know, being completely, you know, the opposite of everything you read. Why is this happening? And when, when these scriptures are so clear, did someone not teach it clear enough to them? Did they not read the Bible carefully enough? And did they miss these points? And so, you know, these are the big questions. And so sometimes it's the knowledge of these things that don't still cause people then to enact them. They know that that exists. But I'm saying the big contradiction is that there are the image of God that people are seeing is the opposite of, of what they hope to be and what they believe they're instructed to become. And they live under the threat of that God that is, that is really a reflection of themselves and a magnified version of themselves. And then it's impossible to escape that fear and that judgment and it brings out more and more bad behaviors. And all of it creates a desire for comfort and I need comfort. And the reason why I'm doing these drugs is because I'm, I'm tormented in my mind because I feel a disconnection. I feel a rejection and rejection, I would argue is one of the greatest things that people feel continually and especially in a theological religious context, people feel rejection from God without realizing it creates such an emptiness. And just the belief that God will love you if you do well is rejection in and of itself. And you think about even basic songs like Santa Claus is very much a depiction of God when you think about it. And because he's going to reward you and he's going to give you good toys. If you're good child, he's going to give you nothing of coal. If you're a bad boy, but I mean, look, the darker versions of Santa Claus is really crampus. You know, the German mythological being, but I mean, he'd really actually harm children. I'm not going to go into detail, but so these mythological concepts often have these dark underpinnings. But even in the playfulness of Santa Claus, you hear songs like Santa Claus is coming to town. He's making a list, he's checking it twice, he's going to find out who's naughty or not as Santa Claus is coming to town. So now you're going to be scored on what you've done and what you haven't done. And now you stand before God. God is ultimately going to find out everything you've done wrong because you know what you've done wrong better than anyone else. And this is a tormenting thought for you. So all you do is you live a life awaiting your own judgment and final rejection. And all of these things that, for example, you read for a lot of people, it's like, yeah, that's everything I'm not. And that's everything that I fail at. And I tried so hard to be all of those things. And now I can't do it anymore. So I don't even know what to call myself, but I just, and the thought of God just frightens me. So I don't even know if I believe in God anymore. And people are losing that based on this image of God that would do that, that rejection is still there. And I'm saying, what if that was all a lie? And what if you just, what if you understood that God will always love you no matter what? And that is true. And so that's where I agree with the people that are saying this other thing, but they're taking it to, they're taking the power out of it, because often still the people that are pushing that will still say God burns in health for people in health forever for people that didn't get it right. They didn't say the right words. They didn't say Jesus or they didn't do, I don't know, it's weird because then they're saying that you don't have to do anything. So why do even people go to hell anyway? So it doesn't make any sense. But let's say that they do, you know, often people that are teaching that that gives them, again, it's another atonement process, it's a substitutional atonement. Well, if these people die and go to hell, that's the reason why I can go to heaven, because my wrong deeds are now projected onto other people that go into the bad place. So I can go into the good place. And it's really deep. And that's just how minds work until people can understand that. You have to realize that you're a total pagan. If you want to understand how it all works. And again, I don't mean pagan in a sense that like, there's a lot of amazing things in native cultures, native medicine, etc, etc. But I mean, I mean the dark side of the pagan ritual, unless you realize that that's part of your philosophy, you can't understand all these things of why you naturally assume that somebody else deserves something. You're trading off like they get bad, so I can get good. The sacrifice of the innocent for the guilty is also common. That's why Christ then dies. He's innocent. So these are common concepts for cultures. You have the virgins that would be put strapped to a volcano so that they would make a tone for the people. These are these are the dark thoughts that plague humanity. But my point there of the full circle of people understanding that if you understand that you're loved by God, irrespectively, and then that has the cleansing power. It allows basically everything you read, it personifies it fully in God. Now when you worship God, which is we are not you still using those words, but it's basically you adore God, you honor God, you just seek to be loved by God. And that's the simple process of worshiping. It's just to be loved by God and you enjoy to be loved. And that's really what worship is to come in presence with God like that. Then it's beautiful. Then it's everything that you hoped and believed of, everything you yourself should be yourself and kind to others. God is the fullness of that always and he never stops doing that and being that and he will always love and accept. He doesn't judge and he doesn't kill. Once people understand this, then that death cycle then finally ends and then you feel completely loved and accepted by God. That's the transforming power. Then that creates the behaviors because it's the threat that creates the behaviors because the threat takes away the comfort and the comfort that you get from God now has to find, you have to find comfort some way. It's going to be drug sex. It's going to be power. And then so you'll do anything to get power that will create stealing. And all of these are downstream results of simply rejecting God because you believe that he rejects you. It's such a profound statement and an eye-opening perspective. You shared a lot there. I mean, I encourage people, rewind it and listen to it again and take some notes because it's a really deep perspective that you share. To your question or to your, you kind of raise the question or the idea about people being confused and saying, "Well, if I'm not all these things and I'm not perfect and I'm not and I get angry and I get upset and I'm not pure of heart and all these things that Jesus tells us to be, then I'm not going to be accepted by God and getting to heaven and all these things." So what's the point anyway? What I tell people is, or what I would say, in fact, is read Matthew 633 because this is so powerful. This has been so powerful for me where he's talking to, you know, he's, this is part of the Sermon on the Mount and he's talking to everybody there and he's saying, "Look, have no concern for your life, for your clothing, for your food, for all these things because God is there to take care of it. You don't need to have any concern about any of these things." He said, "But seek ye first." He said, "Don't seek these things. Seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you." Right? And he's talking about everything in our life. He's saying, "Look, if whatever it is that you're looking for, I mean, you could take that to everything. It gives a lot of metaphors and examples of, you know, birds and different things. It's like your life, your livelihood, your well-being, your everything that you desire and look for in this life, first seek the kingdom of God and his righteousness and all else will be added unto you." And so, okay, yeah, so seek the kingdom of God. That's, that's pretty clear. So the next question clearly should be, okay, where? Where is the kingdom of God? That was my next question, right? Where? He said, "Seek, okay." You know, it's like, seek Lake Michigan, okay? If I don't have a map, I've never heard, heard about it. Like, where's Lake Michigan, right? I live in Africa or something like, where is that? So where's the kingdom of God? Well, he also tells us in multiple passages where the kingdom of God is. The first, the first one or one of the first says, Luke 17, 21, "Neither shall they say it's here or there, for behold, the kingdom of God is within you." The kingdom of God is within you. So seek ye first the kingdom of God and all else will be added unto you. Well, where do I do that? Inside you, you want another confirmation that the kingdom of God is inside you? 1 Corinthians 3, 16. No, ye not, that ye are the temple of God. Basically, let me translate, let me speak it in normal language. Don't you know that you are the temple of God and that the spirit of God dwelleth in you? God, the temple of God, the kingdom of God is inside of you. And what's very fascinating, I know this Bible conversation, this is exactly what the yogis have been teaching out of India for thousands of years, that through meditation practices, going inside yourself is where you connect to God, is where you become one with God, where you speak to God, where God speaks to you and guides you. Through meditation, Jesus said the same thing that was spoken thousands of years ago in India. The kingdom of God is within you and that's where we must seek. So if we're looking for, if we want to believe Jesus and tell us, where do we find this righteousness, we have to go inside and we go inside through meditation. And people who think, oh, meditation isn't in the Bible, there are dozens and dozens and dozens of times in the Bible where they talk about meditation, right? So people go, that's some wubu yogi thing, no, it's in the Bible, it's in Genesis, it's in Joshua, it's in Psalms, right? It tells us about meditate, meditate, meditate, meditate, go within, this is where we discover God. So this is where we discover God for ourselves, to answer that question of, well, how do I purify myself? How do I become that, you know, pure person like Jesus is telling us, how do I find that forgiveness? How do I find that love of God? How do I know that for myself? Not just because I'm saying it or you're saying or some pastor saying it, but how do you find that love and forgiveness and kindness for yourself? You go deep into meditation and in meditation, you start to feel peace. There's a beautiful thing about meditation. The deeper we go to meditation, the more peace we feel. Well, isn't peace just an experience of love, right? We feel love, isn't that peace? You can be so in so much turmoil in your life, anger, hatred, fear, but through meditation, through breathing and quieting the mind and reflecting inwardly to the kingdom of God, we can connect to that love and to that peace of God. When we open our eyes and we bring that into our daily life, now we are doing Jesus's work here on the planet that he told us that we are here to do. And I've experienced that in my own life, meditation has saved and changed my life. How did I overcome all those things I talked about from my childhood, all that traumas and all of the addictions and all of the evilness was through meditation. It was through meditation. And the deeper I meditate now, the more I learn of the scientific meditative practices, it's like the deeper experiencing I'm having of God continuously and it's beautiful and it's powerful. And so the solution is there. It's right in front of us. You know, and if I could share a quick story and then I'll hand it back to you, my friend invited me to 1122 church last week, Christian church. I've never been to a church that big in my life. It was like a giant rock concert. It was crazy. Have you ever been there? Have you ever been there? I haven't been to that one, but I've been to many things just like that. Yeah, I went, you know, the little church, we go to a unity church on Sundays. There's like 30, 40 people there, a little small band and stuff, a little homely intimate. And so then I went to this one last Thursday and I was like, holy crap, I'm in a rock concert. What is going on? He's like, he's like, yeah, let's let's go sit up at the top and the nosebleeds. I was like, are you kidding me? I was like, let's sit right up front. So we sat up for a few rows back because, you know, the front ones were reserved for the VIP, you know, people, of course, they got other seats. So we sat three or four rows back and they go right into this, you know, like Christian rock songs, the first couple. And I was singing along with it and just really getting into it. And then by the third song, I just closed my eyes and I just went into meditation and just, you know, hands in prayer and I'm just meditating. I was just meditating on Jesus. I was just, Jesus, I'm here for you to show me yourself, you know, show me the way to God, show me, show me oneness with God, teach me, show me your ways, you know, be with me. I love you, Jesus. Just calling on constantly, right? Eyes closed, meditating on Jesus. And, and I kid you not. I don't know how long into the song, but all of a sudden, up above the stage, you know, my eyes were close, but I could see like up above the stage was this came in this massive, glorious, robed figure, white flowing robes, you know, long hair, beard, like I couldn't see the face clear. It was more like a silhouette, just radiating so much light and energy and love towards us. And it just like started bringing a tear to my eye, you know, I just like, thank you, Jesus, and I could see how beautiful being in a Christian church like that is for all these people that are praying to Jesus and wanting to, you know, know Jesus and follow Jesus and know God and be with God. And I just thought, because I used to have so much judgment about Christianity because of the judgment that I've seen from Christians over my life. And so to open myself and to really go into Christian churches and be like, no, no, I'm here for Jesus. Like, I don't care about anything else. I want to be, I want to speak to Jesus, hear from Jesus, be guided by Jesus, be one with Jesus. And then to see this Jesus-like figure, you know, it was clearly Jesus, you know, up above this, just massive, just radiating. And it just made me feel like, yeah, this is, he's here with us, just radiating all this love and light and positive energy to anybody who calls upon his name, right? And then I, you know, and then I opened my eyes and I was just like, you know, a couple tears. It was just like really, really powerful. The music really helped me go deep, actually. And it was funny because my, recently it was my acupuncturist who used to be, he's a traditional Chinese medicine acupuncturist, you know, used to be in the Buddhism, but then was atheist and then found Jesus. And so it was him who told me, you know, a few months back, he's like, he was talking to me about, he's like, yeah, do you know Jesus? He was kind of judging a little bit and he's like, yeah, no, you need to know Jesus and you need Jesus in your life. You know, he's kind of preaching a bit. And I was like, he's like, okay, I just sat with it. And then I was just sharing with him some stories. And I was like, yeah, I know Jesus. I feel Jesus is in my life. And another time I saw him, I shared with him years and I are humanitarian trip to Kenya recently. And then he was like, after he heard some stories from me, you know, he, after a few times of seeing him, he's like, he's like, you know, Jesus more than I do, you're closer to Jesus to me. He's like, I need to do more of what you're doing. You're actually doing what he teaches, you know, go out and help others and give yourself and all this stuff. And I said, well, you can it, you know, this is, this is within all of us. This is, yeah, Jesus is leading us and guiding us to live like he did to do these things that he did, right, to serve others in need. And when we do all, you know, we seek God first, we seek the kingdom of God within us, all else then is given to us, all else is shared with us. And it's, anyway, that was a really beautiful experience. And it was really funny because the one topic that I think has kept me out of Christian churches for so long was the one topic that the pastor decided to preach on when I went there last Thursday, which is why, which is the topic we're talking about today is the exact way we're talking about today, which is funny because you and I, I had this topic planned for us to discuss since we discussed this like two months ago or whenever we talked about doing this. This is in my notes of topic number two. And then he preached on this topic of the only way to heaven is to proclaim Jesus as your Lord and Savior. And it doesn't matter how much good you do. It doesn't matter how mindful you are. It doesn't matter how much you atone. It doesn't matter what you do in your life. If you don't proclaim Jesus as your Lord and Savior, then you will not get into heaven. You will burn in hell. And I'm like, okay, so here's the exact topic. And I just sat there and I just sat with it, just not judging, just trying to fully understand it and be with it and be, be at peace with it and like, and look at all the other beauty and all the other goodness that was in, in that room, that was in that church, right? And what a perfect experience this happened last Thursday. And then we're literally having the discussion on this today that we had planned like two months ago. Is that not divine synchronicity from God? Like, how could that not be? You know what I mean? Oh, just a coincidence. Like, tell me how crazy of a coincidence that is. Yeah, that's awesome, man. That's awesome. And I think that it, what it did was it, it pushed the boundaries of the conversation. And, and there are things there that it's, you notice even in my answer, I could have given you the exact answer that maybe is, no, that's completely wrong. I can't believe those guys. And, and it's, it's 100% this. And, and then what people like him would say is like, well, Jonathan, you're a legalist. You believe that you can get to heaven by virtue of the law and how well you perform for God. And, and so, like, so these conversations go every which way and, but there is clarity in, in at all. And it's, you know, the overarching issues are the ones where it's like, well, like, what's the issue here? What do you believe is the thing that stops you from getting into heaven? Where, where is that boundary? Is that, is that God saying like you haven't done enough? Because that is the issue that creates all of it. And remember, God is always a mirror to us. So naturally, why do you think basically every human that's kind of, that's ever I've talked to on the subject has always had the thought that maybe they would get to heaven and that God would tell them that sorry, you don't belong here. And here's the reasons. And it's like a horrifying thought. People have these dreams of like when they get taught about the rapture in church, which I believe is like, there's some different Bible verses that they're confusing with that. But the Bible does talk about everyone getting caught up to heaven or like all people that hear his voice. Let's say that way. But not necessarily the way that it's taught. And then, you know, then you see these images of like the pilot, something gets taken, but he's flying a plane. So then that crashes. And so this like amazing Hollywood productions and then exacerbated these thoughts and feelings that other people get taken and they sit there waiting and people are horrified. Probably some people they're listening can really relate to all these things. And so the need for security is huge. But that the absence of that security is coming from the fact that you're the one, it's your image. That's you. Because you're just think about, okay, if you want to get real with this, think about when you're hanging out with your friends, quote unquote. And then what things did you just say to your spouse about the friends that you were just hanging out with? Oh, yeah. Well, I said that I didn't like this about them and this about them and how could they possibly do that? And it's unbelievable that they do this and they did that and I can't believe it. No, those guys wear masks. They're so brainwashed. Oh, those guys don't wear masks. They're like anti people and they're it's taking me like two or three years to like really get to a place of, you know, having compassion for people in that regard and understanding like that was not easy for me. That was not easy. So I get. Yeah. And that's the image of God right there. So now, of course, you're going to see that image of God. That's the image that you see God is making a list, checking it twice. And he knows everything you've screwed up on. And that is just a complete torment. So what do you think that people do? Well, God just doesn't even look at it. He just looks for me saying the word and then I'm in because everything else creates so much fear and and uncertainty. And I do actually agree with the one thing that he's saying about the fact that it's not our good works that get us into heaven. I do agree with that. I think it's a very powerful thing because it gets more into the identity of who you are to God. Like my son doesn't come into this house because he did something like he was a good boy and then I let him in the house. He comes in the house because he's my son. And so that's the concept that they're trying to get to when they say just confess the name of Jesus. Basically, just say I want in on the family of God. Just just well, but then, but then you're not doing it to convince God so that he lets you in. He was the one that was saying, calm, you're invited. I can't kick down your door and grab you by the throat and pull you in here and still be a God of love and freedom of choice. You've got to accept this. If you want to, you don't have to accept it, but I want you to accept this. And what do I need to do? And so in this case, it's like I'm willing to die a painful, bloody death because I know that that atonement system is the one that is going to match what you believe needs to happen to you. So now, once you now believe that that's taken off you and that Christ has taken that. And again, so a lot of people haven't gotten out of what I am explaining is an old covenant understanding. They believe that God had to kill Jesus in order to accept you. So there's lots of different frameworks that make it very hard for them to fully understand what's going on here. God is fully accepting you, has always accepted you. And he's invited you in. And now your rejection is the big thing that's standing in the way of this. And then that causes all these wrong deeds. And then these are the things you bring up and you heap on yourself. You're storing up wrath into the day of judgment. This is the wrath that you're storing up within yourself. And this is the issue. And God is seeking to save people from this. And these are the some of the bigger understandings that really help to give people complete certainty that God will love and forgive except unconditionally of all people. And yet our deeds God is seeking to bring us away from these dark and destructive patterns because he wants to see his image reflected and so he doesn't want to see other suffer or I suffer. So that's his longing. He longs for that complete image of what he designed us for, even in this world of sin. And we have a propensity to evil. We do have a lineage. We do have our epigenetic memories of our parents and their parents. And those things are all in us. But God's light can shine through that and it can break it. We've seen examples all through history. And today you'll find the hardest of criminals becoming kind and benevolent. And these are real. There are cases where, yeah, sure, you can't verify to know it's true or not. But people that lived and died and you watched their life and they completely exhibited these characteristics. And so that's the power of the love of God, of what it can do for people to transform the life. But I believe that that fullness of that transformation actually comes in a knowledge of our complete acceptance with God outside of our behavior. So once you take away from somebody, the belief that they have to be formed to be loved of God, they actually start to perform when I perform is the wrong word. They actually start to exhibit beautiful characteristics because they're unsolicited. They're not forced. And they're not doing it to try to gain something. They're only doing it because they're loved. And they're just loving with the love that they've been loved with. And it's an impulse of the heart. And that's what the truth, the truth of this matter is as far as I'm concerned. I love that. It's an and and it's not an and or situation, right? It's a it's a it's both both can be true. Both can be true. Yes, you know, we claim Lord Jesus as Lord and Savior. And you know, that brings us closer to God. And yes, we purify our lives and our hearts and our words and our deeds. And that brings us closer to God. Both can be true at the same time, right? It's it's not that you have, you know, it's the doing good that gets you, you know, seeing good in the in the eyes of God. It's that we, you know, yes, we should do good. And yes, we're forgiven. Like both of those are true. They can be true at the same time. And I love I've been listening to the gospel of Sri Ramakrishna, which is an incredible enlightened being who lived in the late 1800s early 1900s in India. Highly recommend reading that book or listening to it for anybody who wants to learn from somebody who is highly considered a saint had all kinds of incredible things and miracles that happened to him and that he, you know, performed for others. And he was on a deep, deep search for God since he was a little child. Or as a teenager, he was already running a temple, but he never read books. Everything he received was from spirit. And he would teach and the scholars would come and listen and say, Oh, my gosh, how do you know all of this? It's because he, you know, this is what all the ancient texts say, but it's because he'd been living it and receiving the downloads from God and then sharing it and even, you know, impressing the greatest scholars of the time. And so his life was documented by his followers. They had, you know, recorded many of the talks that he had given and kept document of it and wrote, you know, turn into a book. It's called the gospel of Sri Ramakrishna. What he talks about in there is he, you know, he became a devout Christian for some time. And he said, he said, yes, every, he became a devout Muslim for some time, right? He discovered God through through the Vedas, through Vedanta, through the different Indian scientific Indian practices of discovering God. But then he went, he wanted to understand each religion and do they also lead you to God. And what he discovered was as a, as a deep, devout practice in Christian, he became one with Jesus. He knew Jesus deeply and intently and it brought him to the same God. And same when he practiced as a Muslim deeply and intently, it brought him to the same God, to the same experience that, you know, he talks about how every religion, if we truly dive into the essence of it, which is to know God, is to truly know God in ourselves, to be one with God, to have God in our lives, that they all lead to the same God. There's not a different God for anybody. It's all the same God. There's one God and they all lead you to the same place. And anyway, his, his life story is just unbelievable, incredible and definitely, definitely worth listening to for anybody who's interested. But I know we're actually three minutes, three minutes over time. So any, anything you want to add to wrap up, brother? Oh, sure. No, thanks for, thanks for having me on to chat about this. It's really awesome. I appreciate it because these things have really helped me a lot and they have a really practical bearing on my life. And yeah, I'm really grateful. These things have helped me immensely with my marriage. I've had a heart of marriage then. Yeah, no one can compare, but it's, yeah, there's definitely like different things where there's just being various challenges that have come in life that for me, I couldn't do it with my just a kind of program that I got given or the way that I saw how to do life or respond to situations or challenges. I needed to me, like, just immense perspective and power and love and comfort. And I needed to understand God differently because I, a lot of my problems in life have all come from a wrong view of God that have caused me then to feel fear and act in ways that I'm like, what I'm thinking, what's coming out of me? Why am I acting like this? Under stress, under real pressure, under feeling disrespected or being in the state of where I'm concerned about my basic necessities or whatever it is, why am I acting like this? And so realizing how deeply connected that is to how I seek God and how I connect with God. And then finding that there is so much peace that comes from being in God's arms, being in the truth of the love that God has outside of a system of rejection and punishment. So anyway, this healed me in so many different ways. Like we talked about even on the last podcast, I talked about battling against things like temptation last. This is ever present. So you just go out, walk in public, you have the opportunity because people, the dress culture is pretty out there in 2024. And so your eyes can take in all this and the need for comfort, the flicking through what movie choices or just even scrolling on your Facebook or anything. All these different clues and cues for people, men, women, and so definitely not to single out any sex. All these are cues to then go and satisfy that need for comfort. And so it's because of that I've been willing to lean in and ask questions like the ones that we've been discussing and find love, find comfort from God that I've had a strength that has carried me, that has helped me, that has healed me, that has caused me then to not find a need for these things to come from a place of, no, I'm full, I'm happy, I'm content. Even though, yeah, sure, do I go through things? There's my wife, you know, my wife going through sexual trauma and childhood then causing that to reject me sexually as, you know, in our marriage, then easily, then I could say you will, here's a good justification for this to go and indulge passions in regard to, you know, pornography and these things. But the power of finding love from God is what's pulled me out of that so that I don't have, and I don't have the, the drawer. And so, and, and so, you know, putting away these, these sins and so to speak in a religious context, to putting away the sins or putting away the behaviors, behaviors that are destructive. I don't know of a single marriage that really claims that it's really enriched their marriage. Some people, I think they may be claiming it, but it's, um, there's obviously lack of intimacy and connection there for that to need to be found in separate silos and areas. So there's like real practical benefits to this guys and whatever that is, whatever you're battling with, it, it's limitless. I mean, I just referenced something that was one of the biggest grips and challenges that I faced that I really wondered, how do you ever find your way out of this? And I didn't really fully think maybe it was even possible. You just had to kind of, you know, white knuckle it all through your life, but go deeper with the love you have with God and you'll find that whatever you're struggling with, you will find victories that you never thought possible and apply that. It's up to you. You get to do that. Look at how much joy and certainty and confidence it brings into your life and look at how much confidence it brings you inside of God's love. Look at how much other people then see the benefits of that. They feel loved by you because look, you've got one shot. If you believe in this in a theological context of eternal life, you've got one shot to be in a world where you can love people that have not been loved or people that have challenges and pain and loss and suffering and respond. That's not going to happen the other side of heaven from a Christian context. There's no more pain, no more suffering, no more death. So here's your opportunity to really let the love of God shine through you to reach a broken world. Let's use this opportunity. People need us right now and people need us to go deep with God because we can't do this by ourselves and we can't do it on our own. We need the love and power of God. That's the biggest thing. Preach, brother. Preach. I love it. I love it. I'm just going to end with this verse, 1 John 4 16, "And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love, and he that dwelleth in love, dwelleth in God, and God in him." There's dwell and love, y'all. Let's figure out how to do it. Let's go deep inside. Let's meditate. Let's pray. Let's connect to that love. Love triumphs over all. All, all things are triumphed under love, the love of God, the love of each other. And it's not easy, but with God, we can do it. And with practice, it becomes easier and easier and easier. I know in my own life, you know in your own life, and I know many others can testify that as well. So thank you, brother. Appreciate you. Love these conversations. And as always, like before, we want to hear from you guys. Let us know your thoughts and comments on this particular topic. You know, post them below. Share this with other people you want to have conversations with. Maybe get together in small groups and, you know, listen to parts of this and discuss it amongst yourselves and share it back with us. This is meant to be a dialogue, a conversation, you know, a community discussion. So we heard from some of you how much you love the first one. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this one and other topics you want us to cover as well. Let us know in the comments. So thank you. I wish you all so much health and happiness and peace. Be well. Thank you for listening to the Nathan Crane podcast. Please make sure to subscribe and share this on social media. Then head over to nathancrain.com for your free ebook. So when we're talking about, you know, what are these underlying cause and conditions of these chronic diseases? Cancer, diabetes, heart disease, they all have very similar, if not, identical causes. And that's the thing is when we get to the root cause of these diseases, we can not only prevent these diseases from ever happening, but empower our bodies to heal from them. In every one of our cells, we have tens in hundreds of thousands of chemical reactions that are happening every second that are cycling back and forth and like sort of a yin and yang. And you know, for me, the soul, soul's purpose is evolution. It doesn't care about comfort. It cares about evolution. And so I think so long as we are following our soul, then we will evolve. And I think what sometimes blocks us from living our purpose, from manifesting that next level of our expression is we have not evolved. There is also a time for letting go all the expectations and relax and just breathe and be grateful for what you have achieved. [MUSIC]