[MUSIC PLAYING] Welcome to Emotionally Unavailable, the podcast where we dive deep into the world of emotional availability and intimacy. I'm your host, Melissa Hepner. And I can't tell you how excited I am to have you join me on this journey of self-discovery and connection. Whether you're navigating the complexities of relationships or exploring your own emotional landscape, this podcast is here to inspire, empower, and entertain. So get cozy and let's explore the depths of human emotions together. Hello, friends. We do not have anonymously unavailable this week because, well, Jamie and I just could not get our schedules together to even communicate with one another this week. Hi, Jane. Don't worry, baby. I am not mad at all at either one of this. Anyway, it's been busy around here. So today's episode is going to be the hilarious Lisa Kirkman. She has a podcast. She's in Australia. And you're going to love her voice and accent. It's great. She has a podcast called Big Gay Overalls. It's kind of her journey into coming out late in life. I will include her information in the show notes. She was really fun to talk to. And I really hope that you guys enjoy this episode. [MUSIC PLAYING] Emotionally unavailable. Hey, it's nice to meet you. Lisa, right? Yes, yes. OK, I'm Melissa, even though my name is spelled Melissa because my parents thought they were so cute. In fact, they toyed with several variations of Melissa, one of which was M-Y-L-I-S-S-A because you're my Lisa. No, bitch, just spell it normal. Because you've just subjected me to a lifetime of spelling my name over and over again. Yes, it's always mispronounced or misspelled. One or the other, I'm also called Michelle a lot. And more than I'm complimented is if I had any fucking choice in the matter. Like, I mean, that's me. Yeah, I got a lot. Yeah, I'm like, well, thank you. My dad was high. I don't know what to tell you. Anyway. I got the traditional Lisa Marie. And I can't tell you the many times people are like, oh, after Lisa Marie Presley? No, just my parents couldn't agree. So the winner got Lisa and the runner up got the hyphenated bit. That's how they compromised. I need to get Lisa Marie if I'm in trouble. Well, I think Lisa Marie is a vibe. You know what I mean? Very like in your own shit. Like, you're staying in your own power, you know? Yep, yep, it is that. But I've, yeah, I've always just gone. I think I went through a stage when I was a kid where I was like, you have to call me Marie. That's it, and I still have birthday cards from my father where he humid, but no one else did. And he for a year or two. And then, like, I just, this is what it is. It's Lisa, that's it. I think I was about 10 at the time 'cause clearly I knew what I wanted to do life at 10. Hey, you know what? I have a 10-year-old daughter. And one of her middle names is Marie. And that's only by consolation, just so you know. And, you know, I'm surprised. She hasn't made a decision like that yet. Because, you know, girls at 10 are pretty strong. Well, that I'm learning. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we've got it all nailed down. Yeah. Got the answers. Oh, she could solve all the world's problems, honey. Like, yeah, she's got it. Well, she's a Virgo rising, too. So this bitch, she's keeping all of us in line. Yeah, yeah. Good luck. Are you into astrology? Only, sort of-- Just enough? Just enough to know that a Virgo rising's killing me to raise, yeah. Yeah, you've been setting her for a reason, though. Oh, honey, listen, you're so right. And-- but she's also a Scorpio moon. And I'm hearing all this bad shit about Scorpio meat, moons being like because their moms are bad shit crazy. And I'm like, well, that's true. But like, does that mean she's going to be fucked up for life? Like, what the hell-- At first, I heard if mom had a near-death experience, or if like childbirth was just real traumatic, or if mom had miscarriages prior to the birth. And I did. And so I was like, OK, make sense. Make sense. No. It's probably because she has a bad shit crazy mom. And that's OK. I accept it. We've all got to have stories to tell when we get all this go with it. That's what I keep telling myself, is like, honey, you're going to fuck her up a little bit, no matter what you're doing. So just do your pass. Just do your fucking best. I think if you're a textbook perfect parent, you're going to fuck them up even more. Oh, absolutely. I'm not a parent, but I've been enough-- had enough kids in my life in different ways. It's like, if you're going to be perfect, I think it's going to do them more harm than a few life experiences and a few learnings along the way, shall we say. Right. Well, and I think she's really in a unique situation now, just having seen me go through the very worst time in my life. I hate that she had to see that, but she's seeing me rebuild. And so she gets a totally different version of me than her brothers did, which causes some stuff, because I get on to them a little bit for the way they do things with her. And I'm like, don't dismiss her. Don't whatever. And I can feel the resentment like you wouldn't have given a fuck if that was me. I'm like, well, there's a reason I started a podcast called Emotionally Unavailable, OK? My gym and I asked didn't know how to have feelings. So there. She's a Gemini son, too. Well, there you go. Yeah. Yeah. So you have a podcast? I do have a podcast called the Big Gay Overalls podcast. Who, how did you say that name? That is a conversation, a running joke between myself and a business coach that I worked with. And they were some of the first people I came out to. And then when my now wife and I, we moved to a rural area. And I was always taking photos of cows or the sunset. And I'm just jokingly used to say, well, out here on the farm. And he's like, are you wearing your gay farmer overalls? And it was just a thing. Like even he will say something to me. Did you wear your overalls while you did that? And I'm like, you know, if I didn't despise you so much and want you to be right, I would just go and buy a pair overalls just for a laugh. And then when I was thinking about the name of the podcast, I just kept coming back to the big gay overalls. Yeah, I loved it. It was a great, I felt like it was an analogy as well, because the content of the podcast is about my journey coming out late in life and the navigating that. So the overalls I felt were a really good analogy because, hey, you put on overalls to cover everything out, which I did for 46 and a half years in my life. But also when you get to work, you put your overalls on, like, and there was so much work and still so much work involved that I had to do in that process of coming out. So I'm like, I think it kind of fits as a thing. And totally drew me in and you're graphic. Yeah, I love it. I love it. As soon as I don't know how that happened, which fucking site we were on threads, I don't know. And I was just like, OK, I'm obsessed with both the name and picture. Like, this is amazing. This is amazing. And it, I actually asked, I don't do a lot on the AI, but I asked chat GPT, create a logo for a podcast around this. And it spat that out. That was like the third or fourth iteration. It spat and went, that's it. Then I just had a graphic designer, like digitize it and clean it up because sometimes I create mine. That's funny. There you go. And because sometimes it can be weird and what it creates, but I like the essence. I said, can you just like now create this thing. So come on and do it. And as an offshoot of the podcast, because I had so many people reach out about, you know, creating a space for them to connect, I created a group on the school platform called Embracing My Big Gay Overalls. So for people who want to have a community and that's not connected to your socials and it's not like some of the, a lot of the Facebook groups in this demographic, I guess, are being created by life coaches and stuff who want to flog you their thing and help you on your transformational journey and do that shit. And it's just to harvest clients. So people ask me for a space to connect and I was like, well, I want to do that. So, and I find that, you know, people are a little bit less likely to be vulnerable on platforms like Facebook, when everything you're in is connected. And you're like someone's going to, particularly people who aren't fully out here or whatever. - Right. There's a lot of danger because groups are not as private as you think. There's always a mole, always screenshot. - And you can't, like you can't see who's in the group to you're in it, which is a, and cause I like to have a little bit of any scan and go, you know, and so it's kind of like a, you know, it's sticky. So in my day job I use, we use a school platform. So I just created something on school. And you don't have to connect it to your socials. And it's not the invite, like I get what the administrators or Facebook groups are trying to do. They're trying to keep out the trolls and the things. - Yeah. - But when I apply to joining group and I have to give my email address, my dogs for you. - Yeah. - And I have to have an unlock profile so that they can see my profile picture and it's going to be a picture of me. I'm like, I don't necessarily know if this is the right group for me, but I've got to give all that stuff at first. So this is a different way of doing it. And I'm hoping to keep out trolls and people with not great intention cause it's just five months to be in there which just covers my cost of running the platform. - I might be a member. I went the other day to support you and got all the way to the end. And I don't know if I was at an internet issue or whatever. - Yeah. - And are you popping in? - I don't remember getting like a confirmation. It just sat on that last final page for a little bit but I was like, well, shit, I've got that sort of thing. You know, I'll support. - And I appreciate that. But, and it's the thing like if you're going to do it just to cause trouble then you're probably not going to part with five bucks a month. And five bucks being owners. And, you know, I share resources like here at counselors and therapists that, you know, we know support this. And here's, you know, other podcasts that are useful and just content. And just to make it a space where people can come and connect and we talk about different topics rather than just, you know, people, Facebook, you know, people like us do things like this and people can get on there. There's a lot of negativity and winching. And if you go on there and you make a posting, oh, well, you know, I'm still with my husband but I've fallen for somebody else or whatever then, or I don't know for sure if I'm actually gay. Then you'll get all these people who go, well, why are you even in here? And why are you doing this? It's like, well, pump the brakes, cowgirl, because at some point you're at that point of that journey and someone- - No, no, no, no, no, no, right. - And, you know, one of my things that I say all the time is like to people is, you know, your message and your struggle is your story. So if by me sharing my stuff, because it's crazy, confusing, conflicting, just messy but it can also be incredibly rewarding and beautiful and amazing when you get through some of that stuff, then maybe somebody who's just starting that journey will go, oh, it's not just me or it does get better rather than, you know, people always being conflicted or I can't find anyone this. And, you know, I'm blessed that I met my wife and, you know, I have a very amicable friendship still with my ex-husband, like we still talk constantly. We co-parent a dog. My mother still lives in the house, like it's- - Oh my God, I love it. - It's, you know, it's not a thing. - This is exactly how I've lived first of all. - And we've done it, you know, like as adults as you do. And so it doesn't have to be, you know, this big thing. So that's what led me, I was trying to write my life story and then I was like, oh, but, and then I get bogged down in the details. Should this be chapter one or should this be chapter three? Whereas, you know, I host a podcast in my, like day job. So I was like, that's easy for me to do. I can create something, I'll just do that. And I'll just talk to it. And if nobody listens, awesome. If one person listens and goes, oh, well, this helped me. - Uh-huh. - Great. - Yes. - Do you know what other people feel like from police? - Yeah. - So that made me think of one other thing. I hate to go back to bitch about Facebook. - Yeah. - But it makes me question, like, having somebody provide all of that information upfront really makes me question how much somebody knows about fucking coming out or anything. Like, stay deep first, bro, what the fuck? You know, I mean, I'm not gay, but that's a pretty, pretty common thing to understand about anybody going through anything any trauma, any whatever, safety first. It's not, it's not hard. - Yeah. - It's just like, why are you starting a Facebook group if you're not committed to your followers or whatever members being prioritized in their safety? I just don't get that. But also I was thinking, this is why I don't care who I have on my podcast because we're all the fucking same. You know what I mean? We're gonna, we have so much in common no matter what. And this is also why I don't do any sort. I've had a couple of people kind of freak out. Like, we're not gonna like talk first and like, you know, figure out whatever. And I'm like, baby, I have no time for that. So if you wanna come on, come on, 'cause I promise you, it'll be fun. But, you know, don't come on, that's okay. But like, you're talking about the same stuff as everybody else, you know? Like, just finding yourself, going through a hard time. Yes, you have a brand and that's good. You know what you're after, you know? And minds about people stop running from themselves and fill themselves with self first. And it's all the same shit. You know, it's the same shit to be able to accept your sexuality and be open about it. And I had to stop running from myself too, finally. And it's funny, like, when I came out to my business coaches, I said, oh, well, you know, I think I'm gay. And they went, well, shit, thanks for turning up, finally. We've been waiting for you. And they're like, we knew that there was something and we figured out this is what it might be, but it's not for us to bring it up with you. And you have to be okay. And then at the end of that call, sorry, the start of the next week's call, I said, oh, you know, before we start, I need you to say, I'm gay. And I went, yeah, but I told you last week, dickhead. And he's like, no, you said, I think, I need you to own it. And, but it's that same thing with it. It doesn't matter what you're overcoming in life, you have to be okay with yourself and do that self-work. - Exinity work of any kind. - Yeah, because I mean, you know, no one's got to any age in life without having baggage and trauma and stuff they're bringing with them. And that's why, like, particularly in the late bloomer, demographic sounds wanky, but you know what I mean? - Yeah, we're coming to this realization of this whole new identity. So like I lived Lisa for 46 and a half years and now it's a different version of Lisa. And it's like, so I'm just starting again. And, but I've brought all this, you know, are you whole of baggage with me of past experiences and beliefs? It's really good now that when it's, it's a lot easier for people to be open and own their sexuality where they're 15, 16, 20. So now they can just go through life with a nice little matching rucksack and a pair of Birkenstocks, like that's what they can do. They're not lugging this whole life, but they have to then find the space and the right community to help them unpack that appropriately and whether that's therapy or a supportive group of people that are not going to let you get stuck in it, but are going to help you, you know, see you and move you through that stuff so that you can embrace who you are. And once you get together, it's scary like you pull it up and you're like, so much stuff here. Like how do I figure out who I am and throwing all this stuff out and then, well, fuck what does that mean? - That doesn't mean, yeah. - There's so much work to do in that. And that's when I said to you, I was there anything in particular you want to discuss or whatever and you're like, no, we're just going to go where the conversation takes us and I'm going, sweet. That's your time. - Yeah. I mean, because, you know, I can talk to anyone. I love to talk, I just need you to know that. I love to talk so fucking much and, you know, I just, ever since I've done the work that I've been doing, I mean it when I say like literally we are all doing the same shit and we're all having all these deaths and rebirths our whole life and transformations and finding ourselves and I'm 44. So even though I'm not coming out late in life, I am coming out and in within myself and embodying myself for the first time and seeing the world completely fucking differently because when you love yourself, you cannot fucking hate other people. You just, it's like so impossible. - Yeah, I mean, listen, let me make a declaration right now. I have to say this every time I say that except for child molesters. - Well, I keep them and I and I hope they die. - Yeah, it's a, but you tend to view the world as like, where do you can be, you know, accepting of yourself? You are more able to view people with a bit of grace and go, well, I don't know how they've walked here, what they've walked through to get here or, you know, why and I don't think until I fully embraced like living an authentic life and being who I was meant to be that I understood that, that quote, that, you know, be kind because everyone's fighting a battle, you know, nothing about and I never really understood that until I can look around a room now and go, you know, if someone's just being an asshole is like, well, maybe they're dog died or maybe something happened on the way, just something as superficial as that. - Something is going on. - Yeah, and it's okay, well, how do I not add to that? Because I don't understand it, so why am I going to make their day worse if I can just be a good human? - Yeah, and also you don't find yourself feeling the need to engage in any of that when you're not taking it personally. When you don't feel attacked by other people's behaviors because you fully understand that that's about them and not you, it's like, oh shit, baby, you good? But, you know, I mean, I'm not going to put myself in a situation in front of people who shouldn't be in my energetic field, maybe because they're just not for me, but I'm also not going to spend a lot of time worrying about what they're thinking or doing or anything in regards to me. - Well, it's, you know, someone said to me, a friend said to me, many years ago, it's always stuck with me, you know, what someone else thinks of you is none of your business. And everybody is filtering every event that happens to them through their own stories, narratives, bullshit, trauma, everything until it comes to a point that they respond or react to something. And all of that is what's propelling that out into the world. And now we don't know any of that stuff. And so, yeah, you've got to accept people on face value, but you can also then choose whether you engage with it or whether you sit back and observe it. And that takes a lot of discipline. But again, if you haven't done that self work, it's really hard time. - Yeah, you can not, you can't not take things personally if you haven't done it because God, I didn't even fucking realize just the way I hated myself, what I didn't think I did, the way I had so much shame just for being a human, just for doing a human shit, I just was covered in shame. And the way I've been explaining things to clients is like, all right, we're gonna break it down in those like core attachment wounding and the core narratives attached to that wounding. And now when people start to talk, especially my clients, 'cause we're talking about certain things, but it really doesn't take much. For me to be like, oh, okay, I know exactly what this is. I know exactly which wound that's tied to. I know exactly which narrative is created because it's all the fucking same. We're all having the same experience just with different variables. We're all wounded and our glasses are covered in our wound. And that's what we're viewing the world through. So I'm like, we got to clean your glasses off. And when you're looking at it through compassion, you don't give a fuck if that person's in a bad mood. You just don't fucking care. - And you can clearly see when people are doing the work and they're trying to be, they're authentic self, so you can have empathy for that and support that. And it was interesting what you said before about, like you're not coming out with a sexual identity, but you are coming out with your own actual identity. So you get out of bed, it's like, well, who is Melissa like? What do I even like? Like, what makes me happy? What sparks joy? Because you're doing it in the parameters of this new set of beliefs and values rather than, I'm just in this box that someone put me in and I'm doing all the right things because I'm expected to do XYZ. Well, I just did all that well. - Why are I still like shit still? - Yeah, that's a kick in the teeth 'cause I should have the happily ever after right now. And it's like-- - I've done all the things I said I wanted to do. Why does it feel like shit? - Yeah. Why do I feel like I'm still standing outside my body watching myself leave my love and not even realize that? - No, you don't. - I was so closed off to all of, and I'm still embarrassed to say that. It's stupid, but I'm still embarrassed because it's like, I did not realize, I thought I just had very little blind spots. Like, I thought I was, whatever. And then, but I couldn't figure out why I was treating my husband like shit every fucking morning, every morning, okay? Last night, it hit me. So I was like, hey, you know how I used to be really mean in the mornings? And he's like, yeah. And I was like, well, I figured it out. I have a really, really, really, really big betrayal wound, right? And it doesn't take much. You can throw a piece of trash away that I didn't want thrown away yet. It really, it takes very little for me to feel betrayed. And I didn't see the distinction between you betrayed me and I feel betrayed. So all of this, but I couldn't even label it betrayal. I was just like, fuck you. You know, it was just nonstop. So when I was putting it together last night, I was like, yeah, so I felt like you were living a life I wanted to live because he's been self-employed for a long time. And this was all subconscious. It's all me, whatever. But every morning, I'm getting ready for a job. I don't fucking want to go to. I mean, and I told him, if you think about it, I've never really been satisfied, except for my first hospice job. And I got really close with the people I worked with and then drama happened. And I lost all of those friendships. So I experienced really big losses. And I just didn't attach to people like that anymore. After that, I mean, maybe one person, I still have a friend for my second hospice job that I still work at, but I just, I was a different person entering those new fields. And then whenever I gave education to try for seven years, you know, the way I developed friendships and that was different. And I just wasn't satisfied. I knew I knew I wasn't doing what I should be doing. And I have always had the dream to be doing what I am now and more, you know, and I'm working on the more, but I wasn't satisfied. And somehow my shadow of shame that I've learned about, you know, this one shame was always like, it's your fault that I have to go to this job and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Somehow you're betraying me because I have to go to this job and work a job I fucking ate. Because I wasn't ready to face myself. I've been running from my feelings my whole life because I was very scared. Once I started doing work, I realized it hit me like, baby, it's not scary to feel this. It's not just like, it's so much better for you to just sit and let it happen than to do everything you're doing to try not to feel it. And then the byproduct of trying not to feel. And I know, you know what I mean by that because we're all either making the choice to go through this or not. And it's it's you realize once you're out of it, that it's exhausting to not feel because you're always like, you know, running is a good good analogy. You're always running. So you're always in motion because you're trying to constantly distract yourself. I would endlessly buy, you know, shoes because I'd get that. That if I had the latest crossfit shoes, that was the momentary. Look at me. Yeah, hit that you get and you go, OK, I feel good. And I remember because I used to run a crossfit gym for seven and a half years. And I remember one of the members said to me once said, you know, I feel like recently you've become more yourself because and it because this is always stuck with me. And they always felt like I was always fighting something like I constantly had a chip on my shoulder because I was always trying to prove that I was worthwhile and prove that I belonged and prove that I deserved, you know, to have that space and that I could be a gym owner and a coach. And despite what everybody said. And then I reflected and I was like, that's been like my entire fucking life as been proving people wrong that we used and that's primarily when I went down the path and to get, you know, getting married is like, don't get me wrong. I loved, you know, my husband, but I think it was in the way of I love the idea of being in love and having what everybody said I wouldn't, even in my family. And, you know, as a kid, I grew up in a small country town. And if you weren't, you know, sleeping with every every man around, well, you must be a lesbian, you must be a dyke, you must be this. And I would like. Which in that age group was the worst thing you could be? Yeah. And I would sort of push back against it. So then when the opportunity came, I like latched onto it with both hands because I'm like, you know, I'm going to prove so I had to have a bigger wedding than my sister. And I had to do it. Oh, yeah, I know exactly what you mean. But I distinctly remember walking down the aisle at my first wedding and going, oh, am I supposed to cry here? Should I be crying now or do I need to smile? It was very, I used to describe myself as the character of the TV show Dexter, where he had to manufacture, like, I wasn't killing people just to disclaimer, but had to manufacture that emotion in that moment going, oh, I'm in this, I should be laughing, you should do this. You were play acting. Yeah. And then, but then when I became who I was meant to be, suddenly, like, I joke because my wife is a counsellor. So, you know, people joke that two women together, you don't fight, you just talk a lot. And then add a little more on top of that. And I always say that she's trying to therapist me. But like, I've probably felt more emotions in the last four years than I have in the previous 46 years. And I'm like, OK, body and brain, you do not need to catch up and do the back orders of emotions because I'm kind of good now. But because I'm now feeling that stuff and you go, oh, well, you know, because she'll look at me, she goes, what's going on? I go, nothing. She goes, why don't you feel it? And then straight away, because then it's like, it's OK to feel the thing because, you know, like, mum would often say to me, and I've got a very complex relationship with my mother, why, you know, what are you crying for? Or, you know, you just got to get over it, or with my husband. He was a boy, you know, he said, do you? A boy, a typical boy, and that I'd cry. And he'd just like, OK, I'm just going to change the channel now. I don't. Do I do anything to call this? So then you just shut it down. Yep. It's not cool. We've been taught our whole lives like, oh, that's too much. Yeah. You know, like, I know that I didn't start out this emotionally stunted. And I very much remember so many times all through my life being called too sensitive, even in my adult life. And now if someone were to say that to me, I would hope that I would be able to understand what language they're speaking, but it is still a trigger a little bit because I'm not too sensitive. I have emotions and you're being a bitch. Yeah, it's, you know, it's understanding that, you know, I think I always, that's what sort of attracted me with your podcast. The title, ironically, is that, you know, I feel like I lived the majority of my life being emotionally unavailable because of, you know, my father was very mentally and psychologically abusive. So, you know, there was no emotional sort of attachment or anything there. So it's like, well, you don't cry or I'll give you something to cry about kind of deal. And, you know, I had some traumas and things like that. And then as you evolve into an adult, it's, it's a coping mechanism. And I actually think that, you know, most of the people who are in my position or who are considering like, maybe I am gay, maybe I am this, you know, and then they realize how much was that they don't actually let themselves feel because then they would have to own their truth of, well, actually, yeah, chicks away hotter than dudes, like, and then, and that's uncomfortable because they're like, well, you know, one of the things that I struggle with so hard when deciding to leave that relationship was like, nobody asked for this. And I'm going to turn their lives 180 degrees. And I'm going to disrupt everyone's life because of me. So I should just shut it down and just, just keep doing the thing. But it got to the point that was so compelling, like I have to, you know, I was working with a therapist or something that I just went and, you know, tinking around in my brain by myself. We don't play in their unsupervised, but I was like, well, I have to do this. Like, I felt this compulsion and it's scary. And on the people pleaser, so the first time in my life, I did something that was good for Lisa that was not and had to manage then those conversations and all that stuff. But I feel like I went through that whole, you know, the majority of my life going, I don't know what's a real emotion or a thing because it's always like, stand up, trade small, do the thing. Like, right, my first wedding was an out of body experience for me that I was watching the whole day unfold. Well, walking on the fucking aisle in a wedding dress was not your vibe. No, well, no. And I got the biggest poofiest dress you get. Like it was, of course you getting it was there. Okay, that's all y'all need to know, girl. Yeah, yeah, this is it. But when I married my wife, our wedding day was, I had no family and we had, you know, 40 odd people there by the beach. And I went, you know what, I really want to wear my boots. So I'm going to wear pants and I didn't care. Like, it's like, let's go get a suit made up. Great. That's what, and it wasn't a gender thing or anything. Like, I just wanted to wear something that I was comfortable in all day. Yeah. She was going to wear a pantsuit initially. And then she went, oh, no, I'm going to wear a dress. Cool. How about it? Like, whatever you want. The thing I found most different about that day is I was 100% present in the day. Not about who was there or who we spoke to or did all the things line up. It was like, we built a day that was just very much about us. And I was like, oh, this is what it should feel like. No, my bad eyes. Yeah, so understanding that you can feel those emotions and that it's not always going to lead to difficult things or bad things. But if you don't feel the hard things and you're not going to feel the good things as well. Right. Yeah, I couldn't. I had no access to peace the way I have now. And sure, there was a very, a couple to three months time of so much guttural moaning crying that it was fucking insane. And my children were terrified because it would just happen. But that was because I was learning how to start to feel. And I didn't know how to even experience an actual feeling. I mean, I'd be like, OK, well, what do I do? I know that there's something there. How do I access the feeling? How do I feel it? How do I feel it? You know? And so I had to like start looking shit up and learning like stuff to feel emotions. And now, you know, for a while, I had to check in with my body and be like, if my back hurts this bad and I'm thinking so much that I'm pissed, I'm blocking a feeling I'm in my head. I'm not in my heart. What do I feel? And now it's so second nature to be like, Oh, that triggered this wound. This is the core narrative. That's why it was triggered blah, blah, blah. Sometimes I have to tell the person like, hey, blah, blah, blah, just to get it out in like a way, depending on the magnitude of the thing. Especially if it hits my damn betrayal wound. It's so big that it's hard to not like overthink stuff. So I just say it and then it's gone. But before I was a prisoner inside of my brain, just overthinking, overthinking. Like I was talking to a client about this last night who has like so a whole fucking library of self-help books. She's been through so many therapists and I was like, you've come to the right place. Cause like, I got you. Yeah. Cause I was like, Hey, I know I was a therapist dream once too. And, you know, because we can say all the right shit because we think we're doing, we read it, we feel like we understand it, but we can't internalize it and have it imprint on us. And I was like, you're connecting all that knowledge and whatever with your feelings. And now all the tools that you had before makes sense. But I had no idea that to regulate your nervous system, which I really struggled with because I have CPTSD and I didn't know that you had to regulate your emotions first. Because I had no idea that I was emotionally unavailable. It took a person kind of mentioning it or I think I'm always reading quizzes online. And I was, I asked another social work friend like, do you think I'm emotionally unavailable? And she was like, And I was like, really? Can you give me an example of that? And she's like, well, the way you talk about your trauma is a good example. And I was like, why? Cause I'm funny. What do you mean, you know, I had no idea like, because I'm still going to tell my trauma stories in a funny way most of the time. I've certainly cried about a couple on here, but that's who I am. You know, but I can detach from that. But unfortunately, I have detached from all the wrong things and attached to all the wrong things. So sorting all of that out. I think I had to get over the shame of not being perfect at life. Like the fact that I made it 44 without knowing how to feel a feeling, you know? But there's no handbook, is there? Like no one tells you, like when you're a kid, people will tell you what to feel when to feel like you're going, you should be happy. It's Christmas. It's your birthday. Why aren't you happy? Why aren't you disappointed? Yeah, like, and so you kind of get that little social cues in the guidance. But then once you hit, you know, a reasonable age, there's no one's giving you a manual, saying how to down regulate your feelings, how to understand that this is a feeling or that sometimes it's just a lie. You're telling yourself and you're making yourself. You know, facts and things and thoughts are not facts. I had to learn that. And and understand knowing then where do I check in with myself to find out what the real fact is, is like, Oh, I'm reacting like this because of this. It's not really about this thing. It's coming from here. But there's no handbook and sometimes it can take you a long time to find the right therapist or council or whatever to connect to who is going to hold space and ask the right question. But also at the end of the session, be able to put the lid back on the fizzy bottle so that you're not walking out there and everything's just spewing out. Like for me, I'd been through psychiatrists and psychologists as a kid. And like, I was near what they're talking about. So I was like, you're not, you're not getting anything out of me. But it took my business coaches who would just sit and go. So why is that a struggle for you? I reached out to them because I was having trouble in my business, getting my coaches on board with doing what I need them to do. And then they're their philosophy or their process, I guess, because I now coach for them as well as is not about giving advice. We don't tell a homeowner, if you do this, this will fix your business. It's like, tell me where you want to get to. And I'm going to observe your behaviors and see if your actions and attention is aligned. So when they're like, Oh, I can never get this. Okay, why is that a struggle for you? And we just ask more questions. And that was the moment no one had ever asked me something. And then they will just sit there in that uncomfortable silence and wait for you to answer. And I'll be really, I'll be really off stuff. And they're like, yeah, cool. So that's all bullshit. What's the actual answer? Like, what aren't you telling me? And they were so many times I would say something like, thanks for getting here. We've been waiting and they would get in and hold the space for an answer. And I'd never had that in my life. But when you find the right person that will sit there and hold the space, you don't ever want to have small, meaningless conversations ever again. Because you're like, you know, I would go to the gym then after that to coach classes and the members are like, you had your meeting again this morning, didn't you? You are like pinging off the rafters. And I'm like, and then I would replicate that with my members going. So why is this a struggle for you? Like, why, you know, why is this hard? And, you know, why is this not? And they're like, it's Friday again. We're not coming in Friday because you're going to be in that space. But once you see it and are exposed to that, you can't unsee it. That's how you want to live your life. Like, I don't have room now for small, meaningless, superficial conversations. It's like when I say to a friend now, how are you? I actually want to know how are you? Like, how is I'm not going to ask unless I have time for that answer? Yes, and it's like, OK, I don't want to just debate about the merits of, you know, should people do CrossFit over F 45 or whatever? Don't care like what's important to you and what's going to move you closer to your goals and what's the struggle here? Like, you know, and like finding the right person can take time though. And most people might get a counsellor, a therapist or whatever, a mentor. That's just, you know, we call them gurus. They're just going to give you, well, here's this template. And you're like, well, skit, that didn't work for my situation. Well, the template works for everyone else didn't work for you. And then I don't and they don't keep trying. They're like, oh, you know, I've had clients, you know, who are the gym owners, who I'm like, we've talked them about them going to see therapy. And they're like, I've tried before and didn't get there. You got to keep trying until you find the right one. I mean, you didn't just marry the first person you dated, potentially. I did. Well, yeah. I think Marlon's the second or something, but you know what I mean? It's like I do. I do it. It takes time. So, but then the only tip that you're going to share stuff with your person takes time and a connection and, you know, I mean, I don't know. But I just believe that I'm attracting the people who need me. You know, yeah, and you will. Like if you are and I've learned that through this process of this podcast, it's been really interesting because I've started a few different sort of business projects and things and I can post about it. And, you know, they just die quietly in the corner like nobody engages. I've not promoted this podcast at all. Like I've been very selective, like who I follow on the account and stuff, just because it's, you know, I'm I'm very vulnerable about my story. And I still want to respect the privacy of other people who are involved in my story. So I haven't gone out and stuck it on the side of it then, but it's grown organically because I'm being authentic and like my business coach said to me, he's like, well, I had to tell you, but I can tell you so that your power is in, you know, you being authentic that will connect with people. And I think when people try and connect and share their story and they don't get the right person, then they're like, well, I ripped off that band aid. It was painful. I'm sure as fuck not doing that again. Because they're not sure it's going to be the right person and they don't try again. So then they just get further and further repressed in not feeling things, not talking about things and not having the right space. But when they discover that power of that authenticity, being who they are, like you are very much who you are and owning that, then the right people are drawn to you because they're like, I need that. And I can then know from if I see you be brave enough to do that, well, I see that it's possible, like before, I mean, how many years did it take? There was some stat about how many years it took for someone to break the four minute mile, and then once it was done once, then every next year it was done. Because they've seen it done and they're like, oh, they lived. It was OK. Exactly. So it's like, OK, well, my path is not the same as yours, but I can see you've navigated and you've been OK. So maybe I'm brave enough to do the next thing that I can do. Right. And understand that someone at the end of that, whether it's someone watching your podcast or listening to it, and they don't even know you personally, but they feel like that someone who gets me. So then they can go and start doing changes in their life. They don't necessarily have to connect directly with you. Right. Yeah. I mean, if they're a person like me listening, I'm a talker. I'm a communicator and I feel through talking or listening. So I know that what really changed my life in a big way was finding Dax Shepard and Monica Padman's podcast, armchair experts, because for the first time ever, I was hearing people be so vulnerable. And that started a fire within me like, I thought I was vulnerable, you know, because I was a trauma that I would trauma that. So I thought that was fine. But now it's funny because when we were saying about the like small talk and shit like that, I was just telling my husband yesterday, like, no, everything has a currency in peace. Now, if it costs too much of my peace, I have to just let it. I mean, the things that would send me into a fucking rage for three whole days before I'd be like, okay, I love the way I feel. I don't want to feel like that. I don't give a fuck, you know, like I just have to let it go. And I give myself the chance to be like, what did it hit? Why did I do it so that I can experience the feeling instead of running? Because I love to intellectualize. So I have to make sure I'm taking that extra step and feeling. And I tell my client, honey, 30 seconds is fine. You don't have to sit in the mouth of feelings all day. You just, you just don't need to run from them either. And when your nervous system is dysregulated too, you're also running from a bear 24/7, you're just trying to live. And to a point that you just made a second ago, I was thinking. Some, I have a belief that sometimes subconsciously we choose people to say these things to that are going to shut us the fuck down to confirm the narrative that we created that said, I'm always going to be dealing with the big shit by myself. Nobody gives a fuck what I say. Nobody cares how I feel. I'm fucking alone. I can see now how I have chosen emotionally unavailable people. My whole. Because it's safe. It is like. I don't have to face myself if you're not asking me to. And you know, you see people that pursue relationships with somebody that's unavailable because it's safe. They don't have to invest in that relationship because it's like, well, they're never going to be with me fully. So they're never going to ask too much of me. So it's, it's that, that safe, that's a safety net where you're like, well, I only have to give as much as they want. And that's going to be OK. And you see those patterns repeated and repeated. And it's interesting, you know, as we evolve as humans, because we are still for all of the way that we've evolved as a species. We still work in, in prehistoric times. So when our stress receptors are up, it doesn't know. It was because, you know, we, that we tripped over the dog on the way in or was that the boss is a dick. It thinks it's just a walk about to be eaten by a tiger. And it releases all the same stuff, even though the, the fear or the thing that we're, we've triggered it is manufactured even by us. And yes, we are as humans, we're negatively biased. We are biased towards a negative to keep us alive and stop us doing dumb shit. Yeah, one of the sort of times, but now that still, that, that now still stops us. So for as much as we've come so far, technologically and lifestyle, our bodies are still prehistoric beings that operate on base, like keep your life. It might, if you're feeling like this, your heart rate's elevated. Oh, it must be because you're being chased by a tiger. No, just I've had a really bad day at work and I just can't deal with myself right now. And my kid just asked me for $5. Yeah. And it would be the smallest thing and I'd be in it in the red. Yeah. And we can't like when we I used to take things really personally, like when I was at the gym, if a member cancelled and I'd be like, I failed them. I've done this. I've been a bit. You don't like he has a purse. Yeah, they say, you know, but then I realized one day, like, wow, well, I've spent seven days being upset about, you know, Melissa leaving. I haven't done anything that's taken the business forward. So I have to be disciplined to go, OK, you've got five minutes to sob cry kickwalls, have a tantrum, have a meltdown, feel shiny about yourself. And at the end, when that alarm goes, you have to do one thing that's going to move you forward. So whether it was call a lead, whether it was, you know, do something that was going to move me one step out of it. Because otherwise I'd sit in a week and I'd still be sulking about someone who left because they moved town for their job. So it can, oh, no, no other reason, but I'm still feeling shit about it. And it's like, dude, it's holding you back from these other things. And when you can create that, you know, awareness proceeds action or when you can create that awareness, you're like, now I get to make the decision about how I deal with this and how I respond. And it was really interesting, something you just said seems to be the topic of my day today is peace. I'm about to, I'm just entering this really challenging period. My mum's just been diagnosed with Alzheimer's and whole heap of stuff. And we live about 45 minutes away from her. So I'm still her primary carer, though. But, you know, my wife said, well, do we need to move closer? And I went, well, no, because then we're immersed in at like 24/7. At least now when we come, because we said when we bought this house, it just felt like we, I had peace within me when we moved out here. Like we hear cows moving at the morning, you know, it's just nice. And when I come home here, as soon as I walk in the garage, I'm like, and doesn't, doesn't matter where I've been. I said, if we lose that and then we relocate, I said, we're just going to be immersed in this. And I was talking to my business coach this morning because I said, I'm going to have to pull back on some other external projects. I've got, he says, well, what is your lens of filtering? What you can do and can't do? I said, well, I said, we've talked about it at length. I said, if it doesn't spark joy, then I'm not doing it. If it was just for the purpose of earning money, I'm not doing it. And if it's something that is not going to, is going to fuck up my piece, then we're not doing that. And, you know, my wife, Sharon, and I had conversations about, okay, what does day-to-day look like, how do we manage this together, you know, when things come up? And I talk to somebody about helping them out, you know, with some of their socials, and I'm like, I don't want to be unreliable and it's going to stress me out if I think I'm going to be unreliable, even just for a couple of hours a week. So I'm going to pull back on that. And I hate that's not what I would normally do. But I'm like, I don't, it can't mess with, you know, when we, yeah, we need to be like in the bubble and he's like, that's a retention of your, yeah, your reflection of your growth that you can filter it through that lens and you're just not making arbitrary decisions. It's like, hey, is this filling my, so I have to protect my energy now? And is this filling my cup? And is this helping me? So, you know, my big gay overalls project fills my cup. The work I do coaching clients for this company and being involved and helping them have successful businesses, that fills my cup. So great. Those are my two priorities. Anything else, like I also run a business where I go out and capture people telling their life story and then I give that back to them. And you know what, it's like, I still enjoy that. So that fills my cup because sitting there and listening to somebody go through their life story is amazing and it's a privilege. But then if someone came to me and said, oh, can you create me some social media reels? I'm like, well, I can, but that's not what I'm going to do. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't, it affects my piece and that's my priority right now. It's like all I can control is us here and what our reactions and responses to things. So if I'm feeling overwhelmed and overwrought, which, you know, I have been this week and it's like, okay, how do we take the stress away? Like we go, we're going away on the weekend where we were going to take our new camper trailer and go camping, but it turned out there's a bit of fuckery with getting it registered and my wife said, listen, this is book, a hotel. Like we don't need our first camping trip. Like then we got to figure out how to open it and do all the stuff she goes. This week, it's too much. We're going to get a hotel. We're going while watching, we're doing the thing. She said, our first trip we'll do to the camping around 10 minutes down the road. We'll do it in a couple of weeks, no stress. The camper trailer is not going anywhere to the garage. That's a counselor. Yeah, all the time, but she's like, how can we make things simple right now? Well, everything's all new and we're figuring out routines. And then then we can start to go, okay, we've got that vetted in. Let's lay her in. But our primary value is our piece, like any and what sparks joy. But if I hadn't have done all the work that I've done and been through all the experiences, I wouldn't be in a place to do this. Right. I would just be sitting in the corner, rocking back and forth about now. Yeah, and I've done plenty of that. But it's people think, Oh, I wish I got to this point. Like we've often talked, like, I wish we'd met each other earlier in life. So we had more life together, but we know that we wouldn't have been. And we wouldn't have had this life and we would have had to do with that learning and growing together, which probably would have pulled us apart. Whereas she's done her healing. I've done mine. And we've got to this point where it's just the perfect storm of this now works. I'm ready to receive what she offers and I'm ready to eat. Yeah. So I don't begrudge my past experiences and journey because without that, but I wouldn't appreciate what I have now. And whilst I'm like, you know, I would like another 50 years or 60 years of it, that's OK, but all of that other stuff. But I think people look back on their journey and go. They resent it and they don't see it for that it can be on reflection. Quite beautiful and powerful that got them to this point where they're at right now, which you can't feel the level of peace that we feel now. If you haven't gone through that level of hell and worked through it. So I don't want to trigger people with this because I know triggered. I was by it when I wasn't ready to hear it. So, you know, practicing that for the audience. But, you know, I sat on this podcast and like cried to my friend last week, I think, being like, I'm so fucking grateful for that time. Because I've never felt this ever. I've never been able to be rational and work shit out and love myself. I mean, it took all this rapid, crazy, just unweaving and reweaving, you know, and and we were out the other day doing something that used to just make me really happy and I was like, I want to go home. And we did and he was like, what was that? And I was like, baby, you know, we've created such a good bubble and I've raised the whole fucking vibrational energy in this house, I want to be there. I want to go when we got in the car, I turned on my 432 Hertz, you know, shit. It was just like flinging my energy because I was like, okay, I'm kind of seeing now, like some of that shit, like used to make me happy. But now in home was not where I wanted to be for a long time because that meant kids depending on me and it was too much. I just couldn't do it. And so now, like, yeah, we have created a home where everybody is happy. Like we're just the whole energy of the household. And I heard a study recently that said mom is kind of the compass and the barometer of the house, you know, I've never felt that more than me not being so triggered by everything my kids are doing. So because and I've tried to explain it to them over and over. Like I have shame connected to not being a perfect parent and any time you're experiencing or hardness or a feeling that I am afraid of, it causes fear. And then I have to battle the fear and the shame. So I dismiss you because I'm trying to dismiss the feeling in myself. And I'm really sorry. And I'm, you know, I've been working on repair for that, but everybody's walking different around my house, everybody. And that's where I want to be is with the people like me, because it's too much. It costs too much to be around people who don't give a fuck about what you're doing. They would love if you could somehow give them a pill that you've bottled all this in. But it's the resentment you start to feel off certain people because they know that you're right and they know, they know they could do this too. They know they could. But it's scary and so they have to hate you for it. And then it's funny to watch the people who kind of made fun of you. When you first started on a journey like this, start to ask you for advice, you know? And I'm like, but I'm not even, I say all that with grace and understanding that I've been this person. So I get it, you know, I get and I'm happy to give the advice. If it's now there's some things I'm like, bitch, do you understand the fucking work I had to do to figure that shit out? I'm not giving that to you for free. But there are some things that it's like, here's your gift, you know? We all get to where we need to be when we're meant to get there. And like, I agree, Karen, my wife will often say, like, there are no mistakes in this life. Like you wind up where you're meant to be at any given point in time, crew, just, it's just meant to be. And when you are that whole thing, you know, when the student is ready, the teacher arrives. And you don't even know you're ready sometimes and something, you know? I remember I was listening to a Brene Brown podcast and she had Glenn and Doyle on and I hadn't read Untamed yet. And I was like, listening to them talk went, "Bark, that sounds like me." And then I read the book and I was like, "Oh, my God." Yeah. And I was like, so much stuff. And then I was like, and I think when she described in the book, like, the initial thing that she felt with Abby, like, across the room and like, I don't know why I stood up and said, sit here, like, didn't even know this person. And I was like, that's such a powerful thing, like, I want to feel that with somebody and I went, "Oh, that's because I'm gay." Yeah. Cool. But, you know, just reading that thing is like, you can navigate ending one relationship and becoming your authentic self, it doesn't have to be the way that she described her husband, you know, navigating the kids and the whole newness of everything, like, can be done. And I was like, well, it doesn't have to be a firestorm. And that's when I was like, "Oh," you know, and that was a... Yeah. All your fears were kind of getting extinguished one by one. Yeah. Right. And then I was very nervous. Again, I see someone else's walk to pass. That I didn't even know. When they say change days and save spaces when you can share your experiences. Yeah. Because, you know, I often talk to people who, you know, in the gym environment, you know, they're having an anxiety attack on that. I said, "And they're like, 'Oh, I'm just feeling a bit fluster.' No, no, no. You're having an anxiety attack. Let's put a name on it. Then it's not scary. It's nothing to hide from. And as soon as you name it and you put it out there, people are like, "Oh," like, it's like, the kids think there's a monster under the bed, so you turn on the light and it's a dust bunny. Oh, cool. Like, it goes away. That releases that power on you because you've named it and you've given it identity and spoken it out in the world rather than hiding it away and going, "Oh, no, I'm just feeling a bit frantic. No, you're having a panic attack and that's cool." Like, what's cool, what's, you know, what are you feeling that made you have this response? Right. Oh, you know, and getting people to come back to the present and don't know, no strategies, but it's like, "No, it's okay. We can call it what it is. You know, it's no big deal. I know it's a big deal when you're experiencing a bit." Yeah, but you can be not even saying, "This is this. It's not just bluster." Yeah. And you're not going to die and it's okay. Yeah. We're going to talk about it and you're going to come out in 10 minutes and you're going to be calmer and we're going to get on with what, you know, mid-workout. Yeah. You're going to finish the workout and life's going to go on. It's not a big deal from that perspective, but you're making it this giant, God, if someone sees I'm having a panic attack as an example, like, they'll think less of me or they'll think I'm weak or do that. Like, I'm not thinking anything about you right now, except how can I help you navigate this right now? Right. And having that great thinking that if you are trying really hard to hide something, it causes way more pain than just saying it. Well, which is, you know, for the majority of my life, I carried all my pain on my body in excess weight. Like, that's, you know, and you think that nobody can see what's happening, it's like, you walk it around with it, tack to your arse bitch, like it's there, like, like everybody knows. Like, it's, you're trying to hide something by putting on these layers and it's just like, you think you're hiding. We try something. Yeah. Yeah. But you just, and some of it's like we said earlier, some of it's subconscious. Yes. You just do things to, like, I'm insulating and protecting, it's creating a whole heap of other issues, but you're not really like, you know, yeah, you're just eating because it feels good. Yeah. And it's just harder than to dig through. You've got both physical layers and mental layers that are becoming green behind things and it's great. But once you can start to be authentic and be you and like I still, like I'm only, I think eight episodes into my podcast and I'm still uncomfortable, like, going, and that's why, like, I think, oh, I'll just, this is in my brain. I'm just going to talk about it for 30 minutes, whatever was in my brain, because I was primarily for me to document my thoughts and journey and, and progress and clarify thoughts in my head. So I'm like, well, I'm not coming up with dot points and show notes and this is where it's going to be today. Like, I turn on the laptop, I turn on my light and I go, so I was thinking about this earlier and then that's kind of, and if someone listens to that and goes, yeah, that makes sense to me or they think she's got to head up or ask cool. It's not actually for you. Once it's out in the room, it's an out of my business, what happens to it. Right. Exactly. I've been saying that too. And how I can't control how you respond to my information, like we're not being, we're not deliberately trying to create a people or upset people or be offensive, but you're going to filter it through your layers and I'm saying it through mine. And cool. If it doesn't resonate, then there's a million other places for your ears and eyeballs to find something to connect with. Absolutely. And I'm just believing too, like the more I share of myself, like reading tarot, things like that. I was so scared to say, I live in Oklahoma. It's like fucking whatever it's a shit show and I was scared because, you know, I didn't want to get canceled before I even started, but then I was like, what baby? First of all, you're a badass bitch. So don't forget that. And second of all, you are powerful as fuck and people fucking need your message. So the right people don't give a fuck about any of that and they're going to flock to you because you are living your fucking truth. Thank you for that conversation. Awesome. Thank you. Where are you? Where are you at right now? I'm in Australia. So awesome. All right. Well, I'll see you on the socials. All right. Have a good night. All right. Thanks. Bye. Hey, what do you say, listen first and foremost, please make sure that you have provided this podcast with a five star rating on whichever platform that you are listening. If you want to support the show, please rate, like and share. Also like comment and share on any social media posts that you see for me on Instagram or Facebook or TikTok, please follow the podcast Facebook, emotionally unavailable podcast. You can shop my foot online, store or schedule a one on one with me emotionally unavailable podcast.org. I'm offering what I'm calling non traditional counseling, astrology reading and tarot readings and self publishing services. And thank you so much for listening to the emotionally unavailable podcast. Hey guys, hope you liked that episode with me and Lisa. Again, I will have all the information in the show notes and that will be all for today. Have a great weekend and until next time, let's all just keep swimming.
