Do you have questions about the ocean, or maybe about our climate or atmosphere? Maybe you wanna know, do Megaladons still exist? Or what's up with climate change? Is it actually real? Or even mermaids? Are they real? These are questions that are all answered in the new book, Megaladons, Mermaids, and Climate Change. There are more questions because they answer questions for the ocean and atmosphere. These are common questions, and maybe some questions that are not so common that are here to help you. And we have the authors, Ellen Prager and Dave Jones, on the podcast for today to help you answer those questions and discuss their book, where they just help you know about common questions around the ocean and atmosphere. So I can't wait to hear from them. Let's start the show. (upbeat music) Hey everybody, welcome back to another exciting episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Lourin. And this is the podcast where you find out what's happening with the ocean, how you can speak up for the ocean, what you can do to live for a better ocean by taking action. Today is a very interesting day because today we're gonna be talking about questions, questions around the ocean and atmosphere, questions that I feel people will ask all the time, either myself, Dave Jones, who's on the podcast today as a guest and Ellen Prager, who's also on a podcast today to talk about their new book that answer the questions that you may have or that other people may have, or maybe you don't even think you have these questions, but you need to know about them or you wanna know about them once you figure that out. And these are fun questions. Some of them are a little more serious, some of them are fun. They have some snarky remarks to them, they have some fun remarks to them, they have some very serious remarks to them, but they're questions that I feel like everybody should know about. And it's very difficult to kind of do a Google search on them because as we discussed in the interview, which we'll hear in a second, you just don't know what information you're getting, if the right question is being answered the proper way or if it's being influenced by somebody or not. And what I love about this book is that Ellen and Dave have a huge network of meteorologists, scientists, marine biologists, marine conservationists, oceanographers to help answer those questions, if they don't know it, or even if they do, but they wanna know the updated information 'cause all this information is changing as research goes on and on and on. And they have decades of experience and they want it to help out and provide a book that's a resource for you, whether you're 12 years old, whether you're 120 years old, it does not matter, they're here to help you out. And I just can't wait for you to listen to this interview. So let's listen to the interview with Ellen Prager and Dave Jones on the Megalodonts, mermaids and climate change answers to your ocean and atmosphere questions. Enjoy the interview and I will talk to you after. Hey Ellen, hey Dave, welcome to the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. Are you ready to talk about really ocean literature, which I'm really excited about? - We are all ready. - We are all ready. - All right, on, I love it. I love this energy. This is gonna be a lot of fun. Ellen, you, this is a returning guest bot for you. I think you were like my second or third guest on the podcast. - My podcast. - It was one of my first, so hopefully I'm a lot better interviewer now than I was back almost 10 years ago. But it's so much fun to be able to have you back in Dave. Welcome to, this is the first time you're on the podcast, hopefully not the last. And we're gonna be talking about a new book that you have coming out in October. It's called Megalodon's Mermaids and Climate Change. Answers to your questions and atmosphere questions. Ocean and atmosphere questions, sorry. And I'm excited because I feel like this is a book that is almost perfect timing. Just in general, there's a lot of questions out there and sometimes the answers are not exactly what you'd expect or really hard to believe depending on where, what sites you're looking at or where you're trying to find those resources. So it's nice to be able to have a book like this in the way it's presented and everything. I think it's gonna be really great. So we're gonna get into that. But before we do, let's just get reacquainted and acquainted with you, Dave, and reacquainted with you, Ellen. Ellen, why don't you just kind of let us know who you are and what you do. - Well, thank you so much for having us. - Of course. - All right, Ellen Prager. I am a marine scientist by training, but I've had all these amazing jobs, maybe some would say adventures in ocean science from teaching oceanography on shore for six weeks to out at sea for six weeks with Sea Education Association. I ran a marine lab in a very remote island in the Bahamas. I have all sorts of stories. We could actually have a whole other five cameras that worked for the US Geological Survey doing research. I was the assistant dean at the University of Miami, Rosenstil School, was the chief scientist for the world's only undersea research station actually lived twice underwater for two weeks, but what I discovered was I have this real passion for how do we make science entertaining and understandable for people of all ages who aren't necessarily scientists? Oh, and I almost forgot. This is since my last, oh, this is important. Since the last I was on with you, probably my claim to fame is I was a consultant on the movie "Molana." - Oh, wow. That is cool. - No, no, I did not know that. Oh, wow. - So, this whole idea of communications, I started writing books. I started writing popular science books and children's books. They wrote some eco-adventure novels, and so it's really been about how do we make science entertaining, understandable, and unusable for people of all ages. - And tell them what you did on Tuesday. (laughing) (laughing) - He works a lot. - He works a lot, I'm sure. That I know, I can see it in the updates. I've been following you for a while and just seeing what you're being up to. I didn't know about the "Molana" thing. We're gonna ask some questions about that and how that works. I think that's really cool to be able to do that. And just numerous speaking opportunities and engagements and being able to engage with people, like you said, who are non-scientists, I feel is so important. I think it's one of the front lines of conservation that we never really think about when we think about becoming marine biologists and marine conservation. So definitely appreciate the work you do and have been doing and continue to do on this. So really, really appreciate it. - Thank you. - Thank you. Dave, let's get to know you a little bit. Can you just let us know who you are and what you do? - Sure, yeah, I'm Dave Jones. I'm the founder and CEO of Storm Center Communications and I'm gonna have to step out of the ocean just for a little bit, but I'll maintain the vapor part. I'm a meteorologist and so we do a lot of forecasting of the atmosphere, right? So my past included working at NASA Goddard Space Flight Center and their global modeling and simulation division. When I was in college and then a little bit after that, then I worked for a computer weather graphics company and I helped design computer weather graphic systems that broadcast meteorologists would use around the country and around the world. So I would travel to TV stations around the country and train those broadcast mats, how to put together their forecasts and how to put together graphics for their shows. And then I helped a company start up in the Pacific Northwest, forecasting winds for wind surfers. That was pretty awesome. - Nice. - And then I ended up working for NBC4 in Washington, DC. I was a broadcast meteorologist myself for about 10 years in Washington and that was really the source of a lot of our questions I think that we put in the book. - Right. - And so that's very interesting. And then in 2000, I left NBC and started my own company called Storm Center Communications. And that's what we're doing today. Working on a lot of technology to help people share data, access data and share it amongst other computers in a real-time collaborative environment. So we can all be on the same map looking at the same data and we can help people understand the value of data and how to trust it for decision making. - You said something at the end that was really important is that sharing of data. So before, was it just like different regions had their own silos in terms of they would collect the data they would present it in their own kind of way and then another like the Southwest region and the Northwest region would have difference compared to the Southeast and Northeast. - Andrew, you have it, it's a silo is the key word there and that's the way that many agencies work in organizations where they collect and curate their own data and it's very difficult for anyone else in any other science or if you don't know because you don't know a specific person how to access the data, it's very difficult and that's why we developed what we call geo-collaborate so we can access disparate data sets and bring them together into one map so everybody can see it in a real-time collaborative environment. - Yeah and even like I would imagine the way it's displayed before when they're in the silos probably displayed differently from region to region. Now it's all the same so it makes it just uniform, really easy to make, seeing the connections between the regions, obviously the weather doesn't stop at borders or the weather doesn't stop within regions so you're probably seeing a lot more and it's easier for not only meteorologists but also just people in general to be able to interpret those maps, right? - Yeah and it turns out that the weather has a little bit to do with the ocean, I think. - It's just a little bit, eh? - Yeah, great, in the beginning of the book that we're gonna talk about so we have a graphic of us having an arm wrestling and over my head I have a thought bubble size ocean and Dave Overhead says one says atmosphere so we're, you know, which is more important. - And I'm sweating for some reason while I'm arm wrestling out on that, I don't know. I have to talk about it. - I'm smiling and taking my time. (laughing) - I love it, well you know, it's really interesting too because growing up, you know, wanting to be in marine biology, as you learn, you know, both fields. Oceans, you have to learn climate and when you learn climate you have to learn oceans. Obviously, as we mentioned, they're very, very connected but you know, what's interesting is both of you have had such a, you walk that line of science and data but you also walk the line of presenting in front of people and taking that complex information and being like here you go, like this is what's happening. You know, like how, you know, we'll start with you. It's like, how did you develop that skill set to take the data? You know, talk about even coral reefs, right? Like, you know, you headed a research station. You know, you did a lot with coral reefs. You do a lot of information. How do you learn that skill set to present it to people of all ages? - So I think there's two things. One, I think you have a passion for it and interest in doing it and you, for me and, you know, when I started doing a lot of public speaking and I went on air, I didn't talk about, I become sort of an on air expert and I've been on CNN and NBC and all those, I didn't train for that but what I would do is I would learn from my mistakes and I made many to begin. And so what I think have to pay attention like, oh my audience, their eyes are glazing over. They have no idea. And then I would change what I was saying. So I had a passion for doing it. It turns out, I think I have an inherent maybe strength because I really like people. I like interacting with people. I like hearing what they have to say and really listening to them. And so my skills have evolved over time just because I've seen what works, what doesn't work. You know, and I'm really trying to stay aware of that. If I'm talking to an audience and I've lost them, I'm like, oh, I gotta shift gears. So it's not, you know, you can have some natural talent for it but you have to learn. I learned a lot. Oh my gosh, I look back at my first appearances on television and I'm like, oh. But I have learned a ton by doing it and now I love it. But it's, you know, also as a scientist at the beginning, I was so nervous because I was, I have to get every single technical detail right. Yes. I put a lot of pressure on myself. Yes. And when I realized that the people I was talking to, I didn't have to get those technical details exact. They could be right, but maybe a little bit broader. Maybe not, and it was much easier. So I don't know Dave, how about you? But that was for me. Yeah, no, I think that's right. But although when you're a meteorologist, everybody thinks that you get paid for being right 50% of the time, right? So I was gonna mention that. I was like, you're probably, in the summer, you're probably the most like most loved person ever. And then in the winter, and you're like, no. And then if you get the weather wrong or the weather changes, they're like, oh, we hate this guy. Like, why would we? Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah, and Lord help you. If you get a mom's daughter's wedding wrong, you know? Oh gosh, yes. Woo! Man. 'Cause that's gonna change anything, right? Yeah. Oh, really? But it's interesting too, because, you know, as a media, like growing up as a mean, wanting to be a meteorologist, well, I can't even say it, weather person, let's just say, you know, you, you, what is your thought process wanting to be that, in that field? Is it, you wanna be in front of a camera and talking about the weather, or you wanna be studying at NASA, which you've been able to do both. What was your thought process going on in that career journey? That's a great question, because, you know, my first, my first experience with weather was very electrifying. I was six years old. I was looking out my bedroom window, and I saw lightning strike a tree across the street. Oh, wow. And then I saw ball lightning, which is a ball of energy. Right. Float out across the street, sort of towards my house. And I was just, you know, six years old. I was glued to it, and then all of a sudden, it just disappeared in mid-air and went away. And so, that was it. That's all I wrote from, I was six years old till today. It's meteorology all the way, so. That's crazy. Now, going from, like, presenting in front of people to doing, like, research on sort of the climate, how did you sort of manage that? Like, you obviously started off at NASA doing some research areas, and then going into broadcasting. Like, how does that work? It was really very, very interesting. I was very fortunate when I was in college, and maybe we'll talk about this a little bit about, you know, asking questions and being curious about things. When I was at University of Maryland, there was a classmate of mine in my cloud physics class. Oh boy. (laughing) And he said to me, he said, I was working at NASA at the time, and I was in class, and he said, "Hey, have you ever thought about doing TV?" I interned over at NBC4, and he said, "Do you ever think about television?" I said, "No, not really." And so he said, "Well, you ought to come over, you know, and just see what I do." So, you know, I was doing, supporting a research scientist at NASA, and then I went over to experience NBC, and it's a totally different pace, right? I mean, deadlines all the time. You had to be on at 5.15, and 6.15, and all that stuff. So, I wasn't on the air then. I was just creating graphics, but the pressure is there to create those graphics, to be ready for the chief meteorologist at that time to go on the air. And so, I just fell in love with, I love doing supporting research at NASA, but I love the fast pasteness of news. - Ah, okay, gotcha. - And so, I started to bring some things from NASA over to NBC, like 3D hurricane visualizations, and the meteorologist would put them on the air. - Yeah. - And all of a sudden, the researcher at NASA got more funding. So, I was like, "What, oh, this is pretty cool." So, it's that researched operations transition that I have been fascinated with for a very long time. - That's really cool. I love that aspect. Now, over your, both of you, over your times, like your career periods, we've seen a drastic change in our climate. We've been predicting it probably, you've both have probably been predicting it for a while. Hopefully, we would never gonna see it in our lifetimes, but obviously, it's here, we see a lot of consequences due to climate change. Dave, we'll start with you from your perspective. Did you get a lot, like, were you openly talking about climate change, maybe not on NBC4, like during your broadcast, but was that a topic of conversation during your time throughout your career, and sort of, and how has that changed over time? - Yeah, no, thanks for that question. I think I was exposed to more climate-type data as I worked at NASA. And so, I almost feel like I grew up at a time when the discoveries were just happening. And so, while I wasn't a scientist, I was, you know, did my undergraduate work, but I wasn't a PhD, like some people. And so, you know, I just would sit there and observe and listen to the scientist talk. And so, I knew there was something going on, and then, of course, when I got in through college, and then I started doing other work with, you know, whether graphic systems and stuff, and training broadcast meteorologists, I would end up teaching them maybe how to integrate some climate into their broadcast. Not formally, but just saying, hey, you know, I mean, you might wanna compare how many record highs we've been having with how many we had 10 years ago, you know, and giving them those kind of ideas that they would take and run with. I love that, I love that. Now, Ellen, you know, you've talked to a lot of people over your time being a science communicator and a marine science communicator. How has your message of climate change changed over that time? - Well, that's a tough but good question. So, you know, I, when I was doing research, and in some of the labs that I worked in, I was very heavily involved in coral reefs. And I'm not sure, well, I shouldn't say this anymore. I would've said, I'm not sure there's anything that's more obvious, the impacts of climate change, but that's not true anymore. Now with extreme weather events, what we're seeing, it's very obvious, but with coral reefs, I very early on saw the impacts of climate change and the just extreme consequences of prolonged higher water temperatures and having big mass coral mortality events got to the point where it was very hard for me to go diving in places where I spent a lot of time in coral reefs and to go diving and just see rubble. And it's still very hard for me. I love coral reefs. It's one of the things that got me into marine science. It's in graduate school, I worked in coral reefs, and after that, I worked in coral reefs. And so I will say, for me, at first, I didn't want to talk about the extremes 'cause I thought that was too alarmist. I thought, you know, like you said, we probably wouldn't see them in our lifetime and we had some time to change our path, but unfortunately, that's not true anymore. And so now I am very willing to talk about the extremes that we're seeing today and that we don't have any time left. We have to make changes now. And so, you know, 'cause you used to hear that, oh, that person's being an alarmist. - Right, yeah. - But I think people between wildfires, flooding, rapid intensification of hurricanes, what's going on with coral reefs, it's all very obvious now, the extreme heat. So don't think it's alarmist anymore to say how big of an issue this is. - Right. - And usually scientists are very conservative, right? They don't want to be on the right side of the bell curve, you know, with, you know, shouting this and that. - Right, and I think in terms of the scientific community, I think you've seen a lot more scientists be willing to say. - A lot more now. - You know, it's not just climate change is real, but it is dire and we need it to handle on it now. - Yeah, there's definitely more of that alarming messaging coming out from scientists, including myself, because we have to, you know, 'cause that's what we're seeing. It's really hard to, we don't have to predict as much. Like, oh, it's gonna come. It's like the droughts are gonna come, the wildfires are gonna, they're here and they're worse than ever. And I think, you know, one thing that I realized from, I think what's happening is people are getting personally touched by it. You know, especially here, I mean, all over the world, but if we focus on North America, you know, I remember last, right before last year in 2023, I was saying, you know, in Ontario, we're pretty good. You know, like considering all the damages happen on the West Coast and on the East Coast, like we're kind of protected a little bit. And we've been finding, of course, lo and behold, I should have knocked on wood when I said it. You know, we had the wildfires of our Northern barrier forest across Canada and we started to get smoke from the North. And not only did we get it, but I mean, we saw the images of New York City getting it from Northern Quebec and all that smoke coming in. And now we're saying, okay, now we're starting to, there's no denying it now that something's happening. But I find now, and we'll get into it just, 'cause we're gonna talk about the book in just a few seconds, I think this is a good segue into it, 'cause you mention it on the cover, is you have the words climate change on there. And sometimes that can be a very polarizing phrase to give people is, we're gonna talk about climate change now. And some people are like, oh, no, it doesn't exist, or it's still some denial, there's still some, oh, well, we've just gotta live with it. We've seen the messaging change from various influences, but for both of you, and Dave, we can start with you, when you speak to people about climate change, do you find that just saying those words change the way the conversation goes in the first place? Like, do you ever, like, omit those words and just talk about, look, we're seeing flooding, or we're seeing droughts, or we're seeing wildfires instead of using the words climate change? - Yeah, I typically don't go into a room and say, let's talk climate change, but we do occasionally, somewhat frequently go into places and listen to other people talking. And we do something that would be great for everybody to do, and that is meet them where they are. So as they talk, they might be saying, I don't know, I haven't caught anywhere near as many fishes I did this time last year. And we might say, well, what do you think is causing that? What's the problem? I don't know, I mean, the ocean seems to be pretty warm, maybe they don't like warm weather, warm water. And so, you know, you can start that conversation. You don't really wanna start with a kind of polarizing term, so they think that you're gonna be trying to teach them something, but just talk to them and ask questions. That's the really key thing about this book. And what we try to tell everybody, we talk to, ask questions. - Be curious. - Well, and I think the other part is, if we do bring up climate change, and somebody says, oh, well, you know, I don't really believe that. And we say, well, why not? - Why not? - And I think it's very important to be respectful and not condescending. And, you know, a lot of times we'll hear somebody say something and we're like, well, why do you think that? You know, even if it's something we know is wrong, on the data, we wanna understand, where did that information come from? Why is it that they are thinking that way? And so I think it's really important to ask questions and listen to other people and just have a respectful conversation. We've had several of those with people who, when we first started, were really skeptical. And then when, by the end of the conversation, they were like, well, you know, I think, you know, maybe, maybe you're right, maybe you're right. And so, you know, and again, it's also being able to use the right language. We don't have to speak in science, jargon, in terms to explain things. You know, what are people's concerns? So all of that, I think we try and do that, when we're talking about that issue. - When I think it's really great, I've heard this from a lot of other people lately as well, and I had a guest on Janelle Kellman, who, she's to be the mayor of City of Salsalito in California. And now she sits on the city council and she's gonna run in 2026 for the lieutenant governor of California. And she was saying the same thing in the city. She wouldn't mention climate change. She would just kind of like, hey, what's your concern? Like in your city, like, you know, talking to her constituents, like, what's your concern? They'd be like, well, I'm worried about flooding, or I'm worried about wildfires, or I'm worried about this. Okay, let's see what policies we could put in place to stop that. And lo and behold, there would be policies that met up with a lot of the solutions, you know, that you would see people propose for climate change, but you take the word out, and sometimes, like you said, you meet them where they are, like, what's your concern? What are you worried about? You know, and I think that we start to see the answers come out and less of polarization and more of like, well, yeah, this is affecting you and me at the same time. Locally here, you know, we've been having some crazy weather, you know, as the humidity increases, we've had really, really hot weather, but we've been starting to get squalls, which we like, squall warnings and flash flooding. And, you know, people are concerned that they're basements and they're backyards and everything is going to continue to flood over time, so we need to make those changes, forget about climate change, what do we need to do to make those changes, and how do we prepare for the next, the next bout of flooding? Sometimes I get conversations started by saying, hey, let's talk about the rapid warming of the lower boundary layer. And so we're gonna-- (laughing) - And that's what I said, that's what I say, excuse me. Why don't I talk? (laughing) - I get some every time. - I love it, I love it. You never know when you might get that, right? You could be at MIT and just somebody comes up and asks you that, but this leads us great into the book because, you know, we talk about asking questions, we talk about being curious, and there are a lot of people who are curious, but may not have the ability to get the answers that they want, and not just saying that they don't have the intellect, it's trying to find the right answer to things. We were talking about this before we started recording. Social media and the internet has been wonderful in sharing information, but it doesn't mean you're getting the right information. I remember, I grew up without the internet, and in the mid 90s we started to get internet to our houses, and we started to learn more about the internet, but I remember my high school teachers saying, hey, don't always believe what you read on the internet. I think that's changed a lot, where now we rely so much on the internet, and so much on information that comes to us that we believe, sometimes we believe, like, the first thing that we see, or that we Google search, or that we, you know, wherever you're searching, or watching a video, or things like that, it can be very difficult to get that source, and so you can ask that question, but are you gonna get the right answers? You have provided a solution for that by putting together, both of you, putting together this book called Megaladon's Mermaids and Climate Change, answers to your ocean and atmosphere questions. I think it's laid out perfectly. I think this is a book that a lot of people need. Now, how, obviously, using both of your backgrounds and your careers, what was the reasoning for this book, and like, why did you guys want to collaborate to do it? - So, we love to ask questions, and I'll have to tell a little story about Dave. - Okay, come on. - Let's see, two years ago, we continued this year, I will say, but two years ago, we were at the American Meteorological Society conference for broadcast meteorologists, and every time somebody would give a talk at the end of the talk, Dave would go up to the mic. I have a question, and they'd be like, "Dave Jones, Dave Jones, Dave Jones, "the break, the moderator, "the people organizing the conference at the break "came over to Dave and handed him a microphone." He said, "You might as well just have your own." (laughing) - But-- - I didn't have to get up. I didn't have to get up. It's perfect, yeah. - But the truth is, then a young meteorologist later in the conference got up to the mic, 'cause they had a mic in the front. - Yeah. - And people wouldn't ask questions. The speaker would stop, nobody was asked. This young woman got up, and she said, "I'm really very nervous about asking a question, "but hearing Dave Jones, I'm gonna do it." - Right, right, yeah. - We both feel that asking questions is really important. Not only when you're looking at some information online, you wanna ask questions and do some investigation, but when you're giving talks, as somebody, we both do a lot of public speaking, we hate it when nobody asks questions, when a lot of people ask questions, they make, they may make you look at a subject from a different perspective. They may test you to think in a different way, but it's how we learn. There's a, sort of in the dedication of the book, it says, "Questions are the lifeblood of learning." - I like that. - And you really believe that. And so that was, that and the idea that there's a lot of misinformation out there. And so we thought, what a great way to combat that misinformation by giving the answers to the questions that we and our colleagues, most frequently, we get. And plus, kind of make, have fun with it, with using something like the zany questions, or you know, things. - Yeah, right. - So we could make it fun and yet very informative. - And having 26 nieces and nephews, I get a lot of zany questions today. (laughing) Wow, 26 nieces and nephews, that's awesome. - That is, let's make family functions a lot of fun. That's a big, that's something. - Oh yeah, yeah, football, baseball, soccer. - Weather. - Feeling hot. - Weather. - Yeah. - Weather, yeah, exactly. I love it, I love it. So now, laying out this book, Dave, I know Ellen, you've obviously written quite a number of books. Dave, have you ever written a book before? - Well, this is, so here's the thing. I'm really excited about this one, 'cause it's, I know it's gonna be my best seller yet. And okay, yes, it is my first. (laughing) - I love it. Well, it must have been nice too, 'cause you had Ellen to help you out with the process, right? Like in terms of like, what did you-- - Oh yeah, careful, careful there. - She's great, she's awesome. I mean, you know, she would say, "Hey, I need to learn about thunderstorms and stuff like that." So I'd write something, I'd give her six paragraphs and she said, "Is this right in three sentences?" (laughing) - We collaborate very well, 'cause we both recognize that the other person has expertise that we don't have. And so it's, and we have the same sense of humor, which is really helpful. - Yeah. - We can put in places where we know that they have to be more serious than we have. Whenever we can inject a little humor, you know, we'll put that in, and so we just have, we tend to collaborate very well in that sense. - That's good. - There are things that we each knew a little bit about, but we needed to do some homework on, so that was good to do it. And we have between the two of us, we have this amazing network of colleagues that, you know, we could go to for questions. We had folks at NASA on space weather there and heliophysics that we actually could contact and we talked to, we sent some sections to, we know this amazing climatologist who reviewed this, you know, a lot of the science in the book. So that, and some of they provide us with some of the questions in the book too. - So, great. - Yeah. - Oh, I think that's awesome. Now, were you each the source of the questions for ocean and atmosphere? So, Dave, did you ask ocean questions and Ellen, did you ask atmosphere questions? - Well, exactly where the questions came from. - You know, during, we might have just shared questions, but I think one of the neat things that we did is we, we did talk to colleagues and we invited colleagues to tell us, what are some of the, you know, wacky or zany questions or most frequently asked questions that you get? And, you know, I have a network of probably, like Ellen was saying, probably 1500 broadcast meteorologists, you know, and say, hey, send me some of your wacky questions. If we use them in the book, we'll tell a little bit about you and stuff like that. And, you know, we work with NASA and NOAA, like Ellen said, so we can turn to some of those, you know, folks that work at the staff level and also at the senior level. - I mean, we got people from the Weather Channel. We got the director of the National Weather Service. We got the director of NOAA. - Yeah. - You know, we, you know, so people that we know, we've got them and to tell us their favorite questions. And so, you know, there were questions that we've been asked, our colleagues have now. - Yeah. - And that was, it was really fun to be able to go out and ask people those, that sort of question. - That's amazing. And now when you get to the answers to those questions, you use your backgrounds, you use your colleagues' backgrounds and the work that they've done and all the papers that have come out and like, you're probably having to search around for new information because obviously everything's being updated as we speak. How do you put all that together in, you know, a succinct and like, as you mentioned, a little bit of humor at times, a little bit serious at times. How do you put all that together so it's not one long drawn, you know, answer for one question that becomes your book? - I mean, the good thing about Ellen is from the ocean, she knows everything. So, we didn't have to go anywhere. So, we're not hungry. - So, we very purposefully made sure that the answers are not that long. In fact, in the beginning of the book, we have a little note from us and tells us a little bit about each of us. But we also say this book is not meant to be a comprehensive encyclopedia about each of these topics. And then what we do at the end of the book, for every chapter, we have reference material that we used. And so, if people want more detail, they want to learn more, they could go there. We just wanted to include in there the essence of the answer. What's the essence of the answer, but not go into great detail. - Yeah, yeah. We didn't want all the professors around the world contacting us, telling us we didn't use the Clausius Clapper on Equation. (both laughing) - And then with the illustration, we had a lot of fun. We would come up with an idea for, you know, an illustration that fit within a topic. And then we would send them to Illustrator and we'd say, "Here's what our vision is." And she sent it back, we'd be like, "Ugh!" And so then we, she was great. And then her name's Elise Birk Burnbach. And we'd send it back and we'd ask, "Can you do this?" And she, it was great working with her. And so, we thought where we wanted on each of them. And I think there's about 20, 21 illustrations. And then we have some color images in the book too. Some photographs and... - Yeah, I mean, most of my questions to Elise were, "Could I have some muscles?" (both laughing) You know, it just, that looks like my teeth, but it's really my mustache. (both laughing) So we're very deep science questions. - Very deep, very deep. But, you know, it's interesting. I've had the opportunity to talk to a lot of authors where, you know, they've put together, they collate a lot of information and they want illustrations to be done. You know, can you talk about how important it is to have a great working relationship with also a great illustrator to understand the, what you're, like, the message you're trying to portray. You know, you've had, like, this one seems like, you guys have a great sense of humor. Seems like a lot of fun. Some of the illustrations sound like, like, they're a lot of fun as well. But it also has to be, you know, pertinent to the answer to that question. How important is that relationship to have? - Oh, not only, not only do you have to have some of you can work with, but you have to be able to go back and forth. And she was really good because I think in our contract, it says like, you have one, you know, redo. - Right. - And I'm like, oh, that's going to be tough. And that was not the case. I mean, there were a couple that went three or four or, I mean, like, we have one about lenticular clouds, one of Dave's favorites that people often think are UFOs, but they're really clouds. And she had the illustration of the cloud. We just were like, that's not really what they look like. And so it's like, can you draw them more like this? And we would send her photographs. - Right. - And we'd say, here's looking more like this. And so it's very important. And again, part of it, and this is also in writing, and when you get to the point of anything, you have to take your ego out of it. Have a good relationship with an illustrator, or a good relationship with an editor. - Yeah. - It's not about what you want or what you personally, it's what works the best. - Right. - What's going to be the best thing? - Gotcha, yeah. And the first time I met or saw Elise was at a natural hazards conference in Colorado. And it was really amazing because she, there was a session going on. She was on the side of the room, sketching out in real time the conversation. And by the end of the session, there was an entire summary with sketches of what we talked about. And it, I mean, she drew ecosystems. She drew the sun and fish and birds and people interacting with each other. And it was done by the session time. - Think about the speed and accuracy of the way she's able to do that in that timeframe. It's crazy. That's insane. Yeah, I love, I didn't realize how important it was to have an illustrator, I thought having an illustrator, you just have to have an illustrator, but having that working relationship is so important. So it's great to hear. - Yeah, and to understand your vision, I mean, if she thought we just wanted straight illustrations, it probably would have been difficult, but when she figured out that we were looking for the humor bent in it, it means that the illustrations changed a little bit. - Yeah, she's like, okay, I like you guys. I don't want to work with you. - Now she's like, I get it now. - Gotcha. (laughing) - That's nice. - Could you tell us our favorite illustrations? (laughing) - Well, I mean, if you want to. - So we have a lot, but one of our favorite ones, and it gets back to where do you get your source of information? - Yeah, yeah. - And so, you know, you want to make sure that the expert you have is really the expert in the topic that you're talking about. So we have an illustration of a cow, and there's a veterinarian with this-- - With the glove. - With the glove. (laughing) - You know what that's, you know, and doing his thing, and then I'm looking back like this. - Like what? - What? (laughing) - And then there's a farmer, and the farmer's saying to the vet, so-- - The vet, yeah. What do you think, and the vet says-- - No, what do you think about climate change? - Yeah, well climate change isn't real, you know? He's got his arm up there. - Yeah, yeah, that's what we're like. - And so it's like, wait a minute, you're on the vet, right? You're not a scientist, environmental scientist. - Yeah. - But it's good, it's all about, you know, who's your source of information? - For sure, I love that. I love that. Now, and speaking of that is, you know, who is this book designed for? You know, we talked about people who have curiosity, but everybody has curiosity at every different age group, and it's always good to, these books tend to target a specific age group, and demographic, and just audience. Ellen, typically your books in the past have done more, like, tween and teen, you know, to get a hold of that. Has this changed? - Yeah, so I kind of have a range of books. - Okay. - Well, I've written young kids books, which are four seven illustrated, I've written some middle schooler, adventure novels, but I've also written quite a few books that are popular science, and that's what I would call this. It's popular science. And typically, the target is high school and above. - Yeah. - But it's also, there are some very ambitious middle schoolers who would like it too. - Right. - And we speak, one of the best audiences will be educators and science communicators, like informal educators, because we know they get these questions. - And Uncle Joe too, 'cause he knows everything. (laughing) - So, you know, the target audience is really, how do you like to say from? - From 12 to 120. - I think it's good, nice and narrow down range. I like that. (laughing) But these are questions, I mean, these are questions they're asked by all that, everybody within that age group, right? These are common questions. We're sometimes, like for us scientists, sometimes we're like, well, how do you not know that? But a lot of people don't know this kind of stuff, that that information is not available, and they need to know the answer to those questions. So I think that-- - And here's the thing too, is that I would get asked this all the time, and it's not, it's actually not in this book, but I would get asked all the time, how did you become interested in weather, and how did you figure out it could be a job? - Right. - And so, well, okay, yeah, it is in the book, but people would say, I love the weather, I just never knew I could make money at it. And so, what I realized early on was that everybody at some point in their life probably wanted to be a meteorologist. - Yeah. - You know, because they're watching the weather, you're, there's a new-- - No, I have to interrupt, because it's really, they want to be a marine biologist. - Well, maybe, maybe, it's possible. - They said, they said, those sharks, you know, yeah, yeah, I have to admit, I have to, when I tell people I'm a marine biologist at like parties and things like that, they're telling me, oh, I always want to be marine, but I didn't know you can make a career out of it. - They're exactly so safe, they're very similar. - Very simple, and then you probably get, oh, you get the pet the dolphins. - Oh, yes. (all laughing) - I get the roar. - And then I go into my speech, yeah, and then I go into my speech about dolphins, and then they're like, oh, oh, no, I don't want to pet them. - Yeah, no. - But you know what's also really interesting? So we have some wacky questions, which we could talk about, but there's also some really important questions in this book, and I'm gonna give you an example to it. - Yeah, perfect. - So related to the news right now. - Okay, perfect. - Just came out that there was a storm in St. Petersburg, Florida, and a group of teens sheltered under a tree. Tree got struck by lightning, and one of those teens very tragically passed away. - Oh, this sucks. - People have this misunderstanding that a tree is a safe shelter in lightning, and we have a whole chapter on lightning, and a lot of it is about safety. - Right. - And one of the things we very clearly say is, do not shelter under a tree, because it conducts lightning and it through the ground, and you do not want to be there. So in addition to the wacky and the fun questions, and just some other things that I think people are curious about, we also have some really important questions. - Oh yeah, yeah, and regarding lightning and trees, I mean, I think a lot of people run under a tree to stay dry. - Right. - And they don't want to get wet. But unfortunately, it's a thunderstorm, and lightning likes to strike the tallest objects. And we've seen it, we saw it several years ago, just outside of the White House in Washington, D.C. - Yes, I remember that. - For more people, went under a tree to get away from a storm. Lightning struck, and three out of the four of them were killed. - Yeah, it's terrible, and that should not be happening. And it's all about education and awareness. And so, that's, you know, we hope, yeah, we're answering some fun questions and things that people are curious about, but they're also some really important things about hurricanes, lightning, climate change, all of that. So it's, yeah, we always say we have a lot of fun, but we also have some really cool topics in there. - Well, and I think that also goes to what you mentioned earlier, Ellen, was to meet people where they're at. And, you know, that's a common thing. I mean, you think about, right when you said that, I think about, you know, a soccer field, usually there's multiple soccer games going on, you're in an open field, there may be a few trees that are around, a few large trees that are around, you get the downpour, people are running, they're panicking, they're either going to their cars, or if they're not, like, you know, they go under a tree and they wait under a tree, and then you have some people don't stand to that tree. No, no, it's fine to stand to that tree. No, no, don't, and then you get the, sort of the local lore of, yes, it is good or no, it's not, and these kids are gonna listen to their parents one way or another because that's their safety net, right? That's where they go for, and it's really, I agree with you, it's really important that these questions come out again and again and again, even though we think, oh, that's a simple question to answer, but people don't know, you know, just based off the couple of examples, and that could be life-threatening, you know, at times, and we don't wanna see that, obviously. So I think that's really important. Well, we have sharks are in there, jellyfish are in there. Nice. So is the question about jellyfish, you don't need to pee on somebody's foot if they get stung by a jellyfish, is that? Yeah, so that is a major question, in fact, but you even have an illustration in there, and about that question, and we explain the science behind why the answer is? No! (both laughing) So we explain why you don't, it could actually make it worse. Right, right. Not only is it disgusting, it could make it worse. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Of course we have that in there. Awesome, and I'll speak in a question, like you seem to have a lot of really interesting questions, some fun and some, you know, obviously, a series. Dave, I'm gonna ask each of you this, but Dave, I'll ask you first, what was your favorite question to answer in that book? Oh, gosh, well, I did like them all. I think one that's really quite popular now, and it has been for a number of years, when people go outside and they look up and they see jet planes fly over and they see the contrails coming out of the jet plane. Well, there's a certain group of people who think that they are chemtrails, and that the government is spraying us so they can alter our minds to think a certain way. And of course, that's not true. Contrails are condensation trails out of the back of a jet engine, and it's very cold up there. So you're immediately having the temperature meet the dew point, it creates a cloud, becomes a cirrus cloud made of ice crystals, and sometimes an airplane will fly through a pocket of dry air and so the contrail doesn't form because it evaporates that moisture right away. But then when it hits air that's more moist and can support a cloud, it will re-show up, right? And so some people say, aha, they're not spraying there now, but the bar is spraying over here. And so if they would just take a little bit of time to understand some science, then it might not be so pervasive. - So what'd it be safe to say? A question that I just got from that, I mean, you could probably answer these questions all day. - You know, you look at areas, say like Arizona, very dry area. Is it still dry at the sort of the 35,000 feet of a jet that would fly, and would you still see those contrails? - That's a great question. So Arizona's very dry at the surface, but the atmosphere, you can think of a whole bunch of layers, like a lot of layers, and each one of those layers can have moisture in them, and so that's what determines levels of clouds that you see during the day, as a matter of fact, how moist is that layer of the atmosphere to produce a cloud? And where you don't see clouds, where it's clear, it's too dry, or the air is pressing down. That's why high pressures are good, 'cause they're pressing down air, and vertical motion creates clouds, descending motion gets rid of clouds. - Okay. - Well, you can have different layers over Arizona, and you can see those contrails up there. - I gotta get this book, 'cause even I'm learning things off of this. (laughing) Ellen, Ellen, I'm gonna ask you, and Dave, I apologize before, 'cause I asked you what your favorite question is. Obviously, there's gonna be a lot of questions in there that you probably like, as you mentioned, so Ellen, I'm gonna change this question up. What was one of your favorite questions to answer? - Also, Jellyfish One was one of my favorites, but one of the others, you already actually mentioned it, is Megalodonts. I do a lot of public speaking, and I know you and all my colleagues get, "Well, how do you know that they're not still alive "in the deep sea?" We've only explored less than 10% of the ocean. You just said that. How do you know that they get on there? And so, I go through the scientific evidence as to how we know they're not still alive, but one of my favorite, there's several lines of evidence, but one is that, as you well know, sharks produce about 40,000 teeth during their lifetime. - Yeah. - 40,000 during their lifetime, like a conveyor belt. - Right. - Yes, there were giant sharks with teeth seven inches long, producing 40,000 teeth a year. - That's terrifying. - And we know that they liked productive waters and the subtropics, they're probably pretty close to shore. We would find some. - Yeah. - The only teeth we find are fossilized teeth, millions of years old. So we know they're not still in the modern ocean. - Yeah. - And so, you know, giving the actual scientific evidence how we know they're not still alive is really important. So that, I would say, is one of my favorites. - So the movie The Meg is not real, is what you're trying to say. That's fiction then. - It is not. It was fun though. - It was fun though. - I'm not. - I'm not against. - It made a lot of wonder. - I'm not against those kind of movies where they're so, you know, kind of outrageously fun and they're not supposed to be taken as real science. Now, the other kind of things, they're the mockumentaries that they have little, yes, they have little, you know, disclaimer. - This is not, yeah. - Three point font going on before. - Yeah, exactly. Nobody can see that. - I have a problem with it. - Of course. Yeah, 'cause there was a famous one, I think we're probably thinking of the same one. It was during Shark Week. They had like, you know, quote unquote, no, a scientist on there and they weren't real. They were just actors. And I think they tried to play a spoof on everybody. And I just remember the comments after on social media. Like, I'm never going in the ocean again. And I can't believe, you know, we haven't heard about this before. And it's amazing the power of communication and what that can do from an advantageous point of view and in education. And then what it could do is just put the living fear in everybody from going in the ocean and obviously. - And the power of digitalization, right? The power of digitalization, the more real you can make something look, the more believable, you know, people think it is. And it's the same thing with weather. If you can, we're work doing some work right now trying to make flood levels be as realistic as possible so people understand not their house might be above the water, but the road and the critical infrastructure is all going to be messed up so they better evacuate. You know, you need that kind of level of realistic visualizations. - What I find really interesting to me, and I think this happens a lot of places, not just in North America, but the amount of the lack of information when people buy houses or move into an area, we have people moving all over countries and have a way across the world now where you can work anywhere in the world. And you don't know where those flood planes are. You like that were either built over or they're still there, but there's infrastructure there that like you mentioned, Dave, like that will get flooded and that's expected to get flooded. You know, usually the people who know are the insurance companies or the government. And, but a lot of residences who buy a certain land plots or houses or apartments or whatever that might be or businesses and they, all of a sudden they realize, hey, all of a sudden my place is being flooded by five feet or, you know, even if it's just a little bit wet basement or, you know, we had a storm here where a storage place, the office got flooded five feet, like insane amounts and had never happened before because those are designed for a hundred year storms, but those are happening more and more now. So it's, I find it really interesting how we don't get that. So having a tool like that would be really, really great for that availability for everybody to be shown. - Yeah, and then you have a husband and wife and kids, they buy a house, they move in, the kids are playing in the backyard, they bring back a whole bucket full of seashells and they say, look dad, look at all these seashells. He's like, we don't live near the ocean. We're like, we're still here. He's like, oh, the big flood must have brought that. - Yeah, exactly. Now, you know, this is a book that answers, how many questions do you answer? Like, do you know the number? - We actually have never counted. - Wow, no. - I assume it's quite a bit. I assume it's more than-- - There's a lot, there's a lot. - Yeah. - That's our answer, a lot. - A lot, okay. So now obviously this is not like a finite amount of questions, there are a lot of other questions that you can answer. I know this is, you know, we're talking about releasing this as the first edition. Do you think, you know, is there a will and a want to do another edition? And obviously it'll make sure that after a lot of people buy this, you'll probably be like, yes, let's do this again. But do you think there will be opportunities to follow up this with answering more questions? - Want me to answer that? You want to answer that? - Okay, you answer. - Well, my thought in the beginning is-- (laughing) - Since I'm not the main writer, I think we should do a whole bunch of-- (laughing) - No, no, no, no, no, no. In all seriousness, I think that, I think the book will kick off, hopefully, a lot more curiosity and a lot more questions that people have. And I think that our networks between, you know, marine and ocean and atmosphere, I anticipate getting contacted by people saying, you should ask this or you should do this. And so hopefully the momentum of the book will just kind of drop the second volume in our laps. And we just have-- - Yeah, we'll say it, we'll say it. - We'll say it, we'll say it. - But the publisher will come back as you have to do a second one. (laughing) - It's my first book, her 21st. - Yeah, exactly. (laughing) - Yeah, after my last popular science book, I said, Dave, I was exhausted. I was like, it was a lot of work. I was like, if I ever say I'm gonna do another one of these books, smack me over the head. (laughing) And then it was like two months later, hey, I think I have this really good idea. (laughing) Dave's like, didn't you say like, I should like smack you if you-- - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - And she said, no, no, you're involved. And I said, okay, let's do it, now let's do it, I'm in, I'm in. - Well, I love it, I think this is great. And it's available for pre-s, coming out on October 2024, it's available for pre-sale right now. I'm gonna put the link to the Amazon link for everybody so that they can go buy. I highly recommend to buy this. I know I'm gonna be buying a few copies and giving them out to some people because I think it's really interesting. If you're, like, I would say if you're a teacher, if you're an educator and any kind of, so these are great to buy, not just one, but buy four students, give them away, share them with people because I think this is a book that's really, really necessary. I'm so happy that both of you wrote this book and answered these questions. I know it, definitely like, you look at that range, I always think, oh, kids need to learn about this, but here I am, a scientist of 45, turn about turn 46, being like, no, I gotta get this book, I gotta read this kind of stuff. I think this is definitely needed, as I mentioned, and I'm really happy that you all did decide to do this, and so thank you. Thank you for coming on and sharing this. The energy between you is awesome. I love having you on. Feel free to come back, you know, let us know how it goes and other projects as well. I'd love to chat with both of you again, so thank you so much. - Oh, thank you. - Well, thank you, yeah. - Thank for having us on. - We really appreciate it. - Thank you, Ellen, and thank you, Dave, for joining me on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast. The energy that these two bring to the table and to this podcast is electrifying. No pun intended, but it is electrifying. You know, you have to admit, if you've listened to that entire episode, and you listen to that interview, you realize you're like, wow, these people are quite entertaining, but they have the knowledge to help you get educated on a lot of these questions that people have. You yourself might have other people. You may not realize these questions and you need it to be answered, you need to know the answer to them maybe, and that's something that is really handy about this book. So with that said, I am going to put the link to this book which comes out in October, 2024, but you can pre-order it, and I highly recommend that you pre-order a couple because you wanna give some of these away, some of them maybe to some nieces and nephews, maybe you wanna give away to your kids, maybe you wanna give away to your grandkids, but if you have any child or anybody at any age who's curious about the ocean and the atmosphere, one or the other, or both, I think this book is for them. So I'm gonna recommend it to everybody to go out and buy that book. The link is in the show notes or in the comments below, depending if you're listening to this on YouTube or audio-wise or on Spotify, it doesn't matter. There's gonna be a link in there for you to pre-order. I highly recommend that you pre-order a couple, and hopefully there'll be more books coming out in the future. There is an audio book coming out too, and you're gonna love that as well. So lots of ways to purchase this. I can't wait for you to purchase this. Let me know what you think of the book and how excited you are for the book, and please review it. But this is gonna be one of those books that I feel is gonna be a resource for a lot of people in the future. So that's it for today's episode. If you wanna stay in touch, please follow, subscribe on your favorite podcast app and leave comments. I'd love to hear what you thought of the episode, whether you're on YouTube, Spotify, or if you wanna get a hold of me, you can do so by going to my Instagram at how to protect the ocean, all one word, and just DM me. Love to hear from you, and I wanna also thank Ellen and Dave for joining us as well, of course, and thank you for joining us on this episode of The How to Protect the Ocean Podcast. Have a great day, and we'll talk to you next time and happy conservation. (upbeat music) (keyboard clacking)
