I don't we don't need to clap or anything. This is just, uh, this is just the future. It feels weird though. It feels wrong. It's like when you wanted to clap in the hotel room and I was like, we're, we're next to each other. It's fine. I think we did anyway. Hello and welcome to the end of the police podcast. My name is Daniel Bader this week on the show. We're talking Pixel nine pro fold with, uh, our, our regular co-host. We'll saddleberg. How are you? I'm good. I was ready to introduce myself when you stepped up. I'm sorry. I had a, I had a special guest to introduce that I wanted to get. I didn't want it to roll over you to get. I'm the non special guest. And then of course we have a special guest, the truly the special guest. Our only, our only listener is now our only guest. So I don't know who's going to hear this, but, uh, Michael Fisher. Welcome back to the show. Uh, thank you. I make it a policy of not listening to episodes on which I've guessed it. So I don't know. I can't answer your question, but, uh, someone out there will enjoy it. At one person who reviews pod tech podcasts on Twitter. I don't know that guy sucks, by the way. No. Well, this is now, now we're down to zero. Now we're down to no listener since, um, uh, I mean, this isn't an aside, but pocket casts allows you to review and, or rate podcasts now. That's all well and good, but you can't actually leave a review. You can just leave a rating on a podcast and I don't think that's good enough. I think we need an actual alternative to Apple podcasts for leaving ratings on podcast because I feel like it's just easy to game the system with a rating. Whereas with a proper review, like you can, you get some context. Nobody reviews Android podcasts on Apple podcasts. It's just like a, this is not a thing. Yeah. So we've got to make this happen. Anyway, that's a, that's. I'm sorry. I, I, I agree with you, Daniel. I'm having difficulty focusing with one of my cats is just use, use the litter box and is, is celebrating by destroying the apartment. So, uh, any, any sounds of loud crashes or, or growls, uh, behind me, please ignore. I am safe for the moment. That sounds like a big cat. He's got a links in your apartment. Yeah. Yeah, he's a long boy for sure. All right. Well, we're going to, we're going to talk primarily about the Pixel nine pro fold this week. The embargo lifted today as we're recording June, June, my God. It's definitely not June anymore folks. It would be, um, the summer is over. My kid went to school today. It's been a very emotional day. So I'm living in denial. But, uh, the embargo lifted today won PM Eastern, September 3rd. So both of you have your thoughts. Michael, by the time this is published, you may have a video. You may not. Both of you have the phone. Uh, you've had the phone for five or six days. Not enough time. Not enough time, which is why there are very few reviews out right now. Yeah, I feel like this is the most, uh, just like looking around, because it's only been an hour since the embargo lifted and like looking around. I was like, Oh, like truly no one published a review this week. All just like silently agreed. I'm so pleased to hear that because I was going to advocate. I was never actually going to do this, but, but at the risk of getting into inside baseball too early, I was going to try and round up some people to be like, Hey, um, are you guys also kind of annoyed at the fact that Google is the one and only company that sets embargoes consistently immediately following a weekend? In this case, following a holiday weekend, a long weekend. Uh, yeah, I'm not, I'm just not going to do it. Like even if I had gotten the device on time, which I didn't, I got it more than a day late, you know, I'm too old for this. And I don't think that, that it's enough time as to cheerpoint will to like actually for me anyway, to deliver a solid recommendation or not. So I'm, I'm happy to wait. Even a day late, like, like the earliest that as far as I know, people got these phones was last Wednesday and it is Tuesday. Like it's just, you know, it's hard enough when it's like a small upgrade compared to like last year's phone, but like this is like a total pre invention of the phone. We spent like an hour and a half talking about a year ago. And there's a lot to process about this that I think we had already kind of talked about not doing this. Like after a holiday weekend and the fact that it showed up on like Wednesday afternoon for me was like, definitely locked it up. Like there's no way I can have a full review of this ready to go for Tuesday. Yeah. Just not happening, which is why it's great that embargoes are, are embargoes and not deadlines. I think that there's often a confusion about that. It's like, it's a, it's a competitive deadline. If you are, if you find yourself in, in need of, of competing with other publications or who are going to go at, at Lyft, but yeah. OK, so we can't say definitively this is a buyer or not by yet. I think it's too early. We'll probably end up talking about it next week. But what I wanted to do today was to unpack the product in so far as as you've kind of spent some time with it, come to early conclusions, feelings about it. And then go a bit wider later on in the show and just talk about the foldable as an ostensible replacement for the traditional smartphone form factor, what it's sort of settled into. I think Michael, you are one of the most vocal advocates of the form factor. I'm sure you hear about it far more than we do. From people advocating for or against it, right? Being a spokesperson of a particular thing, you get an inundation of opinion, right? So that's how I'd like to sort of structure the show a little bit. Let's talk first, just about the product. So we talked a little bit at the event, Michael, but give us your first impressions of this as you saw it back at the May by Google events. And since then, like, how was that evolved, if at all, right? Your initial impression was was X. Has that changed since you, since you received it or has it been fairly consistent? That's actually a really good question because when I saw it, and I think this was almost a universal opinion shared across all of us, like there was so much evolution compared to the first generation, that that's almost all I could focus on. I was like, Oh my God, look at how many things they changed. Let's try and take apart why they made those changes and whether or not I like them. And since in the intervening time, like since that disparity focus has sort of evaporated, I've found myself no less satisfied with the end product, but much less able to become excited by it in a way that is not typical of a lot of foldables, because a lot of foldables still excite me. You know, I think whether or not you agree with Google's decision to go with this much more common form factor that better resembles a one plus or Samsung. It kind of completes the plateau-ification of foldable design that we've been seeing. Like the fun quirky passport style Surface Duo Oppo thing is no more. I think that's a little bit sad. That category that lived between flip phones and books type foldables is just, I don't know if anyone will build another one in there. And I think that's a little bit frustrating because that first gen pixel fold for all its compromises was quite a special thing in comparison. And the new pixel while it's superior in every objective way feels less special. And I don't know, you know, I've lost touch with whether or not that will matter at all to normal people, but that's how I feel about it at the moment. Novelty is obviously an important part of any new form factor. But as the form factor has matured and particularly the way that companies have started to differentiate themselves in their implementation of what we consider foldable software. Where do Google's decisions end up for you? Because I'm getting the feeling based on that initial salvo is that you feel like Samsung or OnePlus or even some of the Chinese brands that over stuff their software with features. That's ideally what you want out of a foldable because it's pure potential. You have more screen real estate. And again, like, correct me if I'm putting words in your mouth, but that's the impression I get is that Google's more restrained take on Android. Its minimal take on Android is actually doing it a disservice when it comes to creating a foldable software experience, particularly when the phone is open. I think that's a good point to make, but it is not a point that I would make. I tend to like a little bit of sensible restraint when the boundaries of utility have been reached. And I think we've found what those boundaries are. I think unless you're a financial analyst or something like Samsung's implementation of multitasking where you can run four apps at once and then a fifth over the top of all of them. It's just like kind of absurd. And certainly cramming in a bunch of AI features as Samsung has done recently, doesn't really add a lot of value that's specific to foldables either. So I actually know I don't have a problem with Google's implementation of its pixel software, which is excellent on this foldable. I don't know that there needs to be much more innovation than we've seen with the possible exception of maybe one plus's implementation of multitasking like that kind of open canvas thing. I'd like to see more of that in general. But I can't fault Google for not just throwing in some stuff that they will have to support for years that very few people will utilize. I think I've always maintained that a book type foldable when you open it up, this like there's a thought trap, there's a there's a gully to be that a lot of people fall into. It's like, but so many apps aren't optimized for it. And like true. And then when I look at my usage, I'm like, well, what am I doing? I'm in the browser. I'm in Chrome. I'm in YouTube. I'm in docs or I'm multitasking between threads and Instagram and rotting my brain. Like, I don't need many more apps to be optimized for this form factor because the bulk of the time I spend in apps is well serviced by an 8-inch screen. Which by the way, is dope as hell. I mean, I just, I love how big the screen is. Okay, if you're in. So just because we didn't mention at the beginning, this is the first show that we've recorded and will put on YouTube and cut for social. So that's why Michael is in such a good mood because he just loves being on video podcasts. But the very height of the medium. We did want to have a special guest on to kind of be the launchpad of our video podcast because apparently that's what you got to do to win these days on the social media network. Anyway, let me just stay with that track for a second, Michael. So what is it about this that is not exciting to you then? Is it this product, or is it the fact that this represents sort of that plateau-ification, as you said, of the foldable form factor? Yeah, it's not the product, it's what it represents. Because I think the product is very good. There are very few objective complaints I have about the execution. It is what it says about the category as a whole. It's like that phase that these five years, this roller coaster ride, has settled into an end. We've reached a logical end point of design, at least for the time being, of flips and folds, and any time that happens and you've been doing this for as long as we have, I think that's a little sad. Okay, Will, let's get your first impressions. I'll ask you the same thing, right? Have your thoughts of the phone change since the first time you saw it a few weeks ago, to now you've had it in hand a few days. Do you think that evolution will impact kind of your final thoughts on the product? No, I mean, my first impressions were that they had fixed a lot of my complaints around the original Pixel Fold, which was a phone I did not like very much, if at all, to be honest. And every time we've gone back and revisited it, I've been like, no, I still don't particularly like this. I mean, not to echo too much of Michael, but they did it by making it essentially a one plus open, which I wrote about months ago at this point. Whenever the first like real leak of this phone happened and I was like, it's kind of a bummer that like Google is already throwing in the towel and being like, this is just how foldable it should be. They should just be like a normal smartphone on the outside and then a bigger screen on the inside. And there's no room for creativity in that. And it makes it really useful, right? Like there has never been a moment using this phone over the last week or so, where I've been like, ugh, like the keyboard is uncomfortable to type on on the front screen, or whatever, right? Like, I think it makes it more usable to like someone who is buying this, but I do think that it makes it less exciting, especially because it's like, it's not even like the first time we've seen this form factor. It is very one plus open. It is like, if you added a little more left side bezel to the one plus open, which is how it goes from a 7.8 inch screen to an eight inch screen on the inside. That's like, otherwise it's like kind of like, it's thinner, which is nice. But like, it's so similar to that phone that I've used, that is the foldable. I have used the most over the last year, right, since since the open came out. It is kind of interesting to go from like that software experience to like this more paired down one where you have to be a little bit more, I don't know, like it does just become I'm in docs, I'm in the internet browser, I'm in YouTube when you're using the inner display with like a few different ways to like customize that. But even then like, you were so limited to just two apps side by side that like, I'm glad they added app pairs, but it does become one of those things where it's like, the software experience to me does feel a little bit limited and I'll have something live on the website later today as we record this about it. But like, I do feel restricted by the fact that I have to like, only have these two apps that can only be side by side, they can't kind of extend off the side of the screen the way open canvas does. And I can throw two apps, if I want to like next to each other that don't make any sense, but then like, I'm really just using the one app and then just keeping something open next to it because I have that screen space, it doesn't make a lot of sense. I have a question about like, in some way was the first generation pixel fold a little bit more exciting or not more exciting, but at least maybe more useful in as an on ramp into the world of foldables because you didn't always want to do things on this on this wide cover display, like it was, it's reachable, had a lot of good things to it, but it was kind of weird. So you found yourself opening it more often in the same way you do with the Galaxy Fold because it's too tall and narrow. So you found more excuses to get inside the thing and use that main display and therefore unlock a lot of its capabilities. Whereas Google did such a good job on nine pro fold making this basically a pixel nine, the cover screen, that I feel like I don't, I open this maybe 30% less often to do other ones. And then I'm sitting there being like, well, why did I even why do I even have this? It's weird. And I'm the last person to say that I'm I've never ever said like, give me a normal phone, but this feels like using a normal phone. And then you have to like remind yourself, Oh, there's a tablet inside here, which is great. I don't mean to characterize that as like a great feature that I'm saying is, is a is a negative. It's not what I mean, but it's just a shift, right? It's a change. Yeah. It does make me kind of become that person who's like, okay, now I wish there were more apps optimized for the screen though. And part of the problem is that this is like almost a one by one screen. So like some apps like pocket casts, honestly, like are a little janky in like, if you open the like now playing section and pocket cast thinks you're in landscape mode, stuff like that, right? Where it's like, it is a little weird with the aspect ratio. And so games especially are like the thing where I was like, I there have been a couple of, I've been wanting to play the mobile port of Dragon Quest five. Let me buy that even though it's $15 because it's a Square Enix game. See how that runs on the on the inner display. It doesn't really like it's walked to like a you need a smartphone display for it. So like the only thing you can do is push it off to the side or whatever. Otherwise there are like controls that you just can't touch like the scalings all off. It's the same like I don't even play a lot of games, but like just the couple that I've tried. I do find it frustrating to run into these roadblocks with a device that the whole point is you have this big screen in your pocket. And then it's like, oh, but not that though. You can't do that. And while I don't have that problem as often or as severely as you, I will say that that's another reason that I'm sad to Google abandoned the ultra wide pixel fold one because and I was I think I was the only person making this point. So I don't know that and I have nothing to back it up factually, but it seemed like an implicit urging by Google to developers to be like, hey, widescreens are important. Please make Android tablet apps. And I don't think that really happened again. It did not. No, I'm with you. Like, even down to like the thing I want to do the most with this is have like a relatively normal smartphone on the front and then open it up and have a really good way to watch videos on a plane or something. And like, this is okay for that. It is a bigger display than what you could get on a normal smartphone. But like, because we moved to the one plus open style of like, it's basically a square. It is a little wider if you turn it on its side, but not by that much. Like, you end up with this experience where you always feel a little bit like, okay, but like, if I had just like an actual tablet, this would be a much larger screen, right? Which is something that the original pixel fold managed a little bit better just by opening landscape by default. It wasn't perfect, but like, it was better for video. I agree that that that is true when you're treating it like a tablet, but your your example of an airplane is perfect because like, what you actually want to do is is do the tabletop thing and have it stand itself up. Like, I genuinely feel real sympathy for all the normals out there who I see like balancing their iPhone on a coffee cup to watch something or take a photo. I'm like, you nerds, you need a hinge. That's what you need. And we have a hinge will rejoice. We do have a hinge. You can also buy like a $15 back of seat plane holder that that is cheaper than a foldable, but we do have a hinge. That is true. Okay, I want to I want to I want to I want to interrupt for a second. Yeah. First, I I get this phone tomorrow. It's on a UPS truck somewhere in Toronto. Very sad about that. I couldn't share in this in this moment with both, but but I think as somebody who's used most other foldables, I've done enough total immersion into the form factor now that I feel confident saying, compromise is inherent in it. There's a 60 plus percent increase in cost between the pixel nine pro fold and the pixel nine pro excel, right? It's just it's a it's an expensive phone. You're supposed to feel like you're getting something for that increase, right? You're supposed to feel like the value inherent in buying an expensive foldable. And Michael, you talked about this with Rick, right? Why haven't foldables dropped in price since they launched five years ago. And, you know, his non answer was pretty frustrating because basically all he said was, we're putting the best technology in here. Costs are going up. There's no way that we can drop the costs of these products without sacrificing some sort of the functionality. But I disagree with that, obviously, I think there's easily a way to do it. But I think inherent in the form factor is compromise, right? The aspect ratio is probably the biggest. The thickness of the total package is the other one. And, you know, starting with the aspect ratio, Google had the choice when it made the pixel fold last year to force developers in a subsequent version of Android to adhere to a better landscape experience. And they just didn't, right? Google has never put its foot down when it comes to Android development the way that that Apple has. And as a result, we are left a year later, kind of with this sunken feeling of realizing that developers are not going to create bespoke experiences for a very small population, right? So Google, instead of forcing their hand or making it so that Android will better adapt to the landscape experience has gone the other way under Rick and said, okay, well, if we can't force the developers, at least we're going to give our users the best vertical app experience. But that, again, does not account for the awkward near-square aspect ratio of the big screen, right? And you're saying you use the inner display 30% less. You still are going to open this device and not always know what it's good for, right? What is the inner display good for if not for all the things that Will said, right? Gaming, media, all of the above. I had a conversation. I had a back and forth over text for genuinely like 35 minutes between myself and Ben shown at nine to five, like essentially arguing this entire conversation on Friday, I think, or Thursday, I don't remember when we had it. And I came down to the point that these are always going to be like niche products because the best use cases you're going to find, the best things you experience that you're like, okay, this is when foldables clicked for me is always going to be, they're going to be niche examples that fit to you specifically. So like, the best thing I've done with this phone so far, and this is true, is Sunday night, I had my fantasy football draft, and I had that going on the right side of the screen, and I had a bunch of notes and cheat sheets on the left side of the screen. And according to Yahoo Fantasy, I, my draft was an A plus and I'm the favorite to win this year, which I've never had before. So I think I owe that to Google, I guess, and foldables is a product category. But I'm not about to tell people to run out and buy this because they can make money in their fantasy football drafts, or pools, I should say. And like, I think they're always going to be like that, where it's like, I really enjoyed using it this, putting aside the fact that like, the obvious of like video or web browsing, like putting those aside, I think basically everything else is going to be kind of niche specific use cases like that with a foldable. And until Apple comes around and does do the thing you're talking about, Daniel, which is if and when they make a foldable, they will put their foot down and be like, you have to support this aspect ratio, and 90 whatever percent of developers will like, big developers will do it, right? Like Instagram will still not, I guess, but like everyone else, although they do have a foldable UI. So maybe I'm being unfair. But like, I think they will do that, and it will be frustrating from an Android perspective to be like, why is Google not just putting their foot down and like, I mean, I guess they can't, I guess is the answer. I'm absolutely can arguing with my, well, yeah, go ahead. They can, and they should, but I, but I also think we've heard this for five years now. I mean, Android 12 L existed for this form factor. And then they're like, actually, we're kidding. Android 13 is for this form factor. And then they're like, no, actually, we're joking. Android 14 is the real one where developers are going to start investing. And then they're like, actually, we're just not going to mention foldables in Android 15. And I think that has been sort of the through line for all non-traditional form factors across Android forever, right? Everything Michael has ever loved. I don't know what happened to you as a child, Michael, that made you love all the things that Google just decides to neglect. I really want to psychoanalyze you here for a moment. If you got the time, yeah, I'm very expensive. That's the problem. But I do, I do take Canadian dollars. So Mike, Mike, work out on your favor. But I do like, it's interesting, right? Like we, we started having the same conversations about Android tablets back in 2011 with the, with Honeycoil Android tablet. Um, Android Wear when it debuted in 2015, same conversation, right? We've had, since 2019, hoping praying that Google would put its foot down when it comes to adherence. But it feels like that is just going to take one developer at a time caring about this thing. And then it's going to take one person, as you said, will buying the foldable having that one moment where it's like, Oh, I get it. We had my daughter's birthday party this past weekend. And I brought my motor razor plus. And I was like, Oh, I have an idea. I'm going to do a time lapse of this why, like they were, it was like an art studio. So I put it up in the corner of the room. And I framed the time lapse with the preview cam. And I just, it was like the best. And I showed it to everybody afterwards. And I was like, this is a thing that you could only do on a foldable. Right. And it was incredible. And it was like, not only was the, was the functionality super intuitive and easy to use, but the result was far better than any time lapse I could have taken with a regular phone, because I could adjust it as the party went on without disrupting it. And I've had a few of those experiences over the years, but I'm no foldable stand the way that you are, Michael. And I wonder what were those experiences for you that kind of got you to this point where you daily drive a flip or a book foldable? Yeah. So the flip is it is a totally different conversation, just because like the use cases, the implementation, everything is different about it. Used opened this episode, though, with a by evoking the old pro moniker for a lot of phones, right, where it's like, are these, you know, these were meant to be the new pro phones? And are they? And I really think they are. Because a month after I got the Galaxy Fold in 2020, I ended up in a hospital bed really unexpectedly for like four days. And I had the fold with me. So I did not miss the iPad. I couldn't pick up the Kindle. I couldn't pick up on the way to the hospital. I had the phone did it all. And I was like, Oh, wow. And then when I started traveling on an aircraft all the time, as I still do, people would be walking down the aisle way and would stop and be like, Oh my God, what is that? Like, yeah, this is my phone, but it's also a tablet. So like, this is the only thing I need for eight hours across the Atlantic or whatever. And it does go back to this thing. I really think that the focus on apps is a good conversation to have from a Google strategy perspective from an Android historical perspective. Yes. But when you're a real user and you have a Kindle in your pocket that now fits in your pocket without being a huge brick, when you can open a PDF attachment in an email, it looks like dog shit on iPhone or a Pixel nine because it's a portrait screen. Wow, you can see that for real. Like you can browse real websites, go to the desktop view, ever note, you know, it's multiple columns and like doing stuff in video calls, you decide by such shot list and email, it's like spreadsheets. God bless them. We hate spreadsheets in this house, but you know, they look great on a big old square screen. Like, there are so many ways having a giant screen in your pocket is beneficial that I feel like the only reason the category continues to be at like 1.5% adoption rate is that this thing is $1,800 five years later. If it weren't, it were $1,300. We wouldn't be having this conversation. The whole tone. I mean, I, in this flies rate in the face of what you just said about not having to grab devices at the door headed to the hospital or whatever. But like, I think part of the problem is that right now you can go buy a Pixel nine pro, which I think is a pretty great phone. And you can buy just the iPad, like the 10th gen iPad or whatever. And that you're at that $1,300, $1,350 dollar price that you just said, make sure that you have a messenger bag with you, make sure that you do stop home and get it. I mean, yes, but like, you don't carry it all the time. Yes, it's worth it. Absolutely. 100% dancing those products and users. Yes. To normal people. It's worth $500. That's where I think it cover the course of a year. Yes. I it's like, I there's no way. I just don't never be deconverted about this. Like, I'm not trying to. I don't even disagree with the crazy in a in this portable in this tiny package. 100%. I don't disagree with you. But I'm thinking of it from like, I just know that is how normal people think of it is is is it to be honest, they're not thinking about having to go out and spend $1,300 right now. They're thinking about the fact that they bought an iPad three years ago. And so they already have that thing. They need a new phone. Why are they spending $1,800 so that they can have a tablet? I already have a tablet. It's fine. Whatever. Increasingly hypothetical normal person is also going into a carrier store and paying nothing. They're paying something over the course of two years for this and they're going to trade in after a year for something else. Like, I mean, sure, I don't know. I I cannot speak to normal people. I don't that we do. We probably should. So like, I just I take your point. I agree that they're too too damn expensive still. I wish I had gotten a better answer out of Rick, but like, that's the the factor that is the thing holding it back. Like, I think that end messaging because no one has ever managed to succinctly communicate this very simple idea of like big screen goes in pocket, comes out of pocket, big screen or small screen. You choose. Hey, yeah, I think the fact that we are still having the conversation about the tablet form factor and the the usefulness of the tablet form factor a decade 15 years long after that debuted is why so few people have purchased book foldables. And I wonder if there's just something to be said for this dilution of purpose and and people wanting to just admit that like, it's much harder to work on a big screen tablet or phone than the companies that make the phones and the software that run on the phones want you to believe. So I agree with you, Michael, every time I use a foldable and I used an open for a couple of months and I loved it, but I also didn't love it in many ways. And I thought it was a bit chunky and a bit heavy and not the experience that I ideally want out of a smartphone. Plus I have kids blah, blah, blah, like this is another thing too that we don't really talk about around foldables. The fact that it is IPX8 is great now, but it's not IP68 and it's certainly not easy to put a case on it and just like take for granted that it's going to be unharmed when your kid throws it across the room. But that's a separate conversation. But I also think the ability to read a book, wonderful ability to have a two column book inside Kindle without having to turn the thing 90 degrees. Why is that still a thing in 2024? Right? Like all of these and I think that's what I keep coming. Sorry to interrupt you, but that was one of the things I was going to say. Oh my god, really? Yeah. I take everything I said. But I also just think like the thing that we talk about Will and I have talked about this countless times on the show, Android software quality still pales in many respects to iOS software quality. And then you add that unknown factor of how an app will work on a tablet inside a foldable. That's what I hate when I talk about this to a normal person. It's like, I think you should get this because the hardware is incredible. But I also don't want somebody sinking $1,800 to have an experience where they're going, why is my app working this way? Because it didn't work this way on my phone when I had that. Or why is the experience between the front display and the inner display so different? And what can I do to fix it? And then you dive down these rabbit holes. And I think that's what I keep getting hung up on is and that's why I love the Pixel 9 Pro so much because this experience of Android has never been better. I hate to do this. But like, we're coming out this diametrically opposed because like, I'm like, okay, if I open pocketcast and it's a weird layout on the cover, I'm like, well, oh crap, what can I do now? I didn't bring up candy bar like, oh wait, no, I have one on the cover. Like you run that app outside. Like, would it be great to have those things consistent? Yes, it would. But that is just like, that is inherent to the Android ecosystem, right? We have had to design for many, many different screen types over the years. So it's like, does the utility of having both screen types counteract that occasional inconvenience and inconsistency? And I think it would for a lot more people, again, if the price for still. You know what it is? It's, I love having both of these screens and I want to just be able to use them whenever I want without having to think about which one I'm using in which app. That's what it is. It's just like, I want to just be like, oh, I already had the phone open. I can go like, play pocketcast or whatever without being like, oh, this looks bad versus like, I'm going to use pocketcast. Let me close the phone because I know it runs better on the cover screen. I think it really just comes down to like, I don't want to think about what I was just doing. I want to do the next thing I'm going to do on my phone without having to be like, this doesn't look good or this would look better on the front screen or vice versa. It's so funny is like, let's like, if you were to run this episode, the audio of this episode and just stack it on top of like a discussion of the Galaxy Note 2 in 2012. I know. I know many things would we be saying like, like, it's the age old thing of like, Android do more, but kind of, I phone nice clean. Oh, I disagree. I disagree because back in 2012, when we talked about the full, the, the Galaxy Note 2, yeah, Android did nothing well. It was all jank. It was all cognitive load, cognitive overload and DIY, right? It was, if you want Android to work for you, you had to work for Android. Now I'm at the point where I don't think about Android any differently than iOS because it just works well, right? I can, I can quibble about the fact that like the day one app is not as pretty on Android as it is on iOS or the fact that like, my favorite library app, Libby, gets updated on iOS every week and hasn't been updated on Android since April. I can quibble about that, but the functionality, the core functionality of both of those apps is good and they're stable and they work. Even apps like my kids' daycare app, where I definitely did not think that it would be on par because all these small developers do not give a shit about Android. And yet today, I can maybe count on three hands, three hands, three fingers or three hands, you know, whatever, the number of apps that have major quality differences. The one thing that I will say is like, and this is a tiny, tiny thing, but like Hades did not come out for Android when it came out for iOS through the Netflix game store. And like, that's a tiny little exception to the rule. I don't know. I think that's a different episode because I have had that very different experience. Like every time I hang out with my iPhone wielding friends and they're like, yeah, did you use flighty to track that? Did you notice that gate change? Like, I don't have that on Android. They're like, oh, yeah, use this app to make a reservation. I'm like, oh, yeah, Rezi doesn't make an Android app. That golf is increasing and it's getting worse. And it's one of the one of the bad things. I think that that parody is diminishing, which is why every time people are like, do you think Apple's going to make a foldable? I say, I freaking, I hope so, because it'll solve the one of the issues you just called out, which is developer disinterest in making these these kind of dynamic apps. At least it won't be the such an alien lift. It won't be such a like, I got to do it for Google and then I'm going to sell 10 copies of this app. I don't know. I think it'll demystify it. It'll deep. I think indie developers are still very, very much focused on iOS paid apps by indie developers. That's still very much owned by the other side. But if you are a company creating an app that's supposed to be cross platform, Android is part of your pipeline, right? It has to be. Or you make a decent web app that will work on Android. That is like Claude, for instance, when Claude by anthropic, right? That Android app launched a few months later, but it had a really good web app that worked on Android since day one. As they keep iterating on the Android version, the web app is still kind of at parity. It's not a perfect experience. But like, I don't use a single app that I can point to. And I guess maybe that's because I don't really seek out the latest startup apps anymore. I find a way to make a work on both platforms because I go between them so often. But you're right. I mean, obviously indie developers still care more about iOS. But I mean, Rezi is one of the apps I was just talking about, which is owned by American Express. They are not a little startup. They intentionally torpedoed their Android app when they were acquired. So it's like, but again, I can express some slack, Michael, but at least you could do their point for one of the biggest financial institutions. I mean, the the the Venn diagram between MX owners and iPhone owners is basically 100%. So other big issue. Yeah, right, right, right. Yeah. We've made this into it and Apple versus Android podcast. But no, I don't mean to. I just think it's it's instructive to look at it because the tablet experience on a foldable is like the extreme end of that, you know, user experience, right? And I don't think it's a bad idea to see it from that perspective. Because I think it kind of it flows back to that initial conversation I wanted to have, right? This is a phone first. It's Google's best idea of a foldable. And therefore it's Google's one of Google's best phones ever because clearly the Pixel nine series is so good in so many ways. However, when Google builds limitations into its own products by virtue of the software that even if it's siloed and firewall, etc, etc, that it makes you know that other companies like Samsung and OnePlus are having to sort of go it alone in many respects. And the whole idea of Google coming out with this platonic ideal foldable design is that developers are going to take notice because for better or worse, pixels are still references, right? So where does that leave us in terms of an overall user experience? So let's like bring this back as a product that one can buy this week. What are your kind of takeaways from it? I'll start with you, Will. Like, is this a phone? How's the camera? How's the how's the experience of using it versus other foldables that you've tried? It's about as good as the open and like it's it's so weird because like the one plus flavor of Android specifically on the open is so different from what Google is trying to do here. But like this is essentially what I think we wanted from the original pixel fold, but like in a in a better piece of hardware that does not overheat. It's not like a really poor quality display, but either of them, but like specifically the main inner display is like really nice. I will be curious to know what Michael thinks of the camera because I have not taken a ton of photos yet, but like I have not been super impressed outside of like well lit shots with the primary lens, but like the second it's either like darker or like I'm using the 5x lens, which it like does not want to swap to a lot of the time. I have like of the 5x. It's not like the Pixel 9 Pro where pretty much every time I took a telephoto shot, it was using the telephoto lens properly. You'll look back and be like, oh, it was just like digital zoom on the on the primary lens. Oh, that's weird. It's not a bad camera. I mean, I just assume that it's deciding that it's it needs the extra extra. Yeah, the sensor is so small that it needs it like thinks that the primary sensor will give you a better shot. Exactly. I don't think it's a bad camera, but I'm like, I'm not blown away in the way that like I feel like every third shot I took with the 9 Pro, which isn't even like that different of a camera from last years, but like that's just how long it's been since I've just used a pixel flagship because this year's been crazy that like every third shot, I was like, ah, man, this is a good shot. Look at me taking good photos. And then like with this one, I'm back to being like, that's an okay shot. There are some issues with it and some things I don't like Maddie and I had a bonfire last night and I like took a photo. I took I was only going to take one photo of it. And then I took a bunch of photos of it trying to get a good photo of it. And I couldn't. It was really sad with like the balance between the light of the fire and the darkness around it. It did not know what to do with it. But I mean, otherwise, I don't know, like I enjoy using it. I'm like, I don't know if I'll stick with it because I do love the 9 Pro so much. And I think it's like such a good sized device and it's significantly lighter. But like basically every complaint that like Michael and I last year on this podcast like shot back and forth with each other, either agreeing or disagreeing on certain things like they have addressed it. And it is such a phenomenally better phone in my opinion that I like I would have a hard time telling a pixel fold owner to not upgrade because I think it's like it is the three or four generation gap that you would be looking for for an upgrade. Like it this is not a Samsung story of like, great news guys. We got rid of the gap. We'll see you next year for another iterative upgrade. Like it is a massive leap from being like, in my opinion, in last place in the foldable race to a front runner. And I think Samsung has become the also ran in this case. But yeah, I like this phone quite a bit. Michael, what do you what do you think of the other aspects like the camera speakers, battery life, etc. So I think the camera is the most complicated one to discuss. I've actually been looking at all the shots I've taken over the past four days or whatever with this and like it's so hard because from a strategy perspective, I think I'm I'm disappointed that Google has pivoted to this kind of like this era of AI toys. And that's how we're going to define our camera now. You can add yourself to a group shot and you can change the sky color and do all this kind of stuff and you know, make make this building out of pencils. Okay, sure, here you go. But like, in the wake of that and kill democracy in the process, right? Well, there's that. Yeah. But like, this is not helped by the fact that I've just come from reviewing the Xiaomi mix flip and the relevant part of that is that that has a like a branded camera assembly and like I've offered a lot of film emulation and stuff like that. And like, so I went from this camera with so much personality like it or not, you know, call it a gimmick. Sure, whatever, it's a fun gimmick. You could take photos and you really like could convey something with the way you took that photo to come to the pixel, which is like has always been great at so much stuff. But mostly has rested on its success in like HDR and kind of shutter speed. And I was talking to Hayato Hughes from the other day about this. And he reminded me that sterile is a good word to describe the output from the pixel's camera. And I think that like, I have to snapseed these to death to like make them say anything in terms, you know, totally. And maybe that's because I'm not as good a photographer. But like, I just wish that, you know, I think Google lost something when when it stopped focusing on like what what impressionistic painters are we trying to emulate with this color science and move to like, how many images of Barney the dinosaur on fire can we put next to the Empire State Building? It's like, you know, for the answers for. Okay, well, it depends on which screen you're viewing them on to be honest. And that's right. Another reason you want that big inner screen. And while I'm complaining, I will say, I think it's just insane to charge $1,800 and not put your best cameras on this thing. And they're their whole excuses. Yeah, well, look, we needed to make it thin. And you know, foldables and physical constraints, I'm like, yeah, I do. I also know that you guys put a big old camera module on there anyway. So it was possible. You just didn't do it. And I think they've relied on a lot on the processing to make up for those hardware deficiencies and from what I've seen that they don't really do it. It's better than last year's for sure. But then you again, you have to lean in the AI stuffs like, well, use zoom in hats. Well, I have it doesn't really, it tries to make up a face on someone that doesn't really exist. It's like, so that's a bit of a bummer. That said, I've taken wonderful photos with this. It has one of the best zooms on a foldable, which is great. So a lot of them compromise on that. We have true 5x optical zoom. I've pushed it into 20 and gotten usable, great, great stuff. So, you know, and given enough light, but that's always the, it's always the thing. So like, and also because it's versatile, it's not like a flip phone, Daniel, where you can do time lapse like you were saying, I think to get to true foldable insanity, what you got to do is put a big camera bump on there. So you get the proper optics, but then you also got to add a screen to the back. So I think there's, there's a way to make these even more absurd, but you can still pose it on a tabletop, take the shots you need, get shots and time lapses, the things you otherwise wouldn't be able to get without a dumb accessory. So I love that that's the Michael Fisher endgame for foldables. It's like add a third screen on the back. Absolutely. How can you make me happy? Well, try this. That didn't work out. Try some more. To your point, Michael, I, as much as I did enjoy the photos that I took with the Pixel 9 Pro specifically, but like, you're right, that phone, and I had this thought while I was reviewing it, that phone is like allergic to contrast. It wants everything to be so bright. And I'm like, and to be honest, this is like Google's whole thing in general, because that's also my problem with video boost is every time they demo video boost, they're like, don't worry guys, all those shadows look how much brighter they are. And I'm like, but it looked, it kind of looked better before kind of right. I think I've told this before, but like when they first demoed video boost at the Pixel 8 announcement, Taylor Kearns and I were sitting next to each other, and we like both shot up and like looked at each other to be like, that looks worse, right? Like we both had the thought of like, like that definitely doesn't look, it was like a nighttime shot in like Tokyo or something. And it was like, all of the character in the video was like gone. And I was like, doesn't look good guys. Everyone pay attention. You see all the digital noise that's hidden by the contrast in the in the in the raw shot? What if we increase the brightness by 500%? Yeah, that's what they're kind of still doing. And it's a bummer because we know Google possesses the imagination necessary to do things. I had such a good time with long exposure, this on the on the fold. It's on a new feature. It's several years old at this point, but like car motion streaks, boat motion streaks, like putting my face in the middle of a frame and having it be the only thing not moving like cool artsy stuff. And that was from an era where we were still deciding that you would capture an image and manipulate it using stuff that's already there, rather than just dropping stuff onto the image wholesale that never existed. So bummer, but overall, you know, a very good camera for a photo, I think probably, I want to say that it's not the best because I feel like OnePlus still brings character and also think one plus. Yeah, I fully agree with you that like, if you told me I have to pick one, I think I'd be like, I've had more moments from the open where I'm like, I just like the color processing more, like I just think this turned out better. Yep. All right, so we're too early on battery life, I think we're too early on sort of final thoughts. But what I want to get, it's been solid, I will say, like I saw it had any battery issues. I've been I've been a little let down, but yeah, I assume battery is fine because it's still a big enough cell that and like I have no issues with Pixel 9 Pro, which has a smaller battery. Yeah, I guess my question is, this is coming out a couple months after the full six, this is coming out, what, eight months, nine months after the OnePlus open, we've heard sort of rumors that OnePlus is going to release a new open next year. I think the OnePlus open two could be sort of the, the kingmaker, I guess, of this category, but you know, who knows, obviously Xiaomi just came out with a book style foldable, so did honor neither of those will come to North America, but a lot of cool hardware stuff in there. Where is this phone in relation to what exists right now, Michael versus what maybe you were hoping for? Like, is this the best foldable you can buy in North America? Is it the best foldable you can buy in the world? How are you thinking about it in relation to everything else? Should you just buy a OnePlus open right now on sale? No, it's so it's, it's, it's, it's rather difficult to, to encapsulate that at this juncture. I think I need a couple more days, but I will say that I, I tend to recommend the Samsung product to most people who are interested. So that's a small subset as we were talking about the people who are interested in thinking about getting one of those, which one should I get? It's like, because Samsung is on generation six, you have all of these enhancements that are very boring to talk about and, but which taken in the aggregate, make it pretty rock solid product. And if it fails, you know, with the Samsung product, you still have more options than anyone else to repair it. And Samsung has more warranty experience and Google has not managed to shed its terrible customer service reputation. And then for all the things the OnePlus gets right, you know, you still have this dumb thing where even on this new one, this red one they released a couple weeks ago, if you go from a humid room to a cold room, you get condensation under the camera lenses. And it's like, sorry, dudes, that's that, yeah, that may well go away the minute the phone heats up. But that is a, that is an indictment of a lack of attention to detail. But after a year that I'm like, I'll carry it because I'm out, I like the Hasselblad stuff and I'm a phone nerd. But will I recommend it to most folks given that there's a Samsung alternative and most folks don't care about the 5x Hasselblad? So I think fold six is going to be is my go to for most people still. But the pixel really it's between the pixel and the fold six and that I just I just need a little more time figuring out the the total package of the pixel. But I mean, they're very close. But I think post sale support matters a lot for 1800 bucks and you got to have your act together there. I'm just not convinced Google does. Well, what are your thoughts? I mean, you keep saying the one plus open is kind of the best value book foldable you can buy. It's certainly the best value because you can get it for for that basically for that 1300 dollar price that we were just talking about, like it's not hard to get it for that. And even a year old, I still think that the the Snapdragon nature and two is a good chip. I think that the displays in that are good. I think it's it is bulkier than this phone, but it's not too bulky. Like it's it's not, you know, it's not where we were a couple of years ago when it was mostly if not entirely just Samsung in North America. And like I wrote about this today, but like the Galaxy Z Fold 4 was it's not that old and like you hold that phone today and it feels like a fossil. I know I held it today and it felt like a fossil. I agree with Michael that I do find it like kind of difficult to recommend one plus. Yeah, I had not I knew about that fog issue and I knew that it was still appearing on on these red ones. And it's it is a I agree, a lack of attention to detail. Although like, I know people love to hate and including you, Daniel, I believe love to hate on that big camera module and I maintain that I still kind of like it because it gives my finger a place to balance when I'm holding the phone. But regardless, I think yeah, I agree. It just looks like shit. That's all. It might but like I don't I'm not looking at the back of the phone. Sorry, which one looks like shit? Come on. You think the one plus open looks worse than the Pixel? Oh, I think they're better. Sorry. Yeah, I do. Yes, I do. I think absolutely not. I love that camera module on the Pixel. I think it looks love the camera model. I love it. I think it looks elegant. I think it looks minimal. I adore it. No, I just have good taste. I think it's awesome. Honestly, I think they did a really awesome. I will continue using adjectives, a few sub adjectives that I write for a living. I think that's all we're going to talk about with this. I'm going to end with a new segment that I would like to debut on this week's show. It's a thing that I did when I hosted the Android Central podcast back many years ago and I think Michael, you probably remember this. It's got a different name, but it's the same idea. I like to end the show thinking about something happy, something that we like. I stole this from NPR's excellent podcast, pop culture happy hour. What's making us happy? But I'm going to call this time tell us something good because everything needs a good branding. But basically the idea is I want you to tell me something that you enjoyed doing, watching, reading, listening to, or just like something that made you happy over the last week. Will I already know your answer because you talked about it before the show, but please tell us. I have not talked about what my answer would be. What do you think I'm going to answer? I'm looking forward to being surprised. Okay. You'll go first then. What is something good that happened this week? What did you think my answer was? I just think about that. Lost season four that you told us. I did tease in the podcast channel in our Slack that I had re-watched the end of floss season four, purely because when Daniel put this invitation in Google Calendar, he labeled it something like with absolutely no lost talk. And I just love to taunt him. Love to taunt the person who is responsible for my employment. Guys, I saw I saw Twisters. Me too. Same. In 40 X. Okay, I didn't mean to do that. No, I saw Twisters in 40 X, which we have Daniel and I have talked about before because I saw Avatar the Wave Water in 40 X. And I know on that episode, we talked about it. 40 X for people who have not been is one of the theaters with the moving chairs. They splash water in your face. Give you the wind and everything. Lots of wind. Twisters in 40 X went viral and the week it was in theaters before it was pulled for Deadpool because it was a crazy experience and they re-released it and I got tickets to a sold out show. And it was a blast. That movie is so fun in 40 X, it is like an amusement park ride for two hours. It's insane. It makes the movie genuinely better because I had seen it already. And then I saw it again in 40 X and it's great rules. If you can do it, do it. They should re-release it once a year in 40 X, but it'll make so much money. I'd be doing a better movie, a movie better suited for that treatment than Twisters. Truly. I kind of dragged Maddie to it who had previously had absolutely no interest in 40 X. And I was like, okay, because she had not seen the movie. I was like, so the first scene, they're definitely going to tease, I think that will probably give you a good idea of what to expect. From 40 X, just give me a thumbs up at the end of it if you're good to stay or if you feel like you can't handle it, will bail. It's not a big deal. And at the end of that 10-minute opening scene, which is like, spoiler for the opening of Twisters, a scene with multiple characters dying, she was laughing like a maniac and thumbs up. This is great. Having a great time. And just throughout the entire thing, every time a Twister hit in that movie, it's like, here we go again, because it just throws you around. It's great. What a blast. That's my thing for this week. Michael, I wish I knew if we had any 40 X theaters in New York City, I would actually, I would almost go see it again just for that experience. So thank you for the interesting idea. Mine is as different from that as it could possibly be. I am watching not a new thing and not with four dimensions, but an old thing. I have fallen into rewatching the 1989 sitcom, Doogie Hauser MD. Incredible. Which is currently streaming on Disney Plus. I was delighted to find because it's one of the few sitcoms I've actually not rewatched since I was young. And in addition to the theme song, absolutely slapping. If you don't want to rewatch the show, you don't want to pay for Disney Plus, that's fine. Just YouTube, the Doogie Hauser theme song. And if you don't make it your ringtone, because it's the best acoustic file you've ever heard, we cannot understand each other. But it's a lovely show starring Neil Patrick Harris, who's a young teen, who is a child prodigy. So in addition to tangling with all the pressures of growing up a teenager in America, he also has the stresses of being a medical doctor. And it's a lovely time. It has aged very well in most respects, but from a production standpoint, it's just stunning. They put so much effort and money and love into each one of these episodes that it almost makes you forget there isn't a live studio audience. Which when I was a kid, always confused me. I'm like, why am I not being cued to know when to laugh by a large group of people laughing? I don't understand. Is this a dramedy? And I suppose it was. Great times. Doogie Hauser MD, watch it. I haven't thought about that show in a very long time. Highly recommend. All right. All right, mine mine is very specific to this time of year. This is one of my favorite times of year. This is the US Open the week before Labor Day through Labor Day, ending next week, US Open tennis. Yes, this year in particular has been really fun. On the men's side, there are a lot of American men still in the tournament, which is not usual ironically for the US Open. The US men's side has been obviously dominated by the Dal Federer Dokovic forever for the last 20 years, basically, with a few other players in there for good measure. This year, Dokovic is out. Alcaraz is out. It's kind of a free-for-all who might win, which makes it really interesting. And there are three American men. There were four yesterday, but one of them, Tommy Paul, lost. So there are three left. Taylor Fritz, Francis Tiafo, and oh, no, sorry, just the two left, my bad. The other one was Nakashima, but he also lost on Sunday. So there's two US men left. Taylor Fritz, Francis Tiafo, and I am very much hoping that either one of them wins because I really want an American man to win a US Open title at the US Open this year. As a Canadian, I don't know why I'm so patriotic. I was going to say, you're so patriotic for the wrong country. No, it's not. It's just like, I love this. It's a very, I love Wimbledon for its unique Britishness, but there's something about the US Open in the muggy Bronx end of summer kind of vibes. It's just a lot less formal. It's a lot more fun. I just think it's one of my favorite things to watch every year. So if you're not watching it, I highly recommend you look. I had no idea that that's happening like five times. It's happening pretty close to you. Yeah. No idea. So thank you. Also, just before we wrap, shout out to our friend David Kogan, who launched his brand new coffee shop this week, Coffee Check and Green Point. If you're listening to this show, you almost certainly know it exists because the overlapping audience is pretty high. But if you're in the New York, Brooklyn area or New York in general, just go check it out. Someone who's been there most of the past seven days, at least once a day, it is great. And I would say that even if he didn't own the place, it's really wonderful. I'm really excited to go when I'm in New York next. And also special shout out to Jules, who's on the board's rather, directing us live. This is the first time we've done. We changed our production today for the first time. And Jules is here to navigate us all the way from Berlin. So thanks for sticking with us. Jules, we appreciate you. All right, that's the show. Send us feedback. Podcast@endoorplease.com. We love hearing from you. Michael, thank you so much for joining us. Well, thank you as always. I'm looking forward to both of your respective reviews when they come out. And we'll talk a bit more about the fold and other tech news next week. Until then, thanks for listening. iPhone iPhone next week. Oh, that's right. We have Joe Marring of digital trends joining us next week to talk iPhone that I completely forgot. It's already September 3rd. I thought you were done, Michael, huh? Thank you for the reminder that I'm going to hop on a planet in a few days. I avoided EFA, but yeah, I got to go to Cupertino. Well, there are worse places to go. Actually, there aren't that. I mean, the Apple campus aside, like Silicon Valley is just a hellhole that we could talk about for a long, a long time. Anyway, thanks for listening. We'll talk to you very soon. Bye-bye. [Music] Also, by the way, Jules has been like... Oh, I know. I saw them like halfway through all the notes. I missed all of Jules's. Hades Nuts is the best single line I've ever read. So, thank you for that. Um, I don't know what I was saying. I'll get it. We'll get there.
