On this episode of the Zak Kuhn Show, legendary blues guitarist Joe Bonamassa talks gear, how to market your own shows and why he sold his Dumble amps + why you need to learn a 31 band EQ. We cover it all!
The Zak Kuhn Show
Joe Bonamassa
Sludging along for over a decade. What did you win it? It was a daddy bill. I have a locked-aid relationship with Rolling Stone Man. They're too busy covering Sabrina Carpenter. Just sold your dumber lamps. But a lot of money didn't work. Yeah, I mean, when does that bother you? Is there some piece of vintage gear that might not be so expensive? There he is. How are you, Joe? Doing great, man. How you doing? Fantastic. Where are we playing tonight? Charles in South Carolina. How's soundcheck? Everything good over there? Everything's doing great. Just this plan for-- we're literally almost at the halfway point, and, you know, I mean, at this point, maybe all got our gig chops. So soundcheck is, you know, it just makes sure everything works, you know, savings for at eight o'clock. Unbelievable. Well, Joe, I appreciate you taking the time to do this. Not a problem, man. Not a problem. So I wanted to ask you, Joe, because I remember watching the original Albert Hall performance when I was a kid, probably 10, 11 years old. And it was crazy because-- Because how old are you? No, no, no, Joe. You still got it. But it was crazy because I was on my friend's couch watching it. And not only did it turn me on to you, but it also turned me on to Eric Clapton. Because it made me go, yes, because it made me go, this guy is so important to this guy who seems to be at the top of his game that I need to go and look at Eric Clapton. So it was hugely influential. I can never repay him the debt of gratitude I have, because he gave me his stamp of approval. And I always say that's always going to be my best DVD. It doesn't matter how many piece orchestra we put at the Hollywood Bowl. It's literally-- it was like a fairy tale moment that wasn't scripted. You literally just thought, the look on my face going, I cannot believe I called this off. And it was legit, you know? The thing to me that blows my mind, though, about that is how relatively long it took for your career to really take off. Because you were early too in that mood in that-- Yeah, when you were shooting that. And I think you were sludging along for almost over a decade. How did you not quit and go, what am I doing with my life? What did you win at? Well, here's the thing. It was a steady build. It was never an explosion. And you have to remember that the alcohol DBT was done for our purposes just to document the moment. And it was already released when PBS picked it up. So when PBS picked it up, it started doing those hour pledge drives. That's when it went boom. And that's when the work really began. And I always sell people. It's like, you can never put a sell by date on your career. Because if I said to myself, I'm going to do this until I'm 30 and then re-evaluate things. So I was four days shy of my 32nd birthday at the alcohol. It's 31 going, you know? And it was made for 2009 on May 8th. If I had just put a shelf life on it and say, well, I'm going to go play for somebody else or go to different I, it never would have happened. And you know, my records got better. So you're seeing the apparatus of touring behind. And there's four of these dance artists. Like it's a horribly expensive hobby. But you know, I was making better records. Because in 2005, I met a guy named Kevin Schurz. And he started producing my records. And he still produced my records for this day. And every single one of them in the last 20 years. And it's been really instrumental in the quality of the records went up. I became a better singer. I became more of an artist. Now it was the right thing at the right time. And it was a little bit of luck, a lot of perseverance. And the world was ready for the guy in the suit. And I transitioned between like this long haired, kind of putchy kid. It's the guy in the suit. And it was all done because you have to put an image with a sound. And I kind of stole the whole image from, you know, looking at muddy waters and BB King and, you know, Timo Walker in this '50s, '60s. And they were all in suits. And then Eric Clapton was wearing suits in the '80s and '90s. And I was like, well, maybe I can do that too. And I at least saw my audience the respect enough to dress better than they are at my shows. And I've always looked at it like that. And I lost a bunch of weight. And I lost 50 pounds and became that character. And it is a character. I play that character on stage. I'm not like that. I say things on stage. I would never say to anyone in a conversation because it's the character. It's what people expect from that. And I'm not, you know, but then I put him away at 10, 10. And I put this hat and this red-rock sweatshirt that I got 30% off last week. And that's it. But when you met Kevin Shirley, he basically said to you, OK, you're a great player, but the song sucked and the band's got to go. That didn't piss you off. Or did you agree with him? Or did you think he was right and you knew he was right? Kevin's big leave. And I sometimes have to accept things that you don't want to hear. And he was right. And I, you know, I was doing pretty good. I had a tour bus and I thought I was, you know, doing better and, you know, some of my peers in the genre and we were building. But he goes, this isn't going to scale unless it becomes bigger, wider, with better songs than a better band, you know? And he was right. You know, nothing in his business pisses me off, except ignorance and people assuming things that don't happen because of what they read online. But you have to be able to accept criticism. You can't just accept praise. And you've got to be able to accept that and learn from that and grow. If you don't, then you're going to stagnate and there's your career. You've just framed your career. Now you look at it and you've built such an incredible company that you run and control. But early on, when you were signed to label deals and you got out label deals and promoters wouldn't take you on to book shows, you had to book your own shows. And did you feel frustrated that you felt like I'm trying to do this blues rock thing? And maybe there isn't a place for it? Or maybe I don't fit in in the music business and hindsight. I guess you're into your advantage. But that wasn't super frustrating. Well, for every locked door, there's an opportunity to walk around and enter in through the side. And all I need is you work ethic and some ingenuity. Now, people look at our company now, like it was some sort of like evil genius. No, it was my manager Roy and I going that, nope, he's going to focus in the kind of rooms we want to play. Nobody's going to pay us the kind of money we need to make in order to build the show. And nobody's going to put the marketing dollars into this because it's not the new fresh hip thing. But then I would open up for BB King and I would look and see if Pat Bader like we're about to play to now. And I go, well, there's 2,000 people at Charleston, South Carolina, they're like, the police. Where are they? Because at the time they run out of my show. And then you would see Clapton come through to any play the arena and he's playing hoochie coochie man and Layla. And then you're like, OK, well, there's 10,000 people like this kind of stuff. Where are they? They're not in my show. Let's go find. And that was the beginning of a marketing campaign. And my manager, Roy Wiseman, doesn't get enough credit because I'm the traveling salesman. He is the brains behind the scenes in the marketing department, the merchandise, the marketing shows, buying ads, targeted ads. So you're not just throwing your money away. All of that, we have pretty much perfected through 20 years of four walks. And so now, the thought of doing shows that are not our own, it's almost like a foreign concept. What do you mean we're not throwing? But this year, we've gotten into doing more festivals, which for the first time in 35 years, now they're calling us. And I always say to the, we're always grateful for the gig and the phone call, but there's no first time discounts. You could have got the discount 20 years ago. But now, you got to pay us because we've earned that, right? And I got 30 right now. I got 33 people. Three trucks, four buses, a lot of moving parts. And all of them get paid to support what I'm doing. Isn't it such a gift to have someone like Roy who's been by her back for 30 plus years that knows the in and out of your business, has built your business. Like no management relationships last that long with artists. Well, Roy started when it was nothing and believed in it. It only takes one guy to believe him. And the most important person to believe in it, it's got to be yourself. If you don't believe in yourself, then how do you expect a guy like Roy wise to believe in you? So it was a united front. And Roy and I joke all the time, we're crazy. But we're the same kind of crazy. And we go out and we do these things. And we do, you know, how many people do you know, promote their own shows at Red Rocks? This guy, you know? And we promote worldwide, you know? It does not take a rocket scientist to rent the Mercedes Benz Arena in Berlin, okay? It does take a rocket scientist to market it and promote it properly to put the ad dollars in. And sometimes even on shows that we have a quick sellout, we still put the ad dollars into the market just to let people know we're coming. So it doesn't seem like we've disappeared. You know, it's the tree, the woods, then doesn't make a sound. And now, you know, you want to, you want to gotta shake the tree. You gotta, you gotta, you gotta do that. Do you feel like that's your biggest accomplishment in a way is building your career and company the way you've built it to have ownership over every element of it? I mean, Andy DeFranco has been virtually, I think vertically integrated for a long time. I think our greatest accomplishment is the fact that during the pandemic, our foundation or keeping the Blues and Life Foundation raised over $1.3 million for bands that were struggling and couldn't pay their bills and we gave away somewhere 500 or 600, $1,500 packages to artists that need, that need, needed money. That's the greatest thing that apart. This is just whatever. And why would that rolling stone or no one wrote about that? Why did no one write about that? Why would they? But what do you mean? Why would that? Why would that? Isn't that a great story? It's a great story. Here's the thing, and I know some people that I have a locked eight relationship with Rolling Stone Megged. And I know some of the writers over there and a couple of my friends and stuff like that. I said, give me fame. Let me run the gambit. So when I retire, I can say that Rolling Stone never put my name in your fucking magazine. At least give me the respect enough to run the gambit of my career where I can actually say, my name has never appeared in the magazine. And don't acknowledge. Don't acknowledge anything that we do for charity. Don't acknowledge. I don't do charity to be, to be thanked. I do charity and philanthropy behind the scenes more than anybody even knows because that's what I do. And that's what I'd like to, I'd rather give than receive. But when they would have written something to help us raise money because we were giving away money to bluegrass bands, metal bands, hip-hop, it doesn't matter. If you had gigs canceled, you got a check. And it would have helped us raise money, but at the end of the day, they're not the only ones with a fully pulpit and a soapbox, so do I. I mean, an Instagram post and a Facebook post, hey, this is what we're doing. I'd be better than any Rolling Stone article, you know. They're too busy covering Sabrina Carpenter, you know, changes for students. It's like a 500 word article on it. And that's fine. And that's what they, that's what they become. They become less influential to real music people. Because it used to be like you made it in Rolling Stone. And it's a wow, it's fantastic. I mean, like you're getting validation from the quote unquote expert. Now, yeah. Wait, you've never been in Rolling Stone one time. You have to have been mentioned at some point in Rolling Stone. Look it up. I've never been mentioned in the magazine ever. That would drive me crazy. Listen, let's stack. I wake up every morning, the luckiest guy in the world. I'm a kid from Upstate New York. We grew up lower middle class. We play guitar from the age of four. I drive around the country, I travel the world, I play music to big venues and packed houses. What do I have to complain about? And for some reason, Rolling Stone doesn't rate me. If you think that that's gonna make me cry myself to sleep tonight, I got a bridge to self. You know, why would I care? Why do I care? I never would have helped. It didn't help. They've never reviewed an album. They don't care. They don't rate. And that's totally fine. It's totally fine, bud. - I want to ask you, I was watching the performance of You at the Hollywood Bowl with the 40-piece orchestra, amazing performance. What were those clear amps you had behind you? - No, hurt myself. Those were a good idea that didn't sound very good. And my rig was off stage for the orchestra. So the whole rig was pushed off stage. To have something on there that resembled a guitar amp about five years ago, I built Fender and I built these acrylic-wheat twins, the only two in the world. They weigh about 200 pounds and they don't sound very good. But if you think of LED in the back, they light up in weird colors, they're very cool. I've never used them on stage. And I said, here's the opportune, Hollywood Bowl. Let's get the acrylic twins out. And they were just for show. - Yeah, so there was no sound coming out of them. - No, the orchestra don't like guitars, especially loud. They looked great. I heard you say an interview from 2016 that at one point in this interview, you had said that you had just sold your dumble amps and that they weren't working for you. And now you're obviously playing dumble amps. Why did you, you've got a lot of them. Why did you sell them in 2016? Why did they not work for you then? And what brought you back to them where now you're playing them all the time? - I got out of the hole. I got into like just straight into the tweets for a long time after the Three Kings. And I got tired of trying to go around and around, and using too complicated of a rig to not achieve the same, to achieve the same resolution plug and straight. 2020 rolls around. And I repurchased a couple at that point. And 2020 rolls around and I built this three-piece rig for when we were gonna go about and do those shows that could only have 25% of the people and we were just doing power trail. And I brought back the old amp shanty from years ago and I plugged them all in, same wiring, same pedal board, same everything. And I said, "Man, I've been missing the boat." So they're back. And now I have eight of them, which is too much, right? - But why didn't you like them in 2016 because you were just playing the tweets and you were just into the tweet thing and you just weren't typing with them? - But a lot of money's didn't run. - Yeah, but when does that bother you? 'Cause you have a lot of money wrapped up in a lot of gear. - I know, but I probably stole them in 2016 because I was funding flying beads or sunburst leather balls to the defensive hop. And I got a couple of stupid offers on these things and I just, it's like a dumb knot to take, but now they're twice as much as they were when I sold the original bag, you know? It's just collectors do weird things. - So then when'd you get back into them or what was the first one that you got back after? - Or the list getting it. But when it's on stage now, it's three on stage now. But the list in Tombow, I was like, "Yes, this is real deal." And then I got a second one and then escalates. And then the crown jewel of the mall is the Lowell George. That one came to me after a 15 year search or I knew where it was, that this guy was ready to sell it. And I lost out on that in 2011 and it seems to me this year. And no regrets. It's a pretty special piece of rock and roll history. - What's been making you play Bender Telecasters lately? I feel like you've got a 68 that you've been playing and you had a couple songs like Time Clock which I love that Bender part. - I was just trying to write stuff like Jimmy Page did in a step and I have this killer Bender telling with a old Parsons wife. And it's like, it just works, you know? But you know, the thing about a B Bender is, like, especially if you think you get fancy with that, you can claim so hard because you're one step away from like, oops, shouldn't have done that. You know, that it's only a half step. - But you got the Bender and then you said, I got to write something with this and that's how you wrote the song Time Clock. So with that Bender, that great Bender part in the verse. - Yeah. Yeah, and that was, I wrote it on that guitar. And yeah, it's just a cool guitar to have as a studio tool and I used it a lot too. I used it for a long time. - Yeah, it's a great guitar. Joe, one of the things I want to ask you, I'm so curious about this. You talk a lot about using a 31 band EQ and just knowing where the frequencies are. I have no idea what this is. When I'm talking to sound guys, I'm like useless. So you've kind of inspired me here to get one, to really understand this. - But you don't remember what I'm talking about. Sound guy, it sounds whoopee or muddy or too... - That's me. - That's where I'm at right now. - 'Cause it's like, well, what is it? It's the two Ks, the five Ks. And eight Ks, it's two 50 units at 100 Hertz. What's rolling over it? You know, why is the floor time feeding back? Well, what is it, 350 Hertz? Well, start there. You know, you just start realizing what each of those things do and you can start talking intelligently and EQing your stuff more, you know, intelligently going, "Yeah, it needs a little air." Well, when you say air, when you say air to me, that's five K and above. You know, two K, 1.5 and two K, 2.5, that's the spikey bits. That's why it's like, why does it feel like your guitar sounds, you know, like driving a spike through my face? Well, it's because it's too much two Ks, you know? And once you just get over it and know what it's gonna do, your life gets a lot easier and it doesn't take work with one for about an hour. So what am I gonna do? I'm gonna get a 31 band EQ pedal and I'm gonna start moving, I'm gonna set everything wide. Zero and I'm gonna start dumping it. - But every time it's zero, each move, each of them up. Oh, you forget 20 Hertz that whales communicate like that. Okay, you wanna start at about 63 and 80. That's your kick drum, you know? Up to about 100 to 250, that's your bass guitar. 500 to about 5K, that's your guitar. Symbols are 8K, you know? And you start realizing, it's like, why can't I hear my guitar when the drummer starts playing? So 'cause the snare drum's eating your lunch. Why can't I hear my guitar when the B3 starts playing? Well, the organ and the keyboards are right in your frequency. So you need to like be around that. And so just take a guitar or a microphone and just see what each of those things does. I mean, extreme all the way up, all the way down. And it's great in your tree. - And then from there though, then you're gonna take the EQ out of your rig and then what are you gonna do? You're gonna try to find those frequencies with your pedals and with your amp knobs and try to recreate them. That's step two of really figuring out your frequency. - Well, also understand what you're doing, what it's strong at, what it needs, you know? A tune screamer is a mid-try, all it is, it's how it is. You know? It's like, you know, that's what it does. It cuts the bass and pokes up about 650, 800 Hertz and adds some gain. And, you know, so when people talk about like, I modified a tune screamer and put the bass back in and more high end, it's like, well, it's not a tune scream. It's an, you know, it's a, it's a sonic distortion. - Right, Joe, everyone always talks about how you took lessons from Danny Gadden. And I feel like even though Danny was the greatest player ever, you're up there too. I always have a hard time listening to Danny's playing and then hearing you're playing or hearing the influence of it. What elements from his playing do you think rubbed off on your playing or was it just the fretboard and the skill and the knowledge of the guitar? - No, I mean, I can sit down with ya and grab a telecaster and you'll know exactly what he thought. - I've seen you do it 'cause you can shred all I tell ya. I've seen you do it in video. - But it's not, it's just context. It's like the kind of stuff that I learned from him doesn't work in blues rock. It's much, it's stuff I learned from plastic. So it's context, you know? But he was the one who taught me how to speak. You gotta speak all the languages. You know, you gotta know a little feedback, you gotta know a little straight jazz, you gotta know blues, you gotta new rock, you know? He taught me all the language. And, but he also taught me how to drive a tele. And it's a different animal. - Okay, I know we're running out of time here. Is there some piece of vintage gear or something? That if you're, if you wanna buy something, you talk about Gibson amps are a great deal compared to Tweeds. Or is there something that you could throw out to us to go on reverb and buy that might not be so expensive? That would be a really cool, really great piece of gear. - Lab series L5, 212's appear, those things sound great. A Lab series L5 from the '70s. I would also say a Soak Check MiG 50, which is basically a basement head. MiG 16's are good. You don't have to spend a lot of money. A PB Class X 30, it's your home. You know what I mean? It don't have, it doesn't have to be bourgeois. I'm the king pork snip, I'm telling you that, you know? And, and I've seen Rob before play rented winds and selling Rob before. You're gonna sound like you, you know? I've also seen him use the dumpling and it sounded amazing. But he also sounds amazing to prevent a twin. He's Robin Ford. And that's, that's really the bottom line, you know? And my, my thing is don't read, well you could read, but don't take as gospel, internet information written by people that don't have gigs play. Like my, in my experience, those is the loudest voices and also the most uninformed. Because the people that don't chime in are actually too busy gigging and figuring it out. And, and that's the, and there's no right and wrong. There's absolutely no right and wrong. You do whatever you want, however you want it. When you want it, that's the beauty of this whole. And it's all subject, some people love my tone, some think people think it's the worst thing ever. Okay. Wow. Again, these are, these are outliers that I can't, and my best advice to anyone is just be yourself and don't listen to anybody if they're giving you unsolicited advice. It's just be like, if you're happy with your sound, you're happy with your playing and you're inspired and you're making music and you're playing. One more, one more to like this at this point. Joe, that's a great answer and some good gear to check out. It's good. All right, I gotta run. Thank you so much for taking the time. No problem, man. I'll talk to you soon.