The Jordan Syatt Podcast

Fatherhood, Body Image, The Dark Side of Fitness, Detecting Lies, and More with Dan Osman

In this episode of The Jordan Syatt Mini-Podcast, I speak with my dear friend, Dan Osman (IG: @the.dan.osman) and we speak about:
- Fatherhood

- Body Image

- Detecting Lies

- The Dark Side of The Fitness Industry

- Disordered Eating

- And more...
I hope you enjoy this episode and, if you do, please leave a review on iTunes and Spotify (huge thank you to everyone who has written one so far).
Finally, if you've been thinking about joining The Inner Circle but haven't yet... we have hundreds of home and bodyweight workouts for you and you can get them all here: https://www.sfinnercircle.com/

Duration:: 1h 12m
Broadcast on:: 08 Sep 2024
Audio Format:: aac

What's up, Dan Osman. We're, dude, we're recording, just so you know. - All right, that's okay. How are you? - Man, I'm sorry I'm late. I was just on an inter-circle live and it went late, so I apologize, but man, I wish you, I'm really excited because I'm gonna do, I'm gonna do in-person podcasts when we get the new house and everything. And the reason I'm saying this is because I don't really publish the videos of this and I just, I wish people could see how handsome you are. Dude, you look, you are so good looking, it's insane. You've got like that perfect jawline symmetrical face, like, jeez, dude, you've got those jack shoulders. My lord, you are a good looking human. How are you, bro? - I'm deeply embarrassed right now. (laughing) But apart from that, I'm doing well, I'm doing really well. So no, I can stick these on then, no one's gonna see me. No one's gonna see, no, no one's gonna see that what you're wearing. Dude, are those, what, is that a blue blocker? Is that what that is? - They are, I'm taking my sleep game seriously these days. - Does that, how long have you been wearing those? - Six months or so? - Have you noticed the difference? Be honest. - If I have this placebo. - Okay, so what's the difference that you've noticed? - I know, I just go, 'cause I normally work or I'm in front of a screen until quite late in the evening, I'd go off like a light. But then I'm pretty shattered all of the time. Sorry, shattered to UK term, extremely tired. - I don't know, I'll still Americans, we get it. We know what that means. (laughing) - I'm gonna take my music anyway. I'm gonna try it tonight. - Wait, so, all right, so for everyone who can't see, it's like a glasses, but they look orange over your face. And so, not the most appealing. I was gonna say Robbie Downey Jr. - Oh yeah. - Okay, it'd probably be comparable to Jimmy Savile, which is not a comparison that you want. (laughing) - If anyone is familiar with Jimmy Savile. - Dude, can you tell everyone who you are? Can you just introduce yourself? Who are you? Where are you from? What do you do? You're one of my favorite people in the world. Just give some insight into who you are and what do you do? And obviously, you're from the UK, but I'm just gonna shut up and let you talk. - No, I'm my least favorite subject, so I probably something like this as brief as possible. - No, keep it. - You mean don't do that, don't do that. - These days, I describe myself as like more of a health mongrel or a source. - Okay. - Because I do such a mix of things. And I think specializing in various different fields over the years, I'm more now proudly a generalist. I started off as a typical level two, which is what we have over here. Health and fitness instructor in gyms, wiping sweat off, demonstrating exercises. It's actually exercise instruction, essentially, to begin with, I did personal training whilst I was at university, had aspirations on working in professional sport. So in the UK, which I guess is comparable to that NCAA, you've got over there, there's a UK museum. - Oh, yeah, yeah. - Over here, that's UK strength edition is association. And I did lots of voluntary work with professional and amateur athletes. I worked for Saracens Rugby Club when I came out of university. We work with something, which Americans, you take, you have the lead, we follow suit with supporting collegiate athletes. So we have something over here called the talented athletes scholarship scheme. - Okay. - So athletes are in higher education, whether it be question sports, diving sports, football, or soccer, rugby, whatever it may be, get a certain amount of funding for the strength and conditioning services as part of that, emphasis on therapy. So I've worked with a real diverse range of people, as well as working with my PT hours, personal training hours when I was at university. And it's just kind of evolved into what I do now, which is a bit of consultancy work. I do the writing work. I do some corporate wellbeing stuff. I've been a performance nutritionist for MMA athletes and boxers over the years. So I don't really know what I do, man. I just do a bit of everything. And somehow managed to support the lifestyle that I'd like. And I love my job. It sounds very cheesy and cliche to say, but gives me the opportunity to connect with people like yourself. I feel like we're a kindred spirit, man. It's such a shame. There's such a difference, distance between us. - I know. I need to bring you and the whole family out to Dallas. And when the house was built, I want all of you to come out and stay with us. I feel like it would be so much fun. - Well, we would absolutely love that. How is everything you're in? 'Cause where is the house now? 'Cause when is baby two, Joe? - Baby two is due, Biz Ratsu Shem, in like two months from tomorrow as a recording this. So today is June 17th. So she's due August 18th. And my wife's birthday is August 16th. My first daughter's birthday is August 27th. And our anniversary is August 11th. So I'm bought. (laughing) - It's expensive. It's expensive as well. How is your wife and your kids? - Yeah, they're all really well. Thank you. Yeah, my oldest Mila, she's seven now. They're both July babies. So she's gonna be eight next month. And Jack's, my youngest. He's a boy in every sense of the word. And it was, it was like baptism into parenting all over again. I was like, what, can I swear? - Yeah, dude, are you kidding me? Do you know anything about me? Come on. - I was like, what the fuck is this? This isn't what it was like with the first one. She's very calm, very placid, like more emotionally intelligent than most adults. I'm happy to sit there, color. She's creative. Jack's, he's just feral. And love him. He's just discovered his new favorite toy, which I haven't the heart to tell him that every boy's favorite toy stays their favorite toy forever. He's just never appropriate times or less appropriate times when you can get it out and play with it. So funny. - Oh, yeah, he's coming out with his little catchphrase. He's hilarious, but he's a handful. - How old is he now? - He's gonna be three. So he's climbing windowsills, sitting on the windowsill like a cat. Stick, well, very nearly three weeks ago, I managed to catch him. Don't even know where he got the car keys from. 'Cause they've been-- - Oh my gosh. - Very nearly put them in a plug socket. So he's a constant worry. And he gets a kick out of genuine fear, not the full sphere that you do as parents. Like he makes a B line for the road because he knows-- - Nah. - And he gets like the pleasure on his face that he gets from terrifying us. - Dude, no, this was, I feel like, this was all part of Tom Soguro's standup. Where are you? - Where's he goes? They are, I don't know whether it's a second child thing or maybe it's one of those subconscious thing your brain does to protect you. Like maybe Mila was like this and my brain just made me forget. - No, no, you do not. - But I don't remember being this anxious all of the time. I'm quite tightly around him. - Oh my gosh, that's, he stuck the car keys in a-- - Very nearly, very nearly, yeah. - That's terrifying. Oh, do you have like the plugs in them? - Yeah, we do, we do. Yeah, he needs to pop that out as well. (laughing) - He's a man. - He's a man. - Yeah, he is. And he makes eye contact, dead eye contact, whilst he does the thing that he knows you don't want him to do. I was working indoors the other day and he was staring at me, walking quietly across the room, looked at the plug socket where the router was and switched the wire file for him to work him. To get a rise out of me, like anything to get a rise out of his parents. - What do you do? Like, what do you get, when you get, I'm assuming you get mad but like, what is your mad? Like, what is your, when you become the enforcer, what does that look like? - I'm not a shelter. I'm a, I guess, an elder millennial parent. I try the quietly thing but, you know, I'm human. I lose my calls sometimes. But yeah, we're trying to get him into a habit of talking about it 'cause he can speak now. So use your words, don't shout, don't throw tantrums 'cause he likes a tantrum as well. But yeah, he's, certain phrases he comes out with that are hilarious. I, you know, as a parent, you chuckle to yourself but you can't let them say that. - Yeah, yeah, of course. - So he said to me last week, "None night penis." That's how he said, "Good night to me." (laughing) And I just had to pretend, pretend I didn't hear. (laughing) - Night, night penis. - My rose with my wife. She quite often says, "For Christ's sake." But he's dropped the Christ and he just has sake. So we had to speak to his nursery and explain, "We're not at home screaming fuck's sake." He's just, he's decided to drop the Christ. (laughing) Yeah, he's hilarious. He really is. But I worry at the same time. - Do him and Mila get along? - They do, like they're both very affectionate with each other but he has a habit of taking his frustrations out on his, but put it this way. If there's anyone growing, it's always Mila. (laughing) Yeah. 'Cause if he needs calls and attention, so he's like, "Pull her hell." Or he'll just give us a slap and then walk off just to get a rise out of her. - Does she retaliate at all or she just cries? - No, she's very sweet, very calm. I say calm until she's in tears. But no, she just comes for cuddles. - Oh man, that's so funny. I love that. - And you've got it, you've got number two on the way and puppy, but puppy's no longer a puppy. How old is your puppy now? - He's like five months, he's about five months and he's gaining like three to five pounds every week. So trying to think, you know, kilograms. Do you know pounds or no? I can't convert that again. - So you're 2.2 pounds per kilogram. - Yeah, so he went from 12 pounds, so like six kilos-ish to now he's like 50 pounds in like three months. It's insane. And he is, dude, having a puppy is harder than having, 'cause my first born as a daughter as well. She's been so easy. And like, yeah, obviously she has her moments. Like it's, but a puppy is, has been way harder than having. - A baby running around without napping. - Yeah, dude, oh my gosh. And then having them together has been a real, it's a force to be reckoned with. 'Cause, you know, puppies are nippy no matter what. So it's like, I don't want him nipping her. And so then I'm like, it's just constantly washing. He's gotten much better, especially the last probably six to eight weeks. He's fully potty trained now. So that's amazing. And he's like, he's lost most of his baby teeth. So he's not nipping as much. Have you ever had a puppy nippy with their baby teeth? - Yeah, I've got a cockerspaniel. She's, we got her six months before Mila was born. So she's had-- - Wow, you did that too. You did the same thing. - Yeah, she's had both of them pulling her ears, trying to sit on her and she's very tolerant. But at the same time, they're animals. So, you know, when she was much smaller, I wouldn't have left her in the room. As much as I trust Daisy now, like she's one of her family, she's nearly nine. They're still-- - Yeah. - And you're still worrying about that, of course you do. - Yeah, of course. So, yeah, man, everything here is good where the house is a real, I mean, it's coming along. It's great, but dude, I wouldn't wish building a house on my worst enemy. It's so bad dude. Yeah, it's just, it's insane. Like multiple times my wife and I have been like, why did we do this? We should have just bought a house that's already built. But we're excited about it. I'm excited for many reasons, not least of which one thing I really wanna switch to is in-person podcast. So literally have people fly to me, sit down, and like do the whole in-person, sit down conversation, and then also put it on YouTube as well. But yeah, super excited about that. Dude, tell me, you were saying you've worked with many different populations of people. Who is your least favorite to work with? What is your least favorite population of people to work with? - Physic athletes, probably. - Okay, why? Tell me. - I think I, my entry into the fitness industry, I think was a bit of more of an unconventional one. It was kind of more the academic route, I think, because I went through the performance route first. So when I kind of came into the UK mainstream health and fitness industry, and it was very aesthetics-focused, I found that a little peculiar in your go-long to expose, and people would be heavily tan, walking around with the tops off, sunglasses on indoors, and yeah, like, you know, perhaps a lot of ego and things, but you know, 'cause that was my pursuit as well, and having been a much larger child, you know, my body image was something that took up a lot of head space when I was much younger, so almost as part of that acceptance into the health and fitness space is I tried to emulate that in some way, and also professionally, I think, a lot of the voices I looked up to at that time, they had gotten the physique compared to the room, they'd done the photo shoots, and I thought, "Well, naturally, that must come with the turf." And I got into the realms of coaching people, after I'd done a good few competitions as well, and my values has always been health, first and foremost, as a coach, and it reaches a certain point with physique athletes, where it is by definition unhealthy, there's a lot of disordered behaviours around it, and probably some of that on reflection now, I probably missed when I was in the midst of it myself, you know, preparing your meticulously, prepping your food until midnight every night, to the gram, living out of Tupperweil, eating food that was like four days old, ostracised, no something from social occasions, just generally not having any quality of life outside of training, and just this being your focal point. So, I say I had it, I think I had that inner turmoil for a little while, about perhaps seeing the less helpful practices come out and play with the people I was working with, as much as I tried to ethically navigate that as much as possible, based on some of my experiences, where they'd kind of go do their own thing, where it'd be, you'd recommend a certain amount of calories, and then you'd find out they'd slash that, or they'd been doing excessive amounts of cardio, and you'd see their mental health suffer, and none of that made me feel good about myself from a coaching standpoint, and it was actually, I guess, the straw that broke the camel's back, was there was one woman in particular, I was working with, I've been coaching her for three years, and taking her through various competitions, we kind of decided this, European competition was gonna be her last one, and then she got an invite to the Worlds, and said, like, obviously I will support you, but my professional recommendation is that you probably don't go ahead with this, and she continued to, I watched her decline, quite drastically, very difficult conversations, and then it came out a later date that she had a history about Erexia, her sister and her mother also had eating disorders, which obviously at the time, you can only base it on the information presented from a coaching perspective, that would have been red flag, straight away, hereditary factors involved with that, and some of the practices that she may have done in the past, so I would have never recommended she go down the physique route, and yeah, I just kind of thought that's, not necessarily baggage, but I think that's just too much for my conscience, I mean, the business to make people feel better, to empower them to make better decisions, and I didn't think that was serving them physically or mentally. - Yeah, it's a great point, it's one of those things where, after a certain point when you're working with these physique competitors, you really have to ask yourself, as they get older, and maybe their life ends sooner, or maybe who knows what damage is being done to them, is this gonna be something that you regret having, essentially enabled them to do? Like, is ignoring these negative or dangerous behaviors, ignoring these dangerous habits something that you're gonna be able to live with, and is it something that like, if something bad happens to them, you're gonna be able to be to justify in your head, does it something you even want to justify? It's scary, it's very scary stuff. - I don't use the perfect word there, and I have to say, from an accountability, and responsibility standpoint, I do reflect on health and fitness coaches, or performance nutritionists, whatever you may be within the health and fitness spaces, we are kind of enablers to a certain degree, and I'm very conscious about the aspects of health that we glorify, because it typically revolves around single digit body fat levels, ripped abs, three, six or five voluptuous glutes, and that's just not representative of the health spectrum, you're thinking about social connection in there, mental health, physical health, just someone's feelings of wellbeing, their mood, and all these other factors to consider, and I just don't feel like it's conducive to that, and I'm not sure many people, and this is no slight on bodybuilding, by the way, you know, I can admire it as a sport, for a purpose, but it's almost the only sport on the planet where we accept people get worse, because they get it. You look at all the other performance markers, and it's whether it's a team sport, it's like, however, it's got more points, or it's a power lifter, they're peaking for this one day, whereas that person is arguably stumbling onto the stage, feeling physically at their lowest, mentally at their lowest, and we applaud it, we encourage it, and we enable it, you know, we look at social media, and what's perpetuated, and what we applaud, and what we give lots of credit to, and who we put on a pedestal as well. - Dude, you see any athlete as they're leading up to a competition, if their preparation is going well, then they're talking about how great they feel. Oh yeah, my performance is really good, I've been improving my strength, my speed is great, like I'm the best I've ever been bodybuilders and physique competitors. If you ask them how their workouts are going, they're like, oh, I'm exhausted, I'm so tired. Like it's, in terms of what is improving, and improving in quotes would be their physique, but ironically, their physique looks more elite, the worse they feel, and the more deprived they become, and the worse their performance gets. It is really the only sport, and I do consider it a sport, it is the only sport that your performance in your health definitively declines, the better you get at it. Any other sport, your performance improves, and I would say different markers of health, we could compare different markers of health, like for example, here in the United States, like baseball, for example, I don't know if there's like 160 games in the season or something, but there's no question that throwing a baseball that over and over and over and over again is not good for your shoulder. There's no question that being on the road for that long every year is not good for your overall health in terms of your family health, your community health, like there are definitely health factors associated with it, but purely from the sport perspective and exercise perspective, when you compete in a sport, except for bodybuilding or physique, you're getting better. And it's really a unique insight into what that means for people who decide to go down that route, and for the consumer who looks at that and assumes that is health or that is that, is that really what you want to achieve? 'Cause I don't think you know what that's gonna take. - And that's so glorified, I think. You look at how health and fetish is represented in magazines, on social media, wherever it may be, it's clearly defined by look, but you've got no insight into the health markers, those people. You don't know what their blood glucose levels are, what their whole modal function is, like how their mental health is doing. We don't know any of those factors. We make a bunch of assumptions based on how they look. - Mm-hmm. You know what's interesting? I'd like your thoughts on this. As I'm thinking about this so much of what we do, we will separate it into men and women. And when I'm thinking about the female side of the fitness industry, I feel like they've come a, they're moving more quickly in terms of body acceptance than the male side. So for example, all over magazines, they're like women's magazines. We see women's of all shapes and sizes and body acceptance, knowing that it's not just about being as skinny as possible. Have you seen any men in magazines that like, in like fitness magazines that are not shredded or jacked and likely on steroids? I haven't seen any of that. - I haven't, I haven't in honesty. I don't know whether it's just, I'm speaking broadly, women tend to be more empathetic and compassionate, more understanding when it comes to that side of things. Whereas I think, you know, with the masculinity construct and certain people's view of it, to complain that there isn't enough representation out there would almost be like a beta complaint. So I think even though a lot of men are thinking it, they perhaps aren't saying it. This idea of threatened masculinity, like obviously feminism has come a long way in terms of equal opportunities for women. And I think there's a certain population of men that feel like they almost have to be more emboldened with that masculinity and have to be body in some way. And that means doubling down on the being huge, muscular, looking a certain way. Because I find with body image as well with men, it tends to be, it's kind of like a linear thing, isn't it? You look at Action Man from the 1960s. So now he's just progressively got more jacked. - Yes. - So in terms of like body ideals and what most cultures would accept as visually attractive, you know, men, it's more predictable, I think without question of a doubt, women have been scrutinized about their bodies for we're not even gonna have that discussion. It's not even a proposal. But I feel like men are certainly getting their fair dose now, but for women, it's, I'm not even gonna say evolving. It's forever changing. - Yeah, yeah. - Because we look at 90s Kate Moss and, you know, skinny idea, I guess, to more curvaceous figures, to as you say, like the more body positivity and movement. And yeah, I mean, it must be incredibly stressful as a woman to try and keep up with what's accepted. - Yeah, it's very interesting. It's very, it's so funny too, just because, you know, I've been in this industry almost 20 years now and watching it, it's changing all the time. Like it really is. The industry is all over the place. Let me see this. - I mentioned earlier that you grew up with bad body image and you were much bigger. Can you talk to me about that? Like, what was, what happened? - Yeah, so my background, I guess, is all my family in Northern separate. So Mediterranean thing, I guess, is kind of a bit of a culture thing. Food always is an incredibly huge part of life, you know, socially, in terms of love, connection and happy side. And I think, you know, I went through various things that I had that deeply on the deal of on the podcast, through my childhood. And I think food became more of an emotional crutch for me. It became a way to soothe, to comfort me, something very familiar. And that lends itself to being quite a heavy child. Not my, I guess, no, my most standards, I think, quite heavy, but I think that snowballed somewhat 'cause if you're in a larger body, you know you're in a larger body, but no one needs to tell you that. (both laughing) But on the cusp of finishing what we had at primary school, which is what would be the equivalent be a primary school? - How old are you in primary school? - Up until 11, before we called it secondary school, you called it high school. - Up until 11 is elementary school. - Elementary school. - And then you have middle school, then you have high school. - That's right. So just as I'm going to middle school and high school, and, you know, you're finding your place in the world, I think all teenagers struggle with their identity. - Yep. - It became apparent to me that others also noticed how I looked and that became a big focal point. - Were they like bullying you? - Yeah, yeah, I got teased quite a lot and actually a lot of the cautious of the word and I'm very cognizant, it's probably the most apt use of it. I was subject to quite a lot of abuse at home as well. I spoke to you privately about my lack of a father model or quite an abusive one. And yeah, I think that just made me seek comfort more so and it wasn't back in the day, I guess you could probably go to your high school phys ed teacher these days and maybe have conversations about not doing wanting to do skins versus shirts or. I don't know whether you could, but, you know, back then you certainly couldn't. So I was always the child with an excuse not to get involved in sports, just because I was so ashamed of how I looked and no matter how much I tried to conceal that. And I'm trying to think of the conversion, but I guess my first experience of an authoritative figure that solidified that in my mind for me is I went to the doctors when I was 15, ingrained to announce, overshare here. And the moment I stepped in that office, the doctor said to me, jump on the scales and to quote her verbatim, she said, you are fat, you need to lose weight. - Dap. - So that kind of stuck with me 'cause that was this authority figure, this impartial party that wasn't just going out of a way and just being mean as you would kind of suggest most other children would be. And that made it, yeah, that funnily enough, they didn't really warn me to exercise and taking care of my nutrition. - Shocking. - Yeah, so yeah, I guess the latter part of my teens, it was, I wasn't necessarily in the wrong crowd, but kind of getting up to mischief, smoking a bit of weed, bunking off of college. And I just realized the circle I was in just really wasn't serving me. This wasn't the sort of life that I wanted to leave. This wasn't the sort of environment that I was gonna support the identity I wanted to get to create for myself or a version of that. And I just totally ostracized myself for most of my friends at that time and I'd go running every night, I'd be down the gym all the time. And you know, my focus probably shifted the other way. If I reflect back on my university days, a lot of people, for the first time I was visible or at least visible for the right reasons. And I guess that came with a lot of their vector attention that never really had before. But I was also running five days a week. I was lifting weights three times a week. I was going to keep boxing a university a few times a week as well. I was cycling it all around the campuses. And I wasn't eating a great deal of food. And I developed a bit of a binge eating habit. - Did you? - Yeah, yeah. So I gave like periods of sometimes a couple of months and then it would just be to the point where I couldn't physically eat or I'd make myself ill. And I got into a bit of an unhealthy rut of purging through exercise. I never physically purged or I'm causing it myself, but it got to the point where I had fruit over the evening and I felt guilty like I had to burn off that fruit. And it took me a long time to kind of find whatever the equilibrium was in between. So I've kind of experienced all walks as well as worked with all walks, which yeah, is an interesting one. I think it's given me a unique insight maybe into empathy and having a personal understanding where people's situations have been. I think that the populations I've worked with from the super compliant athletes, which will do exactly what you tell them to the totally uninspired, unmotivated, general population person that the hardest part of their day is stepping foot in the gym. And probably is a much younger man. I really couldn't understand that. And you know, that's where you have to create some empathy because you are limited by your real-world experiences. - Are you in any way still impacted with a negative relationship with food or exercise? Like does any of that carry over into today at all? Is there anything you still struggle with? Sort of like the way I think about it is someone is struggling with alcoholism and they go to Alcoholics Anonymous. Maybe they've been sober for 20 years. They still say, hey, my name is so-and-so I'm an alcoholic. I think oftentimes with disordered eating habits or disordered exercise habits, even if you like, once you have them, you always like, it's there. Like you might have gotten over it and you might have improved. Does any of that still impact you to this day? - I think that's a very fair question because I totally agree with what you're saying there. And I think a lot of those disordered habits lent themselves very well to when I first stepped into the health and fitness issues we know it now because they were great tools that made me great at losing body fat and building muscle because I could be that extreme with things. And it took me years to get past that. And when I say I've got past that, I think it's almost like when people refer to the inner critic, it's not necessarily that we want to rid ourselves of that because it's highly unlikely. I've spent most of my life developing that little inner critic. It's just I'm more attuned with it now that I can pause and reflect and turn the volume down on that. So I do know certain practices which can be a slippery slope. So I have, for example, I haven't calorie down to three years because I can hone in on that. I can like that something that is not and even actually Brazilian Jiu Jitsu now, I have to be a lot more mindful because competition in my mind makes it something else. So I'm a BJJ enthusiast, I'm a hobbyist. - You're a brown belt, right? - Yeah, you're amazing, you're a very good Jiu Jitsu. - Thank you. But I find competition, it makes it something else. Then something I feel compelled to do, not I do because I want to. I feel guilty for skipping sessions. I have to be a bit more anal with my nutrition and things like that. So it's something I'm very conscious of and I'm aware of things that can lead me down that line. So I'm not gonna say I'm totally written, I don't have lapses, now. Like anyone, I overeat, of course I do, but not the can't control it. What I would have typically, or what I'd associate with binge eating now, which is not that gradual hunger that most people experience. I would call that general and genuine physical hunger is that immediate, right, I don't like what I'm experiencing right now, but I know exactly what's gonna make me feel better, even if it doesn't make me feel better tomorrow. And that's what it would have been like, it's almost like a blackout, just as much food as possible, as quickly as possible. - Yeah, people ask me very frequently, I'm sure you get it as well. People ask me to differentiate between overeating and binge eating. And you know, if you really want to get into it, there's a big checklist of different things that if you really want to get into, well, is this binge eating? But I think the easiest way to understand it is overeating is just like you're eating, maybe you're eating and you're not hungry, but like you're, you're snacking, whatever. It's not like a compulsion. It's not like a, it's not like you're unable to stop. Whereas with binge eating, you will eat to the point of severe discomfort and eat and eat and eat and eat. And as you're eating, there's this like in your mind, you're like, I don't want to be doing this, I shouldn't be doing this. But it feels as though you can't stop putting that food in your mouth. And there's like almost an anxiety and there's pain and there, it's, it's agonizing. It's not your standard going out to a Mexican restaurant eating more chips than you wanted to. That's, that's overeating. There's a big difference. Yeah, and I think most people associate overeating or at least with enjoyment. Yeah. In leaders will almost describe it as a, a disassociative state that you're in, mindlessly eating with that loud inner critic in your ear. And then the shame and the guilt the day's after and after. But more than it's just, it's not about the incidents per se. It's the, I'm not just eating bad food or I hate too much food. It's the belief that this inherently makes me a terrible person. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. I'm very conscious of moralizing terminology around food when I speak to clients now. So I, you know, I'm not the sort of guy that's going to correct people, but I won't, I guess, reinforce the idea when people say good and bad foods. Mm hmm. I've subtly maybe say less favorable or more favorable, but I try not to fall into, 'cause people want to be inherently good. We want, we want to believe we're good people. And I think when we label things as bad, especially cheat days, like no one's encouraging you to cheat on your partner or cheat your test. Yeah. But then we, we call things like cheat days and we expect not to feel guilty for them. Yeah. It's funny. I was searching for a long time to try and find words that went really well with like rather than good or bad. And for me, I found it's like more nutritious or less nutritious. Like it works really well. It's like, it's very, it's to the point, it's fact-based. It's like, and sometimes I'll tell clients, I want you to eat something less nutritious today just because you enjoy it. That's it. Not a bad food, not just like, just something you eat. I don't know, fucking chocolate. Maybe it's not as nutritious, but it tastes great. Like, and that one has worked really, really well. You were talking about empathy. And that is something I think is so important as a coach. And I think you can see this importance in so many different aspects of life. We haven't got the reputation as the most empathetic bunch. Unfortunately, and, you know, I really wonder what way we're going with it because on one hand, I think social media helps a lot because we're seeing a proliferation of, I think it's the first time I've ever used proliferation in my life. I think it's the first time I've ever said that word, but a proliferation of old ideas, or we're seeing a proliferation of people who are, showing how important it is to be empathetic and understanding of everyone. And so I think that's great. We're also seeing a proliferation of the opposite. So there's a little bit of both there. I also think we're seeing a huge, a huge number of people are wanting to become coaches, online coaches specifically, not in person, wanting to become, and that's an important distinction. They want to become an online coach because they see other people who are online coaches. And then they want to do that, not because they want to be a great coach, but because they think it's easy money. And so I am in a space of, I do think social media is a net positive for the industry, like actually pretty significantly, but I also do think there's a lot that we have to combat. And there's a lot of, a huge amount of a lack of empathy, a huge lack of empathy among coaches. And I brought this up because because you've gone through this on your own, you haven't always looked the way you look now, you've experienced what life is like looking differently. Now, I don't think you have to actually experience something in order to be a good coach at something. Like, you don't have to be an amazing quarterback in order to coach quarterbacks. And just because someone was an amazing quarterback doesn't mean they're gonna be an amazing coach, right? You don't have to have had a six pack in order to coach people to get a six pack. And just because someone has a six pack doesn't mean they're gonna be able to coach you to get one in a positive way. But I do think that having experienced it gives you access to a level of empathy that isn't impossible but is very difficult to access if you haven't had it. And as an example, we could look at doctors, like oncologists who work with cancer patients. No one would say that an oncologist must have had cancer in order to be able to treat cancer. But I bet that a doctor who has had cancer would be able to understand the fears and the thoughts and the concerns of a cancer patient on a different level than a doctor who hasn't done that or hasn't experienced that. And so do you feel like because of the experience that you've had, you can have different conversations and help your clients in a way that maybe other coaches who haven't experienced it can't? - Possibly. I do find it, I have this theory, not solidified in any kind of science but pain, seas and feels pain. I think I am quite attuned with the subtleties and changes of body language and tone and all those other kinds of things. I can pick up, I think I can, I don't wanna say make that sound too boo-boo or intuitive but I think because I have had that but something I wanted to mention on the other side that I do feel at times sometimes I can be too empathetic or I have been too empathetic. - Oh, interesting. - What do you mean by anything? There's, I don't know whether you're familiar with him, there's an ortho called Paul Bloam and he has this phrase, perhaps I'll send you his book but it's entirely unreasonable to be empathetic all of the time because I think what we actually mean which he makes the distinguish between is when we're too empathetic all of the time, we are entirely, I don't wanna say at the, I guess we're almost victim to how the individual is feeling. We can't help but fill on for them. So almost we can't help but let them off even if we know what they're come to us for will be more impactful for them and that is the deeper change they want in the future and I think compassion has got a bit of an airy, fairy reputation at the moment but he kind of separates the two as objective, being more compassionate, just being more objective is having that ability to step back and look at the broader picture. So not removing all empathy but actually having this informed understanding of the empathetic side of things but not letting that help back an individual. - I really like that. I do disagree from the perspective of, I don't think empathy necessitates enabling, right? So like if empathy, if your empathy leads to you enabling them to justify not trying to improve their health, now it's gone too far but it's not the empathy. I think it's maybe you've lacked the objective ability to find that bridge to say, I feel for you, I understand what you're feeling. Now let's move forward and take action. If you don't cross that bridge, it becomes an issue but I don't know if it's empathy. I can understand where maybe empathy becomes so overwhelming where it gets difficult for you to even want to suggest here is how we move forward because you empathize so much but on the other hand, I also think empathy, another form of empathy is yes, I understand how you feel and I also understand how you'll feel if you do this, right? So it's all like forward thinking empathy, like so now I'm gonna use this empathy knowing how you'll feel if you do this to encourage forward action. I don't know, maybe I'm approaching it from the perspective. Like I just, I've never had anything bad happen as a result of empathy only from the actions that you take, if you let your emotions dictate your actions as an empath, right? Does that make sense? That's at least for me. - Yeah, no, I agree with you. And I think he gives a lot of, I guess, societal examples and I don't want to bring up controversial and so I won't do it. - Bring it up, bring it up, bring it up. - For example, if I can draw it to one of the societal ones that he used is that if we're so empathetic to the individual, we forget about the broader community. - Yeah, yeah. - Let's for example, the vaccine. (laughing) Now, just without me passing my opinion or you passing your opinion, you know someone that is a friend of yours, you've known them for years and they have got very sick as a result of getting the vaccine. What adamant that they have got sick because of that vaccine? It doesn't matter what anyone says about the purpose of that vaccine or how it could benefit the broader population. Because you haven't got that ability to step back and be objective in most situations. And that kind of the references that he used when given that. And I guess, you know, empathy and kindness can be taken advantage of sometimes when you're too empathetic to an individual. And again, just a crass random example was a friend, I guess, and another friend that's come to you after years and years and years. Deeply wounded, need to borrow some money to get them out of the hole. You're too empathetic and you give them their money. I think it's a fascinating conversation. Like I'm not professing to be an expert in the field, but I think just at least having these thought patterns and the ability to pause and think allows us to be more objective. And actually just look at the facts in front of us, have an understanding of what this individual is experiencing because that is their experiences. We can't deny that. We're also like, what's the bigger picture here? Because I think when you're compassionate is, so empathy would be, if I'm empathetic myself, it'd be, I don't feel good great today. I'm totally unmotivated. I don't wanna train. That's okay, Dan. You probably could do with a rest. You have a rest today. But then my more compassionate thought would be, like you've committed to this, you know you're gonna feel better after it. If you just do this, just give yourself 10 minutes, you're in the gym for 10 minutes, you're gonna feel better. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah. And it's being able to distinguish between the two. But it's, you know, and obviously it's very individual. It depends on the circumstances, right? Man, it's a really fascinating discussion. Even just thinking about taking one step back towards how I almost feel like societally people have weaponized empathy now that I'm thinking about it. It's, because they can choose who they will empathize with and then choose who they will demonize. And so they'll-- Is it always the most compassionate people that-- Yes. Are so vehemently against anyone that doesn't agree with them? Yes, dude. That compassion then disappears. It's so interesting. It's very, it's like-- That's such a great point that you made that. I totally agree with the weaponizing because I think there's also been, be interested to get your thoughts on this. It's a great way of accumulating social currency. Mm, like, basically, like-- It'd be something to be caring rather than actually doing something. Dude. That's on it, like, it's-- I hate that I'm about to say this and I hate that it's even real, but this is one of the reasons why I hate when I see people make videos of themselves like giving charity or, or-- Dude, I hate that. It's, and I love that the person is giving charity or doing something nice, but it's like, why not just do it with a camera off? (laughs) Like, it's, it's again, it's all for social credit. It's all for the score. It's all so everyone can know-- To be seen, to be that person. Not because you are all that person. And any time I see someone doing that, it immediately makes me think that they're the opposite. As soon as I see that person filming it for everyone to see him thinking, there's a, have you ever read, never split the difference by Chris Voss? No. Dude, awesome book, super highly recommend it. He's an FBI hostage negotiator and he talks about framing conversations and words in a way to be a better negotiator. And one of the things he talks about is empathy, but, and so you can understand the other person, but I was listening to him talk about lying. And lying is very interesting. I think we all would love to be able to know when someone is lying. I also think that, I also think that we tend to get very mad when someone else lies, but then justify when we lie, right? It's so interesting. Like, there's a very famous saying that goes, we judge other people by their actions and we judge ourselves by our intent, right? So when we lie, it's like, well, we have good intent, but if someone else lies, you're like, well, that was your action. I don't like your action. But anyway, he, he was talking about how when someone is lying, not always, but one thing they'll do is they'll give you way more details than necessary. They'll often like just fill you in on things that you just don't need. And again, just because someone is doing that doesn't mean they're lying, but it is a common characteristic, and the do that is because they feel like they need to keep convincing you of the lie. So they'll keep saying more and more things to try and continue to convince you as opposed to if they're telling the truth, they'll just say it and that's it. And so when I see someone posting videos of themselves to show how good they are, in my mind, I'm thinking, you're just trying to show me more and more why I should believe you are this person when in reality, you're probably not. - Yeah, it is that I want to be seen to be like this rather than just embodying it. And you gave great example, there's like, people hanging out homeless people, like sandwiches and taking a selfie with them. Like how humiliating must it be for that individual? - Oh my gosh. Could you imagine like how humiliating that is? But the interesting thing is, you do see these people, they get backlash online and they can't believe it. But I don't know whether there's anything that is entirely altruistic or whether altruism properly exists because you feel good by doing good things for other people, but then your ego has to be involved to want to document that in order to get social reinforcement and applause and credit for that. - Yeah, I mean, I don't think there's any act that is truly selfless, but I also don't think that's a bad thing, right? So like you said, you do it because it makes you feel good. And so for example, if I was going to donate, not all the time, but usually when I donate, I will make it anonymous. The only time I won't make it anonymous, like if I'm donating online or something and you could have like, the only time I won't is when someone specifically asked me to donate and I want them to know that I didn't just say yes, I wouldn't and then I don't want them to know that. - You screen shots in, you share what your story is. (laughing) But otherwise, like if I'm just donating to a cause, I'll just make it anonymous. But... - If it was gross, you know, when you do something nice, I don't know, I'm not gonna be the example here, but I think when I have done nice things for others in the past, it's all kind of gross talking about it. Like as in comes of us as a brag, like there's nothing wrong with a little bit of modesty. We don't need to tell everyone everything. - Correct, yeah. But I think that some people look at the, what I said in terms of like, there's no such thing as a selfless act, but it's also not a bad thing. I think they hear that and think it's a bad thing, but I don't think it is 'cause you're still, you're doing something wonderful. - I guess we can make your donate and your time, but you're doing it, yes, because you want the other person to benefit, but also just because it makes you feel good. Otherwise you probably wouldn't do it. Like if something didn't make you feel good. - Yeah, exactly. Whereas you take in the picture with a homeless person, fine, they might have more food in their bed in the evening, but they're not gonna feel great with you documenting their misery for your own personal gain. - Yeah, exactly. All right, I know it's late where you are, do you have a little bit more time? - Yeah, I can talk for longer. - What time is it right now? - It's 10 p.m. - All right, do you have Jiu Jitsu early in the morning? - It's fine, man, I'm used to running. - Okay, all right. I wanted to talk to you about comedy, because that was, I think, I feel like our relationship jumped levels when we went to go see Tom Segura live. - That was the emotional ride. - It was the whole weekend. - Dude, that was, yeah, it was. So I was in the UK for a big event. I'm not, dude, I'm not gonna say the name of the event because the owner of the event has been so unbelievably difficult to deal with. I don't wanna give him any press, so fuck that. But overall, the event was actually great and I met some amazing people. And I had, Tom Segura, his personal trainer and photographer, Sean Nix, shout out Sean Nix, just amazing guy, he reached out, offered me two tickets to go see Tom, and I called you, and I was like, dude, do you like stand up comedy? And you were like, yeah, dude, I love stand up comedy 'cause I didn't wanna go alone. I wanted to go with someone who can also appreciate it. - Oh, man, I'm glad you didn't. - And I forget, did I say, do you like Tom Segura? And you were like, yeah. - Have you heard of Tom Segura, I think so. - And he was like, one of your favorites. So he went to see, and man, it was just like, it was, I'll never forget sitting down, watching him live, and just like us bumping knees and elbows, just laughing so hard, breathless laughing. And I wanted, what role does comedy play in your life? Is comedy important to you? Why is it important to you? Like, talk to me about that. What does that make you think of? - I heard you described as the cognitive dissonance that your body experiences. 'Cause I think we all have these thoughts that we don't vocalize all the time. So I think its comedians have this incredible way of vocalizing in our thoughts and observations, which, societally, aren't always accepted or acceptable to laugh at. But comedy for me is, your body almost rejects itself. You've got this cognitive thing going on where I shouldn't be laughing at this, I can't be seen to be laughing at this, but your body just betrays you and you're just spilling out a laugh at everywhere. So I think in terms of observational stuff, it's stuff that really resonates with me. I think I like, I'm a big fan of podcast circuit, as well, is you get to know these people individually that a lot of it, as well. Obviously, there's a slightly performative in there. But I think it's essentially just having a chat with your mates, as you would, and their way of delivering. 'Cause I think every comedian that you see or you're a fan of, you can at least associate them with one in someone that you know of, or it behaves exactly the same in your friendship circle. So you're automatically got that connection now. - Yeah. - The strange as that sounds, like this weird parasocial relationship that you develop with these people are complete strangers, but you feel like you know them, to a certain degree. So I think it's just, sounds really primitive, say, but just on a basic connection level, you're connecting with a stranger that has a deeper understanding of all your inner thoughts and feelings about certain things. - Mm, I like that. I really like that explanation. You know? - 'Cause you, I know you're a huge comedy fan, as well, have you dabbled in any more stand-up since you-- - I haven't done it since. My brother, he's a professional stand-up comedian, and he's killing it. He's, I actually saw him perform for the first time a few months ago, and I really want to. I really, really want to. But my brother is, it's amazing, 'cause he, my whole life, he's been, like, we're complete opposites. I'm extroverted, he's introverted, I'm very into fitness, he hates fitness, all that stuff. He's always been super quiet, shy, reserved. Bro, I saw him get on stage, and he just transformed into another person. Like, it was, it was jarring, and in a really amazing way to see him come to life. - The way it was special for you. - Yeah, yeah, it did. Like, and I'm, I'm cheering for him in a way that I've never cheered for him before. I'm just so happy, and like, I've seen him in so many different jobs, and in this job, like, I really feel like I'm seeing him for the first time. Because he's on stage, and he even spoke about it in one of his bits, where he's like, 'cause, you know, we're both short, but he's struggled with his weight his whole life. And he even spoke about, he's like, you know, people say that I'm, I'm different on stage than I am in person. And he's like, listen, I'm a short ball, like really fat Jewish guy, and my whole life, no one would pay any attention to me. I just like, I was invisible. And now I'm on stage, and you all have to fucking look at me. You have to pay attention to me. And like, so for the first time, he's got attention, and he's, for whatever, I think many people, they would cower on stage. He goes the other way, dude. He, it's extraordinary to see, and it's like, I get like, the hair stand up when I think about it, when I talk about it. When I, I've been thinking a lot about comedy and the role it plays in my life, because very few things in my life make me feel the way comedy does. And if I really dig, it obviously depends on the comic and what it is they're talking about, but especially in regard to what you were saying, societal things. I feel like so much of comedy is actually just grieving, if you think about it, right? Where it's, we all know there are different ways to grieve. Some people cry, some people get angry, some people will make jokes. And I think comedians are grieving the things that they're frustrated about or the things that they're sad about or the things that they have real strong opinions about. They're grieving in a way that makes people laugh. And people ask me all the time, like how, 'cause I like dark humor. Like, I like making jokes about terrible things. And it's not laughing at the thing. It's, if I don't laugh, then I cry. And it's not that crying is bad, but I would rather laugh. And this is like, I feel like the best comedians are grieving in a way that makes people actually feel good, which also might be why, you know, many comedians are some of the most depressed, like they're very sad people and they like to make people feel good through laughter. It's, I've been on my own personal, philosophical, comedic journey of why I enjoy it so much. Why does it bring so much light to my life, even around very dark topics? And you're one of the only people in my life who I feel like understands that, especially 'cause we've experienced it together. So I wanted to get your thoughts on it. - Oh, yeah, thanks, man. I just, I've been just talking about some of them there. I'll pop into my head as well. I think it's as someone that struggled a bit with identity, I think growing up and never being comfortable being myself. Like I wasn't something that I found until I was much older, certainly until my mid 20s. And not necessarily defiantly, you know how some people like, well, fuck everyone else. This is me, take me or leave me. Of course, I want to be liked. Everyone wants to be liked. And what I really admire about comedians is they are so authentically themselves. And they fully accept, I am 100% for some people and some people just aren't going to like me. But it's okay because I am up here representing myself in the best possible life. I don't think a lot of people can live, have the courage to live that authentically. But I mean, you know how people dull themselves down for work. They might not share their opinions. There is nothing they can't say. And they're constantly pushing that over to window of what's appropriate to say and what's not to say. And not necessarily because it's mean or it's to oppress a certain group just because it's funny. Yeah. Because something can just be funny. Yeah. That's the whole point in going to comedy. Is it funny? Okay, then it's fine to say. Yeah, yeah. To me. But yeah, them having the courage just to 100% be themselves was something I wish a younger me might have had the courage to do, I think. - I'm going to ask you a question. You're going to hate me for these questions just because I know it's going to put you on the spot and go. Do you think there is any topic? And if you want, I can answer first if you'd like, I'm happy to answer first. Do you think there's any topic that should be off limits to comedians? No. No, I agree. Why? Because you're wasting your opinion and because you're saying it for comedic value, you can say something for comedic value and not mean it. Probably, of course, some people based on their experiences are going to take it a certain way. Like, there's certainly things that I just wouldn't find funny. I think based on experiences that I've had, but I could admire the art of what they're doing and not be personally offended by that. To me, it's just not funny. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I like to think I'm not self-involved enough to take everything personally, like that comedian isn't talking to me in my personal circumstances. Yeah. And perhaps if, like, if you spoke to them one to one, they'd obviously probably be really empathetic about that. Mm-hmm. It's so fun. Just trying to think, isn't it anything that I've thought is totally off limits? There's not, I mean, there's been a few jokes I've heard. I've been like, oh. Yeah, we're like hits you in the gut. We're like, oh, my gosh. That is close to the mark. I saw Jim Jeffery's, you familiar with Jim Jeffery's? I know, Jim Jeffery's, yeah, yeah, yeah. Back in 2008, and that was at a theater near my university, and that was where his, the highs of alcohol and cocaine, and no one left that place unoffended. You know, he was-- Yeah, he goes after everybody. Oh, yeah, there were disability jokes in there. There were homosexual jokes in there. There were slightly racist jokes in there. Yeah. It's all in the delivery, I think. It's also, it's, I completely agree. I don't think anything's off limits. I know some people get upset about that, which the good news is if you don't want to go to a comedy show because you think you're going to get offended, then just don't go to the comedy show. But what's interesting to me is, it's usually the people-- people are usually fine until they say something about you. Once there's something about you, now all of a sudden, it's off limits. That's where I have a real problem. And there was an amazing-- I forget this woman's name. She's an incredible comedian. I think she's passed away at this point. She had one of the best comedians of all time. And she was doing a bit and she was talking about, I think, people with disabilities. And I think specifically deaf people. And so this is like an hour into the show. Someone in the front row gets up and starts yelling. "My dad was deaf, don't know something." And this woman, she loses it. She was like, "Fuck you." She's like, "My son is deaf." And you sat here in the front row laughing at every joke. Every time I made fun of another group of people. But it wasn't until something related to you that you decided I've had enough, because she's like, "My son is deaf." I know exactly what it's like. That's how I can make these jokes about it. It's hard to make a really good joke about something that you're not educated in. You can try to joke about something you're not educated in. But if you're not educated on it, it's probably gonna be a shitty joke. No one's gonna laugh. It's not gonna be good. But to be-- - That Shankir is talking about Down Syndrome. - Oh my gosh, dude. Yes, talks about Down Syndrome. Meanwhile, family members with it open. He owns a coffee shop where people, only people at Down Syndrome can work there. Like, 'cause he understands it so well. And it's funny. He's very, very funny. I like him a lot. His Trump impression is better than Trump. Like, he does a Trump impression better than Trump does Trump. It's unbelievable. - Spanking of Trump before we came on to talk. I just saw a reel that someone is thinking together. Biden just, I mean, he's just not there, is he? - Dude, I feel bad. I just feel bad. - Yeah, I feel bad too. - He's just a sick old man. Like, by the way, not that I'm judging US politics because we've got a shit show over here as well. - Everyone's, everyone's, dude. - Election difference as well. - I'm at a point in my life where I don't think it's possible to get to a high-level career politician without being corrupt. I don't care what side you're on. I just don't think, any side, in order to get to a very high-level politician, I think you gotta be corrupt. And I also think that all my conspiracy theories coming out, like, it's not only do you have to be corrupt, but I would imagine that once you reach that level and you have enough people and money backing you, there are things going on behind the scenes that we couldn't even begin to imagine where it's like, okay, we got you to this level, either you do this or you're dead. That's it, if you do, you either do what we say or you're gonna die in a plane crash. You know what I mean? - There's been many instances where things happen to presidents, to politicians. Is it in Mexico where they've recently had an election, the female? - Oh, oh, oh, I know exactly what you're talking about. - And there was 38 assassination, 37 assassinations in that campaign. - Yeah. - I don't know why anyone would want to be a politician. - Yeah, dude. - No, not at all. Did you ever see the show "Narcos" or either like, - Yes. - Dude. - Oh my God, and that was 60 years ago now, which is really crazy. But like, I know, 30 years in the 90s to 30, 40 years, but dude, it's all true stories of what these governments did. And this is 30 or 40 years ago, and technology is infinitely better now. I'm like, oh God, I'm just... - Anything with power, when it comes to money, is corruptible. - Yes. - And we have more of a class system over here in that we have typically the upper classes that go into career politics. Having never worked in another job or being appropriate qualified to go into these jobs, to apparently represent the people with no understanding of the plight of the average person. I mean, our prime minister at the moment is richer than the king. - Really? - Yeah, and he's on the 150 grand salary a year. Like, why would you work in that? And they see it was for power and connections. And people that get into power while they don't give it up. - Yeah, dude, that's exactly right. That's exactly right. And I don't trust anyone who just wants power. Like, in my everyday life, I wouldn't want that. Why would I want it? Oh, dude, speaking of standup comedy, I forget this guy's name. He's so fucking funny. This guy had a whole skit. He was like, you know, I have one kid and I lied to him all the time. I lied to him all the time. You know, like he says something and I'll just make something up. You know, you shouldn't do that because of this or whatever, I lied to him. He's like, if I lie to my kid, why don't you think the government wouldn't lie to you all the time? (laughing) And he obviously framed the joke way better than I did. But it's just, dude, I just think we're being lied to constantly over and over and over and over again. - I don't know whether this is one of those unpopular opinions that is actually quite popular, but I don't think we truly live in a democracy. As crazy as it sounds. When you think of the money that's invested into parties and the people pulling strings and the back's getting scratched here and there is, is it entirely a democracy? I don't know. - And now I think it's, you know, we don't have as much say as we like to think we do. - Damn, man. This is gonna end this podcast on a really sad note. (laughing) - Sorry. (laughing) - Oh, man, dude. Can you tell everyone where they can find you? 'Cause you are an amazing person. You have incredible fitness information. You have incredible lifestyle and health and everything. You have a beautiful family. Where can people follow you? - Oh, you're too common. Thank you, sir. @v.dan.osman on Instagram. Not the easiest to say out loud. It's probably the easiest. - I'll put it in my show notes. v.dan.osman. - Awesome. - It sounded like a good idea at the time. It's probably the best place to find me. I have my own podcast. Dan Osman's ramblings of the Madman. - I've been on it. - You have been on it? - Yeah. - My ad, my most popular episode today. - Oh, let's go. I love that. - Yeah. - Yeah, I'll have the last number of listens today. - I'll have to. - And do you know all the feedback I got from that, actually, had a couple of my clients. So I have a lady, I won't name her, I just think she doesn't want me to, but I'm working with her at the moment, but she's also part of your inner circle, I believe. - Oh, amazing. - Yeah, but she told me one of the favorite things about that podcast was actually to talk about fitness, 'cause we didn't. I don't think we did. I think we just spoke about stand-up and family and just general. - Yeah, dude, my favorite things to talk about are not fitness, ever. Like fitness is, it's my job and I love fitness. It is not my favorite thing to talk about. It's not my top 10 favorite things to talk about, like, at all. As soon as fitness gets brought up, I'm in work mode. Immediately, it's work mode. It'd be like if you're in IT and like at your free time, like you don't wanna talk about IT, probably. - What do you think of this coding? - Yeah, get out of here. - That's like when I'm out of, I was about to say when I'm at a bar. I haven't been to a bar in years, but like you're at a party or whatever, someone finds out you're a personal trainer. They're like, hey, what do you think of my diet or workout program? I'm like, motherfucker. (laughing) - There's a time and a place and this is not it. - Yeah, well Dan, V.Dan.Ozman, you are truly a wonderful human. I love you, I appreciate you. I hope everyone goes and follows you, applies for your coaching. I just think you're amazing and I appreciate you. Give your family my love and I'm gonna hit stop recording so I can properly say goodbye, all right? [BLANK_AUDIO]

In this episode of The Jordan Syatt Mini-Podcast, I speak with my dear friend, Dan Osman (IG: @the.dan.osman) and we speak about:
- Fatherhood

- Body Image

- Detecting Lies

- The Dark Side of The Fitness Industry

- Disordered Eating