(air whooshing) Our next in-person mastermind is coming up this fall and we're heading to Vegas. We're kicking off this mastermind with an in-person tour at Zappos downtown Las Vegas campus, where you'll learn their strategies behind company culture, core values, employee engagement, and customer service. Looking outside the legal industry for business concepts and strategies allows you to gain fresh perspectives and innovative solutions that can be applied to improve and differentiate your firm's operations. Following the tour are the mastermind hot seats. Every attendee has the opportunity to dive deep into their business obstacles with their mastermind group and coach. We believe that nothing beats working on your firm in-person. So join us in Las Vegas on November 7th and 8th. This is your chance to break through barriers, spark new ideas, and accelerate your law firm's success. Limited spots are available. Visit maxlawevents.com for full event details and to grab your ticket today. Run your law firm the right way. This is the Maximum Liar Podcast. Maximum Liar Podcast. Your hosts, Jim Hacking and Tyson Neutrecks. Let's partner up and maximize your firm. Welcome to the show. Welcome back to the Maximum Liar Podcast. I'm Jim Hacking. And I'm Tyson Neutrecks. What's up Jimbo? Tyson, looks like you're still on the road. We've been recording today. It's been a good day. How about you? Good. It's been a very productive day for me. So that's good. But yeah, I'm ready to get home. I can tell you that. But let's get started. So this is going to be a fun one. I was just thinking, I don't know if we've ever had a podcast where the guests were in the same room with each other. And can you think of one podcast we've ever done in eight years that the guests are in the same room? We haven't had two guests at once very often at all. So probably 10 or 20 times altogether. So no, I would say no. Yeah. So this will be a fun one. So let's get to our guests. This will be good. So we have George Campbell and we have Jordan Teague. And I'll give brief bios for each of you. And then we'll kind of get going to it. But Jordan is the firm's self professed nerd in the basement with a passion for merging law and technology to help our clients become more effective, efficient, and forward thinking. George is a veteran, trial lawyer, an international business manager and has worked for the last 15 years in the legal and financial sectors to obtain justice and drive value for local and global businesses. Over the last decade, George and Jordan have combined their experience to found Campbell Teague, a full service law firm, headquartered in Greenville, South Carolina, where our buddy Brooks is out there. And so that's pretty freaking awesome. I don't know if you know Brooks, but Brooks, Derek, but excellent. George and Jordan, welcome to the show. Thanks for having us. Glad to be here. So guys, tell us about your firm, how it got started, why you started it, and what you do. You looking at me? Yeah, go for it. Take the record. So we started this firm back in 2016. Jordan and I were in the same class at Furman University and went in different directions. She went to work for a national marketing agency. I went straight to law school at University of Georgia. And as happenstance, we were seated across from each other at a co-work space in Greenville called Open Works. And I think the poor guy running the co-work was trying to figure out where to put Jordan. And he said, "Oh, there's another lawyer here. You should sit next to him. You all will be friends." Little did he know that that was much anxiety inducing to her. And then we recognized each other from school and struck up a conversation but after a couple of months working next to each other and coffee conversations, we hatched a plan to stop working for the man and do our own thing because we realized we both looked at the legal industry in the same way. And I think a lot of that came from having worked outside of law and realizing that other businesses don't do things the way lawyers and law firms do. And there are a lot of good reasons for that. And that is part of our ethos that the legal industry is woefully behind, if not backwards, in the way they run their operations and serve their clients. So that's a little bit of the background we got into. It was just the two of us and then we began hiring lawyers, doing more cases. And we have a pretty broad range because of our unnatural range. Jordan and I are both litigators by training. She was in consumer financial protection and financial services litigation. I started as a prosecutor on the white collar team and was involved in all kinds of crazy cases. But we also thought that that litigation training made us better lawyers in the contract, mergers and acquisitions, regulatory, anything else. Because at the end of the day, the courtroom or the arbitration panel or whoever has the monopoly on decision making is where the rubber meets the road. And you can see now that we've got really a whole generation of lawyers who've never seen the inside of the courtroom working as an expensive outsource back office in these large, especially multinational law firms. And it's a problem because they don't know what they're drafting. They don't know what they're doing and they've never had to enforce any of their good ideas before a judge or a jury. So we have tried to be full service, but we really don't seek out a specific practice area or industry sector. We're not labored employment only doing management defense. We look at specific types of clients who are usually entrepreneurial or privately held businesses, and they value speed, efficiency and results over a big name, a fancy office and a high bill. So now that we've got about 10 attorneys scattered around in a pretty diverse practice area with clients from Australia to Abu Dhabi. Yeah, and the only thing I'll jump in and add, George mentioned that being seated next to the only other lawyer in the go-working space was anxiety inducing for me. So I'll correct the record a little bit. It wasn't anxiety inducing. I think I was just a little annoyed, and the reason I was a little annoyed is that I was going to that co-work space to escape other lawyers and the typical law firm vibe. And I think this is relevant to even why we decided to go into business together and start this firm. I'm also a developer. I've been coding ever since I was a little girl, probably since I was nine or ten years old. And so I thought, "Oh, this is awesome. I can practice law remotely for this other firm, but I can be with my people. You know, I can be sitting with all these other developers." And then, of course, I got seated across from the one other lawyer. And it obviously ended up being one of the best things that's ever happened for me. But that was where I was coming from, is I just -- I'm tired of the typical law firm energy and the typical lawyer personality that's very risk-averse, typically produces mediocre work product. And that's a whole other thing that we can get on. But so I was trying to escape that. And so that's where that was coming from. Yeah, that's an really interesting way that you all came together. I wonder in the process of actually making this official, what were some of your concerns? I want to -- and how did you all resolve those concerns? Because, I mean, you all were working by yourselves. I'm assuming you kind of wanted to work by yourselves. And then you all decided to kind of work together. So what were your reservations in getting together, and then how did you all work through those? I mean, I think a simple one is simply, are we going to get clients? Is this thing going to succeed? Or is it going to fall flat on our face? Or are we going to have to crawl right back to the big firms that we slam the door on? And I think that's obviously a really typical concern for any new business owner or entrepreneur trying to figure out, can I do it? And what most find when they finally take the leap is, it's much easier than you think. And if you're like us and you take things seriously, if you're even just the one that returns phone calls within 24 hours and you do what you say you're going to do, then you're already in the upper echelon of legal service providers, I think. So that was definitely a concern, but I think that quickly evaporated when we've been rolling for two or three months and we just saw the flywheel start spinning. Talk to us, if you could, about how it was easier than people think it's going to be. Because I think that's a real issue for a lot of people that are waiting on the sidelines to get in the game. I think that that's something people put a real mental block on. So talk to us about how it was easier for you than you thought it might be. I would say as a threshold matter, it's really, and I've seen this as an entrepreneur myself and representing entrepreneurs, you really have to know yourself if you're capable of being an entrepreneur. I think in the legal profession, there are three types of lawyers. There are the sort of crazy entrepreneurs like us who jump out and take the leap. There are the early adopters who are willing to go take a chance on a smaller firm or a growing firm, and then there are the sort of, "I must have big law attached to my name to feel secure." And it's very important for lawyers to know which one of those three are you by personality, because we have another classmate from school who's a very bright lawyer at a global firm who did an IPO for a public company, became their general counsel, was now in a sea level position in management for that company, and he's at a stellar career, and he looks at me and says, "I wish I could do what you do because you control your time." But I would go absolutely crazy out of fear if I tried to do that. It's not that he's not capable. He could have all the work he wanted, but the simple anxiety or the fear of being out alone on his own and not being within that large corporate structure is debilitating. So that would be my first thing to tell lawyers is know who you are and then look for that kind of environment, because if you have to be in big law to feel safe and to be productive, you probably need to find a better big law. Don't try to go out and launch your own firm. And then if you're even an early adopter, find a boutique, find some crazy people like us who already did the awful slogging through the startup phase, and have got some momentum where you can go in and add value and still participate in the building and the growing, but you don't have to take that first crazy leap. And then the last thing would be for the people who know themselves enough to know that they can absorb a nauseating amount of risk. They can sit and say, "I have no idea if we're going to make payroll next month, but I feel pretty good about it, so let's just keep working and see what happens." That's what it takes in the early days. And if you are that kind of person, I can tell you with 100% confidence that if all you do is return phone calls within 24 hours and be nice to people, you will have enough work to feed your family. And I don't care where you are in the country, the bar is really that low. And we talk about access to legal services across the country and why it's a problem and how expensive it is, but there's work to be done and there's demand out there for people who just want to do good work, and it doesn't matter what market you're in. Jordan, anything to add? I guess the only thing I'd add is, reading between the lines, I think what George is saying is, it was very difficult, but we were okay with it. Because we do kind of fit in that first category, which is, we would rather have the set of headaches and risks that come with entrepreneurship than we would being in a big firm. And so, yes, it was very difficult. We have worked our tails off. We've slogged through a lot of issues and business development, trying to figure out how do we onboard employees, how do we manage people. It's all very, very difficult, but I would not trade that for the set of problems that I'd have in a big firm. Yeah, control of your calendar is worth everything. I mean, that to me is, I'm willing to pay a very high price for that to be able to go home and eat dinner with my kids every night at 6.30, regardless of what's happening. So, I think it's all a matter of, there's no difference between price and sacrifice. Why do you get willing to give up to have something else? Yeah, let me ask you all about decision-making. So, when you have to make a tough decision, what is your old process? How do you all do that? Throw a dart. Okay, I have a different answer. Yeah, that's what George does. So, we are very serious about our core values, and we filter all major decisions through those. So, our core values are autonomy, ingenuity, fitness, and integrity. And in no particular order, I guess you could put integrity at the top of the stack, and hopefully everyone views that as table stakes, although we found not necessarily because lawyers are really good about being sneaky with definitions. And the thing is that integrity doesn't mean just not telling a why, right? It means so much more than that. It means doing the right thing, and it's painful to you. And so, that often is a filter we have to run through big decisions through, because it can be tempting to find the technicality where you're not telling a why, and you can kind of get out, you know, wiggle out of something pain-free. So, do you want to talk about the other core values and how they... Yeah, I think that's the whole point. I would just add to that that one of our earliest mentors told me that you have only one stock in this game as a lawyer, and that's your credibility. And everyone knows it takes a whole career to build it up, and two seconds to lose it. And the minute you lose it, you're worthless as a lawyer, especially in a courtroom. So, we take that dead serious. And along with our other core values of autonomy, we want people to be empowered to make decisions. We don't always completely defer, but we give serious weight to what other team members are saying, even staff members who aren't lawyers. We look at fitness very seriously, Jordan and I are both CrossFit junkies, but one thing you see across the legal profession is that we're unwell. We are mentally unhealthy, we are physically unhealthy, we are spiritually unhealthy, and that does not make for peak performance. So, we put a priority on the ability of our team to be not just physically fit, but mentally and spiritually sound as well. Because unless you're fully integrated as a person, you're not going to be able to serve your client in a knowledge industry. And the last one being ingenuity, which is we really look for a creative solution. And we refuse to just accept, well, it's always been done this way, so I guess that's what we got to do. Because that may not be in the best interest of the client. And a little bit of extra fitness and elbow grease and ingenuity can go a long way in finding a solution. And then I think maybe one other thing you're getting at if we have to make a tough decision as between the two of us as co-founders, that we do a lot of business disputes and shareholder disputes, what people call business divorce, and this can range from public companies to a mom and pop plumber in South Carolina. And open communication and integrity have gone a long way, that we've built enough trust over the last almost decade, I don't even have to ask Jordan to know what she's going to say for something. But because I always do, we have an unlimited amount of trust in each other, and a lot of times we just delegate, I just tell Jordan you handle this and she'll do it. And we know when to speak up if something's going to be a problem or if I've got a particular position on something. But I think a lot of people in a partnership situation try to avoid conflict because they've got enough conflict with their day-to-day work. But if you don't go ahead and address the problem or the conflict or disagreement or whatever it is, it's only going to come back worse later. So honest, early communication is the best thing you can do. And I've seen that across business not just in law firms as operating other companies where if you've got a problem with a vendor or supplier or customer, especially even say someone you owe money to as a business operator, the worst thing you can do to stop communicating, it only breeds problems. So I would say keeping that open line of communication and addressing everything had on and just coming to a resolution. But we've got 50-page operating agreement that we painstakingly drafted eight years ago and I don't even know where it is. We've never looked at it one time. Yeah, I guess one more point to add. We also like to think of things running through matrix of is this a reversible or an irreversible decision? Because obviously if it's an irreversible decision, we need to know. We need to give this decision thought from every angle. We need to both feel really good about it. If it's a reversible decision, then it's kind of just a cost-benefit analysis. And then that would be a situation where if it's not something that I really care about, I'm just going to say, "George, handle it." And whatever you're happy with, I'm happy with, or vice versa. So that's also a framework that we run everything through. Is this something that we can walk back easily or not? You guys mentioned team members and I'm wondering how has the firm grown and scaled and how is that part of you? Are you tired of the marketing guessing game? Does your website feel more like a digital billboard than a client magnet? If you're nodding along, you're not alone. 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To learn more about how Rise Up Media can transform your firms, visit RiseUpMedia.com/MaxLaw and Rise is spelled with a Z. RiseUpMedia.com/MaxLaw Experience been as easy as starting? No. Jordan and I got lucky in starting and this dovetails off of your last thing of difficult decisions. I cannot stress enough the importance of choosing your partners carefully. But that is so critical in every business, especially in our business. But as the firm has grown, it's also important. It's a little bit less important because at the end of the day, we make the decisions. But choosing the people you hire carefully is very, very important. I've made one mistake that I made early was trying to hire more revenue producers or lawyers, people who are billing, rather than hiring someone to just handle the administrative and operation stuff. Probably that was because I like doing operations. I enjoy it and it's fun. So, I was happy to go do that. But what I should have done was hire an operations person so that I could be billing at a premium, rather than having young associates or paralegals that I'm training. Because that's just inefficient. So, I would say, as anyone grows, the first thing you should do is find someone who can handle operations before you begin bringing on other lawyers. Because you've got to get your head out of paying the light bill and calling for the pest control guy and the janitor or whatever else you have in an office. Then the next thing will be, as we've grown, we've gone through different iterations. We're not the same firm we were in 2017. We're not the same firm we were last year. We've had a lot of stuff change just in the last year, which is for the better. But it kind of goes up and down and we had a global pandemic and kind of other things that have happened that have made it not a smooth transition. And we're also in a generational shift where everyone's talking about, everyone used to make fun of us millennials. I'm kind of the baby of Gen X and Jordan's, I guess, the true elder millennial. But now it's gone to Zoomers who really kind of don't want to work or have other priorities or different things. And so that's been very difficult as well. And we could get into this later or on a different day. But I think that you're going to see a problem with a lot of, we came on board where minimum buildings at big firms was 2,000 hours plus just to keep your job and too much of a grind. And now the pendulum swung too far the other way, where I'm genuinely worried that kids come out of law school in the last four years. Well, I've seen they're not prepared. They don't know how to write. They don't know how to articulate their thoughts. But they're not going to have the work experience to be able to have something to sell as they mature in their careers because they just didn't get enough reps in. They haven't played enough games. And it's because they're just not putting the time in. Mm-hmm, 100%. And back to your point earlier about delegating, especially things like operations, I think this can be counterintuitive for a lot of lawyers who self-selected into a profession where they're here to be the expert, right? They're here to know everything. They're here to produce the work product, the deliverables. I know even for me, we already talked about how I'm the nerd in the basement. You can just lot me in there for 14 hours with bread and water and I'll probably make something really great. And so it's a mindset shift if you're going to run a firm that can't be your only focus area anymore. You have to really learn that skill set of delegation. It's something that I have to work on daily. It doesn't come naturally to me. But if you're not willing to let go of even things that may seem small like operations or things like elements of casework, then you just can't grow because there's a cap on the number of hours in a day. And yeah, we've been able to raise our hourly rates pretty nicely over the years, especially with the areas of expertise we've developed. But there's a ceiling there too, right? So I think that's definitely a challenge a lot of lawyers have to overcome when they're trying to run a firm. I think it's really great. I can tell you I have a really great relationship. I think that's fantastic. It's absolutely necessary. It's funny because the successful firms either have a really good relationship like you or they don't talk at all, which is also a weird dynamic too, but they have some sort of intermediate area. But when it comes to the actual workload, who does what? Like what do you do and then Jordan, what do you do? What's the difference between the two when it comes to workload? So we actually have some similar interests, although we diverge in areas. So I'm heavily focused on emerging technologies. So that's AI, that's blockchain, crypto. That's almost all I do, although I sprinkle some litigation work in like we were talking about before we jumped on here and I'm still really passionate about that. That's how I cut my teeth as a young lawyer and I never want to stop doing it. So I would say I'm very heavy there and very strong there. What about yourself, George? Most of mine is focused around private equity and finance and business litigation. Whether that be international mergers and acquisitions or arbitration or other types of shareholder disputes or putting deals together. I like the puzzle piece of the litigation, the deal side, which is fun, but we're both technophiles, we love technology, we do a lot of work in crypto. And those kind of overlap and intersect, especially in that area. And then as it comes to the operations side, a lot of it depends on what we're dealing with and who just has time. We both have young kids and it's a matter of who's just available on deck to handle whatever comes up. But that's where it really, they can't stress enough, pick your partners wisely. It really pays off. Yeah, and that's really what I was getting at too. From an org chart standpoint, what's the workload when it comes to org chart? And if someone has a final say, who gets the final say? Yeah, so I think that a lot of firms structured like ours would have failed a long time ago. Because like we've been talking about, we really are great friends and we've never had a problem resolving. I mean, I can't even really think of a lot of disagreements that we've had. I think those probably actually happen more on client matters and my opinion on strategy and what we should do. But I think we've just been very fortunate that a trust that will continue to be that way, that we've been able to function. And there are a lot of things in life where it's that way. I mean, we're both married and my husband and I, we have to work through things. We have different opinions and we don't necessarily have a particular person that gets a bull vote. But I think that there's probably some unspoken rules about who maybe has a deeper knowledge and expertise in certain areas. Like, I think I probably defer to you on finance for instance. Yeah, I mean, I think that's, and I know we know it's more important to, because you have to get to know people. I know it's more important to Jordan and it is not as important to me, just whatever she wants to do. And I'm happy with that because a successful business and a successful business relationship is more important than dying on the hill of what color we're going to paint this wall. I mean, it's, it's, it's just not worth it. But I think Jordan's right. I mean, a lot of businesses can't handle that, that somebody's got to have a bull vote or somebody's got a decline. And, and you miss the benefit, if you do it that way, you miss the benefit of a consensus. And that goes back to the reversible, irreversible decision. And so if we look at something that's really an irreversible decision, it's important to get consensus. That's why you see the Supreme Court, when they can, they want to have a nine zero decision. And so I board boards of directors try to get a unanimous vote for everything they do. But yeah, okay, so I can think of an example. I wasn't thrilled about a vendor that you wanted to use. And so I'll, I'll keep this high level just, you know, to not throw anyone under the bus. But I said, okay, let's give them a try. Yeah, it was terrible, it was terrible to see. Yeah, and it didn't go well. But that's fine. You know what, it was a reversible decision. We just canceled the vendor agreement and, and now we're fine. So I think that's a pretty good example of where it wasn't that important to me to, to get this service in place. And it was important to the firm. I do understand that. And I'm glad that George pushed us towards, you know, looking for good vendors. But this particular one didn't work out. And it's okay. We moved on to get all of them at home. Yeah, we needed, we needed this particular service provider or tip particular service. We just picked the wrong provider. And so we got there in the end, I made the wrong decision on the front end. But hey, I mean, that's, that's okay. And I mean, not to be cheesy, but that really is how you grow and become a better leader and become a better business operator is by making those mistakes. So I don't think that either of us have regrets in that particular instance or in general. So, yeah. One of the other things we've seen while from one of the struggle with is letting go of like areas of running the firm or little, you know, parts of the job. What, what have you guys let go of to let other people grow into a position? We have got an amazing operations manager and being able to just cut out a lot of the day to day stuff that she can handle from payroll to administrative tasks, dealing with vendors to all the basic stuff that you don't have to be a lawyer to do. And a lot of people think that being an entrepreneur or being in business is being able to have your own little dictatorship and could not be further from the truth. If you want to be successful, you just want to show up four times a year and collect a check. That's, that's the end goal where you say, I'm a business owner. I don't have to deal with any of the operations in the business apart from my day job and I show up and the business is profitable because you've built a system. And you see this with small private companies, family health businesses, when they go to sell the business, there's nothing to sell because outside of these core people, there are no systems, there's no processes, there's no cash generating machine. So we're, we're not anywhere close yet, but our long term vision is what's something that we can create this going to outlast us. It's going to have its own ethos of generating value. And then if we've done that, then regardless of whether we're here or not, or whether we're operating or running the business or not, it will still continue to be successful. And I think larger firms tend to do better at that, probably just because of size and therefore it's harder for one key man or key woman to be so key. I think that boutiques, if you can call us that have a harder time. And so I think that's kind of our uphill challenge, but one that we're really excited about is how can we do this with a smaller firm? Yeah, so to put a bow on your question, we've got the operations piece fairly well sorted. And now we're looking for the sort of technical expertise of other lawyers as we're hiring and training lawyers so that we can spend more of our time advising and mentoring and helping clients where needed and have the necessary legal expertise to run those practice areas or run the firm as needed. Nice, I like it. I got to say for having the two of you on here, it's actually much easier when you are in the same room. That's what we thought. Yeah, because sometimes what you'll have is you'll have two people and they're on different rooms and they're kind of talking to each other. So it actually worked out pretty well, so this is pretty good. We are going to wrap things up because we are, I think we're kind of over time, but it's fine. I've enjoyed the conversation, so it's good. Before I do to wrap things up, if people want to reach out to you all, let's say they have a case to refer you out in South Carolina or something like that, how do they reach out to you all? Our website, CampbellT.com, that's Campbell like the soup and Teague, like League, but with the tea. I've had to do that a time or two before. Yeah, hit us up on the website. You can find both of us on X or on LinkedIn. We try and deal with matters globally and litigate around the country, Texas. So we've been to Texas, Arkansas, Massachusetts, Illinois, Virginia, Florida. I mean, you name it, we'll go anywhere we'll travel. We're based in South Carolina with little satellites in Chicago and D.C. in New York, but we've got a broad range of states we're admitted to. And if anybody has a complex issue they need help on, we'd be happy to dive in and support. Sweet, love it. All right, so we are going to wrap things up before I do. We're going to join us in the big Facebook group. We would love to have you. Just search maximum lawyer on Facebook and you'll find us. Also, if you want to join us in the guild, we'd love it. We have our quarterly masterminds, four times a year, obviously, quarterly. The next one coming up is Vegas. This should come out before Vegas, I think, so we're pretty excited about that. First I'm going to Vegas. If you want to join us there, go to maxlaw@guild.com. And if you've got something from this episode, which hopefully you did because there's a lot of great content, then we love it. If you gave us a five-star review, it really does help us spread the love, so we'd really appreciate it. Now let's get to our tips and hacks of the week. So George, hopefully you've got yours ready to go. Jimmy, what's your hack of the week? This will be ironic since you're the pilot, not me, but it's new for me. It's a website that I found that I really have gotten addicted to when traveling. And it's called flightaware.com. You can put in your flight number and it'll tell you where your plane is, what kind of plane it is. It's more detailed than you'd ever want, but it's great because the airlines a lot of times won't really tell you what's going on for reels. So I like checking out when, especially if there's any kind of delay, then I jump on that thing, trying to figure out is it a crew thing? Is it a plane thing? If it's mechanical, then I'm probably just going ahead and starting to re-book a new flight. And I love it. So I was looking up. I want to show you a different app. Flightaware is fantastic. It's a really good app and it's free. I use something called ForeFlight, which you got to pay for. I don't know if they have a free one, but I think it's funny. Basically, when I'm on the flight, I'll put it up on the chair. They got behind the seat. You can put the phone on there. And it's got synthetic vision where, let's say, you couldn't see. You could actually see where you're flying. So when you're in an airplane like that, you can't see what's going on. But I'll put it on there. People will be like, "What's he doing?" You can actually see where we're flying. You can see the ground coming in. It's actually really cool. Anyone that's got ForeFlight, you know what I'm talking about, it's a really cool thing. But yeah, Flightaware is really cool. I use it all the time. If I see a plane, I want to know who's flying it or whatever. It'll actually show me the call number and everything. Flightaware is great. I like that a lot. You got me on a topic where I'll geek out on it. I like it. All right, George and Jordan, we always, as you know, we have Tim and Heck, so what you got? Yeah, I'm an instrumentated pilot as well, but a Garmin fanboy. So I may have to give ForeFlight a second look to see if I can use it. The one I would do is, I think this was hot, but not as, is not given enough attention as using a password manager. I'm a big fan of one password and the close runner up to that would be Proton Pass from the Proton guys in Switzerland. Using a password manager just changes your life. It absolutely makes everything so much easier and your ability to keep yourself safe in a crazy world out there. So that would be my tip of the week is get a password manager, preferably one password or Proton Pass, and stay safe out there. Okay, my tip is for lawyers trying to advise their client and make a decision. So sometimes a client will come and say, you know, what should I do? And lawyers like to just blow V8 on and write 12 paragraph emails and ramble on for 30 minutes on the phone. Don't do that. What you're going to do instead is you're going to make a pros and cons chart. And this is going to force both you and the client to actually reduce down to writing what the real options are so that no one is illusioned by the idea that maybe there's some secret option D that, you know, isn't on paper. So you'll write down the real options, pros, cons. You'll jump on a five minute call and you'll make a decision. Okay. That's good. I've got a client that's supposed to give me an answer by five o'clock about an offer, whether she's going to accept her, take the case trial. So I may do that with her. Yeah, exactly. We got an hour and 20 minutes. That's great. So for me, what we've got, what we did this last weekend is we called our associate boot camp where we put our attorneys through it and I talked a little bit about in the guild, but it's something where we, it's essentially a training. We put them through a boot camp, but we went through a lot of topics and they spent the entire Saturday with me and it was, it was a lot of fun and they were really engaged and everything. But if anyone's got staff or attorneys that you need to get up to speed. And like we recorded all of this, we basically have a, now we have a training program that we have, that we have put together for our attorneys, but so we can replicate it, but it's, I highly recommend it for everybody because you can get people up to speed very, very quickly. And then if they've got questions, they can, they can ask during it, obviously, but then they can go back to the videos and, and look at the slides and, and answer all the questions that they have. So for anyone that's, that's not doing that, I do recommend it, especially if you, if you're trying to get people up to speed. And I know it's really difficult sometimes whenever you're busy doing other things, but you will save yourself a ton of time by doing it. All right. That is all I have. George and Jordan, thank you so much for coming out. Really appreciate it. Enjoy talking to you all. Thanks guys. That was great. Likewise. Thank you so much for the invitation. Yeah. Thanks, guys. I'm Jordan. 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