the microbiome is a great lever for recovering better from poor sleep. We're looking at things related to exercise and exercise recovery, things related to mood, all kinds of stuff. And the thing is, too, that that's just like the gut microbiome, right? But you have a microbiome in your mouth. You have a microbiome in your nose. There's the vaginal microbiome. There's a skin microbiome. Your pet's have microbiomes. And all of these places have really interesting modern problems that need solving. And a lot of them can be addressed with a probiotic that is engineered to perform a specific function to address that problem. Are you curious about discovering ways of making your life better? Then welcome to my podcast. I'm Bob Nickman, and this is The Exploding Human. Listen in. While I talk with all kinds of people in the fields of personal growth, health and healing, alternative therapies, psychology, spirituality, environment, and the future, I'm looking for those answers that make life better for everyone. You'll meet cutting edge practitioners, doctors, artists, filmmakers, business people, and those who have overcome challenges, the brave, curious, anyone who's out there helping us humans to explore, expand, and explode. Hey, welcome to The Exploding Human. My name is Bob Nickman. My guest today is Zach Abbott, and we're going to be talking about the world's first genetically engineered probiotic. Zach is the founder of a company called Zbiotics. And first, we're going to be talking about the microbiome, probiotics, what works, and what doesn't work. And the second part, we're going to be talking about how humanist team have genetically engineered a probiotic and some of the future ones that they are working on in order to help with specific things that general probiotics are not able to do. And the third part of the interview, we start talking about longevity and what the future might hold for people who are living up to 150 years, if that's possible. And that part's kind of a freewheeling off the topic, discussion, but we had a lot of fun doing it. This was a really fun interview. I really enjoyed talking to Zach. He and his company are doing some very innovative things. So let's get started. Here he is, this is Zach Abbott. All right, here I am with Zach Abbott. He is in Northern California. I am in Southern California, but we're in California. So we're doing a California podcast today. We're going to be talking about genetically engineered technology for wellness. And that's Zach's thing. And he knows a lot about it. And particularly, I think probiotics is one of the things. But let's talk a little bit about your leading up to, you starting your company, which we'll also talk about. How did Zach Abbott, that's you? How'd you get here today? - I said, I studied science in college, but I also studied classical history. I was kind of interested in a lot of stuff. And then after college, I was tried out various different professions and kind of trying to figure out what I liked. But I think at the end of the day, I discovered that. Like science was the thing that probably scratched the itch deepest for me in terms of finding opportunities to be creative and problem-solved and think about ways to have an impact and like that also allowed me to be curious. So I started kind of doing more and more in science. I was working at a lab studying HIV, and I was really interested in disease and the problems that that proposed and ways that we could address that. And so then I went and did my PhD in microbiology and immunology and was thinking a lot at that time about kind of disease and disease progression. And so I started studying bacteria. And initially, the kind of the perspective I have was back, as many of us do, I think, is that bacteria cause disease. And so then like, how do we learn about them? And how do we fight the disease causing bacteria? But then as I got into the subject more, I learned that the vast majority of bacteria are neutral or even beneficial. It's only a small percentage that cause disease. And that started to be really interesting and exciting for me is instead of like combating through the negatives, like how do we leverage the beneficial ones? And how do we create benefits and solve problems that way? And so that became more and more interesting to me during my PhD. And so then after my PhD, I sort of had this idea kicking out of my head for a while, which was the idea of taking a beneficial or safe or edible bacteria, probiotic bacteria, which is performing thousands of functions. And most of those functions are for the benefit of the bacteria. And so then sort of sometimes tangentially or incidentally, they might be beneficial for you too. And that's kind of like the state of the industry with probiotics. And so I thought like, well, what if we took that bacteria and then use modern biotechnology to engineer it so that in addition to the thousands of functions it was already doing, it would do one additional function that we know for sure we've beneficial to you. And I thought that was like a really cool idea and really, really kind of simple. And I looked around and I saw that there were people working on this, but not in kind of the ways that I had envisioned and I thought there were some cool opportunities there. So that kind of became this sort of bug in my brain that I really couldn't let go of and kept thinking about it. And eventually decided to start a company to kind of pursue that idea more, which is kind of the birth of z-biotics. - You know, the first thing you think of when you hear the word bacteria is that it's bad. That's the first thing you hear. We've been taught that there's viruses and bacteria that are bad things and they try to attack people and make them sick. It's an odd sort of way to look at things. I mean, maybe that is the case in some cases like you're saying, and there's a lot of mileage that's been gotten financially, certainly from pharmaceuticals and those kinds of things. It's like, well, let's come up with stuff to kill the bad stuff. It also kills the good stuff too. So it doesn't, antibiotics is the one everybody knows about. It's like you're supposed to take a probiotic when you take antibiotics because it's killing the good stuff. - I love that burst that bubble if I can for a sec. But yeah, first of all, I agree. I think I already stated at the time, right? Like I mean, before the onset of the discovery of antibiotics, it was bacteria were like the fastest way to die. Like a cut on your finger could result in death because of bacteria. And so antibiotics on the whole and that net are definitely a huge boon and benefit to humanity. But as you said, I mean, the vast majority of the bacteria that we interact with and engage with are innocuous or in a lot of cases, it's beneficial. And I think only in the last really 20 years or so, medicine and science have begun to appreciate the magnitude of that impact in large part through kind of setting the microbiome, which is the collection of microbes in the gut and on the skin in your mouth, like really everywhere. And so taking antibiotics to save your life is valuable. But then of course, it creates all these downstream consequences by killing all, or not all, but a lot of the good bacteria as well. And that causes disruptions and can interact with kind of your health in many different ways. The idea, by the way, though, that like a probiotic will help mitigate that is really like from a scientific perspective, it's not a good one. Like the hypothesis is reasonable, right? We're killing off the bacteria. So then eat some more good bacteria and replace them. But the reality is that most of the commercially able probiotics we have today are really just like leftovers of the dairy industry. So you have these like lactobacillus and bifidobacteria that naturally occur as part of like milk and dairy processing. And we know they're safe. And so because we know they're safe, we say like, oh, we'll hear, eat it, and maybe it'll be beneficial to you. But the reality is that most healthy adult microbiome, so the microbiome that's in your gut as a healthy adult, doesn't really contain a lot of lactobacillus or bifidobacteria. So while they're safe, they're also not particularly important. And so then if you imagine that you're taking this like antibiotic that's like bombing your microbial population and clearing out of the space, and then you're taking in a bacteria and high numbers that can go and fill that space. But it's not a bacteria that's normally there, then you can imagine that's not necessarily a good thing. And indeed, like data shows that it actually-- well, it's really kind of like a natural problem, most of the time it doesn't do anything. More often than not, it actually can get in the way of your natural microbiome kind of repopulating itself. And that's what you really want to happen, is all of the hundreds or thousands of species of bacteria that are already in your gut growing back. So the analogy I often use is if you were to throw some pesticide all over your grass to kill the weeds, you wouldn't then take seeds for a different plant and try and use them to get your wand to grow back. You probably do fertilizer to get your-- the grass is already there to kind of like return. And so I think that that's kind of like the stronger hypothesis for taking-- when you're taking antibiotics, how do you support your gut, give your body bacteria food, which is fiber. And fiber will help feed the microbes that are already in there to allow them to grow back, rather than picking up probiotics. So one of those bubbles I like to buzz. Well, I'm glad you did. Because I never knew what probiotic to take. There were so many options. And it's this many millions of whatever. And I was like, well, what's going to work? Maybe we seem to really know. I did a little bit of research with watching people talk about this kind of stuff on YouTube. That's not really research. It's just sort of-- but you know, some of these people are in the field. And I still couldn't get like, what am I supposed to do? I mean, there was no clear message about what's the best way to do that. And not that I take a lot of antibiotics, but they have saved me from a lot of bad stuff. Pneumonia included. Exactly. So I probably wouldn't be here if it wasn't for antibiotics. Probably most of us wouldn't be, actually. Yeah, and I think that that's honestly an honest reflection of the field, right? So nobody really knows what to tell you to take, because the treat is at first and foremost, everybody's microbiome is different. So your microbiome is totally different than mine. And the idea that there's sort of this silver bullet that's going to come in and fix, everybody's microbiome is not-- that's not really a reasonable scientific hypothesis. I think we know that. But some people want to sell you something in this case. We've become aware of the fact that the microbiome is important, and so that's like, OK, well, what do we do here? And so unfortunately, probiotics are not really a great hypothesis. I think that there are many different probiotics. And some-- I'd say the most generous way I sort of say this is that some probiotics can help some people sometimes. I think that that's a fair thing to say. It's not to say there's no data out there to ever show that it doesn't do-- that it does nothing. It does occasionally help people. And so I often recommend to people who really are passionate about probiotics to try a few different things out. And if something works for you and you like it, then that's great and go for it. But there isn't really-- you're not going to find this strain or this bacteria is really going to fix your microbiome generally. So it's really more of an individualized situation. So that being said, is there any type of testing for the microbiome where somebody can-- and I think there may be, or it's sort of on the edge of happening more so. I've been looking into it a little bit. Because one of the things that comes up on this show a lot is gut health comes up all the time for everything. It's really like there's an intelligence down there-- gut instinct. Think about that. So when you think about that, is there-- like you say, everyone's is a little different. Is there a way to get some kind of a read? Like you can get your DNA tests done and know what your DNA is, what your predispositions are. Can you do that with your microbiome? And then how is-- and does that-- I guess, obviously, that's going to change depending on lifestyle and nutrition and environment and all those things. But is there testing? Yeah. Oh, OK. Yeah, they exist sort of like ways. So the same way you get sequenced your DNA, you can take a sample and sequence all the DNA of the bacteria in your gut, or even the RNA. So like, not just what bacteria they are, but what they're doing. Those things exist. I would say that at this current state of the field, we don't know enough to really give strong recommendations about what to do with that information. So we can tell you what's going on, but we can't tell you really what you need. I think like with any confidence at this point. And part of the problem is that even though there are an infinite number of combinations of bacteria that would make up a healthy microbiome, or I'd say like because there are an infinite number of kind of combinations of bacteria that make up a healthy microbiome, there is not a way to look at one necessarily, at least not yet. And say like, that is healthy, or that is unhealthy. And in the case where we say it's unhealthy, like, here's what you need to do to fix it. Because it's such an incredibly dynamic and complex community that we can't say like, we don't have sort of syllables yet. I think there are things we can look at to say that this is definitively unhealthy. Like, we know that diversity, for instance, is really important. Having a lot of different kinds of bacteria in your gut and having those kind of evenly represented is generally considered healthy. But like, we can't say like, you know, this bacteria specifically is like lower than it should be. And you need to boost it with like more probiotics or something like that. But there's like, you know, let's like sort of like a lineup or a roster of more like this like very dynamic and complex like net or web of interactions. And like, so like you could take one out and like another one might compensate in a way that's like really beneficial. And then if you try and kind of cram something back in, it could disrupt that like interaction in some way. So long story short, it's like a really complex system. And we're just, we're appreciating how important it is, but we really don't have our head around exactly how that works in a cause effect relationship to a level yet where we can intervene in a meaningful way. - Amazing, like how the more we learn, the more complicated we see everything is. You know, when you think about these people that do brain mapping and you're like, how was that even, how did you even come up with a way to do that? But you know, they're doing it and they're able to do things that they couldn't do 10, 15 years ago. It's kind of amazing. And you know, that's to me, this is the type of thing that we're medicine is gonna really excel is when you get this kind of precision diagnostics, which is, you know, every year it gets a little bit better, I suppose, or a little bit more specific. - I think that this is like a really exciting area for human health. And I think that excitement is reflected in all the stuff you see out there right now. It's maybe jumping the gun a little bit, but like we're appreciating that there's this like, really whole other organ system of the body in the microbiome that we just didn't even pay attention to until like I say, maybe 20, 30 years ago. And so we're just not learning and it's so complex. It's as complex or more than the entire human body. And so there's a lot of work to be done. But I think that like we are gaining more and more information and more and more knowledge that's allowing us to start to untangle that at least at the edges to the point where we can start to intervene. But I think the more and more we learn, the more and more powerful those insights are going to be for human health. And I'm really excited. It's an exciting time to be a microbiologist for sure. - Yeah, it's really fascinating stuff. When you think, you know, I have a acupuncturist that I've seen a number of times and she has really transitioned most of her work toward working with the gut. And that's where the needles are going, around the abdomen and that area. And she's getting really good results. I haven't seen her for a few years, but she said, you know, the more I learn about the gut and she goes, I really apply it even to acupuncture, which I find that really fascinating that there is, and you've probably realized this. There's an intelligence that's not just the brain in the human body and the gut is. I guess that's really when you think about it, it's the center of the body. It's where everything comes out of. - Why we exist, right? Like, you know, that's the source of the nutrition that keeps us alive, right? So it makes sense, there's sort of this like, you know, people often talk about sort of the gut brain axis and there's this super highway, essentially of information connecting your gut and your brain and for good reason, right? Like the gut is really kind of like the core system of the body. Everything else is just like trying to keep it alive. But right, that's like the input system and then the energy acquisition system without that were in big trouble. And so it makes sense, there's a lot of feedback happening. That's it, and that there's a conversation happening between those two systems. And so you describe that as an intelligence. And I think it absolutely is because it has to be intelligent enough to communicate your brain. And that is a two way conversation too. Like you're, you know, and so when you describe an acupuncture, it's sort of, I do not profess to be an expert at acupuncture, but as I understand it, I mean, the point of it is to kind of stimulate nervous system and differences of the body with pressure. And so that's creating systems that are signals that you, the body are creating and that, you know, can communicate with the bacteria. And what's interesting, it sounds sort of like science fiction or pseudo science to say that like the bacteria communicating with us in some way. But in reality, it's the same system that your own cells use to communicate with each other. So you have these, you know, nerve cells in your brain and brain cells and they secrete a chemical that like then another cell like has a receptor for and they bind that receptor. And then that's like a way, the way they communicate. It's like chemical language. They're speaking to each other to take pass along signals. And what's interesting is that those chemicals, those neurotransmitters that our cells make are actually, were originally developed by bacteria and we kind of took them wholesale, the ability to make them from bacteria. So we speak the same chemical language or derivative of the chemical language that bacteria speak. And so it's not surprising that we can communicate with each other because we use the same, a lot of the same chemicals. So like people have heard about dopamine and serotonin. These are neurotransmitters that bacteria can make. In fact, they often make a majority of dopamine serotonin are made by bacteria in the gut. And that's like a feedback loop, right? We put something in our body and the bacteria like it and they like give us this dopamine hit like good boy. Eat more of that, you know? And like feed me what I want. And you know, you can really skew that either way. And your body is also communicating with the bacteria. You are stressed, you release like stress signals and the bacteria can respond to that and it can create like, for instance, if you don't sleep well, you have all these like stress hormones and create all these reactive oxygen species and it can wreak havoc on your microbiome. And so there's a lot of kind of like two way conversations that are happening between you, you as an organism and then all of that huge community of organisms that are living in you. And it's a really, so you're kind of like more like an ecosystem than you are like a single individual. - Yeah, it's pretty, it's really cool. And the simple version to me is like, in terms of the direction of, you ever get some really bad news and you just feel sick to your stomach. It doesn't take long. - Yeah, right. - Yeah, simple. If you go, of course there's a connection. - Right, exactly. A lot of the way you feel like, both ways, right? If you don't feel good, like if your stomach doesn't feel good, you're depressed. You're going to perform as well, right? Yeah, you feel depressed. There's a lot of connection between microbes and your gut and depression and psychology and vice versa, right? When you're feeling great, the opposite is also untrue. That like, you know, your gut can feel really, really get to feel centered and things like that. So. - This is really cool stuff. I love this stuff. It's very exciting to me just to think that people are working on this every day. So let's talk about your company and this genetically altered? - Oh, is that something? - And genetically engineered, probiotic engineered. - Yeah, that's the word. - Yeah, I knew that, okay. But I didn't, couldn't come up with it. Genetically engineered probiotic. What is that? - Yeah, I mean, what have you done? What have you done? What have you done? - What have you done? - What have you done? - The madness is going on in the lab there. - Yeah, I mean, you know, it might be kind of a funny to hear me say, you know, kind of zooming out here, right? Like, I have a probiotics company and I've just, you know, spent the last, you know, 10 minutes or so talking about how probiotics are not really like a good hypothesis for helping human health and stuff. But that's sort of like probiotics as they existed, right? Like, as I say, they're kind of the leftovers of the, of the dairy industry in large part. And, and they, as they produce kind of like all these different functions. And I mentioned earlier that we then can engineer them to produce an additional function. And so what we really use is like a probiotic that is engineered to, as essentially as a chassis to deliver this useful function. So the bacteria itself is sort of incidental. It's, it's our means, our way in, right? Like we eat these every day, they perform all these functions. So this is a great opportunity for us to deliver something very specific. And so what's important in terms of our products is the function we've engineered to produce. And so, and the genetic engineering itself is, is really like a guided process of natural, the way that bacteria naturally kind of gather and express different traits. They're different, different functions in the body. So when we think about like, for instance, the exchange of genetic material that happens in nature generally. Like, so one of the ways that humans have leveraged out in the past is to like plant crossbreeding, right? We take like the genetic information from one plant and we smeared on another plant. And this was, we moved the genetic information that we wanted. So this plant has say like juicier apples. And this other plant has apples that are, you know, I don't know, have like a thicker skin. So they're more resistant to bugs or whatever. And so we mix them together and then take the genetic information from one and move it to the other. And the hopes that we've moved this function of this trait of like juiciness into this other apple. And it's a messy process, right? But we know that plants do this on their own. And so, okay, hey, maybe we can kind of facilitate the cost over that we want. And that's kind of originally what we did in terms of genetic engineering. And that worked okay. But the problem was that we're taking all the genetic information and we're moving it over and then all kinds of things can happen. And we don't necessarily know what's going to happen. And then we just kind of like look for what comes out and hope that we get what we want and not really worry about all the other stuff that also happened. And so we got better at it as we understood more about how kind of different organisms exchange DNA. And so with bacteria, what's great is that they're a lot older than plants. They're three billion years old. And they've been doing this like about three times as long as plants have. And so they had these really precise systems for basically when the bacterias were around a pond, there's always like bits of DNA floating around from other bacteria that have died. And bacteria naturally will kind of survey their environment and grab a piece of DNA from the environment and bring it into their own cell. And one of the ways, and there's many things they can do with that. But one of the things that they can do is they can then compare that DNA to their own. And if it looks relatively similar, they will actually just take that DNA and swap it into their genome, where the area where it looked similar. So they do it super precisely down to like a single piece of code, a single base pair of DNA. They can swap it as something in. And so the idea behind that was that the bacteria could kind of survey their environment. And maybe another bacteria had something useful. And now they're sampling their environment for the most useful traits that are floating out there. And if it doesn't, it hurts them, then they'll die, but it's a numbers game because there's lots of bacteria out there. And if it does, then great. And now they've got this better trait. So we, in the last, you know, we, meaning like scientists in humanity, in the last like 50 years or so, have begun to elucate and understand that process, just the way that we've 100 years before, understood kind of how plant crops being worked. And so we can now direct that process more efficiently. So we can say like, okay, well, I want this back, this safe edible bacteria that we already know is safe, to express this very specific protein that performs this function that we also know is safe. And so because we understand how bacteria already not to do this, we can literally just take the piece of DNA that encodes for that function and just mix it with the bacteria. And then the bacteria will naturally take up that DNA, naturally incorporated their genome in a super precise location. And then we can sequence it to make sure that that's what happened and nothing else happened. And so that was sort of like the way as robotics that we did our genetic engineering was just sort of like leveraging the process, just like a modern understanding of how bacteria change their own DNA and just guiding that process so that we were able to get a bacteria that could perform a new function. And so in the case of our first product, it's a bacteria that's been engineered to break down acid aldehyde. And acid aldehyde is this highly toxic molecule. It's the byproduct of alcohol. So when you drink alcohol, some of the alcohol you drink is converted into the acid aldehyde and this acid aldehyde is responsible for kind of like making you feel not so great that they have to drinking in. So your cells already make an enzyme that breaks down acid aldehyde. Many of the bacteria in your gut make an enzyme that breaks down acid aldehyde. The problem is they don't make enough of it at the right time when you're drinking to break it down in time for it to not cause these problems. And so we simply just made sure that you would get it, if you ate our bacteria, you would get enough of this enzyme at the right time to ensure that you could break down that acid aldehyde as a form. So it was really just combining two things that your body already has seen that are very safe and really kind of like delivering a novel solution to an existing problem. And so that was kind of the fundamental idea behind the bias and behind our first product. - Oh, genetically engineered hangover remedies? Is that what we're talking about? - I mean, hangover is a very like comp, you know, it's a really interesting science, but there's a lot going on and kind of like the whole cornucopia of things you're doing with the next day. Some of what you feel the next day is due to acid aldehyde. Some of it's due to other things, like the effects of the ethanol or the alcohol itself. And so we can help with the acid aldehyde part of that. And so yeah, so we can help you feel better the next day. And that's the idea, right? That like, look, humans started intentionally drinking alcohol about 6,000 years ago. We did not evolve systems to deal with that. And so we have all systems to deal with like, incidental small amounts of the alcohol if you ate like a kind of like overwrite piece of fruit. And so that was kind of where the system was set up for. And so sort of like a modern problem consuming alcohol is not something that biologically we're set up to do, but nature has a lot of solutions to this problem that they figured out. And so we can really kind of direct a solution. We can take modern biotechnology to solve a modern human problem. And that fundamentally, I think is a good encapsulation of what Zbonics intends to do, which is just solve modern human problems with modern technology. - So there's other products too that you are targeting different things. What are some of those? - Yeah, we are really excited about the category. And I'll say this to begin with it. When I started this company with the idea of genetically engineering probiotics, my goal was not to just make everybody feel better that they have been drinking. That just so happened after I had kind of a long list of things that I wanted to do. When I started pitching that list, that was the one that people immediately got excited about and understood. And so it made sense as a place to start. It was a great kind of like proof of concept for the technology. Something where people could like feel that benefit. They understood the problem. There wasn't anything credible out there that really dealt with it. So it made sense as a good starting place. I love, I have a lot of fun with that and engaging with kind of people on this, but the vision is much bigger. The idea that like we can solve all kinds of problems. And so we're looking at, so we're launching our second products and like very soon, like in maybe the next couple of months. And so really excited about that product. Like I can't talk about it specifically just yet. We're still keeping the powder dry, but it's not at all related to alcohol. It's related to kind of gut health and basically like nutrition and a totally different mechanism and totally different action that that product's doing. We're looking at things related. I talked earlier about kind of the effects that sleep has on your gut and the way you function next day. And so the microbiome is a great lever for recovering better from poor sleep. We're looking at things related to exercise and exercise recovery, things related to mood, all kinds of things. And the thing is too, that that's just like the gut microbiome, right? But you have a microbiome in your mouth. You have a microbiome in your nose. There's the vaginal microbiome. There's a skin microbiome. Your pet's have microbiomes. And all of these places have really interesting modern problems that need solving. And a lot of them could be addressed with a probiotic that is engineered to perform a specific function to address that problem. So that, I think that when I look at our pipeline, there's just like, we're not limited by any one thing. We could do so many different things. And I think that's what's so exciting about this technology and this category that we're building. - What's the delivery system? Are you just swallowing a pill that has something in it? - Yeah, yeah. So the bacteria, basically like the bacteria we use is really cool bacteria called Bacillus subtilis. And it forms like a dormant spore that makes it very resilient to stress like heat and pH and things like that. So we can basically turn that into a powder that's shelf stable, those bacteria, those bacterial spores basically will be stable in a powder forever and definitely. And so that gives us a lot of flexibility. And so we can then turn that into form factors that make sense for whatever application we're going for. And so with the first product, you ingest before drinking alcohol. So we made that into like a small liquid beverage that you drink. So we just take that powder and put it into water with some flavoring and then you drink that before you drink alcohol. With our second product, it's gonna be a different form factor. It's gonna be like a powder drink mix and then there's, but we can put it into a pill, we could put it into like a food product like a snack bar or something like that. And so there's a lot of flexibility we have there 'cause bacteria are great at this. They're everywhere already. And so we can just leverage that to make things that people are excited about. - What a great idea. - Yeah, I mean, we're having a ton of fun with it. And it is, I'll say when we launched our first products, we launched that in August of 2019, it was the world's first ever genetically engineered probiotic of any kind to go to market. And so we really see this is like the beginning of a category. I think that this is the next, this is kind of like probiotics 2.0. I think this is the next iteration on really like the, people walk into a grocery store and they buy a probiotic because they want something to happen. They wanna fix some sort of problem. And right now we kind of give you them and we say like, they're just kind of, hey, we found these on the ground in nature and eat them. And I hope that something good happens for you. And they sort of like have these vague things like, oh, like men's health and prenatal probiotic and all these different things that are pretty vague. And the truth is, if you go look at the label, they're all the same bacteria, just with a different label on them. And so this is the opportunity to kind of take those bacteria and then like refine them down, hone them into a specific tool. So like instead of taking a piece of iron ore out of the ground and just handing that hunk to you, we then refine that or smith that down into a hammer. And we say, this is a really good tool for hammering nails. And so I think that that's the future of this category and I'm really excited about that. And I will say, well, we're the first, we're not the only. There are other companies working on engineering probiotics for all kinds of other interesting indications as well. And so I'm just really excited about like, I think the impacts on a modern human and their health are gonna be very vast due to this. - What about some of the other categories that aren't physical categories that are mood and emotion and those types of things. There's a lot of people struggle with their moods, they struggle with depression, bad attitudes, maybe they have an anger problem. Some of that, I mean, because the second thing that comes up a lot in this podcast is trauma. So some of that can be attributed to that. But I think there may be some biological reasons for people's moods, which, well, we know that there is. So is that something that you're looking at too? - The question of are we looking at it, it's like, yes. I think that when you start to look at things like anger or mood, the fact is that they are very multifaceted. And so, and what may, for instance, cause like depression one person may not be the same mechanism that has that outcome in another person. So for somebody that might be microbiome driven and for somebody else it might have nothing to do with their microbiome. And so there are, as with anything, like sort of sub-populations and different causes and effects. And so it gets the more complex the problem or the challenge, the more difficult it is to come up with like a single silver bullet answer. And so with something like drinking alcohol, it's like a very, like, we know the mechanism of action. You've ingested socially when a mouse is like a poison or a toxin, right? And so, and we know that that ethanol gets converted into acetaldehyde and uniformly, no matter who you are, acetaldehyde is not good for you. And so therefore, breaking that down is a very simple and clear and direct out of mechanism of action. And then when you get at some of these other problems, they can be more complex. And I'll have to say that there's no room for us to build something that could help, even maybe some people, right? And that's exactly how we're thinking about it. It's like, what are the underlying mechanisms here that are uniform? And then, are there ways that we can address those as a way to at least incrementally help in these situations? That's the other thing is that, it's a lot of like all or nothing attitudes out there. And I think one of the opportunities we have here with this is just I see the idea of saying like, look, this is a tool in the toolbox along with a lot of other things that you can do to improve your health, your situation in some way. And so, incremental improvements is something that we also kind of focus on. - All right, here's something that I am a little, always been confused about. The difference between bacteria and virus, and is there any viral type of thing that's going on with what you're doing too? Is that, can that be something that's part of the? - Totally. - Communication system. - Totally, totally. So, bacteria are sort of like self, they're cells on their own, they're self functioning and self replicating on their own viruses. I mean, among other things that make them different, viruses are like necessary parasites. They necessarily need a host cell in order to replicate. And so, biologically, they're quite different. Bacture are much bigger, much more complex. Viruses are smaller and simpler and really have like, driven by mostly just kind of reproduction. And so, that being said, viruses are incredibly important part of our biology as well. So, when we talk about the microbiome, it's usually kind of like meant to equate with like the bacteria in our gut. But the fact is that we actually have a lot of viruses in our gut and in our body as well. In fact, estimates say like maybe even 10 times more. So, most of, most recent estimates say, we actually have about as many bacterial cells as we do human cells in our body, which is kind of interesting though on its own right, that you're at least as much bacteria as you are human. But then, they say that like you have like maybe 10 times as many viruses as you do bacterial or human cells, which is pretty amazing. And they have like a really important job to do. They, not all of them are pathogenic either to humans, right? And so, if they can infect different bacteria and tamp down maybe like pathogenic bacteria and people and all kinds of stuff. And there are companies that are working on leveraging these viruses that attack bad bacteria or otherwise modulate our immune system or interact with us in some way. And so, these are definitely other kind of opportunities or leverpoints or chassis for functions that are valuable in the body, similar to what we're working on. Our company is very, like my expertise is in bacteria specifically, so our company's very much focused on that. But that isn't to say that others aren't working in sort of a viral space. And I think that it's equally very exciting. And in some ways, viruses are cool because unlike a bacteria, a virus, well, I shouldn't say unlike a bacteria, but like one of these viruses, they're good at getting into human cells. And they can do that without necessarily damaging or killing that cell or maybe with damaging or killing that cell. So we can leverage that as an opportunity as well. They can deliver a payload to a cell, whereas a bacteria is less able to do that in a way that's not totally destructive. - Like I was saying earlier is this attitude that bacteria attack you, viruses attack you. And then I was reading a little bit about the terrain theory. You know what that is? - Oh, I heard about this. - I don't either. No, it was explained to me, but it's that if you have a, if you, the simple version is if the terrain that these things are living and is healthy, they're not gonna hurt you. Basically not, it's not, you're not necessarily being attacked by these bad things. - Oh yeah, I see. - Are you creating an environment for them to thrive? - Right. - That aren't good for you. And if you, you know, the theory is that if you maintain, and it makes a lot of sense too, that if you maintain a healthy everything, you know, your microbiome and everything that you do with, you know, nutrition, exercise and, you know, meditation, with all the things that people kind of know too. Well, not that many people actually do know that, but they do on this podcast. - Right, right. Your audience, yeah. - That when you do these things that are sort of integrative and holistic, that you're gonna have a stronger system. And so your terrain is stronger as you're not gonna be, you know, susceptible to things. - Yeah. I think that there's like, I think of this in the context or in, is that like context is really important, right? That there's, there's an argument to be made. And I think we even have a blog piece written on our website around like there's a, there's really such thing as a good bacteria or bad bacteria. It's really like, given a certain context of bacteria might not be good for you, right? Like a, you have lots of staff, all the staff, you know, so your staff or yes is a bacteria, right? And your like staff infections are, can be really dangerous or deadly even. You have staff, that's that bacteria, staff or yes bacteria all over your skin all the time. And generally it's actually a pretty beneficial bacteria can help increase wound healing. It's a necessary part of like a stable, healthy skin microbiome. But of course, you give it the wrong context, right? Like you get a cut on your finger and that staff gets into your bloodstream, then it's now in a context that it, it doesn't want to be in either. And it sort of starts defending itself and then it can create like this runaway infection that can be really dangerous or deadly. And so I think that you could, you could apply that mentality or that thought process to kind of everything, right? That everything has its place. And as long as you keep everything well maintained and everything stays in its place, you have this nice balance between your cells, your immune system, your microbial cells and sort of like, and the way they interact with your immune system, that balance is optimal for health. You get out of balance for one reason or another. You know, like I say, poor sleep is a good example of this. You can create huge skews in the microbiome and then this like very delicate push and pull between your immune system and the bacteria in your gut that when stable is really beneficial and educates in strengthening the immune system, you skew the bacteria out of luck, you get this hard push from the immune system, maybe this hard push back from the bacteria to the left. And then you create this dysbiotic and situation that can create sickness or elements or chronic inflammation. And so I think that the fundamental principles you're talking about there are very much consistent with how I was educated in terms of immunology and microbiology and the balance of different cells in your body. - I was wondering if there's something in what you're doing that would increase immunity overall, not maybe not to a specific thing, but just the entire building a stronger immune system. - Right, right, yeah. There are levers in the microbiome for this activity, right? Like your microbiome, the bacteria and viruses and other things that are in your gut are constantly interacting with your immune system. They help educate your immune system when you're young. They help keep your immune system in balance as you age. And so that interaction is an opportunity. It's a point of access for a benefit or an impact. And so, as I said earlier about complexity, when we move up the scale of complexity, that's definitely a more complex interaction and a more diverse one. But there's definitely opportunities there. And there are potentially underlying factors that we can leverage to improve immunity. So it's the kind of things that we're looking into and that I know others in the space are also looking into, I think it's really exciting. And we've been leveraging bacteria, by the way, their ability to modulate immune systems for a long time. I mean, in the form of vaccines and inoculation. And so, we already know that these relationships are really important. And we've already been able to leverage them in the most rudimentary ways. And so, as we sort of like move up in our understanding and knowledge, we can get better and better at this. And I think that a live probiotic that's engineered is a really new and exciting tool to do even better here. - And people are certainly talking a lot about longevity. And we've seen it, obviously, people are living longer. Hopefully, they're living healthy longer, not just being sustained on multiple medications and not doing well. And it's almost like we're trying to go for immortality, in a sense. I mean, that's sort of the, no one says that. I want to live forever, but they do want to live forever. - They at least want the option, right? - Yeah, I like the option, yeah. And I'm thinking, now, the only, the upside to that would be if we, let's say people are living longer, but they're also evolving in ways that are, and I'm gonna get into something here that's not your field, but I just want to talk about this for a second. What would be the upside to living longer would be that human beings could work on themselves in these other areas that we're so bad at and become a kinder, more tolerant species where we're not so killing each other and petty and just all these terrible things that human beings do to each other. It doesn't seem that we've evolved that way at all. So when I think about longevity, that's the thing I'm the most interested in, is can that be, by living longer and becoming, hopefully becoming wiser through experience? Can that happen? You're not supposed to answer that necessarily. - Well, I have an opinion on it, even though we are definitely, as you say, out of my field of expertise now, so this is just me riffing here. - Yeah, let's riff, okay. I didn't know if you were gonna go there. - Oh, no, I love this stuff. - Yeah, my take on this is that I mean, that quest or that believer is based on a fundamental assumption that we can continue to be open-minded and improve with time. Unfortunately, what we see biologically is that people's neuroplasticity begins to harden as they get older. And so even if you're living longer, you're not necessarily always, you have to work really hard to maintain and open mind and be open to new ideas. It's like the trope or the cliche about old people being resistant to new technologies and things like that, right? And so in a scenario like you're describing where if we were able to say, extend our lives to 150 with the hope, that's 60 more years, 70 more years, that we could be working on humanity and not just be curmudgeonial people for 70 years, right? Like to really be like dedicated to improving humanity. And then that necessitates that we can have a plastic and open-minded brain for that period of time. And I think that that would be amazing, right? 'Cause not only would you be working on humanity as a kinder or accepting people, you could also be working on that sort of like a positive feedback. That's 70 more years where you need to leverage all that experience that you gain to solve problems of humanity. And so my perspective here is that I don't think, I think humans are kind of hardwired to be jerks, you know? Like it was a successful strategy, right? Back when we evolved, right? To be able to band together into groups of like 100 and kill off everything else that threatened us and that's sort of like hardwired into us. So I think it were to kind of like an evolution and what a human is in order for us to think as a society be kinder. So I don't know, maybe call me the pessimist there. I don't know if we'll get there. - I'm on your team with that one. To me, the whole thing is a big failed experiment, but I'm still gonna try to be as positive as I can for my brief time here and my circle of people. But I sort of think there's a biological limitation to people and we can only go so far. - At least that's what history is shown. - A hundred percent. - So if there's somebody else has a different take, that'd be great, send me an email. - Yeah, I mean, look, I hope, you know, I think you're, I agree with you completely that like, I can't control what humanity does. I can only control what I do. And so, you know, I try to, you know, be aware of the things I do. And if I believe that I could be, and I have a nice impact on humanity, then I wanna do that. But, you know, that's as far as I can go. I can't, you know, I can make humanity better than any of us can. - Yeah, well, you know, what's an interesting thing is the people that come on this show, they are doing things that are very positive and helpful. Despite the fact that, you know, there is this underlying kind of disappointment in the species. - Yeah, right. - But we're doing it anyway, you know, it's like, well, I certainly don't wanna make things worse. And I don't wanna feed into the negativity. But there is sometimes a feeling of like, well, what's the point? Because, you know, it's, I mean, the point is, to me, is like, how can I do my brief time here the best that I can and help as many people as I can? - That's how I feel. I mean, it's empathy at the end of the day. It's like, how do I empathize with my fellow human and how do I make a positive impact on individuals' lives? Right? I've given up, I don't mean this in a sort of, it's 'cause I'm more dramatic than I mean. I haven't given up on humanity as a whole. I mean, what I mean to say is like, I think that like, there are things that like, as a biologist, I just believe based on the information I have that like, there are things that are programmed into us at a population level that are relatively not changeable. And so, where things are more dynamic than smaller communities, and that's kind of where we're evolved to have an impact is in groups of like 100 to 150 people. And so, that's, I think from my perspective, where I can have the greatest impact is on the smaller community that I interact with. - Yeah, I'm always amazed at some of the petty, threatened thoughts that I have during any given day, even though I know better, you know, a bit. The other day, this is just so simple. I was going to, of all places, a yoga class, right? So, I'm crossing the street, and there's these two guys walking down the sidewalk, so I had to stop before I got up the curb and go on the sidewalk where they were. And I had this feeling, it was like absolutely, I was put out by them, like, how dare them get in my way. I hate these guys, I hate them. I don't know them. - Yeah, these total assholes are totally oblivious to the fact that they're taking up the whole sidewalk. - They were having a conversation, so I was, I didn't even exist to them, they didn't even know I was there. - Right. - And I'm telling you, I had this visceral, primitive hatred of these two guys. - Totally. - And I'm going like, what the hell are you doing, Bob? - Yeah. (laughs) - And I go into the place, and I tell the woman behind the camera, I said, I am so limited as a human being of what I am able to do, you know, emotionally and mentally. And I told her the story, and she says to me, "Boy, can you come around more often?" I really like this, you know, (laughs) that you are so honest about it, it tells her she was, that's what she liked about it. But I was thinking like, wow, if I'm somebody who's thoughtful, and I'm doing my way to a yoga class. - Right, right, yeah. - I do this all day, you know, long, like trying to do, you know, lead a spiritual life of some type and a healthy life, and I'm having this reaction. No wonder there's just war everywhere, you know? - Totally, yeah, 'cause you're trying, right? And that stuff comes up, and I think, and that is, for me, evidence of my point of the idea that like, this is what we're hardwired as humans to be. You know, I empathize deeply with that story, and as somebody who also thinks themselves as open minded, and really like, really tries hard to be empathetic to other people, like, I'm driving in my car, somebody cuts me off, or doesn't like, indicate before they turn left, but you know, I'm just like, I get so mad, right? And I'm like, who is this idiot? And it's like, you know, who knows, man, that person can be having a tough day, you know? But like, those are like second and third thoughts. The first thought is like, you know, these people are assholes, you know? And so I, it takes a lot to work through that. And I think that, you know, we all get worn down, but everybody feels, I don't know if everybody, but I think by most people feel like they are enlightened about like how they treat other people. And yet with that, we still have all these kind of like problems, and I think that like, it's just a constant, the waves are constantly breaking against, you know, the cliff and just slowly eroding in a way until you make bad decisions. - Yeah, you know, between our sort of innate biology and our genetics, there's not a whole lot of free will or room to go beyond a certain point. Those of us that are trying to do that and are aware of it, you know, bravo to us, I guess. But, you know, I don't feel like I'm, I feel like I'm infinitesilally more evolved than, you know, somebody, you know, some redneck who's, you know, shooting at people out of this pickup truck. - Right, right, yeah, no, I mean, look, it's like, even if you, it's just play a numbers game on this, right? If we want to just really feel bad about humanity. Like, you make a thousand good decisions for every one bad one you make, right? But then multiply that one bad one by, you know, the 8 billion people on the planet, right? And that's 8 billion bad decisions that like, and it just takes one kind of, you know, one negative thing to kind of set up a whole chain reaction of sort of negative consequences. And so even if you're almost always making the decision that's empathetic and in favor of your fellow human, it just takes a little bit of negativity to kind of like, really, and so the best you could do is try and skew that ratio as high as possible. And I think that like, we can get better, but we can't be, we can't get perfection. And there's always going to be people who also who, you know, you take a hundred people in a room and you have one person who's being a jerk and pushing people around, like that's going to ruin the whole vibe of the room, right? So you, you know, like 99 people were good, you know, so that's the other challenge. - A little fun divergence this was. - Yeah, right, yeah. - We can talk about your company a little bit more and information that if people want that and how to, I don't know if they can get ahold of you or just, you know, hit the website. Well, so why don't you plug your deal here? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Zbotix is the company. And so we talk a little bit about kind of the products, you know, bacteria that, you know, bacterial beverage you drink before you drink alcohol. And the goal of that is so that like we talked about earlier, you know, it's not a get-out gel free card. It's sort of like a tool in the toolbox along with other, it's for people who decide to drink responsibly, right? But notice as they get older that even that means that, you know, the next day is a little tougher or they miss that money workout or they're not fully present at their kid's soccer game or whatever that might be. And so they did that along with other responsible kind of drinking behaviors you have this product. And so, and that's kind of like the first many of many products, you know, that kind of give people more tools and tools out to live healthier, fuller, happier lives. So we talk a lot about the microbiome and, you know, and alcohol and sort of like responsible drink behaviors and like how, and then like, you know, how your diet affects like your gut and lots of information on that. It's not the website, Zbotix.com. A lot of information on that. It's not just sort of like trying to sell you our products. A lot of kind of interesting things about the microbiome in general and how the gut interacts with all these different parts of our lives. And so, totally encourage people to go check that out, learn more there. And the interest in the products, it's there too, of course. And, you know, and we're always there to answer lots of scientific questions people have too, if people ever do so, always, you know, hit us up. There's lots of different sort of email addresses, info at, support out, whatever. And we all go to our CS team and we all handle these together. And so, always happy to engage with people who have questions as well. - That's great, 'cause I know a lot of the folks that listen to this are interested in finding out more about things, particularly with scientific, you know. - Yeah, genetic engineering is a very complicated and controversial topic. And I think that there is like a really important conversation that needs to be had there. So, for instance, I'll just put a little plugin for that, by the way, that every bottle in boxes, e-biotics, says proudly GMO. We believe that the technology can be used for good to help people and we recognize that it hasn't always and recognize why there's a lot of skepticism and fear around that. Unfortunately, conversation has sort of conflated bad use of the technology with the technology itself. And so, this is another area that is really actually the mission of the company is to elevate this conversation above good or bad or is it or isn't it into something more reasonable, rational and nuanced. And so, if people have questions around genetic engineering, we try to provide honest information around that and how we use the technology and why there are differences and why there are opportunities here for responsible use of tech. So, also encourage people who are maybe skeptical or concerned about genetic engineering to come check out our website and chat with us as well. - Yeah, well, it's nice to talk to somebody that's approaching it from a highly responsible place. So, I appreciate that. And I'm sure my listeners are gonna appreciate that too. So, Zach, thanks for being on the show. That was a really wild ride there toward the end, right? I loved it. - I had a lot of fun with that one, for sure. - Yeah, I never know what I'm gonna get and that was just awesome. So, thank you for being on the show and good luck with the company zbiotics.com folks. Go check it out and Zach will respond to you or someone on the team over there will if you have questions and have a fantastic evening. - Thanks so much. - What's appreciation for you folks listening to the Exploding Human? Website is the ExplodingHuman.com. There is a YouTube channel where you can listen. That is the ExplodingHuman with Bob Nickman. Once again, I wanna thank Zach Abbott for being on the show. You can check out his company at zbiotics.com. Have a fantastic day.
