[ Music ] >> Well, our next guest on today's Big Brand Radio Champagne Sunday shows Susan Hoffman. She is the author of "Grand Distance." It's a newly released book that focuses on the choices grandparents have to make when faced with blocks to visitation with grandchildren. I mean, there's so many issues, maybe a divorce, and suddenly -- oh, sorry. You can't see the grandchild anymore. You used to, but you can't, or maybe it can even start from the beginning. So, she's been a long time advocate on grandparents' rights. For grandparent grandchildren connection, she has a non-profit under the same name. It's advocate for grandparent grandchild connection, and you can keep up with them at grandparentchildconnect.org. Also, keep up with her other books. She was first on our show with Grand Wishes. She's also the author of "A Precious Bond." It won't happen again. No, it won't. Heck, no. I think a lot of women have been in that position before, and also, do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy? I choose happiness. >> Yeah. >> And very excited to have her back on the show. Grand Distance and her books are out now. You can get them on Amazon, Apple, Kobo, all of those places, but go right to grandparentchildconnect.org. So, welcome back, Susan. How are you? >> I'm fine. Thank you. Thank you for having me. >> Hey, it's good to have you back on the show. It's been a while. I know we've been working at this. We've been working at it. So, let's get the champagne out now, shall we? >> Yay. >> Having you back. And also, the work that you're doing in regards to grandparents and grandchildren of connection that's so important. So, before we get into Grand Distance, do you want to tell everybody just a little background of what led you into this world of even noticing that there needs to be a right for grandparents? >> Well, it was personal experience, and when I lost access and visitation to my own grandson, I didn't have anybody to talk to. I tried to talk to my friends and family, but nobody really understands unless they've gone through it. So, who am this little ad in a little throwaway paper in Laguna Beach, where I was living at the time. And I got a couple of responses. I was just asking if anybody had any grandparent visitation issues, and to call this number, we would form maybe a little group or something. And that's how it started was just a few people, grandparents kind of came out of the woodwork. And there's just such a need to share with someone and to get some support with somebody that's been through it. So, then from there, we started a larger group, and then it turned into along the way. Then I legislated to change the law for grandparents in California following a step here in adoption. And before that, California didn't have that code. They had several states don't have it, but most do, that allows a grandparent to continue visitation or relationship with her grandchild following a step here in adoption. So, that happened, and then I formed a nonprofit 501(c)(3), and it became an organization pretty soon. A website, and people were calling and emailing from different states, and they still do. >> Well, well, so this is something you're going through in California, but that bill that you worked on isn't everywhere across the country, right? >> Yes. It's in most states, I believe, it was -- it just kind of fell through the cracks in California. And when I did sponsor that bill, it went through the California legislature through the consent calendar, which means it wasn't opposed, and it was kind of just flew into it very quickly. It bypassed a lot of obstacles, and yeah, it has 120 legislators supporting it. So, because it makes sense, you know, when a grandchild has a relationship with a grandparent, loving adult in their lives for five years or so or longer, you can't rip that away from them. And that's exactly what happened with that law. Once there was a step-parent adoption, then it got rid of the grandparent as well. They were no longer recognized in a court of law as the grandparent. >> Wow. That's hard on the child, because then they don't know. I mean, even like, when you look at divorce, that's really hard on a child. They start to blame themselves sometimes, or not understand it, but they know something's wrong, but they don't know, get it, you know, depending on the age. But, you know, then if the grandchild parent is gone, that makes it even harder. I think it's emotionally hard for the grandparent, but for the children. I mean, I know some friends, you know, that are grandparents, and a lot of times, they're the ones who have the time to take, you know, the grandchildren to a botanical garden, or give them extra education and actually some of the life lessons that they need. >> It's a choice. They're there because they want to be. They don't have to be. >> Yes, exactly. And they're more than babysitters, you know, for sure, way more than that. >> And something you just alluded to that when there's a divorce, the children blame themselves. The same thing goes with the grandparent. When the grandparent suddenly disappears, the children want to know, wonder if they did something wrong. >> And why doesn't grandma come back anymore? What did I do? I think she liked me anymore. So, I think that's the greatest pain for any grandparent is wondering what the child will think. >> Especially when the parents, there's a lot of parents tend to make this a treat to go see grandparents. You know, it's an exciting day, and depending on how often you see your grandparents, you know, some children only see their grandparents at holiday dinners, you know. So, it's kind of rough on them when you decide, oh, well, no more visits for you. It's really punishing the child for something the parents did. >> Yeah. Well, I've always said grandparent rights are really children's rights. >> Yeah, right. Exactly. Exactly. And it goes well into there. I mean, even what about teenagers? If it happens as a teenager, doesn't that also? Or is it really mostly a certain age group, a younger age group? >> I don't think it matters. You know, except when they're a teenager, they accept it in a different way than a child does, because then they socialize and have their own outside friendships and activities. But it's still staying. It still is. If they just handle it differently, they maybe they understand a little bit more than a younger child would. >> So, when we go to grand distance, tell us a little bit more with that, because you've had a lot of books since we last spoke. And so, tell us a little bit more about grand distance, how that has kind of grown from grand wishes. >> Grand distance is revealing more of my personal story, whereas grand wishes is more of an introductory and it was a summary of many different things, including the legislation and all that. And then a precious bond was more of a guideline by that time I learned chips and communication skills and what to do and what not to do. So, that's where a precious bond comes in. And then this one, since my grandson is over 18 now, I was able to reveal what I did to see him. Whereas, if I had done it when he was younger, I would have gotten in a lot of trouble or maybe gotten a restraining order against me. >> Yeah, no, I'm sorry. >> No, we want you safe. You think about you sharing the story, it's personal, but I think that's something that is, when it gets down to it, you need the literature that can help you get through things, all the legal tape and emotional drama that goes with it. But there's nothing like a book where someone else shares your story that you can go man, somebody else, it helps you move forward when somebody else has been through a situation you have been through and you don't feel alone and then you feel a little bit more empowered and more connected to the world when you read someone's personal story. >> Yes, and because grandparents don't know what to do, as I said in the book, they go in so many different directions, if not all of them. At one point, where you just become immobile when this first happens and you just shut yourself up in the house and you stand bad and just sob and grief, the loss and the court and so on. But I decided that I wanted to see him grow up. I didn't want to miss, I didn't want to wait until he was 18 and go from five years old to 18. I wanted to see him each year of his life. And I wanted to make sure he was okay, it was kind of a way of watching over him to know that he was a fine growing young man and a happy child. And then the selfish part was me wanting to see him grow up. I wanted to see each year. So I saw him from a distance and I got a hold of his school field trip. The schedule. And then I went in to the wig store and got the wig and the disguise and bought the camera and just went under cover, under cover grandma. So see him. And I just showed up at these different activities. The zoo, the LA zoo, the performance, the Christmas performance at a high school and museum. And he knew while you were doing this that you were there? Oh no. Oh no. No, you didn't do that. You did not see me. I only saw him. I couldn't risk that. Well, well, you become grandchild. You know, but in a good way. I mean, it's in a good way. But were you able to write letters? Because it's something too. I mean, are you able to do email correspondence, that kind of thing? No. When the mother, the biological mother, and the adoptive father ended up getting a divorce. They included a portion of their divorce that said that neither one of them would allow me to see him. Well, well, before that, before the divorce, I just was too scared to let him see me. He was too little. You know, he was five years old, six years old. Oh, I saw grandma Susan today at the zoo. You know, I couldn't risk that. And then after he was when he was eight, I got to see him for a short period of time, when the dad and the mom were getting a divorce and he allowed me back into Jacob's life. And then the mom found out and she just put her foot down and she made him find this paper saying that they would both keep me away. So that would be no contact whatsoever. No cards, no letters, no gifts, no contact. And I just gave, I think a hundred feet away or something like that. I don't know. Well, that's like it being treated like a criminal. Like, why exactly? Why does that order? Yeah, me. It was between the two of them because she was angry that he let me back into Jacob's life at eight years old. Oh, I see. So this goes back to the two parents fighting at the end of the day. The two parents were fighting and because the dad said she's doing to meet, she's treating me the way she treated you. And so he called and he said, I want you back in Jacob's life. This was wrong to keep your way for three years. So he let me back in and it only lasted like six or seven months because the mom wants control of the situation. And so she stepped in and made the divorce difficult for him and wouldn't allow it to go forward without him signing that paper. So I'm in their divorce decree. And yeah, it's amazing. It's amazing. You know, because I think really selfish. It is really so selfish of the woman. It really is. To deny that child of another adult that loves him. Yeah, that's, you know, definitely makes you wonder who's interested she put first on the day-to-day basis. Yeah, that's, that's a rough, that's a rough thing to go through. You know, when, when I think about, you know, there's some grandparents aren't the best grandparents. Like, you know, I know a grandparent who walked through drunk, walked through a plate glass window drunk. And so no, that's a problem. This is a different, you know, scenario. And you know, I, you know, I just even think of a family we just stayed with on a farm stay. And you know, it's like the whole, it's like a village. They're all together. They're all retired teachers and they're teaching the kids. And I mean, this is like a village. And it was the coolest experience to see that happen. And I think America has a lot of that, but then it can get taken away at any point. And that's a really rough thing. Because I just always looked as grandparents as being the person you ran to when you fell down. Yes, the cookies. We do want the cookies. But there was also like granddad teaching you to fish. There's grandma teaching you there's just this teacher that isn't the same as your parent parent teacher. You know what I mean? It's not like they're going, did you do your homework? Unless they're raising you, right? Because some grandparents raised children 100 percent. But there's this extra education saying that grandparents are fun about versus the parent depending on the age. Do you know what I mean, Susan? Yeah, like in grand distance, I found all those quotes and little poems about grandparents. You know, we inserted those into the book. Because it's so true. You know, all the different little quotes that you come across about grandparents and how important they are in the child's life. And yeah, I don't know, you know, like they come back to as teenagers. I know teenage girls that end up going to stay with grandma because they may have messed up a few things, you know, or have been in a bad relationship. And I know you've written about, you know, abusive relationships too. But sometimes grandma's house is like the place of solace where you can get back on your two feet and enjoy the joys of just making a really good cup of tea and sitting at the kitchen table and having those conversations that you need to have. But moving forward, you know. So I look at that too. The relationship with grandparents, it's life long, you know. I have a friend. I'm conditional love. Yeah. And this is an Italian proverb. If nothing is going well, call your grandmother. That says it all. Yes, exactly. You need to have a good laugh. You know, I remember I called my grandmother when I was in South Africa. And boy, did I get in trouble for that phone bill. I just decided, oh, I can learn how to use the telephone. Look at this. I learned how to dial internationally from South Africa to America. I really, I got in trouble for that. But we did see her after that. So that was good. But and if I didn't, I wouldn't have talked to my gig, Nana. So that was good because she passed away like from me after that. But so in a way, the phone bill was worth it right now. Sure. But they are. I mean, I used to, you know, send my grandmother all these writings and, you know, it's like, you can bombard your grandparents with stuff. You know, they're not as busy sometimes. It just is all dependent, you know, and I think it's part of the village. And when there's a breakup in the family, part of what can heal a family to move forward and keep that unity is the grandparent grandchild. And it could be stabilizing for things. Neutral. And it's a neutral thing. You know, it helps everybody. If you keep somebody, you know, instead of spreading, you know, the dislike and all the bad feelings, you can have neutral ground. And I think it's important for kids. What's your relationship? I mean, if you don't mind asking what you've written a book on this, though, on being stalker grandma, undercover grandma's far better. But yeah, yeah, soccer is not good. We don't want to say that. But it's, you know, but what your grandson's, you know, now that he knows, what's your relationship like with that? Well, you know, I did see him when he was eight, so he could process that and he's eight is different than five. You know, he had a memory of me from eight. So then when he became a teenager, he asked about me. And we reconnected because he wanted to see me. And it was his idea. And so I ended up seeing him, you know, maybe we'd spend courses old brother couldn't know about it. So but he kind of liked that cloak and dagger by the time he was a teenager. He liked sneaking around like that. So I would pick him up on a corner and we'd go to Starbucks. And that's where he would open his Christmas gift so that nobody knew about it. And then when he was 18 or when he was, I guess, 17, when he graduated from high school, he got me a tiffet. And I attended his graduation. Wow. That's awesome. You know, I mean, I think I would be like, actually, and because I, I'm a journalist and I've had my press pass, so I went down on the field. So that his mom wouldn't, wouldn't see me. And I just, you know, I shot photos of him and I was close to him during the whole ceremony. And he knew how much I cared for him. The fact that I was down there with him during the whole graduation, I had a big hat on and all that. So I can respect my face. And then, yeah, so I continued to see him ever since he was a teenager. That's awesome. You know, and I think, you know, the fact that you didn't stop caring for him, you know, just didn't walk away. Says so much about your love for him. And, you know, his brother, and I think that's something, you know, grandparents don't mess with him. And they've been around the block. And she's a journalist. Don't mess with him. And don't. She'll create a new bill. Really, parents need help from grandparents. The parents need it, too. They really do. There's a lot of guidance, usually, that comes with grandparents. They've done the same thing. They've gone through the child rearing process. They, you know, they can really lend a hand in in many ways. So it's kind of really, you know, cut off your nose despite your face kind of thing. Well, I think now also that's hard to understand, isn't it? That, would just let that part of it go. And, you know, having the help from a grandparent, but that they, when they cut them off, you know, then a lot of them just don't care about that help, like, yeah. Well, you know what's sad about it, too, is these family traditions that are passed down, or knowing that, hey, this baby burps this way or has like a polygy thing that maybe runs in the family and the grandma's going to know exactly what to do, you know. So there's those child rearing moments. But there's also family traditions and family history that gets cut off by not knowing your grandparents. Yeah. You know, who were they? You know, it's like you start to realize, you start to dig into family history, and you'll find out, you know, if you watch finding your roots like TV show, you'll find out, hey, you know, my grandparents were actually over in Germany during World War II, and this is what happened to them, or what, you know what I mean? It's like you're cutting off that leg of history that needs to be part of it good or bad. It's important that I think people want to know who they are as they're growing up, and kids get interested, and it's so cool. You know, we have an opportunity as, you know, parents, I'm not a parent, but I'm just saying at this time frame, when kids are growing up, to get them involved in their own family history, to help them get involved and interested in history as a whole, and how the world works. And it starts with knowing your family, good and bad, understanding, you know, what everybody went through at certain times. How did they overcome obstacles? Right now with COVID, if we're going to look back in our days at families and how we handled COVID, did we have family Zoom meetings? Did we have Thanksgiving that way? Did you get to talk to your grandparents over Zoom? You know, it's one of the easiest things. I mean, how harmful is that to have a Zoom call, but apparently it's not going to happen for some, huh? Right now. Exactly. Yeah. Well, yeah. Wow. And I feel bad over the holidays, you know, the holidays. Well, the thing is, you can't, when you take actions like that, cutting somebody off from someone they love, when you take actions like that, you can't fix it. They're not going back. Mm-hmm. You really can't fix it. Well, we teach, that's what our organization works on or does is our focus is to teach grandparents to change their behavior because you're not going to change the caregivers' behavior. To change whatever they are doing, if they are stubborn or holding onto their ego, to basically give the dragon what it needs to eat in order to see this child. So, if it's stepping over a boundary, then you learn to stop stepping over that boundary. You've learned to stop giving advice when you're not asked to give advice or your opinion. And you respect the parents' wishes. Yeah, maybe they are walking on eggshells. Who cares? They get to see the child. You do whatever it takes to see that child. So, it's setting aside the ego in order to remain connected to the child. Mm-hmm. And that seems to be what works the best. Of course, there's instances where nothing's going to work and they'll end up in court. And a lot of grandparents win court-ordered visitation that way. But to expect the parents to change. And eventually, I think some of them do forgive and sometimes quicker than others. And I mean, we talk to people every day. So, I've heard a lot of stories. And well, I bet it takes a lot of work. So, do you have another book in your future? I mean, you've done a whole bunch. You've got your own, you know, shelf now with how much you've written. Um, I don't know right now. I'm still promoting this one and marketing this one and getting it out there. And it's hard during COVID because there's no book signings or events or anything. So, it's difficult, although a lot of people are reading now. Yeah, I bet. I think that reading is more. Yeah. And I think it's a comforting something that for, you know, grandparents right now may need it over the holidays. You know, maybe a virtual book signing is- Yeah. Would be something to consider. Like book clubs. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. I haven't thought of that one. I, you know, the messages I want grandparents to know that they have choices and this maybe isn't a good fit for everybody to be donning a wig and baggy clothes and clothes. What color would you wig? I want to know. Come on. What color was the wig? Did you have more than one wig? Well, it's on the cover, actually. Yeah. I think that was the first time I had worn it. Wow. Did you get nervous the first time you did that? Did you get like kind of- Oh, my gosh. Yeah. It was- Yes. I was so scared and especially when I was by myself doing it. That particular, that cover photo, one of my friends, I talked to him into going. He didn't have children yet. It was somebody I worked with and we became friends. So he and I went over to the Balboa Pier and because I heard through the grapevine, there was going to be a field trip. And so they went whale watching Jacob's class. And so I knew what time it was. And so we stood there and watched him get off the boat. And then even then, I was scared. That was the first time I had done it. And we were walking right behind him, like just a foot behind him and the kids were walking and they looked at the arcade and they walked on the pier. And I just remember being so happy just to have been able to see him. And then my friend took that photo of me and then he took photos of me sitting on the grass watching the kids play. And I just- I didn't want to leave. I just wanted to sit there and watch him play. So that was a little easier when I had somebody with me like that. But I mostly did these field trips by myself. And yes, I was scared. I got better at it the more I did. But I still was shaking and sweating and nervous. Probably the easiest ones were sitting at the beach though because the kids were playing in the sand and the water and they weren't looking at any adults. This is the summer camp. And I just sat on a beach chair with their camera and just shot photos of them. It was easy to blend in. Yeah. Wow. You said our favorite word, "Blint." I know. Yes, I know. I know. So Susan, what is your champagne toast to or about? What are you happy about? I am grateful for the opportunity to step into the life of so many grandparents. Yeah, we are too. We're glad about what you're doing. Yeah, I think it's important. We appreciate it. We really do appreciate it. And we're opening the court because you're back on the show and it took so long and it's my fault. It just takes time on these things. But it's, you know, you've written so many books and, you know, delved into different topics but really all about family unity and understanding, you know, individual responsibility who people are. You've delved into some heavy topics and it's not always easy to do to do that. And, but everyone needs to read those heavy topics at some point in their life. So I really appreciate what you've done and you've got a new book out. So we get to have champagne and we wish you a wonderful holiday season and all grandparents and grandchildren out there that they do get to connect and they get their cookies together, even if it's over soon. Thank you. Thank you for the kind words and support and thank you for having me on the show. Thanks for joining us again and enjoy the sunshine. Is it sunny in California today? Of course it is. It's all cold here. It's cold and Pennsylvania. It's cold. It's cold. Our bodies don't know what to do about this. It's a whole other world. I'm like, I'm cold but it's really beautiful and it's really beautiful. So we really can't complain and we got all kinds of cold dogs and cats around us. So we're in a good spot here. But we want to play a song for you. This is a song called Stepping Stones and it's from Kimia Penton. She's a world traveler and amazing singer, songwriter, violinist. It's from her album When the Rain Falls. And the whole album kind of goes through it. It's like a story of life. You know, when you're coming of age and understanding what your parents have taught you and your grandparents over the years. So I wanted to play this song from it, Stepping Stones. And again everyone, keep up with Susan. It's Susan Hoffman. The book is Grand Distance and of course Amazon, all those places just type in Grand Distance. Susan Hoffman, you'll find it online. But also go to their website, grandparentchildconnect.org. And remember Amazon Small's for non-profit. So keep up with that too if you're purchasing online. So here it is, Stepping Stones from Kimia Penton. You can go to kimiapmusic.com and that's the letter P. All right, I got to be clear on that. Sorry, Grand Child Humor. Okay, so thanks so much for joining us Susan. You take care. Thank you. Bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Here it is, Stepping Stones. My first steps were a celebration. Mom and Dad watching me grow. With every orbit of the sun, there's much more I got to know as the season changed and I was fully cool. I was more than me by the lovely soul. Mom and Dad's stories didn't always make sense. They came from a different time, a different day. So the courage that I'm staying on is the examples that they gave. My first stepping stone was a life they left. [Music]
