Coaching for Leaders - Talent Management | Leaders
696: The Habits That Hold Leaders Back, with, Marshall Goldsmith
The title of Marshall Goldsmith's most famous book is "What Got You Here Won't Get You There." On this episode, Marshall and I explore the habits many of us have that are almost certainly holding us back. This is Coaching for Leaders, Episode 696. Produced by Innovate Learning, Maximizing Human Potential. Greetings to you from Orange County, California. This is Coaching for Leaders, and I'm your host, Dave Stahoveak. Leaders aren't born, they're May, and this weekly show helps you discover leadership wisdom through insightful conversations. Today, a conversation with one of the leading coaches on how we can do a better job of moving forward in our careers and avoiding the habits that tend to hold us back. I'm so pleased to welcome back to the show Marshall Goldsmith. He's one of the world's leading executive coaches. Marshall has written 56 books selling over 3 million copies, including 8 bestsellers and 4 New York Times bestsellers. "What Got You Here Won't Get You There? How Successful People Become Even More Successful" is one of my favorite books. He's been ranked twice by Thinkors50 as the number one leadership thinker in the world, and ranked the number one executive coach in the world for over a decade. Marshall's newest venture is MarshallGoldsmith.ai, allowing anyone to gain his wisdom, expertise, and opinions in an interactive Q&A format. Marshall, what a pleasure to have you back. Oh, thank you so much for inviting me, honored to be here. I have independently decided that you have won the award I just made up called Best Title of a Leadership Book Ever for What Got You Here Won't Get You There. I've lost track of how many conversations I've had about the book over the years. It's been so helpful to so many. It's really incredible and I picked it up right about the time it came out. I remember reading it. I remember viscerally like the habits in the book which we're going to get into, and I remember this line that you begin the book with. You say, "Among the myriad wise things I have heard Peter Drucker say the wisest was, 'We spend a lot of time teaching leaders what to do.' We don't spend enough time teaching leaders what to stop." That's a key distinction, isn't it? If that comment really led to the book, what got you here won't get you there, and there's something I talk about in the book called the Superstition Trap. Successful feet will fall into a Superstition Trap. What does that mean? I behave this way, I am successful, therefore I'm successful because I behave this way wrong. You behave, everyone I coach is not successful, they are mega successful because of doing many things right, and in spite of doing some things that are stupid. We all do stupid things all the time. We're successful in spite of these things, and the other problem with the Superstition Trap is I behave this way, I have been successful in the past, therefore behaving this way will make me successful in the future. Wrong again, the behavior that led to your success in the past may or may not lead to your success in the future. Yeah, it's a bit of a paradox, and early on in my career, I sort of assumed that the further along I got, and the people certainly who were further along than me and in roles of senior leadership, had a lot of stuff figured out. And one of the key points that you make in the book is that the higher you go, the more your problems are behavioral. Why is that? Well, if you look at the people I coach, they're all smart. I'm not really coaching any stupid people. They're all smart people, they're all technically competent, or they wouldn't be in their jobs. As they get promoted, more and more, they have to lead other people. Now, if you're the chief financial officer of a large organization, you don't necessarily need to be the world's expert on every element of finance. In fact, you cannot be. You have certain elements of finance, one person is an expert, another person, and a different person, and fourth person. Why? You can't be that expert in everything as you move into management. More and more, you need to let go of being the technical expert and become a leader. And then your issues are not technical issues. I'm the world's expert on finance or IT. Then your issues are people issues and behavioral issues. And so many of us, of course, get into senior leadership roles because we were experts in the technology, the discipline we learned. We were the top performer in that team, and all of a sudden, you get into a role of leadership, and it's an entirely different job. You may go to the same place, but the role's so different. Well, you know, you're making an excellent point. One of the greatest leaders I ever coached said, for the great individual, achiever is usually all about me. For the great leader, it's all about them. And making them transition from being a great achiever, as you mentioned, toward being a great leader, that can be tough for a lot of people. And it's the what got you here won't get you there because it is a different skill set. And the part of the book that I remember so clearly all the years ago when I read it and now coming back to it, like, still seems so fresh to me is the very beginning where you identify 21 habits that tend to hold us back from being effective. And particularly, as you mentioned, for successful people, moving up into roles of increasing responsibility, and the very first one on the list is winning too much. And you call this the most common behavioral problem in successful people and that it underlines nearly every other behavior problem. Tell me about what it looks like. Well, again, successful people by definition are winners. People listening to your podcast are winners. They're in leadership or interested in leadership. They're trying to educate themselves. Almost by definition, they're in a top small percent of all human beings. They're winners. So the listeners just podcast right now are winners. People like coach are mega winners. Here's the problem. Winners like to win. If it's important, we want to win. If it's meaningful, we want to win. If it's critical, we want to win. If it's trivial, we want to win. If it's not worth it, we want to win. It's hard for winners not to win. Now, let me give you a case study that almost all my clients fail and I will predict almost all listeners will fail this case study. You want to go to dinner at restaurant X, your husband, wife, partner, friend wants to go to dinner at restaurant Y, you have a heated argument. You go to restaurant Y was not your choice. The food tastes awful and the service is terrible. Option I critiqued the food, point out our partner was wrong. This mistake could have been avoided if only you'd listened to me, me, me. What would I do? What should I do? Well, almost all clients say, what would I do? Critiqued the food. What should I do? Shut up. Eat the stupid food. Try to enjoy it and have a nice night. Yeah. So winning too much. That is a classic problem of successful people. When you help people to see a little bit of that, that tendency in themselves, the tendency to argue about dinner when it doesn't matter, right, in the big scheme of things, what is it because so many other habits really do come from this one? What is it that helps people to start to just turn the corner a little bit and see that and change their behavior at least slightly? I'm going to talk about problem two, and then I'm going to answer both of them at the same time, which will answer your question. Sounds great. The second habit I talk about on the list is adding too much value. Now, I'm sure many people listening to us have technical backgrounds. Engineers are the worst. I went to engineering school myself. I have undergrad degree in math, an honorary PhD engineer, and it's hard for technical people not to constantly add value. What does that mean? I'm young, smart, enthusiastic. I come to you with an idea. You're my boss. Well, you think it's a great idea rather than just saying great idea or natural tendencies to say, that's a nice idea. Why don't you add this to it? Well, the problem is the quality of the idea may go up 5%. My commitment to execute just went down 50%. It's no longer my idea, boss. Now it's your idea, incredibly difficult for smart, successful people not to add value. One of my good coaching clients was named JP Garnier. He retired a few years ago as CEO of a drug company, Glaxo Smith Cline. I asked JP, what did you learn about leadership as the CEO of this huge company? He said, I learned a very challenging lesson. And everyone listening this lesson will become more important in your life every time you get promoted. He said, my suggestions become orders. Every time we get promoted, more and more of our suggestions start becoming orders. Now he said, if they're smart, they're orders. If they're stupid, they're orders. If I want them to be orders, they are orders. And if I do not want them to be orders, they are orders anyway. My suggestions become orders. For nine years, I trained the animals in the United States Navy. It was the first thing I teach new animals to get that star. Your suggestions become orders. Animals don't make suggestions. An animal makes a suggestion. What is the response? I, sir, that suggestion is an order. Now back to your question. What do I teach people and how do I get better at this? I ask JP, what's the one lesson I taught you? It helped you be a better leader, have a happier life. He said, you taught me one lesson, help me be a better leader and have a happier life. It will answer your good question. What's it? I said, what was it? He said, before I speak, breathe, breathe, think, and ask myself one question. Is it worth it? Is it worth it? Now he said, as the CEO of Glaxell Smith Klein, 50% of the time, if I had the discipline to stop and breathe and ask, is it worth it? What do I decide? Am I right? Maybe? Is it worth it? No. And he didn't say he never added value. He said about half the time he didn't add value. At work, stop and breathe. Is my comment going to improve this other person's commitment? If the answer is no, breathe again. Is it worth saying, at home, breathe, is my comment going to improve this relationship with the person I love? If the answer is no, really, should you be saying it? Well, a really important discipline. It's such a simple thing in a way, and yet simple is not always easy. Is it to stop and take that pause and actually ask, is it worth it? I'm thinking about this question and like the discipline to stop and to ask it. Is it enough to stop and ask that question for yourself, or is there also some aspect of like thinking about what are the indicators I notice and what comes up for me when I stop and pause to decide if it is worth it or not? Number one, we're not talking about battling with perfect. We're talking about battling with zero. Most people never stop and think at all. I just hope you do anything your way ahead of the game. Yeah, sure. The reality is, look, if something inside you tells you is, should I should I do this? And in many cases, the answer is you shouldn't do it. If somebody inside you causes you to start questioning yourself, there's probably a reason. So just stop and breathe and ask yourself that question. One of the other habits you point out is the tendency for successful people to start with in responses, no, but or however. What's problematic about these words? I have a lot of fun with this one. I find my clients $20 every time I talk to them and they start a sentence with no, but or however, if I talk to you, especially if I'm trying to give you advice, first word in the mouth, no. What are you saying? Well, I don't want to hear this, but what does butt mean, disregard what you said? Very bad habit. And we do it over and over without hearing it. One of my clients is stubborn and opinionated. I'm reviewing his 360 feedback report. He said, but Marshall, I said, that's free. I said, if I ever talk to you again, you start a sentence with no, but or however, I'm gonna find you $20. I said, but Marshall, 20, no, 40, no, no, no, 60, 80, 100. He lost 420 bucks in an hour and a half. At the end of the hour and a half, he said, thank you. I had no idea. He said, I did that 21 times with you throwing it in my face. How many times would I have done that had you not been throwing it in my face 50, 100? No wonder people think I'm stubborn. He got so much better at being a good listener, just learning that. I had a client years ago that we got into a conversation about this and he said to me, his dad had taught him that if you're ever in a conversation with someone and they use the words, but however, or nevertheless, to ignore everything they said prior to those words and just listen to what was said after. Again, I've thought about that so many times over the years and listen through the filter of that advice, and it is fascinating how accurate it is when you listen to people's thoughts and thinking using that lens. We know I never really thought about that particular application of the concept, but I love it. Let me give you another one. Nest don't say that's great, but we're worse of that at home than work. Kid comes home from school with a report card. Daddy, mommy, look at my report card from school. Five times I made the highest grade, one time I made almost the highest grade, but for not careful, what do you say, Daddy, mommy, that's great, but why don't you get the high grade every time? It was a kid thing. It was great, but whatever jerk like you for a father, and I like your friend's idea. I never thought about applying it as a coach. I never thought about applying it in the fact that, yeah, you can ignore the first part of that conversation. That's just getting ready for the punchline. Yeah, I had never thought about it either until they said that, and when I listened in conversation like, "Oh, it's interesting how you really do hear what people really want to say and what they're really thinking." One of the other points that you make on this, on watching out for these words specifically is really actually being aware when you're using those words and you're actually trying to agree. I think there's something there that's significant about this. This is amazing to so many people. The most common phrase uttered by smart, successful people when people tell us something we agree with is, "No, I agree with you." No, I agree with you. Some of you know it's a great idea. No, I think it's fantastic. It's so fantastic. Why don't we say no? Most people don't hear ourselves say this. You start listening for this. You will hear it over and over and over again, hundreds of times. How do we do this? All right. I'm the manager. You say, "No, I think it's a great idea." You know what that no means? No, I already knew that. No, you see, I already knew and understand that and agree with it. You're confusing me with someone who you think may not, may need to hear you right now. So why don't you just be quiet? You see, it's so hard for us to hear someone tell us something we already know without us pointing out we already know it. As a leader, somebody comes up to you with an idea. You think it's a great idea. Just say great idea. You don't have to communicate. You already knew it. You don't already have to communicate. You thought of it before. It's not a contest. Just say great idea. And one of the things that you point out, I mean getting back to where we started, which is stopping some things rather than starting is rather than trying to be a wonderful, deep listening, empathetic, emotional, intelligent leader, which of course we all want to be. It's actually way easier to just stop being a jerk. Stop doing the no, but however, if you can discipline yourself just to start there, that's a huge stop. Just ask is it worth it before you talk, that goes a long way. One of the other habits you warn us about is playing favorites. Where do successful people get in trouble with this? Well, number one, every time you get promoted, more and more people suck up. And everybody says, I hate suck ups. Oh, I hate suck ups. I hate people that, you know, blah, blah, blah. Do you play favorites? Oh, I would never play favorites. We all say these words, right? If nobody thinks they play favorites, why does so much favoritism go on? If we don't reinforce suck ups, why are so many people sucking up all the time? It's because we don't realize we're doing it. So I have a wonderful test with people. This is great fun. When everyone listening to take the test, if you have a dog, what's your dog's name? People say, spot or spiffy or whatever the dog's name is, then ask, do you love the dog? Oh, I love my dog. Then ask a question, your dog lovers, who gets the most unqualified positive recognition in your home? Your husband or wife, your kids or your dog? Well, and about 90% of the cases, guess who wins the contest? The dog. The dog. Yeah. And I say, why do you love your dog more than the rest of your family? Everybody says, no, of course, I was supposed to know, no, no. Why does the dog get the most positive recognition? The dog doesn't talk back. The dog's always happy to see me. If I come home late, that dog is happy to see me. If I come home late and drunk, the dog doesn't care. The dog is a suck up. Well, we all reinforce people who reinforce us. And the higher up we go, this does not become less true. It's more true. All suck up more and more and more every time you get promoted, your jokes get funnier. They laugh at your stupid jokes. They pretend you're smart. And we all say, we hate that stuff. Let me tell you what we hate. We hate blatant suckups. We hate obvious suckups. That's embarrassing to us. What we don't hate is good suckups. Well, you see, the good suckup doesn't look like a suckup. The good suckup never looks like they're sucking up and we never know what's going on. Two of the greatest leaders I ever met in my life would tell you the biggest mistake was the person they recommended as a successor. And in both cases, it was a very slick person, very good sales person, a person who played them and they had no idea what was going on. And these are two of the most brilliant leaders I ever met, CEOs of huge companies. How do you know when that's happening to you when you're falling into that trap? Well, I give people four guidelines and it doesn't always work, but it helps. It's four questions. Number one, take your direct reports, rank order them four ways. Number one, how much do they like me? Now, you do not know how much they like you, but how much do you think they like you? Number two, how much are they like me? How much do they remind me of that ever so lovely and wonderful me? A lot of engineers play favorites with people they don't like. So, you know, he's a jerk, but he's an engineer. Oh, she's a great person, not an engineer. Well, they didn't realize they're playing favorites. That's blatant favoritism. How much are they like me? Number three, what's their contribution to the company and our customers? And number four, how much positive recognition do I give them? How much positive personal recognition? Just listen to the way you talk to people all day. Listen to the way you talk to people all day and start evaluating. Is this recognition a function of they're doing a great job or is recognition a function of A, they like me or B, they remind me of myself? And at about 15 to 20% of the cases, you're going to start getting some sad realization. Wait a minute. What am I doing here? Back to our reminder of just stopping, right? Like you invited us earlier, is this worth it? And stopping and asking a few of these questions with the people working with like, it puts pause and puts the thought in there of like, hey, where might the blind spot be for me? Exactly. Exactly. Look, you see us at home all the time, you got two kids. One kid says, I love you, mommy and daddy. You're wonderful. You're special. The other kid's a wise guy. Which kid gets the most recognition that is very seldom a close contest. You warn us also about an excessive need to be me. What do you mean by that? Very important concept. I teach my clients, do not stereotype yourself. We had this bad habit of stereotyping yourself. The phrase that's just the way I am is this incurable genetic defect or something. I'll be coaching, so I can't listen on a bad listener. I've never been able to listen. I can't listen. I look in their ears. You got something stuck in your ears. Why can't you listen? You don't have some incurable genetic defect. This prohibiting you from being a good listener, you just haven't worked at it. Well, we talk about ourselves like, I'm no good at recognition. Why are you genetically mean? We talk about ourselves in this phrase that I call the real me. There's this real unchanging me that goes to the eternity that can't change. That's nonsense. We can all change. People couldn't change. And my job as a coach, I didn't get paid if they didn't get better. People couldn't change. I never get paid. Anybody can change unless you have an incurable genetic defect. So when someone stereotypes themselves, the first thing I do is I make them raise their hand and repeat it to me. My name is Joe. In the past, I did listen. In the future, I can listen better. I do not have an incurable genetic defect. They'll talk about yourself that way. I have heard so many times from people over the years. I'm sure you have too, Marshall, when trying to, working on getting better at something, they'll say, I can't do that because it's like putting on a show. It's acting. It's not really who I am. I'm faking it. When you get that kind of pushback, how do you respond to it? Very simple. I'll say, who do you want to be? You can be who you develop, you want to be. You don't have to be who you have been in the past. And by the way, if you want to remain who you have been in the past, keep speaking exactly as you are right now because you're going to dramatically increase the odds you're going to be that way. Your problem is an identity problem. You've been programmed to believe this is the real you. Why does it have to be the real you? Somewhere along the line, somebody told you this is who you are. Well, okay, and most of it was good. And keep that part. The other part, you really need to carry it around the rest of your life because mommy and daddy told you that's the way you were. Let me give you an example. Please. This is called identity, programmed identity. I was working in a hospital and I said, how many of you had brothers and sisters? Most people did. How many of you were programmed to believe you were the responsible one? They all did. Everyone raised their hands. They're all supposed to be responsible. Three women started crying. One woman said I'm sick of being responsible. I'm responsible for my husband, my kids, I'm responsible for my parents, siblings. I'm sick of being responsible. There's nothing wrong with being responsible. The problem is when you feel you always have to be responsible because that's who you are. Well, there's no genetic reason you have to be responsible. You've been programmed to believe that and it's good to be responsible most of the time. Just not all the time. You're programmed to believe you're smart. Fine. Nothing wrong with being smart. Nothing you have to prove how smart you are all the time. When you wrote the book, you listed 21 habits out. We fit on a few of them in this conversation. The 21st one, you called out separately and you said the habit that gets in people's way is goal obsession. You say it's not a flaw, it's a creator of flaws. What's different about this habit and what is it and why call it out separately? I'm actually going to redo the book. I'm going to an updated version where I spend a lot more time on goal obsession. There's another phrase for it is called addiction to achievement. In my book, The Earned Life, I talk about three elements for having a great life. One is aspiration. You need some sense of higher aspiration or purpose. Why am I doing this? Number two is called ambition. You need to be achieving something because everyone listeners calls an achiever. They want to achieve things, which is good and the achievement needs to be connected to that higher aspiration and three, that's your day-to-day action. You need to enjoy the process of a life itself. If you have a higher purpose, your achievements are connected to that higher purpose. Enjoy the process of life itself. You're winning. You're winning big in the game of life. Here's the problem, goal obsession. One of the great myths of once I achieve this, I will, followed by be happy, find peace, have my act together. Once I do this, everything's going to be okay. One of the things I learned is, I'm a student of Eastern philosophy and I've read a book called the Bhagavad Gita several times, or a poem called the Bhagavad Gita. The essence of the Gita is you never become attached to results. Never become attached to results. For two reasons. One, let's say you achieve the results. Fine. How much long-term peace and satisfaction does that bring? A day? Maybe. A week at the most. Next week. Next goal. The other thing is, you don't have total control over the outcomes. The important thing is, look, do your best, try to achieve, but don't make your ego tied up on the outcomes. Let me give you two examples. A great example. Albert Berlitt, one of my great coaching people. Albert was a CO-fizer. He was a CO-fizer. I called him up a few years ago. How's it going, Albert? Pretty good. Came up with that vaccine. I said, well, thank you. Albert might have saved my life. Big deal. I appreciate it. Employee engagement, all-time high, stock price, everything. Up, up, up. Wonderful news. Fantastic. What a year. I said, Albert, what's your problem? You said, I have a huge problem. I said, what is it? I said, next year. Next year. You think if you're a CEO, people care what you did last year that bought that stock? No. Didn't buy that stock based on what you did last year. I bought that stock because appreciation for next year. Well, if your value as a person is, I have to achieve more than last year. He can write it off. Whatever, have a year like that. The people on this call listening to you right now, I can tell you, listening to us, their problem is not being lost in aspiration or getting dreaming about stuff without achievement. That's not their problem. Their problem is not just, they're not video addicts or drug addicts. Their problem is not being addicted to day-to-day action and enjoyment. The problem everybody's listening to us right now is pretty much obsession with achievement, and it's good in a lot of ways. The only thing is, it's never going to bring you happiness. It's never going to bring you peace. You cannot achieve your way to happiness. You're going to achieve your way to peace. Do you really think a little more is going to get it over the line? Yeah. I so appreciate you coming back to the lessons from this book after all these years, and I was thinking about it for two reasons. One is you mentioned you're redoing the book, doing an update, which I can't wait to read, and also because of the new project you're working on, MarshallGoltsmith.ai. Like so much of this project is about the library, the wisdom that you've put together over the years, not only your own, but from so many others. Tell me a bit about what you're doing with this and how do folks access it and benefit from it if they'd like to? Well, this is an amazing project to feel very, very fortunate to be able to do this. I've spent X hundred hours on this thing, and it's amazing. First thing everyone listened, do me a favor, go to my name, MarshallGoltsmith, MarshallGoltsmith.ai and start, it's free. Start asking questions. As you know, one of my missions in life is to give away everything I know to as many people as I can. I'm 75 years old and a little more money is not going to make me any happier anyway. I'm not going to get another house or car or anything else. My kids are fine. So I just want to give everything away. Well, I'm very lucky because I've got somebody who's really kind of generous fractal analytics in India's pain for this. It is mind-blowing how good it is. It's amazing. And it doesn't just answer trivial questions. This thing can answer deep questions. For example, if you ask a, they'll ask you a deep question. How is your work related to Buddhist philosophy? My work is related to Buddhist philosophy in several ways. Firstly, the practice of mindfulness, which is central to Buddhism, is something I encourage in my clients. By being mindful, leaders can become more self-aware and make more thoughtful decisions, which is essential for effective leadership. Secondly, compassion is a key element in both my coaching practice and Buddhist teachings. I stress the importance of empathy and understanding in leadership, which helps in building strong, collaborative teams and positive workplace cultures. Honestly, the Buddhist concept of impermanence resonates with the dynamic nature of business and leadership. I help my clients to embrace change and adapt to new challenges, which is crucial for personal and professional growth. By integrating these principles into my coaching, I aim to help leaders develop a more holistic and balanced approach to their roles and lives. Amazing. Amazing. That wasn't me. Yeah. Yeah. That was my AI bot talking. It's mind-blowing. Yeah. It is. When you look at, like you said, the content and just the library of work, and then you pair it with the technology that's emerging on AI and so many things we've been talking about on the show, it's really amazing what can come together. Of course, the piece that's so critical here is your generosity. For folks who don't know, I think we've probably had maybe close to 100 guests on the show. I don't think I'm overestimating that. It are somehow connected with you, have been a co-author, have been part of your 100 coaches program. I mean, you have been so generous of giving back and supporting so many others in this thing we're all working on and getting better at leadership. Thank you so much for all your generosity in this. Oh, well, thank you so much. In the spirit of learning, we're all learning, we're all growing. I often ask people what they've changed their minds on, as you know. When you think about this book, what got you here won't get you there, and coming back to it now almost 20 years later, what have you changed your mind on about it? Well, you know, I'm doing a new generation of the book, and I will say so much as changes is more what I call refinements. For example, one of the key problems today, which is much greater than ever, is distraction. I mean, just distraction is a huge issue for the people I deal with. We have constant barrage of technology, media, whatever. We live in a world of near constant distraction. So I'm going to talk a little bit more about that. Another challenge, especially at high levels of leadership is social media. I mean, look, the reality is people have to be careful what they say. I mean, sometimes people just make these naive comments like, well, just say what's on your mind. Well, not really. I mean, I'm working with people who run multi-billion dollar companies. That stuff can go on social media. Anything they say can be broadcast to the world in five seconds. You can't just get up and talk. You have to think. You have to be a lot more sensitive about what you say. One other change that's occurred, I wrote an article in Chief Executive Magazine about this is I said, look, leaders have become better and better and better, and their feedback is becoming worse and worse and worse. See what happens in the future is we're managing entirely different workforce now. And this balance of power between leader and followers quite different. In the past, people ask me, are leaders more bullies than ever? What a stupid question. Ask the people to build the pyramids about bullies. Yeah, they had whips and they were bullies. Well, leaders are nicer in hospitals. The old hospital leaders used to yell and scream at people swear, Adam, those just part of life. Those days are gone. In fact, the way today you get fired as the hospital leaders become less sexist, less racist, more respectful, better leaders, their feedback is worse and worse. By the expectations of the workforce are so much different today than they were. Before the expectations were low, I didn't expect much out of leaders. Those days are gone to that a huge change has occurred in the last, especially the last 20 years. Marshall Goldsmith is the author of what got you here won't get you there, how successful people become even more successful. And of course, the creator of Marshall Goldsmith dot AI. Marshall, thank you so much. As always for your work. Oh, thank you so much for inviting me. I had a wonderful time. If this conversation was helpful to you three related episodes, I'd recommend one of them is episode 442, the way to be more self aware. Tasha Eurek was my guest on that episode thinking about that conversation for two reasons. One, she's one of the folks involved in the 100 coaches program with Marshall Goldsmith. And secondly, the topic of that conversation, the way to be more self aware, Tasha and expert on that walked us through in detail in that conversation exactly the things we can do as first steps to build that self awareness. And there's echoes of that throughout this conversation and some of the habits that many of us struggle with as leaders, how do we genuinely become more self aware at what's happening with us so that we can do a better job of leading others, lots of tactics in that conversation. Again, that's episode 442. Also recommended episode 611, the power of courage in leadership growth. George Elzate was my guest on that episode, one of our Academy alums on that Saturday cast. George and I talked about the need for courage in our leadership growth because as Marshall's talked about and what got you here won't get you there, the last role, the prior roles, the things that made us successful are often not the things that are going to make us successful in this role. We work for the same organization, we may have the same people around us. But the job is entirely different and it requires a different skill set in order to grow that skill set. Yes, we need to do all the things we talked about in this conversation and a healthy dose of courage as well. George, a great example of courage in leadership and nudging himself forward on changing his behaviors in order to step into new roles and new opportunities while he tells his story in episode 611. And then finally, I'd recommend episode 648 with Jacob Morgan. What vulnerable leadership sounds like? Sometimes we hear that we need to be more vulnerable and Marshall talks about in his book, the excessive need to be me that some leaders tend to fall into that trap. And sometimes we hear vulnerability and we think, why just need to talk more about myself? I just need to share more. And yes, there is an aspect of that. But as Jacob talks about in that episode, there's also a big second piece as well, which a lot of leaders miss when they start working on being more vulnerable. We talk about that in detail in episode 648. All of those episodes you can find on the coachingforleaders.com website. And if you haven't yet, I'm inviting you to set up your free membership at coachingforleaders.com. That's going to give you access to the entire library I've heard since 2011, searchable by topic so you can find what's most relevant to you right now. And also, there's a lot in the library from some of the top thinkers, Marshall's been on the podcast now three times over the years, some of the other top thinkers like Simon Sinek and Daniel Goldman, I was thinking of today, especially in the context of this conversation on emotional intelligence and self-awareness, he's been on the show a couple times in the past, Patrick Lenzione, Amy Edmondson, all of them have talked about this concept of helping us to become more self-aware as leaders. They've all been on the show a few times before. You can find all of those conversations inside of the library at coachingforleaders.com. Take a few moments, visit there, set up your free membership. As soon as you do, you're going to have access to the entire suite of benefits. And if you've done that already and you're looking for more, coaching for leaders plus maybe your next step, just this past week, I wrote a journal entry on how to help your explanations land better. One of the things that leaders are called on to do is to answer the question of change. Often we are explaining things for the first time to others in the organization because that is the role of leadership to lead change. And yet, it's hard to explain things oftentimes when we're doing it for the first time and explain the complex to someone who may not have thought about it or seen it before. It's one of the most common questions I get is, how do I do a better job of explaining ideas in the recent journal entry? I talk about what are the two key steps you need in order to explain something well and to use an analogy effectively. It's one of the key pieces inside of coachingforleadersplus. For more, go over to coachingforleadersplus to find out all of the benefits inside and to get started. Coaching for Leaders is edited by Andrew Kroger. Production support is provided by Sierra Priest. I'm so glad to welcome next week to the show Maurice Ashley. He is chess's first black grandmaster and he's going to be teaching us about how to keep improving. Join me for that conversation with Maurice. Next week, then I'll see you back on Monday. [MUSIC] [BLANK_AUDIO]