Stumped
Leading the way for women in boardrooms
As the Women’s T20 World Cup has been moved from Bangladesh to the UAE, Alison Mitchell, Jim Maxwell and Charu Sharma ask if it will still generate the same interest with the home crowd and if more countries should have offered to host.
Plus, we debate how to can get more women into leadership roles in cricket after the ICC launched a campaign to do just that. We are joined by Chair of the Northern Superchargers Kirsty Bashforth who tells us about her journey into the role.
To mark 150 years of Test Cricket, a standalone celebratory men's Test match will be played between Australia and England in Melbourne in 2027. Jim Maxwell goes back to 1977 to tell us about the centenary celebrations that happened at the MCG and what it was like being in the crowd.
Photo: A general view as players of Northern Superchargers huddle prior to The Hundred Eliminator match between Northern Superchargers Women and Welsh Fire Women at The Kia Oval on August 26, 2023 in London, England. (Photo by Alex Davidson - ECB/ECB via Getty Images)
- Duration:
- 38m
- Broadcast on:
- 22 Aug 2024
- Audio Format:
- mp3
Welcome to Stumped, a podcast that talks about cricket. Yep, that's about it. Cricket! How to play it, watch it, and love it, whether you're in England, India, Australia, and everywhere in between. Share it, review it, and rate it please. Podcasts from the BBC World Service are supported by advertising. This podcast is brought to you by eHarmony. The dating app to find someone you can be yourself with. Why doesn't eHarmony allow copy and paste in first messages? Because you are unique, and your conversations should reflect that. eHarmony wants you to find someone who will get you. How are you going to know who gets you? If people see you the same generic conversation starters, they message everyone else. Conversations that actually help you get to know each other. Imagine that. Get who gets you on eHarmony. Sign up today. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. With the price of just about everything going up during inflation, we thought we'd bring our prices down. So to help us, we brought in a reverse auctioneer, which is apparently a thing. Mint Mobile unlimited, premium wireless. Get 30-30, get 30, get 30, get 20-20, get 20-20, get 20-20, get 15-15, 15-15, just 15 bucks a month. So, give it a try at mintmobile.com/switch. $45 up from payment equivalent to $15 per month. New customers on first three-month plan only. Taxes and fees extra. Speed slower above 40 gigabytes of detail. For the BBC World Service, an association with ABC and Akashfani. This is Stumps. Hello and welcome to Stumps, your intercontinental hit of news, features and debate from the quirky world of cricket. I'm Alison Mitchell in London, back from a short break in Jersey. That's part of the Channel Islands, so not too far off the North Coast of France. Very pleasant it was too. We've since then had the 100 finals for men and women. And now Tess Cricket is back with Sri Lanka taking on England here, and what I'm afraid has been a very chilly and quite glum Manchester. So, let's hope some isn't over just yet. Ah, well, if it's not raining, it ain't Manchester. I guess it's Jim Maxwell from the ABC here in Sydney. We're having this sort of pre-season speculation about is Steve Smith going to open for Australia this summer. And Nick Hoppley, as we'll be talking a bit later about making way at cricket Australia, so they have to start looking for a new CEO. I'm Charles Richelman, Bangalore, and with the Indian Monsoon on, if it ain't raining, it ain't bangler either, because it's raining just about every day, and that's been a bit of a problem for our premium Karnataka T20 tournament, the Maharaja trophy, which I was doing. I say it was because I've taken a day off and probably need to take a couple of the days off because my back's really sore. Sorry about that. But hey, we've got to be up for some, some running non-fumes right now. But let's do this. Thanks for making the effort, Cherry. We appreciate it. Hopefully you won't have to grow new way through the programme. And I'm coming up this week, we're going to ask what can be done to get more women into leadership roles in cricket. We'll hear from the female chair of Northern Superchargers, Kirsty Bashforth. But first, a late change in venue for the upcoming Women's T20 World Cup. It's been moved from Bangladesh because of civil unrest in the country, and it will now be played in the United Arab Emirates. Dubai and Sharjah will host the matches between the third and 20th of October, and the ICC have explained that a number of governments of the teams taking part in the World Cup had issued travel advisories against going to Bangladesh. So that just made it unfeasible for the tournaments be hosted there. They do say that Bangladesh retains hosting rights. And in a statement, the ICC have said that they look forward to taking an ICC global event to Bangladesh in the near future. But, Jim, that is a big blow for the country. Isn't it for Bangladesh? Not hosting the tournament, but it also feels like a bit of a blow for the tournament itself because you can't imagine the crowds are going to match the fervor that we would have seen if it was hosted in Bangladesh. All very disappointing, but that's the reality in Bangladesh with the upheaval there. Well, hopefully they can make it flow and go. There's clearly a big television audience potentially, but nothing beats a crowd as we've seen in recent ICC World Cup events of all sorts. You need the atmosphere. So I don't know what they're going to do to make it work, but it seems a reasonable alternative given the short notice to make a call. And, yeah, we'll watch and see. Yeah, I mean, Zimbabwe showed interest in hosting, but I think there's a potential worry over the epochs outbreak in Africa at the moment. But then Sri Lanka were also interested, but then as Charis alluded to that part of the world at the moment, the rainy season. So that wasn't going to be particularly viable. I mean, the UAE have hosted men's T20 World Cups in the fairly recent past 2021, and the IPL was staged there in 2020. So no stranger to hosting games. And hopefully that will mean that more people will turn out, and it's a very international community, isn't it, in the UAE? Charis, last week, BCCI Secretary Jay Shah had said India couldn't host the World Cup because, yes, partly monsoon season, but also because they're hosting the Women's ODI World Cup next year, and they don't want to host World Cups in two consecutive years. I mean, is that a fair excuse or do you reckon they should have stepped in as cricket's powerhouse? Well, I don't think the Indian board needs an excuse, but it's not a question of couldn't so much because I think the monsoon really goes away by late September. And there's a fair amount of cricket being played even now during the monsoon. So that's probably not the reason, much more so, and not a question of consecutive World Cups either, because really, I mean, the more the merrier in India, it's more probably to do with the fact that there's a little bit of tension between India and Bangladesh right now, for whatever reasons I don't want to get into all sorts of other political or other socio-political situations. But I think India could easily have hosted the Women's World Cup because of the infrastructure here. But perhaps, of course, the UAE is ideally placed because not much goes on in there. They have the grounds and they have just about every other logistical end covered, except as both of you alluded, that I don't think it's going to be very well attended, which is a bit of a shame because you need that at the ground to be able to create the fervor on television and elsewhere. I do think India could have hosted it. They've got many grounds, and even though there are some series in India, home series, but with so many grounds, maybe 25 that can easily host international matches, I really think India could have put their hat in the ring. But Alice, even though it's October, and it could be a little cold in England, almost all this is, could England have not stepped forward? Yeah, it's an interesting one, isn't it? I mean, I was looking to see how deep into the year cricket has been played in recent times. In October, the cricket season mostly finishes in September. There was a circumstance. 2021, that's right. The men's county season finished on the third of October, which is the latest that I can recall, the cricket season professionally ever finishing in England. So, yes, whether, of course, would be a factor. I mean, sometimes we have, you know, beautiful balmy September. Sometimes in September, you really feel that kick of autumn, and you can be sitting in a freezing commentary box in the weather kicks in. And certainly, October, you're much more likely to have rain. I also just wonder whether, you know, by then, yes, grounds have planned for it to be the off-season. So, some of them, some of them would even have like pop concerts ready to be staged on their grounds, not least winter functions and so on. But Alice, do you have enough grounds? I think you do, even if some grounds are booked for something else. And too, is it the cold or is it rain in all of October or the first time at any rate? It would be sort of rain rather than actual colds. I mean, crikey, it's chilly and Manchester at the moment. But, you know, we can have very mild Octobers. You just don't know. But I hadn't heard that the ECB was necessarily thinking of it or that, you know, the ICC, we're pushing for them at all to host it. I mean, I think with the UAE, there's a convenience factor, which certainly, you know, would have been the case in England. You don't have to take internal flights. You can drive between, you know, two venues, say, but certainly Dubai and Sharjah, they're what, 30 minutes apart by car. So, logistically, for staging that tournament, you know, the two grounds are close by. There's not too much logistics in terms of moving teams around that sort of thing. And I do hope that, you know, because is that multinational community in UAE that people will turn out to watch? Like, there will be lots of Indian expats there. There are England expats, Australia expats. But, you know, we know it is, it is not the same. And those grounds don't have a history of being full of spectators, do they? Well, if it's India, Pakistan, you'll fill up a stadium. Otherwise, I must confess, I don't think so. And I'm a little surprised that Abu Dhabi is also not one of the venues, because normally these multi-national tournaments are held in Abu Dhabi, Dubai, and Sharjah. But they have access to those three grounds at about maybe 45 minutes to an hour apart, because there's a lot more traffic collision now, unless you're using helicopters. Even with the highway. Yeah, exactly. Well, we'll see then, UAE, it is, it's hoped that people do turn out on the competition. Can be a success, because so much has been built, hasn't it? Ever since, really, the MCG was sold out in the 2021 year, wasn't it? Just after, oh, no, sorry. It's just before the pandemic struck. That was, I mean, early 2020, when the MCG set that record and Katy Perry was dancing on the stage. So we won't have any of that in the UAE, but I hope it's still a successful tournament. Well, this is Stumped from the BBC World, sir. This season, Instacart has your back to school. 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That's linkedin.com/results. Terms and conditions apply. Linkedin, the place to be, to be. Chris, I'm Alison Mitchell. And if you've missed anything from Stumped, you can download and subscribe to the podcast via your usual podcast provider. And you can check us out on YouTube as well. You'll find us on the BBC World Services YouTube channel. On last week's show, the captain of Brazil's women's team, Roberta Moretti Avery, was very open about her challenges and how she's overcome them. I went to UK again for the first time since the burnout in 2022. I considered different because the turn to UK was amazing. I had fun, I enjoyed, I played cricket with a smile in my face, really leaving the moment in a positive way. So it shows that if you open up, if you seek help, these moments can come back in a much better space of mind for you. So I think talking is important because of knowledge and sharing and helping others. Next on Stumped, how can more females get into leadership roles in cricket? The ICC have just launched the latest edition of their 100% cricket future leaders program. And I've been a mentor on that program before. This year, it's focusing on developing women who are in administrative positions in cricket. Now, our producer Charlotte Swift has been looking at the board makeup of the 12 full member nations of the ICC and the percentage of women on those boards who are making crucial decisions for the game is just 17%. And that is spread across only seven of those 12 boards, five have no women at all. More on that in a moment. But I've been speaking with Kirsty Bashford, who is chair of one of the 100 teams in England, Northern Superchargers, to find out about her experience of being in a top leadership role in cricket. And a first arster just how that role came about for her. This is, I've just finished my second season as the chair, which has been an absolute immense privilege as well as a just a joy. I applied for the role a year and a half ago. I grew up in a family sort of surrounded by sport and from the Isle of Man, and there's a lot of two-wheeled sport, my cycles, bicycles, etc. But I grew up with a grandfather who played rugby for Ireland, a father who played national level sport in the Isle of Man and became a sports master. So always watched sport, big man United fan, and I wanted to, I've always wanted to be involved in sport in leadership, combining my corporate background with my sporting passion. So when this came up, I applied, never thought I'd get the role and did. So I've thrown myself into it with relish. And what does the role of chair of a franchise, in this case Northern Superchargers in 100 competition, what does that entail? So given the stage of the competition that it is, it's only had four years, just completed its fourth year of playing, although it's been around for about seven years. The role is still sitting inside the ECB structure. So each of the eight teams is set up as an independent legal structure, but fully funded and sort of overseen by the ECB. So I am the independent chair. So there is some governance, you know, we have to be accountable for the finances, which are, we're given a budget, we have to run that. We're accountable for signing off the draft strategy, the players, ensuring the staff are in place, coaches, etc. So that's one element. But I think the bigger element, given the stage, the competition is an ambassadorial one. So I take every opportunity I can to engage with people about the statistics, about the market, we're trying to go for and just take every opportunity for every interview to talk to people and bring cricket and this new structure we've got across the men and women in England and Wales to people's consciousness. And what is the gender balance amongst the board that Northern Superchargers, where you sit? Yes, it's not, it's not tremendous, I have to say. I mean, I am the chair, so that's good. But we do have, and then we have four men. One is the CEO of the Durham Cricket Club, one is the CEO of Yorkshire Cricket Club. That's just how it's set up at the moment. And then I have two other guys, one who has a corporate role in sports, and one who is young and understands the global market as well. So yes, we could definitely do better on our gender balance. What do you think, then when we look at cricket on a global scale, we're noting that the ICC has just launched its 100% future leaders programme, which this particular year is focusing particularly on administrative roles and encouraging women into those leadership positions. What do you feel it takes to advance to that level? And you're somebody who works outside of the game and then is able to come in at a non-exec and chair position on a board. But even for women sort of within the game, what does it take to climb that ladder? I think you have to have passion for what you want to do for a start off. If you don't have passion, it's going to show ambition, being clear what that ambition is, and being unashamed and unafraid to share it and say, this is what I want, this is what I'm going for, and being crystal clear on that, don't apologise for it. I do think the number of girls and women playing cricket more, and the explosion of that across the world helps because it moves things up from the ground up and gets more and more people involved, and more and more people questioning why are there more women at the top of sport. So I think it's a number of angles. I think more women in leadership positions in the media, talking, commentating, discussing, punting on cricket is important, and then middle management moving up, but I think also the women at the top, mentoring, guiding, and giving back to those who are on their way up as well. There's nothing worse than women getting to the top and then pulling up the ladder and going, thanks, I'm here. So giving back, it's a number of factors, and each of the environments is very unique. I don't think there's one path, and there's a lot more to do. When we looked at the boards across the 12 full member nations of the ICC, there are 154 people, members on those boards, and only 26 are female, which is just 17 percent, and of the boards at BCCI Sri Lanka, Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Pakistan, solely male boards. Is it a male/female issue? Is there a cultural element to this as well, which seems quite clear to see? I think there will always be a cultural element, different geographies, nations, environments have different paces at which they're going, and there are different flavors and histories. But I think there are ways that we could improve this, and we could learn a little bit from the corporate world on this. To me, it's not about second quotas, because that concept people are part, but you can set voluntary targets around a defined population, back in the UK stock market, back in 2011, there were only 9.6 percent of the top 100 companies. 9.6 percent of those board members were women, and an outside panel set up a challenge for those 100 companies, and said, "How can you get to 20 percent, 25 percent, wherever?" Because it was a defined population, you could say this number of roles needs to change, and because that population all knew each other, it almost became an internal competition to see who could get there faster, and then the people who weren't started to look a bit like left behind. Yeah, and now, fast forward to 2024, there are over 33 percent of board seats in the top 100 companies in the UK footsie that are populated by women, and that has been purely voluntarily. And it has been, I mean, you could say name and shame, it's not really name and shame, it's more who wants to do the right thing, but using a defined population. You know, if I look at the ICC 154 seats there, that's a defined population that together voluntarily, people could get at. Yeah, I want to talk to you a little bit more about Northern Superchargers specifically. You mentioned that the role of chair for you is part of it is helping out with choosing coaching staff and overseeing that. I'm interested, how did the signing of Andrew Flintoff come about? Yes, so we have Danny Hazel, who's been a women's coach for a number of years, and she's been amazing. Have to shout it out to Danny. She's been fantastic and very consistent. And a current coach last year, his two year contract was up, and we took a review. Should we go for a change? Should we stay the same? And we'd finished eight out of eight last year. And so we took the opportunity to say, let's refresh. And through conversations that people knew or people around the place, it became clear that Freddie Flintoff was potentially in the market to be a coach and our director of cricket for the Superchargers. But Marcus North, who is director of cricket Durham, got in touch and discussed it with him. We were very clear on our criteria we wanted for the role. He naturally fit that role. I mean, it doesn't take much to, that's not a leap of faith, is it? And Marcus discussed. He said he was up for it. And me, Marcus, Freddie had lunch. He was all in, which was, has been brilliant. And he really has been all in. What's it been like working with him and Danny? Fantastic. Invigorating, he's full of passion. In the last home match, I got into the changing room. The men's changing room. At the end of the invited, I might say. And Harry Brooker's captain was doing a speech and then Freddie turned over to me and said, would you like to say a few words? And just the buzz around the place of having him his energy and his passion and humility, he said he was privileged to be given the opportunity to coach as a first-time coach. And we also had Harry Brook as a first-time captain. So there was a real, we didn't quite make it to the eliminator, but there was a real buzz around this season. And we also had a very consistent women's team, so many people from last year. So there was a real camaraderie about the whole place. It's been fantastic. With Danny Hazel, you mentioned her, and rightly slow, because of the eight women's teams in the 100, there are, again, relatively few women coaches. Charlotte Edwards has obviously been very successful with Southern Brave. But again, you see, it's very important that female coaches are elevated. There's also Sarah Taylor, who's been coaching Manchester Originals men, we see her in the dugout for there as well, which is, and that's a whole nother challenge as well, to get women coaches into the men's space around the world. Yes. I mean, I think Danny has been amazing because she was also involved in it around the Yorkshire Diamonds. And so there's a, there's a, she's known, she's an ex-international, she is passionate and ambitious. Again, I think two really critical qualities. And I do think it's made a difference for our women's team, actually. And I do think it's really important that we have women coaches as well as men coaches, whether that is for the men's game or the women's game. However, there are talented people out there, and if they've got the talent, let's come in. Yeah, some people on the outside might say, "Oh, surely there's going to be a real challenge for women coaches to have the respect of the male players." Do you see that as a valid argument at all? You might expect me to say, "No, I don't see it as a valid argument. I see that it can exist." But I think it's all for, often, down to the personality. If that person is, no, why would you not respect somebody with that expertise, with that career, with that skill set, that passion, and that ambition? I do think it comes down to individuals, and I see that it's not always the norm that you may have equal respect, but I don't see why it shouldn't be. And the right person for the right job, not necessarily, because they're female, but they happen to be female. Exactly, totally. You know, I can imagine if you look across the football now, you look at Serena Vigman and Emma Hayes. I think it would be pretty difficult to not have them as respected coaches or the men's team as well. I mean, they've just achieved so much. So yeah, right person, right job, right passion, right ambition. And what about you yourself, then, Kirsty? Because we know that the 100 teams are going to be up for sale over autumn and winter. So I guess that creates quite a little uncertainty for the current boards that are in place. You don't know quite what will happen. I mean, would you have a branch out and look at other franchise leagues around the world. I mean, talking about sort of women in leadership roles, there's some pretty hard hitting and big hitting women involved in the Indian Premier League. Would that tell you? Yeah, I would. I would. Oh, absolutely. I would relish that opportunity. I spent the first 24 years of my corporate career at BP, the energy company. So I grew up in a global environment, and I've traveled to loads of places, including, you know, I could, well, about 60 odd countries. So I love global environments. That's where I flourish and I relish the opportunity. That when and if the investment comes into the 100, each of the team co-boards currently as they all will be disbanded and reset up. So yes, I don't know what the future holds, but I would love to continue to be involved. And yeah, an international franchise. Absolutely. Goodness me. I would jump at the opportunity. Well, it's great to hear your passion coming over. It's evident to see as well. And congratulations on what you've achieved so far. The two years at Northern Superchargers. And thank you so much for being with us on Stump. Thank you. It's a pleasure. That was Kirsty Bashforth, Chair of Northern Superchargers. Really great to get her perspective. Jim and Cher are interested in what you thought from what you heard from her there. And Jim, you'd mentioned at the top of the show that Nick Hockley is leaving as Chief Executive of Cricket Australia. I mean, are there any women in the pipeline in the Australian Cricket Network that you could see as potential candidates? What does the landscape look like at the moment? Well, Christina Matty's name would have been there. Had it been a few years ago, but I think her time has passed on. I don't know whether she's interested. She's exactly the wacker for many years. Yeah. Yeah, she was. And, you know, she ran the show extremely well over there. You only have to look at the success in her period with Western Australia to see the evidence of what she was able to achieve as the leader. So, yeah, it's a bit of a position vacant there. Although you mentioned to me before, there are three or four women who are on the board at the moment. And I've met one or two in Queensland I recall, but I can't see the potential in that role at the moment. And as long as you get the blend of all these things where merit is the main event when it comes to the selection, that's fine. But like most of cricket, this is an evolutionary process and it's happening. It's perhaps happening more in places like England and Australia than elsewhere. It's continuing to have an influence on the game, but I don't at the moment see an obvious alternative to Nick Hockley who's the female that might change. We'll see. New Zealand cricket have the only female chair at the moment. Although I believe, I think as Roger twos who is actually sent to attend ICC board meetings on her behalf, I'm not quite exactly sure why. But Cheru, evolution in India in that regard pace of change, how fast or slow is that happening? Is there a desire? Well, you know, this is slightly complicated because in terms of the politics of India and many other spheres, even business, women are way ahead. We've got women presidents, we've got women prime ministers. And even in the surrounding nations, we got in politics, women are in extremely high leadership positions, including prime ministers, as you may well know. But in the world of cricket, it's a little slow. I think the division really started because of and in virtually every sport, because we've got a women's association and a men's association. And so there's a women's association, even the women's cricket association in India was led by women for very long till it got absorbed into the BCCR. And that's where unfortunately women administrators fell off a bit. So if they are independently led, I think women are not only extremely capable, but they manage their own associations when it comes to a mixed association. I'm afraid the men haven't quite opened the doors just yet. Maybe a few windows here and the other. They're entering in other capability areas. They're there for, of course, team ownership of some of the bigger teams at the IPL level and even at the lower state level. They are perhaps making breakthroughs in terms of officiating. There are women and buyers, not in terms of team management just yet. It's a matter of time. I don't think they're being kept away deliberately, but there's a lot of traditional stuff going on in the world of cricket. And I've often said that cricket's very slow to change. Hopefully the pace will improve. Well, Muskeva mentioned to Indra Nui, who has been on the board of the ICC. But I believe she might have stepped down. I checked the list. She's no longer listed as being a board member. She, of course, was the former managing director of PepsiCo. So when you're absolutely right in India, there has been all number of women rising to the top in the corporate world. It's just translating that through to cricket. It'd be great to get Nui on Stumpf. We hope that she might be able to come on it sometimes. I'd be fascinated to get her perspective on all of this, for sure. But yes, pace of change is certainly different across the world, but it was fascinating to get Kirstie Bashford's perspective, certainly from her years in business as well. Now, finally on Stumpf to mark 150 years of test cricket, a standalone celebratory men's test match is going to be played between Australia and England in Melbourne in 2027. Now, the first ever test was played at the MCG in 1877, where Australia beat England by 45 runs. 100 years later, Australia beat England again by, wait for it, exactly 45 runs. Spooky, hey. Jim, that was the centenary test as it was known in 1977. You were actually at the MCG watching that one, weren't you? What was it like? Oh, it was fantastic. Having all those players from England, in Australia, as well as all the Australian players, there were about 400, I think, there for the celebration, as it were, and it was an extraordinary game of cricket. The Queen was due to appear on day three, and after two days, it looked like the game wouldn't get to a third day. But Derek Randall turned it around with a brilliant 100, and we got to the last session on the last day, so the Queen did get a chance to meet the players, and there were a lot of people there was played in March of that year, which is unusual for test cricket in Australia, and it was a significant event. David Hooke's hitting five fours and one over from Tony Greg Dennis with his brilliant bowling, and that extraordinary coincidental result of 45 runs. So it was a rich memory. For me, I just done a test match. My first in Sydney when Pakistan thrashed Australia by eight wickets thanks to a bloke called Imran Khan, and so I went down to watch this game, and I had the chance of meeting John Arlet, who did one session a day on the radio. One session a day, is it all? Yes, he wandered up with a suitcase of a satchel. I think there might have been a bottle in there at five o'clock, and five o'clock did his session, and they tell me the bottle was empty by the time he finished his little stint. Legendary radio commentator. Yeah, it was a real thrill to meet Vah McGulvray and the rest of the ABC team, the voice of the game, the power of the airways when it came to talking about the game of cricket. So I remember that very fondly. It was a huge occasion, and hopefully it's the same again. It's a wonderful idea. Yeah, apparently every living men's cricket who had played in an ashes match was invited to watch. So over 200, yeah, former cricketers were with their 218 out of 244 at that stage, so I wonder whether there's going to be a similar plan for this 150th celebration. Some other news is that cricket Australia have announced what grounds will host, what tests going forward, and there's quite a lot of question marks around the gabber, and I'll bring Charo in on this in a moment, of course, but yeah, the gabber is not going to be hosting the first test of the ashes in 2025, which it has done for more than four decades, and the ashes is instead going to begin in Perth, which is the way the test season, what started last year, and we'll do this season when India are touring, but what are the mechanics at play there, Jim, that's led now to the gabber being bumped off as opening test for the ashes? There are a few things that play. The first is the 2032 Olympics, which is going to be held in Brisbane, and the speculation for a while now is that the gab is going to be re-vast for various reasons. As a cricket ground as an Olympic stadium, you name it, so there's a bit of uncertainty about it, and I think there's a state election coming up next year as well, so there's a lot of movement at the station politically, and in terms of what Brisbane will do, if they do manage to do it adequately, to host the gabs, so that's an issue in itself. I think the gabber has become a bit on the nose, there's a cricket venue for international matches because it doesn't pull a good crowd, and Perth, there's been a bit of a bidding process here to remember. Adelaide's been putting up their hand, so we should get the Sydney test match. That's one thing they've done. They've given Melbourne and Sydney Boxing Day New Year for the next six or seven years. That's locked in. Adelaide, Perth, yes, but there are a few things to be sorted as we go, but Brisbane is very much becoming an outlier in this argument, principally because of the uncertainty about what will happen to the ground in the lead up to the Olympic Games. Adelaide's been locked in as the test match that will lead into Christmas always, so they've got a little bit of certainty, but I tell you what, I think England will be delighted to be starting in Perth instead of Brisbane. I heard that when Stuart Broad saw the news, he couldn't believe his eyes because Australia have the unbeaten ashes record at the gabber that goes back to 1986, even though they've lost there to India and West Indies recently, but for England and England fans, well Perth is easy to fly into. They're generally always really well supported all over Australia, but there's a big England population in Perth as well of ex-pats, and of course it can be hot there, but it's not quite the same humidity as Brisbane and the sort of deck that can take a cold England team by surprise. I suppose Australia has shortened grounds, which is why the five traditional grounds held those test matches, but as more grounds come up, more stadiums come up, I'm sure will rotate a little more and probably should rotate a little more except for maybe the number of seats at say Melbourne, which is a huge ground, so you want the holiday test match there, I suppose, but I do think that traditions got its place, but if we move along for sometimes good reasons, if the gabbers intended for some other purposes, well let's move because I don't think the rest of the world, or I don't know if I speak for the Indian cricketers, are going to a specific ground for a specific reason, they're just going to play against Australia in Australia, and if Australia says, well we're playing in, I don't know, Alice Springs, wherever, then the Indians will be happy to play just as a question of providing a decent surface and having a reasonable stadium, and of course good facilities for the players, so that really just ticks off all the necessary arrangements, and the rest of the world may not be too concerned about the traditional, what's the word you're saying? I don't know, Charo, I think the Boxing Day test at the MCG has a certain allure to it for international players, and he speaks to cricket fans who grew up sort of watching the Boxing Day test at the MCG, and they want to go and experience it, I've spoken to cricketers who are playing in their first ever test series, and the one they're earmarking is, I can't wait until Boxing Day, because of having grown up with that, I mean Jim, do you still get that said? It's probably an England-Australia thing, but I don't know. No, I'm talking South African cricketers, West Indian cricketers. Let's get this straight, Charo, at least we had tradition, if it's trying to go to India, that could be playing anywhere, anyway, you've got no question here, we haven't played it Eden Gardens and Mumbai test career for ages, we've only got seven test match grounds in this country, and I'll be very surprised if Canberra get an ashes test, but I don't think it matters where they play really, England's biggest problem is they've got to turn up, and they haven't done that for quite a while, Australia, so I'll be thinking more about if they haven't got Ben Stokes here in two years time, they're in big trouble, that's all I'll say. Yeah, one more thing Jim, tell us about this ground in Tasmania that is purported to have a roof and could stage cricket matches. It's a long way off, it's too much political wrangling going on down there, will they spend the money to create this football stadium basically, it's all about having an Aussie rules team in Tasmania, and there's some reluctance it seems, given the state of playing Tasmania, that this thing's even going to get built, so I think we'll be still playing at Boot Park for a while when it comes to playing a test match, but probably not an ashes test, although we had one a couple of years ago, so really Australia's about Adelaide, Melbourne, Sydney, Perth comes in occasionally, Brisbane, and maybe Hobart, and then maybe Canberra, that's it, we've got nowhere else to go. Can't wait for the ashes to tell you that, there's a big series going that's going to happen in Australia when India get over there in November coming up, that is a biggie this season. Now that is all we've got time for on this week's Stumps, so thank you to Jim Maxwell and Charis Sharma and to all of you, and we'll see you again next week, until then, bye for now. Stumps is a BBC Sport Production for the BBC World Service, in association with ABC and cash money. We've heard of Charlie Chaplin, right? Well, Charlie Chaplin was my grandfather, and there was a time when he was the biggest star in all the world. But something happened, not just to him, but to hundreds of artists in Hollywood. They were forced to leave, forced out. All episodes of Hollywood Exiles from the BBC World Service and CBC are available now. Search for Hollywood Exiles wherever you get your podcasts. [BLANK_AUDIO]